Hello Keith, Nice comparison. the two machines are nice for smaller job shops imo. We run 380 amp multi-gas plasma system which would do alot better than the plasma cam, but we also do production cutting for customers on our machines.
I own a shop with 2 flow waterjets, that wazer machine is just plain awesome. while I might cut 3" thick Steel with ease, most people simply dont need that.
horses for courses here, if you want to just pop out a mild steel base plate with holes and crack on with a job then its plasma all day long, if you want super crisp brass plate cut or any other exotics then its waterjet for sure, we have both industrial machines here in my home shop and we use them accordingly. your waterjet part took 2 hours but you never said how long your plasma part took ? i would guess at under 10 mins easy. waterjets are the ducks nuts but every machine has its place. good video mate, keep em coming.
G'day Keith, remember back when we did this type of job manually or outsourced to a commercial cutting shop? Small jobshops are all about trying to do as much in-house to maximise the profits (that is how I roll). The Waza Pro accuracy is more than good enough for most jobs , at reasonable machine purchase price, that a small job shop can afford. Very few small shops can stump up 100k-200k in the current economic climate.
That is so true, at any time I could be faced with a downed machine and loose the convenience of it, how did I getter done before and I did keep it humble.
Hi Keith, Laser cutters have similar problems as well, the tail of the beam trails the entry side, and in thick material results in a hole to the exit side where you have a nice sharp corner to the entry. Plasma usually causes a larger hole on entry point compared to cut width, which can be avoided by punching through in waste and running up to the actual cut line. Every option has its good points and bad. I was quite surprised that your wazer would cut that thickness. That was pretty impressive from a small machine, and did it quite quickly. I know the big ones can handle significant thicknesses, but are a lot more powerful and expensive. I have seen Jason from fireball tools cut like a "b" shape out of a piece of steel bar, about 200mm long, so 200mm depth, that was impressive, and the kerf width was pretty even top to bottom. We are certainly living in a time where there are more ways to do things. Regards, Dennis.
Interesting comparison. Perhaps you could optimize the program for the plasmsa to account for the pierce dross? Maybe pierce the center of the end of the slot and walk a circular path outward to finish radius. 🤔
25:25 For the Wazer, would it be possible to do the piercing off of the cut line, and then move in? Would this eliminate the larger pierce hold in the cut line? Curious if the plasma cutter can be fine-tuned for better performance. Also, what's the cost comparison between the two? Guessing the plasma cut part is equivalent cost due to the necessary rework.
Some anti-spatter and better settings on the PlasmaCAM would produce better results than shown. It will never compare with a commercial waterjet, especially on stainless, to be sure but I’m not sure the difference is that dramatic between these two with the exception of a degree or three of bevel on plasma cutting. I can see where that could be an issue on some parts. I usually send those files to my local steel company and have them cut on their 6kW laser.
An additional benefit with the water jet is the avoidance of a heat affected zone to speak of. I work with applications that may be several inches thick and require machining to true up edges. Heat affected zones may harden materials that will be hard on or destroy subsequent tooling.
Regarding plasma cutting on stainless steel. There are plasma torches designed to use two different gases simultaneously. One gas is for the cutting arc and the second gas is used as a shield gas. The best results are to use what is called H-35 gas ( 35% hydrogen and 65% argon) as the cut gas and you can use nitrogen as the shield gas. The result is that you get a smooth clean cut surface on all grades of stainless steel with no oxidized cut surface.
So you said the cost was $31.21, that’s just the time to run the Wazer? Then you add the cost of the material and your programming time to get your cost? So for profit you add your percentage plus time for machining? I’m just curious more about the roughed out cost, that $31.21 seems cheap, how does that compare to the plasma table cost? Cool video, that’s a good comparison to the different ways of doing those parts.
@@Hoaxer51 that is just nozzle on time, on most waterjets and cnc equipment you can program in operator costs, electricity etc too. to your end cost, not sure if Keith did it that way.
It fogs somewhat because of temperature difference between tank water and new incoming water, the ceramic coating does as well as Rain-X, helps but not 100%
A commercial water jet would make your part in about one tenth a time with about ten times the accuracy. It will be reasonable for all those measurements to be within one or two thousandths of an inch of each other. While cutting it 10 times the speed the rate of abrasive utilization will be about the same so it would actually use one 10th the amount of abrasive which is of course the major component of the cost of operation. The primary difference between real water jet machine and the wazer is a commercial water jet machine will cut at about 60 to 90,000 PSI which makes a huge difference. Because the energy conveyed by the water stream is related to the square of the velocity a much higher pressure has a profound effect on the energy conveyed to the part and the rate at which it can be cut. The accuracy, time and cost are all vastly improved. I routinely make parts on the water jet in steel up to about two inches thick although much of my work is in thinner materials. It will readily cut thicknesses well beyond two inches but I have never encountered a requirement for that in the work that we do . This machine has two axes of servo controlled tilt which allows it to correct for taper so even thick cuts are quite straight. Without this correction cuts and materials starting at about one quarter inch show taper and up at 2 inches the taper is enormous and intolerable in many cases. The quality of the water jet is good enough to produce finished parts in many applications but in some applications we use it to cut blanks for subsequent machining where better tolerances and finishes are required. It's a very useful addition to traditional machining technology and saves a lot of time.
I absolutely agree with you 100%! The size of the machine, the pressure output of the machine and the cost of the machine will have all differences in the capabilities; it all comes down to what fits your job shop bill. For years I have had my eyes on the EDGE waterjet machine and others seen at shows I’ve been too. Back 10 years a 4’ x 4’ waterjet machine was just under 100K. I needed an addition to my job shop, I didn’t need to make the waterjet my whole job shop so hence my choice in my purchase of my WAZER PRO.
I dont think your use case is the same as keiths. The smallest industrial unit I worked on took an 8 x 4 sheet and cost 10 times a wazer. It was one of the smallest foot prints available and the small bed was higher maintenance than larger beds that needed digging less frequently. I doubt Keith could fit even that small unit in his shop, so the wazer fills a hole he perceives. I personally send out parts like this. Specialist shops doing just waterjet, laser and plasma cutting can deal with the running cost of waterjet much easier than occasional use shops. That small unit also had a drill. Used it to do the pierce on thick materials to cut time and get a better finish with less mess. Would actually be a great addition for the wazer, piercing seems to be a particular weak point.
Throughout my 50 year career even back to the days of naval shipyard work, repair was up when liberals were in control of government, because no one could afford new, even our armed services. Sad!
@@KeithFenner In fact in both of our lifetimes, the economy in general has been better under Democratic leadership than Republican rule. Don't have to believe me - look at the numbers
seeing your back on utube and not even promoting rumbel and even having changed name from the turnwright machine works i figure a lot must have happened , would it be beneficial to go back thru your vids to find out what or did it never get explained on utube?
I'm still proceeding to post most importantly new content on Locals and Rumble. I have been holding back on You Tube, so I can fill this time slot in our elections to pick up the stupid money both parties dump into making their point to each other through advertisements. My dissatisfaction with Google and You Tube is slightly just behind Facebook which I totally shit canned back before making the move to the new shop. This is not the time for anyone to be quiet, truth, facts and results. My promise to you is that I’ll make my best attempt to give you a video every other day until the election whether you watch it or not.
@@KeithFenner i do thank you alot for your vids sir and hope you get the most out of it at anytime ,for the elections i cant be of any help not my side of the pond so they say , it is a pitty that those 2 are the ones who you can choose harris is crap but so are the 80+year olds get someone new and younger in there who isnt so distantant of the public and has been living in a ivory tower for the last couple of decades . you sometimes have to stop someone from drinking when their drunk same goes for work you some times have to make somebody stop work when they reached a certain age whether they like to work or not. just as you some times have to take their car keys so the cant go in there car and cause accidents. fulltime work should be till a certain age also for politicians and president does seem like a fulltime job to me
Cognitiveness is way more import than age! I know the older you get the more that has a "chance to be an issue" but when it is not the case, the benefit of wisdom superseds. Also I had to double check on my introductions and the links are all in for my other platforms. It's all good! cheers...
Love that the Westinghouse fan is still kicking! Wish they still made good fans like that.
Hello Keith, Nice comparison. the two machines are nice for smaller job shops imo. We run 380 amp multi-gas plasma system which would do alot better than the plasma cam, but we also do production cutting for customers on our machines.
I own a shop with 2 flow waterjets, that wazer machine is just plain awesome. while I might cut 3" thick Steel with ease, most people simply dont need that.
Enjoyed the comparisons.
Very nice comparison on the two systems. The water jet has a cleaner margin and doesn't leave a heat effected zone on the part.
Thank you!
horses for courses here, if you want to just pop out a mild steel base plate with holes and crack on with a job then its plasma all day long, if you want super crisp brass plate cut or any other exotics then its waterjet for sure, we have both industrial machines here in my home shop and we use them accordingly. your waterjet part took 2 hours but you never said how long your plasma part took ? i would guess at under 10 mins easy. waterjets are the ducks nuts but every machine has its place. good video mate, keep em coming.
G'day Keith, remember back when we did this type of job manually or outsourced to a commercial cutting shop? Small jobshops are all about trying to do as much in-house to maximise the profits (that is how I roll). The Waza Pro accuracy is more than good enough for most jobs , at reasonable machine purchase price, that a small job shop can afford. Very few small shops can stump up 100k-200k in the current economic climate.
That is so true, at any time I could be faced with a downed machine and loose the convenience of it, how did I getter done before and I did keep it humble.
Thanks for sharing Keith
Interesting comparison. Thanks Keith!
Hi Keith,
Laser cutters have similar problems as well, the tail of the beam trails the entry side, and in thick material results in a hole to the exit side where you have a nice sharp corner to the entry.
Plasma usually causes a larger hole on entry point compared to cut width, which can be avoided by punching through in waste and running up to the actual cut line.
Every option has its good points and bad.
I was quite surprised that your wazer would cut that thickness. That was pretty impressive from a small machine, and did it quite quickly. I know the big ones can handle significant thicknesses, but are a lot more powerful and expensive. I have seen Jason from fireball tools cut like a "b" shape out of a piece of steel bar, about 200mm long, so 200mm depth, that was impressive, and the kerf width was pretty even top to bottom. We are certainly living in a time where there are more ways to do things.
Regards, Dennis.
I had no idea a Wazer could handle anything that thick in stainless.
Thank you for the detailed explanation on the differences of the 2 cutting methods.
Interesting comparison. Perhaps you could optimize the program for the plasmsa to account for the pierce dross? Maybe pierce the center of the end of the slot and walk a circular path outward to finish radius. 🤔
Great video Keith. Could you show the hopper, and at the end, cleaning out the garnet waste. How do you dispose, and what is the cost to operate?
25:25 For the Wazer, would it be possible to do the piercing off of the cut line, and then move in? Would this eliminate the larger pierce hold in the cut line?
Curious if the plasma cutter can be fine-tuned for better performance.
Also, what's the cost comparison between the two? Guessing the plasma cut part is equivalent cost due to the necessary rework.
There is room for adjustments and design of the cut paths, both WAZER and PlasmaCAM
👍👍
Some anti-spatter and better settings on the PlasmaCAM would produce better results than shown. It will never compare with a commercial waterjet, especially on stainless, to be sure but I’m not sure the difference is that dramatic between these two with the exception of a degree or three of bevel on plasma cutting. I can see where that could be an issue on some parts. I usually send those files to my local steel company and have them cut on their 6kW laser.
Your right, not much diference.
An additional benefit with the water jet is the avoidance of a heat affected zone to speak of. I work with applications that may be several inches thick and require machining to true up edges. Heat affected zones may harden materials that will be hard on or destroy subsequent tooling.
Regarding plasma cutting on stainless steel. There are plasma torches designed to use two different gases simultaneously. One gas is for the cutting arc and the second gas is used as a shield gas. The best results are to use what is called H-35 gas ( 35% hydrogen and 65% argon) as the cut gas and you can use nitrogen as the shield gas. The result is that you get a smooth clean cut surface on all grades of stainless steel with no oxidized cut surface.
Best Wishes from Orlando Keith, Cheers from your Number 1 fan in Orlando.....Paul
Someone’s making a Cummins exhaust
WATER JET FOR ME
Great vid as always fantastic craftsmanship Trump 2024 👍🏻🇺🇸👍🏻🇺🇸👍🏻🇺🇸👍🏻🇺🇸
Olá amigo Keith,gostei de mais este trabalho e das considerações referente as peças!!!
Boa sorte sempre!!!
I had no idea that the cost was that high.
It's all relative to saving in other ways. All processes have consumable cost in them as well. I was surprised it was only.
So you said the cost was $31.21, that’s just the time to run the Wazer? Then you add the cost of the material and your programming time to get your cost?
So for profit you add your percentage plus time for machining? I’m just curious more about the roughed out cost, that $31.21 seems cheap, how does that compare to the plasma table cost? Cool video, that’s a good comparison to the different ways of doing those parts.
@@Hoaxer51 that is just nozzle on time, on most waterjets and cnc equipment you can program in operator costs, electricity etc too. to your end cost, not sure if Keith did it that way.
лайк.
Nice Keith
Nice work on the Wazer... Curious... Are you using Deionized water in that system or running any pre filter?
Pre-filter
Do you think using Rain-X on the inside of that hood make it easier to see the part as it's being cut or is it just unnecessary?
It fogs somewhat because of temperature difference between tank water and new incoming water, the ceramic coating does as well as Rain-X, helps but not 100%
@@KeithFenner Makes sense. Those new parts DO look a lot better than Plasma cut ones. Right tool for the job, right?
A commercial water jet would make your part in about one tenth a time with about ten times the accuracy. It will be reasonable for all those measurements to be within one or two thousandths of an inch of each other. While cutting it 10 times the speed the rate of abrasive utilization will be about the same so it would actually use one 10th the amount of abrasive which is of course the major component of the cost of operation. The primary difference between real water jet machine and the wazer is a commercial water jet machine will cut at about 60 to 90,000 PSI which makes a huge difference. Because the energy conveyed by the water stream is related to the square of the velocity a much higher pressure has a profound effect on the energy conveyed to the part and the rate at which it can be cut. The accuracy, time and cost are all vastly improved. I routinely make parts on the water jet in steel up to about two inches thick although much of my work is in thinner materials. It will readily cut thicknesses well beyond two inches but I have never encountered a requirement for that in the work that we do . This machine has two axes of servo controlled tilt which allows it to correct for taper so even thick cuts are quite straight. Without this correction cuts and materials starting at about one quarter inch show taper and up at 2 inches the taper is enormous and intolerable in many cases. The quality of the water jet is good enough to produce finished parts in many applications but in some applications we use it to cut blanks for subsequent machining where better tolerances and finishes are required. It's a very useful addition to traditional machining technology and saves a lot of time.
💯 I have a Omax and the quality from the wazer is pretty bad in comparison.. 😅
What machine do you use (what manufacturer) and what does it cost? I'm even afraid to ask.
I absolutely agree with you 100%! The size of the machine, the pressure output of the machine and the cost of the machine will have all differences in the capabilities; it all comes down to what fits your job shop bill. For years I have had my eyes on the EDGE waterjet machine and others seen at shows I’ve been too. Back 10 years a 4’ x 4’ waterjet machine was just under 100K. I needed an addition to my job shop, I didn’t need to make the waterjet my whole job shop so hence my choice in my purchase of my WAZER PRO.
I dont think your use case is the same as keiths.
The smallest industrial unit I worked on took an 8 x 4 sheet and cost 10 times a wazer. It was one of the smallest foot prints available and the small bed was higher maintenance than larger beds that needed digging less frequently.
I doubt Keith could fit even that small unit in his shop, so the wazer fills a hole he perceives.
I personally send out parts like this. Specialist shops doing just waterjet, laser and plasma cutting can deal with the running cost of waterjet much easier than occasional use shops.
That small unit also had a drill. Used it to do the pierce on thick materials to cut time and get a better finish with less mess. Would actually be a great addition for the wazer, piercing seems to be a particular weak point.
Pro tip , man... paragraphs are your friends... and ours ... 🙄😂
Quick question, have you experimented using 95/5 N/H2 with cutting stainless with the plasma?
No I haven't.
I'm sorry but did I miss where the plasma flange cut out time was said?
Great to see your business is doing great! ..... especially under democratic rule
Throughout my 50 year career even back to the days of naval shipyard work, repair was up when liberals were in control of government, because no one could afford new, even our armed services. Sad!
@@KeithFenner In fact in both of our lifetimes, the economy in general has been better under Democratic leadership than Republican rule. Don't have to believe me - look at the numbers
seeing your back on utube and not even promoting rumbel and even having changed name from the turnwright machine works i figure a lot must have happened , would it be beneficial to go back thru your vids to find out what or did it never get explained on utube?
I'm still proceeding to post most importantly new content on Locals and Rumble. I have been holding back on You Tube, so I can fill this time slot in our elections to pick up the stupid money both parties dump into making their point to each other through advertisements. My dissatisfaction with Google and You Tube is slightly just behind Facebook which I totally shit canned back before making the move to the new shop. This is not the time for anyone to be quiet, truth, facts and results.
My promise to you is that I’ll make my best attempt to give you a video every other day until the election whether you watch it or not.
@@KeithFenner i do thank you alot for your vids sir and hope you get the most out of it at anytime ,for the elections i cant be of any help not my side of the pond so they say , it is a pitty that those 2 are the ones who you can choose harris is crap but so are the 80+year olds get someone new and younger in there who isnt so distantant of the public and has been living in a ivory tower for the last couple of decades .
you sometimes have to stop someone from drinking when their drunk same goes for work you some times have to make somebody stop work when they reached a certain age whether they like to work or not.
just as you some times have to take their car keys so the cant go in there car and cause accidents.
fulltime work should be till a certain age also for politicians and president does seem like a fulltime job to me
Cognitiveness is way more import than age! I know the older you get the more that has a "chance to be an issue" but when it is not the case, the benefit of wisdom superseds.
Also I had to double check on my introductions and the links are all in for my other platforms. It's all good! cheers...
Did I hear you right, Its takes 2HRS to cut that out. Who knew
cummins.. Thanks for the video!!
My son used to run a Laser cutter for a farm equip mfg. company here. Neat handy tool!