Great explanation of the differences between these two popular bow designs. I like them both. I also like recurves and hybrids. I think I counted 22 bows I have that are traditional style bows. The desire to explore the different designs is never ending for me. Right now the two bows you show in this video are my two main bows of interest.
I was driving in the county I grew up and saw a " Longbows" sign rusting away and grown over. I hit the brakes and knocked on the door. He brought me to his basement and put his favorite true D-shaped longbow in my hands and said "pull that." The thing felt alive. A true D-shaped bow is a whole 'nother animal. It's all about the draw cycle. The modern reflex deflex emasculates the power of the D-shaped longbow.
"The modern reflex reflex emasculates the power of the D shaped longbow.." That is definitely a matter of opinion and personal preference. I've been a longbow archer for 30+ years now, and own several of each, although the R&D longbows I have are very mild reflex and deflex. Much like the one he displays in the video. I really like them both, and if I had to make a pros and cons list for both, I would have to think very hard to come up with any legitimate cons for either. I completely understand tho what you mean when you say the bow "felt alive" when you draw it. That is the feeling I look for in any bow when I'm looking for or trying out a new one. It doesn't matter what kind of bow it is..an R&D longbow..a true D shape..or even a recurve (I only own 2 recurves). That "alive" feeling is in all my bows when I draw them.
That was beautifully explained. Have you done a force draw curve for both of the bows? And what are the implications with regard to both stacking and the end of the power stroke? Even more extreme was the K4 Kodiak from the pre patent days. My thought on that design was the --need for speed-- with stored energy up front so the power stroke ended as strong as possible. So, build energy quickly and keep it in play as long as possible until the arrow leaves the string. I think, right now, that modern designs and materials have gotten us to good choices enabling a happy place most shooters can find for themselves.
The Deer Seeker brands 54 inch Semi-Recurve R&D is like this as well if do get the right poundage this being the biggest issue is at 27 inches the weight is off by quite a bit, or I would have got a 60 pound of this model to have the bow at my 24.5 inch draw a 40--45 pound draw given the price where at the time 60 pounds was the max. I ended up with a 54 inch kids recurve from Great Plains Traditional Bow Company that is exactly 45 pounds at 24 inches where they used a very mild R&D to the bow. I paid as much as a Bear Grizzly Recurve for the price being one of the few kids models the brand was willing to make for my poundage not charging at least $100 if not more then most expensive loaded options on most expensive model or saying we only mark regular bows down to 26 inches for a bow period as I did not want to have to do math. I was tempted to buy for my bow 2 of the 29/30 pound at 27 inch draw Bear Titan then use the right epoxy to glue the bows together but first removing the handle and building a new handle for my needs until I found the brand I got a bow from.
@caseysmith544 Wow. That sounds like ALOT of work and headaches, and money, just to get to get a bow that suits your needs. Sorry you have to go thru that brother.
@@mattjack3983 I found a Left eye dominate that is for my draw size and weight finally in 2022 after looking for 2 years after getting back to archery in 2020.
@@caseysmith544 I've been shooting fairly regularly since I was about 11 (almost 44 now) and it's only been in the last few years that I've really understood the importance of dominant eye shooting, and how much of a difference it makes in accuracy, especially for traditional archers who shoot instinctively or gap shoot. I happen to be right handed and also right eye dominate, and i slowly over the years sort of "evolved" into shooting instinctively after many years of being a gap shooter. But just having a better and more thorough understanding of eye dominance has improved the consistency in my accuracy quite a bit. Especially when taking long range shots (over 25-30 yards) As a traditional longbow hunter I wouldn't take a shot at an animal any further out than about 25 yards, but I do enjoy quite a bit taking long 40 and 50 yard shot while target shoots. And having that better understanding of eye dominance these last 3 years or so has helped tremendously with that.
@@mattjack3983 about the only way to fix if using the wrong eye is to use a more modern sight be it a compound/hunting one or a modern target one either compound or target style. The open pin is not really going to work for using the non dominate eye. My brother has both at nearly almost at same dominancy maybe left one off by a hair but both fighting for dominancy so with everything including scopes for riffles he has to keep both eyes open whereas my dad and I with scopes have to close the non dominate eye. My mom has to shoot without scopes ever becuse she has an even more rare 100% dual dominancy where her eyes are both focusing at the same time no way to switch over from one eye to the other doing the close an eye thing for a few seconds before opening again like my brother can do to refocus his right eye, my mom can't get the other eye to unfocus from her sight as both eyes have when corrected with glasses 100% the same dominancy. In the army my mom had to shoot without her glasses on to pass the shooting part becuse of this issue. If my mom had ever been in war she would have had to remove the scope, ask to not use one due to medical reason and only use the rails/front sight on her gun.
Sam great video and a good explanation on the differences between R&D and the Hill style longbows. The comments about light arrows is especially important because it makes a big difference in the feel of the bow. Do you have any experience with Steve’s reverse handle string follow bows? I think the one I’m interested in is called the Ramer. Thanks again for the videos!👍
All I know is that the reverse handle bows were some of the best for old target archery pre 1950's when true recurves came out with the newer modern grips becuse the reverse handle tend to have the least amount of left or right rotation unless you had a rounded English grip but due to the size of the English rounded grip most of these bows had none or a very mini cutaway shelf not ideal for target archery unless using an English longbow in medieval/middle ages type competitions. Very few used or needed a semi/nearly recurve or static tip recurve for target archery, so these people kept using the more stable models with the then era styles of sight first made in the late 1930's but not popular until after WWII until late 1950's-1960 when more modern took off or using the older aiming stakes if that was what the archer was used to.
@@SamkoTradBow Good to know, a similar brand from Minnesota St Patrick Longbows that only makes straight or micro set/follow longbows has a reverse handle longbow and in the video a 2 years ago top 2024 on the TH-cam channel, The Push Archery with the movie, THE AMERICAN SEMI LONGBOW (ASL) - Traditional Archery. One of the archers is using that model of the brand everyone has their longbows from.
@@SamkoTradBowI had a Schulz all natural string follow bow that I loved but it didn’t hold up well in the area that I lived. Looking at the Ramer to replace it for hog hunting in Florida. Sam is there a way to contact you via email or PM? Thanks
Thanks for the video, Jason. I'm currently shooting a mild R/D longbow, and the performance is really nice. However, I would like to try a Hill style bow someday.
I also think the length of the riser plays a big amount of performance in terms of the amount of working limb length. I love my Thunderstick III by Jim Reynolds, no stack at all for my draw length, just smooth and fast.
great video as usual. I just want to touch on the "hand shock" aspect. You nailed it light arrows cause 99 percent of so called hand shock. effectively shooting light arrows from any bow even compounds puts you closer to dry fire conditions, the energy in the limbs has to be put into the arrow...Period. Have a look at the modern high speed compounds you'll notice they all have string stops some even have 2 ( they're those rods that protrude with rubber bumpers on them) they're there to stop the string from coming forward and reduce the left over energy in the limbs, 😯 effectively "acting" like an arrow absorbing the force. Anyway don't shoot light arrows people, you're going to eventually ruin your bow. correct arrow weight = no shock, quieter and more efficient down range penetration (if the arrows are tuned) piss poor arrows even if "heavier" can cause goofy vibrations in your bow as well. hope this helps, 👍
Thanks for sharing such valuable information! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
Great video as always the bow I just bought is reflex deflex and to be honest shooting my buddies hill style long bow his way smoother than my reflect deflex. That’s why I’m saving up right now for a hill style though lol
Oh I never knew the actual benefit of a reflex/deflex bow. I just always known its not a recurve! :D But having often explained the difference between the recurve vs the reflex/deflex to ppl who dont know the difference, I often wondered what the benefit of a reflex/deflex were. But I was thinking about it in the wrong "end" or "perspective". Comparing it to the one step-above-it-bow. I had to see it from the longbows pov ofc. Now I get it. So basically its the prototype (back in the days) for a recurve mechanic I guess. Now I kinda want a reflex/deflex bow XD I mean jsut to represent history/technology. Good stuff thank you for video
Basically they aren't longbows. A longbow is a bow that uses length to deal with the length to draw length design. So if you want a bow that is 60 inches long and draws to 34 inches, you are going to have to insert some tricks if you don't want that bow to just hit a wall on the way to 34 inches. If what the bowyer does is make the bow longer, and that is the only trick employed, then it is a longbow. The fact is that no modern longbows only use that one trick. Even Hill bows. Get some calipers and you will see why. Recurves are R/D (not R&D).
I disagree with some actually poorly made mass produced longbows like the SAS Pioneer being a crappy longbow and seeing people in reviews complaining becuse the handle is due to a bad too low of locator on the mild curved style of grip where the curved is not the issue, but the locator where it is ends up being the issue on a longbow being 1/2--1 inch off from the proper spot of just below the shelf. I mean you can have a locator on a true long bow if made correctly, the Great Plains Traditional Bow Company is having both a universal the Hill model (need to ask for the Hill model like the Youth recurve or Youth longbow) and the modern Traditional Longbow using a notched grip where if you wanted a straight grip you would have to ask in the build process but you still need to use a full grip with the universal locator, as close as you can do when using the bow.
He Said recently in a previous video he likes the Selway stringers, and They make several different options but for longbow/nearly longbow he used the model with the rubber stopper on the end of the bow.
I actually make my own 2 cup leather stringers. Never found one I like. Selway makes excellent stringers for recurves. But for longbows I like a leather 2 cup. But I believe there are some leather 2 cup ones made and available now. I just never tried them.
@@SamkoTradBow Leather 2 cup have been around mainly sold by brands who make English longbows with a leather strap, some of the better old models from 1300's-1400's had leather cups on a leather strap for the bows unlike the more basic stringer or heavier poundage English war bows that had stringers that used a notch spot to pull back a bow that if no stringer the string was tied to the bow and would not come off being for that bow only.
Great explanation of the differences between these two popular bow designs. I like them both. I also like recurves and hybrids. I think I counted 22 bows I have that are traditional style bows. The desire to explore the different designs is never ending for me. Right now the two bows you show in this video are my two main bows of interest.
Love it. Can never have too many bows
I was driving in the county I grew up and saw a " Longbows" sign rusting away and grown over. I hit the brakes and knocked on the door. He brought me to his basement and put his favorite true D-shaped longbow in my hands and said "pull that." The thing felt alive. A true D-shaped bow is a whole 'nother animal. It's all about the draw cycle. The modern reflex deflex emasculates the power of the D-shaped longbow.
Now that is a pretty awesome story and experience
"The modern reflex reflex emasculates the power of the D shaped longbow.."
That is definitely a matter of opinion and personal preference.
I've been a longbow archer for 30+ years now, and own several of each, although the R&D longbows I have are very mild reflex and deflex. Much like the one he displays in the video. I really like them both, and if I had to make a pros and cons list for both, I would have to think very hard to come up with any legitimate cons for either.
I completely understand tho what you mean when you say the bow "felt alive" when you draw it. That is the feeling I look for in any bow when I'm looking for or trying out a new one. It doesn't matter what kind of bow it is..an R&D longbow..a true D shape..or even a recurve (I only own 2 recurves). That "alive" feeling is in all my bows when I draw them.
Thank you, love my Northern Mist classic the Best. Thanks to you.
love mine too
Great content as always!
thanks
Thanks Jason for this video.
More easy to understand with French translate IA for me.
From Bordeaux, France 👍😉🏹
Love the Ai translator.
Great explanation Jason!
Thanks
That was beautifully explained. Have you done a force draw curve for both of the bows? And what are the implications with regard to both stacking and the end of the power stroke? Even more extreme was the K4 Kodiak from the pre patent days. My thought on that design was the --need for speed-- with stored energy up front so the power stroke ended as strong as possible. So, build energy quickly and keep it in play as long as possible until the arrow leaves the string. I think, right now, that modern designs and materials have gotten us to good choices enabling a happy place most shooters can find for themselves.
The Deer Seeker brands 54 inch Semi-Recurve R&D is like this as well if do get the right poundage this being the biggest issue is at 27 inches the weight is off by quite a bit, or I would have got a 60 pound of this model to have the bow at my 24.5 inch draw a 40--45 pound draw given the price where at the time 60 pounds was the max. I ended up with a 54 inch kids recurve from Great Plains Traditional Bow Company that is exactly 45 pounds at 24 inches where they used a very mild R&D to the bow. I paid as much as a Bear Grizzly Recurve for the price being one of the few kids models the brand was willing to make for my poundage not charging at least $100 if not more then most expensive loaded options on most expensive model or saying we only mark regular bows down to 26 inches for a bow period as I did not want to have to do math. I was tempted to buy for my bow 2 of the 29/30 pound at 27 inch draw Bear Titan then use the right epoxy to glue the bows together but first removing the handle and building a new handle for my needs until I found the brand I got a bow from.
@caseysmith544 Wow. That sounds like ALOT of work and headaches, and money, just to get to get a bow that suits your needs. Sorry you have to go thru that brother.
@@mattjack3983 I found a Left eye dominate that is for my draw size and weight finally in 2022 after looking for 2 years after getting back to archery in 2020.
@@caseysmith544 I've been shooting fairly regularly since I was about 11 (almost 44 now) and it's only been in the last few years that I've really understood the importance of dominant eye shooting, and how much of a difference it makes in accuracy, especially for traditional archers who shoot instinctively or gap shoot. I happen to be right handed and also right eye dominate, and i slowly over the years sort of "evolved" into shooting instinctively after many years of being a gap shooter. But just having a better and more thorough understanding of eye dominance has improved the consistency in my accuracy quite a bit. Especially when taking long range shots (over 25-30 yards) As a traditional longbow hunter I wouldn't take a shot at an animal any further out than about 25 yards, but I do enjoy quite a bit taking long 40 and 50 yard shot while target shoots. And having that better understanding of eye dominance these last 3 years or so has helped tremendously with that.
@@mattjack3983 about the only way to fix if using the wrong eye is to use a more modern sight be it a compound/hunting one or a modern target one either compound or target style. The open pin is not really going to work for using the non dominate eye. My brother has both at nearly almost at same dominancy maybe left one off by a hair but both fighting for dominancy so with everything including scopes for riffles he has to keep both eyes open whereas my dad and I with scopes have to close the non dominate eye. My mom has to shoot without scopes ever becuse she has an even more rare 100% dual dominancy where her eyes are both focusing at the same time no way to switch over from one eye to the other doing the close an eye thing for a few seconds before opening again like my brother can do to refocus his right eye, my mom can't get the other eye to unfocus from her sight as both eyes have when corrected with glasses 100% the same dominancy. In the army my mom had to shoot without her glasses on to pass the shooting part becuse of this issue. If my mom had ever been in war she would have had to remove the scope, ask to not use one due to medical reason and only use the rails/front sight on her gun.
Good job at explaining the difference.
Good explanation
very interesting and thanks for sharing
very welcome
My two bonick slick stick R&D bows are 7to7.5 brace hight 58inches. I'm getting a new ASL longbow soon Thanks for your help Jason!! Great video!!
Sam great video and a good explanation on the differences between R&D and the Hill style longbows. The comments about light arrows is especially important because it makes a big difference in the feel of the bow.
Do you have any experience with Steve’s reverse handle string follow bows? I think the one I’m interested in is called the Ramer. Thanks again for the videos!👍
All I know is that the reverse handle bows were some of the best for old target archery pre 1950's when true recurves came out with the newer modern grips becuse the reverse handle tend to have the least amount of left or right rotation unless you had a rounded English grip but due to the size of the English rounded grip most of these bows had none or a very mini cutaway shelf not ideal for target archery unless using an English longbow in medieval/middle ages type competitions. Very few used or needed a semi/nearly recurve or static tip recurve for target archery, so these people kept using the more stable models with the then era styles of sight first made in the late 1930's but not popular until after WWII until late 1950's-1960 when more modern took off or using the older aiming stakes if that was what the archer was used to.
I have shot his ramer. Its an amazing bow and shoots butter smooth.
@@SamkoTradBow Good to know, a similar brand from Minnesota St Patrick Longbows that only makes straight or micro set/follow longbows has a reverse handle longbow and in the video a 2 years ago top 2024 on the TH-cam channel, The Push Archery with the movie, THE AMERICAN SEMI LONGBOW (ASL) - Traditional Archery. One of the archers is using that model of the brand everyone has their longbows from.
@@SamkoTradBowI had a Schulz all natural string follow bow that I loved but it didn’t hold up well in the area that I lived. Looking at the Ramer to replace it for hog hunting in Florida. Sam is there a way to contact you via email or PM? Thanks
@@caseysmith544Thanks for the information Casey I appreciate it!🙏
What's the brace height of the to bows
I shoot my brace at 6 and 3/4 on both.
Thanks for the video, Jason. I'm currently shooting a mild R/D longbow, and the performance is really nice. However, I would like to try a Hill style bow someday.
Love both styles. Amazing longbow options today.
I wanted a longbow and landed on the Baraga. It is a great shooting bow
it sure is! Love steves bows
I also think the length of the riser plays a big amount of performance in terms of the amount of working limb length. I love my Thunderstick III by Jim Reynolds, no stack at all for my draw length, just smooth and fast.
I love mine. Its a shrew....30 year warranty
Shrew bows are excellent.
great video as usual. I just want to touch on the "hand shock" aspect. You nailed it light arrows cause 99 percent of so called hand shock. effectively shooting light arrows from any bow even compounds puts you closer to dry fire conditions, the energy in the limbs has to be put into the arrow...Period.
Have a look at the modern high speed compounds you'll notice they all have string stops some even have 2 ( they're those rods that protrude with rubber bumpers on them) they're there to stop the string from coming forward and reduce the left over energy in the limbs, 😯 effectively "acting" like an arrow absorbing the force. Anyway don't shoot light arrows people, you're going to eventually ruin your bow. correct arrow weight = no shock, quieter and more efficient down range penetration (if the arrows are tuned) piss poor arrows even if "heavier" can cause goofy vibrations in your bow as well. hope this helps, 👍
well said and great examples. I love heavy arrows.
Your bows are Gorgeous who made them
Northernmistlongbows.com
Thanks for sharing such valuable information! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
Do you hold and shoot both the same way with heel down
@@PatrickBlack-q1n no. I do shoot the hill bow that way. The r/d bow i shoot more web pressure
OK thank you 😊
I want bof 😂 I hope to have a stable of reflex/deflex, Hill style D shaped bows, recurves and everything in between.
can never have too many
I love the reflex deflex shape sweeping longbow, looks sexy if you can call a bow sexy?
Great video as always the bow I just bought is reflex deflex and to be honest shooting my buddies hill style long bow his way smoother than my reflect deflex. That’s why I’m saving up right now for a hill style though lol
I love all bows. But once I shot a hill bow seriously I was hooked and wont go back to an rd bow.
Oh I never knew the actual benefit of a reflex/deflex bow. I just always known its not a recurve! :D
But having often explained the difference between the recurve vs the reflex/deflex to ppl who dont know the difference, I often wondered what the benefit of a reflex/deflex were. But I was thinking about it in the wrong "end" or "perspective". Comparing it to the one step-above-it-bow. I had to see it from the longbows pov ofc. Now I get it. So basically its the prototype (back in the days) for a recurve mechanic I guess. Now I kinda want a reflex/deflex bow XD I mean jsut to represent history/technology.
Good stuff thank you for video
Basically they aren't longbows. A longbow is a bow that uses length to deal with the length to draw length design. So if you want a bow that is 60 inches long and draws to 34 inches, you are going to have to insert some tricks if you don't want that bow to just hit a wall on the way to 34 inches.
If what the bowyer does is make the bow longer, and that is the only trick employed, then it is a longbow.
The fact is that no modern longbows only use that one trick. Even Hill bows. Get some calipers and you will see why.
Recurves are R/D (not R&D).
I disagree with some actually poorly made mass produced longbows like the SAS Pioneer being a crappy longbow and seeing people in reviews complaining becuse the handle is due to a bad too low of locator on the mild curved style of grip where the curved is not the issue, but the locator where it is ends up being the issue on a longbow being 1/2--1 inch off from the proper spot of just below the shelf.
I mean you can have a locator on a true long bow if made correctly, the Great Plains Traditional Bow Company is having both a universal the Hill model (need to ask for the Hill model like the Youth recurve or Youth longbow) and the modern Traditional Longbow using a notched grip where if you wanted a straight grip you would have to ask in the build process but you still need to use a full grip with the universal locator, as close as you can do when using the bow.
great plains makes a great bow
@@SamkoTradBow I agree having one in youth longbow
It is the SAS Pioneer reviews that says the bow is flawed even when using the proper grip.
Nice video. Looking forward to more like these!! I’m considering going trad at 50.
you will love shooting a traditional bow. Never too late to start.
So called reflex deflex bow is as old as the Assyrians, that is the nearest you can come to a so called delfex reflex bow
Was soll diese blödsinnige KI Übersetzung. 😢
What two pocket bow stringer do you like? Thanks for the video. Just the video I wanted because I am thinking about buying a deflex reflex longbow.
He Said recently in a previous video he likes the Selway stringers, and They make several different options but for longbow/nearly longbow he used the model with the rubber stopper on the end of the bow.
I actually make my own 2 cup leather stringers. Never found one I like. Selway makes excellent stringers for recurves. But for longbows I like a leather 2 cup. But I believe there are some leather 2 cup ones made and available now. I just never tried them.
@@SamkoTradBow Leather 2 cup have been around mainly sold by brands who make English longbows with a leather strap, some of the better old models from 1300's-1400's had leather cups on a leather strap for the bows unlike the more basic stringer or heavier poundage English war bows that had stringers that used a notch spot to pull back a bow that if no stringer the string was tied to the bow and would not come off being for that bow only.