I just turned 40 and made the decision to go back to school to become an airline pilot. I should start in the next six months and I am nervous about getting back into the flow of school. I have a flight sim cockpit set up in my bedroom and have been doing that non stop for a couple years. It was really the motivation to pursue this. Seeing this video just kind of confirms I am making a correct choice. Any advice to help prep would be amazing and much appreciated.
After college (grad 2009) and a few years of instructing (and other jobs) my son earned his ATP and was lucky enough to get hired on with Sky West. After a couple of years in the right seat, he finally earned the left seat and started building Captain's hours. A couple of years later, he was seeing people with six months of right seat time get hired on with the majors, yet his applications seemed to be ignored. He flew all through covid (appreciating that fact) then finally late last year got hired on with American with an excess of 7000 hours under his belt and a pristine record, taking a cut in pay from Skywest for the first year with American. He is looking forward to year two towards the end of this year when his pay will go up. After listening to this report, the funny thing is he never flew turboprops, only jets. After many episodes of late night plane jumping to get home to his family for a couple of days, bad weather and other delays, he has come to understand the saying "Best job in the world, worst career in the world"
You don't need college that's the problem they're trying to be over educated. It's a blue collar job like a coal miner or truck driver for plumber or master electrician. If you want an education go be a doctor. This is for the blue collar workers
Started flying in 2004. Had to stop after knowing that I couldn’t provide for my family. Now, I’m working on my commercial, hopefully it’s not too late to catch the flow!
Nice show. I am a retired civilian AA 1989 hire, no college, glasses. I had a blessed career, no furloughs. After about 6 years with Republic my son has completed his first year at AA.
Flight instructed while in college, graduated at age 22 with 2100 hours. Big recession then instructed for almost another year. Flew an air ambulance, then 2 different commuter airlines. Then a supplemental 121 carrier. Then hired at a major carrier age 26 with 5500 hours.
My first 121 job paid $12.50 an hour, I had to sign a training agreement that I would pay back $10,000 if I left within a year. This was an improvement from the “pay for training” days where you had to pay $10,000 out of pocket to be hired and trained, for that $12.50/h job.
That sounds nearly as bad as me having to start a job in the outback here in Australia where I had to fly 210s that are falling apart…near storms under VFR, get paid 300/week and live in a tent that was in someone’s garage and had to pay 180 a week for..
Got an offer for a regional job 2 weeks before 9/11. The guy in the class before me was furloughed out of ground school, i never made it to day one. Ended up flying 135. No regrets. The regionals sucked during the “lost decade” while i was flying kingairs and light jets to cool places.
Excellent excellent statement and story. Criminal number 1… regional airline managers Criminal number 2 … ALPA CRIMINAL number three…. every recent upgrade to captain… that then went out and bought a Harley and a boat… and then couldn’t tell his Union to vote no.
The gap or lost years spoken of was a period of time where the managements industry wide worked tirelessly to lower pilot pay and remove quality of life from every aspect of the job. Benefits were shredded and schedules made abusive. The pilot shortage now is a direct result of that time.
Add me to the list. I had about 2000 TT and 500 ME when hired by my first commuter - Chautauqua - in 1996. They required a $10,000 training investment. If you passed, then you were hired. We made $13000 a year flying 6-10 legs a day in a 19 seat Jetstream 31. No autopilot, no cockpit door, no FAs, no lav, and definitely no coffee maker. And we loved every minute of it. We were young, we were building multi engine time, and we had our whole future ahead of us. I was 23 years old. Boy if I had known then what I know now, I would do so many things differently… 😢
You guys are making me wish I were coming of age right now instead of in the late 2000s! I wanted to be an airline pilot from an early age up through most of high school before hearing the stories of the crash pads, long commutes, and less pay than McD's. I ended up looking into other careers specifically because I didn't feel like I'd be at my best with that lifestyle, and then lo and behold the Colgan Air disaster happens a year after my HS graduation, kind of confirming my concerns about the safety of that system. If I'd graduated from high school this year instead of 2007, I would've been MUCH more likely to pursue an airline career.
Also graduated in 07 and was looking at aviation at Purdue, ended up in the pharmacy program instead. Telling a fresh college kid you can earn 100k your first year out of school as a pharmacist versus making 20k as a regional made the decision seem far better/easier than it actually was. I didn't cut it in pharmacy school anyways but here 12 years after graduation I've got enough saved up I think I can finally make the switch back to what I wanted in the first place.
Yesterday, I saw a CRJ in Air Wisconsin colors. I wonder how much confusion that causes for passengers who just think they're flying on a Major Airline. I used to get food stamps as a turbo-prop regional pilot. Unfortunately, I couldn't explain that I wasn't a part-time employee because my hours were limited to 100 a month. That really lowered my entitlement
Pretty typical. When the retirement age was set at 60 (now 65) The PBGC (Pension guarantee trust corporation) would penalize pilots from bankrupt airlines because they "retired early!" What a joke. Don't miss the industry one damn bit.
This is a great story. As a pilot for 40 years, for so long I could never take the pay cut... I am happy that the pay has finally reached parity for new hires.
This was fascinating. Glad to hear things have gotten better. It’s the career I so wanted to have-but I’m color blind (so I fly a ‘46 65-hp handprop Champ for fun as a Sport Pilot).
One of your pilots that came up through the grass roots is Swayne Martin. He has a TH-cam channel and has flown island hoppers, hired on to Envoy and now is flying American. He also is a good ambassador for Envoy/American.
What a great video find. I was flying part 135 in the early 90'a and finally left aviation because of the low pay and the airlines weren't hiring (at least not me). It is great to hear what the industry went through between now and then.
Good talk! Sure glad things have changed. I left aviation with 900+ hours as a cfi in 2010. Just wasn’t a future for a new father at the time. Wish I could get back but don’t see a path. CFI expired and I didn’t renew. Getting that multi time to qualify for an entry position at the airlines seems unavailable as a father of four teenagers. Restarting that time building lifestyle is not practical on a family budget. I’m excited for the next gen though!
So as a new pilot/FO be ready for months of on-call duty, and then when you move to the captains seat you’re at the bottom again. And if you go to the majors, back to the bottom. And the flying at the regionals is crap. Four day trips, four legs a day, minimum layovers at the loveliest of airport hotels in Duluth, Tulsa, Fargo and the like.
@@Hedgeflexlfz Yea if you are going to fly regional, absolutely! Imo it's not worth the extra 40k a year to fly regional. International is the way to go, you’re always heading somewhere good, especially on the way home. Plus you're on break for about a third of each leg, dozing for dollars.
I'm a mechanic for skywest. I am about to go to atp for an 11 month fast track to multi engine commercial. Skywes is offering 57500 in tuition reimbursement and a guaranteed cjob if you complete within 30 months.
Excellent episode Christy and Baylee, thank you. It's great to hear the regionals are stepping up and paying pilots a good wage. Keep up the excellent work as always. Safe skies 🇺🇸🛩️
I wish there were more pathways for A&P mechanics to transition to pilots. You would think it might be good for someone that has the knowledge of an A&P to be in the cockpit.
One of my first instructors went form A&P at United to being a corporate pilot. You have to do it like everyone else, get your ratings and build hours. :)
as an A&P and a pilot, I can say it is useful, but... AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE. The A&P knowledge will be useful back at the maintenance shop. We do understand what is a no go on a preflight, however.
@@Hedgeflexlfz Yea but it would be really valuable for a part 91 or 135 operation. You could swap a battery or parts when you get to your destination if you had any issues. You would have a better understanding of managing maintenance, and the maintenance bill/ plan from the maintenance provider. You could troubleshoot in flight issues. Make better go/no go decisions. The a&p will always know the airplane much more intimately than the pilot. There's alot more to the owner / operator matrix than the hour and a half you're in the air.
Enjoyed the episode. I just received my Class 1 Medical certificate and will be enrolling with ATP Monday morning. Looking forward to this career change at 40. Any advice from anyone seeing this is totally welcomed. I've been working on my ground training since being let go from my company back in March.
I got on with the regionals in 1990...$12k/yr...could only afford to do it for about a year and went back to the IT world when I had a little one....Got on with COninential later in 1990, at the time a non-alpa carrier and going there sort of blacklisted you,,,,,well I tired and they based me in Guam...I passed.....a couple years later they became ALPA carrier......Got hired again by the regionals in 2016, pay was $20k/yr.....would have cost me to take the job....got hired again right before COVID hit in 2020 $45k/yr, better but still a struggle since i was now older and chance of major was limited......Applied last summer and have been turned down...I assume since I am aging out here in next couple years unless they up the age to 67...at this aage the job is not as appealing as it used to be but with it finally paying a liveable wage you can actually survive long enough to stick it out.......life is all about timing....
In the days where a college degree was required (not limited to just airline), I'll never forget what the CEO of a large corporation said years ago. Employers hire college grads, as they had *_shown and proved they have the ability to learn_* It really wasn't until several years later and I really understood what he meant. I know this will draw critique, but even today in some industries/professions, not only does that mentality prevail, but is true in a lot of cases in corporate America.
It also shows a certain stick-to-it-ive-ness that is hard to prove without work experience, and then you run into the old Catch-22 of not being able to get work experience because you can't get hired. It also forces you to get out of your comfort zone to learn and do things you wouldn't bother with on your own. I know a lot of people denigrate college because of all the people who racked up $250k in debt to get a Masters Degree in Gender Studies who now want the government to fix their bad choice, but if you choose wisely and get an actual degree in an actual subject it is well worth the effort.
Interesting, as a 44 year business owner of multiple businesses in several states, I have hired and fired a lot of college graduates, a lot more than non graduates. Receiving a degree means you showed up and paid your money, nothing more. You can say what you want, a degree does nothing for your ability to learn, you have to do that yourself.
I agree with you,with case by case exceptions.Early days of piston commercial operations,Pilots had to know every component of aircraft. Even more, trusted Legacy carriers then required the flight attendants to be RNs to be considered.
It’s funny because now it’s definitely a work experience environment now. You walk in with experience the rest is fluff. Especially if you can show experience in significant parts of the roll. Plus a current employee is much more valuable then a new hire. They are a unknown quantity and college grads are absolutely not a assurance anymore unless it’s a STEM degree that requires niche knowledge through university instruction like engineering. Even that however is a semi hard rule once your in the business. You show quick uptake and come with a autodidactic knowledge. They will look at transitioning people into those roles and others. Even better is to get that degree after the fact then your a damn rockstar. It isn’t a knock on college but definitely on certain degrees. Human studies is not the smart move. So many college graduates are not getting good jobs and expect it instead of working for it. Or they get jobs and rest on laurels. It’s a difficult environment to hire the new graduates now. Even in the highly technical side like engineering development, it’s a 25/75 you struck out even with the degree. The college systems has suffered and so employers are getting those after effects. Business doesn’t need safe spaces. They need you to work and make money. It makes it’s even hard on a HR perspective to check all the political boxes while balancing a more decisive work force.
My wife and I have 3 degrees and 5 completed majors between us from Notre Dame and we drive a commercial truck hauling military/ areospace after a 20 year military career. The extended education helped but dealing with the rest of an industry is a mental drain for those that are slow on the uptake for the industry.
Speaking of regionals, I can remember my dad putting us kids on Frontier's Convair 580's in the 70's (Denver to Omaha IIRC). Now up here on South Dakota we sure could use more regional routes but they axed several for whatever reason..
I believe the comment "these airplanes fly themselves, except for the thrust reversers" was tongue in cheek, but it is also furthers the public's perception that all we do up there is drink coffee and share pictures of our vacation homes, pools, and Corvettes.
The "San Antonio Sewer Pipe". Ed Swearingen had a ranch a few miles from ours. His family were very nice to me when I was living in San Antonio in the late 70's and early 80's. I won't kiss and tell but it was hard impressing one of his daughters in a 152 flight. lol.
I flew 933AE for Eagle (Flagship RDU) back in the day. Since there was no cockpit door the pax could see up close. We would keep our flight bags on the floor between us. Some folks took to laminating their W2s and attaching them to the bags where the pax could see them. Got some interesting comments when the folks saw the numbers. Still have my I'M ON BOARD button! Midway Airlines (best job ever) came along and off I went. After 20 years at NJA, it's time to retire.
They forgot to leave out how during the 90"s when all the mergers were happening. They fired many crew. I was one of them. !4,500 turboprop hours and a perfect record.
I took an intro flight in 71 in a little piper. I thought it was easy, and the CFI asked me if I'd ever flown before. When I said no, he acted like he didn't believe me. I had no vision of making flying into a career, no one to talk to about it, so I went to a computer school instead. I have acquired a degree in computing and another in marketing but have never worked in computing or marketing. When I think about it I lost a great opportunity to do something I would have loved doing for all my working life. I'll turn 74 tomorrow and truly regret not going down that road. Anyone who wants to fly should just do it!
It’s good now for being a new airline pilot, but like the guys said, it’s cyclical. And we have a tremendous economic downturn ahead, where at best hiring will be slow (hopefully not furloughs - oh yeah, that can be in the mix). Anyway, only 8-12 months from the downturn then might as well take your time getting into the career. This is regardless of the fact they need captains. It will be bad. Enjoy the pay while it lasts.
Former USAF Pilot. 1 year in Vietnam, 1 year in Thailand. 2100 hrs B-52 aircraft commander. Could not get hired in 1973. Went into business for myself and built a successful company. Owned a Bonanza, so get all the flying I want, and avoided all the airline drama discussed here. The only job I would have wanted was FedEx or UPS, but they had just started up.
@@TakingOff No, only about 1,000. The rest was UPT and the AC-47 in Vietnam. You probably don’t know what that was, but it was the original gunship that led to today’s AC-130. Keep up the good work and good luck to all pilots flying the line.
I’ll never forget riding a regional out of KLYH in the 90’s. No flight attendant, the co-pilot closed the door, climbed in the cockpit, and left the curtain open. I watched him insert a cassette tape into a Realistic (Radio Shack) tape player that was installed in the panel. He then played the welcoming speech and safety instructions. I can’t remember the type of aircraft, maybe a Shorts. Piedmont successor, US AIR.
I’m curious, the flight ops director talking about interviewing right after commercial, is that only through the accredited university pathway, or do they do that for ATP pathway as well? I’m pondering going to ATP
"Several years as a Captain" is no longer true unless you're waiting to flow. F/O's are being picked up by the legacy airlines as they approach 1000 hours. My neighbor flew for PSA regional. At around 950 hours he got an invite for a Delta interview. He was hired but had to wait about 3 months to start. In the meantime he hit 1000 hours and upgraded and managed to get a few hours of PIC time before leaving. He wanted to fly for AA because of the CLT base but they wouldn't hire him outside of the flow. That's why they're paying such big bonuses for DEC's. Pilots can get hired at an LCC or a major just as they get enough time to upgrade.
One of the old regional aircraft I didn't hear mentioned in the long list was a dash 7 & dash 8 that Panam express and Piedmont which use to be.. Henson out of Salisbury MD? I forget, but those were nice aircraft at the time. On another reminiscing note.. For any of you that managed to get an invite to interview with the majors back in the mid to late 80s.. In addition to having to pay to apply and get the scanner sheet to fill out the medical you had to go through was like applying to nasa astronaut program.. Last 2,3 or 4 days with all the psych tests and brain scans and blood work and talking with psychologist.. It was crazy what you had to go through. And if you didn't get on with one airline there were like dozens of others to apply to... They have all dissappeard.. And the medical is being able to find your way there! 😁 And if you got through all of that and we're selected you moved on to the simulator ride..
I was hired right out of the Marine Corps by Southwest. I was up against more qualified applicants with time at the majors. I was humble, proficient concise and respectful, and was hired. Today, all of us would have been hired. It was much harder back then. Every other airline turned me down. I had a lot of time, and every qualification except an ATP, because I wasn’t old enough, when going to the military. Once out in the fleet, flying time was scarce. I moonlighted as an instructor, but busting tires at Sears paid more. 😢 I was very lucky having a father and grandfather who had planes and flew, but they made me work for it. I traded hard labor on my grandpa’s farm, and my dads cow-calf operation, for flying time. Dad was a CFI. The thing about an airline career, you can have a concurrent career doing something else. Especially if you can’t sit still like me. I farm and ranch to this day, and left the airlines at 50 years old. Zero regrets, I’m thankful for everything Aviation allowed me to do. But what I can do as a large scale farm and ranch is very rewarding. Watching a patch of dirt transform in to an oasis exploding with life. It’s at minimum equal to cloud surfing. Both share an odd satisfaction one gets from the struggles and pain it took to get there. Even though it is easier for the next generation of aviators now, it’s still much tougher than most of life’s endeavors.
The time may be now, but my timing always sucks. 4 times and god knows how much money I've spent trying to get into aviation...I just can't do it any more. Pre Covid was my best last chance where I could afford to make it happen.
don't sweat it, you dodged a bullet, you just don't know it yet. Don't stake your happiness on a career choice that hinges on being born on the right decade. It's the orbital opposite to any measure of meritocracy. Also recognize that most people exhibit optimism bias, where if it worked out for them it's because they're special, and if you didn't then it's because of a personal failing on your part. As this comment section highlights in spades, there's TONS of people who get spit out by the aviation industry, most just move on and don't post about it. If there's anything to lament, it's the insane cost of recreational piston aviation. That's where I think a lot of people would find reprieve from the inclination to wanting to do it professionally at the expense of their families and financial solvency, but the costs simply are unattainable for very little reward (especially when talking about factory built certified airplanes, and the byzantines maintenance rules and overpriced parts and obligation to contract an AP). Experimental thankfully is available, at least that's my retirement plan, as an unhappy certified airplane owner.
Great show, I'm older and persuing my private pilot license and want to eventually teach or fly a corporate gig. But my son graduates HS next year and is looking to become a pilot, this interview really opened my eyes to the possibilities of what's possible. Does anyone know of where I can get a listing of the accredited schools where you can get through in only 1000 hours. We're in Columbus OH and not sure OSU is one of them.
Not sure of your age/situation, but I started late as well. Commercial at 38, B-1900 at 39, regionals (RJs) at 40, and then finally a major at 49. This was all during the "Forgotten decade" and really, really low pay era if it's any inspiration.
A friend of mine recently got hired by a regional when he turned 21. Did all his training at a part 61, built his time as a CFI, spent less than 60K and about two years from PPL rating to hired by the airlines. He's currently doing his sim training.
@@momsspaghetti8093 Yep, same thing, just not a major like United, Delta, etc... I think he started about 90K annually, but I'm not positive on that figure.
@@craigsanders6925 oh okay I see. Considering a career in aviation but there are so many barriers to it and it can get confusing. Plus the cost to become one 😬
You needed a degree back then because it reduced a stack of 10,000 résumés to perhaps 5,000. You might thank the airline industry for making the job of regional airline pilot so bad that nobody wanted to do it…creating the void that we’re experiencing now. Banging around eight to ten legs a day in a Jetstream at $15/hr and 90 hours a month was considered “paying one’s dues.” Nowadays, not so much…
Yep, been there flying the Jetstream 3100 and back in those days you had to pay to apply to tonthe airlines to have your app considered... $25 or $50 and the cost of a stamp to mail it and wait.
I had hit the nuclear button (w/o telling my at-the-time boss) hated my higher ed job, and was ready to say "screw it, I quit - I'm going to be a flight attendant while I go through flight school finish getting my license and become a pilot" my interview with Delta was for March 23rd, 2020. My employer, University of Connecticut closed for the spring semester due to covid effective Monday March 23rd, 2020. In March 2022 I left that higher ed job and with June right around the corner, I'm happy to report I've flown every month since last May, and crossed 50,000 passenger miles in a single year. Now yes, I'm not a pilot, but now I'm in a job that pays well enough to get me back into the pilot's seat, and keeps me around aviation.
Just a suggestion from an old guy: don’t become a pilot, or really do anything in your aviation career, for the money. Don’t chase jobs, don’t chase equipment unless it’s just what you really want to do. If you’re in this job for any reason other than you just love to fly you’re going to have a long road ahead. Do your job, pursue your career goals and savor every millisecond of the flying. The rest will come. Retired after 42 years and wouldn’t trade one single day. It’s the greatest job and career in the world. Bill Gates doesn’t have enough money to buy what I have done.
How long do people expect this pilot shortage to last? Is it fair for someone who's just starting out now to expect strong demand in a couple years when they finally have the ATP?
My guess is at least five more years and possibly ten for the pilot shortage. Unless something drastic happens like the FAA raises retirement age or if single Pilot flight decks were authorized.
SkyWest technically did not furlough anybody. For about 10 days new hires in training were being told by company to go home & pound sand, but SAPA came in and got them back on payroll with back pay…. And they furloughed no pilots out of new hire training. So SkyWest did ok dealing with Covid initially.
A certain 141 flight school in Florida says that from zero to Private/IR/CSEL/CMEL/CFI/CFII/MEI is now about $96,000, but I know several peeps who had 100 hours before they passed Private. also, congress making the 1500 hour rule was retarded, considering the morons in congress.
One of my first cases was against AMR for firing pilot for false reasons. He was intimidated for filing for state assistance and they targeted him. We collected for his family.
I tried to be a regional airline pilot at PSA recently at the ripe age of 61. It was the least professional organization I ever tried to work for. They totally disrespected my 13000 hours of experience and, 5 type ratings, and 20 year military career and seemed to focus only on the australian and other asian students who seemed to be willing to take the 6 month wait on health insurance because their countries paid for their health benefits while they waited. Yeah, I fly single pilot on the 1900 that American Airline pilot is bragging about every day / single pilot, now into and out of Hartsfield. I believe that all the current regionals are full of pilots who dont love aviation, havent paid their dues. I literally hope American, that I airline I once wanted so badly to fly for, goes under. And I flew that Shorts as a Capt. as well. I bet neither of those 2 young ladies ever did. Young people like the who runs this channel should tow banners, instruct for years, fly Caravans in the NE, or make 18000 a year in their current position forever! Lets see how bad they want it.
Thanks, I thought I woube the only old aviator.. I'm. 62 now my interviewers weren't even born when we were flying real airplanes with steam guages and no auto pilot or radar, the memories flying bank checks and film processing at night and lots of instructing to build hours
Is the current environment just a fluke of the early retirements and training slump caused by C19? Do you see a glut of pilots chasing the new generous salaries driving wages back down to where they were?
what they keep forgetting to say is that you're still on the hook for those 1,000 hours from between your flight training and getting hired on. and saying that you get experience as a cfi is retarded because instructors don't fly the plane but maybe a few minutes per flight. how many times have you had the instructor land the plane and fuck it up?
Great episode! I remember those old days, I have the battle scars to prove it! It’s an amazing career. Anybody still deciding jump on in, the water is warm!! Btw Delta and Endeavor never furloughed a single pilot during Covid! Making a decision on what airline you want to hang your hat? Just google “Airline profit sharing” 🥰
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I just turned 40 and made the decision to go back to school to become an airline pilot. I should start in the next six months and I am nervous about getting back into the flow of school. I have a flight sim cockpit set up in my bedroom and have been doing that non stop for a couple years. It was really the motivation to pursue this. Seeing this video just kind of confirms I am making a correct choice. Any advice to help prep would be amazing and much appreciated.
After college (grad 2009) and a few years of instructing (and other jobs) my son earned his ATP and was lucky enough to get hired on with Sky West. After a couple of years in the right seat, he finally earned the left seat and started building Captain's hours. A couple of years later, he was seeing people with six months of right seat time get hired on with the majors, yet his applications seemed to be ignored. He flew all through covid (appreciating that fact) then finally late last year got hired on with American with an excess of 7000 hours under his belt and a pristine record, taking a cut in pay from Skywest for the first year with American. He is looking forward to year two towards the end of this year when his pay will go up. After listening to this report, the funny thing is he never flew turboprops, only jets. After many episodes of late night plane jumping to get home to his family for a couple of days, bad weather and other delays, he has come to understand the saying "Best job in the world, worst career in the world"
Insightful...thanks.
You don't need college that's the problem they're trying to be over educated. It's a blue collar job like a coal miner or truck driver for plumber or master electrician. If you want an education go be a doctor. This is for the blue collar workers
Started flying in 2004. Had to stop after knowing that I couldn’t provide for my family. Now, I’m working on my commercial, hopefully it’s not too late to catch the flow!
Nice show. I am a retired civilian AA 1989 hire, no college, glasses. I had a blessed career, no furloughs. After about 6 years with Republic my son has completed his first year at AA.
I remember flying the Saabs out of DFW! Love the sound of the engine! miss that plane!
Flight instructed while in college, graduated at age 22 with 2100 hours. Big recession then instructed for almost another year. Flew an air ambulance, then 2 different commuter airlines. Then a supplemental 121 carrier. Then hired at a major carrier age 26 with 5500 hours.
My first 121 job paid $12.50 an hour, I had to sign a training agreement that I would pay back $10,000 if I left within a year. This was an improvement from the “pay for training” days where you had to pay $10,000 out of pocket to be hired and trained, for that $12.50/h job.
Same. ATA wanted 12K upfront for training and the job paid 12K to fly a E-110.
That sounds nearly as bad as me having to start a job in the outback here in Australia where I had to fly 210s that are falling apart…near storms under VFR, get paid 300/week and live in a tent that was in someone’s garage and had to pay 180 a week for..
Thanks for the great interview. This was fantastic. As 45 yr old starting Career 2.0 in aviation I loved all this history and insights.
Got an offer for a regional job 2 weeks before 9/11. The guy in the class before me was furloughed out of ground school, i never made it to day one. Ended up flying 135. No regrets. The regionals sucked during the “lost decade” while i was flying kingairs and light jets to cool places.
Excellent excellent statement and story.
Criminal number 1… regional airline managers
Criminal number 2 … ALPA
CRIMINAL number three…. every recent upgrade to captain… that then went out and bought a Harley and a boat… and then couldn’t tell his Union to vote no.
Hello from Brazil. Interesting thematic. Nice channel and stuffs.
The gap or lost years spoken of was a period of time where the managements industry wide worked tirelessly to lower pilot pay and remove quality of life from every aspect of the job. Benefits were shredded and schedules made abusive. The pilot shortage now is a direct result of that time.
Add me to the list. I had about 2000 TT and 500 ME when hired by my first commuter - Chautauqua - in 1996. They required a $10,000 training investment. If you passed, then you were hired. We made $13000 a year flying 6-10 legs a day in a 19 seat Jetstream 31. No autopilot, no cockpit door, no FAs, no lav, and definitely no coffee maker. And we loved every minute of it. We were young, we were building multi engine time, and we had our whole future ahead of us. I was 23 years old. Boy if I had known then what I know now, I would do so many things differently… 😢
You guys are making me wish I were coming of age right now instead of in the late 2000s! I wanted to be an airline pilot from an early age up through most of high school before hearing the stories of the crash pads, long commutes, and less pay than McD's. I ended up looking into other careers specifically because I didn't feel like I'd be at my best with that lifestyle, and then lo and behold the Colgan Air disaster happens a year after my HS graduation, kind of confirming my concerns about the safety of that system. If I'd graduated from high school this year instead of 2007, I would've been MUCH more likely to pursue an airline career.
Also graduated in 07 and was looking at aviation at Purdue, ended up in the pharmacy program instead. Telling a fresh college kid you can earn 100k your first year out of school as a pharmacist versus making 20k as a regional made the decision seem far better/easier than it actually was. I didn't cut it in pharmacy school anyways but here 12 years after graduation I've got enough saved up I think I can finally make the switch back to what I wanted in the first place.
Excellent Content…
Yesterday, I saw a CRJ in Air Wisconsin colors. I wonder how much confusion that causes for passengers who just think they're flying on a Major Airline. I used to get food stamps as a turbo-prop regional pilot. Unfortunately, I couldn't explain that I wasn't a part-time employee because my hours were limited to 100 a month. That really lowered my entitlement
Pretty typical. When the retirement age was set at 60 (now 65) The PBGC (Pension guarantee trust corporation) would penalize pilots from bankrupt airlines because they "retired early!" What a joke. Don't miss the industry one damn bit.
This is a great story. As a pilot for 40 years, for so long I could never take the pay cut... I am happy that the pay has finally reached parity for new hires.
Also, back in the day, 80's early 90's a lot of regionals operated part 135.
I'm much like Christy here. I starting flying in 2006 but decided to not pursue it too hardcore cause the industry was a damn mess.
1989 Bar Harbor as Eastern Express was my first airline job, BE-1900 sic pay was $9,998 a year and I had 2300 hours. Definitely a different world now.
This was fascinating. Glad to hear things have gotten better. It’s the career I so wanted to have-but I’m color blind (so I fly a ‘46 65-hp handprop Champ for fun as a Sport Pilot).
Great interview. Please keep up this sort of thing!
One of your pilots that came up through the grass roots is Swayne Martin. He has a TH-cam channel and has flown island hoppers, hired on to Envoy and now is flying American. He also is a good ambassador for Envoy/American.
Absolutely right, and I really like Swayne, but he is now flying for UAL.
Excellent interview, thank you..
What a great video find. I was flying part 135 in the early 90'a and finally left aviation because of the low pay and the airlines weren't hiring (at least not me). It is great to hear what the industry went through between now and then.
Value-added. Insightful. Timely. Real talk. Thanks.
When it comes to the airlines, timing is everything. A job based as much on luck as ability.
That I can confirm 100%!
@@jojojoman78 plus 1 on that. I have an A&P and i drove for UPS for 35 years .
Baby boom retirement boom! Vietnam pilots were in their prime at the airlines when I graduated high school in the mid 90’s.
Good talk! Sure glad things have changed. I left aviation with 900+ hours as a cfi in 2010. Just wasn’t a future for a new father at the time. Wish I could get back but don’t see a path. CFI expired and I didn’t renew. Getting that multi time to qualify for an entry position at the airlines seems unavailable as a father of four teenagers. Restarting that time building lifestyle is not practical on a family budget.
I’m excited for the next gen though!
So as a new pilot/FO be ready for months of on-call duty, and then when you move to the captains seat you’re at the bottom again. And if you go to the majors, back to the bottom. And the flying at the regionals is crap. Four day trips, four legs a day, minimum layovers at the loveliest of airport hotels in Duluth, Tulsa, Fargo and the like.
Is it still like this?
@@Hedgeflexlfz Yea if you are going to fly regional, absolutely! Imo it's not worth the extra 40k a year to fly regional. International is the way to go, you’re always heading somewhere good, especially on the way home. Plus you're on break for about a third of each leg, dozing for dollars.
@@a914freak Aren't pilot getting picked up by the majors very quickly now?
@@Hedgeflexlfz Sure because they are desperate. They are taking people in their 50's to start training.
@@a914freak how long do you think it'll last?
Im starting my first flying job this summer as a floatplane pilot im very excited.
I'm a mechanic for skywest. I am about to go to atp for an 11 month fast track to multi engine commercial. Skywes is offering 57500 in tuition reimbursement and a guaranteed cjob if you complete within 30 months.
Excellent episode Christy and Baylee, thank you. It's great to hear the regionals are stepping up and paying pilots a good wage. Keep up the excellent work as always. Safe skies 🇺🇸🛩️
I LOVE how many times I heard “back then…..” 👍🏻
Great Episode!
I like this format better with just Christy and Baylee as hosts.
I wish there were more pathways for A&P mechanics to transition to pilots. You would think it might be good for someone that has the knowledge of an A&P to be in the cockpit.
One of my first instructors went form A&P at United to being a corporate pilot. You have to do it like everyone else, get your ratings and build hours. :)
@@craigsanders6925 Trust me I know.
as an A&P and a pilot, I can say it is useful, but... AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE. The A&P knowledge will be useful back at the maintenance shop. We do understand what is a no go on a preflight, however.
A&P knowledge isn't worth much when you are in the air flying, it's not like you can get out of the plane going 200 knots and fix the issue
@@Hedgeflexlfz Yea but it would be really valuable for a part 91 or 135 operation. You could swap a battery or parts when you get to your destination if you had any issues. You would have a better understanding of managing maintenance, and the maintenance bill/ plan from the maintenance provider. You could troubleshoot in flight issues. Make better go/no go decisions. The a&p will always know the airplane much more intimately than the pilot. There's alot more to the owner / operator matrix than the hour and a half you're in the air.
Thank you very much!🙂👍
GREAT segment - found it very interesting
Enjoyed the episode. I just received my Class 1 Medical certificate and will be enrolling with ATP Monday morning. Looking forward to this career change at 40. Any advice from anyone seeing this is totally welcomed. I've been working on my ground training since being let go from my company back in March.
I got on with the regionals in 1990...$12k/yr...could only afford to do it for about a year and went back to the IT world when I had a little one....Got on with COninential later in 1990, at the time a non-alpa carrier and going there sort of blacklisted you,,,,,well I tired and they based me in Guam...I passed.....a couple years later they became ALPA carrier......Got hired again by the regionals in 2016, pay was $20k/yr.....would have cost me to take the job....got hired again right before COVID hit in 2020 $45k/yr, better but still a struggle since i was now older and chance of major was limited......Applied last summer and have been turned down...I assume since I am aging out here in next couple years unless they up the age to 67...at this aage the job is not as appealing as it used to be but with it finally paying a liveable wage you can actually survive long enough to stick it out.......life is all about timing....
Wow.
Christy love the video!
In the days where a college degree was required (not limited to just airline), I'll never forget what the CEO of a large corporation said years ago. Employers hire college grads, as they had *_shown and proved they have the ability to learn_* It really wasn't until several years later and I really understood what he meant. I know this will draw critique, but even today in some industries/professions, not only does that mentality prevail, but is true in a lot of cases in corporate America.
It also shows a certain stick-to-it-ive-ness that is hard to prove without work experience, and then you run into the old Catch-22 of not being able to get work experience because you can't get hired. It also forces you to get out of your comfort zone to learn and do things you wouldn't bother with on your own. I know a lot of people denigrate college because of all the people who racked up $250k in debt to get a Masters Degree in Gender Studies who now want the government to fix their bad choice, but if you choose wisely and get an actual degree in an actual subject it is well worth the effort.
Interesting, as a 44 year business owner of multiple businesses in several states, I have hired and fired a lot of college graduates, a lot more than non graduates. Receiving a degree means you showed up and paid your money, nothing more. You can say what you want, a degree does nothing for your ability to learn, you have to do that yourself.
I agree with you,with case by case exceptions.Early days of piston commercial operations,Pilots had to know every component of aircraft. Even more, trusted Legacy carriers then required the flight attendants to be RNs to be considered.
It’s funny because now it’s definitely a work experience environment now. You walk in with experience the rest is fluff. Especially if you can show experience in significant parts of the roll. Plus a current employee is much more valuable then a new hire. They are a unknown quantity and college grads are absolutely not a assurance anymore unless it’s a STEM degree that requires niche knowledge through university instruction like engineering. Even that however is a semi hard rule once your in the business. You show quick uptake and come with a autodidactic knowledge. They will look at transitioning people into those roles and others. Even better is to get that degree after the fact then your a damn rockstar. It isn’t a knock on college but definitely on certain degrees. Human studies is not the smart move. So many college graduates are not getting good jobs and expect it instead of working for it. Or they get jobs and rest on laurels. It’s a difficult environment to hire the new graduates now. Even in the highly technical side like engineering development, it’s a 25/75 you struck out even with the degree. The college systems has suffered and so employers are getting those after effects. Business doesn’t need safe spaces. They need you to work and make money. It makes it’s even hard on a HR perspective to check all the political boxes while balancing a more decisive work force.
My wife and I have 3 degrees and 5 completed majors between us from Notre Dame and we drive a commercial truck hauling military/ areospace after a 20 year military career. The extended education helped but dealing with the rest of an industry is a mental drain for those that are slow on the uptake for the industry.
Speaking of regionals, I can remember my dad putting us kids on Frontier's Convair 580's in the 70's (Denver to Omaha IIRC). Now up here on South Dakota we sure could use more regional routes but they axed several for whatever reason..
I believe the comment "these airplanes fly themselves, except for the thrust reversers" was tongue in cheek, but it is also furthers the public's perception that all we do up there is drink coffee and share pictures of our vacation homes, pools, and Corvettes.
I was a passenger on an American Eagle flight connecting to Atlanta in 89
The "San Antonio Sewer Pipe". Ed Swearingen had a ranch a few miles from ours. His family were very nice to me when I was living in San Antonio in the late 70's and early 80's. I won't kiss and tell but it was hard impressing one of his daughters in a 152 flight. lol.
I flew 933AE for Eagle (Flagship RDU) back in the day. Since there was no cockpit door the pax could see up close. We would keep our flight bags on the floor between us. Some folks took to laminating their W2s and attaching them to the bags where the pax could see them. Got some interesting comments when the folks saw the numbers. Still have my I'M ON BOARD button! Midway Airlines (best job ever) came along and off I went. After 20 years at NJA, it's time to retire.
I work in ops for MQ and this tail is still around doing well!
Flying 6 hours on a RJ sounds absolutely horrible! Except for the 175 2 hours is my max
They forgot to leave out how during the 90"s when all the mergers were happening. They fired many crew. I was one of them. !4,500 turboprop hours and a perfect record.
I made the goal to be a pilot 10 years ago, but due to the life's circumstances, i couldn't become one. Now I am full throttle towards this dream.
I took an intro flight in 71 in a little piper.
I thought it was easy, and the CFI asked me if I'd ever flown before. When I said no, he acted like he didn't believe me.
I had no vision of making flying into a career, no one to talk to about it, so I went to a computer school instead.
I have acquired a degree in computing and another in marketing but have never worked in computing or marketing.
When I think about it I lost a great opportunity to do something I would have loved doing for all my working life.
I'll turn 74 tomorrow and truly regret not going down that road.
Anyone who wants to fly should just do it!
Happy Birthday.
Happy birthday
@Will O'Haver , Thanks, Will! 😊
It’s good now for being a new airline pilot, but like the guys said, it’s cyclical. And we have a tremendous economic downturn ahead, where at best hiring will be slow (hopefully not furloughs - oh yeah, that can be in the mix). Anyway, only 8-12 months from the downturn then might as well take your time getting into the career. This is regardless of the fact they need captains. It will be bad. Enjoy the pay while it lasts.
Former USAF Pilot. 1 year in Vietnam, 1 year in Thailand. 2100 hrs B-52 aircraft commander. Could not get hired in 1973. Went into business for myself and built a successful company. Owned a Bonanza, so get all the flying I want, and avoided all the airline drama discussed here. The only job I would have wanted was FedEx or UPS, but they had just started up.
Wow. But you got 2K hours in the BUFF!
@@TakingOff No, only about 1,000. The rest was UPT and the AC-47 in Vietnam. You probably don’t know what that was, but it was the original gunship that led to today’s AC-130. Keep up the good work and good luck to all pilots flying the line.
V tail bonanza?
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 1984 A-36. Should have said “got” all the flying I wanted until my partner crash it.
What type of business did you start?
I’ll never forget riding a regional out of KLYH in the 90’s. No flight attendant, the co-pilot closed the door, climbed in the cockpit, and left the curtain open. I watched him insert a cassette tape into a Realistic (Radio Shack) tape player that was installed in the panel. He then played the welcoming speech and safety instructions. I can’t remember the type of aircraft, maybe a Shorts. Piedmont successor, US AIR.
15:50 flowing after 2-3 years HAHAHAHHA more like 8….
I’m curious, the flight ops director talking about interviewing right after commercial, is that only through the accredited university pathway, or do they do that for ATP pathway as well? I’m pondering going to ATP
"Several years as a Captain" is no longer true unless you're waiting to flow. F/O's are being picked up by the legacy airlines as they approach 1000 hours. My neighbor flew for PSA regional. At around 950 hours he got an invite for a Delta interview. He was hired but had to wait about 3 months to start. In the meantime he hit 1000 hours and upgraded and managed to get a few hours of PIC time before leaving. He wanted to fly for AA because of the CLT base but they wouldn't hire him outside of the flow.
That's why they're paying such big bonuses for DEC's. Pilots can get hired at an LCC or a major just as they get enough time to upgrade.
One of the old regional aircraft I didn't hear mentioned in the long list was a dash 7 & dash 8 that Panam express and Piedmont which use to be.. Henson out of Salisbury MD? I forget, but those were nice aircraft at the time.
On another reminiscing note.. For any of you that managed to get an invite to interview with the majors back in the mid to late 80s.. In addition to having to pay to apply and get the scanner sheet to fill out the medical you had to go through was like applying to nasa astronaut program.. Last 2,3 or 4 days with all the psych tests and brain scans and blood work and talking with psychologist.. It was crazy what you had to go through. And if you didn't get on with one airline there were like dozens of others to apply to... They have all dissappeard.. And the medical is being able to find your way there! 😁 And if you got through all of that and we're selected you moved on to the simulator ride..
Back in 2002 I got paid 11.50 after taxes per flight hour.
I was hired right out of the Marine Corps by Southwest. I was up against more qualified applicants with time at the majors. I was humble, proficient concise and respectful, and was hired. Today, all of us would have been hired. It was much harder back then. Every other airline turned me down.
I had a lot of time, and every qualification except an ATP, because I wasn’t old enough, when going to the military. Once out in the fleet, flying time was scarce. I moonlighted as an instructor, but busting tires at Sears paid more. 😢
I was very lucky having a father and grandfather who had planes and flew, but they made me work for it. I traded hard labor on my grandpa’s farm, and my dads cow-calf operation, for flying time. Dad was a CFI.
The thing about an airline career, you can have a concurrent career doing something else. Especially if you can’t sit still like me. I farm and ranch to this day, and left the airlines at 50 years old. Zero regrets, I’m thankful for everything Aviation allowed me to do. But what I can do as a large scale farm and ranch is very rewarding. Watching a patch of dirt transform in to an oasis exploding with life. It’s at minimum equal to cloud surfing. Both share an odd satisfaction one gets from the struggles and pain it took to get there. Even though it is easier for the next generation of aviators now, it’s still much tougher than most of life’s endeavors.
What do I do if my airplane is making a ‘brbrbrbr brbrbrbrbbrbr brrrrrrr bebrbrbrb’ sound ?
The time may be now, but my timing always sucks. 4 times and god knows how much money I've spent trying to get into aviation...I just can't do it any more. Pre Covid was my best last chance where I could afford to make it happen.
don't sweat it, you dodged a bullet, you just don't know it yet. Don't stake your happiness on a career choice that hinges on being born on the right decade. It's the orbital opposite to any measure of meritocracy. Also recognize that most people exhibit optimism bias, where if it worked out for them it's because they're special, and if you didn't then it's because of a personal failing on your part. As this comment section highlights in spades, there's TONS of people who get spit out by the aviation industry, most just move on and don't post about it.
If there's anything to lament, it's the insane cost of recreational piston aviation. That's where I think a lot of people would find reprieve from the inclination to wanting to do it professionally at the expense of their families and financial solvency, but the costs simply are unattainable for very little reward (especially when talking about factory built certified airplanes, and the byzantines maintenance rules and overpriced parts and obligation to contract an AP). Experimental thankfully is available, at least that's my retirement plan, as an unhappy certified airplane owner.
Great show, I'm older and persuing my private pilot license and want to eventually teach or fly a corporate gig. But my son graduates HS next year and is looking to become a pilot, this interview really opened my eyes to the possibilities of what's possible. Does anyone know of where I can get a listing of the accredited schools where you can get through in only 1000 hours. We're in Columbus OH and not sure OSU is one of them.
Not sure of your age/situation, but I started late as well. Commercial at 38, B-1900 at 39, regionals (RJs) at 40, and then finally a major at 49. This was all during the "Forgotten decade" and really, really low pay era if it's any inspiration.
A friend of mine recently got hired by a regional when he turned 21. Did all his training at a part 61, built his time as a CFI, spent less than 60K and about two years from PPL rating to hired by the airlines. He's currently doing his sim training.
@@craigsanders6925 is regional the same thing as domestic airlines like united, American Airlines etc? Also, how’s his pay as a new pilot?
@@momsspaghetti8093 Yep, same thing, just not a major like United, Delta, etc... I think he started about 90K annually, but I'm not positive on that figure.
@@craigsanders6925 oh okay I see. Considering a career in aviation but there are so many barriers to it and it can get confusing. Plus the cost to become one 😬
You needed a degree back then because it reduced a stack of 10,000 résumés to perhaps 5,000.
You might thank the airline industry for making the job of regional airline pilot so bad that nobody wanted to do it…creating the void that we’re experiencing now.
Banging around eight to ten legs a day in a Jetstream at $15/hr and 90 hours a month was considered “paying one’s dues.” Nowadays, not so much…
Yep, been there flying the Jetstream 3100 and back in those days you had to pay to apply to tonthe airlines to have your app considered... $25 or $50 and the cost of a stamp to mail it and wait.
San Andres IS IN Colombia, not by Colombia.
I had hit the nuclear button (w/o telling my at-the-time boss) hated my higher ed job, and was ready to say "screw it, I quit - I'm going to be a flight attendant while I go through flight school finish getting my license and become a pilot" my interview with Delta was for March 23rd, 2020. My employer, University of Connecticut closed for the spring semester due to covid effective Monday March 23rd, 2020. In March 2022 I left that higher ed job and with June right around the corner, I'm happy to report I've flown every month since last May, and crossed 50,000 passenger miles in a single year. Now yes, I'm not a pilot, but now I'm in a job that pays well enough to get me back into the pilot's seat, and keeps me around aviation.
Just a suggestion from an old guy: don’t become a pilot, or really do anything in your aviation career, for the money. Don’t chase jobs, don’t chase equipment unless it’s just what you really want to do. If you’re in this job for any reason other than you just love to fly you’re going to have a long road ahead. Do your job, pursue your career goals and savor every millisecond of the flying. The rest will come.
Retired after 42 years and wouldn’t trade one single day. It’s the greatest job and career in the world. Bill Gates doesn’t have enough money to buy what I have done.
How long do people expect this pilot shortage to last? Is it fair for someone who's just starting out now to expect strong demand in a couple years when they finally have the ATP?
My guess is at least five more years and possibly ten for the pilot shortage. Unless something drastic happens like the FAA raises retirement age or if single Pilot flight decks were authorized.
SkyWest technically did not furlough anybody. For about 10 days new hires in training were being told by company to go home & pound sand, but SAPA came in and got them back on payroll with back pay…. And they furloughed no pilots out of new hire training. So SkyWest did ok dealing with Covid initially.
I see what you did there... smart 👌
SkyWest has never furloughed
no need, people quit on their own after a couple years at SkyPEST.
Why aren't the guys wearing their chart pattern leggings?
I would do anything to be a pilot. Too bad I'm red / green colorblind 😔
I'd rather peel potatoes than EVER work for manslaughter airline Inc.
monroe?? NLU grad?
A certain 141 flight school in Florida says that from zero to Private/IR/CSEL/CMEL/CFI/CFII/MEI is now about $96,000, but I know several peeps who had 100 hours before they passed Private.
also, congress making the 1500 hour rule was retarded, considering the morons in congress.
One of my first cases was against AMR for firing pilot for false reasons. He was intimidated for filing for state assistance and they targeted him. We collected for his family.
Why not?
I was hoping to never here the word Metro again, lol. I think that is my least favorite airplane.
And Meanwhile in Canada aka Canuckland….
I tried to be a regional airline pilot at PSA recently at the ripe age of 61. It was the least professional organization I ever tried to work for. They totally disrespected my 13000 hours of experience and, 5 type ratings, and 20 year military career and seemed to focus only on the australian and other asian students who seemed to be willing to take the 6 month wait on health insurance because their countries paid for their health benefits while they waited. Yeah, I fly single pilot on the 1900 that American Airline pilot is bragging about every day / single pilot, now into and out of Hartsfield. I believe that all the current regionals are full of pilots who dont love aviation, havent paid their dues. I literally hope American, that I airline I once wanted so badly to fly for, goes under. And I flew that Shorts as a Capt. as well. I bet neither of those 2 young ladies ever did. Young people like the who runs this channel should tow banners, instruct for years, fly Caravans in the NE, or make 18000 a year in their current position forever! Lets see how bad they want it.
Thanks, I thought I woube the only old aviator.. I'm. 62 now my interviewers weren't even born when we were flying real airplanes with steam guages and no auto pilot or radar, the memories flying bank checks and film processing at night and lots of instructing to build hours
Because it was crappy for me, it should stay crappy for everybody! SMH
Younger people don’t have it easy. We are crushed by 60-90k student loans for flight schools or take YEARS to get the ratings and hours.
I got my PPL from the same flight school that Christy did her first discovery flight with, its a small world.
Is the current environment just a fluke of the early retirements and training slump caused by C19? Do you see a glut of pilots chasing the new generous salaries driving wages back down to where they were?
Its a good thing employers are dropping the degree.
Has nothing to do with flying and airplane.
is she still wearing those vfr sectional yoga pants?
👍❤️😎✈️
what they keep forgetting to say is that you're still on the hook for those 1,000 hours from between your flight training and getting hired on. and saying that you get experience as a cfi is retarded because instructors don't fly the plane but maybe a few minutes per flight. how many times have you had the instructor land the plane and fuck it up?
true
Replace pilots with computers and get it over with.
lolol
Where did you get the eagle shirt with the old blue and red chicken?
Great episode! I remember those old days, I have the battle scars to prove it! It’s an amazing career. Anybody still deciding jump on in, the water is warm!! Btw Delta and Endeavor never furloughed a single pilot during Covid! Making a decision on what airline you want to hang your hat? Just google “Airline profit sharing” 🥰
No furloughs but many voluntary leaves of absence.