I am a continuationist because i believe Scripture. However, I do believe one of the biggest problems that the charismatic camp has is they almost never call out all the foolishness and false teachers on the charismatic side.
Thank you my brother in Christ. I left Charismatic church because of what you just said. My biggest problem is that everyone is untouchable because of the " Judge not" and " do not touch the anointed" stunts. I did not hear Dr Brown trying to come up with any solution to this either.
What's also strange is that the cessationists ONLY seem to call out charismatics. Regardless, it's pretty ridiculous, the infighting. Jesus prayed that we would all be one, and whether we like it or not, that means one with those who hold different doctrines. He didn't pray that we would all believe exactly the same.
The enemy always tries to subvert and mimic what The Almighty does. I didn't belong to a charismatic church when I received the Holy Spirit and His gifts. I didn't belong to any church in fact until I was born again. I almost think I should write a book of my own as a regular person with the Holy Spirit to tell of all the miraculous fruit of my pitiful but blessed life to tell people that this is not a question of theology to dismiss, but an affirmation of being born again as scripture plainly says.
Interesting discussion - some of Dr Brown's arguments resonated with me even though I currently hold to a cessionist view. The problem is that even if some of his arguments are based on Scripture, the vast majority of charismania is peddling in false prophesies, false healings and especially false tongues. The latter just does not line up with the description given in Acts 2 and it is practiced in a manner that in contrary to the commandment given in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28. I believe that prophesies on the personal level do still exist, where someone (not a "prophet") transmits a word to an individual which providentially orients them in the right direction. In church, the day before my previous wife died, she wrote something in her Bible that she said she wanted to shout out loud but she was too shy. I was shocked when I read it after her death. What she wrote has been of great comfort to me in my life : there was nothing doctrinally new in what she wrote, but it was pointing me to certain bibilical truths which should rule my life. On the other hand every single person I have seen who self-identifies as a prophet is a false prophet voicing their wishful thinkings. I've also witnessed a miraculous healing where a pastor mentioned "someone" with a knee injury and he then commanded her leg to heal in the name of Jesus. We know that person : she had a really serious knee injury requiring a splint and crutches to walk, but we saw the same person dancing for joy that same evening. I believe that pastor has or had the gift of healing, but it is not something that he could will to happen. He had to be moved by the Holy Spirit to call out the person and the healing. The healing was a message to that specific person on that specific day and it is not a gift where he could decide to walk into a hospital and start healing people. I have also seen other pastors presumptiously commanding healing which did not happen. I think most of these pastors are moved by compassion but they are creating false hope. Regarding the gift of speaking in tongues, I have never heard anything that corresponds to Acts 2. Also in certain congregations it seems that the majority have received this "gift" and nothing else which does not match the description given in 1 Corinthians 12. From what I have heard, I believe it is mostly learnt behaviour that people perform due to peer pressure and encouragement from the pastor. It would say that sometimes it is a genuine expression of emotion or gratitude, which would reflect a fruit of the Holy Spirit (for example joy) but not actual utterances from the Spirit. But why not just shout "Hallelujah!" ? What ever it is, it definitely does not edify the church as spiritual gifts are supposed to. I believe these miraculous spiritual gifts are not sign gifts that identify an apostle or a prophet so in that sense I am cessationist. Also I believe that the gift is not something the person possesses on a permanent basis, but it is something that they are empowered to do or say at a specific moment. Some people may receive the gift and be able to use it on several occasions according to how the Holy Spirit wills it. Perhaps this is the way all the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 are supposed to operate.
I really pursued cessationism as Jim discusses it, but the belief was far too philosophical rather than scriptural. I had to finally admit, uncomfortably, that I was wrong about the nature of what prophesy was/is. It's not easy because of how many wacky people there are, but there's no doubt full scripture support for continuation with caution and a Bible seatbelt. Awesome discussion men.
I agree. Cessationism really appealed to me because of the abuses and lack of evidence I experienced growing up in a very charismatic home/denomination. I’ve concluded however, that the argument for cessationism can’t be made “sola scriptura” as I think think this conversation demonstrates.
@@knicholas8768 that is because you haven't seriously studied the scholarship from cessationists their position is a lot more consistent with the bible than continuists
I am a hypercharasmatic and now am a reformed continuationism but cautious. Great discussion by both of them. I respect both their views. Both me and my sister have similar discussions.
Hey man. What would be the purpose or what fo you mean you are cautious? From a perspective of believing the gifts are available, we are told to desire or covet the gifts of the Spirit. I am careful of who I follow but when it comes to the Spirit of God, that's something I want to faithfully pursue. What do you mean when you say you are cautious? What does that look like exactly?
It seems like there are spiritual cessationists and thoughtful charismatics. These two camps really seem to mostly agree, but their differences are in the finer details.
I was saved in a continuationist church, but recently I've heard some very convincing teaching on cessationism (Apostolic gifts of tongues and prophecy, but miracles/healings definitely are definitely possible), which has convinced me through scripture alone what the Apostolic gifts were for and why they have ceased. Since I have accepted this biblical truth, my relationship with God has become so much sweeter and when I read His word it is so much more precious and potent! I also have come to realize that in my own life, the pentecostal/charismatic pastors I have had have not demonstrated love for the body of Christ in their ministries, but in contrast, the cessationist pastors have!
I have worked in ministry to the blind for around 40 years as a visually impaired person myself and my wife who is totally blind. I can tell you here in all the years I worked there and have still connections with this ministry, not one blind person has ever been healed miraculously. Not even in it's almost 70 years of existence has there been any miracles either of sight gain without human intervention.
So would that be an argument via experience? Almost 12 months ago, I prayed for a woman who was needing surgery for foot pain and spot that was swelling. (We’re not Charismatics) She was reading that she should come to the elders and have them pray. So we simply prayed. Next Sunday she was newly able to get through the day without having to leave. Still pain. So we prayed again. She returned to work and hadn’t had pain since. Surgery has been cancelled. God doesn’t heal everyone in this lifetime. I myself had dehibilitating back pain for many years until I got surgery. But a couple years before surgery, I had an experience that changed my perspective. God healed me fully… but momentarily before simply asking me: ‘Will you trust me?’ I had never considered that in our society we long for miracles that are often simply a connivence. And in that environment, sometimes gives us the miracle of suffering. Doesn’t mean God can’t heal. He can. Honestly… He will one day. It’s just a matter of His timing. The question is: what does God’s Word teach us? We won’t see miracles if we won’t walk in obedience. If we aren’t praying in faith. If we’re asking outside of His timing. But we ask knowing that sometimes He’ll respond in pretty amazing ways.. and because the a Bible says we should.
@@mihaivesa7719 True it says '.. by faith and not by sight..' and that is in the context of Thomas. However, where is the scripture that says this in context to the completion of the entire scriptural cannon? Please think carefully before replying?
You never find the Apostles announcing beforehand that they are going to hold a Healing Service in a few days' time. Why not? Because they never knew when it was going to happen. They did not decide, and it was not within their control. Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981)
What? Acts 4: 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Do u read your bible or u depend on people for info?
@@angelovillaruz5052 The apostles have 0 percent to do with signs and wonders. It is, and always the Lord Jesus moving in their midst. That is why i quoted it
Great discussion. It's more apparent to me that Pastor Jim is more concerned with the "Charasmatic" movement that is seen on TV and online. Dr Brown is a great debater and great person to have these discussions with. The last 2 mins of the discussion in my opinion summed it up perfectly 🙏
Unfortunately, the charismatic church culture that Dr. Brown describes doesn’t exist. What we see are faith healers who claim that gift but who can’t heal (not just on tv-I’ve been there with folks in a small local congregation) and who work very hard to get money out of desperate people. And those are folks whom people like Dr. Brown and his friend Sam Storms support (especially Benny Hinn). We see also evangelists who are involved in egregious sexual sin and relational abuse, whose “ministries” are not brought to an end (Todd Bentley and now Mike Bickel). Just a clarification: cessationists don’t believe the works of the Holy Spirit have ceased but that because the ministry of Christ is established, the way He works through humanity has changed. God doesn’t change, but His methods can and do as He chooses.
Greeting. Pastor Jim was concerned about charismatic stunts that they practice. He was also very careful on dwelling on order topic that will lead to a collapse of the conversation i.e. he seemed to avoid talking about the false prophets because ( I think) he knows he was going to end up making references by naming the people by name. That would have been a disaster on its own.
@@ajwerth7558I love that you make a false statement and act like it’s true. You obviously are more enamored with Benny Hinn and others like him, and really have never seen other charismatic circles. Also it’s a lie that Dr. Brown and Sam Storms support Benny Hinn. You really shouldn’t say anything unless you know it’s the truth. Bearing false witness is a sin brother. And it’s not Christlike to make statements when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.
Dr Brown, unfortunately, endorses nearly all of the most infamous hyper-charismatics like Benny Hinn, the “Demon Slayers”, Sid Roth, etc… matter of fact it’s tough to find hardly any people he has NOT endorsed on the charismatic side. He won’t even call out Bill Johnson and Bethel…
I always feel like these debates miss the elephant in the room....which is...are the gifts that charismatics point to real or not? The ENTIRE point of SIGNS and WONDERS was to authenticate!! The Charismatic movement should, by definition, be self-authenticating. Are Sign Gifts for today? Well, where are the accurate prophecies? Where are the miraculous healings?...Has a single quadriplegic gottem out of a wheel chair? Has anyone actually spoken a human language they werent trained in? Has anyone made a specific, unmistakable prophecy? I think its a waste of time arguing over whether or not we think the Bible says gifts are for today, unless we are ready to admit that the so called signs and wonders supposedly going in regularly are never ever recorded. Its totally bizarre. It is SO disingenuous of Dr. Brown to always point to unverifiable miracles happening in "some small village" somehwere in the 3rd world. If Gifts are notmative than they should be going on all yhe time in the USA, but we mever do, do we?
they will redefine all the gifts in order to include gibberish, a partial healing and vague prophecies that are inaccurate to claim they still have them
Dr Brown has an incredible depth of knowledge into Scripture. I hope one day to have just a fraction of that knowledge. Great debate overall among Christian brothers who disagree on the finer points of doctrine!
Then Dr. Brown, take Jim Osman with you to a few locations in the world and show him what you're saying. If you know of so much of this happening, then take Jim to some of those colleagues of yours you say have unusually high occasions of praying for and healing deaf people, and let him meet them, and spend time with them in their ministry capacity. Let him see what you say you keep seeing, sir. What is so hard about that?
exactly. it’s strange because that would truly be the humble thing to do. but instead certain people insist on debate because then we can just argue and figure out who sounds more convincing.
@@John-Christchurch-NZ I don't believe that's the case. Besides, the said documented evidence would have been nice for Dr. Brown to explicitly present. Post links, send documents or something. It is easy to say "documented". Why "documented" seems so hard to present is what is suspicious.
@@VeritybyVersejust because we don’t see it here in the West does not negate what the Bible says. If the Bible says that we are to pursue those gifts then it can happen, otherwise why would we be commanded to pursue them? Biblically those gifts should follow those who believe, I think we are not seeing them because of our unbelief just like cessationism. It already does not believe the gifts from the outset. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. Jas.1.6-8 ESV
39ᐯ “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Having come from a cessationist fundamental Baptist background it seems to me cessationist search the scriptures....but charismatics search the scriptures and outside the scriptures for the supernatural God to drink deeply from His cisterns. Like David they are prone to following their heart. I listen to cessationist critics Jim and Justin work and work and work to pick apart their charismatic enemies and I hear the Spirit of the Pharisees. If the critics would only critique w a tiny bit of humility to try and interact w their charismatic enemy redemptively...but I don't think that's as important as establishing themselves above their charismatic enemies. It like the cessationist critics are missing some fruit, peace, joy, love!
As a partial preterist, it all works out. It began at Pentecost and ends at the end of the age, the old covenant age, when Christ returned to judge unbelieving Israel in the destruction of the temple in AD 70. The language of stars falling and the sun not shining is used in the same way in the Old Testament when God judges unbelieving nations.
Perhaps the debate is not have this or that gift ceased, perhaps the discussion should be how do we not idolize and abuse spiritual gifts. How do we protect the church from the liars and performers. That’s probably what we should be more focused on. I think MB & JO have a lot more in common than they care to admit. Great discussion. Humbling and makes one realize that we must be a lot more prayerful and spend a lot more time in scripture.
Even though he is best friends with Mike Bickle, affirms Benny Hinn, and loves almost all the nutty TBN false teachers? If he had any discernment I would agree with your assessment, but by association he has a hard time pulling his own view out of the weeds. He seems like a false teacher by association
Maybe you can answer my question from scripture alone- not from philosophical reasoning in line with a certain religion/faith How is it possible to be born again with the indwelling Holy Spirit and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit? How do you deny the personal power of the one living with you? Please help me to figure this out.
@@ShamelesslyRed The spirit is the one who grants the gifts. He could grant it when I ask, he could also choose not to grant it when I ask. It is completely up to him. So, you can have the holy spirit without the miraculous gift of healing, tongues, and so on. The only gift of the spirit that is granted to everyone is salvation, apart from that the sign gifts are granted "as the Spirit wills." So, how you know the gifts have ceased is by observing those who claim they've been given the gifts and test them with scripture. If they line up with the Bible, then yes... They haven't ceased. If they don't, then they've ceased. I am a cessationist because when I look around among people who claim they've been given those gifts, I find out that they are all phony. 2020 was the year that proved that nobody today has the gift of healing or prophecy. And a careful study of 1st Corinthians 14 tells us that tongues are a sign to unbelieving Israel, and are intelligible languages, not the gibberish common among charismatics. The Bible convinces me of Cessationism just by me looking at the world today and comparing it with what happened in the days of the apostles. When I do, it becomes clear as day that the Spirit has stopped granting those sign gifts today.
@@ShamelesslyRed Also, by simple observation I can tell that the spirit keeps granting the gift of salvation, because I see several Christians who grow in sanctification and holiness after asking for salvation. So the gift of salvation has not ceased.... So, by this biblical mechanism of "testing the spirits" with scripture, I know for a fact that the sign gifts have ceased.
@@ShamelesslyRed Also, the moment you began to reason with a biblical topic, you already started dabbling with philosophy. By the way, all the philosophies granted by Jim Osman in the bebate were all based on scripture. He never quited from another book. If you truly want to challenge Cessationism, you have to do the dilligent work of wrestling with it, and not expect to be spoon-fed plain bible verses that say what you want without critical reasoning. Happy New Year, by the way 🎊✨
@@melchysomba9690 no they haven't according to scripture. I'm living proof as well as countless others throughout the entirety of church history. The Holy Spirit is fully active among God's own. I'm not even sure how this can be questioned. With all due respect, I wonder if this is the representation of those who have a form of Godliness but deny it's power.
Well Dr Browns point about locking someone alone with the Bible and they wouldn’t think the gifts have ceased is wrong. I was saved when I turned 33 and in the first 3 years after I spent almost every part of every day reading the word and drawing as close as I could and just did Bible study after Bible study. And about that 3rd year after being born again, (being baptized with the Holy Ghost) I heard someone speak in what I would call fake tongues and I was like what is that!!! I was smiling but there was a about 20 of us in a zoom call fellowshipping and I was like what is wrong with this guy. We were praying for someone to be healed. Then a lady spoke and started to interpret what he said. And she said God said the blood decease was being healed and she will be made whole. But she died a few days later. The days leading up to that I searched and searched for that in the Bible and never found it, then when I was told where to find it I was like that is not talking about jibberish. But I prayed and prayed to receive the gift of tongues if that was in deed it. But never got it. I did receive wisdom and learned that, that was false. Also I was under the impression the gifts being spoke about in acts where for the apostles only and those at that time. Because when I read the epistles, I learned what I was supposed to do and it was nothing like De Brown says. Then I asked the Lord for guidance and the Spirit lead me down the road of discernment and now I can see how much Satan is at war with the church and not the world because he already has them. But he deceives the weak members of the church and leads them to a false Jesus.
You used your experience to nullify the gift of tongues. Because you prayed and didn't get the gift of tongues (that was your EXPERIENCE) that meant that the gift of tongues was not valid for today. Even though the scripture says "Do all speak in tongues?" (with the obvious answer being no, not all speak in tongues). And the idea that someone giving a fake interpretation of a tongue that didn't result in healing does not invalidate either the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues. There are a lot of kooky charismatics out there operating in fake gifts. There were always more false prophets than true prophets. I have been healed twice after a word of knowledge told me I would be healed--and they prayed for my healing of tha specific disease. But do I have any health issues that have not been healed? Yes, I do. That does not invalidate the gift called words of knowledge that result in healing (or anything else, like specific guidance).
@@ReLair88 You say my EXPERIENCE and then tell about yours lol. God can move and heal whom he wants. And when people pray like the word of God tells us to for healing. People can be healed if God so choices. But the Apostolic gifts being talked about are gone. They were to build up and lay the foundation. Now we go of the more sure Word of prophecy which is the Word of God. And Jesus tells us that this wicked and sinful generation seeks after a sign. And in the latter days this will be more and more. The gifts of the Apostles were to prove that they indeed spoke the will of God and were backed by God. It was for the unbelievers so that they would believe. Now its all about Faith and we have the bible which they did not. So can God do miracles and answer prayers today. Yes no one says that he doesn't. But there are zero people out there with the powers the Apostles had. And words of Knowledge are false because if God were to speak like that then you could right it down and add it to the bible, and the tongues in the bible are not babbling like a mad person, they are actual languages. Also you missed the entire point of what i was talking about.
That's not a Bible alone story, its one of your experience. You neglected to give a Scriptural basis for the cessation of the gifts. The closest you hot was saying they were only for the apostles, but that is not the Biblical position as I could give a dozen non apostles operating in Spiritual gifts.
One important point I believe we need to include more is that the miracles happening today in the charismatic movements looks like spirituality from other religions: The toungespeaking (as we see in eastern religion), the sporadic healing, the prophesies/forthtellers. Can it be that this is new age synergy? A second point is church history: Does it make sense that almost all of the devout Christian men and women through history has all overlooked such a huge essential part of faithful Christian living? Maybe they were more protected against the temptation?
@@sunithagirish2139 devils ministers come as ministers of light and righteousness, and they claim the name of Jesus Kennith Hagge and Kennith Copland both point people to Jesus and claim Jesus but are demonically infiltrated for sure ! so we need to look past pointing to Jesus all the new apostolic folks all claim Jesus but are not teaching sound doctrine but doctrine of demons!!
Church history is not on the side of cessationists. The cessationist claim is that the gifts already decreased towards the end of the apostolic age, and that they ceased when the last apostle died. Yet we have testimony from the most reliable of the church fathers, who lived in the 2nd - 3rd century, who still reported of miracles happening. Justin Martyr mentions that the prophetical gifts remained with him at his time, that demons are being exorcised, and that Polycarp (the student of John) had received prophecies. Irenaeus, the student of Polycarp, mentions that demons are cast out, prophecies are being made, the sick are healed after laying of hands. Tertullian speaks of a woman who brought messages from God, and explicitly says that spiritual gifts like tongues are still continuing. Only from the 3rd - 4th century onwards do you start hearing reports about the gifts decreasing in frequency, and the fathers who report this (Origen most notably) attribute this to a lack of morality, not a questionable scriptural implicit inference as is done by cessationists today.
I grew up in a cessationist community and had been very skeptical with christians that claim miraculous gifts but after this debate and all Dr Brown has pointed out, i might be a continuationist now. I read and reviewed all the passages they presented and at least for me they all make more sense that all gifts still continues and there is no concrete passage that says otherwise. I am definitely blessed with this. Thank you.
The only way you can possibly be a continuationist is if you have a vague definition of tongues. An Acts definition of tongues will never do. Michael Brown cant define tongues from Acts...never could.
then you got some explaining to do as to how the apostles were different from anyone else... and how people can give a divine revelation from God yet the canon is closed....
I was born Roman Catholic and after 35 years in the Catholic Church and I was born again on 24/10/1986 after hearing the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. God revealed to me that I was loved as Moses Abraham and Isaac and His word is true . I started reading the gospel of John and Acts. I knew that the believers would lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I’m still learning more daily and seeing more healing and miracles. Jesus never told us to pray for the sick but to heal the sick.
I agree totally with Dr. Brown. Not for any other reason except it agrees with scripture. I haven’t studied other men’s or women’s teaching, just the Bible. And that alone is the reason I have to agree with Dr. Brown. Well done Dr. Brown. Glad to have your voice. I pray Jim Osman becomes a continuationist. The gifts are a blessing. All of them. ❤
@@Bibledingers That’d be great. It’d be nice to see someone on the cessationist side actually deal with the scholarly side of things (the best I’ve seen so far has been Schreiner). I was pretty embarrassed to see that new documentary. Especially some of the teachers I highly respect. The Remnant guys are on like vid 6 of taking the claims piece by piece and they’re pleading for a real public conversation.
Thank you Dr. Brown, you asked pertinent questions that exposes the double standard in these discussions (eg. where are the limbs that grow, but they would never dare asked where did limbs grow in the scriptures). Great dialogue.
1:09:20 very legit good question. "Yess,but....."some of my colleagues"??? There is claims all over charismania ... and he goes on ignoring the question can he please gives us names of healers "he knows"?
Much of Brown's argument focused on the sign gifts not being connected to the Apostles specifically, but being normative. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, Paul says in relation to himself "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds." Jim missed an opportunity to show this, and Brown railroaded him after this.
In fairness, Brown is more familiar with this kind of discussion, having been in so many debates. I saw times as well that Jim Osman didn’t make certain points but I was considering that he is a local pastor, has a shepherds heart for his local body and I don’t think debates/discussions like this are really something he desires to achieve in life. Also, with Brown hitting him with so many points and not giving him a chance to respond (until the moderators stepped in more than once), I think these two things contributed to him missing certain opportunities. However, I do think he handled himself and his position very well. Yes, he missed some opportunities but overall I think it was good. I wasn’t disappointed.
That is not what Dr. Brown said. What he said was that they were not exclusive to the apostles (referring to the 12), but were evident in many people throughout the New Testament I.e. Stephen, Phillip, Agabus, Phillip’s daughters, etc. The apostles did have sign ministries, but so did many others, confirmed by Paul’s teaching that “to one is given by the Spirit…the working of miracles (I Cor. 12:8-11).
@carld2796 The argument is that the second letter was written later, and Paul is acknowledging the changing way in which the gifts are being distributed. The sign gifts are emphasised in the earlier writings of Paul, and then disappear in the later writings, at the same time that Paul makes reference to people like Timothy using medicinal methods to treat ailments. For the record, I'm not 100% convinced with the cessationist position. I would describe myself as a biblical continuationist, because much of what I see the charismatic movement celebrate is unbiblical (such as forcing tongues, being slain, Mystic Meg prophecies). If the Lord uses an indiclvidual to do something miraculous which edifies the body, or brings people into faith in Him, then I'm shouting hallelujah. But the emphasis of the local church must always be gathering around the Word, and that's why I'd always go to Jim's church ahead of Brown's.
Doesnt that way of thinking go against the words of Jesus ? Mark 11:23-24 NASB1995 [23] Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. [24] Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you. I think our prayer is most effective when we know the will of God and pray it. And it does seem to me that Gods general will amd desire is to heal and restore. Just like with evanglesim, even if you are reformed you start from a place of believing its Gods will to save. You domt wait till He shpws you wheter one was chosem or not , you preach the gospel to ALL. I thinl we shpuld believe its God's will to heal unless He makes it known it isnt , like in the case of Pauls thorn, or the case of ananias and sapphira,etc. Our faith does seem to be a huge factor. Thats why i believe james says to call the elders. They should have sincere faith and know the will of God better than the flock they keep watch over. Just my thoughts. God bless you my friend! bible.com/bible/100/mrk.11.24.NASB1995
Also , love believes all things , hopes all things. We are to think on what is lovely and pure. As good as God is and compassu9nate, and thst He woupd die for us WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, how much more woupd he heal a sinners body amd how much more a saints! But i do acknowledge it may be His will not to in some cases(Herod, anaais and sapphira, etc, pauls blindness, at least until His timing),but i think we shouod stsrt from a positive place He will. Does this make sense? Would you agree?
I think it's simple. The (wacky) charismatics want glory for themselves, supposing that they have the authority to do supposed signs and wonders while the cessationists rely on God in continuous prayer, sometimes in their secret room, interceding and pleading with God and thus giving God all the glory acknowledging that apart from God, he can't even breathe, what more do a sign and a wonder.
@@Bibledingers but who is more accepting of blatant deception which leads people astray from Dr Brown is of more openly supporting of guys like a Sid Roth which has naturally supernatural people on his show all the time. But the supernatural ability they possess is in their imagination because even Sid Roth says he's jealous of the guys that have all these abilities to do all these things they clain they can do wirh absolutely zero proof that he has on his show as they advertise their books with extra biblical ideologies that add stumbling blocks away from the Gospel of God. Js correct me if I'm wrong
It's often as if Brown doesn't even hear what Osman is saying--although I think it's more of a case that Brown doesn't like what he's hearing so he ignores it. How many times does Brown need to be told: Cessationists believe that God still performs miracles! That is not the argument, yet Brown tries to make miracles his bedrock argument. So frustrating!
I don't know, on the other hand Jim was reffering to round and round to crazy charismatics, who misused the gifts. Especially with healing...charismarics who wants to earn the glory when God heals someone. Surely there are charismatics who misused the gifts, I, as a charismatic (ex-cessationist!) am very critical towards these people, but it doesn't mean we should generalize, bcs it is not true for charismatics in general and it hurts many Bible based charismatics, just as myself! And yes I pray for healing when someone comes up to me and asks me and I'm using my gift of healing, bcs I was commanded to do so by Paul! But I'm humble enough to not to think it is by my power🤷♀️ I'm tired of this dumb assumptions of cessationists🙈 we just simply follow the Bible...1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy....etc
I am a Cessationist. I HAVE THE HIGHEST REVERENCE and HIGHEST VIEW of the HOLY SPIRIT! I know God works miracles daily. Every time someone is saved is a massive miracle. BUT having a low view of the HOLY spirit thinking he can be used as a stage prop to entertain the unregenerate at a whim by mere men is the most blasphemous thing ever!
Did Brown and Osman agree to stay away from some topics/names? It seems as if they were careful to stay away from the “Demon Slayers”, mass healing conferences, mass deliverance conferences, etc…
This was an excellent discussion. I was a Charismatic but now have moved to Reformed. I am very grateful that the Lord brought me out of the manipulation of that movement. I appreciate Pastor Jim very much as I have seen him with Justin Peters on several occasions. A few take-always for me: Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not? When Pastor Jim asked about whether prophecy was necessary Dr Brown replied that it was at which Pastor Jim replied regarding the sufficiency of scripture. This is a huge point for me. If the scripture is authoritative but is not enough then everything becomes subjective. One last point that seems unrelated but goes to a mind-set, I know that Dr Brown believes in woman Pastors. If I lock myself in a room with just the Bible and read 1Tim2:12, won’t I come away with the fact that woman are not permitted to teach or have authority over men? Just a thought. Also, what does Dr Brown imply about “going deeper” or “maturing” with respect to the exercise of gifts of healing? Did the Apostles have to mature and go deeper prior to performing the healings? Thank you all for posting this. Looking forward to seeing the full discussion with Justin and Sam Storms.
The opposite of charismatic isnt reformed... its actually Cessationist. There are Reformed-Charismatic pastors. The opposite of Reformed AKA Calvinist i think would be Arminianism "Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not?" - the simple answer to that question is yes. Many continuist believe that the arguments of cessationist is not correct exegesis of scripture but eisegesis of scripture.
The sufficiency of scripture is PRECISELY what makes prophecy essential and necessary. I find it surprising that this point seems to be flipped on its head. It's almost like claiming that we don't need the Holy Spirit, because we already have Jesus as the perfect mediator. Any believer in Holy Scripture would reply that the Holy Spirit is necessary because Jesus, the perfect mediator, said the Holy Spirit was necessary, and this doesn't diminish one bit from His role. In the exact same way, the role of prophetic gifts is established by Scripture, so there is absolutely no way it also detracts from its authority. Can this be abused? Yes. Can the role of the Holy Spirit be abused so as to take precedence over the role of the Son? Yes. Any sound doctrine can be abused. But application of doctrine mustn't proceed from potential of abuse, but rather from obedience of Holy Scripture.
@@hkj8156 thank you for your response. I did in fact mean to to say I am not only reformed but cessationist as well. Also, If continuationists believe cessationists do not have valid understanding of scripture then that would imply they are infallible. Thanks again.
Lots of what Brown says is looking at things from "experience" experiences can be deceptive. Plus being good friends with someone like Sid Roth says a lot
Cessationist pick and choose what gifts they are comfortable with. The assignment of Jesus Christ has never changed. The gifts of Holy Spirit have never ever ceased.
I’m in minute 35 and I have to agree with Dr. Brown that in certain personal matters we should seek the direction of God for our lives which means God will reveal His perfect will for our lives. Otherwise, why even ask God for wisdom? 🤔🤔🤔
Jim Osman addresses this in his book, God Doesn’t Whisper. I don’t think there was enough time in this discussion to go into great detail on every point but Jim addresses this very well in his book. Also, Greg Koukl addresses this in his blog at Stand To Reason. The article is titled: Does God Whisper. Again, Greg Koukl addresses this on his October 6th episode of his podcast at Stand To Reason, titled- Decision Making and The Will of God: The Biblical Model. Costi Hinn also addresses this in his new book, Knowing The Spirit.
One thing I always find interesting. The common question always asked of “faith healers”, “demon slayers”, etc, that they never give a good response to is this … Why not go to the worst neighborhoods with murder, crime, drugs, prostitution and cast those demons out? There’s clearly a need for it. Or why not go empty out hospitals? There’s clearly a need for it. And the answer they always give is this… “Well we don’t believe it works like that. We never know when or where the Spirit might move or show up. We can’t predict it, that’s why we don’t operate like that.” That use to suffice for me. HOWEVER, then I constantly see these “healers” and “demon slayers” scheduling and performing mass healing conferences, mass deliverance sessions, etc all over the country?!? Hmmm, I thought you didn’t know when or where it would happen, and that was your excuse to not go to hospitals to heal the sick and dangerous neighborhoods to cast out all of the demons??? Very interesting….
Dr Brown is picking on straws when kept focusing on Jim mentioning apostolic. Jim was referring to the apostolic authority of the apostles. It is always mentioned in the introduction of every letter to the church.
All the miraculous works that took place in scripture, we BELIEVE because they’re in the Scriptures. But what authoritates someone’s so called miraculous experience today? Why should anyone believe what they say?
The claim of cessationists is solely that it is Biblical that the gifts stopped. It’s the genius of Dr. Browns wisdom and arguments. You want experiential proof they exist outside of your own relationship with God? Go to one of the churches that believe what is taught in the Bible. You will LOVE what Jesus called the promise of the Father.
Jim looks tense and uneasy but Michael is relaxed. He presented his points with Scriptures which are convincing. Jim has only opinions to prove his points. I believe if a person reads the Scriptures alone without anyone influencing his view, he will continue with the Scriptures and not become a cessationist. I was a cessationist bec that was taught in our church environment and never challenged it. As I looked through the Scriptures, it made more sense to me that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. We need the Spirit of God more to work through us in these evil end times.
Well presented from both sides. That said, it wouldn't be that hard to put this whole debate to rest. Just produce some evidence. It's unimaginable that there is never a cell phone on hand when these healings occur. Practically every charismatic church in the country has video capabilities. And then there's the troubling fact that the charismatic movement seems to produce an inordinate number of false teachers, prophets, and healers.
Here are a couple possible responses to your arguments. First I believe even most charismatics would concede that today, as was the case even in the New Testament, that there are some kinds of miracles which are lass frequent. Acts 19 says Paul did even "extraordinary" miracles, implying that even then the gift of some levels of healing and miracles wasn't simply an on command thing. The kinds of healings that would be easily seen on a camera are things like a missing finger being re-grown, that kind of thing, creative miracles. Something that even in the New Testament quite possibly was less frequent. A more common kind of healing would be somebody getting healed of some kind of disease or maybe a stomach tumor disappears. Something signifcant, but maybe not viewable on camera. That being said I believe there are countless examples of healings that can be medically verified (see Craig Keener book). Also I think it could be argued that while God does sometimes allow things to be seen on camera, there is an aspect to miracles that still requires a certain amount of "hiddenness" or faith to believe. Even in Jesus' day, God could have done certain things which would have made every last person on earth believe intellectually in his missiahship/divinity. God could have given Jesus power to make lightning bolts come out of Jesus' fingertips, and the ability to make his breakfast appear miraculously every morning, and to continuously walk around in his glorified form (as at the transfiguration), or continuously walk on water for ALL to see. Though there were brief glimpses of some of those things on the part of some, generally speaking, Jesus did not continuously do that. He did a lot of crazy and amazing miracles to be sure. But even those usually had to be verified through personal testimony. Presumably why this was the case was because God wasn't primarily interested in getting people to believe in Jesus on just an intellectual level. He was interested in getting the lowly and humble to believe. He was more interested in the heart than the head. And Jesus also said some wouldn't believe even if they saw somebody return from the dead. I guess my overall point is that the proof is there to be found, even with extraordinary miracles, for those willing to really search it out (similar to the way the understanding of the parables was hidden to some, and hey available to those who pressed into it). That still leaves the issue of seeing a bunch of bad fruit from several charismatic churches. On that front I would simply say that's the same reason why thousands leave the church every day. Bad church experiences. Both charismatic and non charismatic. That shouldn't be a reason to give up believing in Jesus, just because there are plenty of bad apples. It might even be said that really really great churches are more the exception than the rule. But the principle still holds. And so I would say with the practice of charismatic gifts. The presence of abuse does not negate the presence of the genuine. And the mature should continue pressing in for the pure, even in the presence of much foolishness.
Dr. Brown took the win easily Especially when our other brother was pressed on rather those in Corinth with the gift of healing could heal at will. He really couldn’t answer that
God is not that concerned with things that are not eternal, healing goes away, God set your affections on things eternal, name one miracle that is eternal except salvation.
Arguing that no one failed to heal in the time of Acts is like concluding Tom Brady never threw an incomplete pass after watching his highlight reel. Acts is a short book spanning decades of time. It doesn’t make sense to include such events.
Geez Dr Brown alludes the question with another fallacy. When the moderator asked about are there modern day healers, he quickly changes argument by asking the moderator if healing of limbs are recorded in Acts. That wasnt the issue. The issue is whether there are healers today and he has to qualify their legitimacy.
I have an observation to make. Nick had to intervene so many times to have Brown (why i have to be titled Doctor instead of my first name, I'll never understand) allow Osman to answer questions. I had a career working with tough individuals and there was this one moniker leveled many times on some individuals. "Mealymouth". Brown escalates frequently and overstates his points. This energy usually indicates a control of the conversation. I also hear a lot of redirecting the convo on tangents that actually create confusion. As far as the references to healings and prophecies around the world by Brown, i ask: is there any place in scripture that tells us we have to believe all the incidents of other people claiming supernatural gifts to be saved? Is salvation dependent on anyone's testimony or claim to have had a supernatural occurrence? Just because people claim these types of occurrences doesn't mean we have to believe these things...either for salvation, OR so as not to blaspheme the Spirit. But claiming that the Spirit is saying something or doing something when He's not...is absolutely blasphemy. I think our position should be to err on the side of caution, not in asumptive behavior that is characteristic of those who don't exercise self control and soundness in mind (including reasoning and objective critique and rational discernment) (the later parenthesized functions can't be dismissed as psychological bable, they are actually expressed in scripture). We really need to raise the bar on understanding and defending these concerns od doctrinal stances and quit being lazy and unwilling to defend God's clearly revealed word to this planet. Words matter, Syntax matters, grammar matters, and Logic and reasoning matters. Lets quit being vague and confusing to our world about these issues. Critical thinking is dismissed as unbelieve. But critical thinking ALWAYS leads us to question errors and falsehood. Btw, I am a cessationist and today's hearing of Browns insistent techniques in badgering Osman taught me only one thing. Not that I should reconsider my cessationist belief, but that Osman has a lot of patience. I wasn't always a cessationist. Until 4 years ago, i always allowed (in my reasoning) for charismatic and pentecostal in my tolerence. But when I finally concluded that I can't allow for the inconsistencies, it became resoundingly clear and clearer. I honestly believe there is a delusion in the equation that concerns truth. If we reject truth, we believe lies. In my 67 years, i find the credibility waning in charismatic and pentecostal doctrines. Im convinced of cessation of the sign gifts.
Too be honest, if charismatics were right, it would be quite underwhelming. As Jim pointed out, why aren't people having their sight restored and dead bodies being raised? There's a host of children in hospital beds right now- why not exercise such healing powers on them? As I said, it would be very underwhelming if Michael Brown was correct. I'm with Jim on this.
I literally witnessed people receiving their hearing two weekends ago. These people were followed up with and are still healed. But you don't care you've made up your mind...
@@andrewmattiewalter great. Now tell those who are endowed with such gifts of the spirit to head to every children's hospital in their area and make a difference.
The question I will ask is did our Lord Jesus raise all the death? Did he heal all the sick? No he didn't. When reading the bible permit the holy Spirit to help you. God still heals today but because most people mind have been blindfolded they don't give him the chance to express himself. A proof that there's power in the name of Jesus is that demons will always subject to it when it's called and healing the sick is expressing the power in the name of Jesus
Did Jesus heal all the sick? When he went to the pool of Bethesda where they were many sick people he healed just one man. If you go through scripture you will also hear Jesus saying your faith has made you whole you're heal because you have faith in the word of God.. He is a gift as salvation is also a gift. Isa.53:3-5 he was wounded for our transgressions, bruise for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him but by his stripes we are healed. Who are the we? It represents the children of God. Matthew 8:17 [17]That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. He took my infirmities and bore my sickness upon himself. JESUS STILL HEALS TODAY!!!
One of my biggest problems with continuation is tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:26 says that if there is no interpreters of the tongues being spoken the speaker should be silent. I have never heard anyone interpret what is being spoken in tongues.
@@bigtobacco1098 I think you missed the point...... the cessationists do the very same thing they accuse the continuationist of. They reject the biblical interpretation (which is what really matters) and then appeal to their own experiences as a "proof".... pot meet kettle.... it is never really about "evidence" in a scientific manner. When they do encounter a legitimate miracle, they just call it providence or sovereign acts instead of using the biblical description..... I don't care what they "call" it in order to maintain their doctrinal boundaries, but can we just stop all the unnecessary bickering within the body?
Jim has great patience. Michael Brown was being pushy throughout that discussion and not giving Jim the chance to speak. He may say that is how his mind works but he was not gracious at all. Thankful for Jim's conviction to stick with what the Biblical narrative.
Not nearly as pushy as some of the cessationist teachers. This is just because you don't agree with him and you have itching ears for the cessationist doctrine and can't stand those who say otherwise.
This was excellent! I have mad respect for Osman having a decent conversation. My question for Osman though, in the cessesionist documentary they claim Christian that believe the gifts still operate are not really Christians and we believe in doctrine of demons. Does he agree with that statement?
Sadly, I observed this as well. Love Dr. Brown, but he does get a little rude and controlling rather than being humble. This is not an ad hominem attack, but an observation.
Dr. Brown did apparently have a conversation with Justin Peters and it went on for three hours. Dr. Brown said he was looking forward to the discussion airing soon.
Peter’s and Brown have a recorded 3 hour discussion that was meant to be used for American Gospel 3. Brown did not like how it was used and now wants it only to be released as an uncut interview. No one has run from a discussion Brown just complained about how he was presented after MULTIPLE revisions by the producer per his request. He still then backed out
Good debate. This is however where eschatology matters. In Acts 2 when it refers to "the last days", it is automatically assumed to mean the end of the physical cosmos or the world. Rather than it being just that, the end of the Judaic age. With Jerusalem being destroyed, along with the 2nd temple, that was the end of the "last days". We are now in the Millennium. However, when taking the pre-mil position, being a cessationist honestly makes no sense because according to that system, we are still in those "last days." It's so common to insert ourselves into the text rather than letting the text speak for itself.
In fact, Jim asked Mike that question and Brown answered it saying that those with the gifts have a greater frequency to certain gifts beyond that seen when God responds to the prayers of His people. Certain people, not all have higher rates of say healing than others.
I think the question is really, why do you desire the gifts? And for most people the answer is, it comes out of the wickedness of our own harts. And how we could best use those gifts to prove ourselves right. If it were only to glorify the name of the most high, then there are plenty of other way we can do that. But I believe sadly most who desire the gifts are more like Simon the sorcerer than a Paul or Peter or James. Which is why we don't see more of those things. The words "earnestly desire" brings connotations of for the right reasons, and not just wanting it because you think your supposed to have it.
As a former Charismatic ( I use to give words of knowledge, prophecy and etc) now a Cessationist I thought Jim didn't really address the specific Scriptures Brown brought up. He also didn't define prophecy, tongues and words of knowledge. While I'm thankful Jim took the time to have this opportunity to discuss this important topic he just got out maneuvered by Brown who is a seasoned debater.
Always we hear "I used to be in such and such a movement" as a "qualifier" that you somehow are in some kind of superior position to debunk that position. This is a total fallacy. There are no "former charismatics" either you had the gifts of the Holy Spirit and still have them, though you have been led to somehow deny it by some deranged mental twisting from the enemy or you never really had the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the first place and only thought you did. At least I am honest and say I was never a Cessationist. I am glad I never denied God's gifts of the Holy Spirit nor the Holy Spirit who gives them. Without examples of your words of knowledge, prophecy I am not in a position to judge which, but If I am in a position to hear what you said, I will also be able to define where you are coming from.
It's because Brown continue to sidetrack the argument with multiple points. He's very good at manipulating the conversation to make his argument convincing. What I wish the narrators would do more is stop Dr. Brown and allow Jim to respond. Brown is not a good debater as he thinks. He gets away with it with red herrings and straw man.
Some things brother Jim stated that i differ with. --He stated something about needing the use of gifts to be place and time specific in Scripture. If applied to prayer, then prayer has cessed. --He stated that gifts were only for Apostles yet Paul wrote to the church that he spoke in tongues more than you all, thus saying the church spoke in tongues. --He stated that the Apostles healed all who came to them, that claim is not supported in Scripture. * I believe gifts continue and that brother Jim puts unwarranted demands on the proof.
@@Felipe2023Lopez I assume your not a Christian, and I assume you could care less about the truth of God’s word. I have never been called “Charismatic” before but in its true definition, I am guilty. Perhaps you need to accept Jesus as your savior and Lord, they ask Him to help you with that anger problem. I find that if I will repent where the Bible convicts me then life serving Jesus is less stressful. It is difficult confessing something you do not have, isn’t it? Ask Jesus to save you, He is merciful and full of grace. And if you will believe His word He will fill you with the baptism of the Holy Spirit JUST as He did each person in Acts that scripture says the Holy Spirit came upon them and they all spoke in Tongues. Must warn you though, it is a serious thing to pray in the Spirit or as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, in Tongues. It will build you up spiritually as Paul also said. Of course until you do obey in this you do not have to be concerned about Paul’s correction to the Corinthians while in service and teaching is going on. To your Paul writes as he did in Acts 19: have you received the Holy Spirit after you believed? And when they received they ALL spoke in Tongues without any interpretator or sinners around to hear them speak. It was the evidence. I know, a real bummer when the word of God makes you “angry”, as I said just repent. If the fur on a cat is raised from rubbing it the wrong way, just turn the cat around…you know repent. So “CHARISMATIC” by definition is what the Apostle Paul was, and all the disciples after Pentecost. I believe in content in this group of people, so thank you for the compliment.
@@fvdj2204 That has to be one of the silliest things I have ever heard. That is like saying prove Jesus Christ never existed when He did and nowhere says He stopped existing. Just admit you do not know what the Bible says and you could care less. There are millions, literally millions of people and testimonies proving the gifts existed after the Apostles. But of course you could care less about truth. You have an "opinion" that is your god so forget what the Bible says. Paul told us to "seek the best gifts" in referenced to the spiritual gits and not once did anyone write it ended. So proof is Paul said they started and continued. So simple!
@@Felipe2023Lopez YOU WHO? I guess you mean liars? First of all this is the first time I have been called "Charismatic" but hey according to its actual definition, guilty!!! Easy to call someone not face to face a liar, and not use your "real name", but most people who do not know Jesus do not care what His word says about anything they want to do contrary to it. Let me introduce you to Jesus Christ since you must believe in a different god than me, He (Jesus), God, gave His life for your sins. If you will repent of yours and accept by faith His atonement for you that He paid on the cross, you can be born-again as I and many millions of others have done. Charismatic, funny how you use this word. Paul the Apostle and all the disciples after Pentecost were "CHARISMATICS" based on its actual definition. So where does that leave YOU???? If you will receive Jesus as your savior and Lord like Paul the apostle did you too can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speak in Tongues, just as the Charismatic Apostle Paul did and I have done along with "Millions" of other Christians. Not sure who you "think" you are or what you "think" you represent, but that hatred in you does not come from Jesus, so guess where it comes from... Each and every single time in Acts when the "scripture" records the Holy Spirit came upon people who believed Jesus, they (ALL) spoke in Tongues, ouch, I know. Perhaps if you will receive Jesus and you will "believe" you too could be baptized in the Holy Spirit, just ask the apostle Paul who WROTE a lot of the New Testament said about that very subject: In Acts 19 Luke writes about the apostle Paul's meeting with some disciples in Ephesus and he asked them what I ask you, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" Once they admitted they did not even know Jesus much less receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Paul led them to Jesus, then baptized them in water AND THEN "laid hands" on them and they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and THEY ALL, not some, ALL spoke in Tongues! You can too if you will obey Jesus and believe. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 to "seek the best gifts" and he also said to "never" forbid to speak in Tongues! Oh I know that messes with your manmade theology you hide behind, but please note that Paul also said "if they are ignorant, let them be ignorant". It is a choice. I hope this can help with your anger problem and bad mouthing hiding behind user-............Obviously Paul never mentioned anywhere that the gifts will stop until Jesus Christ comes back for us. So there will be a lot of "liars" in heaven reaping a lot of good rewards based on your opinion of what a liar is.
As a Cessationist I have to say, Dr. Brown is the most articulate Continuationist I have heard. The big thing for me when it comes to this topic is look at this in the the totality of the Bible. How many times has God used man to directly perform a supernatural wonder and miracle? Not God doing it. But God allowing man to have the ability to do it? 3. You jave Moses. You have the Prophets. And you have the Apostles and a select few in the early church. And they always are paired with God wanting to confirm a message He is trying to say. With Moses it was "let my people go." With the prophets it was "What you have done has made God angry" with the apostles it was "Here is the good news of Jesus. And we can do this as well so you know what we say is true." The rest of scripture, while examples of miracles are certainly scattered throughout (Walls of Jericho, Shadrach, Meeshach, and Abednedo, Lot's wife becoming a piller of salt etc.) these were all, arguably, God directly intervening and performing the miracle Himself. When you see that pattern, the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit being performed by man makes alot more sense as a foothold in the history of the Bible. This also allows for Hebrews as the author is talking about past ages in Chapter 2 (See Tom Pinnington for that argument). I love my Continuationist brothers and sisters. And I know there are many like Dr. Brown who are true, henuine believers. But, I do disagree with him.
Dr. Brown is fantastic at debates. Knows exactly how to take control completely of the entire thing and avoids every single comment 😂 he definitely missed questions to Jim. I was an extreme charasmatic and prayed and prayed for God to send me sound teachers who preach the word and I was blessed to find Jim and others like him. Nevertheless, I enjoyed this and respect both these men! Thank you!
@@krazzykracker2564 I was involved in “deliverance ministries” and went to a church where we practiced and attempted everything. I struggled with my salvation for over a year because I was so confused why I had to force myself to speak in tongues, etc. I forced and faked everything in hopes I would one day “feel”
@@JorgeWaltersHey friend. The 37 minute mark really helped sum this up for me. The 35 minute mark is another. For me.. what I would struggle with trying to be a charismatic would be to not have ongoing adding to scripture.. Hear me out.. If God is speaking to me and giving me a revelation then that should be as authoritative as any scripture. That prophecy and revelation should be noted in the Bible. Now.. a few minutes later Jim says how I feel about this and that is that nobody is getting these miraculous healings today and the ones that make these claims are vague and shallow and undocumented. The ones that try to be claimed as legitimate have always been shown to be a hoax. That's just my own small... One person's experience, but as someone that is seeking it should mean something to all that read this nonetheless. I want this to be real, but it isn't happening like it was in the Bible. If it was then that move should be just as big as it was in scripture. That is why Im a cessationist. I believe the Holy Ghost still moves.. I believe God can do whatever He wills.. It's just the gifts... I don't see it happening today.
Jim started with the gifts were waning towards the end of Paul’s life as proof of him not being able to heal at will. At the end of the convo he says we can’t know if he tried to heal those he left sick. Contradicts himself big time there
Why is it difficult for our brother MB to understand or accept the truth that no one in the Pentecostal/charismatic circle today has those miraculous gifts that are normative like the appstles?
Good discussion. The hosts started out reigning Dr. Brown in, but as usual, Brown ended up insisting on his own narrative. Jim Osman did a great job of sticking with the Biblical narrative.
Actually, if you go back and listen carefully, you will note that Dr. Brown is the one who focused on Scripture, quoting numerous passages, while, Pastor Osman barely used Scripture, rather he used theological reasoning. Example. Dr. Brown pointed out that Paul commanded the believers to desire and put these things into practice. Pastor Orman said because there is no manual in the New Testament for the gifts, he doesn’t believe they are to continue. Dr. Brown shows that Paul expected the gifts to operate in the churches from I Corinthians and Thessalonians, while Pastor Orman reasons that because we have a closed cannon, the gifts have ceased, but doesn’t offer one verse of the Bible to support his claim. We could multiply examples, but…
@carld2796 Jim Osman is correct in is his evaluation. There is no instruction in the NT in HOW to receive spiritual gifts. So the issue now is biblical interpretation of 1 Corrinthians 12-14. You can site scripture all you want but you have to rightly divide the word of Truth to determine whether what was said is true.
@@Reformed1-e1cthere also isn't a manual in the NT for teaching, preaching, only who can or can't, so maybe if the gifts of the spirit have ceased then we need to say ALL gifts have ceased! We cannot cherry pick scripture.
@andrewmattiewalter the manual for teaching and preaching is found in 2 Timothy 2:15. Paul's epistles is also a commentary of the Old Testament. You notice whenever he says 'it is written' or 'for it is written..' he is referring to the Torah? It is patterned from the Old Testament. The saying goes--Old Testament concealed, New Testament revealed. The argument that Jim is making is that there is no believer on earth today that possess a supernatural spiritual gift that can wield, for example, gift of healing, at will according to that believers authority. He is not arguing that miracles have ceased. He's not a deiteist.
Giving false prophesy does not give God Glory. If you get one prophesy wrong you are a false prophet, the miracles should look the same as they did in the Bible, you do not see that today.
Surely he can, that is not the question, is he doing that through man now is the question? Every miracle being disguessed is not eternal anyway, Lazarus died again, every blind man healed will die, set your affections on things eternal.
Dr Brown keeps saying “we don’t claim people can heal at will”…. But if that’s the case, then how can you defend mass deliverance conferences, sessions, etc…
Mass deliverance or healing doesn’t mean you can do it at will. A movement God at a specific time that impacts a lot of people is different than healing anyone and everyone whenever
@@LD-cx4hw …so why would you schedule it on a certain date/time… and even charge money for it. Seems very deceptive to schedule it and even charge money to attend… if “you can’t “do it at will”. Additionally, if you DO schedule it… why would you not invite the evilest and most sickest and terminal patients… if your that confident in the healings/deliverances? Maybe it’s because you only want people to come that you know will abide in the deception… due to emotions, desperation, etc…. Kinda like a hypnotist does. It’s wired none of these things are apparent to the people in these movements, but they are so obvious from the outside looking in.
@@RandomBoxingGuy I have not and would not attend these, I would attend a "encounter" night at a local church I knew though. You seem to place different standards on the "sign gifts" than you do the "non sign gifts." Take you example for why do we charge to teach God's word on marriage at a marriage conference, and why not go door to door inviting broken marriages? Why hold youth conferences to teach kids the word of God and exhort them to live their life for Christ? Why not go to the roughest part of town and preach the gospel there only?
@@RandomBoxingGuy Also to address one point i didn't in my other response. Scheduling it allows for people to put aside distractions and actually make room for the spirit to move. How many times if you don't schedule time or have a routine to pray and read the bible do you do it well (meaning actually listening to God, and actually studying the bible vs reading it). Also would you schedule time to evangelize, we should do it all the time but i bet it would be more effective if we scheduled time to make room for God to move and go out and do his will and share the Gospel? It is somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison i get it, my point being though is in America today we have to make time for these things or else they don't happen, its unfortunate thats the case and we should desire to have all tim ebe Gods but for now scheduling purposeful time to seek God is necessary for 99% of Americans
I came out of cessationism at the age of 24. I speak in tongues, get visions and dreams, cast out demons, and see people healed when demons leave them, etc. Not going back!!
Do hurricanes obey you when you tell them “peace, be still!” ??? No you don’t, demons don’t fear you, or any human beings. They only flee Christ & the apostles who were given the gifts of Christs power to command demons to flee…apostles died almost 2 thousand years ago.
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I am a continuationist because i believe Scripture. However, I do believe one of the biggest problems that the charismatic camp has is they almost never call out all the foolishness and false teachers on the charismatic side.
Thank you my brother in Christ. I left Charismatic church because of what you just said. My biggest problem is that everyone is untouchable because of the " Judge not" and " do not touch the anointed" stunts. I did not hear Dr Brown trying to come up with any solution to this either.
As a cessationist I say THANK YOU
What's also strange is that the cessationists ONLY seem to call out charismatics. Regardless, it's pretty ridiculous, the infighting. Jesus prayed that we would all be one, and whether we like it or not, that means one with those who hold different doctrines. He didn't pray that we would all believe exactly the same.
You’re right
The enemy always tries to subvert and mimic what The Almighty does. I didn't belong to a charismatic church when I received the Holy Spirit and His gifts. I didn't belong to any church in fact until I was born again. I almost think I should write a book of my own as a regular person with the Holy Spirit to tell of all the miraculous fruit of my pitiful but blessed life to tell people that this is not a question of theology to dismiss, but an affirmation of being born again as scripture plainly says.
Interesting discussion - some of Dr Brown's arguments resonated with me even though I currently hold to a cessionist view. The problem is that even if some of his arguments are based on Scripture, the vast majority of charismania is peddling in false prophesies, false healings and especially false tongues. The latter just does not line up with the description given in Acts 2 and it is practiced in a manner that in contrary to the commandment given in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28.
I believe that prophesies on the personal level do still exist, where someone (not a "prophet") transmits a word to an individual which providentially orients them in the right direction. In church, the day before my previous wife died, she wrote something in her Bible that she said she wanted to shout out loud but she was too shy. I was shocked when I read it after her death. What she wrote has been of great comfort to me in my life : there was nothing doctrinally new in what she wrote, but it was pointing me to certain bibilical truths which should rule my life. On the other hand every single person I have seen who self-identifies as a prophet is a false prophet voicing their wishful thinkings.
I've also witnessed a miraculous healing where a pastor mentioned "someone" with a knee injury and he then commanded her leg to heal in the name of Jesus. We know that person : she had a really serious knee injury requiring a splint and crutches to walk, but we saw the same person dancing for joy that same evening. I believe that pastor has or had the gift of healing, but it is not something that he could will to happen. He had to be moved by the Holy Spirit to call out the person and the healing. The healing was a message to that specific person on that specific day and it is not a gift where he could decide to walk into a hospital and start healing people. I have also seen other pastors presumptiously commanding healing which did not happen. I think most of these pastors are moved by compassion but they are creating false hope.
Regarding the gift of speaking in tongues, I have never heard anything that corresponds to Acts 2. Also in certain congregations it seems that the majority have received this "gift" and nothing else which does not match the description given in 1 Corinthians 12. From what I have heard, I believe it is mostly learnt behaviour that people perform due to peer pressure and encouragement from the pastor. It would say that sometimes it is a genuine expression of emotion or gratitude, which would reflect a fruit of the Holy Spirit (for example joy) but not actual utterances from the Spirit. But why not just shout "Hallelujah!" ? What ever it is, it definitely does not edify the church as spiritual gifts are supposed to.
I believe these miraculous spiritual gifts are not sign gifts that identify an apostle or a prophet so in that sense I am cessationist. Also I believe that the gift is not something the person possesses on a permanent basis, but it is something that they are empowered to do or say at a specific moment. Some people may receive the gift and be able to use it on several occasions according to how the Holy Spirit wills it. Perhaps this is the way all the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 are supposed to operate.
Love this discussion that is way over due
I really pursued cessationism as Jim discusses it, but the belief was far too philosophical rather than scriptural. I had to finally admit, uncomfortably, that I was wrong about the nature of what prophesy was/is. It's not easy because of how many wacky people there are, but there's no doubt full scripture support for continuation with caution and a Bible seatbelt. Awesome discussion men.
so what exactly is prophecy according to the Bible?
💯perfectly said
I agree. Cessationism really appealed to me because of the abuses and lack of evidence I experienced growing up in a very charismatic home/denomination. I’ve concluded however, that the argument for cessationism can’t be made “sola scriptura” as I think think this conversation demonstrates.
@@knicholas8768 that is because you haven't seriously studied the scholarship from cessationists
their position is a lot more consistent with the bible than continuists
@@StacyHartChristianMusic Richard Gaffin shoots down the "best" charismatic scholars arguments
I am a hypercharasmatic and now am a reformed continuationism but cautious. Great discussion by both of them. I respect both their views. Both me and my sister have similar discussions.
I to to correct that .. i was a hypercharasmatic…
Hey man. What would be the purpose or what fo you mean you are cautious? From a perspective of believing the gifts are available, we are told to desire or covet the gifts of the Spirit. I am careful of who I follow but when it comes to the Spirit of God, that's something I want to faithfully pursue. What do you mean when you say you are cautious? What does that look like exactly?
@@paulselvindoss9557 I almost thought that you changed your views as you were typing that comment 🙂
Jim your patience was a pleasure to watch. Thank you.
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It seems like there are spiritual cessationists and thoughtful charismatics. These two camps really seem to mostly agree, but their differences are in the finer details.
I was saved in a continuationist church, but recently I've heard some very convincing teaching on cessationism (Apostolic gifts of tongues and prophecy, but miracles/healings definitely are definitely possible), which has convinced me through scripture alone what the Apostolic gifts were for and why they have ceased. Since I have accepted this biblical truth, my relationship with God has become so much sweeter and when I read His word it is so much more precious and potent! I also have come to realize that in my own life, the pentecostal/charismatic pastors I have had have not demonstrated love for the body of Christ in their ministries, but in contrast, the cessationist pastors have!
I have worked in ministry to the blind for around 40 years as a visually impaired person myself and my wife who is totally blind. I can tell you here in all the years I worked there and have still connections with this ministry, not one blind person has ever been healed miraculously. Not even in it's almost 70 years of existence has there been any miracles either of sight gain without human intervention.
So would that be an argument via experience?
Almost 12 months ago, I prayed for a woman who was needing surgery for foot pain and spot that was swelling. (We’re not Charismatics)
She was reading that she should come to the elders and have them pray. So we simply prayed. Next Sunday she was newly able to get through the day without having to leave. Still pain.
So we prayed again.
She returned to work and hadn’t had pain since. Surgery has been cancelled.
God doesn’t heal everyone in this lifetime. I myself had dehibilitating back pain for many years until I got surgery. But a couple years before surgery, I had an experience that changed my perspective. God healed me fully… but momentarily before simply asking me: ‘Will you trust me?’
I had never considered that in our society we long for miracles that are often simply a connivence. And in that environment, sometimes gives us the miracle of suffering. Doesn’t mean God can’t heal. He can. Honestly… He will one day. It’s just a matter of His timing.
The question is: what does God’s Word teach us? We won’t see miracles if we won’t walk in obedience. If we aren’t praying in faith. If we’re asking outside of His timing. But we ask knowing that sometimes He’ll respond in pretty amazing ways.. and because the a Bible says we should.
I believe God can miraculously heal, but now that we have the whole bible we walk by faith and not by sight.
@@mihaivesa7719 True it says '.. by faith and not by sight..' and that is in the context of Thomas. However, where is the scripture that says this in context to the completion of the entire scriptural cannon? Please think carefully before replying?
I have to muse, even in the time of Jesus and the apostles, I wonder how many of the world's blind ppl received their sight.
I know of one case in Cameroon. Don't use your human experience to limit the power of God.
This was good. I appreciate Brown and Osman. I’m clearer on the cessationist position now.
Thanks for watching!
You never find the Apostles announcing beforehand that they are going to hold a Healing Service in a few days' time. Why not?
Because they never knew when it was going to happen. They did not decide, and it was not within their control.
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
(1899-1981)
What? Acts 4: 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Do u read your bible or u depend on people for info?
@@jasonprashant6624so was it even scheduled? Do you read it carefully? Or are you skipping verses? Lol
@@angelovillaruz5052 The apostles have 0 percent to do with signs and wonders. It is, and always the Lord Jesus moving in their midst. That is why i quoted it
Great discussion. It's more apparent to me that Pastor Jim is more concerned with the "Charasmatic" movement that is seen on TV and online. Dr Brown is a great debater and great person to have these discussions with. The last 2 mins of the discussion in my opinion summed it up perfectly 🙏
Unfortunately, the charismatic church culture that Dr. Brown describes doesn’t exist. What we see are faith healers who claim that gift but who can’t heal (not just on tv-I’ve been there with folks in a small local congregation) and who work very hard to get money out of desperate people. And those are folks whom people like Dr. Brown and his friend Sam Storms support (especially Benny Hinn). We see also evangelists who are involved in egregious sexual sin and relational abuse, whose “ministries” are not brought to an end (Todd Bentley and now Mike Bickel). Just a clarification: cessationists don’t believe the works of the Holy Spirit have ceased but that because the ministry of Christ is established, the way He works through humanity has changed. God doesn’t change, but His methods can and do as He chooses.
That's because what's seen on tv is mainstream charismatic. And Michael Brown endorses them.
Greeting. Pastor Jim was concerned about charismatic stunts that they practice. He was also very careful on dwelling on order topic that will lead to a collapse of the conversation i.e. he seemed to avoid talking about the false prophets because ( I think) he knows he was going to end up making references by naming the people by name. That would have been a disaster on its own.
@@ajwerth7558I love that you make a false statement and act like it’s true. You obviously are more enamored with Benny Hinn and others like him, and really have never seen other charismatic circles.
Also it’s a lie that Dr. Brown and Sam Storms support Benny Hinn. You really shouldn’t say anything unless you know it’s the truth. Bearing false witness is a sin brother. And it’s not Christlike to make statements when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.
Dr Brown, unfortunately, endorses nearly all of the most infamous hyper-charismatics like Benny Hinn, the “Demon Slayers”, Sid Roth, etc… matter of fact it’s tough to find hardly any people he has NOT endorsed on the charismatic side. He won’t even call out Bill Johnson and Bethel…
I always feel like these debates miss the elephant in the room....which is...are the gifts that charismatics point to real or not?
The ENTIRE point of SIGNS and WONDERS was to authenticate!!
The Charismatic movement should, by definition, be self-authenticating. Are Sign Gifts for today? Well, where are the accurate prophecies? Where are the miraculous healings?...Has a single quadriplegic gottem out of a wheel chair? Has anyone actually spoken a human language they werent trained in? Has anyone made a specific, unmistakable prophecy?
I think its a waste of time arguing over whether or not we think the Bible says gifts are for today, unless we are ready to admit that the so called signs and wonders supposedly going in regularly are never ever recorded. Its totally bizarre.
It is SO disingenuous of Dr. Brown to always point to unverifiable miracles happening in "some small village" somehwere in the 3rd world. If Gifts are notmative than they should be going on all yhe time in the USA, but we mever do, do we?
they will redefine all the gifts in order to include gibberish, a partial healing and vague prophecies that are inaccurate to claim they still have them
I agree with you. That's why I remain a cessationist. The best evidence for continuationism just doesn't measure up.
I would suggest read New Testament scholar Craig Keener's book Miracles Today.
@@silver292 Keener's book is laughably bad 😂
@@silver292offer some examples from church history
Dr Brown has an incredible depth of knowledge into Scripture. I hope one day to have just a fraction of that knowledge. Great debate overall among Christian brothers who disagree on the finer points of doctrine!
So true. Going by the people he endorses, I wish his discernment matched up to his knowledge.
He should know better.
Then Dr. Brown, take Jim Osman with you to a few locations in the world and show him what you're saying. If you know of so much of this happening, then take Jim to some of those colleagues of yours you say have unusually high occasions of praying for and healing deaf people, and let him meet them, and spend time with them in their ministry capacity. Let him see what you say you keep seeing, sir. What is so hard about that?
exactly. it’s strange because that would truly be the humble thing to do. but instead certain people insist on debate because then we can just argue and figure out who sounds more convincing.
He doesn't want to see.
He won't even acknowledge the evidence documented and testified to.
@@John-Christchurch-NZ I don't believe that's the case. Besides, the said documented evidence would have been nice for Dr. Brown to explicitly present. Post links, send documents or something. It is easy to say "documented". Why "documented" seems so hard to present is what is suspicious.
@@VeritybyVersejust because we don’t see it here in the West does not negate what the Bible says. If the Bible says that we are to pursue those gifts then it can happen, otherwise why would we be commanded to pursue them? Biblically those gifts should follow those who believe, I think we are not seeing them because of our unbelief just like cessationism. It already does not believe the gifts from the outset.
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Jas.1.6-8 ESV
Once again a Clinic displayed by Dr Brown!
Great debate, thank you. To me it seems the charismatic view focuses on the sovereignty of man, cessationism focuses on the sovereignty of God
39ᐯ “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!
Having come from a cessationist fundamental Baptist background it seems to me cessationist search the scriptures....but charismatics search the scriptures and outside the scriptures for the supernatural God to drink deeply from His cisterns. Like David they are prone to following their heart.
I listen to cessationist critics Jim and Justin work and work and work to pick apart their charismatic enemies and I hear the Spirit of the Pharisees. If the critics would only critique w a tiny bit of humility to try and interact w their charismatic enemy redemptively...but I don't think that's as important as establishing themselves above their charismatic enemies.
It like the cessationist critics are missing some fruit, peace, joy, love!
Bingo!
As a partial preterist, it all works out. It began at Pentecost and ends at the end of the age, the old covenant age, when Christ returned to judge unbelieving Israel in the destruction of the temple in AD 70. The language of stars falling and the sun not shining is used in the same way in the Old Testament when God judges unbelieving nations.
Perhaps the debate is not have this or that gift ceased, perhaps the discussion should be how do we not idolize and abuse spiritual gifts. How do we protect the church from the liars and performers. That’s probably what we should be more focused on. I think MB & JO have a lot more in common than they care to admit. Great discussion. Humbling and makes one realize that we must be a lot more prayerful and spend a lot more time in scripture.
Personally I think abuse takes place because many churches and pastors don't possess someone with the gift of discerning of spirits.
I watched the 4 hour talk and would watch months of that.....we need to start thinking harder and getting back into scripture over and over
Great discussion!!! I believe Dr. Brown’s view is more biblically sound.
Even though he is best friends with Mike Bickle, affirms Benny Hinn, and loves almost all the nutty TBN false teachers? If he had any discernment I would agree with your assessment, but by association he has a hard time pulling his own view out of the weeds. He seems like a false teacher by association
Both are brothers in Christ! Awesome discussion
Thanks for watching!
I'm a cessationist, but dang I love Dr Brown's smile!!!
God bless you, brother!
Beautiful discussion!!!
Maybe you can answer my question from scripture alone- not from philosophical reasoning in line with a certain religion/faith
How is it possible to be born again with the indwelling Holy Spirit and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit? How do you deny the personal power of the one living with you?
Please help me to figure this out.
@@ShamelesslyRed The spirit is the one who grants the gifts. He could grant it when I ask, he could also choose not to grant it when I ask. It is completely up to him. So, you can have the holy spirit without the miraculous gift of healing, tongues, and so on. The only gift of the spirit that is granted to everyone is salvation, apart from that the sign gifts are granted "as the Spirit wills."
So, how you know the gifts have ceased is by observing those who claim they've been given the gifts and test them with scripture.
If they line up with the Bible, then yes... They haven't ceased. If they don't, then they've ceased.
I am a cessationist because when I look around among people who claim they've been given those gifts, I find out that they are all phony.
2020 was the year that proved that nobody today has the gift of healing or prophecy. And a careful study of 1st Corinthians 14 tells us that tongues are a sign to unbelieving Israel, and are intelligible languages, not the gibberish common among charismatics.
The Bible convinces me of Cessationism just by me looking at the world today and comparing it with what happened in the days of the apostles. When I do, it becomes clear as day that the Spirit has stopped granting those sign gifts today.
@@ShamelesslyRed Also, by simple observation I can tell that the spirit keeps granting the gift of salvation, because I see several Christians who grow in sanctification and holiness after asking for salvation.
So the gift of salvation has not ceased.... So, by this biblical mechanism of "testing the spirits" with scripture, I know for a fact that the sign gifts have ceased.
@@ShamelesslyRed Also, the moment you began to reason with a biblical topic, you already started dabbling with philosophy.
By the way, all the philosophies granted by Jim Osman in the bebate were all based on scripture. He never quited from another book.
If you truly want to challenge Cessationism, you have to do the dilligent work of wrestling with it, and not expect to be spoon-fed plain bible verses that say what you want without critical reasoning.
Happy New Year, by the way 🎊✨
@@melchysomba9690 no they haven't according to scripture. I'm living proof as well as countless others throughout the entirety of church history.
The Holy Spirit is fully active among God's own. I'm not even sure how this can be questioned.
With all due respect, I wonder if this is the representation of those who have a form of Godliness but deny it's power.
Well Dr Browns point about locking someone alone with the Bible and they wouldn’t think the gifts have ceased is wrong. I was saved when I turned 33 and in the first 3 years after I spent almost every part of every day reading the word and drawing as close as I could and just did Bible study after Bible study. And about that 3rd year after being born again, (being baptized with the Holy Ghost) I heard someone speak in what I would call fake tongues and I was like what is that!!! I was smiling but there was a about 20 of us in a zoom call fellowshipping and I was like what is wrong with this guy. We were praying for someone to be healed. Then a lady spoke and started to interpret what he said. And she said God said the blood decease was being healed and she will be made whole. But she died a few days later. The days leading up to that I searched and searched for that in the Bible and never found it, then when I was told where to find it I was like that is not talking about jibberish. But I prayed and prayed to receive the gift of tongues if that was in deed it. But never got it. I did receive wisdom and learned that, that was false. Also I was under the impression the gifts being spoke about in acts where for the apostles only and those at that time. Because when I read the epistles, I learned what I was supposed to do and it was nothing like De Brown says. Then I asked the Lord for guidance and the Spirit lead me down the road of discernment and now I can see how much Satan is at war with the church and not the world because he already has them. But he deceives the weak members of the church and leads them to a false Jesus.
You used your experience to nullify the gift of tongues. Because you prayed and didn't get the gift of tongues (that was your EXPERIENCE) that meant that the gift of tongues was not valid for today. Even though the scripture says "Do all speak in tongues?" (with the obvious answer being no, not all speak in tongues). And the idea that someone giving a fake interpretation of a tongue that didn't result in healing does not invalidate either the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues. There are a lot of kooky charismatics out there operating in fake gifts. There were always more false prophets than true prophets. I have been healed twice after a word of knowledge told me I would be healed--and they prayed for my healing of tha specific disease. But do I have any health issues that have not been healed? Yes, I do. That does not invalidate the gift called words of knowledge that result in healing (or anything else, like specific guidance).
@@ReLair88 You say my EXPERIENCE and then tell about yours lol. God can move and heal whom he wants. And when people pray like the word of God tells us to for healing. People can be healed if God so choices. But the Apostolic gifts being talked about are gone. They were to build up and lay the foundation. Now we go of the more sure Word of prophecy which is the Word of God. And Jesus tells us that this wicked and sinful generation seeks after a sign. And in the latter days this will be more and more. The gifts of the Apostles were to prove that they indeed spoke the will of God and were backed by God. It was for the unbelievers so that they would believe. Now its all about Faith and we have the bible which they did not. So can God do miracles and answer prayers today. Yes no one says that he doesn't. But there are zero people out there with the powers the Apostles had. And words of Knowledge are false because if God were to speak like that then you could right it down and add it to the bible, and the tongues in the bible are not babbling like a mad person, they are actual languages. Also you missed the entire point of what i was talking about.
@@interrupts165 You have been brainwashed to not believe the Bible.
@@ReLair88 what makes your experience true but no one elses?
That's not a Bible alone story, its one of your experience. You neglected to give a Scriptural basis for the cessation of the gifts. The closest you hot was saying they were only for the apostles, but that is not the Biblical position as I could give a dozen non apostles operating in Spiritual gifts.
One important point I believe we need to include more is that the miracles happening today in the charismatic movements looks like spirituality from other religions: The toungespeaking (as we see in eastern religion), the sporadic healing, the prophesies/forthtellers.
Can it be that this is new age synergy?
A second point is church history: Does it make sense that almost all of the devout Christian men and women through history has all overlooked such a huge essential part of faithful Christian living? Maybe they were more protected against the temptation?
If it doesn't point to Jesus it's false but all tongues, prophecies that lead us to grow in Christ are from God.
@@sunithagirish2139 devils ministers come as ministers of light and righteousness, and they claim the name of Jesus Kennith Hagge and Kennith Copland both point people to Jesus and claim Jesus but are demonically infiltrated for sure ! so we need to look past pointing to Jesus all the new apostolic folks all claim Jesus but are not teaching sound doctrine but doctrine of demons!!
Church history is not on the side of cessationists.
The cessationist claim is that the gifts already decreased towards the end of the apostolic age, and that they ceased when the last apostle died.
Yet we have testimony from the most reliable of the church fathers, who lived in the 2nd - 3rd century, who still reported of miracles happening. Justin Martyr mentions that the prophetical gifts remained with him at his time, that demons are being exorcised, and that Polycarp (the student of John) had received prophecies. Irenaeus, the student of Polycarp, mentions that demons are cast out, prophecies are being made, the sick are healed after laying of hands. Tertullian speaks of a woman who brought messages from God, and explicitly says that spiritual gifts like tongues are still continuing. Only from the 3rd - 4th century onwards do you start hearing reports about the gifts decreasing in frequency, and the fathers who report this (Origen most notably) attribute this to a lack of morality, not a questionable scriptural implicit inference as is done by cessationists today.
Beautiful debate. Thanks for hosting this, Nick and Ryan!
Thanks for watching Sam!
I grew up in a cessationist community and had been very skeptical with christians that claim miraculous gifts but after this debate and all Dr Brown has pointed out, i might be a continuationist now. I read and reviewed all the passages they presented and at least for me they all make more sense that all gifts still continues and there is no concrete passage that says otherwise. I am definitely blessed with this. Thank you.
The only way you can possibly be a continuationist is if you have a vague definition of tongues. An Acts definition of tongues will never do. Michael Brown cant define tongues from Acts...never could.
Amen!!!! Love it!!!
no cessationist claims all gifts are gone, just the revelatory gifts since God gave us the entire revelation needed
Thanks for watching Pablo! Glad you enjoyed!
then you got some explaining to do as to how the apostles were different from anyone else... and how people can give a divine revelation from God yet the canon is closed....
Please make live chat 💬 available after the live has aired upon replays.
Blessed to be a continuationist.
I was born Roman Catholic and after 35 years in the Catholic Church and I was born again on 24/10/1986 after hearing the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. God revealed to me that I was loved as Moses Abraham and Isaac and His word is true . I started reading the gospel of John and Acts. I knew that the believers would lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I’m still learning more daily and seeing more healing and miracles. Jesus never told us to pray for the sick but to heal the sick.
Come home brother we need more Charismatics in the Catholic Church
I agree totally with Dr. Brown. Not for any other reason except it agrees with scripture. I haven’t studied other men’s or women’s teaching, just the Bible. And that alone is the reason I have to agree with Dr. Brown. Well done Dr. Brown. Glad to have your voice. I pray Jim Osman becomes a continuationist. The gifts are a blessing. All of them. ❤
Thank you for this discussion.
Thank YOU
I wish the Cessasionist guys would come on Remnant Radio.
Me toooooo!!!!!
Would love to host a convo between remnant and a couple cessationists.
@@Bibledingers That’d be great. It’d be nice to see someone on the cessationist side actually deal with the scholarly side of things (the best I’ve seen so far has been Schreiner). I was pretty embarrassed to see that new documentary. Especially some of the teachers I highly respect. The Remnant guys are on like vid 6 of taking the claims piece by piece and they’re pleading for a real public conversation.
The Cultish guys have done it before, but they weren't very good.
@@kerisutt7579 agreed!
Thank you Dr. Brown, you asked pertinent questions that exposes the double standard in these discussions (eg. where are the limbs that grow, but they would never dare asked where did limbs grow in the scriptures). Great dialogue.
1:09:20 very legit good question. "Yess,but....."some of my colleagues"???
There is claims all over charismania ... and he goes on ignoring the question can he please gives us names of healers "he knows"?
Much of Brown's argument focused on the sign gifts not being connected to the Apostles specifically, but being normative. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, Paul says in relation to himself "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds." Jim missed an opportunity to show this, and Brown railroaded him after this.
I Cor. 12-14 and Thessalonians had nothing to do with apostolic sign gifts, but with the body in general.
In fairness, Brown is more familiar with this kind of discussion, having been in so many debates. I saw times as well that Jim Osman didn’t make certain points but I was considering that he is a local pastor, has a shepherds heart for his local body and I don’t think debates/discussions like this are really something he desires to achieve in life. Also, with Brown hitting him with so many points and not giving him a chance to respond (until the moderators stepped in more than once), I think these two things contributed to him missing certain opportunities. However, I do think he handled himself and his position very well. Yes, he missed some opportunities but overall I think it was good. I wasn’t disappointed.
That is not what Dr. Brown said. What he said was that they were not exclusive to the apostles (referring to the 12), but were evident in many people throughout the New Testament I.e. Stephen, Phillip, Agabus, Phillip’s daughters, etc. The apostles did have sign ministries, but so did many others, confirmed by Paul’s teaching that “to one is given by the Spirit…the working of miracles (I Cor. 12:8-11).
@carld2796 The argument is that the second letter was written later, and Paul is acknowledging the changing way in which the gifts are being distributed. The sign gifts are emphasised in the earlier writings of Paul, and then disappear in the later writings, at the same time that Paul makes reference to people like Timothy using medicinal methods to treat ailments.
For the record, I'm not 100% convinced with the cessationist position. I would describe myself as a biblical continuationist, because much of what I see the charismatic movement celebrate is unbiblical (such as forcing tongues, being slain, Mystic Meg prophecies). If the Lord uses an indiclvidual to do something miraculous which edifies the body, or brings people into faith in Him, then I'm shouting hallelujah. But the emphasis of the local church must always be gathering around the Word, and that's why I'd always go to Jim's church ahead of Brown's.
@@carld2796Nice eisegesis you got there
faith for healing, is having faith that God can heal them, not that we have faith God will heal them
Doesnt that way of thinking go against the words of Jesus ?
Mark 11:23-24 NASB1995
[23] Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. [24] Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
I think our prayer is most effective when we know the will of God and pray it.
And it does seem to me that Gods general will amd desire is to heal and restore. Just like with evanglesim, even if you are reformed you start from a place of believing its Gods will to save. You domt wait till He shpws you wheter one was chosem or not , you preach the gospel to ALL. I thinl we shpuld believe its God's will to heal unless He makes it known it isnt , like in the case of Pauls thorn, or the case of ananias and sapphira,etc.
Our faith does seem to be a huge factor. Thats why i believe james says to call the elders. They should have sincere faith and know the will of God better than the flock they keep watch over.
Just my thoughts. God bless you my friend!
bible.com/bible/100/mrk.11.24.NASB1995
Also , love believes all things , hopes all things.
We are to think on what is lovely and pure.
As good as God is and compassu9nate, and thst He woupd die for us WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, how much more woupd he heal a sinners body amd how much more a saints!
But i do acknowledge it may be His will not to in some cases(Herod, anaais and sapphira, etc, pauls blindness, at least until His timing),but i think we shouod stsrt from a positive place He will.
Does this make sense? Would you agree?
Osman demonstrates wonderful grace and patience. I’ll stop there 😅
I think it's simple. The (wacky) charismatics want glory for themselves, supposing that they have the authority to do supposed signs and wonders while the cessationists rely on God in continuous prayer, sometimes in their secret room, interceding and pleading with God and thus giving God all the glory acknowledging that apart from God, he can't even breathe, what more do a sign and a wonder.
Is that a biblical argument or based on your experience?
I was raised in hyper chrastmatic and I thank God every day delivering me from that man centered theology.
amen 🙏
Amen! Same here!
Honestly, Protestantism as a whole is man centered. Though some don't know this and are genuine in their faith.
What is the difference between Pentecostal and Charismatic ++😅
What was Jesus...a hypercharismatic or just a charismatic?
@ASKDrBrown Please share the healing videos and documentation.
Come to our 200 member church in Yaounde. Come and see them and see the medical proofs. These miracles happen
Does your church have a website I can check out?
What was common in Acts is NOT common even in Charismatic churches today. If it was it would happen EVERY gathering.
Their closing acknowledgment of one another was beautiful
Agreed. You can stand on either side of this issue and we are still brothers/sisters in Christ.
@@Bibledingers but who is more accepting of blatant deception which leads people astray from Dr Brown is of more openly supporting of guys like a Sid Roth which has naturally supernatural people on his show all the time. But the supernatural ability they possess is in their imagination because even Sid Roth says he's jealous of the guys that have all these abilities to do all these things they clain they can do wirh absolutely zero proof that he has on his show as they advertise their books with extra biblical ideologies that add stumbling blocks away from the Gospel of God. Js correct me if I'm wrong
It's often as if Brown doesn't even hear what Osman is saying--although I think it's more of a case that Brown doesn't like what he's hearing so he ignores it. How many times does Brown need to be told: Cessationists believe that God still performs miracles! That is not the argument, yet Brown tries to make miracles his bedrock argument. So frustrating!
th-cam.com/video/ogOVss3yCPI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mHV0iBcHrf_IQULk
I don't know, on the other hand Jim was reffering to round and round to crazy charismatics, who misused the gifts. Especially with healing...charismarics who wants to earn the glory when God heals someone. Surely there are charismatics who misused the gifts, I, as a charismatic (ex-cessationist!) am very critical towards these people, but it doesn't mean we should generalize, bcs it is not true for charismatics in general and it hurts many Bible based charismatics, just as myself! And yes I pray for healing when someone comes up to me and asks me and I'm using my gift of healing, bcs I was commanded to do so by Paul! But I'm humble enough to not to think it is by my power🤷♀️ I'm tired of this dumb assumptions of cessationists🙈 we just simply follow the Bible...1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy....etc
I am a Cessationist. I HAVE THE HIGHEST REVERENCE and HIGHEST VIEW of the HOLY SPIRIT! I know God works miracles daily. Every time someone is saved is a massive miracle. BUT having a low view of the HOLY spirit thinking he can be used as a stage prop to entertain the unregenerate at a whim by mere men is the most blasphemous thing ever!
Very well said and I completely agree!
God bless you!
Did Brown and Osman agree to stay away from some topics/names? It seems as if they were careful to stay away from the “Demon Slayers”, mass healing conferences, mass deliverance conferences, etc…
This was such a great debate. I feel like another four hours was needed 😂.
At least!
Me too. I wish there was a question an answer session.
@@ShamelesslyRed ya we like to do those. Unfortunately everyone’s time was limited :(
Thank you Nick!
This was an excellent discussion. I was a Charismatic but now have moved to Reformed. I am very grateful that the Lord brought me out of the manipulation of that movement. I appreciate Pastor Jim very much as I have seen him with Justin Peters on several occasions. A few take-always for me:
Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not? When Pastor Jim asked about whether prophecy was necessary Dr Brown replied that it was at which Pastor Jim replied regarding the sufficiency of scripture. This is a huge point for me. If the scripture is authoritative but is not enough then everything becomes subjective.
One last point that seems unrelated but goes to a mind-set, I know that Dr Brown believes in woman Pastors. If I lock myself in a room with just the Bible and read 1Tim2:12, won’t I come away with the fact that woman are not permitted to teach or have authority over men? Just a thought.
Also, what does Dr Brown imply about “going deeper” or “maturing” with respect to the exercise of gifts of healing? Did the Apostles have to mature and go deeper prior to performing the healings?
Thank you all for posting this. Looking forward to seeing the full discussion with Justin and Sam Storms.
The opposite of charismatic isnt reformed... its actually Cessationist. There are Reformed-Charismatic pastors. The opposite of Reformed AKA Calvinist i think would be Arminianism
"Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not?" - the simple answer to that question is yes. Many continuist believe that the arguments of cessationist is not correct exegesis of scripture but eisegesis of scripture.
The sufficiency of scripture is PRECISELY what makes prophecy essential and necessary. I find it surprising that this point seems to be flipped on its head.
It's almost like claiming that we don't need the Holy Spirit, because we already have Jesus as the perfect mediator. Any believer in Holy Scripture would reply that the Holy Spirit is necessary because Jesus, the perfect mediator, said the Holy Spirit was necessary, and this doesn't diminish one bit from His role.
In the exact same way, the role of prophetic gifts is established by Scripture, so there is absolutely no way it also detracts from its authority.
Can this be abused? Yes. Can the role of the Holy Spirit be abused so as to take precedence over the role of the Son? Yes.
Any sound doctrine can be abused.
But application of doctrine mustn't proceed from potential of abuse, but rather from obedience of Holy Scripture.
@@hkj8156 thank you for your response. I did in fact mean to to say I am not only reformed but cessationist as well. Also, If continuationists believe cessationists do not have valid understanding of scripture then that would imply they are infallible. Thanks again.
I didn't know he believed in women pastors...I'll have to look that up, that's wild!
Lots of what Brown says is looking at things from "experience" experiences can be deceptive. Plus being good friends with someone like Sid Roth says a lot
Cessationist pick and choose what gifts they are comfortable with. The assignment of Jesus Christ has never changed. The gifts of Holy Spirit have never ever ceased.
I’m in minute 35 and I have to agree with Dr. Brown that in certain personal matters we should seek the direction of God for our lives which means God will reveal His perfect will for our lives.
Otherwise, why even ask God for wisdom? 🤔🤔🤔
And we should verify that with the Word of God.
@@BibleStudywithVernon
Amen! God’s revelation of wisdom will never go against scripture.
Jim Osman addresses this in his book, God Doesn’t Whisper. I don’t think there was enough time in this discussion to go into great detail on every point but Jim addresses this very well in his book. Also, Greg Koukl addresses this in his blog at Stand To Reason. The article is titled: Does God Whisper. Again, Greg Koukl addresses this on his October 6th episode of his podcast at Stand To Reason, titled- Decision Making and The Will of God: The Biblical Model. Costi Hinn also addresses this in his new book, Knowing The Spirit.
@@apriljbuchanan3683 I’ll check it out. Can you reply with the link to that episode. 😇
Our personal experiences cannot trump the word of God
One thing I always find interesting. The common question always asked of “faith healers”, “demon slayers”, etc, that they never give a good response to is this … Why not go to the worst neighborhoods with murder, crime, drugs, prostitution and cast those demons out? There’s clearly a need for it. Or why not go empty out hospitals? There’s clearly a need for it. And the answer they always give is this…
“Well we don’t believe it works like that. We never know when or where the Spirit might move or show up. We can’t predict it, that’s why we don’t operate like that.” That use to suffice for me. HOWEVER, then I constantly see these “healers” and “demon slayers” scheduling and performing mass healing conferences, mass deliverance sessions, etc all over the country?!? Hmmm, I thought you didn’t know when or where it would happen, and that was your excuse to not go to hospitals to heal the sick and dangerous neighborhoods to cast out all of the demons??? Very interesting….
Dr Brown is picking on straws when kept focusing on Jim mentioning apostolic. Jim was referring to the apostolic authority of the apostles. It is always mentioned in the introduction of every letter to the church.
Dr Brown loves asking questions.
Michael Brown definitely won this hands down. The Word is the Word and not to what you believe or private interpretation
I appreciate this more than debates.
Thanks so much for taking the time to watch!
All the miraculous works that took place in scripture, we BELIEVE because they’re in the Scriptures. But what authoritates someone’s so called miraculous experience today? Why should anyone believe what they say?
Great discussion. Alot was learned
Thank you so much for watching
This debate only shows that doctrine of cessationism was never been taught in the Bible....
Wrong your lying just like con man brown
The claim of cessationists is solely that it is Biblical that the gifts stopped. It’s the genius of Dr. Browns wisdom and arguments. You want experiential proof they exist outside of your own relationship with God? Go to one of the churches that believe what is taught in the Bible. You will LOVE what Jesus called the promise of the Father.
Except , the Bible does speak on these things. Obviously you can’t just ignore context.
@ReverendElation bro2n is a outright lying fool
Yep prophecies no longer needed
Hebrews 1 : 1-3
Jim looks tense and uneasy but Michael is relaxed. He presented his points with Scriptures which are convincing. Jim has only opinions to prove his points. I believe if a person reads the Scriptures alone without anyone influencing his view, he will continue with the Scriptures and not become a cessationist. I was a cessationist bec that was taught in our church environment and never challenged it. As I looked through the Scriptures, it made more sense to me that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. We need the Spirit of God more to work through us in these evil end times.
Well presented from both sides. That said, it wouldn't be that hard to put this whole debate to rest. Just produce some evidence. It's unimaginable that there is never a cell phone on hand when these healings occur. Practically every charismatic church in the country has video capabilities.
And then there's the troubling fact that the charismatic movement seems to produce an inordinate number of false teachers, prophets, and healers.
Ive been thinking the same thing. Where is the video footage?
Here are a couple possible responses to your arguments. First I believe even most charismatics would concede that today, as was the case even in the New Testament, that there are some kinds of miracles which are lass frequent. Acts 19 says Paul did even "extraordinary" miracles, implying that even then the gift of some levels of healing and miracles wasn't simply an on command thing. The kinds of healings that would be easily seen on a camera are things like a missing finger being re-grown, that kind of thing, creative miracles. Something that even in the New Testament quite possibly was less frequent. A more common kind of healing would be somebody getting healed of some kind of disease or maybe a stomach tumor disappears. Something signifcant, but maybe not viewable on camera. That being said I believe there are countless examples of healings that can be medically verified (see Craig Keener book).
Also I think it could be argued that while God does sometimes allow things to be seen on camera, there is an aspect to miracles that still requires a certain amount of "hiddenness" or faith to believe. Even in Jesus' day, God could have done certain things which would have made every last person on earth believe intellectually in his missiahship/divinity. God could have given Jesus power to make lightning bolts come out of Jesus' fingertips, and the ability to make his breakfast appear miraculously every morning, and to continuously walk around in his glorified form (as at the transfiguration), or continuously walk on water for ALL to see. Though there were brief glimpses of some of those things on the part of some, generally speaking, Jesus did not continuously do that. He did a lot of crazy and amazing miracles to be sure. But even those usually had to be verified through personal testimony. Presumably why this was the case was because God wasn't primarily interested in getting people to believe in Jesus on just an intellectual level. He was interested in getting the lowly and humble to believe. He was more interested in the heart than the head. And Jesus also said some wouldn't believe even if they saw somebody return from the dead.
I guess my overall point is that the proof is there to be found, even with extraordinary miracles, for those willing to really search it out (similar to the way the understanding of the parables was hidden to some, and hey available to those who pressed into it).
That still leaves the issue of seeing a bunch of bad fruit from several charismatic churches. On that front I would simply say that's the same reason why thousands leave the church every day. Bad church experiences. Both charismatic and non charismatic. That shouldn't be a reason to give up believing in Jesus, just because there are plenty of bad apples. It might even be said that really really great churches are more the exception than the rule. But the principle still holds. And so I would say with the practice of charismatic gifts. The presence of abuse does not negate the presence of the genuine. And the mature should continue pressing in for the pure, even in the presence of much foolishness.
And medical records
@@rwalden87
Especially since it was unheard of until the faith healing salesmen in the very late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Dr. Brown took the win easily
Especially when our other brother was pressed on rather those in Corinth with the gift of healing could heal at will. He really couldn’t answer that
Good discussion. Dr Brown did a great job, really enjoyed the points about the apostle Paul. Lots of moving the goalposts from Osman.
Brown is a bully
@@toolegittoquit_001 I don't think he qualifies.
God is not that concerned with things that are not eternal, healing goes away, God set your affections on things eternal, name one miracle that is eternal except salvation.
Great Discussion… I came out undecided
Read the bible yourself and you won't come out as a cessationist.
Arguing that no one failed to heal in the time of Acts is like concluding Tom Brady never threw an incomplete pass after watching his highlight reel. Acts is a short book spanning decades of time. It doesn’t make sense to include such events.
Geez Dr Brown alludes the question with another fallacy. When the moderator asked about are there modern day healers, he quickly changes argument by asking the moderator if healing of limbs are recorded in Acts. That wasnt the issue. The issue is whether there are healers today and he has to qualify their legitimacy.
I have an observation to make. Nick had to intervene so many times to have Brown (why i have to be titled Doctor instead of my first name, I'll never understand) allow Osman to answer questions. I had a career working with tough individuals and there was this one moniker leveled many times on some individuals. "Mealymouth". Brown escalates frequently and overstates his points. This energy usually indicates a control of the conversation. I also hear a lot of redirecting the convo on tangents that actually create confusion.
As far as the references to healings and prophecies around the world by Brown, i ask: is there any place in scripture that tells us we have to believe all the incidents of other people claiming supernatural gifts to be saved? Is salvation dependent on anyone's testimony or claim to have had a supernatural occurrence? Just because people claim these types of occurrences doesn't mean we have to believe these things...either for salvation, OR so as not to blaspheme the Spirit. But claiming that the Spirit is saying something or doing something when He's not...is absolutely blasphemy.
I think our position should be to err on the side of caution, not in asumptive behavior that is characteristic of those who don't exercise self control and soundness in mind (including reasoning and objective critique and rational discernment) (the later parenthesized functions can't be dismissed as psychological bable, they are actually expressed in scripture).
We really need to raise the bar on understanding and defending these concerns od doctrinal stances and quit being lazy and unwilling to defend God's clearly revealed word to this planet. Words matter, Syntax matters, grammar matters, and Logic and reasoning matters. Lets quit being vague and confusing to our world about these issues.
Critical thinking is dismissed as unbelieve. But critical thinking ALWAYS leads us to question errors and falsehood.
Btw, I am a cessationist and today's hearing of Browns insistent techniques in badgering Osman taught me only one thing. Not that I should reconsider my cessationist belief, but that Osman has a lot of patience.
I wasn't always a cessationist. Until 4 years ago, i always allowed (in my reasoning) for charismatic and pentecostal in my tolerence. But when I finally concluded that I can't allow for the inconsistencies, it became resoundingly clear and clearer. I honestly believe there is a delusion in the equation that concerns truth. If we reject truth, we believe lies.
In my 67 years, i find the credibility waning in charismatic and pentecostal doctrines.
Im convinced of cessation of the sign gifts.
Too be honest, if charismatics were right, it would be quite underwhelming. As Jim pointed out, why aren't people having their sight restored and dead bodies being raised? There's a host of children in hospital beds right now- why not exercise such healing powers on them? As I said, it would be very underwhelming if Michael Brown was correct. I'm with Jim on this.
I literally witnessed people receiving their hearing two weekends ago. These people were followed up with and are still healed. But you don't care you've made up your mind...
@@andrewmattiewalter great. Now tell those who are endowed with such gifts of the spirit to head to every children's hospital in their area and make a difference.
The question I will ask is did our Lord Jesus raise all the death? Did he heal all the sick? No he didn't.
When reading the bible permit the holy Spirit to help you. God still heals today but because most people mind have been blindfolded they don't give him the chance to express himself.
A proof that there's power in the name of Jesus is that demons will always subject to it when it's called and healing the sick is expressing the power in the name of Jesus
Did Jesus heal all the sick? When he went to the pool of Bethesda where they were many sick people he healed just one man. If you go through scripture you will also hear Jesus saying your faith has made you whole you're heal because you have faith in the word of God.. He is a gift as salvation is also a gift.
Isa.53:3-5 he was wounded for our transgressions, bruise for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him but by his stripes we are healed.
Who are the we? It represents the children of God.
Matthew 8:17
[17]That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
He took my infirmities and bore my sickness upon himself. JESUS STILL HEALS TODAY!!!
One of my biggest problems with continuation is tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:26 says that if there is no interpreters of the tongues being spoken the speaker should be silent. I have never heard anyone interpret what is being spoken in tongues.
Cessationist: "You continuationists only talk about your experience"....... Also Cessationist: "I don't see it so it isn't true"......
So true. This happens FAR too often.
Yes... your claim will require evidence
@@bigtobacco1098 I think you missed the point...... the cessationists do the very same thing they accuse the continuationist of. They reject the biblical interpretation (which is what really matters) and then appeal to their own experiences as a "proof".... pot meet kettle.... it is never really about "evidence" in a scientific manner. When they do encounter a legitimate miracle, they just call it providence or sovereign acts instead of using the biblical description..... I don't care what they "call" it in order to maintain their doctrinal boundaries, but can we just stop all the unnecessary bickering within the body?
Where are these videos that document healing? Can someone please point me to them?
Im glad Dr. Brown is showing the fact his view is closer to scripture.
I am watching this now !! 🙏🏻❤️🔥🙏🏻
Jim has great patience. Michael Brown was being pushy throughout that discussion and not giving Jim the chance to speak. He may say that is how his mind works but he was not gracious at all. Thankful for Jim's conviction to stick with what the Biblical narrative.
I was getting aggravated by that and was grateful when the moderators stepped in more than once to point it out.
Wow. How biased can you guys be?
Not nearly as pushy as some of the cessationist teachers. This is just because you don't agree with him and you have itching ears for the cessationist doctrine and can't stand those who say otherwise.
@@skyeprophet3564You have to drag other people into the discussion to defend Brown's behavior? How about just sticking to this video?
You guys are awesome
No YOU are
Go Dr. Brown!
This was excellent! I have mad respect for Osman having a decent conversation.
My question for Osman though, in the cessesionist documentary they claim Christian that believe the gifts still operate are not really Christians and we believe in doctrine of demons. Does he agree with that statement?
I watched that movie 3 times. I don't recall that comment being said.
@@justinyoung2281 it was in the cessesionist documentary.
Brown loves the sound of his own voice. I don’t think this is a discussion but a lecture.
so… you can’t defend your view?
This is such a nasty thing to say about a sincere brother. You’re upset you cannot defend your position using scripture so you go to personal attacks.
Sadly, I observed this as well. Love Dr. Brown, but he does get a little rude and controlling rather than being humble. This is not an ad hominem attack, but an observation.
“I’ve never seen. I’ve never seen” Lord, help him see. 🙏
De brown needs to have a “conversation “
with Justin Peters
I’d love to see that
Dr. Brown did apparently have a conversation with Justin Peters and it went on for three hours. Dr. Brown said he was looking forward to the discussion airing soon.
Justin peters turn down the offer. Maybe fearing he will lose badly
@@reubenravidass Did you listen to his 30min video on why he turned it down?
@@carld2796yeah. Brown and Storms met with Peters and another guy. I hope it’s not edited down.
Peter’s and Brown have a recorded 3 hour discussion that was meant to be used for American Gospel 3. Brown did not like how it was used and now wants it only to be released as an uncut interview. No one has run from a discussion Brown just complained about how he was presented after MULTIPLE revisions by the producer per his request. He still then backed out
Good debate. This is however where eschatology matters. In Acts 2 when it refers to "the last days", it is automatically assumed to mean the end of the physical cosmos or the world. Rather than it being just that, the end of the Judaic age. With Jerusalem being destroyed, along with the 2nd temple, that was the end of the "last days". We are now in the Millennium. However, when taking the pre-mil position, being a cessationist honestly makes no sense because according to that system, we are still in those "last days." It's so common to insert ourselves into the text rather than letting the text speak for itself.
In fact, Jim asked Mike that question and Brown answered it saying that those with the gifts have a greater frequency to certain gifts beyond that seen when God responds to the prayers of His people. Certain people, not all have higher rates of say healing than others.
So there are different levels of Christians ?
Great 😐
I think the question is really, why do you desire the gifts? And for most people the answer is, it comes out of the wickedness of our own harts. And how we could best use those gifts to prove ourselves right. If it were only to glorify the name of the most high, then there are plenty of other way we can do that. But I believe sadly most who desire the gifts are more like Simon the sorcerer than a Paul or Peter or James. Which is why we don't see more of those things. The words "earnestly desire" brings connotations of for the right reasons, and not just wanting it because you think your supposed to have it.
As a former Charismatic ( I use to give words of knowledge, prophecy and etc) now a Cessationist I thought Jim didn't really address the specific Scriptures Brown brought up. He also didn't define prophecy, tongues and words of knowledge. While I'm thankful Jim took the time to have this opportunity to discuss this important topic he just got out maneuvered by Brown who is a seasoned debater.
And maybe his points were more biblical. I’ve heard much more polished cessationists, but the main points are the same Jim tried to defend.
Always we hear "I used to be in such and such a movement" as a "qualifier" that you somehow are in some kind of superior position to debunk that position. This is a total fallacy. There are no "former charismatics" either you had the gifts of the Holy Spirit and still have them, though you have been led to somehow deny it by some deranged mental twisting from the enemy or you never really had the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the first place and only thought you did. At least I am honest and say I was never a Cessationist. I am glad I never denied God's gifts of the Holy Spirit nor the Holy Spirit who gives them. Without examples of your words of knowledge, prophecy I am not in a position to judge which, but If I am in a position to hear what you said, I will also be able to define where you are coming from.
It's because Brown continue to sidetrack the argument with multiple points. He's very good at manipulating the conversation to make his argument convincing. What I wish the narrators would do more is stop Dr. Brown and allow Jim to respond. Brown is not a good debater as he thinks. He gets away with it with red herrings and straw man.
@@Reformed1-e1c The only evidence I see of red herrings and straw men is from Jim.
@@skyeprophet3564 can you show time stamps or site examples please?
Some things brother Jim stated that i differ with.
--He stated something about needing the use of gifts to be place and time specific in Scripture. If applied to prayer, then prayer has cessed.
--He stated that gifts were only for Apostles yet Paul wrote to the church that he spoke in tongues more than you all, thus saying the church spoke in tongues.
--He stated that the Apostles healed all who came to them, that claim is not supported in Scripture.
*
I believe gifts continue and that brother Jim puts unwarranted demands on the proof.
Name one place, just one, where the Bible says these spiritual gifts ceased as of today? You cannot!
You charismatic people are a bunch of liers, you have been decived
@@Felipe2023Lopez I assume your not a Christian, and I assume you could care less about the truth of God’s word. I have never been called “Charismatic” before but in its true definition, I am guilty.
Perhaps you need to accept Jesus as your savior and Lord, they ask Him to help you with that anger problem. I find that if I will repent where the Bible convicts me then life serving Jesus is less stressful.
It is difficult confessing something you do not have, isn’t it? Ask Jesus to save you, He is merciful and full of grace. And if you will believe His word He will fill you with the baptism of the Holy Spirit JUST as He did each person in Acts that scripture says the Holy Spirit came upon them and they all spoke in Tongues.
Must warn you though, it is a serious thing to pray in the Spirit or as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, in Tongues. It will build you up spiritually as Paul also said. Of course until you do obey in this you do not have to be concerned about Paul’s correction to the Corinthians while in service and teaching is going on.
To your Paul writes as he did in Acts 19: have you received the Holy Spirit after you believed? And when they received they ALL spoke in Tongues without any interpretator or sinners around to hear them speak. It was the evidence.
I know, a real bummer when the word of God makes you “angry”, as I said just repent. If the fur on a cat is raised from rubbing it the wrong way, just turn the cat around…you know repent.
So “CHARISMATIC” by definition is what the Apostle Paul was, and all the disciples after Pentecost. I believe in content in this group of people, so thank you for the compliment.
Prove it didn't stop
@@fvdj2204 That has to be one of the silliest things I have ever heard. That is like saying prove Jesus Christ never existed when He did and nowhere says He stopped existing. Just admit you do not know what the Bible says and you could care less. There are millions, literally millions of people and testimonies proving the gifts existed after the Apostles. But of course you could care less about truth. You have an "opinion" that is your god so forget what the Bible says. Paul told us to "seek the best gifts" in referenced to the spiritual gits and not once did anyone write it ended. So proof is Paul said they started and continued. So simple!
@@Felipe2023Lopez YOU WHO? I guess you mean liars? First of all this is the first time I have been called "Charismatic" but hey according to its actual definition, guilty!!!
Easy to call someone not face to face a liar, and not use your "real name", but most people who do not know Jesus do not care what His word says about anything they want to do contrary to it.
Let me introduce you to Jesus Christ since you must believe in a different god than me, He (Jesus), God, gave His life for your sins. If you will repent of yours and accept by faith His atonement for you that He paid on the cross, you can be born-again as I and many millions of others have done.
Charismatic, funny how you use this word. Paul the Apostle and all the disciples after Pentecost were "CHARISMATICS" based on its actual definition. So where does that leave YOU????
If you will receive Jesus as your savior and Lord like Paul the apostle did you too can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speak in Tongues, just as the Charismatic Apostle Paul did and I have done along with "Millions" of other Christians.
Not sure who you "think" you are or what you "think" you represent, but that hatred in you does not come from Jesus, so guess where it comes from...
Each and every single time in Acts when the "scripture" records the Holy Spirit came upon people who believed Jesus, they (ALL) spoke in Tongues, ouch, I know. Perhaps if you will receive Jesus and you will "believe" you too could be baptized in the Holy Spirit, just ask the apostle Paul who WROTE a lot of the New Testament said about that very subject:
In Acts 19 Luke writes about the apostle Paul's meeting with some disciples in Ephesus and he asked them what I ask you, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" Once they admitted they did not even know Jesus much less receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Paul led them to Jesus, then baptized them in water AND THEN "laid hands" on them and they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and THEY ALL, not some, ALL spoke in Tongues! You can too if you will obey Jesus and believe.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 to "seek the best gifts" and he also said to "never" forbid to speak in Tongues! Oh I know that messes with your manmade theology you hide behind, but please note that Paul also said "if they are ignorant, let them be ignorant". It is a choice.
I hope this can help with your anger problem and bad mouthing hiding behind user-............Obviously Paul never mentioned anywhere that the gifts will stop until Jesus Christ comes back for us. So there will be a lot of "liars" in heaven reaping a lot of good rewards based on your opinion of what a liar is.
As a Cessationist I have to say, Dr. Brown is the most articulate Continuationist I have heard. The big thing for me when it comes to this topic is look at this in the the totality of the Bible. How many times has God used man to directly perform a supernatural wonder and miracle? Not God doing it. But God allowing man to have the ability to do it? 3. You jave Moses. You have the Prophets. And you have the Apostles and a select few in the early church. And they always are paired with God wanting to confirm a message He is trying to say. With Moses it was "let my people go." With the prophets it was "What you have done has made God angry" with the apostles it was "Here is the good news of Jesus. And we can do this as well so you know what we say is true." The rest of scripture, while examples of miracles are certainly scattered throughout (Walls of Jericho, Shadrach, Meeshach, and Abednedo, Lot's wife becoming a piller of salt etc.) these were all, arguably, God directly intervening and performing the miracle Himself. When you see that pattern, the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit being performed by man makes alot more sense as a foothold in the history of the Bible. This also allows for Hebrews as the author is talking about past ages in Chapter 2 (See Tom Pinnington for that argument). I love my Continuationist brothers and sisters. And I know there are many like Dr. Brown who are true, henuine believers. But, I do disagree with him.
Dr. Brown is fantastic at debates. Knows exactly how to take control completely of the entire thing and avoids every single comment 😂 he definitely missed questions to Jim.
I was an extreme charasmatic and prayed and prayed for God to send me sound teachers who preach the word and I was blessed to find Jim and others like him.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed this and respect both these men!
Thank you!
Im curious what do you mean you were charismatic? Can you explain? Did you used to speak in tongues and now admit you was just faking it?
@@krazzykracker2564 I was involved in “deliverance ministries” and went to a church where we practiced and attempted everything. I struggled with my salvation for over a year because I was so confused why I had to force myself to speak in tongues, etc. I forced and faked everything in hopes I would one day “feel”
@@Mkv539 you should never have forced yourself to fake speaking in tongues. Now you throwing the baby out with the bath water
Love u both. (LOVE) ❤
Way to stick to the word Jim. Good on the BibleDingers guys on moderating
I saw exactly the opposite, Brown always tried to stick to the Bible, Jim gave his opinions.
Did Jim score a point backed up by Scripture? What are you referring this to because I must have missed it?
@@JorgeWaltersHey friend.
The 37 minute mark really helped sum this up for me.
The 35 minute mark is another.
For me.. what I would struggle with trying to be a charismatic would be to not have ongoing adding to scripture..
Hear me out..
If God is speaking to me and giving me a revelation then that should be as authoritative as any scripture.
That prophecy and revelation should be noted in the Bible.
Now.. a few minutes later Jim says how I feel about this and that is that nobody is getting these miraculous healings today and the ones that make these claims are vague and shallow and undocumented.
The ones that try to be claimed as legitimate have always been shown to be a hoax.
That's just my own small... One person's experience, but as someone that is seeking it should mean something to all that read this nonetheless.
I want this to be real, but it isn't happening like it was in the Bible.
If it was then that move should be just as big as it was in scripture.
That is why Im a cessationist.
I believe the Holy Ghost still moves..
I believe God can do whatever He wills..
It's just the gifts...
I don't see it happening today.
@@JorgeWalters and if you believe that, you’re obviously not paying attention
Jim started with the gifts were waning towards the end of Paul’s life as proof of him not being able to heal at will. At the end of the convo he says we can’t know if he tried to heal those he left sick. Contradicts himself big time there
Brown seems to purposefully ignore and even feign ignorance about the fact that the individuals he knows exaggerate the deceptive signs and wonders.
Just as Jim purposely ignores Scripture evidence and history to support his untenable belief?
Why is it difficult for our brother MB to understand or accept the truth that no one in the Pentecostal/charismatic circle today has those miraculous gifts that are normative like the appstles?
Hey Brother Nick (Moderator) quit cutting Dr Brown off, let the discussion breath just a little bit.
Jim would not get a word in if he didn't interrupt Brown. Michael did most of the talking throughout the entire 1 1/2-hour discussion.
Dr Brown on the bases of scriptures not ideas
Good discussion. The hosts started out reigning Dr. Brown in, but as usual, Brown ended up insisting on his own narrative. Jim Osman did a great job of sticking with the Biblical narrative.
Actually, if you go back and listen carefully, you will note that Dr. Brown is the one who focused on Scripture, quoting numerous passages, while, Pastor Osman barely used Scripture, rather he used theological reasoning. Example. Dr. Brown pointed out that Paul commanded the believers to desire and put these things into practice. Pastor Orman said because there is no manual in the New Testament for the gifts, he doesn’t believe they are to continue. Dr. Brown shows that Paul expected the gifts to operate in the churches from I Corinthians and Thessalonians, while Pastor Orman reasons that because we have a closed cannon, the gifts have ceased, but doesn’t offer one verse of the Bible to support his claim. We could multiply examples, but…
Exactly...and that is why he backed out of AG3...Brandon Kimber did NOT allow him to do that.
@carld2796 Jim Osman is correct in is his evaluation. There is no instruction in the NT in HOW to receive spiritual gifts. So the issue now is biblical interpretation of 1 Corrinthians 12-14. You can site scripture all you want but you have to rightly divide the word of Truth to determine whether what was said is true.
@@Reformed1-e1cthere also isn't a manual in the NT for teaching, preaching, only who can or can't, so maybe if the gifts of the spirit have ceased then we need to say ALL gifts have ceased! We cannot cherry pick scripture.
@andrewmattiewalter the manual for teaching and preaching is found in 2 Timothy 2:15. Paul's epistles is also a commentary of the Old Testament. You notice whenever he says 'it is written' or 'for it is written..' he is referring to the Torah? It is patterned from the Old Testament. The saying goes--Old Testament concealed, New Testament revealed. The argument that Jim is making is that there is no believer on earth today that possess a supernatural spiritual gift that can wield, for example, gift of healing, at will according to that believers authority. He is not arguing that miracles have ceased. He's not a deiteist.
I believe that God can do anything and can use a vessel to bring glory to Himself!
Giving false prophesy does not give God Glory. If you get one prophesy wrong you are a false prophet, the miracles should look the same as they did in the Bible, you do not see that today.
Surely he can, that is not the question, is he doing that through man now is the question? Every miracle being disguessed is not eternal anyway, Lazarus died again, every blind man healed will die, set your affections on things eternal.
Dr Brown keeps saying “we don’t claim people can heal at will”…. But if that’s the case, then how can you defend mass deliverance conferences, sessions, etc…
Mass deliverance or healing doesn’t mean you can do it at will. A movement God at a specific time that impacts a lot of people is different than healing anyone and everyone whenever
@@LD-cx4hw …so why would you schedule it on a certain date/time… and even charge money for it. Seems very deceptive to schedule it and even charge money to attend… if “you can’t “do it at will”. Additionally, if you DO schedule it… why would you not invite the evilest and most sickest and terminal patients… if your that confident in the healings/deliverances? Maybe it’s because you only want people to come that you know will abide in the deception… due to emotions, desperation, etc…. Kinda like a hypnotist does. It’s wired none of these things are apparent to the people in these movements, but they are so obvious from the outside looking in.
@@RandomBoxingGuy I have not and would not attend these, I would attend a "encounter" night at a local church I knew though. You seem to place different standards on the "sign gifts" than you do the "non sign gifts." Take you example for why do we charge to teach God's word on marriage at a marriage conference, and why not go door to door inviting broken marriages? Why hold youth conferences to teach kids the word of God and exhort them to live their life for Christ? Why not go to the roughest part of town and preach the gospel there only?
@@RandomBoxingGuy Also to address one point i didn't in my other response. Scheduling it allows for people to put aside distractions and actually make room for the spirit to move. How many times if you don't schedule time or have a routine to pray and read the bible do you do it well (meaning actually listening to God, and actually studying the bible vs reading it). Also would you schedule time to evangelize, we should do it all the time but i bet it would be more effective if we scheduled time to make room for God to move and go out and do his will and share the Gospel? It is somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison i get it, my point being though is in America today we have to make time for these things or else they don't happen, its unfortunate thats the case and we should desire to have all tim ebe Gods but for now scheduling purposeful time to seek God is necessary for 99% of Americans
Its not everyone you preach the gospel to that gets saved. This applies to the gift as well.
I came out of cessationism at the age of 24. I speak in tongues, get visions and dreams, cast out demons, and see people healed when demons leave them, etc.
Not going back!!
😂😂😂 mmmkay
Do hurricanes obey you when you tell them “peace, be still!” ??? No you don’t, demons don’t fear you, or any human beings. They only flee Christ & the apostles who were given the gifts of Christs power to command demons to flee…apostles died almost 2 thousand years ago.
Which is why i want nothing to do with you. False teaching or following false teachers
Yeah Jesus said ALL who believe there’s a lot of “believers” who don’t actually believe ironically
@@johornbuckle5272no you want nothing to do with what Jesus commanded to do see mark 16