TheCanadianBubba , I’m not sure what kinda pornagrafite comment or content , did I just stumble in to one of them slinger sites all kina Inkrippted messages like that brick layers club you Herat about but don’t actuly known anyone that was a member?
@@Kalashnigoon dunno...looks like some kind of Scandinavian courtship ceremony. Perhaps we should just keep the film rolling and see who does what to whom.
Bunch of super-pro`s with vans full of tools etc spent weeks on this Deutz, thought it was a wreck. Then this guy shows up with dirty hands, bare minimum of tools and a camera.... Figures the problem that same day while making a video about it. Gotta love this channel! Please continue with the "testing the vehicle after fixing it", would have loved to see the transmission-swapped truck in action too :)
That BF6M doesn't have return hoses on the injectors like the ones we had in the Atlas machines. The injectors go in at an angle and so the nozzle also sprays at an angle. If the injector is turned the wrong way, it sprays the fuel toward the cylinder wall instead of toward the center of the piston. They will knock and usually smoke too because they don't burn the fuel as well. We had purchased a new engine from Deutz that knocked and smoked on intial startup and the Deutz mechanic found the injectors were installed turned at 180 degrees from where they were supposed to be.
Hey Rich, on that style injection system if you look on the bottom of the exhaust manifold there should be plugs for each cylinder. You then pull them plugs and then use a temp probe and you balance the engine with Sims by balancing the heat out each port at a certain rpm. Same tractors have the same setup. Theirs is at 1000 rpm and you set the outlet temp at about 900 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't know what Deutz is. They might just need to be balanced. Maybe this helps. Love the videos. Good luck.
They're all over the place in underground equipment in the US, too. I'm trying to build out my fleet as 100% Deutz for the reasons you mentioned, as well as to streamline the inventory of parts and filters.
I used to make a lot of money fixing Deutz engines after things like this happen. The numbers engraved on the injection pump are that pumps specific port closure specification when tested on the test stand. that you use with the EP code, and camshaft code on the serial number tag. This EP code is the depth of the bore (or installation depth) from the deck of the block face to the roller tappet surface the shim rides in. The roller tappets are standard height, but are different diameters per engine model, so you have to follow the correct chart when you do the shim calculation. For example a 1013 with an "A" code cam would use 143 for the Lo portion of the shim calculation. Once you enter the injection pump number into the calculation with the EP code it will give you the size of the shim needed to make the injection pump "time" correctly. So say you have an "A" cam with a EP code of 366, we know the pump you pulled was a 68. Doing the math (I don't know your actual EP code, just an example!) that injection pump would require a 2.44mm thick shim. If they have a 2.45mm available I would use it, but if it skips from 2.4, to 2.5mm on the shim I would round down to the 2.4mm shim. Index the pump correctly to get the correct rack travel (usually 17.1 to 17.3mm and you are good to go. These engines also split tips really easily on the injectors when the fuel water separator is not working correctly. Really the separate injection pumps are no different than a single injection pump body when it comes to setting the fuel timing. It appears that someone just changed the delivery valve on the pump too. These are real easy engines to work on.
Thanks for that. I sent all my numbers in and they told me the thickness of the shim which was the one I had. Now, to clear this up, did I delay the timing or advance it by reducing the width of the shim?
Ya, no problem. You did delay the timing by using a thinner shim as now the cam has to move just a little more to hit the opening point of the delivery valve in the injection pump. One thing I used to see all the time (actually more than once on the same engine in a Sennebogen!) is the injection pump was timed in the block incorrectly. Meaning it was rotated so the pump was held open a little more thus injecting more fuel to the cylinder than the others. I know you checked it with a can, but it doesn't take much to do this. I just sent you an email to your info@, let me know if you get it. I attached a PDF with some good information so hopefully it doesn't get sent into your spam folder.
@@matthewherzig6887 i realize this thread is a little old but my 2006 gehl skid steer with deutz 4fm2011 has a fuel knock and i think it might be the same issue. ive had several mechanics work on it and they say the deutz motors just sound like that which is bs. i think my problem is in the number cylinder. do you have any literature to troublshoot?
I spent 8 years as the Warranty Engineer for Deutz here in Atlanta. That was WAY before 2000 so I've never seen that particular engine model before. Can't count how many engines came in with holes in the block from a thrown rod and fresh oil and a new (dry) filter installed! AND a spun rod bearing from being run low on oil! If a Service Dealer sent a tech out he MAY have had Deutz training (we had a class every week, and I taught the "how to spot warranty vs. abuse/neglect/misuse part) but there were some real squirrels working at Service Dealers. Man. I could write a book about all the crazy shit people tried to pass of as a factory defect. I can count the *true* factory defects I saw in 8 years on one hand and not run out of fingers!
Heh I was there for training in 99 (might have been 98). So yea this is too new to me also! Anyhow all the running deutzs I ever saw and went thru for rebuilds , the lower end bearings were usually mint. That's because the block is so stiff it doesn't flex all over and kill bearings. It'll have a ton of hours and some idiot didn't tighten an air filter correctly or missed an air intake leak and they get "dusted". Im a big fan of em,idk about the newer ones but the older stuff put in some serious work.
Heh I was there for training in 99 (might have been 98). So yea this is too new to me also! Anyhow all the running deutzs I ever saw and went thru for rebuilds , the lower end bearings were usually mint. That's because the block is so stiff it doesn't flex all over and kill bearings. It'll have a ton of hours and some idiot didn't tighten an air filter correctly or missed an air intake leak and they get "dusted". Im a big fan of em,idk about the newer ones but the older stuff put in some serious work.
Lots of argument about why a thinner shim delays timing. In my mind it's because the cam now has to rise higher (further along the lobe) before the injector will fire. Makes sense to me.
Does this mean that it also will push less fuel through that injector?... If so that cylinder should be out of balance, power and torque to the rest of the cylinders.
@@stanRmeyer That's why he was saying that x cylinder with the delayed timing doesn't have to work as hard. Also why he said 'The problem isn't really fixed.' With that being said, it was still incredible to witness the knowledge, even if it common sense.
@@stanRmeyer i don't think so. The determinating factors for the amount of injected fuel are: fuel pressure, cam lift height and the orifice size of the injector nozzle holes. By making the shim thinner the injector is fired a fraction of a seconde later.
Occurs to me that this is a symptom and not the cause, I'm actually wondering if the camshaft that drives the injector pump has the no 1 cam slightly misshapen, or maybe in the wrong spot very slightly, in short, manufacturing fault maybe? Or perhaps the case hardening wasn't quite right and it's worn unevenly or something, but sounds like the camshaft might be the culprit.
@@jonathanvanginkel3849 ya my dad has a terex telehandler with a deutz engine in it and my dad's place is up a very steep hill and the telehandler is able to push overloaded trucks up the hill that other wise wouldn't make it. Their engines are amazing
Well sir we found the noise in your mini van.... We used our patent fault finder technology to narrow down where exactly it was coming from..... You Need not worry it has been resolved.
See lots of arguments on weather a thinner shim advances, or retards the timing, but it depends if the shim goes between the pump and the engine block, or between the pump actuator, and the cam follower.
I have alot of experience with deutz, this can happen if the block isn't machined at the correct height causing either very advanced or late timing requiring adjustment shims. I actually really like this design as you don't need to send a single pump off to get flow tested and balanced you just adjust each cylinder. This design is for " catastrophic failure" modes of a single cylinder still allow the engine to run.
So ive done some work to some smaller 4 cyl deutz with the same fuel system, it looks the same, if it is. There is a calculation that's is done to determine what selective shim to use. On the valve cover plate there are code numbers for each cylinder, and then there is a engraved marking on each unit pump. The calculation is made using both of those numbers. So if u take a pump out of hole 6 and put in 1 the shim may be a different size for the same pump because its in a different hole. There are many different size shims available from deutz. Also the pumps need to be clocked once installed with the rack in fuel shut off. If you replace a pump, u have to see it first to get that engraved number, do ur calculation for the shim, order the correct shim and then assemble. hope this helps
@@douganderson7002 one thing is, so many people have had their hands in it, it can be hard to figure out what was fucked with. I'd go on what he said, it needs a teardown eventually and find what's up.
I occasionally do this sort of work on stuff the supposed experts wont touch and its always enjoyable when you can fix something they cant simply because you were willing to not do what the book said as they kept doing and getting zero headway with. I enjoy that you did a video of it too! I used to share my solutions on online forum up to about 2 - 3 years ago when stuff just got so toxic it wasn't fun anymore. Turns out there are too many supposed expert technicians crybabies in the world now who really dont like ti when someone can show them up by proving there's a fast simple easy and very cheap fix to a problem they think need piles of someone else's money thrown at!
Some good info! We have a couple of air cooled deutz engines on the cranberry marsh I manage. One is a 6 cylinder and is an irrigation motor the other is a 3 cylinder that runs a blower on our fertalizer spreader both have been great engines.
I've got a pair of EIMCO LHDs (scooptrams for y'all Canadians) that run on air-cooled Deutz engines; they're -W units with indirect injection for underground use. One started right up after being parked for ten-plus years, the other has some kind of starter issue that I haven't had time to diagnose.
Diesels are actually so much easier to work on than gasoline engines with spark ignitions. Because there not as popular here in the states no one takes the time to learn them so they seem like a big mystery.
Idk where your at but my gf drives a diesel, Chevy Cruze, I drive a inline 6 5.9 Cummins, so does my grandfather, father, 2 brothers, I work on them, buy and rebuild, build, sale them for a living, heavy equipment and big rigs mainly, alot of vehicles on the road are diesels unless your just in a tree hugger city lol. Most places around everyone runs diesel trucks, exp work trucks, company trucks, now cars are usually gas, but even now theres alot more diesel cars in todays world. Like I said. a Chevy Cruze, 15 model.
@@markrich3271 I worked for a company that had various diesel power stationary equipment. From slightly bigger than truck engine to quad turbo v16s the size of a car. They even had some old 16v71s. The v12 cats and big inline 6 cummins were the most common though. They had full time mechanics, but they always brought in experts when it was time to tear down one of them big bastards.
@@ranchertrapperdieselbuilds3632 Diesel-powered cars accounted for about 3 percent of total auto sales in the United States, which is considerably lower than 50 percent in Europe [LUSSENHOP 2015].
I operated an 825 for about a year. The engine would do it's own thing sometimes, no one could figure it out. It had over 10,000hrs. The operator after me was harder on it and it was started everyday with ether and that was the mechanics fix.
wet nozzle is a real concern. i'd spray tested it. on these you can do a spill timing using fuel or air though you'd have to make your own timing marks. you could compare #1 to #6. though rare i have seen cams ground wrong. but also in this case a mis -machining on the block could do it too. gotta love working outside on this stuff. (sarcasm intended)
awesome video!! I just love your solution, sanding down the shim to set the pump nozzle timing proves that you are an awesome field technician - thumbs up from germany :D
the engine might had a faulty injector once that flooded the nr 1 cyl abit and compressed the piston rod couple hundreds of a millimeter, that will give that cylinder its own wrong ignition timing compared to the correct factory settings. shaving the injector shim could then have equalized the wrongly running cylinder. ive had that problem occuring on a car diesel where someone had messed up the inejctor so it had bent a rod, that also made that one cyl knock when accelerating.
I messed around with a an air cooled stationary deutz diesel. Strange engine, the injection pump was fuarked, gummed up with rotten diesel. IIRC it was all of 7 liters and rated for 60 horsepower.
So many "mechanics" these days are taught to use and believe the 'diagnostic' machine without knowing anything about the engine. Thinking about the engine and knowing how it works can solve problems faster than it takes to setup the tester. Of course that means experience instead of classroom training on tester without ever working on the engine itself, long distance/remote diagnosis.
Another awesome video. If you look carefully at the 3:20 mark you can actually see gears spinning in his ear canal. Is there anything you can't work on?
Like you getting to operate the equipment you work on, a perk of being a US Army helicopter mechanic was we got to go on the test flight, didn’t have to fly on them while they were being shot at!!!
Came across something similar on an Isuzu powered 25kVa genset. Same pump-line-nozzle system on it, little different way of doing things but does make sense. Ended up with 2 pumps that weren't making enough pressure to crack the injector. Advised customer, and would not be surprised if it went to Ritchie Bros.
You should Etch on the washer minus the number of thousands less it is!... Maybe the block was originally machine wrong or faulty materials in the block... Great diagnosis I'm amazed at how easily and quickly you came to that conclusion... Fantastic, swap parts around instead of replace parts!... Great job! Excellent mechanic!
I operated an 825 for a little over a year, it had the same engine. That engine is a finicky piece. I dont know how many guys looked at it, it was constantly having phantom fueling issues. The engine would fall on its face all the time to the point where you'd just have to shut it down. Nothing could be found and then all of sudden it would wake up and run totally fine again. Starting it was another constant problem. Our knock was nowhere near that bad, it always had clean exhaust though.
Interesting injection system.. sort of like what Detroit had been doing with their unitized injectors since 1938 (but more complex and over-engineered). At least on Detroits you can simply pop the valve cover and adjust the pushrod for each injector to determine timing, and adjust the delivery by the individual rack adjustment. You had it figured out even before you started changing injectors and pumps from hole to hole, but it IS good to be thorough.😉 I'm still trying to figure out where that shim would go in the pump assembly, since if you were to grind the shim under the pump it would advance the timing (i.e. closer to the cam lobe), and cause it to knock even worse... *EDIT:* Never mind, I watched this again and saw the metal button on the bottom of the plunger, and I'm assuming the shim goes under that button to push it more toward the cam lobe (similar to OHC engines that have lifter 'buckets' that go over the valve stem and spring). Those pump assemblies on that Duetz look like a never-ending source of problems with all the o-rings to keep the fuel in the proper channels on the common rail, and no roller lifter to prevent wear to the contact surface of the pump plunger (at least none that I could see on the unit itself). They sure didn't do themselves any favors by going water-cooled. The old air-cooled Duetz's were actually pretty reliable and something along the lines of what the classic Volkswagen would have been if they had made a diesel!😁
someone did a really nice job in fixing/upgrading that young orange peel grapple ... looks like a 2-yard grapple ... the backside of the tines being enclosed is an aftermarket deal... I do it the same way - enclose the backside of the tines with AR400 (same material as the rest of the grapple (minus the teeth those are AR500 or forgings depends on if you do a OE rebuild or aftermarket fix)) than Dual shield flux cored them on .... and chances are stuff hold ! you can sleep at night and don't have to come back and fix a bunch of stuff all the time ... If you have ever seen how they move fully loaded rail cars in the scrapyards with those material handlers or throw school buses around with those grapples ... and "pull" a motor out of the school bus in a few seconds by "shaking" the rest of the school buses off ... you know what I am talking about.
3:15 I think they r shimmed in order to be able to adjust the minimal clearance between the cam lobe and whatever it presses in the pump. Looks they couldnt get it more complicated. Is this knocking actually a play between lobe and pump and as they r big it is loud. In my opinion it is not to delay or advance timing but to reduce play. Play makes knock and of course it affects timing
A trick my dad taught me was put your ear on the handle end of a large screwdriver and put the head end on the part that you suspect is knocking. It works every time. Good work though.
Paccar and mack used to use a very similar injection system but the pumps had electrical solenoids on them to control timing rather than shims like this one
These Deutz engines are also in Volvo diggers. we rebuild at least one each month most of them have con rod bearings go bad last one we did had a bad lobe on the camschaft from one of the pumps destroyed a lifter and parts had gone trought the oilpump ect... needed new cam new , one con rod and a new oil pump....
Another issue with the pump that gives a similar early injection problem is a weak delivery valve spring. Not sure if you would feel it on the Deutz with such short high pressure lines but on a pump with longer lines you can feel the HP line 'buzz' on the cylinder with a weak spring.
The cheat way to test these specifically on this series would be to loosen the line at the injection pump with the engine idling. If the fuel "snaps" out of the loosened line with pressure the pop-off pressure of the spring in the injector is probably fine. If the fuel flows out like a faucet and no squirting, well the injector is most likely junk. That was my standard test before pulling the injectors in the field to pop test them on the back of the service truck! Really helped accurately diagnose the engine issue in a timely manner.
NEED more of these types of videos. heavy equipment/ diesel stuff will always trump the Audi. though it is badass car can't wait to see that things final outcome either.
This makes me think about my jeep. I had a leak at injector 1 and it was knocking because the intake valve was over engorged with gas.... same knocking sound !
I went through training in like 99 for my generator job, but this things too new to me hahaha. Seems a little like a VW 2.0PD fuel system (pump duse). As long as they were set up right , they run like a Swiss watch for a long time. Guys harp on rebuild time because its tedious compared to a Chevy 350.
I’m not familiar with these engines, I’m sure they’re great when they work, but more moving parts IMO just make them a PITA when it comes to diagnostics to a problem. Good job as alway on the fix.
One of my coworkers put a motor in one of these. It actually blew up my first day on the job, the operator came on the radio and just said there was oil everywhere. Anyways he left all those little plastic caps in the hydraulic hoses when he hooked everything up to the various pumps and whatnot. I had to go pull all the hoses back off and look for any caps that got left behind. The boss was PISSED
I have a sneaking suspicion the engine "runaway" at one time and "one" connecting rod has a set of stretched bolts. And yeah, might have checked the bearings with only a visual inspection, but did not do a measurement of the housing bore of the rod w/a dial bore gauge and micrometer on the crankshaft journal to verify the tolerance.
The engines with returnlesd injectors may be mounted 180degrees wrong, and as they are mounted at an angle, the spray pattern on the piston bowl will be wrong often cause smoke and hard running...
Maybe the stack up measurement for the pump is what caused your knock? I would be curious if you measured all the parts in the pump currently? and what is the min/max of all measurements of all parts according to the assembly/machine print of each part? I use too build injectors for Cat C7/9 during research and development and we found that the stack up was at the maximum dimension and the mating part was at the minimum dimension and even though we assembled them by hand we kept cracking the nozzle sleeve causing all types of failures from knocks to common rail High Pressure damage to foreign material damage including the pump.
Haha I saved the 2.0 PD from the wife's Passat, to swap into my mk1 golf. it was pretty impressive in that tank passat. I'll be happy to get it running bug free before tearing it apart for mods. I've got another project or two ahead of it, but eventually.
![If We Can Drive It, They Won't Scrap It... Lord of the Dump Bees [EP1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CRIOm89UTeM/mqdefault.jpg)
Swapping parts from hole to hole... freebie. Shaving factory spacer... freebie. Showing up the factory tech... PRICELESS
TheCanadianBubba , I’m not sure what kinda pornagrafite comment or content , did I just stumble in to one of them slinger sites all kina Inkrippted messages like that brick layers club you Herat about but don’t actuly known anyone that was a member?
Allen Sandven what are you even saying
@@Lewis-co7pq I think he's trying to say something about freemasons but... I don't know what
@@Kalashnigoon dunno...looks like some kind of Scandinavian courtship ceremony. Perhaps we should just keep the film rolling and see who does what to whom.
When the guy who shows up to fix your machine has hands that are already covered in black, you know you got the right guy.
If you're not filthy you're not rich.
@@jeremydale7263 you may not be rich even if you are filthy, but filthy hands are a sign of clean money
I know but that is his saying lol
Or you know... You wear gloves cause you rather not destroy your hands. The ladies dont like it.
Little metal slivers fucking suck, but ive never found a good enough thin glove
Bunch of super-pro`s with vans full of tools etc spent weeks on this Deutz, thought it was a wreck.
Then this guy shows up with dirty hands, bare minimum of tools and a camera.... Figures the problem that same day while making a video about it.
Gotta love this channel!
Please continue with the "testing the vehicle after fixing it", would have loved to see the transmission-swapped truck in action too :)
That thing would make lS swapping things a breeze just grab it and toss it in the vehicle and it just works
We swapped a 5.4 into a Prelude with one in 5 minutes
@@DEBOSSGARAGE honda prelude? Lol
That BF6M doesn't have return hoses on the injectors like the ones we had in the Atlas machines. The injectors go in at an angle and so the nozzle also sprays at an angle. If the injector is turned the wrong way, it sprays the fuel toward the cylinder wall instead of toward the center of the piston. They will knock and usually smoke too because they don't burn the fuel as well. We had purchased a new engine from Deutz that knocked and smoked on intial startup and the Deutz mechanic found the injectors were installed turned at 180 degrees from where they were supposed to be.
Hey Rich, on that style injection system if you look on the bottom of the exhaust manifold there should be plugs for each cylinder. You then pull them plugs and then use a temp probe and you balance the engine with Sims by balancing the heat out each port at a certain rpm. Same tractors have the same setup. Theirs is at 1000 rpm and you set the outlet temp at about 900 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't know what Deutz is. They might just need to be balanced. Maybe this helps. Love the videos. Good luck.
Andrew Satkowiak Mack had a system that was almost the same.
@@beckywatt5048 mercades and DAF-PACCAR use the same injection system and VW "PD" TDI engines are the same concept
@@jasonriddell I have a PD that I'm working on right now, the TDIs don't have the shim/exhaust temp target like he's saying.
where can one buy same ag tractor parts ?
Aircooled Deutz Diesel Engines are great, easy to fix, reliable and very common here in germany.
They're all over the place in underground equipment in the US, too. I'm trying to build out my fleet as 100% Deutz for the reasons you mentioned, as well as to streamline the inventory of parts and filters.
I've never been on a jobsite where there wasn't at least 1 baby. Usually its the guy with the clipboard who's "in charge" lol.
This channel is great. Dont see stuff like this anywhere else.
I used to make a lot of money fixing Deutz engines after things like this happen. The numbers engraved on the injection pump are that pumps specific port closure specification when tested on the test stand. that you use with the EP code, and camshaft code on the serial number tag. This EP code is the depth of the bore (or installation depth) from the deck of the block face to the roller tappet surface the shim rides in. The roller tappets are standard height, but are different diameters per engine model, so you have to follow the correct chart when you do the shim calculation. For example a 1013 with an "A" code cam would use 143 for the Lo portion of the shim calculation. Once you enter the injection pump number into the calculation with the EP code it will give you the size of the shim needed to make the injection pump "time" correctly. So say you have an "A" cam with a EP code of 366, we know the pump you pulled was a 68. Doing the math (I don't know your actual EP code, just an example!) that injection pump would require a 2.44mm thick shim. If they have a 2.45mm available I would use it, but if it skips from 2.4, to 2.5mm on the shim I would round down to the 2.4mm shim. Index the pump correctly to get the correct rack travel (usually 17.1 to 17.3mm and you are good to go. These engines also split tips really easily on the injectors when the fuel water separator is not working correctly. Really the separate injection pumps are no different than a single injection pump body when it comes to setting the fuel timing. It appears that someone just changed the delivery valve on the pump too. These are real easy engines to work on.
Thanks for that. I sent all my numbers in and they told me the thickness of the shim which was the one I had. Now, to clear this up, did I delay the timing or advance it by reducing the width of the shim?
Ya, no problem. You did delay the timing by using a thinner shim as now the cam has to move just a little more to hit the opening point of the delivery valve in the injection pump. One thing I used to see all the time (actually more than once on the same engine in a Sennebogen!) is the injection pump was timed in the block incorrectly. Meaning it was rotated so the pump was held open a little more thus injecting more fuel to the cylinder than the others. I know you checked it with a can, but it doesn't take much to do this. I just sent you an email to your info@, let me know if you get it. I attached a PDF with some good information so hopefully it doesn't get sent into your spam folder.
@@matthewherzig6887 i realize this thread is a little old but my 2006 gehl skid steer with deutz 4fm2011 has a fuel knock and i think it might be the same issue. ive had several mechanics work on it and they say the deutz motors just sound like that which is bs. i think my problem is in the number cylinder. do you have any literature to troublshoot?
I spent 8 years as the Warranty Engineer for Deutz here in Atlanta. That was WAY before 2000 so I've never seen that particular engine model before. Can't count how many engines came in with holes in the block from a thrown rod and fresh oil and a new (dry) filter installed! AND a spun rod bearing from being run low on oil! If a Service Dealer sent a tech out he MAY have had Deutz training (we had a class every week, and I taught the "how to spot warranty vs. abuse/neglect/misuse part) but there were some real squirrels working at Service Dealers. Man. I could write a book about all the crazy shit people tried to pass of as a factory defect. I can count the *true* factory defects I saw in 8 years on one hand and not run out of fingers!
Heh I was there for training in 99 (might have been 98).
So yea this is too new to me also!
Anyhow all the running deutzs I ever saw and went thru for rebuilds , the lower end bearings were usually mint.
That's because the block is so stiff it doesn't flex all over and kill bearings.
It'll have a ton of hours and some idiot didn't tighten an air filter correctly or missed an air intake leak and they get "dusted".
Im a big fan of em,idk about the newer ones but the older stuff put in some serious work.
Heh I was there for training in 99 (might have been 98).
So yea this is too new to me also!
Anyhow all the running deutzs I ever saw and went thru for rebuilds , the lower end bearings were usually mint.
That's because the block is so stiff it doesn't flex all over and kill bearings.
It'll have a ton of hours and some idiot didn't tighten an air filter correctly or missed an air intake leak and they get "dusted".
Im a big fan of em,idk about the newer ones but the older stuff put in some serious work.
Lots of argument about why a thinner shim delays timing. In my mind it's because the cam now has to rise higher (further along the lobe) before the injector will fire. Makes sense to me.
Does this mean that it also will push less fuel through that injector?... If so that cylinder should be out of balance, power and torque to the rest of the cylinders.
@@stanRmeyer That's why he was saying that x cylinder with the delayed timing doesn't have to work as hard. Also why he said 'The problem isn't really fixed.' With that being said, it was still incredible to witness the knowledge, even if it common sense.
@@Porkyping243 thanks, yes I do recall that now I guess at the time he said it in an indirect way it didn't click with me.
@@stanRmeyer i don't think so. The determinating factors for the amount of injected fuel are: fuel pressure, cam lift height and the orifice size of the injector nozzle holes. By making the shim thinner the injector is fired a fraction of a seconde later.
Occurs to me that this is a symptom and not the cause, I'm actually wondering if the camshaft that drives the injector pump has the no 1 cam slightly misshapen, or maybe in the wrong spot very slightly, in short, manufacturing fault maybe? Or perhaps the case hardening wasn't quite right and it's worn unevenly or something, but sounds like the camshaft might be the culprit.
Deutz does things differently is a understatement..lol
Yea but they're a heck of an engine
@@jonathanvanginkel3849 ya my dad has a terex telehandler with a deutz engine in it and my dad's place is up a very steep hill and the telehandler is able to push overloaded trucks up the hill that other wise wouldn't make it. Their engines are amazing
Fintan low and slow baby all that torque
Well sir we found the noise in your mini van.... We used our patent fault finder technology to narrow down where exactly it was coming from..... You Need not worry it has been resolved.
So you turned the magnet on then
See lots of arguments on weather a thinner shim advances, or retards the timing, but it depends if the shim goes between the pump and the engine block, or between the pump actuator, and the cam follower.
I have alot of experience with deutz, this can happen if the block isn't machined at the correct height causing either very advanced or late timing requiring adjustment shims. I actually really like this design as you don't need to send a single pump off to get flow tested and balanced you just adjust each cylinder. This design is for " catastrophic failure" modes of a single cylinder still allow the engine to run.
Yeah I can see the benefits of this design
Good job ! This is what separates methodical thinkers from plain ol’ parts changers.
Hello Duncan, I like your last name Sir. Greeting from Ohio
OMG. Thanks for the Laugh with the baby.................You are one Hell of a Mechanic and all-around Good Person.
This kind of crap is why I love this channel. Perfect combo of knowledge/reasoning, practical work and fun
So ive done some work to some smaller 4 cyl deutz with the same fuel system, it looks the same, if it is. There is a calculation that's is done to determine what selective shim to use. On the valve cover plate there are code numbers for each cylinder, and then there is a engraved marking on each unit pump. The calculation is made using both of those numbers. So if u take a pump out of hole 6 and put in 1 the shim may be a different size for the same pump because its in a different hole. There are many different size shims available from deutz. Also the pumps need to be clocked once installed with the rack in fuel shut off. If you replace a pump, u have to see it first to get that engraved number, do ur calculation for the shim, order the correct shim and then assemble. hope this helps
Ive touch some old and small 6 cylinder models, but never had to go too deep into them. Never knew it worked this way
At that point it's better off as scrap
@@douganderson7002 one thing is, so many people have had their hands in it, it can be hard to figure out what was fucked with.
I'd go on what he said, it needs a teardown eventually and find what's up.
So cool to see a proper mechanic work! Genuine troubleshooting and problem solving. No parts changer as you would see among most auto shops today.
That explains so much. I used to have a diesel Mercedes with a fuel knock and lack of power. My timing must have been off.
I occasionally do this sort of work on stuff the supposed experts wont touch and its always enjoyable when you can fix something they cant simply because you were willing to not do what the book said as they kept doing and getting zero headway with.
I enjoy that you did a video of it too! I used to share my solutions on online forum up to about 2 - 3 years ago when stuff just got so toxic it wasn't fun anymore.
Turns out there are too many supposed expert technicians crybabies in the world now who really dont like ti when someone can show them up by proving there's a fast simple easy and very cheap fix to a problem they think need piles of someone else's money thrown at!
as a 1st year diesel tech student this type of trouble shooting is very helpful. Thanks a bunch!!
As soon as you said the rods were checked and found to be in good condition, I had a pretty good hunch it was a fuel timing issue
Yup I knew it too. We must be fucking geniuses
Some good info! We have a couple of air cooled deutz engines on the cranberry marsh I manage. One is a 6 cylinder and is an irrigation motor the other is a 3 cylinder that runs a blower on our fertalizer spreader both have been great engines.
These videos are killer!! I learn more about diesel machines and trucks every time I watch.
I've got a pair of EIMCO LHDs (scooptrams for y'all Canadians) that run on air-cooled Deutz engines; they're -W units with indirect injection for underground use. One started right up after being parked for ten-plus years, the other has some kind of starter issue that I haven't had time to diagnose.
This is why the diesel boys get paid more
Diesels are actually so much easier to work on than gasoline engines with spark ignitions. Because there not as popular here in the states no one takes the time to learn them so they seem like a big mystery.
Never seen myself working on semis or liking them. Now im 20 working on semis and i fuckin love em.
Idk where your at but my gf drives a diesel, Chevy Cruze, I drive a inline 6 5.9 Cummins, so does my grandfather, father, 2 brothers, I work on them, buy and rebuild, build, sale them for a living, heavy equipment and big rigs mainly, alot of vehicles on the road are diesels unless your just in a tree hugger city lol. Most places around everyone runs diesel trucks, exp work trucks, company trucks, now cars are usually gas, but even now theres alot more diesel cars in todays world. Like I said. a Chevy Cruze, 15 model.
@@markrich3271
I worked for a company that had various diesel power stationary equipment.
From slightly bigger than truck engine to quad turbo v16s the size of a car. They even had some old 16v71s. The v12 cats and big inline 6 cummins were the most common though.
They had full time mechanics, but they always brought in experts when it was time to tear down one of them big bastards.
@@ranchertrapperdieselbuilds3632
Diesel-powered cars accounted for about 3 percent of total auto sales in the United States, which is considerably lower than 50 percent in Europe [LUSSENHOP 2015].
I operated an 825 for about a year. The engine would do it's own thing sometimes, no one could figure it out. It had over 10,000hrs. The operator after me was harder on it and it was started everyday with ether and that was the mechanics fix.
Nice methodical process to that fix Rich. Baby scene was hilarious LOL cheers
Good work! Troubleshooting has become a lost art.
wet nozzle is a real concern. i'd spray tested it. on these you can do a spill timing using fuel or air though you'd have to make your own timing marks. you could compare #1 to #6. though rare i have seen cams ground wrong. but also in this case a mis -machining on the block could do it too. gotta love working outside on this stuff. (sarcasm intended)
awesome video!! I just love your solution, sanding down the shim to set the pump nozzle timing proves that you are an awesome field technician - thumbs up from germany :D
the engine might had a faulty injector once that flooded the nr 1 cyl abit and compressed the piston rod couple hundreds of a millimeter, that will give that cylinder its own wrong ignition timing compared to the correct factory settings. shaving the injector shim could then have equalized the wrongly running cylinder. ive had that problem occuring on a car diesel where someone had messed up the inejctor so it had bent a rod, that also made that one cyl knock when accelerating.
I messed around with a an air cooled stationary deutz diesel.
Strange engine, the injection pump was fuarked, gummed up with rotten diesel.
IIRC it was all of 7 liters and rated for 60 horsepower.
So many "mechanics" these days are taught to use and believe the 'diagnostic' machine without knowing anything about the engine. Thinking about the engine and knowing how it works can solve problems faster than it takes to setup the tester. Of course that means experience instead of classroom training on tester without ever working on the engine itself, long distance/remote diagnosis.
its not rare wher i work... we are still running straight 6 air cooled motors from the 70s... and they run 15 hrs a day
Another awesome video. If you look carefully at the 3:20 mark you can actually see gears spinning in his ear canal. Is there anything you can't work on?
Good job, tech's work by the book, but you have the real knowledge
This channel is awesome!!
The fact that it’s in Canada is even better. Cheers from a fellow heavy duty mechanic from Alberta.
Great troubleshooting ethics. . More people should do that style of troubleshooting.
Like you getting to operate the equipment you work on, a perk of being a US Army helicopter mechanic was we got to go on the test flight, didn’t have to fly on them while they were being shot at!!!
Sweet brother we mechanics have our own twisted sense of humor .that had me lol trying to pick up that doll. 🤣👍🏻
Came across something similar on an Isuzu powered 25kVa genset. Same pump-line-nozzle system on it, little different way of doing things but does make sense. Ended up with 2 pumps that weren't making enough pressure to crack the injector. Advised customer, and would not be surprised if it went to Ritchie Bros.
Oh my god, dude you rock! I expected you to pick up the tire...oh, get a lapping stone, better than sand paper, but you know that.
The love and care he showed that baby tugged on my strings!👶
Man, this really makes me wanna get into the diesel mechanic trade. Lots if work for it in Australia with all the mining etc
You should Etch on the washer minus the number of thousands less it is!... Maybe the block was originally machine wrong or faulty materials in the block... Great diagnosis I'm amazed at how easily and quickly you came to that conclusion... Fantastic, swap parts around instead of replace parts!... Great job! Excellent mechanic!
I operated an 825 for a little over a year, it had the same engine. That engine is a finicky piece. I dont know how many guys looked at it, it was constantly having phantom fueling issues. The engine would fall on its face all the time to the point where you'd just have to shut it down. Nothing could be found and then all of sudden it would wake up and run totally fine again. Starting it was another constant problem. Our knock was nowhere near that bad, it always had clean exhaust though.
Good Diag Chap well done and it looked like Fun
Deutz engines are pretty good. I seen one running a oil well in the middle of the summer with a hole in the block still ticking along.
Friend had a Michigan loader for years could hear knock a bloock away bought a junk one for parts engine never blew .🤗
This is by far one of your best clip Rich.
Interesting injection system.. sort of like what Detroit had been doing with their unitized injectors since 1938 (but more complex and over-engineered). At least on Detroits you can simply pop the valve cover and adjust the pushrod for each injector to determine timing, and adjust the delivery by the individual rack adjustment. You had it figured out even before you started changing injectors and pumps from hole to hole, but it IS good to be thorough.😉 I'm still trying to figure out where that shim would go in the pump assembly, since if you were to grind the shim under the pump it would advance the timing (i.e. closer to the cam lobe), and cause it to knock even worse... *EDIT:* Never mind, I watched this again and saw the metal button on the bottom of the plunger, and I'm assuming the shim goes under that button to push it more toward the cam lobe (similar to OHC engines that have lifter 'buckets' that go over the valve stem and spring).
Those pump assemblies on that Duetz look like a never-ending source of problems with all the o-rings to keep the fuel in the proper channels on the common rail, and no roller lifter to prevent wear to the contact surface of the pump plunger (at least none that I could see on the unit itself). They sure didn't do themselves any favors by going water-cooled. The old air-cooled Duetz's were actually pretty reliable and something along the lines of what the classic Volkswagen would have been if they had made a diesel!😁
I like watching your videos you take pride in your work I wish thier were more mechanics like you
This guy is very knowledgeable and amazing
I agree. slightly premature timing will show a knock every time.
At least you supported the head when picking up the baby like you are supposed to
someone did a really nice job in fixing/upgrading that young orange peel grapple ... looks like a 2-yard grapple ... the backside of the tines being enclosed is an aftermarket deal... I do it the same way - enclose the backside of the tines with AR400 (same material as the rest of the grapple (minus the teeth those are AR500 or forgings depends on if you do a OE rebuild or aftermarket fix))
than Dual shield flux cored them on .... and chances are stuff hold ! you can sleep at night and don't have to come back and fix a bunch of stuff all the time ...
If you have ever seen how they move fully loaded rail cars in the scrapyards with those material handlers or throw school buses around with those grapples ... and "pull" a motor out of the school bus in a few seconds by "shaking" the rest of the school buses off ... you know what I am talking about.
That baby bit was hilarious! Love the channel!
The baby at the end ... was the best. 😆😆
3:15 I think they r shimmed in order to be able to adjust the minimal clearance between the cam lobe and whatever it presses in the pump. Looks they couldnt get it more complicated.
Is this knocking actually a play between lobe and pump and as they r big it is loud.
In my opinion it is not to delay or advance timing but to reduce play. Play makes knock and of course it affects timing
You are the Diesel Whisperer. Nice Job!
Love your advice" don't bring babies to the job site" Baaahhhhaaaaaa! Great mechanical tips as always!
The baby at the end was hilarious.
Good job fixing that rig
A trick my dad taught me was put your ear on the handle end of a large screwdriver and put the head end on the part that you suspect is knocking. It works every time. Good work though.
The more I watch your videos the more I begin to understand how much I don’t know about diesels and I’ve been an auto tech for 30 years.
Paccar and mack used to use a very similar injection system but the pumps had electrical solenoids on them to control timing rather than shims like this one
Clever idea for diagnosing, better then pulling heads and oil pans.
Excellent work, Rich! The videos where you work on machinery are the best!
VAG single injector car diesels have adjustment on each injector too .
These Deutz engines are also in Volvo diggers. we rebuild at least one each month most of them have con rod bearings go bad last one we did had a bad lobe on the camschaft from one of the pumps destroyed a lifter and parts had gone trought the oilpump ect... needed new cam new , one con rod and a new oil pump....
The ending is so funny with the baby how he launches it into the pile 😂
Another issue with the pump that gives a similar early injection problem is a weak delivery valve spring. Not sure if you would feel it on the Deutz with such short high pressure lines but on a pump with longer lines you can feel the HP line 'buzz' on the cylinder with a weak spring.
The cheat way to test these specifically on this series would be to loosen the line at the injection pump with the engine idling. If the fuel "snaps" out of the loosened line with pressure the pop-off pressure of the spring in the injector is probably fine. If the fuel flows out like a faucet and no squirting, well the injector is most likely junk. That was my standard test before pulling the injectors in the field to pop test them on the back of the service truck! Really helped accurately diagnose the engine issue in a timely manner.
Doesn't a smaller shim advance it more?
Some diesels just knock. Ive noticed it in the low revs on my employers perkins ad3-152 in his mf135. Anything over 1000rpm and its butter smooth
NEED more of these types of videos. heavy equipment/ diesel stuff will always trump the Audi. though it is badass car can't wait to see that things final outcome either.
Nice job Rich. Gotta love disproving the factory tech. Never been around a Deutz so I don’t know much about them. I’d like to keep it that way haha.
This makes me think about my jeep. I had a leak at injector 1 and it was knocking because the intake valve was over engorged with gas.... same knocking sound !
Had some air cooled Deutz in a air compressor. Noisy as hell but ran forever.
I have a 4 cylinder air cooled deutz and there is knocking and it is really smoky but since I watched this ik what it is now
That was hilarious at the end. Great work as always!
Those independent pumps remind me of an over complicated version of the EUP pumps in Mack E-Tech's
I’ve never once seen this guy with clean hands
Nice! I have a Deutz-Fahr tractor from 1985 a.k.a the air cooled one... It's fun untill it's -25 celsius outside 😂😂
@James Michael it be like that 😂 plus there is a big old hole on the right side door so eind blows in like crazy sometimes😂
I've never got to work on a deutz. But between the old air cooled stuff I've seen and this now I want to tear one apart.
I went through training in like 99 for my generator job, but this things too new to me hahaha.
Seems a little like a VW 2.0PD fuel system (pump duse).
As long as they were set up right , they run like a Swiss watch for a long time.
Guys harp on rebuild time because its tedious compared to a Chevy 350.
The baby at the end...brilliant :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I'm guessing belt sander to shave the shim? Or... Clickspring it using superglue on a lathe? Or... lasers!
I’m not familiar with these engines, I’m sure they’re great when they work, but more moving parts IMO just make them a PITA when it comes to diagnostics to a problem. Good job as alway on the fix.
One of my coworkers put a motor in one of these. It actually blew up my first day on the job, the operator came on the radio and just said there was oil everywhere. Anyways he left all those little plastic caps in the hydraulic hoses when he hooked everything up to the various pumps and whatnot. I had to go pull all the hoses back off and look for any caps that got left behind. The boss was PISSED
Nice job! Scrap yards the best place for that model Deutz
So cool, im from Germany, and these Sennebogen are built like 10 minutes from my house. 😅
I have a sneaking suspicion the engine "runaway" at one time and "one" connecting rod has a set of stretched bolts. And yeah, might have checked the bearings with only a visual inspection, but did not do a measurement of the housing bore of the rod w/a dial bore gauge and micrometer on the crankshaft journal to verify the tolerance.
you really know your shit bud.
Great channel
Great job man, lotta respect for your understanding of such strange engines.
The engines with returnlesd injectors may be mounted 180degrees wrong, and as they are mounted at an angle, the spray pattern on the piston bowl will be wrong often cause smoke and hard running...
Maybe the stack up measurement for the pump is what caused your knock? I would be curious if you measured all the parts in the pump currently? and what is the min/max of all measurements of all parts according to the assembly/machine print of each part? I use too build injectors for Cat C7/9 during research and development and we found that the stack up was at the maximum dimension and the mating part was at the minimum dimension and even though we assembled them by hand we kept cracking the nozzle sleeve causing all types of failures from knocks to common rail High Pressure damage to foreign material damage including the pump.
VW tdi pump duse are working the same,it's not that rare at all.
Haha I saved the 2.0 PD from the wife's Passat, to swap into my mk1 golf.
it was pretty impressive in that tank passat.
I'll be happy to get it running bug free before tearing it apart for mods.
I've got another project or two ahead of it, but eventually.
You are a wizard sir
Loved the video, more like these as you come by them.
Wonder how the Deutz technician feels seeing someone else sort his engine out?