Here's the good news : playing an army that is currently trash competitively is perfect as a new player: -by the time you're finished painting, it will have received a significant buff -No one's going to call you the OP army of the game and hate you for playing it (unlike the eldar players currently) -Votann are a completely brand new army, so it's a super safe investment overall Funnily enough, this is a perfectly good time to play them if you're new to the hobby.
It’s a really really good time to begin collecting and playing LOV, death guard and admech, considering all the stuff you mentioned AND all the meta slaves dumping their armies on 3rd party markets because they’re bad for a week
1. Unless always losing puts a new player off the game. 2. Building your 2000pt army, finally finishing it, then having the points adjusted so your army is now 1650pts. Go buy more models, kid! 3. Having the units you passed on, because they were suboptimal, suddenly get buffed so that they’re a must take. 4. Having the units you did buy suffer from points adjustments or rules changes, such that they are now a less than optimal selection. Admittedly, less of a problem with LoV because the range of models is so limited.
Good points on both sides tbqh. I think I am more in agreememt with valquenta though. people said similar things about GSC, and those players who stuck it out are far more experienced than meta chasers and are loving life right now.
maaan I want something like star craft's golliath. I really dont care about land trains, egg armors and bikes with wheels, I just wanna walkers to be happy
I just realized, because character is considered a separate unit when it's bodyguards are destroyed it means a unit with a leader should yield 2 judgment tokens.
@@timo395 Leaders count as one unit for all rules purposes, except for rules that trigger when units are destroyed. It is on page 39 of the rulebook I believe.
I have really been enjoying playing Votann in 10th ed. Don't get me wrong, I haven't won any games yet, but I always have a good time. Rock and Stone, the Ancestors are watching! Edit: I won my very next game. A 2k vs Necrons. Figures.
I know a lot of people are down on Votann right now, but I'm gonna be playing them no matter what because I just think they're so fucking cool aesthetically. Looking forward to Auspex giving me the rundown on how best to play these guys! Honestly, last edition I was worried about playing them because I thought people would assume I was just chasing the hot new meta because they were so powerful. Now I'm worried I'll get laughed out of the store for playing these guys.
True true. I’m never dropping the squats, not that I drop armies, but I wanted their return for so long and am happy with their reinterpretation so I’m not going to stop playing them.
Brother didnt even mention that Appraising glare doesnt just give you a JT but removes it during that same phase. which is the command phase, which means its useless.
Hope they fix it. I also hope we get more unit types like jump dwarves, walkers, and flyers and maybe the equivalent of an MBT akin to the Astartes Gladiators. I really like my grim dark dwarves.
Have been waiting for this video sense the Indexes dropped, you're the man as always Auspex. Sad what this edition did to us but we will keep trudging forward, hopefully wave 2 has some fun stuff.
Check the current release rate and timing. Could be well over a year before they get a codex. What, Marines and Tyranid in the fall, Dark Angels and Necron at Xmas? That’s six months already.
Fun kits, odds rules and feelsbad use for the main batteline unit being nothing a JT machine for thunderkyn and heathguard. I think giving back some of their range for their guns could help with them all being 5M
I think what you say at around 15:19 is a really key part of what makes the faction weak. Factions with limited unit pools really need their datasheets to do a lot of the heavy lifting, as so much strength in 10th is tied up in individual statlines and datasheet abilities. It would have been nice for them to get their codex (and more units ) sooner. I guess the LoV are learning that ancestoral grudges cut both ways.
37:25 Only thing with taking multiple is, it's one of those characters where their ability is worded so you can only use one, no matter how many you have. Any extras would purely be for their combat. Still worth considering, but you won't get more JTs out of it.
You still need to have line of sight, so having a second Kahl should ensure you get to put a token on what you want to. Idk if I’d take more than two though.
The Nerf of BS 3+ going to 4+, is horrible, massive change in the whole design of the army, and just feels like another the Imperial Guard version of T'au, but worse.
Don't have the rules handy, but if i take the teleport crest on the hearthguard unit, then the champion joins with the save crest, they can still deep strike, right?
Idea for better Judgment Tokens: they do the same as they currently do, but the roll counts as unmodified roll a 5 +1 from token counts as unmodified 6, i.e. it would trigger Lethal hits from Khal for example. It would also make possible to improve the roll by 2 instead of 1, also interesting. You could get that heavy railgun to hit on 2+ and get mortals on 5+ to wound. What do you think, would that be sensible, or way to OP?
I think it's worth mentioning the value of buying an Iron Lord's unit for on other reason than it 75 points to get another Sagitaur in to your list. And a hand full off Iron Lord squads are not even all that bad to cart around the battelfield in thier own personal moon buggies
just started 40k with the votann i waited until the new indexes dropped collecting and painting all last year. I didnt want my first experience to be people saying im just meta chasing, i'm running 3 sets of hearthguard with kahls and everything else goes into the judgment token meet grinder. I get stomped by seemingly everything. Life is rough here in the galactic core. Doesn't feel right playing the army like this but i dunno how else to run them.
I think according to the wording on the "Grim Efficiency" only one of them including uthar can give a judgement token. It's not 3 kahls=3 JT a round, it's 3khals + Uthar= 1 JT per round with LoS restrictions
New to 40k as I started in 10th edition so I have no idea how good Votann were in 9th but I am enjoying them a lot and have won abunch of my games against other players by just grinding my opponent down and winning later rounds instead of tabling someone off the board or vice versa, Also from how I read Appraising Glare the JT lasts on every unit on that objective so long as they stay on the objective and disappears if thye move off of it regardless if it says in this phase or not.
I am afraid not. I thought the same but someone pointed out that they count as having an extra judgment token, not that they gain one. So effectively it is currently useless.
Deep Strike on a big Hearthguard unit is not usable, because on 2000 Points you can only put 500 points on reserve... So only one unit left to put in a Transport... Because 330 + one other unit (135 to 165p) already eat up the 500 budget 😢 so either 2 saguitaur or 1 Landfortress filled, th rest stays empty...
@@balemoran3168 so strategic reserves plus units in Transports eat up the budget, but shocking trups are only reserves because they have the special rule to start in reserve? Then I can have 10 hearthguard in reserve an still put up to 500 points on transports? Page 43 on my German basic rules. It's written a little complicated in german "not vice versa" so I did not understand first correctly 🙄
@@balemoran3168 it is written that the limit is including the units in transports so on 2k games strategic reserves plus units in transports maximum 500 points. See basic rules 10th page 43
@@JochenThe1 That is for strategic reserves only. The books does point out, that strategic reserves are reserves, and there are no very clear description in what they think is included in the *core book* . It is hella confusing, but check out the leviatahan mission rules, that very much makes it clear that *reserves* in general are different, and are capped at half of your points/half of your units (both). So, 500 points in strategic max, and the total (including deepstrikes and transported units) is half of your army and half of the number of units you have. Yeah, it is badly written, and yeah, they will need to reinclude the latter in every mission pack. Otherwise 100% deepstrike would be technically legal. In fact...it is legal on the Only War mission.
It seems to me, or uthar's ability is spelled out incorrectly, for example, why should he change the damag roll to 6 in his profile when he does not have a weapon that deals damag d6 or d3, it turns out that GW just incorrectly spelled out his rule, and this should work for the whole squad (for example, with magna rail) or what, I just don't get it
What I don't get is why GW made Guard and Tau faction rules improve the actual BS characteristics, while Votann (another BS 4+ army) had to make do with plus one to hit. That alone is going to warrant an edit in the near future.
When it said double up on melee does that mean I can now equip my warriors with melee? If so can someone tell me I have a new squad and wished we had that opportunity in 9th
It doesn't really matter if wargear is free if it absolutely sucks, for example, if wargear would cost any points, taking anything for warriors would be a waste, as their wargear (maybe with exception for scanner) is worthless
I'm extremely disappointed in the community regarding the lack of backlash they are giving GW about this. GW nerfed votann into a crater. The faction has essentially become unplayable. It is a rare new faction AND a xenos faction too. Instead of the community standing up for fellow members who collect votann, they stay silent or kick the people while they are down because in their stupid minds somehow they believe it's the players fault to have an army that was OP when it got released. And now they feel it's justified that votann are pounded into a crater. It's childish behavior at best.
I disagree with quite a few of these takes. Sure I understand wanting to keep things positive at all costs but the truth is more useful. The only really viable unit in the index is the hearthguard, the rest is various kinds of bad. Characters go from underwhelming (Khal) to terrible (Grimyr). And the JTs are needed to hit somewhat reliably but the troops seem priced as they were in place while it’s actually pretty difficult to assign them now. Ranges are also terrible, made worse because the army is slow, leadership is bad (7 even for the only epic hero the army has). The army has no rerolls and no CP gen aside from the army ability that depends on your opponent to trigger. This means that a Vect ability ruins them as -1 to hit ones do. Also, the JT mechanic is anti synergistic as you get very little by stacking other effects (heavy and the like just counter -1 effects). Finally precision and lone operative are the bane of this army, a single Vindicare is a nightmare for them as they need to get within 12’’ to attack while he targets everything from 48’’ away
I'm not going to hold my breath on it, but I think the Eyes of the Ancestors army rule needs to either be reworked or busted apart completely. Or, as mentioned, give the army more ways to augment handing out the tokens within reason. Otherwise we are going to see their points or wargear constantly flip flop to, quite possibly, no avail. Would be nice if they'd introduce an Impulsor or Rhino equivalent of a Land Fort that is meant to carry a bunch of troops instead of being a gunboat. I know that is wishful thinking though, but I find the Sagitaurs being a Dedicated Transport a point of frustration despite them being a vital part of the chaff tax the army needs in its current iteration. Edit: Basically, the additional detachments in the Leagues' codex need to do *a lot* of heavy lifting to help the faction out. Aside from changes made by GW, obviously.
Tbh if I was games workshop I would have made the unit have 2 choices of what you take it as, but keep it the same kit, while telling people that the second light gunship version will be removed later when the y have a complete army
I'll never understand why gw got rid of the 3rd JT. Would've been real easy to just add the 3rd one as +1ap on the target but I guess that's asking too much.
Either change the lore, or the judgment tokens. Currently we are told they are elite, but game mechanic, you need to sacrifice units to get the tokens that make them good. That sounds fine, if you play a horde faction (meaning change lore and price of models) like the Death Korps Of Krieg. But not when you play Space Dwarfs who think every life is precious, so they can bring back all their knowledge to the space computers to help their kin. If they want to keep the lore, then they need to at least have the aim of sisters of battle, not imperial guards (who get better aim, with just one order). They also need to be more robust, having high thoroughness means nothing when most of the armies have anti infantry weapons and lethal. And replace the judgment token mechanic complexly. That could fit with a stratagem or two for wanting revenge, but as a army mechanic, I would say it is worse than Death guard. Only Admec is worse, and that is only because certain armies gain bonus from battle shock attempts.
Fun or balanced? Making them cheaper so you can field chaff to die and get judgement tokens could do the balance, but I don't think most votann players want a hoard army all about sacrificing units. I would get rid of judgement tokens, or change how they are gained. Focus more on the prospecting / raiding stuff. A smaller change may be to just change them back to BS 3+. Maybe that would be too good, but they aren't fast, they don't have tricks, they are supposed to be slow and tough and shoot well. They are two of those things sufficiently, but their shooting is just not a pillar of the army. You need judgement tokens to make it decent, but they are hard to get, so either make them easier or make them less necessary.
Id say that if an army takes you below half strength, you give a token to one of the units that shot at you of your choosing. same again when you die. Judgement tokens are so much weaker now we should be able to dish them out more easily. 90% of the armies issue is just they made tokens a neccessity to perform even half well, yet they are so rare! Sisters get a +1 to hit for a whole unit just for losing a model/wound. Whilst we have to die entirely? And they already start at BS3! My BIGGEST gripe with the token system as well as like with Ad Mech, you are giving your OPPONENT the choice of who gets tokens, not yourself. Get a unit to grind a squad down to a couple models, then get some random chaff unit to finisb them. BAM the chaff cops the token. Oh something already has 2 tokens? use it last to finish off units because they cant recieve any more tokens. Why should OUR ability be something your OPPONENT gets to manage? Another huge issue is our dex really feels like half an army now. We have no ranged weaponry at all. The longest range we have in the whole game is a bolter sticking out the side of the hekaton. We also have no torrent, stealth, lone operative, smoke, anti monster, precision in the whole game. So we cant be creative with our lists. We have short range, but the guns are inaccurate and weak, we have no movement and our melee is garbage. Like pick a lane. if we have no range, its because our guns should clean up when we get in range. They cant be terrible AND only slightly more range than a shotgun, whats our angle? If everything on the board has 1 or 2 tokens, we start picking up. But the problem is the lack of tokens full stop AND your opponent actually gets to choose who gets the tokens. In short, tokens need to be reworked. The mechanic itself is good. but how they are distributed needs to change.
IMO: warriors need to go to 20 (with 2 heavy weapons replaced with 20% models can have em) and about 8-12 new units, including more battlelines, dedicated melee that wont die when you look at them (damn they could just make a warrior variant with everyone getting kin melee weapon instead of bolter/blaster), plus walkers and flyers
I mean, some restoration like give them back hit on 3+ would help. Currently, they are worse than imperial guards on aim, because guards can use a order to hit on 3+. Votann would need to either aim at the one unit they picked at the start of the game, or lose a unit to get the same 3+. They also as dwarfs have a worse armor than Sisters of battle.
I am not even that worried about how bad votann are... I am just unhappy about how dull the rules are. They have almost no synergies or cool tricks or anything at all in the index that makes you go "Wow!". (At least not in a good way.) Hearthguard are good and... yep. Look at how absolutely boring our only named character is.
@@treytison1444unfortunately, I’ve seen some grown men that cannot handle any dice that roll below statistical average, so I’m not as sure. And I’m also sure that someone who rolled “only 1s and 2s” really only did so on a handful of critical die rolls not actually the entire game.
Auspex, you work too hard. I just want you to make sure that you are taking good care of yourself in between videos. Eating right, drinking plenty of water, getting outside as often as you can. We are very thankful for all the videos, especially with everything going on in the hobby. You are doing a great job keeping us informed on the mountains of new information. Just please remember that we can wait a while longer if you need a break. We aren't gonna find some other channel to watch (unless we already watch it too, but in any case, you won't lose any views). The hobby is important, sure, as it brings happiness to thousands of people worldwide, but your personal happiness should be your number 1 priority. Don't work too hard man. Take a break and go play a couple games, touch grass, whatever you need to to keep smiling. Thanks again man. You've been pumping out several videos a day for a bit now. Don't forget it's ok to take a vacation, we will wait.
The biggest issue i have with the new Index is in 9th they where considered more of a elite army in the lore as well and then in 10th they tone all that down but then make it so you can only have squads of 10 Hearthkyn at most like the mixed signals is what gets me.
@@WandererJester The auto wounds isn't the problem, the problem is all the good army wide rules were slashed, the datasheets are overall worse than 9th, but LoV is still priced like its near elite, while also having anti synergy and poor squad sizes
You do realize in 10th we have units that do automatic mortal wounds on a 2+, right? And they do that out of the box not with 3 tokens on them (and getting 3 tokens on something wasn’t easy despite the amounts of people who don’t play the game kept wailing about)
I played 4 games with them. They are my favorite army to play but every criticism I heard at this point was right. They really need some help. I won 2 games. One against Eldar but just because the player was a beginner (I still struggled a lot against them) And one against Admech. I did a rematch against admech and he just changed his list with lots of units making my few judgment tokens far less effective I lose one against CSM. And there was no match at all Too many very durable and elites unites
4 of my group gathered on the weekend to try out combat patrol. One friend is thinking about starting 40k with Votann Combat Patrol. Man did they suck. I wrecked them with Guard. I was talking him through the game to teach and play. He did beat me on points but his army was in tatters. My first game was against Eldar though. Let's just say that didn't go well for me.
@@DukensteinA1 yep. The weird mission we rolled up made it hard for me to score points. Only the Lord could hold the centre points. As soon as my lord died I could no longer score points for the most part. Votann did suck though. The guard are awful but Votann just felt impotent. The Eldar I played against though, boy, are they strong.
Currently a total garbage army. No synergy, boring mechanics, data sheets which completely contradict lore of the faction (Uthar "The Destined" Ldr 7? In fact all units bar Grimnyr ldr 7... for dwarves... LOL) and rules which don't make sense or are just straight broken (e.g. appraising glare). Needs to a total rework as they are currently pointless. Strikes me as one of the laziest, low effort armies of 10th... clearly GW don't think much of this army.
I want to love the Votann, but I can’t disagree. When I lost battleshock tests, I was scandalized. These are dwarves, for gods sake. If GW just lowers the points, it’s BS. They need a real rework to make them a fun army with actual synergies.
Their performance thus far would indicate that they are doing significantly better than the majority of the armies in the game, so it feels wrong to keep insiating that they're one of the weaker armies, as is Ad Mech. Both armies currently have a winrate of 47% and are outperforming 16 armies.
The army is like… kinda tougher than sisters but hits less hard/consistently, kinda shooty but less durable than admech and kinda synergetic but also not at all because none of the units interact with each other. Like you can put thunderkyn and a iron master together but they don’t interact with judgement tokens at all because you already get +1 to hit from the character and you’re auto wounding on 2+’s…
Grim efficiency got better, you no longer need to risk your kahl, as it say that you select any one model in your army that will hand the token to a unit it can see. , You just need the kahl to be on the field
Has to be a model with this rule - it’s like the eldar Farseer, it’s just a limit to one use per army per turn so you can’t take three and get three tokens per turn
After playing Leagues of Votann in 10th, they are absolutely trash, unfortunately. Playing against Space Marines or really any faction, they just don't have enough AP after their Hekatons are done for, which happens very easily seems like. GW fuckin destroyed this faction, it shouldn't have been so hard as to balance them out. Judgement Tokens don't even feel useful when handing them out.
Hot take - Votanns were pretty much never a good army. They had few broken JT combos that were "fixed" on "day one patch". And unlike Death Guard or AdMech, even their Kill Team are sort of meh. Easily worst Xeno and possibly least playable faction. No dreadnoughts, no flyers, no jump infantry, not even real tanks, super slow unless mounted, no allies (AdMech can ally with Knights and Agents, Death Guard can add Dreadblades and insert themselves into CSM).
Yeah, the lack of units is killing the factions appeal, in my opinion. Walkers; artillery, battle tanks, transports, flyers, all these being missing, is an absolute deal breaker tbh. But we will get some more primaris space marines instead.
Bruh the comments are funny, the army is still good and playable, every army is, just adapt your tactics and get good. Stop chasing meta and looking for quick cheap tricks. Actually play the game and be the tactician your troops need you to be, play into your strengths and bait into your weaknesses
Played a game with them recently at 1000 points and...they suck, just crap stunty marines with tau shooting that move slow as dirt. Barely any rerolls where factions like marines have them coming out their ears. JTs are useless, enhancements are trash, strats aint much better. Yea, not great. Just waiting for GWs next metawatch where they try sound suprised no ones running them at events 😂
There is no positive thing you can say about these guys. All their weapons suck, so they cant kill, their army rule suck so they barely gain any benefit. They are the slowest or second slowest army in the game, so they cant play primary or secondary so they can't even score. And they are all pretty easily killed with low wounds and middeling toughness. And they are priced as elites for NO reason at all. They are literally Space marines but worse in every way, minus 1 wound per model, minus 1 to Hit across the Board for what are suppose to be similar Units, minus 1 to move, but all at the same price. You need your Army rule on all enemies and then you are playing Bad marines with No Rules 👍
How the hell do Tyranids not fit into 40k?? At least go for the generic basic opinion of "tau don't fit in with the grimdark!!" everyone spouts, at least it has some weight lmao
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Fun fact: Leagues of Votann Combat Patrol + Boarding Patrol is exactly 1000 pts.
So, 4 boxes and I've got a bad army? Sounds like a deal!
Who would’ve thought two 500 point boxes equals out to 1000 points.
@@Whoknows21356 Considering they both came out in a different edition it is still pretty convenient.
@@Whoknows21356490 and 510 actually. Funnier thing is boarding patrol is more points than combat patrol
Here's the good news : playing an army that is currently trash competitively is perfect as a new player:
-by the time you're finished painting, it will have received a significant buff
-No one's going to call you the OP army of the game and hate you for playing it (unlike the eldar players currently)
-Votann are a completely brand new army, so it's a super safe investment overall
Funnily enough, this is a perfectly good time to play them if you're new to the hobby.
It’s a really really good time to begin collecting and playing LOV, death guard and admech, considering all the stuff you mentioned AND all the meta slaves dumping their armies on 3rd party markets because they’re bad for a week
Its also bad because playing a weak army makes it hard for you to learn the game.
1. Unless always losing puts a new player off the game.
2. Building your 2000pt army, finally finishing it, then having the points adjusted so your army is now 1650pts. Go buy more models, kid!
3. Having the units you passed on, because they were suboptimal, suddenly get buffed so that they’re a must take.
4. Having the units you did buy suffer from points adjustments or rules changes, such that they are now a less than optimal selection.
Admittedly, less of a problem with LoV because the range of models is so limited.
It is never save to Invest into a new factions, since it will probably Take GW severals years to Figure out their identity
Good points on both sides tbqh. I think I am more in agreememt with valquenta though. people said similar things about GSC, and those players who stuck it out are far more experienced than meta chasers and are loving life right now.
I find it kind of funny that all those cardboard tokens printed with a "3" in their own start box are now completely useless.
That was one of the sad things about seeing the new rules.
I don’t mind the mechanics changing, but was bummed about it just being 1-2 tokens.
But on the other side they have a votann symbol so you can use them as sticky obejtive marker.
They could have made the third one ignore cover or any number of rules too seems like a waste
@@lets-fetz-lets-play True!
@@davidcox6454-1 to enemy save would fit others well i think
I really hope GW releases a robot squad for LoV this edition. They could basically be their version of walkers, terminators, etc.
They have termi-style unit already.
maaan I want something like star craft's golliath. I really dont care about land trains, egg armors and bikes with wheels, I just wanna walkers to be happy
I just realized, because character is considered a separate unit when it's bodyguards are destroyed it means a unit with a leader should yield 2 judgment tokens.
I think if you kill the unit in one go that would not work, not 100% sure.
@@timo395 Leaders count as one unit for all rules purposes, except for rules that trigger when units are destroyed. It is on page 39 of the rulebook I believe.
I have really been enjoying playing Votann in 10th ed. Don't get me wrong, I haven't won any games yet, but I always have a good time.
Rock and Stone, the Ancestors are watching!
Edit: I won my very next game. A 2k vs Necrons. Figures.
Rock an Stone!
Rock and Stone!
Rock and Stone!
Rock and Stone!
Rock and Stone!
it is staggering how hard this faction was nerfed. this might have been the most significant nerf GW has ever done to an army
Twice if we count their points hike on release
Yep, pretty much unplayable now. Shelved till dex drops
there has been a bigger nerf before
@viktorgabriel2554 Indeed there has. Having the entire faction deleted was the biggest nerf possible.
@@jimmysmith2249 Idk man they were undefeated for a while there.
I know a lot of people are down on Votann right now, but I'm gonna be playing them no matter what because I just think they're so fucking cool aesthetically. Looking forward to Auspex giving me the rundown on how best to play these guys!
Honestly, last edition I was worried about playing them because I thought people would assume I was just chasing the hot new meta because they were so powerful. Now I'm worried I'll get laughed out of the store for playing these guys.
It's a rough balancing act. Hopefully GW will do their job and actually balance them.
I'm ride or die with them as well. Mostly because the only other models I have are the Leviathan models, but still
True true. I’m never dropping the squats, not that I drop armies, but I wanted their return for so long and am happy with their reinterpretation so I’m not going to stop playing them.
Dude, I play oldmarines (who suck hind testicle). If anyone gets laughed at for the army they play, it will be me.
That's it lads! Rock and Stone!
Brother didnt even mention that Appraising glare doesnt just give you a JT but removes it during that same phase. which is the command phase, which means its useless.
Suspect this is a misprint.
Looks like another funny typo lol. I think that I'd just play it as "until the end of the turn" tbh, if my opponent would be okay with it
Hope they fix it. I also hope we get more unit types like jump dwarves, walkers, and flyers and maybe the equivalent of an MBT akin to the Astartes Gladiators. I really like my grim dark dwarves.
That one is almost certainly a typo and would just make this instantly outdated.
And yet GW didn't FAQ or errata it
I think JT should be given when a unit goes below half of it's starting strength.
Have been waiting for this video sense the Indexes dropped, you're the man as always Auspex. Sad what this edition did to us but we will keep trudging forward, hopefully wave 2 has some fun stuff.
I suspect they will balance them more as time goes on, sad we have to wait for a codex
@@Creamy.Commander I'd be fine with waiting for the codex if it didn't mean possibly waiting for a year
Check the current release rate and timing. Could be well over a year before they get a codex. What, Marines and Tyranid in the fall, Dark Angels and Necron at Xmas? That’s six months already.
Fun kits, odds rules and feelsbad use for the main batteline unit being nothing a JT machine for thunderkyn and heathguard. I think giving back some of their range for their guns could help with them all being 5M
Yeah with indirect fire running amok in my lgs it really hurts
14:42 "That Necron Stratagem that allows them to return from the dead"
Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down? :P
I think what you say at around 15:19 is a really key part of what makes the faction weak. Factions with limited unit pools really need their datasheets to do a lot of the heavy lifting, as so much strength in 10th is tied up in individual statlines and datasheet abilities.
It would have been nice for them to get their codex (and more units ) sooner.
I guess the LoV are learning that ancestoral grudges cut both ways.
37:25 Only thing with taking multiple is, it's one of those characters where their ability is worded so you can only use one, no matter how many you have. Any extras would purely be for their combat. Still worth considering, but you won't get more JTs out of it.
I like taking 2 in case I lose one early I still have a back up
You still need to have line of sight, so having a second Kahl should ensure you get to put a token on what you want to. Idk if I’d take more than two though.
I just played my first game of tenth today with my beloved Kin... BOY that 5M hurts when all the transports are constantly sold out.
Yarrr harr harrr
I fell you. In germany is not better.
Reeee it's Time Boys! ROCK AND STONE
I’m going to play these guys at the tournament in Tampa
Just finished the New knight video and Boom Votann video, you’re a legend!
The Nerf of BS 3+ going to 4+, is horrible, massive change in the whole design of the army, and just feels like another the Imperial Guard version of T'au, but worse.
Don't have the rules handy, but if i take the teleport crest on the hearthguard unit, then the champion joins with the save crest, they can still deep strike, right?
Time to Diggy Diggy Hole into the grimdark universe of 40K!
It is time to rock and roll with the Squats again!
Idea for better Judgment Tokens: they do the same as they currently do, but the roll counts as unmodified roll a 5 +1 from token counts as unmodified 6, i.e. it would trigger Lethal hits from Khal for example. It would also make possible to improve the roll by 2 instead of 1, also interesting. You could get that heavy railgun to hit on 2+ and get mortals on 5+ to wound.
What do you think, would that be sensible, or way to OP?
Reactive reprisal is good till you realize they need to have judgment tokens on them to fire back lol
I think it's worth mentioning the value of buying an Iron Lord's unit for on other reason than it 75 points to get another Sagitaur in to your list. And a hand full off Iron Lord squads are not even all that bad to cart around the battelfield in thier own personal moon buggies
Does Appraising Glare actually do anything as written, since it only applies "until the end of the phase" and only gets used in your command phase?
just started 40k with the votann i waited until the new indexes dropped collecting and painting all last year. I didnt want my first experience to be people saying im just meta chasing, i'm running 3 sets of hearthguard with kahls and everything else goes into the judgment token meet grinder. I get stomped by seemingly everything. Life is rough here in the galactic core. Doesn't feel right playing the army like this but i dunno how else to run them.
I think according to the wording on the "Grim Efficiency" only one of them including uthar can give a judgement token. It's not 3 kahls=3 JT a round, it's 3khals + Uthar= 1 JT per round with LoS restrictions
Most of the time, I forget this army even exists 😅😂
New to 40k as I started in 10th edition so I have no idea how good Votann were in 9th but I am enjoying them a lot and have won abunch of my games against other players by just grinding my opponent down and winning later rounds instead of tabling someone off the board or vice versa, Also from how I read Appraising Glare the JT lasts on every unit on that objective so long as they stay on the objective and disappears if thye move off of it regardless if it says in this phase or not.
I am afraid not. I thought the same but someone pointed out that they count as having an extra judgment token, not that they gain one. So effectively it is currently useless.
They were so crazy powerful when they dropped the community exploded and gw nerfed them immediately
Also you should just keep using appraising glare like that. It must be a typo to make it functionally useless
Deep Strike on a big Hearthguard unit is not usable, because on 2000 Points you can only put 500 points on reserve... So only one unit left to put in a Transport... Because 330 + one other unit (135 to 165p) already eat up the 500 budget 😢 so either 2 saguitaur or 1 Landfortress filled, th rest stays empty...
The 500pt limit is for strategic reserve. Not reserves. Deep strike units are reserves not strategic reserves.
@@balemoran3168 so strategic reserves plus units in Transports eat up the budget, but shocking trups are only reserves because they have the special rule to start in reserve? Then I can have 10 hearthguard in reserve an still put up to 500 points on transports? Page 43 on my German basic rules. It's written a little complicated in german "not vice versa" so I did not understand first correctly 🙄
@@JochenThe1deploying in a transport are reserves as well not strategic reserves.
@@balemoran3168 it is written that the limit is including the units in transports so on 2k games strategic reserves plus units in transports maximum 500 points. See basic rules 10th page 43
@@JochenThe1 That is for strategic reserves only. The books does point out, that strategic reserves are reserves, and there are no very clear description in what they think is included in the *core book* . It is hella confusing, but check out the leviatahan mission rules, that very much makes it clear that *reserves* in general are different, and are capped at half of your points/half of your units (both).
So, 500 points in strategic max, and the total (including deepstrikes and transported units) is half of your army and half of the number of units you have.
Yeah, it is badly written, and yeah, they will need to reinclude the latter in every mission pack. Otherwise 100% deepstrike would be technically legal. In fact...it is legal on the Only War mission.
Is the LoV army box worth it?
Rock and Stone
I like the LoV, I think they look really cool.
I'm thinking, better detachment rule would be:
no free JTs
JTs stack to 3
3rd doesnt give any buff against enemy, but instead provides 1CP when slain
It seems to me, or uthar's ability is spelled out incorrectly, for example, why should he change the damag roll to 6 in his profile when he does not have a weapon that deals damag d6 or d3, it turns out that GW just incorrectly spelled out his rule, and this should work for the whole squad (for example, with magna rail) or what, I just don't get it
Rock and Stone!
Does Appraising Glare even work as written? It say "until the end of the phase"
What I don't get is why GW made Guard and Tau faction rules improve the actual BS characteristics, while Votann (another BS 4+ army) had to make do with plus one to hit. That alone is going to warrant an edit in the near future.
When it said double up on melee does that mean I can now equip my warriors with melee? If so can someone tell me I have a new squad and wished we had that opportunity in 9th
I just gave up on painting mine. They can sit unpainted on the shelf
Hearthkyn Warriors have always been 10 to 20. Now they are only aloud to be 10. Only time I fielded more than 10 is to fill in points.
Jt should be buffed to auto wounds on 5 and 6 in addition. Minus one Bs army wide was just lols.
It doesn't really matter if wargear is free if it absolutely sucks, for example, if wargear would cost any points, taking anything for warriors would be a waste, as their wargear (maybe with exception for scanner) is worthless
Comment for the Skull Throne
I'm extremely disappointed in the community regarding the lack of backlash they are giving GW about this. GW nerfed votann into a crater. The faction has essentially become unplayable. It is a rare new faction AND a xenos faction too. Instead of the community standing up for fellow members who collect votann, they stay silent or kick the people while they are down because in their stupid minds somehow they believe it's the players fault to have an army that was OP when it got released. And now they feel it's justified that votann are pounded into a crater. It's childish behavior at best.
I disagree with quite a few of these takes. Sure I understand wanting to keep things positive at all costs but the truth is more useful. The only really viable unit in the index is the hearthguard, the rest is various kinds of bad. Characters go from underwhelming (Khal) to terrible (Grimyr). And the JTs are needed to hit somewhat reliably but the troops seem priced as they were in place while it’s actually pretty difficult to assign them now. Ranges are also terrible, made worse because the army is slow, leadership is bad (7 even for the only epic hero the army has). The army has no rerolls and no CP gen aside from the army ability that depends on your opponent to trigger. This means that a Vect ability ruins them as -1 to hit ones do. Also, the JT mechanic is anti synergistic as you get very little by stacking other effects (heavy and the like just counter -1 effects). Finally precision and lone operative are the bane of this army, a single Vindicare is a nightmare for them as they need to get within 12’’ to attack while he targets everything from 48’’ away
Rock and stone everyone!
I started votann in 9th and with this nerf i just drop everything in a box and i wont play 40k anymore
Can votann take assassin's now??
So the +1 Judgement token is if an entire unit is killed or a model from a unit is killed?
Entire unit, but there's a 1CP strat that allows you to hit a unit with a JT if they were brought below half-strength
Are you planning on giving your opinion on the black Templars by way of video in the coming future?
I'm not going to hold my breath on it, but I think the Eyes of the Ancestors army rule needs to either be reworked or busted apart completely. Or, as mentioned, give the army more ways to augment handing out the tokens within reason. Otherwise we are going to see their points or wargear constantly flip flop to, quite possibly, no avail.
Would be nice if they'd introduce an Impulsor or Rhino equivalent of a Land Fort that is meant to carry a bunch of troops instead of being a gunboat. I know that is wishful thinking though, but I find the Sagitaurs being a Dedicated Transport a point of frustration despite them being a vital part of the chaff tax the army needs in its current iteration.
Edit: Basically, the additional detachments in the Leagues' codex need to do *a lot* of heavy lifting to help the faction out. Aside from changes made by GW, obviously.
Tbh if I was games workshop I would have made the unit have 2 choices of what you take it as, but keep it the same kit, while telling people that the second light gunship version will be removed later when the y have a complete army
AdMec when ?
I'll never understand why gw got rid of the 3rd JT. Would've been real easy to just add the 3rd one as +1ap on the target but I guess that's asking too much.
I've gotten super stomped by miracle dice and fate dice and mass lethal hits so I don't think it's asking too much
Should just make the 3rd JT anti-judged 4+
Probably because with only ways to get Judgement tokens are units dying and Khals. You'd never get them up to 3.
@@patrickh8109 well they can deny you judgementtookens by killing you with the same unit over and over again
@@patrickh8109not never. Not even rarely. It’s just uncommon. If something is Killy it will accrue tokens eventually,
Add a comment...
The real question I'd like to ask the community is what do LoV to be more mid-tier or balanced rather than lacking?
Either change the lore, or the judgment tokens.
Currently we are told they are elite, but game mechanic, you need to sacrifice units to get the tokens that make them good.
That sounds fine, if you play a horde faction (meaning change lore and price of models) like the Death Korps Of Krieg.
But not when you play Space Dwarfs who think every life is precious, so they can bring back all their knowledge to the space computers to help their kin.
If they want to keep the lore, then they need to at least have the aim of sisters of battle, not imperial guards (who get better aim, with just one order).
They also need to be more robust, having high thoroughness means nothing when most of the armies have anti infantry weapons and lethal.
And replace the judgment token mechanic complexly. That could fit with a stratagem or two for wanting revenge, but as a army mechanic, I would say it is worse than Death guard. Only Admec is worse, and that is only because certain armies gain bonus from battle shock attempts.
Fun or balanced? Making them cheaper so you can field chaff to die and get judgement tokens could do the balance, but I don't think most votann players want a hoard army all about sacrificing units.
I would get rid of judgement tokens, or change how they are gained. Focus more on the prospecting / raiding stuff. A smaller change may be to just change them back to BS 3+. Maybe that would be too good, but they aren't fast, they don't have tricks, they are supposed to be slow and tough and shoot well. They are two of those things sufficiently, but their shooting is just not a pillar of the army. You need judgement tokens to make it decent, but they are hard to get, so either make them easier or make them less necessary.
Two very thorough answers so far!
Id say that if an army takes you below half strength, you give a token to one of the units that shot at you of your choosing. same again when you die. Judgement tokens are so much weaker now we should be able to dish them out more easily. 90% of the armies issue is just they made tokens a neccessity to perform even half well, yet they are so rare!
Sisters get a +1 to hit for a whole unit just for losing a model/wound. Whilst we have to die entirely? And they already start at BS3!
My BIGGEST gripe with the token system as well as like with Ad Mech, you are giving your OPPONENT the choice of who gets tokens, not yourself.
Get a unit to grind a squad down to a couple models, then get some random chaff unit to finisb them. BAM the chaff cops the token.
Oh something already has 2 tokens? use it last to finish off units because they cant recieve any more tokens. Why should OUR ability be something your OPPONENT gets to manage?
Another huge issue is our dex really feels like half an army now. We have no ranged weaponry at all. The longest range we have in the whole game is a bolter sticking out the side of the hekaton.
We also have no torrent, stealth, lone operative, smoke, anti monster, precision in the whole game. So we cant be creative with our lists.
We have short range, but the guns are inaccurate and weak, we have no movement and our melee is garbage.
Like pick a lane. if we have no range, its because our guns should clean up when we get in range. They cant be terrible AND only slightly more range than a shotgun, whats our angle?
If everything on the board has 1 or 2 tokens, we start picking up. But the problem is the lack of tokens full stop AND your opponent actually gets to choose who gets the tokens. In short, tokens need to be reworked. The mechanic itself is good. but how they are distributed needs to change.
Do Votann need a full Re work, small changes or is just a points problem at this point?
IMO: warriors need to go to 20 (with 2 heavy weapons replaced with 20% models can have em)
and about 8-12 new units, including more battlelines, dedicated melee that wont die when you look at them (damn they could just make a warrior variant with everyone getting kin melee weapon instead of bolter/blaster), plus
walkers and flyers
I mean, some restoration like give them back hit on 3+ would help. Currently, they are worse than imperial guards on aim, because guards can use a order to hit on 3+. Votann would need to either aim at the one unit they picked at the start of the game, or lose a unit to get the same 3+. They also as dwarfs have a worse armor than Sisters of battle.
I am not even that worried about how bad votann are... I am just unhappy about how dull the rules are. They have almost no synergies or cool tricks or anything at all in the index that makes you go "Wow!". (At least not in a good way.)
Hearthguard are good and... yep. Look at how absolutely boring our only named character is.
Push comes to shove you can always throw the Votann main battle tank at someone's head.
My first game with the votann in 10th i rolled almost all 1s and 2s this army sucks
If you rolled all 1s and 2s with any army it would be a poor experience. I wouldn’t base my thoughts on that game alone.
See if you can return the models. Surely must be something wrong with them. XD
You need to exorcist your dice
@@timunderbakke8756 I'm confident this post is a joke
@@treytison1444unfortunately, I’ve seen some grown men that cannot handle any dice that roll below statistical average, so I’m not as sure. And I’m also sure that someone who rolled “only 1s and 2s” really only did so on a handful of critical die rolls not actually the entire game.
Auspex, you work too hard.
I just want you to make sure that you are taking good care of yourself in between videos. Eating right, drinking plenty of water, getting outside as often as you can.
We are very thankful for all the videos, especially with everything going on in the hobby. You are doing a great job keeping us informed on the mountains of new information.
Just please remember that we can wait a while longer if you need a break. We aren't gonna find some other channel to watch (unless we already watch it too, but in any case, you won't lose any views).
The hobby is important, sure, as it brings happiness to thousands of people worldwide, but your personal happiness should be your number 1 priority.
Don't work too hard man. Take a break and go play a couple games, touch grass, whatever you need to to keep smiling.
Thanks again man. You've been pumping out several videos a day for a bit now. Don't forget it's ok to take a vacation, we will wait.
He makes these videos for a living brah... calm down.
You know GW won't let any army be as good or better than space Marines right that was why they removed the squats to begin with
Look at how they massacred my boy...😢
Their release at 9th edition bit too rushed along with World's eater. Hope 10th edition give them better units
The biggest issue i have with the new Index is in 9th they where considered more of a elite army in the lore as well and then in 10th they tone all that down but then make it so you can only have squads of 10 Hearthkyn at most like the mixed signals is what gets me.
I mean, there was no way in hell they were going to give army-wide auto-Wound on 4s with full rerolls anymore.
@@WandererJester The auto wounds isn't the problem, the problem is all the good army wide rules were slashed, the datasheets are overall worse than 9th, but LoV is still priced like its near elite, while also having anti synergy and poor squad sizes
You do realize in 10th we have units that do automatic mortal wounds on a 2+, right? And they do that out of the box not with 3 tokens on them (and getting 3 tokens on something wasn’t easy despite the amounts of people who don’t play the game kept wailing about)
Rock and stonere
I played 4 games with them. They are my favorite army to play but every criticism I heard at this point was right. They really need some help.
I won 2 games. One against Eldar but just because the player was a beginner (I still struggled a lot against them)
And one against Admech. I did a rematch against admech and he just changed his list with lots of units making my few judgment tokens far less effective
I lose one against CSM. And there was no match at all
Too many very durable and elites unites
So they nerfed literally everything. I get they were strong but damn. Choosing more and nerfing judgment would've been enough
4 of my group gathered on the weekend to try out combat patrol.
One friend is thinking about starting 40k with Votann Combat Patrol.
Man did they suck. I wrecked them with Guard.
I was talking him through the game to teach and play.
He did beat me on points but his army was in tatters.
My first game was against Eldar though. Let's just say that didn't go well for me.
Points are what matters.
You wrecked them and they sucked…. But they still beat you. 🤔
Teaching game. Maybe not playing to win.
@@DukensteinA1 yep. The weird mission we rolled up made it hard for me to score points. Only the Lord could hold the centre points.
As soon as my lord died I could no longer score points for the most part.
Votann did suck though. The guard are awful but Votann just felt impotent.
The Eldar I played against though, boy, are they strong.
@@earnestwanderer2471 I wasn't. Like I said technically he won but Votann were just so bad. Even made the shitty guard combat patrol look decent.
@Auspex please. Read appraising glare again.
Shortest video yet
Just like GSC, they still don’t feel like a 40k army to me.
Currently a total garbage army. No synergy, boring mechanics, data sheets which completely contradict lore of the faction (Uthar "The Destined" Ldr 7? In fact all units bar Grimnyr ldr 7... for dwarves... LOL) and rules which don't make sense or are just straight broken (e.g. appraising glare).
Needs to a total rework as they are currently pointless. Strikes me as one of the laziest, low effort armies of 10th... clearly GW don't think much of this army.
I want to love the Votann, but I can’t disagree. When I lost battleshock tests, I was scandalized. These are dwarves, for gods sake.
If GW just lowers the points, it’s BS. They need a real rework to make them a fun army with actual synergies.
I'm curious if the incompetent GW designer that made LoV also made admech and death guard. All 3 suffer from the same issues
Their performance thus far would indicate that they are doing significantly better than the majority of the armies in the game, so it feels wrong to keep insiating that they're one of the weaker armies, as is Ad Mech. Both armies currently have a winrate of 47% and are outperforming 16 armies.
I was thinking about this, and then wondering if part of it is people just getting rules wrong lol
For example, these strategems seem quite good if you use them without properly reading the “when”
What are you talking about? LoV have a 24% win rate this week, with 4 games won out of 21 played this week end.
@@Tulkash01 Make that out of 22, I got my ass clapped by Thousand Sons lol
The army is like… kinda tougher than sisters but hits less hard/consistently, kinda shooty but less durable than admech and kinda synergetic but also not at all because none of the units interact with each other. Like you can put thunderkyn and a iron master together but they don’t interact with judgement tokens at all because you already get +1 to hit from the character and you’re auto wounding on 2+’s…
It is not even tougher than sisters. Yes they have higher toughness, but their saves are worse so they are equal though, but cost more.
Grim efficiency got better, you no longer need to risk your kahl, as it say that you select any one model in your army that will hand the token to a unit it can see. , You just need the kahl to be on the field
Has to be a model with this rule - it’s like the eldar Farseer, it’s just a limit to one use per army per turn so you can’t take three and get three tokens per turn
Indeed, i missread the rules, it's once per turn and only kahl model, the rules is a bit strange to read, it could do with a qaa or precision.
Please…
After playing Leagues of Votann in 10th, they are absolutely trash, unfortunately. Playing against Space Marines or really any faction, they just don't have enough AP after their Hekatons are done for, which happens very easily seems like. GW fuckin destroyed this faction, it shouldn't have been so hard as to balance them out. Judgement Tokens don't even feel useful when handing them out.
This army got shafted the hardest...
Its not fair to them 😢
Heck no, at least they're playable if a bit average. They're not Admech.
At least the Votann doesn't actively buff certain enemy factions like the Admech rad bombardment, lol
So who else needs to spend £180-$250 on Hearthguard then? GW really does suck.
Hot take - Votanns were pretty much never a good army.
They had few broken JT combos that were "fixed" on "day one patch". And unlike Death Guard or AdMech, even their Kill Team are sort of meh.
Easily worst Xeno and possibly least playable faction. No dreadnoughts, no flyers, no jump infantry, not even real tanks, super slow unless mounted, no allies (AdMech can ally with Knights and Agents, Death Guard can add Dreadblades and insert themselves into CSM).
Yeah, the lack of units is killing the factions appeal, in my opinion. Walkers; artillery, battle tanks, transports, flyers, all these being missing, is an absolute deal breaker tbh.
But we will get some more primaris space marines instead.
oooh boy, you just earned a couple of judgement tokens for than statement (be happy they are nerfed) :D
Bruh the comments are funny, the army is still good and playable, every army is, just adapt your tactics and get good. Stop chasing meta and looking for quick cheap tricks. Actually play the game and be the tactician your troops need you to be, play into your strengths and bait into your weaknesses
Played a game with them recently at 1000 points and...they suck, just crap stunty marines with tau shooting that move slow as dirt.
Barely any rerolls where factions like marines have them coming out their ears.
JTs are useless, enhancements are trash, strats aint much better.
Yea, not great. Just waiting for GWs next metawatch where they try sound suprised no ones running them at events 😂
I didn't win a single serious game with them, except against ad mech and DG xDDD
There is no positive thing you can say about these guys.
All their weapons suck, so they cant kill, their army rule suck so they barely gain any benefit.
They are the slowest or second slowest army in the game, so they cant play primary or secondary so they can't even score.
And they are all pretty easily killed with low wounds and middeling toughness.
And they are priced as elites for NO reason at all.
They are literally Space marines but worse in every way, minus 1 wound per model, minus 1 to Hit across the Board for what are suppose to be similar Units, minus 1 to move, but all at the same price.
You need your Army rule on all enemies and then you are playing Bad marines with No Rules 👍
Votan comes off as a fan-fiction faction. Just like Nids, they just don't fit into the world at all.
How the hell do Tyranids not fit into 40k?? At least go for the generic basic opinion of "tau don't fit in with the grimdark!!" everyone spouts, at least it has some weight lmao
@@krilc Nah, Nids are nothing but a way for the game makers to ret-con things. Nids do not canonically exist in 40k.