Anything that doesn't fit someone's narrative will cause some cognitive dissonance. Believers have a narrative. There is also a narrative of the critics -- which is that the evidence is simple, and the case is closed. I see people experiencing dissonance by arguments that threaten that narrative as well.
My opinion is if Joseph smith had invented the golden plates, he would have seen that the kinderhook plates were a ruse. If he knew the golden plates were fake, its obvious that the kinderhook was just a test to see if he was a prophet or not. Of course he cpuldnhave just seen it as an opportunity to seem prophetic to his colleagues, but theres an obvious risk if he knows theyre fake.he obviously believed they were real, so logically it makes sense that he at least believed that the golden plates were genuine
It’s good to know the ways in which active LDS members justify this. I was wondering, since as a member no one ever even acknowledged this occurrence. It wasn’t until I already left the church that I even heard of the plates. However, you said at 3:28 the GAEL was a FAILED attempt at a secular translation of the papyrus associated with the Book of Abraham. So Smith incorrectly translated one papyrus and then used that to translate the plates, thus being wrong twice in Egyptian hieroglyphics. You brushed right over that one. Book of Abraham papyrus is also wrongly translated by Joseph yet it was published, so…. “Not a priority” really doesn’t hold weight here.
I think you are missing the point. All evidence suggests that the GAEL was created long after the translation of the Book of Abraham. The handwriting found on the GAEL seems to be that of various clerks and scribes, all of whom were far more educated and literate than Joseph Smith. Neither Smith, nor the Church has ever claimed that the Book of Abraham, or anything else produced by Smith, was the result of a secular interpretation. The admittedly little evidence that does exist, suggests that the GAEL was created by Smith's scribes, based on false linguistic assumptions, and was at best an intellectual attempt to replicate the Gift and Power of God, and failed. We do not know what specific hierogpyphics Joseph was using, or even if any were present, which seems unlikely given the presidents. Since the Kinderhook plates were never translated, I am not sure how they can be evidence of a failure. Back in the 50s and 60s there were many members who were hopeful they would turn out to be legitimate, including some prominent leaders. There was never any official revelation or even assertion on the topic, and after modern chemical and archeological tests proved them fakes, interest almost completely disappeared, which would explain why you likely did not hear of them while a member.
Most of the papyrus that JS translated the book of Abraham from were lost in the Great Chicago fire. The small portion that was preserved were translated by Egyptologists and found to be Egyptian death rituals, the book of breathing. You can't say JS papyrus translation of the book of Abraham was false when we don't have most of the papyrus it was translated from.
The fact that the church (and the prophets/seers/revelators) believed in the authenticity of the plates until 1980 tells me there's a lack of propheting/seeing/revelating going on...
Actually one some leaders believed in the Kinderhook plates, others rejected them, and most claimed to be neutral. The LDS Church never issued an official statement as to their authenticity.
Why question is how many times is Joseph smith your prophet allowed to make mistakes before he is a false prophet. Just put a number to it let’s be generous and give him 20 times.
Interesting. I love hearing explanations on this. Does not effect my testimony at all. Thank you so much for sharing this information David, well done.
If it doesn't affect your belief, then you need to assess the way you look at evidence based arguments. You can't honestly say that it's likely that a man sent by God has been tricked into translating a load of garbage. Furthermore, doesn't the book Abraham affect your belief . It should do !!!
@@misterpete8001 we Mormons love and adore our false prophets. The Mormon culture is beautiful and sweet.😁 we don’t care about no gotdamn evidence we know by the spirit that Joseph was a Prophet of God. We were taught this, pray about it and we know is of God. We know the Book of Mormon is true because it’s what I’ve been hearing all my life as a Mormon.😊
The Kinderhook Plates absolutely proves that Joseph Smith was willing to compromise truth in the name of God. Both bowl shapes, which are not the same, have been proven to be completely false. The fact that they were the only characters to be remotely similar and yet were said to be the same language screams deception by Smith, not just by the hoaxers. Saying that the Book of the Dead was actually the Book of Abraham "by Abraham's own hand," doesn't help his case. So, yes, false prophet.
Say I seem to be having some trouble finding “revealed by god” when Joseph smith was speaking concerning the kinderhook plates, do you think you can show me where it says anything remotely of that nature?
Over the next month or so we're going to be looking at some of the conspiracy theories people have come up with about the origin of The Book of Mormon ... it gets pretty whacky. It's going to be fun!
David Snell one conspiracy theory I’ve heard is that he found a golden book and it was the ancient version of the Book of Mormon. And he used a rock in a hat to translate it into English!
You diminish the credibility of Joseph's words about the kinderhook plates because it was written by Clayton. Why not apply the same logic to the different versions of the first vision? Is it because the one primary source written by JS himself is a contrary narrative to the accepted version in the PoGP, not written by JS directly?
It is not just that they are Clayton's words and not Smith's, but the priority Smith's actions implied. Not to mention the disagreement about attributed claim. Clayton wrote that the Kinderhook Plates were written by a descendant of Pharaoh, while Parley P Pratt and many others claimed they were a Jaredite record. After that examining for part of one day, JS who had to all appearances been very excited about the prospect, just ignored them. The is no other record of JS even mentioning them again, letting alone attempting to provide a translation. While people surrounding Smith were obviously excited, and such excitement continued for decades afterwards, Smith himself did and said nothing. I think silence in this case speaks volumes.
That 'Egyptian Alphabet' was anything but. It may not bother you, but couldn't another prophet at sometime in the following 140 years receive revelation that it was a hoax, rather than relying on the conclusion of the scientific tests of man?
Short answer is yes. But the question isn't "could" something happen. Lots of people "could" have done lots of things they didn't. The Kinderhook plates were never really as big a deal as critics like to assume. I do not feel qualified to answer why God did or did not do something, but I don't feel it was important enough.
@Joseph the Wanderer Strip away the bluster of your comment, and you're left with nothing. You have no basis for claiming that revelation can be accurate with respect to ANYTHING, regardless of how convenient it may be to your position. If praying-to-know where a reliable epistemic methodology it would be testable and verifiable. Why don't you pray to know something that you don't already know, but that you could easily learn after the fact? Generate a random number and pray to know what it is before checking. (and don't excuse the idea out-of-hand, you need to do it in the full belief that it will work just like you do when praying about the BOM. If you do it right, it'll feel just like any other spiritual witness you rely on and it will still FAIL spectacularly). Prayer and revelation do not work any better than chance. You are NOT justified in using it to discern truth until such time as it is shown to be a valid PATH to truth. You're building your epistemological house on axiomatic sand with that crap! Smith's inability to recognize a false record when he encourages others to employ what amounts to self-deception to support his own false writings is deeply problematic to Mormonism. Even trying to float the argument that Smith may have known that they were bogus doesn't get you away from the fact that the documents were eventually held up as genuine by 'inspired' Mormon leaders, but those plates were forgeries. You're free to use 'discernment' to know if the BOM is legit, I'm just warning you that you're likely to meet with the same disappointing results.
@Joseph the Wanderer Back with the bluster... Church leaders were happy to hold the Kinderhook plates up as evidence of ancient American historical writings that bolstered the narrative in the book of Mormon for ages so I don't know what you're looking for beyond evidence of something I never claimed... They never revealed the fraud themselves, surely you can see that as suspicious... To have justified belief you need to have SOME justification. If revelation could be shown to work reliably, you'd have that justification, but since it can't, you can NOT gain a justified belief via revelation. Don't you find it awfully convenient that revelation can only tell you things you can't verify by any other means? Even if it could, you're not justified in believing it can.
This is one of the better counter arguments that I've heard. But why would the Lord's mouthpiece make an attempt at a secular translation. Why didn't God just tell him the plates were a hoax?
We don't know- God might have told him that they were a hoax. He didn't ever pursue or attempt to purchase them, as he had with other ancient records. He never claimed to be receiving revelation on them. Maybe he tried to receive revelation on them and failed.
Well the D&C describes the process by which Revelation is Received. It is not simply or easy, and the command is to study the matter out in one's own mind first.
So let me get this straight. Joseph, the prophet of the restoration, states that these plates were about "a descendent of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh etc. etc,. But then we learn that he was more than just wrong, he had been duped with these fake copper plates. In summary, he makes a revelatory statement as the prophet, and is just completely wrong. Then, he works on translating the plates and messes around with the GAEL he created - which is a completely and wildly incorrect (actually has no bearing at all on actual meaning of hieroglyphs) and actually bears more semblance to Kircher's similar GAEL (another wildly inaccurate system). The Book of Abraham was the primary impetus to Joseph's GAEL - and we know that the GAEL is. Sum up: false revelatory statement by Joseph, fooled by dummied plates and then created wildly incorrect GAEL system. And everyone's OK with this as members of the church? At what point do facts actually start to matter? Seems to me if facts don't matter, then it becomes something other than a sound system of belief.
Thank you I have been looking into this for entertainment and stumbled on a lady that was really trashing the church but wasn’t saying much but you cleared it up thanks agin
This doesn't look good for Joseph Smith though. Saying something that ends up been proved wrong. There are ways to explain away everything if we have faith in something or in someone. But for me this kinderhook story exposes some dishonesty of Joseph's part more than it does of his simply having a secular crack at them. No wonder some people denounce Joseph Smith.
This is genius. You guys are awesome! Thank you for clearing up misconceptions and false conclusions. Do you have a video about the book of mormon? I watched a video: 10 problems with Mormonism and find the section on the book of mormon quite interesting. Any answers on those claims? Greetings from Germany
He absolutely did not clarify anything besides the fact that yes they're fake, and no it doesn't bother him that they are fake how stupid and blind can you be
book of mormon and bible says JESUS CHRIST is the eternal god and none formed before and after him. He is not our elder brother? BUT GOD.. Also bible and book of mormon say if not accept jesus christ, we are hewn down to the fires of hell whence there is no return. Book of mormon goes as far to say that even those who believe and accept christ but dont live all the commandments (613 jewish bondage laws restored) are hewn down to the fires of hell whence there is no return. So why do latter day saints say the book of mormon is true when not preach whats in it. The LDS church by revelation changed that to 3 degrees of glory no burning hell for anyone except the sons and daughters of pertition that deny the holyghost. I attend lds church but born again of the spirit, live by faith, grace and only then comes forth good works. If grace is not activated first and has to be earnt thenn that is not a free gift and is earning heaven or as lds Bradcox says learning heaven.. NONSENSE????? I had 6 nervous breakdowns in the church trying to live all those laws restored. Without grace activated first its an impossible gospel and never assurance of salvation. Grace beond resurrection for the good the bad and the ugly ha ha, is to surrender our filthy rags of rightousness and enter into christ rightousness thus the enabling power of the holyghost BECOMES our strength to live obedient. We can try do it on our own but as the old saying goes IF LIVE BY THE LAW THEN DIE BY THE LAW...See my utube videos.. Grace changes everything by darryl kirky (perth western australia)
In the works, thanks! The main challenge is that there's so much to talk about that it's difficult to cram it all into even a few short videos, but stay tuned!
@@seans5289 Yeah I may need to do some longer ones. The polygamy episode was longer, so there's a precedent. But I try to keep them short and bite-sized. Not super interested in starting my own separate channel at this point. I like SU.
The kinderhook plates didn't have any actual Egyptian on them; they were made-up characters. Why didn't Joseph Smith notice how many untranslatable characters there were? How was Joseph Smith so specific about the name of the person and who he was? Plus that other guy's alphabet wasn't accurate either. Between Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates and Joseph Smith's embarrassing Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, I can't see how anyone can't at least be suspicious of Joseph Smith's church, especially considering that the bible states that there would be false Christs with the power to deceive many in the last days. Whatever spirit comes from the book of Mormon, I don't think it's from God. I believe the church is gypsy-spirit Christianity, and is not of any sacred spirit.
We don't actually know what JS thought about the kinderhook plates, because he never wrote down his thoughts. We have a brief second hand account, that went no where. JS was very keen on publishing his translations, if a translation of the kinderhook ever existed he would have published it. At best we can say that JS recognized characters, which David explains.
@@brettmajeske3525 The lack of a published document and no direct words from JS are a factor and should be recognized. Having said that, the fact that JS tried to decipher the kinderhook plates in the first place and started a partial interpretation.... that means he did not have the gift of discernment. At least not at that time. P.S. I think I'm being quite kind to JS by putting it like that.
@@Irena_Posner Actually it means quite the opposite. It doesn't sound like you understand what the Gift of Discernment means, or the LDS concept of Revelation in general. The Doctrine and Covenants is quite clear, revelation and discernment comes after research and investigation. The process outlined is to study the question out in one's own mind first, and then go to the Lord. Just as, according to Emma, Joseph spent days and weeks studying the Golden Plates before attempting to translate them by the Gift and Power of God, one should expect Joseph to study the Kinderhook plates before asking the Lord to reveal what they meant. He spent a whole day with them, and then sent them back to their owner and never brought them up again. Even when Parley Pratt inquired about purchasing them, Smith expressed no interest in doing so. We have two contradictory statements from two people close to Smith, both written the same day. The only day Smith ever looked at the Kinderhook Plates. The Gift of Discernment only works after something has been studied, and after Smith had that opportunity he lost all interest in them, whereas before he studied them he expressed great interest in them. That is exactly what one would expect if Smith did have the Gift of Discernment.
@@brettmajeske3525 I'm not entirely convinced by this. If he thought them important enough to provide the initial "loins of Pharaoh" interpretation, then it means at that time at least he was fooled enough to consider them seriously - in the charitable interpretation (or to cynically exploit them for his own gain - the uncharitable interpretation). Still, if he though them important, why didn't he either go on to research them further and either declare them a hoax, 'translate' them fully or openly declare that he doesn't understand the language? Feels odd that he gives this off-the-cuff explanation of what they mean, if he didn't do thorough research yet. Again, the charitable interpretation would be that he did look into them deeper, realized that he can't read them but didn't want to admit that in public because he made his initial interpretation public. Which would be the human thing to do - people don't go to great lengths to admit they were wrong if they can avoid it. Still, it doesn't entirely take the "edge" off the deeper problem. Which is that if we assume he was just making a secular (and wrong) interpretation, then this opens the possibility that he was also making just a secular (and likely also wrong) interpretation of the book of Abraham. And that in turn can lead to questioning the validity of the book of Mormon. I'm not saying your explanation wasn't valid or that you didn't point out some key facts. But the issue remains problematic, at least for me.
@@Irena_Posner We do not know exactly what the off the cuff comment was, just that one person thought he was talking about Pharoh and another thought he was talking about Jardites. That is a pretty big difference. At the end of the day we do not have any text for a Kinderhook translation, unlike the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and Book of Mormon.
I think the fact that the Book of Abraham Papyrus, when translated for real, looks nothing like Joseph's "translation" is better evidence that he was a false prophet.
Well JS talked about multiple scrolls, one of which was over six feet long. We have found fragments of one scroll. It is better evidence, but is still not nearly as strong as critics like to think.
Most things are very rarely "proven". But based on all the evidence (and trying your best to avoid mental gymnastics), I'd say it's pretty evident that Joseph was a false prophet.
When Joseph Smith had them examined twice before he tried to translate them. It was deemed dead language or the symbols didn't exist. Wouldn't it had been best if he had tried to translate them before finding out that nobody else can?
Why? I think trying to find a translator makes much sense. Is that not what the Lord teaches? Study out the problem, then go to the Lord? Miracles are general reserved for things we cannot already do on our own.
He took them in as a show & tell And to make sure no one could dispute his claim/symbols. Upon research they were found to have been etched/falsified at the time of JoeSmith. Like everything else in LD$ lots of bs so as to gain more control, power & $$$ - I was in that cult 20 yrs before escaping !!
If the only languages that Joseph Smith translated.... were languages that were confirmed "dead" before his attempt. Obviously this is the route a con man would take. Doesn't mean he 100% is, but when a long list of evidence is compiled. It becomes more and more likely. The Bible is clear about Satan parading as an angel of light. Read the testimony of Joseph Smith in the first pages of book of Mormon and keep that in mind. Bible also warms about false prophets and of teaching a false Christ. Book of Mormon has both.
@Ancel316 you are 100% right it would have shown he really believes his revelation comes from God. Zero prophets I'm aware of in the Bible needed anything but Gods direction, from God. And if they got something wrong, they were considered a prophet no more.
I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhoook...I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. - JOSEPH SMITH, JR., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, VOL. 5, CHAPTER 19, P.372
@@brettmajeske3525 and BTW....you are being disingenuous with Clayton. JS Jr. quote was direct. Clayton made a separate comment affirming the authenticity of the hoax.
Why does the news paper the “Nauvoo Neighbor” June 24th 1843, have a published article about the plates, with copied pictures (fac-simile) showing what they looked like and state that the completed translation will be published in the “Times and Season”?
That would be a question for the Nauvoo Neighbor. There is no evidence that JS made a formal translation. There is only one documented event where he even looked at them. No attempted to purchase them was made, and they went back to the owner. It seems that people surrounding JS were far more enthusiastic than he was at their 'discovery'.
@@BGCflyer Actually I got two different conversation mixed up. I am currently involved in 20 different ones at the moment and thought this was the Book of Mormon one.
@@BGCflyer There is a slightly longer presentation on Latter-Day Saint Q&A: th-cam.com/video/p-a5k2Q_FiY/w-d-xo.html&pbjreload=101 that goes into more detail.
...If Joseph Smith was unable to translate the Egyptian papyri, nor the Kinderhook plates, how then can we be sure he accurately translated the “golden plates”? There is a copy of the characters that were brought to professor Anton and they have been shown to NOT be Egyptian. What the evidence shows is that Joseph Smith does not have the ability to translate. If an item like a rock or a piece of metal inspires you to say something of God, that’s called revelation, not translation. One can argue Joseph Smith revealed God’s will through him, but It’s literally impossible to say this is “translating”. You’ve titles this “Do the Kinderhook plates prove Joseph Smith was a false prophet?” It seems that your argument is that he was unable to translate in a secular way but that doesn’t matter. The Kinderhook plates alone show us that Jospeh Smith was fooled into thinking they were authentic and that he was unable to translate.
Well the word translation has a multiple definitions, some far more religious than technical. Any ways your assumptions imply you feel the Kinderhook plates were legitamite.
I think it's funny that he answers the question about this not bothering him. But I'm not sure that's really the question it should be asked if it bothers him. The question has to be is Joseph Smith a lier? Is he just making his stuff up? Like with the book of Abraham and Moses
For those who want a couple short paragraphs of straight factual information, here’s why the kinderhoom plates are one of the most easily dismissed LDS controversies: The Kinderhook plates are now known as a hoax, but in their time they were brought to J Smith as another ancient record for him to decipher. Smith never even attempted to translate them with his ‘gift of God’, or made any doctrines or revelations regarding the plates, at all. Ever. Smith recognized one of the letters on one of the plates from his studies of the Egyptian language, from the textbook mentioned in the video, so he attempted to make a translation from a purely secular practice. The coincidentally similar character’s match in the secular Egyptian language textbook denotes what is stated in the video, power and authority from pharaoh, rule over heaven and earth, etc etc. Smith indicated that it was written by a descendent of Ham (as all descendants of Pharaoh, King of Egypt; are descendants of ham by tradition) After this first attempt, Smith lost interest and never attempted another translation or any form of interaction with the plates again. In summary: Smith attempted to translate the plates by purely secular means, by sheer coincidence found a character similar to an actual Egyptian character and noted the according translation. Smith then never tried another translation, and in the whole course of his time as Prophet of the LDS church never attempted to use any sort of Priestly or otherwise Godly power to translate the plates.
There isn’t any true evidence for Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon found in the Bible. Joseph Smith inserted prophesies about himself in the JST in Genesis 50. But we know those verses aren’t legitimate because they never appear in any other manuscript, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Robert B Which Jospeh are we walking about here? Joseph Smith wrote the JST in the 1830s. The verses he added in the JST specifically refer to himself as a seer whom the Lord will raise up in the latter days. These verses simply aren’t found anywhere else.
I've noticed that God loves making a fool out of his prophets for us to have more faith. My testimony was greatly strengthened knowing that Joseph Smith incorrectly prophesied about multiple ancient texts. That's when I knew the Book of Mormon was correctly translated despite contradictions in archeological evidence. Sorry for the sarcasm. It was tough when I realized this guy was actually a fraud and I was lied to my whole life. Stay safe out there all
Sorry if this is a dumb question but how did those people that burried the fake plates know they would be dug up? And they just happened to find bones to burry them with? I'm confused and I can't seem to find this on the internet, can someone help me out here?
They led a treasure hunt and brought someone they knew was a Mormon. The Mormon member then suggested they take the plates to Joseph Smith for translation.
You guys should do an episode about The Book of Abraham and The Kirtland Egyptian Papers (maybe as a bonus, have Brian Hauglid and Robin Jensen as guests👌)
"Mr. Joshua Moore... last Sat. [April 29]...brought with him half a dozen thin pieces of brass, aparently very old, in the form of a bell about five or six inches long. They had on them scratches that looked like writing, and strange figures like symbolic characters. They were recently found, he said, in a mound a few miles below Quincy. when he showed them to Joseph he said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them." -Charlotte Haven (Nauvoo resident), 'Letter to My friends', May 2, 1842, in 'A girl's Letters from nauvoo,' Overland Monthly 16, Dec. 1890, p. 629-31 Joseph Smith didn't just take a symbol off of the plates and use a faulty interlinear to translate it in a secular way. He said that it contained genealogies as well. A problem is that he spoke with authority. He didn't say, "sure Ill try to see what I can figure out." He said the symbols did mean something and that the rest contained a genealogy. "If Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June, 1844, it is very possible he might have published a complete "translation" of these plates. Just a month before his death, it was reported that he was "busy in translating them. the new work which Jo. is about to issue as a translation of these plates will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the book of Mormon..." Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844 Apostle Parley P. Pratt wrote, "...six plates...filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah." This was written in a Letter to John Van cott, May 7 1843 found in the historical dept. of the LDS church. So it appears that Joseph Smith did in fact plan on translating the plates and he made authoritative descriptions about what was found on it. I think I agree with the argument that Joseph borrowed from that source to interpret the one symbol and if that was all he said then we could probably chock it up to Saints Unscripted conclusion: He was just trying to make a secular guess at the plates meaning. The problem is that he said more than that. He claimed it contained more and it looks like Saints Unscripted was wrong to conclude that he didn't prioritize them. Death being the reason that he never finished. The church under him believed the plates were authentic for 130 years. Why would they promote that if Joseph didn't at least imply that they were? You be the judge.
None of those were primary witness statements, just opinions of secondary ones. In legals terms, hearsay. I agree that it appears that many people believed that a translation would be forth coming. The problem is that not only did Joseph not make an attempt to provide such a translation, he didn't even try to keep or purchase the Kinderhook Plates. Something he attempted on the very same day he first saw the papyri. Joseph did not prioritize the Kinderhook Plates, people around him did. You are extrapolating from what Pratt, the Warsaw Journal, and Charlotte Haven, believed. However, Pratt and Clayton wrote mutually exclusive explanations, and Haven was recounting memories from being a young girl over 40 years after the fact.
@@brettmajeske3525 They aren't presenting their words as opinion, but history. The statements also, have verifiable facts within them such as the means by which the plates were obtained. Most of what we know about Joseph Smith is from eyewitness accounts recounting their memories. It is true that a memory given 40 years or more after the fact by a person who was but a little girl at the time could have gotten some details wrong but is it really fair to reject it out of hand? The title of this video is, "Do the Kinderhook Plates prove Joseph Smith was a false prophet?" My answer to that question would be "no." Partly for the reasons you bring up. It still makes him look really bad. If I wanted to prove him wrong then I'd go to the BoA instead or point out how he taught the sin of Lucifer that got that evil beast removed from heaven. The credibility of Joseph Smith should not be arrived at by looking at a single piece of information like the Kinderhook Plates. We should look at the entire collection of supporting or disconfirming evidence. I have a feeling that the average Mormon will never look into these things because they are fearful of what they might find.
@@blusheep2 Historians recognize the difference between primary and secondary witnesses. We have zero primary statements about what Joseph may or may not have believed about them. We know he only studied them for about one day, and made no attempts in the next year and a half to purchase them. Those kind of statements only makes clear that many people around Joseph were hopeful that he would provide additional scripture. As far as your fears, check out the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Many LDS are spending a lot of time and money trying to make the "entire collection of supporting or disconfirming evidence" better available. As for the Book of Abraham, since the eleven fragments are explicitly not the long scroll that has been the only claimed source for the Book of Abraham, they neither confirm nor deny anything.
@@brettmajeske3525 All information is valuable. Historians don't ignore secondary witnesses. They just understand that they aren't as strong as primary sources. The church has been forced into making these papers available because of the internet. Better late then never I guess. I'm familiar with them though. As for the BoA, it is irrelevant if the entire scroll isn't available. What is available isn't anything close to what Joseph wrote about it. It wasn't even in the same genre. Don't rationalize away the truth of this. Even the church does not do so. Not only do we have the fragments of papyri we have Josephs's facsimiles of it. Its the right fragments. Even the Museum recognized it as such as did the Mormon church since it was returned to them as rightfully theirs. I suspect that any evidence placed before you will be ignored. The common answer from the Mormon church is an acknowledgment of the contradiction between the papyri and Joe's interpretation and they rationalize this away as irrelevant since even the BoM wasn't really translated from the plates but transcribed through his "seer" stone which by the way was an occult practice that he used to deceive people into believing he could find treasure for them. Think about that. He was into the occult. Into magic and used a "magic" rock to look for treasure. It was this rock that he used to interpret the BoM. So he used a demonic stone to translate plates that conveniently have disappeared. Not only that but he taught the sin of Lucifer, and that is even more telling. Let me share the verse with you. Its Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." In the ancient world the phrases "above the heights of the clouds," "riding on the clouds of heaven," "coming on the clouds," meant "deity." It was a phrase used for the Gods. Its found in Daniel about Yahweh. Its found in Baal worship and if I remember right, its in Egyptian literature as well. So what does that verse say in short then... it says, "I will become a god. I will be like the Most High." It is for this sin that Lucifer was removed from heaven. This is the very thing Joseph taught and encouraged. The Mormon ordinances and temple ceremonies have nothing to do with worshiping god the father but so that a Mormon may one day reach the celestial kingdom and become a god. So an occultic demonic practice as a young man, an "interpretation" of a book using an occultic/demonic tool, verifiable deception about these papyri, the fact that nothing in the Book of Mormon has ever been verified to be true, and last but not least he taught the sin of Lucifer. There was a time that Joseph was desperate for money and when one of his men didn't sell his farm quick enough, received a revelation to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada. Men were dispatched to do this but utterly failed. When challenged on the revelation failing he "received" another revelation which said, "Some revelations are from God. Some revelations are from man. Some revelations are from the devil." I think we know where Joseph's revelations came from. Look, I'm hear because I love God and I love the Mormon people who I think are akin to me. They are good people that I believe have a true heart and similar family values, but we both can't be right. I'm here, not to fight, but to be a missionary to you. To invite you back to the true Christ who has the power to save and away from the verifiable deceptions of the devil who wants you to participate in his own deception by making you think you can become God. So when you pray and ask for that "burning in the bosom" that "internal witness" that you assign to the Holy Ghost, then I can only ask you to rethink the source of that witness and to ask yourself, "how would I know if Joseph Smith was a deciever?" Because if you can answer this question then, like me, you will quickly see that he is. God Bless. I hope you do the right thing.
@@blusheep2 "What is available isn't anything close to what Joseph wrote about it." The only fragment of which Joseph wrote anything other than "It is not needful to translate at this time" is fac #2. Are you putting all your chickens into fac#2 being "isn't anything close"? Back in the 60s the LDS Church published an article explicitly denying that the 11 fragments were the source of the Book of Abraham. Only critics have made the claim that they are. Just because the fragments are from the Book of Breathings and the Book of the Dead, does not tell us anything about the content of either the long or short scroll. Rendering any conclusion both unverifiable and unfalsifiable. As for "magic", a terminology all of the Smiths rejected, dowsing and scrying were common folk traditions among 19th century frontier Christians. It would have been weird if they did not have any connection. There was no understanding of scrying being "demonic" or "occult" among the general residents of the time and place. From the primary accounts, both member and nonmember, Joseph only used the Seer Stone to find lost objects. The only substantiated request to find treasure was Josiah Stowell. It was Joseph who convinced him that there was no treasure to be found. An afterwards Josiah hired Joseph to dig ditches. The New Testament is clear that all who fully accept the grace and atonement of Jesus Christ will be coheirs with Him in the eternities. LDS Theology does not teach anyone will ever replace God the Father, only that through the power of Christ we can become more like Him. There is no explicit doctrine on what that precisely means. I think you misunderstand LDS doctrine on the subject. The Temple Endowment is a tool to make covenants that help us learn to be more like Jesus Christ in our daily lives.
Keep studying. You're following the wrong scholarship. Joseph was a seer and revelator. This does not mean that he pulled information word for word from a source document. Next you should study the book of Enoch. Joseph absolutely nailed that one.
The book of Abraham and the Egyptian not being an exact translation…well what ever happened to god working in mysterious ways? There was a reason nobody knew how to translate Egyptian
The book of Abraham is just a bunch of made-up nonsense, claim the papyrus was written by Abraham with his own hand which was complete nonsense. The papyrus is 2,000 years too new to have anything to do with Abraham. Videos like this are simply work of an apologist to try to keep the believers believing.
@@GuyRegularThere have been writings outside of the bible circulating about abraham for thousands of years. Many of them being based on oral histories. He wasnt just a character in the hebrew bible, but an icon for the whole region of the world.
@@heatherluna5075 Joseph Smith is of the devil he is a liar and a Deceiver just as all the Freemason Masonic order Brotherhood of death and their Jesuit orders Lucifer has fallen and the Nations have fallen for the craft of Lucifer Masonic Lodge in every nation of Darkness along with their Freemason Masonic pastors and false rabbis who build for the kingdom of antichrist and not for the kingdom of heaven thieves and robbers who's kingdoms of Darkness shall come to nothing broken and consumed forevermore only the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ Messiah Son of God Son of Man will be forever the New Jerusalem the kingdom not made by hands Kingdom of the spirit kingdom of righteousness having one entrance only through our Lord Jesus Christ Messiah Son of God Son of Man therefore let no man deceive you
@@swordoflight6200 ya'll don't know how punctuation works, why should i believe this string of words you were brainwashed to believe about the mormon church?
The fact that Smith couldn’t identity them as bogus doesn’t look so good, either. Couple that with his catastrophic failure on the whole Book of Abraham thing and it’s obvious he didn’t know Egyptian from chicken scratch. Batteries must have been low on the magic rock.
The fact Joseph did even try to produce a translation suggests otherwise. He had them in his possession for about one day, and then sent them back. I am unsure what failure you are referring to. Since neither Joseph Smith or the LDS Church has ever identified the eleven fragments as the source of the Book of Abraham, the fact they are not the source cannot be construed as a failure. When the fragments were discovered in the 1960s, within months the LDS Church had published an article in the Church magazine that the fragments were not the source. Historical records have always indicated that that the "long scroll" which was sold to a Chicago museum that was destroyed in the Great Fire was the source. Critics claiming otherwise were only offering Straw Man fallacies.
It is interesting that he never went forward with translating the Kinderhook plates but did go forward with translating the Book of Abraham. If he was a con artist he would have been fine with concocting a translation for each. Instead we have contrasting examples that show that he didn't jump at the chance to make something up just for tomfoolery, as so many accuse him of.
@@CMZIEBARTH He was in the process of translating them. Even though the language was made up as a prank. So even if he lost interest for arguments sake. Why did he claim that was about "he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt" when it was a made up scribbles? Lets say if I make up some random characters to pull a prank on you. And you start reading it saying its authentic and its about so and so person. Wouldn't that prove you to be a liar and deceiver. Not even Islam which is also BS has this much clear evidence that its prophet was a total scam. And just like any total scam prophet he did what every total scam prophet does. He goes after sex, money and power.
@@brettmajeske3525 we have the scrolls to make the comparison. We have the one in which JS was making notes with. Its called facsimile 1. So because you will have to keep the scam going you have to claim thathe wasnt translating. He was given revelation while he was claiming to translate. Sorry i know it sucks but JS was a scam.
Wtf did you even say in this video? The plates were low priority for Joe so it’s all good? Would you hold anyone besides a Mormon leader to such low standards?
Doesn’t seem like he paid much attention to it, plus he was even right about the symbols. Just didn’t know who made them. Anybody else ever get scammed, even if you try to listen to the Holy Ghost? Yeah exactly. It just happens. And God lets it happen sometimes without warning us in advance.
All the kinderhook plates incident tells you is if JS was a conman. If he was a false prophet then it most definitely means your church doesn't have the "priesthood" and the ordinances you claim you need to be saved. So yeah, it does matter for your salvation.
4:16 - “Also, if you were a pharaoh, you were automatically a descendent of Ham…” Can you elaborate here? This seems to come out of left field. Probably a result of editing
They believe that after the great flood, the Earth was split into three areas for the three sons of Noah. Ham inherited Africa and therefore is the patriarch of all Egyptians including every Pharaoh.
redfightblue: My understanding (after growing up in the LDS church and discussing these topics for my entire adult life) is that the flood of Noah is mostly figurative. Are you LDS? The reason I ask is because you used the third person in referring to who holds the flood belief.
@@seans5289 The kid in the video believes Abraham Ch 1. Ham discovered Egypt after the flood and established the government there. That's the answer to the question I replied to. That's why all Pharaohs are descendants of Ham. Abraham Ch 1 makes it very clear. If you think it's figurative then you would be at odds with the churches doctrine. I'm inactive LDS.
redfightblue: Thanks. I think I’m inactive LDS as well. Do you believe in a global flood? I didn’t when I was a full-fledged member, and most LDS thinkers that I’ve read or interacted with would describe it as something of a large localized flood.
@@seans5289 I did believe in a global flood when I was active LDS. I do not now. It certainly could have been a local flood. Flood myths are prevalent in many ancient cultures.
@@bradyquinton6544 That video does not present any new information. People around Joseph expect something more, as David admitted. But even following his death, there is no evidence of Joseph even trying to buy the Kinderhook Plates. Even if he didn't have time to translated them, as that video claims, he certainly had both the time and money to attempt to purchase them. Joseph was not murdered until over a year after the Kinderhook Plates were presented to him. Since his translation efforts only took a 2-3 months each, that would still be plenty of time if it had been important to him.
Ahhhh, so Joe Smith with his 3rd grade education tried to translate the kinderhook plates on his own, was unable to identify them as fake, and saw similar symbols as what he had in his failed translation of the funeral rights papyrus (book of Abraham) because he was off duty as the prophet at the moment. Makes perfect sense.
Joseph Smith didnt persue translating this because he knew that they were bogus.. how do you ask? because the Book of Mormon was bogus as well, but it was Joseph that made up those so called plates the first time. so when someone brought him plates that he didnt make himself, he knew that this was someone trying to catch him and calling him on it. He may have been a con artist, but a smart one, possibly the best one the world has ever seen if you look at how many people follow his lies and dont even know what they are and how they came to be.
that goes to show that you really need the time to research this stuff, this is why a testimony is of most importance. Man, the more I dig into church history the more I realize how much of a test of faith it is to be part of the covenant people of the Lord. You really need to lean on Christ and the gift og the Holy Ghost and remember the covenansts that we have made.
Maybe this, or maybe that, or maybe Smith believed them, or maybe he didnt. Nice that you covered alll the maybes. The deal is, He was a Prophet, AHEM, so the force of discernment had left him .
Why? That doesn't make any sense at all. The Gift of Discernment does not mean he would know if something was true or false before having the opportunity to study it out in his own mine first and them asking the Lord, the pattern described in the D&C.
@@brettmajeske3525 Why bother defending this or that method of receiving revelation? If it fails it fails and you're just meant to accept it... Even following the pattern described in D&C isn't guaranteed to work. That's its whole appeal. You can count the hits and ignore the misses. It's academic dishonesty as a means of self-delusion.
I've noticed that God loves making a fool out of his prophets for us to have more faith. My testimony was greatly strengthened knowing that Joseph Smith incorrectly prophesied about multiple ancient texts. That's when I knew the Book of Mormon was correctly translated despite contradictions in archeological evidence. Sorry for the sarcasm. It was tough when I realized this guy was actually a fraud and I was lied to my whole life. Stay safe out there all
Leads you to believe? Leads you to believe? 🤔 What's the purpose of this video if even yourself do not have a certainty of your premise? Believe IS NOT fact. You failed. 🙄
There are no provable "facts" in this instance, only opinions. Everyone has their own opinions, and David did a good job explaining his own. If you want facts then you need to invent a time machine.
I appreciate your video here! I spent years doing similar mental gymnastics like this - focusing on only part of the story to explain away each problem with the Church. The problem is that the stack of problems is really big when you take a step back. And when you see that each has a common theme and each requires painful mental gymnastics to explain away - it starts to become clear that the whole story is just made up....created and ad libbed as it went on - pulling from surroundings around Joseph Smith and evolving with his opinions - the quantity of revisions, twists and turns - all lining up with personal events for Joseph...it just all starts to add up to one four letter word. Hoax.
To me, Joseph often acts like he believes in his own calling. In this case, he seems to believe that his Grammar and Alphabet actually was a good source to translate with. So he attempted to do so for the kinderhook plates. If he knew his Book of Abraham translation was a hoax, he would have known that his Grammar was also a hoax. But why didn't he continue and create an entire translation, as he was so adept at doing with the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc? Apparently, because he was unable to do so (because the plates were fake).
I would say that any religion requires mental gymnastics, same with any faith. That is why they aren't meant to be "proven" secularly first. I hope you still believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world!
@@lexingtonconcord8751 I think I trust me to speak for me better than you to speak for me. 😉 But you can believe whatever you want. It's always possible I'm wrong.
@@joeshawcroft7121I think I agree generally. The one thing I would tweak is mental gymnastics and faith are not the same thing. Definition of faith: “faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” To me mental gymnastics is maintaining belief in something not seen in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Each person for themselves has to decide the balance of evidence either way. For me...after 20 years being a member, converting at 19 and having my Catholic family cut me off, going on a mission, marrying in the temple and countless incredible experiences in the Church - it has been quite heartbreaking to finally sit down and weigh the evidence. The massive quantity of gigantic problems with every aspect of the Church and it's origin story - and worse that Church leaders have been aware of and actively hid these things for over 100 years - and today have extremely flimsy explanations for some of the problems and zero explanation for the rest. For me personally... believing in the Church anymore is mental gymnastics...not faith. Now - yes I still have faith in Jesus Christ. Because the balance between faith and mental gymnastics is different...the evidence balance is different than it is for Joseph Smith and the Church.
Joseph Smith described the papyrus as Abraham's own "signature" written by "his own hand". It was very much taught by Joseph Smith that the book of Abraham was a literal translation. The intro to the book of Abraham still states that it was a translation from papyrus. This calls into question his divine seership in general as well as his gift of prophecy as well as his gift of discernment. I care more about the truth than I fear real world quotes and information. It's hard to see a liar if you view everything through a very sanitized gospel lens given by the liar himself.
No you just want him to be! Have you ever read the book of Mormon? And if so, why are you afraid of it? What does it say, that's so HORRIBLE? Does the church you currently attend, preach against the gospel?
stardustgirl the Book of Jacob is a Shakespearean soliloquy. So yes I’m afraid of the book that uses “adieu” in 400 B.C. I’m also afraid of the book that says that the true Bible prophesied Joseph Smith. When JS translated the Bible and added his own name to it, I became very afraid of the BoM. I go to church every Sunday and read my come follow me lessons throughout the week but I KNOW JS was NOT a prophet.
It means he saw one character on the plates that he happened to know a translation for, then quit when he realized the plates were BS. But of course, you didn't pay attention to the videoor filtered it through your biases, didn't you?
Thanks again! This is the type of tone and reasoning on Church history topics that I have been looking for.
Anything that doesn't fit someone's narrative will cause some cognitive dissonance. Believers have a narrative. There is also a narrative of the critics -- which is that the evidence is simple, and the case is closed. I see people experiencing dissonance by arguments that threaten that narrative as well.
It's called confirmation bias.
My opinion is if Joseph smith had invented the golden plates, he would have seen that the kinderhook plates were a ruse. If he knew the golden plates were fake, its obvious that the kinderhook was just a test to see if he was a prophet or not. Of course he cpuldnhave just seen it as an opportunity to seem prophetic to his colleagues, but theres an obvious risk if he knows theyre fake.he obviously believed they were real, so logically it makes sense that he at least believed that the golden plates were genuine
It’s good to know the ways in which active LDS members justify this. I was wondering, since as a member no one ever even acknowledged this occurrence. It wasn’t until I already left the church that I even heard of the plates. However, you said at 3:28 the GAEL was a FAILED attempt at a secular translation of the papyrus associated with the Book of Abraham. So Smith incorrectly translated one papyrus and then used that to translate the plates, thus being wrong twice in Egyptian hieroglyphics. You brushed right over that one. Book of Abraham papyrus is also wrongly translated by Joseph yet it was published, so…. “Not a priority” really doesn’t hold weight here.
I think you are missing the point. All evidence suggests that the GAEL was created long after the translation of the Book of Abraham. The handwriting found on the GAEL seems to be that of various clerks and scribes, all of whom were far more educated and literate than Joseph Smith. Neither Smith, nor the Church has ever claimed that the Book of Abraham, or anything else produced by Smith, was the result of a secular interpretation. The admittedly little evidence that does exist, suggests that the GAEL was created by Smith's scribes, based on false linguistic assumptions, and was at best an intellectual attempt to replicate the Gift and Power of God, and failed.
We do not know what specific hierogpyphics Joseph was using, or even if any were present, which seems unlikely given the presidents.
Since the Kinderhook plates were never translated, I am not sure how they can be evidence of a failure. Back in the 50s and 60s there were many members who were hopeful they would turn out to be legitimate, including some prominent leaders. There was never any official revelation or even assertion on the topic, and after modern chemical and archeological tests proved them fakes, interest almost completely disappeared, which would explain why you likely did not hear of them while a member.
Right brushed right over it.
One thing at a time, one thing at a time...
Theres nothing to justify because nobody knows exactly what joseph did with them.
Most of the papyrus that JS translated the book of Abraham from were lost in the Great Chicago fire. The small portion that was preserved were translated by Egyptologists and found to be Egyptian death rituals, the book of breathing. You can't say JS papyrus translation of the book of Abraham was false when we don't have most of the papyrus it was translated from.
The fact that the church (and the prophets/seers/revelators) believed in the authenticity of the plates until 1980 tells me there's a lack of propheting/seeing/revelating going on...
Actually one some leaders believed in the Kinderhook plates, others rejected them, and most claimed to be neutral. The LDS Church never issued an official statement as to their authenticity.
@@brettmajeske3525read more, they were definitely defending that the kinderhook plates were real in multiple official church publications.
The LDS news did tho. An official attachment from LDS @@brettmajeske3525
Why question is how many times is Joseph smith your prophet allowed to make mistakes before he is a false prophet. Just put a number to it let’s be generous and give him 20 times.
Why not seventy times seven?
Interesting. I love hearing explanations on this. Does not effect my testimony at all. Thank you so much for sharing this information David, well done.
tpbarron What exactly would affect your testimony then? I’m genuinely curious.
If it doesn't affect your belief, then you need to assess the way you look at evidence based arguments. You can't honestly say that it's likely that a man sent by God has been tricked into translating a load of garbage. Furthermore, doesn't the book Abraham affect your belief . It should do !!!
@@misterpete8001 we Mormons love and adore our false prophets. The Mormon culture is beautiful and sweet.😁 we don’t care about no gotdamn evidence we know by the spirit that Joseph was a Prophet of God. We were taught this, pray about it and we know is of God. We know the Book of Mormon is true because it’s what I’ve been hearing all my life as a Mormon.😊
@@paulolosi1452 ,😄😄😄😄False prophet, polygamist and deceiver. Listen to the happiness letter and Mormon podcast.
This was awesome. Thanks for making a video on this. I have been waiting for years for an answer to this.
And you think this was an answer?
Probably the best video I’ve seen yet explaining the kinderhook plates 👌🏼
Both "bowl" characters were proven to be completely false, so what was the point of this video?
The Kinderhook Plates absolutely proves that Joseph Smith was willing to compromise truth in the name of God. Both bowl shapes, which are not the same, have been proven to be completely false. The fact that they were the only characters to be remotely similar and yet were said to be the same language screams deception by Smith, not just by the hoaxers. Saying that the Book of the Dead was actually the Book of Abraham "by Abraham's own hand," doesn't help his case.
So, yes, false prophet.
Say I seem to be having some trouble finding “revealed by god” when Joseph smith was speaking concerning the kinderhook plates, do you think you can show me where it says anything remotely of that nature?
I've never heard of this before but it really goes to show just how far people went to attempt to defraud Joseph Smith.
Corey, I would not be surprised if it were a setup.
Over the next month or so we're going to be looking at some of the conspiracy theories people have come up with about the origin of The Book of Mormon ... it gets pretty whacky. It's going to be fun!
David Snell one conspiracy theory I’ve heard is that he found a golden book and it was the ancient version of the Book of Mormon. And he used a rock in a hat to translate it into English!
@@socaranectien1933 You should research your own history. Those are just facts. You gullible yanks!
@Corey Bemendo the problem is that even the Mormon church had to cover this up.
You diminish the credibility of Joseph's words about the kinderhook plates because it was written by Clayton. Why not apply the same logic to the different versions of the first vision? Is it because the one primary source written by JS himself is a contrary narrative to the accepted version in the PoGP, not written by JS directly?
It is not just that they are Clayton's words and not Smith's, but the priority Smith's actions implied. Not to mention the disagreement about attributed claim. Clayton wrote that the Kinderhook Plates were written by a descendant of Pharaoh, while Parley P Pratt and many others claimed they were a Jaredite record.
After that examining for part of one day, JS who had to all appearances been very excited about the prospect, just ignored them. The is no other record of JS even mentioning them again, letting alone attempting to provide a translation. While people surrounding Smith were obviously excited, and such excitement continued for decades afterwards, Smith himself did and said nothing.
I think silence in this case speaks volumes.
Wow. Your faith in the unbelievable is unbelievably unbelievable. You may be ready for the third anointing.
The book of abraham and kinderhook plates are enough proof of false prophethood
That 'Egyptian Alphabet' was anything but. It may not bother you, but couldn't another prophet at sometime in the following 140 years receive revelation that it was a hoax, rather than relying on the conclusion of the scientific tests of man?
Short answer is yes. But the question isn't "could" something happen. Lots of people "could" have done lots of things they didn't. The Kinderhook plates were never really as big a deal as critics like to assume. I do not feel qualified to answer why God did or did not do something, but I don't feel it was important enough.
And this is a religion that teaches that everyone has the ability to discern the legitimacy of a document through nothing but feelings? Yikes.
You have to pray to know it's true to know it's true...and if it's not true then that thought will be erased from memory (Circular Mormon Reasoning).
Not exactly the claim, although I understand why you misrepresent it that way.
@@brettmajeske3525 I guess I'll have to take your word for it?
@Joseph the Wanderer Strip away the bluster of your comment, and you're left with nothing. You have no basis for claiming that revelation can be accurate with respect to ANYTHING, regardless of how convenient it may be to your position. If praying-to-know where a reliable epistemic methodology it would be testable and verifiable. Why don't you pray to know something that you don't already know, but that you could easily learn after the fact? Generate a random number and pray to know what it is before checking. (and don't excuse the idea out-of-hand, you need to do it in the full belief that it will work just like you do when praying about the BOM. If you do it right, it'll feel just like any other spiritual witness you rely on and it will still FAIL spectacularly). Prayer and revelation do not work any better than chance. You are NOT justified in using it to discern truth until such time as it is shown to be a valid PATH to truth. You're building your epistemological house on axiomatic sand with that crap!
Smith's inability to recognize a false record when he encourages others to employ what amounts to self-deception to support his own false writings is deeply problematic to Mormonism. Even trying to float the argument that Smith may have known that they were bogus doesn't get you away from the fact that the documents were eventually held up as genuine by 'inspired' Mormon leaders, but those plates were forgeries. You're free to use 'discernment' to know if the BOM is legit, I'm just warning you that you're likely to meet with the same disappointing results.
@Joseph the Wanderer Back with the bluster... Church leaders were happy to hold the Kinderhook plates up as evidence of ancient American historical writings that bolstered the narrative in the book of Mormon for ages so I don't know what you're looking for beyond evidence of something I never claimed... They never revealed the fraud themselves, surely you can see that as suspicious...
To have justified belief you need to have SOME justification. If revelation could be shown to work reliably, you'd have that justification, but since it can't, you can NOT gain a justified belief via revelation. Don't you find it awfully convenient that revelation can only tell you things you can't verify by any other means? Even if it could, you're not justified in believing it can.
This is one of the better counter arguments that I've heard. But why would the Lord's mouthpiece make an attempt at a secular translation. Why didn't God just tell him the plates were a hoax?
We don't know- God might have told him that they were a hoax. He didn't ever pursue or attempt to purchase them, as he had with other ancient records. He never claimed to be receiving revelation on them. Maybe he tried to receive revelation on them and failed.
Well the D&C describes the process by which Revelation is Received. It is not simply or easy, and the command is to study the matter out in one's own mind first.
as a mormon yes these are my thoughts too, quite confusing
Maybe to make a fool out of a false prophet 🤷
So let me get this straight. Joseph, the prophet of the restoration, states that these plates were about "a descendent of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh etc. etc,. But then we learn that he was more than just wrong, he had been duped with these fake copper plates. In summary, he makes a revelatory statement as the prophet, and is just completely wrong.
Then, he works on translating the plates and messes around with the GAEL he created - which is a completely and wildly incorrect (actually has no bearing at all on actual meaning of hieroglyphs) and actually bears more semblance to Kircher's similar GAEL (another wildly inaccurate system).
The Book of Abraham was the primary impetus to Joseph's GAEL - and we know that the GAEL is.
Sum up: false revelatory statement by Joseph, fooled by dummied plates and then created wildly incorrect GAEL system. And everyone's OK with this as members of the church? At what point do facts actually start to matter? Seems to me if facts don't matter, then it becomes something other than a sound system of belief.
Best channel, keep doing this amazing job, guys! Greetings from Brazil!
Thank you I have been looking into this for entertainment and stumbled on a lady that was really trashing the church but wasn’t saying much but you cleared it up thanks agin
This doesn't look good for Joseph Smith though.
Saying something that ends up been proved wrong.
There are ways to explain away everything if we have faith in something or in someone.
But for me this kinderhook story exposes some dishonesty of Joseph's part more than it does of his simply having a secular crack at them.
No wonder some people denounce Joseph Smith.
You are acting like we have JS's opinion on Kinderhook. What was JS's written opinion, I'm curious?
This is genius. You guys are awesome! Thank you for clearing up misconceptions and false conclusions. Do you have a video about the book of mormon? I watched a video: 10 problems with Mormonism and find the section on the book of mormon quite interesting. Any answers on those claims?
Greetings from Germany
Is there anything in specific that concerns you? I have not seen the video you mention.
He absolutely did not clarify anything besides the fact that yes they're fake, and no it doesn't bother him that they are fake how stupid and blind can you be
book of mormon and bible says JESUS CHRIST is the eternal god and none formed before and after him. He is not our elder brother? BUT GOD.. Also bible and book of mormon say if not accept jesus christ, we are hewn down to the fires of hell whence there is no return. Book of mormon goes as far to say that even those who believe and accept christ but dont live all the commandments (613 jewish bondage laws restored) are hewn down to the fires of hell whence there is no return. So why do latter day saints say the book of mormon is true when not preach whats in it. The LDS church by revelation changed that to 3 degrees of glory no burning hell for anyone except the sons and daughters of pertition that deny the holyghost. I attend lds church but born again of the spirit, live by faith, grace and only then comes forth good works. If grace is not activated first and has to be earnt thenn that is not a free gift and is earning heaven or as lds Bradcox says learning heaven.. NONSENSE????? I had 6 nervous breakdowns in the church trying to live all those laws restored. Without grace activated first its an impossible gospel and never assurance of salvation. Grace beond resurrection for the good the bad and the ugly ha ha, is to surrender our filthy rags of rightousness and enter into christ rightousness thus the enabling power of the holyghost BECOMES our strength to live obedient. We can try do it on our own but as the old saying goes IF LIVE BY THE LAW THEN DIE BY THE LAW...See my utube videos.. Grace changes everything by darryl kirky (perth western australia)
Can you guys do a video on the Book of Abraham?
In the works, thanks! The main challenge is that there's so much to talk about that it's difficult to cram it all into even a few short videos, but stay tuned!
@@davidsnell2605 Awesome!
David Snell: Hey, man. Do longer videos. Do more videos. Maybe a separate channel like Kwaku’s? Just spit-balling here.
@@seans5289 Yeah I may need to do some longer ones. The polygamy episode was longer, so there's a precedent. But I try to keep them short and bite-sized. Not super interested in starting my own separate channel at this point. I like SU.
David Snell: I like it too. I just like these videos best, and I’m selfish. Please consider my needs
The kinderhook plates didn't have any actual Egyptian on them; they were made-up characters. Why didn't Joseph Smith notice how many untranslatable characters there were? How was Joseph Smith so specific about the name of the person and who he was? Plus that other guy's alphabet wasn't accurate either. Between Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates and Joseph Smith's embarrassing Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, I can't see how anyone can't at least be suspicious of Joseph Smith's church, especially considering that the bible states that there would be false Christs with the power to deceive many in the last days. Whatever spirit comes from the book of Mormon, I don't think it's from God. I believe the church is gypsy-spirit Christianity, and is not of any sacred spirit.
We don't actually know what JS thought about the kinderhook plates, because he never wrote down his thoughts. We have a brief second hand account, that went no where. JS was very keen on publishing his translations, if a translation of the kinderhook ever existed he would have published it. At best we can say that JS recognized characters, which David explains.
@@brettmajeske3525 The lack of a published document and no direct words from JS are a factor and should be recognized.
Having said that, the fact that JS tried to decipher the kinderhook plates in the first place and started a partial interpretation.... that means he did not have the gift of discernment. At least not at that time.
P.S.
I think I'm being quite kind to JS by putting it like that.
@@Irena_Posner Actually it means quite the opposite. It doesn't sound like you understand what the Gift of Discernment means, or the LDS concept of Revelation in general. The Doctrine and Covenants is quite clear, revelation and discernment comes after research and investigation. The process outlined is to study the question out in one's own mind first, and then go to the Lord. Just as, according to Emma, Joseph spent days and weeks studying the Golden Plates before attempting to translate them by the Gift and Power of God, one should expect Joseph to study the Kinderhook plates before asking the Lord to reveal what they meant. He spent a whole day with them, and then sent them back to their owner and never brought them up again.
Even when Parley Pratt inquired about purchasing them, Smith expressed no interest in doing so. We have two contradictory statements from two people close to Smith, both written the same day. The only day Smith ever looked at the Kinderhook Plates.
The Gift of Discernment only works after something has been studied, and after Smith had that opportunity he lost all interest in them, whereas before he studied them he expressed great interest in them. That is exactly what one would expect if Smith did have the Gift of Discernment.
@@brettmajeske3525 I'm not entirely convinced by this. If he thought them important enough to provide the initial "loins of Pharaoh" interpretation, then it means at that time at least he was fooled enough to consider them seriously - in the charitable interpretation (or to cynically exploit them for his own gain - the uncharitable interpretation).
Still, if he though them important, why didn't he either go on to research them further and either declare them a hoax, 'translate' them fully or openly declare that he doesn't understand the language?
Feels odd that he gives this off-the-cuff explanation of what they mean, if he didn't do thorough research yet.
Again, the charitable interpretation would be that he did look into them deeper, realized that he can't read them but didn't want to admit that in public because he made his initial interpretation public.
Which would be the human thing to do - people don't go to great lengths to admit they were wrong if they can avoid it.
Still, it doesn't entirely take the "edge" off the deeper problem. Which is that if we assume he was just making a secular (and wrong) interpretation, then this opens the possibility that he was also making just a secular (and likely also wrong) interpretation of the book of Abraham. And that in turn can lead to questioning the validity of the book of Mormon.
I'm not saying your explanation wasn't valid or that you didn't point out some key facts. But the issue remains problematic, at least for me.
@@Irena_Posner We do not know exactly what the off the cuff comment was, just that one person thought he was talking about Pharoh and another thought he was talking about Jardites. That is a pretty big difference. At the end of the day we do not have any text for a Kinderhook translation, unlike the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and Book of Mormon.
I think the fact that the Book of Abraham Papyrus, when translated for real, looks nothing like Joseph's "translation" is better evidence that he was a false prophet.
Well JS talked about multiple scrolls, one of which was over six feet long. We have found fragments of one scroll. It is better evidence, but is still not nearly as strong as critics like to think.
Most things are very rarely "proven". But based on all the evidence (and trying your best to avoid mental gymnastics), I'd say it's pretty evident that Joseph was a false prophet.
Blah blah blah. Based on your highly SUBJECTIVE evidence lol
When Joseph Smith had them examined twice before he tried to translate them. It was deemed dead language or the symbols didn't exist.
Wouldn't it had been best if he had tried to translate them before finding out that nobody else can?
Why? I think trying to find a translator makes much sense. Is that not what the Lord teaches? Study out the problem, then go to the Lord? Miracles are general reserved for things we cannot already do on our own.
He took them in as a show & tell And to make sure no one could dispute his claim/symbols. Upon research they were found to have been etched/falsified at the time of JoeSmith. Like everything else in LD$ lots of bs so as to gain more control, power & $$$ - I was in that cult 20 yrs before escaping !!
If the only languages that Joseph Smith translated.... were languages that were confirmed "dead" before his attempt. Obviously this is the route a con man would take. Doesn't mean he 100% is, but when a long list of evidence is compiled. It becomes more and more likely.
The Bible is clear about Satan parading as an angel of light. Read the testimony of Joseph Smith in the first pages of book of Mormon and keep that in mind. Bible also warms about false prophets and of teaching a false Christ. Book of Mormon has both.
@Ancel316 you are 100% right it would have shown he really believes his revelation comes from God. Zero prophets I'm aware of in the Bible needed anything but Gods direction, from God. And if they got something wrong, they were considered a prophet no more.
I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhoook...I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.
- JOSEPH SMITH, JR., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, VOL. 5, CHAPTER 19, P.372
Well, Clayton writing in the voice of JS to be precise.
@@brettmajeske3525 Jeez. More Dunning-Kruger from the faithful
@@Doc-Pleroma-naut What is wrong with being academically accurate?
@@brettmajeske3525 nothing really. It’s just a dodge. Just more Mormon-splaning away reality.
@@brettmajeske3525 and BTW....you are being disingenuous with Clayton. JS Jr. quote was direct. Clayton made a separate comment affirming the authenticity of the hoax.
Does not bother you. Absence of reason!!! He was a charlatan
Charlatán, spanish word
Why does the news paper the “Nauvoo Neighbor” June 24th 1843, have a published article about the plates, with copied pictures (fac-simile) showing what they looked like and state that the completed translation will be published in the “Times and Season”?
That would be a question for the Nauvoo Neighbor. There is no evidence that JS made a formal translation. There is only one documented event where he even looked at them. No attempted to purchase them was made, and they went back to the owner. It seems that people surrounding JS were far more enthusiastic than he was at their 'discovery'.
@@brettmajeske3525 ...so who was making the translation then?
....What? Ok I guess you’re joking, right? You obviously know the Kinderhook plates were a fabrication.
@@BGCflyer Actually I got two different conversation mixed up. I am currently involved in 20 different ones at the moment and thought this was the Book of Mormon one.
@@BGCflyer There is a slightly longer presentation on Latter-Day Saint Q&A:
th-cam.com/video/p-a5k2Q_FiY/w-d-xo.html&pbjreload=101
that goes into more detail.
...If Joseph Smith was unable to translate the Egyptian papyri, nor the Kinderhook plates, how then can we be sure he accurately translated the “golden plates”? There is a copy of the characters that were brought to professor Anton and they have been shown to NOT be Egyptian. What the evidence shows is that Joseph Smith does not have the ability to translate. If an item like a rock or a piece of metal inspires you to say something of God, that’s called revelation, not translation. One can argue Joseph Smith revealed God’s will through him, but It’s literally impossible to say this is “translating”. You’ve titles this “Do the Kinderhook plates prove Joseph Smith was a false prophet?” It seems that your argument is that he was unable to translate in a secular way but that doesn’t matter. The Kinderhook plates alone show us that Jospeh Smith was fooled into thinking they were authentic and that he was unable to translate.
Well the word translation has a multiple definitions, some far more religious than technical.
Any ways your assumptions imply you feel the Kinderhook plates were legitamite.
Great coverage. Loved the office scene.
I think it's funny that he answers the question about this not bothering him. But I'm not sure that's really the question it should be asked if it bothers him. The question has to be is Joseph Smith a lier? Is he just making his stuff up? Like with the book of Abraham and Moses
I’m so tired of this. Thank God the Bible is simple
For those who want a couple short paragraphs of straight factual information, here’s why the kinderhoom plates are one of the most easily dismissed LDS controversies:
The Kinderhook plates are now known as a hoax, but in their time they were brought to J Smith as another ancient record for him to decipher.
Smith never even attempted to translate them with his ‘gift of God’, or made any doctrines or revelations regarding the plates, at all. Ever.
Smith recognized one of the letters on one of the plates from his studies of the Egyptian language, from the textbook mentioned in the video, so he attempted to make a translation from a purely secular practice.
The coincidentally similar character’s match in the secular Egyptian language textbook denotes what is stated in the video, power and authority from pharaoh, rule over heaven and earth, etc etc.
Smith indicated that it was written by a descendent of Ham (as all descendants of Pharaoh, King of Egypt; are descendants of ham by tradition)
After this first attempt, Smith lost interest and never attempted another translation or any form of interaction with the plates again.
In summary: Smith attempted to translate the plates by purely secular means, by sheer coincidence found a character similar to an actual Egyptian character and noted the according translation. Smith then never tried another translation, and in the whole course of his time as Prophet of the LDS church never attempted to use any sort of Priestly or otherwise Godly power to translate the plates.
Fav video in the series so far 👏👏
also William Clayton is my couple-times great uncle
It being a hoax doesnt bother you?
It tells you JS was a good story teller OR he was delusional, thinking made up symbols actually corresponded to what Clayton wrote.
Thank you for this video! Could you do a video of where in the Bible it shows evidence of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?
There isn’t any true evidence for Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon found in the Bible. Joseph Smith inserted prophesies about himself in the JST in Genesis 50. But we know those verses aren’t legitimate because they never appear in any other manuscript, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Stan,
The dead Sea scrolls are still well over 1,000 years after that Joseph. Assuming he ever wrote it down to begin with.
Robert B Which Jospeh are we walking about here? Joseph Smith wrote the JST in the 1830s. The verses he added in the JST specifically refer to himself as a seer whom the Lord will raise up in the latter days. These verses simply aren’t found anywhere else.
Talking about the Genesis Joseph
Robert B Moses wrote the book of Genesis, not Joseph. I’m confused about the logic of your argument.
I WANT MORE ✨
I've noticed that God loves making a fool out of his prophets for us to have more faith.
My testimony was greatly strengthened knowing that Joseph Smith incorrectly prophesied about multiple ancient texts. That's when I knew the Book of Mormon was correctly translated despite contradictions in archeological evidence.
Sorry for the sarcasm. It was tough when I realized this guy was actually a fraud and I was lied to my whole life. Stay safe out there all
that bowl symbol in heiroglyphs does not corespond with the "translation" eigther. much like the book of the dead translation .
D,,
Sorry if this is a dumb question but how did those people that burried the fake plates know they would be dug up?
And they just happened to find bones to burry them with? I'm confused and I can't seem to find this on the internet, can someone help me out here?
They led a treasure hunt and brought someone they knew was a Mormon. The Mormon member then suggested they take the plates to Joseph Smith for translation.
You guys should do an episode about The Book of Abraham and The Kirtland Egyptian Papers (maybe as a bonus, have Brian Hauglid and Robin Jensen as guests👌)
They won't.
@@julianjessevideo Why not?
@@ethanf.237 Because the Book of Abraham has been proven false - much like the Kinderhook plates.
@@julianjessevideo Well...... They made a video about the Kinderhook plates did they not? Why not The Book of Abraham??
@@julianjessevideoB.O.M. fake as a frog with a mustache.
"Mr. Joshua Moore... last Sat. [April 29]...brought with him half a dozen thin pieces of brass, aparently very old, in the form of a bell about five or six inches long. They had on them scratches that looked like writing, and strange figures like symbolic characters. They were recently found, he said, in a mound a few miles below Quincy. when he showed them to Joseph he said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them."
-Charlotte Haven (Nauvoo resident), 'Letter to My friends', May 2, 1842, in 'A girl's Letters from nauvoo,' Overland Monthly 16, Dec. 1890, p. 629-31
Joseph Smith didn't just take a symbol off of the plates and use a faulty interlinear to translate it in a secular way. He said that it contained genealogies as well. A problem is that he spoke with authority. He didn't say, "sure Ill try to see what I can figure out." He said the symbols did mean something and that the rest contained a genealogy.
"If Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June, 1844, it is very possible he might have published a complete "translation" of these plates. Just a month before his death, it was reported that he was "busy in translating them. the new work which Jo. is about to issue as a translation of these plates will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the book of Mormon..." Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844
Apostle Parley P. Pratt wrote, "...six plates...filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah." This was written in a Letter to John Van cott, May 7 1843 found in the historical dept. of the LDS church.
So it appears that Joseph Smith did in fact plan on translating the plates and he made authoritative descriptions about what was found on it. I think I agree with the argument that Joseph borrowed from that source to interpret the one symbol and if that was all he said then we could probably chock it up to Saints Unscripted conclusion: He was just trying to make a secular guess at the plates meaning. The problem is that he said more than that. He claimed it contained more and it looks like Saints Unscripted was wrong to conclude that he didn't prioritize them. Death being the reason that he never finished. The church under him believed the plates were authentic for 130 years. Why would they promote that if Joseph didn't at least imply that they were?
You be the judge.
None of those were primary witness statements, just opinions of secondary ones. In legals terms, hearsay. I agree that it appears that many people believed that a translation would be forth coming. The problem is that not only did Joseph not make an attempt to provide such a translation, he didn't even try to keep or purchase the Kinderhook Plates. Something he attempted on the very same day he first saw the papyri. Joseph did not prioritize the Kinderhook Plates, people around him did.
You are extrapolating from what Pratt, the Warsaw Journal, and Charlotte Haven, believed. However, Pratt and Clayton wrote mutually exclusive explanations, and Haven was recounting memories from being a young girl over 40 years after the fact.
@@brettmajeske3525 They aren't presenting their words as opinion, but history. The statements also, have verifiable facts within them such as the means by which the plates were obtained.
Most of what we know about Joseph Smith is from eyewitness accounts recounting their memories. It is true that a memory given 40 years or more after the fact by a person who was but a little girl at the time could have gotten some details wrong but is it really fair to reject it out of hand?
The title of this video is, "Do the Kinderhook Plates prove Joseph Smith was a false prophet?" My answer to that question would be "no." Partly for the reasons you bring up.
It still makes him look really bad. If I wanted to prove him wrong then I'd go to the BoA instead or point out how he taught the sin of Lucifer that got that evil beast removed from heaven.
The credibility of Joseph Smith should not be arrived at by looking at a single piece of information like the Kinderhook Plates. We should look at the entire collection of supporting or disconfirming evidence. I have a feeling that the average Mormon will never look into these things because they are fearful of what they might find.
@@blusheep2 Historians recognize the difference between primary and secondary witnesses. We have zero primary statements about what Joseph may or may not have believed about them. We know he only studied them for about one day, and made no attempts in the next year and a half to purchase them. Those kind of statements only makes clear that many people around Joseph were hopeful that he would provide additional scripture.
As far as your fears, check out the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Many LDS are spending a lot of time and money trying to make the "entire collection of supporting or disconfirming evidence" better available.
As for the Book of Abraham, since the eleven fragments are explicitly not the long scroll that has been the only claimed source for the Book of Abraham, they neither confirm nor deny anything.
@@brettmajeske3525 All information is valuable. Historians don't ignore secondary witnesses. They just understand that they aren't as strong as primary sources.
The church has been forced into making these papers available because of the internet. Better late then never I guess. I'm familiar with them though.
As for the BoA, it is irrelevant if the entire scroll isn't available. What is available isn't anything close to what Joseph wrote about it. It wasn't even in the same genre. Don't rationalize away the truth of this. Even the church does not do so. Not only do we have the fragments of papyri we have Josephs's facsimiles of it. Its the right fragments. Even the Museum recognized it as such as did the Mormon church since it was returned to them as rightfully theirs.
I suspect that any evidence placed before you will be ignored. The common answer from the Mormon church is an acknowledgment of the contradiction between the papyri and Joe's interpretation and they rationalize this away as irrelevant since even the BoM wasn't really translated from the plates but transcribed through his "seer" stone which by the way was an occult practice that he used to deceive people into believing he could find treasure for them.
Think about that. He was into the occult. Into magic and used a "magic" rock to look for treasure. It was this rock that he used to interpret the BoM. So he used a demonic stone to translate plates that conveniently have disappeared.
Not only that but he taught the sin of Lucifer, and that is even more telling. Let me share the verse with you. Its Isaiah 14:14
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
In the ancient world the phrases "above the heights of the clouds," "riding on the clouds of heaven," "coming on the clouds," meant "deity." It was a phrase used for the Gods. Its found in Daniel about Yahweh. Its found in Baal worship and if I remember right, its in Egyptian literature as well.
So what does that verse say in short then... it says, "I will become a god. I will be like the Most High."
It is for this sin that Lucifer was removed from heaven.
This is the very thing Joseph taught and encouraged. The Mormon ordinances and temple ceremonies have nothing to do with worshiping god the father but so that a Mormon may one day reach the celestial kingdom and become a god.
So an occultic demonic practice as a young man, an "interpretation" of a book using an occultic/demonic tool, verifiable deception about these papyri, the fact that nothing in the Book of Mormon has ever been verified to be true, and last but not least he taught the sin of Lucifer.
There was a time that Joseph was desperate for money and when one of his men didn't sell his farm quick enough, received a revelation to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada. Men were dispatched to do this but utterly failed. When challenged on the revelation failing he "received" another revelation which said, "Some revelations are from God. Some revelations are from man. Some revelations are from the devil."
I think we know where Joseph's revelations came from.
Look, I'm hear because I love God and I love the Mormon people who I think are akin to me. They are good people that I believe have a true heart and similar family values, but we both can't be right. I'm here, not to fight, but to be a missionary to you. To invite you back to the true Christ who has the power to save and away from the verifiable deceptions of the devil who wants you to participate in his own deception by making you think you can become God. So when you pray and ask for that "burning in the bosom" that "internal witness" that you assign to the Holy Ghost, then I can only ask you to rethink the source of that witness and to ask yourself, "how would I know if Joseph Smith was a deciever?" Because if you can answer this question then, like me, you will quickly see that he is.
God Bless. I hope you do the right thing.
@@blusheep2 "What is available isn't anything close to what Joseph wrote about it."
The only fragment of which Joseph wrote anything other than "It is not needful to translate at this time" is fac #2.
Are you putting all your chickens into fac#2 being "isn't anything close"?
Back in the 60s the LDS Church published an article explicitly denying that the 11 fragments were the source of the Book of Abraham. Only critics have made the claim that they are. Just because the fragments are from the Book of Breathings and the Book of the Dead, does not tell us anything about the content of either the long or short scroll. Rendering any conclusion both unverifiable and unfalsifiable.
As for "magic", a terminology all of the Smiths rejected, dowsing and scrying were common folk traditions among 19th century frontier Christians. It would have been weird if they did not have any connection. There was no understanding of scrying being "demonic" or "occult" among the general residents of the time and place.
From the primary accounts, both member and nonmember, Joseph only used the Seer Stone to find lost objects. The only substantiated request to find treasure was Josiah Stowell. It was Joseph who convinced him that there was no treasure to be found. An afterwards Josiah hired Joseph to dig ditches.
The New Testament is clear that all who fully accept the grace and atonement of Jesus Christ will be coheirs with Him in the eternities. LDS Theology does not teach anyone will ever replace God the Father, only that through the power of Christ we can become more like Him. There is no explicit doctrine on what that precisely means. I think you misunderstand LDS doctrine on the subject. The Temple Endowment is a tool to make covenants that help us learn to be more like Jesus Christ in our daily lives.
"let me show you how he translated a fake, but the fact that the plates are fake does not bother me" 🤯🤯🤯🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I enjoyed this. He took a secular crack at it and some things added up… but didn’t pursue it!!
Y’all so in denial lol. Because he completely “humbugged” the book of Abraham too
Keep studying. You're following the wrong scholarship. Joseph was a seer and revelator. This does not mean that he pulled information word for word from a source document. Next you should study the book of Enoch. Joseph absolutely nailed that one.
The book of Abraham and the Egyptian not being an exact translation…well what ever happened to god working in mysterious ways? There was a reason nobody knew how to translate Egyptian
@@chrismoore2429 wait are you being sarcastic or you forreal cause i can't tell
The book of Abraham is just a bunch of made-up nonsense, claim the papyrus was written by Abraham with his own hand which was complete nonsense. The papyrus is 2,000 years too new to have anything to do with Abraham. Videos like this are simply work of an apologist to try to keep the believers believing.
@@GuyRegularThere have been writings outside of the bible circulating about abraham for thousands of years. Many of them being based on oral histories. He wasnt just a character in the hebrew bible, but an icon for the whole region of the world.
Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God believe in the word of God of the Holy Bible and in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ let no man deceive you
SATAN desires to have you and soft you as wheat.
Sift
@@heatherluna5075 Joseph Smith is of the devil he is a liar and a Deceiver just as all the Freemason Masonic order Brotherhood of death and their Jesuit orders Lucifer has fallen and the Nations have fallen for the craft of Lucifer Masonic Lodge in every nation of Darkness along with their Freemason Masonic pastors and false rabbis who build for the kingdom of antichrist and not for the kingdom of heaven thieves and robbers who's kingdoms of Darkness shall come to nothing broken and consumed forevermore only the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ Messiah Son of God Son of Man will be forever the New Jerusalem the kingdom not made by hands Kingdom of the spirit kingdom of righteousness having one entrance only through our Lord Jesus Christ Messiah Son of God Son of Man therefore let no man deceive you
@@swordoflight6200 ya'll don't know how punctuation works, why should i believe this string of words you were brainwashed to believe about the mormon church?
Nicely done. Thanks!
The fact that Smith couldn’t identity them as bogus doesn’t look so good, either. Couple that with his catastrophic failure on the whole Book of Abraham thing and it’s obvious he didn’t know Egyptian from chicken scratch.
Batteries must have been low on the magic rock.
The fact Joseph did even try to produce a translation suggests otherwise. He had them in his possession for about one day, and then sent them back.
I am unsure what failure you are referring to. Since neither Joseph Smith or the LDS Church has ever identified the eleven fragments as the source of the Book of Abraham, the fact they are not the source cannot be construed as a failure. When the fragments were discovered in the 1960s, within months the LDS Church had published an article in the Church magazine that the fragments were not the source. Historical records have always indicated that that the "long scroll" which was sold to a Chicago museum that was destroyed in the Great Fire was the source.
Critics claiming otherwise were only offering Straw Man fallacies.
It is interesting that he never went forward with translating the Kinderhook plates but did go forward with translating the Book of Abraham. If he was a con artist he would have been fine with concocting a translation for each. Instead we have contrasting examples that show that he didn't jump at the chance to make something up just for tomfoolery, as so many accuse him of.
Yeah we know for a fact that the scrolls had nothing to do with the book of Abraham, which Joseph Smith made up at a whole cloth.
@@bradensorensen966 Then why wouldn't he have done the same with the Kinderhook plates?
@@CMZIEBARTH He was in the process of translating them. Even though the language was made up as a prank. So even if he lost interest for arguments sake. Why did he claim that was about "he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt" when it was a made up scribbles?
Lets say if I make up some random characters to pull a prank on you. And you start reading it saying its authentic and its about so and so person. Wouldn't that prove you to be a liar and deceiver. Not even Islam which is also BS has this much clear evidence that its prophet was a total scam.
And just like any total scam prophet he did what every total scam prophet does. He goes after sex, money and power.
@@bradensorensen966 How? We do not have the scrolls to make comparisons with?
@@brettmajeske3525 we have the scrolls to make the comparison. We have the one in which JS was making notes with. Its called facsimile 1. So because you will have to keep the scam going you have to claim thathe wasnt translating. He was given revelation while he was claiming to translate.
Sorry i know it sucks but JS was a scam.
Wtf did you even say in this video? The plates were low priority for Joe so it’s all good? Would you hold anyone besides a Mormon leader to such low standards?
So you do not feel the priority a person demonstrates toward a project should be used as evidence to their opinion?
What would you expect him to do, after having received the plates?
You can learn a lot from watching South Park too they had a good take on it
I smell apologist
yeap, and it stinks....
Sorry but LDS are not concerned with truth they are concerned with how they feel.
Oh fine so lets settle this by what qualified Egyptologists who can be sustained by their peers say. Wonder what that is .. ?
🙂🙂🙂
Well put together video. Nothing to add.
Doesn’t seem like he paid much attention to it, plus he was even right about the symbols. Just didn’t know who made them. Anybody else ever get scammed, even if you try to listen to the Holy Ghost? Yeah exactly. It just happens. And God lets it happen sometimes without warning us in advance.
How could he translate (revelatory or non-relevatory) made up symbols?
I’m wondering if my salvation is based on the truth or false of the khook’s plates?
What a profound thing to say.
All the kinderhook plates incident tells you is if JS was a conman. If he was a false prophet then it most definitely means your church doesn't have the "priesthood" and the ordinances you claim you need to be saved. So yeah, it does matter for your salvation.
4:16 - “Also, if you were a pharaoh, you were automatically a descendent of Ham…”
Can you elaborate here? This seems to come out of left field. Probably a result of editing
They believe that after the great flood, the Earth was split into three areas for the three sons of Noah. Ham inherited Africa and therefore is the patriarch of all Egyptians including every Pharaoh.
redfightblue: My understanding (after growing up in the LDS church and discussing these topics for my entire adult life) is that the flood of Noah is mostly figurative.
Are you LDS? The reason I ask is because you used the third person in referring to who holds the flood belief.
@@seans5289 The kid in the video believes Abraham Ch 1. Ham discovered Egypt after the flood and established the government there. That's the answer to the question I replied to. That's why all Pharaohs are descendants of Ham. Abraham Ch 1 makes it very clear. If you think it's figurative then you would be at odds with the churches doctrine. I'm inactive LDS.
redfightblue: Thanks. I think I’m inactive LDS as well.
Do you believe in a global flood? I didn’t when I was a full-fledged member, and most LDS thinkers that I’ve read or interacted with would describe it as something of a large localized flood.
@@seans5289 I did believe in a global flood when I was active LDS. I do not now. It certainly could have been a local flood. Flood myths are prevalent in many ancient cultures.
He died before he could publish the translation
What evidence do you have of that?
@@brettmajeske3525 th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxH56GMSekMwLF-lyzv6SwIJAT2yMw3CXy
@@bradyquinton6544 That video does not present any new information. People around Joseph expect something more, as David admitted. But even following his death, there is no evidence of Joseph even trying to buy the Kinderhook Plates. Even if he didn't have time to translated them, as that video claims, he certainly had both the time and money to attempt to purchase them. Joseph was not murdered until over a year after the Kinderhook Plates were presented to him. Since his translation efforts only took a 2-3 months each, that would still be plenty of time if it had been important to him.
Ahhhh, so Joe Smith with his 3rd grade education tried to translate the kinderhook plates on his own, was unable to identify them as fake, and saw similar symbols as what he had in his failed translation of the funeral rights papyrus (book of Abraham) because he was off duty as the prophet at the moment. Makes perfect sense.
Joseph Smith didnt persue translating this because he knew that they were bogus..
how do you ask? because the Book of Mormon was bogus as well, but it was Joseph that made up those so called plates the first time. so when someone brought him plates that he didnt make himself, he knew that this was someone trying to catch him and calling him on it. He may have been a con artist, but a smart one, possibly the best one the world has ever seen if you look at how many people follow his lies and dont even know what they are and how they came to be.
THIS!!! 1000%
Are you serious? The biggest con man isn’t Joseph Smith. It’s whoever gave us the Bible.
Yes!
that goes to show that you really need the time to research this stuff, this is why a testimony is of most importance. Man, the more I dig into church history the more I realize how much of a test of faith it is to be part of the covenant people of the Lord. You really need to lean on Christ and the gift og the Holy Ghost and remember the covenansts that we have made.
Joseph lied
thats all you got bro? LOL@@Clip5299
@@CarlosRomero-pl9tkthat's all he needs once you ACTUALLY do the research. 🤷♂️
Or maybe he went jail and couldn’t translate them?
I didn't know about this incident, but as you said at the end, "It does not bother me."
Maybe this, or maybe that, or maybe Smith believed them, or maybe he didnt. Nice that you covered alll the maybes. The deal is, He was a Prophet, AHEM, so the force of discernment had left him .
Why? That doesn't make any sense at all. The Gift of Discernment does not mean he would know if something was true or false before having the opportunity to study it out in his own mine first and them asking the Lord, the pattern described in the D&C.
@@brettmajeske3525 Why bother defending this or that method of receiving revelation? If it fails it fails and you're just meant to accept it... Even following the pattern described in D&C isn't guaranteed to work. That's its whole appeal. You can count the hits and ignore the misses. It's academic dishonesty as a means of self-delusion.
@@brettmajeske3525 Wasn't Joseph Smith a satanic prophet according to his own words?
@@alejandromartin8347 No.
@@brettmajeske3525 If he said he was a Satanic Prophet would you still follow Joseph Smith?
Joseph just doesn’t miss
Nice try but,no cigar. Or maybe Joseph was a fake, we may never know.
The existence of so much anti is likely to insure that those who believe actually have to use faith.
@@mtddmtdd1 What about the percentage of "anti material" that is proved false, inaccurate, or misleading?
I've noticed that God loves making a fool out of his prophets for us to have more faith.
My testimony was greatly strengthened knowing that Joseph Smith incorrectly prophesied about multiple ancient texts. That's when I knew the Book of Mormon was correctly translated despite contradictions in archeological evidence.
Sorry for the sarcasm. It was tough when I realized this guy was actually a fraud and I was lied to my whole life. Stay safe out there all
Bravo! Great material. Translations are not "spiritually inspired".
Leads you to believe?
Leads you to believe? 🤔
What's the purpose of this video if even yourself do not have a certainty of your premise?
Believe IS NOT fact. You failed. 🙄
There are no provable "facts" in this instance, only opinions. Everyone has their own opinions, and David did a good job explaining his own. If you want facts then you need to invent a time machine.
🌈✋✈️ US GOV, delivered the children that were taken at the deer valley massacre back to their people massacre deer valley
I appreciate your video here! I spent years doing similar mental gymnastics like this - focusing on only part of the story to explain away each problem with the Church. The problem is that the stack of problems is really big when you take a step back. And when you see that each has a common theme and each requires painful mental gymnastics to explain away - it starts to become clear that the whole story is just made up....created and ad libbed as it went on - pulling from surroundings around Joseph Smith and evolving with his opinions - the quantity of revisions, twists and turns - all lining up with personal events for Joseph...it just all starts to add up to one four letter word. Hoax.
To me, Joseph often acts like he believes in his own calling. In this case, he seems to believe that his Grammar and Alphabet actually was a good source to translate with. So he attempted to do so for the kinderhook plates. If he knew his Book of Abraham translation was a hoax, he would have known that his Grammar was also a hoax. But why didn't he continue and create an entire translation, as he was so adept at doing with the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc? Apparently, because he was unable to do so (because the plates were fake).
The problem is, the implication you make here is that you're done with "mental gymnastics." I don't believe that.
I would say that any religion requires mental gymnastics, same with any faith. That is why they aren't meant to be "proven" secularly first. I hope you still believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world!
@@lexingtonconcord8751 I think I trust me to speak for me better than you to speak for me. 😉 But you can believe whatever you want. It's always possible I'm wrong.
@@joeshawcroft7121I think I agree generally. The one thing I would tweak is mental gymnastics and faith are not the same thing. Definition of faith: “faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” To me mental gymnastics is maintaining belief in something not seen in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Each person for themselves has to decide the balance of evidence either way. For me...after 20 years being a member, converting at 19 and having my Catholic family cut me off, going on a mission, marrying in the temple and countless incredible experiences in the Church - it has been quite heartbreaking to finally sit down and weigh the evidence. The massive quantity of gigantic problems with every aspect of the Church and it's origin story - and worse that Church leaders have been aware of and actively hid these things for over 100 years - and today have extremely flimsy explanations for some of the problems and zero explanation for the rest. For me personally... believing in the Church anymore is mental gymnastics...not faith. Now - yes I still have faith in Jesus Christ. Because the balance between faith and mental gymnastics is different...the evidence balance is different than it is for Joseph Smith and the Church.
Wasn't Smith always in contact with God?
Side note, the Book of Abraham isn't a literal translation.
Not according to his journal.
Joseph Smith described the papyrus as Abraham's own "signature" written by "his own hand". It was very much taught by Joseph Smith that the book of Abraham was a literal translation. The intro to the book of Abraham still states that it was a translation from papyrus. This calls into question his divine seership in general as well as his gift of prophecy as well as his gift of discernment.
I care more about the truth than I fear real world quotes and information. It's hard to see a liar if you view everything through a very sanitized gospel lens given by the liar himself.
JEHOVAH is the God of the TRUTH!
Mormonism does
Sorry, no
The answer is yes.
But that does clearly indicate that he was a complete fraud!
No you just want him to be! Have you ever read the book of Mormon? And if so, why are you afraid of it? What does it say, that's so HORRIBLE? Does the church you currently attend, preach against the gospel?
stardustgirl white and delightsome
stardustgirl the Book of Jacob is a Shakespearean soliloquy. So yes I’m afraid of the book that uses “adieu” in 400 B.C. I’m also afraid of the book that says that the true Bible prophesied Joseph Smith. When JS translated the Bible and added his own name to it, I became very afraid of the BoM. I go to church every Sunday and read my come follow me lessons throughout the week but I KNOW JS was NOT a prophet.
@@socaranectien1933 just like cheesecake mmm
It means he saw one character on the plates that he happened to know a translation for, then quit when he realized the plates were BS. But of course, you didn't pay attention to the videoor filtered it through your biases, didn't you?
👍😁😂🤣😂😁😂🤣🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Believe that which was written by God his Commandments written on the tablets of stone and given to Moses
Kinder am hook? Wie bitte?...
great explanation!
Expecto Patronum !!!
Nothing could prove Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He was a true prophet of God, spiritually and academically.
Holly odii yeah! Just like nothing could disprove fairies! Fairies are a real and true, spiritually and scientifically. Just because! 😃
Holly odii book of Abraham
No he claimed it was spiritual. He died before he was able to finish.
We could've had the sequel to the book of mormon, it would've been interesting to listen the apologetics on that one 😂😂😂
@@dr33776 well yeah just like the first 130 pages hahahah. Book of Mormon is crap