Healthy Software Developer I’ve been thoroughly enjoying your videos. Keep up the good work. We need more voices like yours in the industry. I’ve been struggling with burnout for some time now, despite not necessarily working a huge amount of hours on a regular basis, although I’ve certainly done my share of that on occasion. As far as what I’m doing about it, suffice it to say that it’s a process. I made a lateral move in my company to sort of “hit the reset button” and when that didn’t do the trick I returned to my old spot. Presently I’ve been examining my own role in this (I’ve actually went as far as watching a couple of complete college psych lectures online), so I relate to that angle of your talk as well. I’m still working out how much of my problem is the environment and culture of my company and how much is caused by my own behavior. I’m finding that I am the most unhappy when being asked to split my time between separate projects for a variety of reasons that I won’t get into, but I wonder what your thoughts are on this and the perception that employees should be able to “multi task”, especially when dealing with complex knowledge work like software. Thanks again and take care.
Kull thanks for your encouragement, it really helps. My opinion on multitasking is that it sucks. Employers that want to feel they can do more with less people love to get people to do it. It’s been proven time and again though as humans we aren’t designed for it, we waste time as we task switch, and ultimately both projects suffer and don’t receive our best. I’m sorry to hear that you’re struggling with it. Hopefully you’re able to figure out a situation at your current gig that allows you to focus so you can do your best work - and with less frustration!
@F1LT3R I really enjoy being independent, but I don't like having to try to line up my next project while I'm on one. I'm getting better at it, but I have to be careful to prevent myself from being too critical path or overworked otherwise I have no time to put back into selling myself to new clients!
What i've noticed is that i can easily work 12-14 hours per day, 2 or 2 and half days in a row, but after that i need a day or day and half for a rest. And i absolutely can't work five 8-hour days in a row, i'm just become intellectually impotent in last two days.
I've been through some pretty bad burnout in my career, and like you've said, it's mostly due to the expectation that myself and others have of me. I'm on a project that looks like it may get crunchy, but I'm going to give the whole "self respect" thing a go. Thanks.
+Brett Fernandes glad to hear you are already aware of this. Setting boundaries and giving myself proper self care have been a theme in my ongoing struggles to stay healthy in our industry. You’re not alone!
Something that's helped me a lot in my career is to just come up with excuses why you can't work overtime when they demand it. If they do somehow force you in over your hours just yawn a lot and just say things like 'urgh man just feeling really tired' and not do a lot of work. They're not going to fire you because you're not able to work highly skilled hours for free. If they do then that's probably a good thing.
This is a great video. I made basically all the mistakes you laid out in it when I got my first job (which I'm currently working at now.) When I first started at my company, I was seen as the "genius" developer of the company and the most likely to be promoted. Truth is, I'm a pretty average developer, however I had no life at the time and spent every waking moment working or learning about software. Now, a year and a half later the pandemic happened and lead to existential anxiety which eventually made me realize I need to enjoy life more and work less. The problem is everyone expects me to be some genius who just does everything, and now that I'm only working 8 hour days they think I'm slacking. I'm so burned out and even a bit depressed at this point, however, they're announcing the deadline for the biggest project in our company's history tomorrow. Based on projects in the past, and conversations with my co-workers, I know for a fact we will all be working extra hours. I'm going to refuse and am actively looking for another job. TL;DR As stated in the video, don't make the mistake of overworking before deadlines are even close.
Hope you're able to set realistic expectations and enforce your boundaries. It's good to hear one positive thing you took away from the pandemic is the need to take care of yourself. I hope you find a way to be a valuable developer AND prevent yourself from being a doormat! Hang in there...
My problem is my mind is all or nothing. It goes with my perfectionism. I will either put 110% into some project I'm interested and risk burn out (anxiety coding powers activate), or I will find myself full of apathy, disinterested, and depressed. I've really struggled with just trying to pace myself and treat this career as a marathon, not a 100m dash.
Thank you, such a great topic to discuss, I kinda relate with the topic especially when it comes to the below points. : 1. unable to set boundaries between the working hour and free time 2. Being trap in flexible working hours schema. 3.. say no to be working late and labels as not team player
My principle is that people who commit to project schedule should be accountable for the schedule. If certain managerial person makes a schedule without talking to the technical staff, then the failure of the schedule should affect his evaluation. Real burnout is caused not exactly by long hours, by more precisely when people have to work without any control on the contents and the deadlines. You can have burnout even working 4 hours per day, if you know your work has no chance to make sense.
Thank you! this is so truth, you got to train your manager! I'm in the middle of my burn out caused by the crunch time, and this video made me to realized I was setting a bad example being available late.
Very well done. I’m a tech lead and enjoy my position immensely at my financial company. You’ve given me some things to think about to ensure and possibly enhance my job satisfaction by setting stronger personal boundaries. Thanks a lot.
I really wish I saw this before my 2018 burnout, but I was too occupied by deadlines and the success of a project I was responsible for and that I really enjoyed, that I didn't see it coming. Thank you for your content!
I needed this. I've been burning midnight oil the whole week because of BAs that scoped a project after having drinking whatever they were drinking🤦♂️😒
Good for you! Setting boundaries is an ongoing challenge for me. I'm always trying to find that balance between doing a good job vs being overextended. Wish I could say I always fall on the right side...
@@HealthyDev you could also see it that more people in the field of software development need to have their expectations reset to a realistic level and be able to stand up and defend their boundaries. Over the years (although I haven't been doing this nearly as long as you have) I've arrived at lots of the same conclusions on what the relationship between developer and company should be and how to take better care of myself. (learning from great colleagues, luckily) In essence: More people need to benefit from your wisdom!
@@JakeBastlerZ thanks for the encouragement Jake, it means a lot really! I think part of the problem is trust. Leaders and managers who don't do the work see our desire for more realistic expectations as being lazy or not working hard - when the reality is it gets better results for the business. But unless they trust us, supporting the changes necessary is very difficult. Which is why I often need to first have some "wins" under my belt with a new manager or a client, and have spent some time getting to really know them, before I can have those deeper conversations. Unfortunately many developers don't take the time (or estimate/plan in a way to give them the time) to do this. I hope to do my small part in changing that.
@@HealthyDev I recently watched Robert C. Martin's clean code talks that were recorded in the Netherlands one or two years ago and inbetween lots of useful bits of information and hearing lots of stuff I agree with out of the mouth of someone with so much experience (convoluted code is rude etc.), the one sound bite that really stuck with me was "Going fast means going well" because otherwise technical debt will slow down development of new features and improvements to a crawl, which gets exponentially worse. To have it put so succinctly is great and managers not understanding this is one of the reasons I quit my last job and switched to my current one, where I have a lot more freedom to enforce standards. In fact it was asked of me and management is actually, get this, grateful for getting structure and professionalism into their development. Well as far as I can provide it, of course I'm far from perfect, but I'm really optimistic about the way it's going and I have lots opportunities to broaden my horizons. I'm really thankful I didn't actually have to show wins or fight for this, but that management listened to my colleagues when they told them it was sort of essential to keep the business running. The way I always put it with the colleagues from my last job, who I'm still good friends with, is this: When you have a huge pile of crap (think triceratops), it's no use putting a little bird poop onto every week and hope it'll turn out good, you've got to get shovelling instead. Not very poetic, but they all seem to agree that this is their biggest issue with their management not understanding that basic fact. Anyway, I hope you'll someday find the uhh ... energy I guess, the vibe, to make some new videos and that you don't feel pressured to deliver, but that it stays as heartfelt and true to yourself. While I understand that anger is no sustainable energy source, I think it'd be great if you continued to honestly voice frustrations, something which a lot of developer youtubers seem to sweep under the rug and dismiss indirectly.
@@JakeBastlerZ sounds like a great gig! That's excellent. The longer I do this, the more I try to enjoy those times and not try to overthink them. Congrats!!
Jayme, you mentioned working 8 hours, but some people argue that the number of hours needed for a task is pretty much dependent on that task. And as an independent programmer I feel that I continually suffer from burnout, even though I *usually* work less than 8 hours a day. The issue is that if I try harder I will not be able to work at all the next day. It's a stressful job. But is it only me? Am I doing something wrong? Or is software dev really a very exhaustive work?
Thanks for your feedback and question. If I find myself starting to burnout it’s usually either the anxiety of trying to meet someone’s unrealistic expectations, my own unrealistic expectations for myself, or I’m not treating myself right (personal lifestyle and relationships). I’m sure there are many different causes but not sleeping enough, diets too low in protein (or fat if doing keto), too much caffeine, and unresolved personal problems have made me feel extra exhausted when it’s not something specifically at work. That’s just been my experience.
:) Thank you. Now after two years from when I asked the question, I'm in a much better shape. Yes, there were social life issues that got resolved eventually, but also my most profound finding was that the diet was making me feel like poop. Once I went strictly low carb, my work stamina went up to the roof, and even the mood enhanced significantly. Almost nothing else changed in my environment. I recommend taking the diet effects seriously. May I also mention that I wasn't a coffee drinker, but now I exploit the benefits of a little coffee every while and then..
In my first job I had a project with moving targets and a tight budget. I ended up working 10 to 12 hours a day for one year, sometimes even weekends. I also had my band and ended up quitting. From my experience, when you are in this situation, you can only suck it up if you can survive this temporarilly, finish the project and look for another job.
I know what this is like, I had a case of crunch time for more than two months. Most weekdays was a case of working until 22:00 or later, even 02:00. Also working on weekends. The employer simply said "No need to work overtime, so there will be no overtime pay". The reality was that the deadline was not shifting because somebody promised a launch date and somebody else wanted the launch even earlier than that. In the meantime, there were a lot of issues and scope creep coming in plus the usual last minute changes.
I often get into the situation where: 1. People rely on me. I'm good at my job, and I'm needed to help sort things out; I'm usually in a senior position. 2. The project is late, like it always is. And there is pressure to finish and general business drama. 3. I've made some mistakes, for example, architectural mistakes (architecture is hard!) or written code that's problematic for whatever reason. ... those three things become a "perfect storm" of sorts and I work extra hours, and inevitably I burn out. I always feel incredibly guilty to take time off. Time off just seems to *add more pressure*; I can't relax when I know others are working themselves to the bone. That's especially true when I feel I've made bad architectural decisions, or wrote problematic code. So inevitably that responsibility and guilt causes me to push harder and harder until I burn out. Been at it for close to 20 years now, and I burn out once or twice a year. The most recent burnout was the worst. I couldn't work for more than a month. Any advice you can offer? I've been coding all my life, and I don't really want to change careers. But I often think the career is a bad fit for me.
Watch my video on leading software developers better by letting go. It’s not a silver bullet (nothing is!) but some of the things I share there really helped me get to a more sustainable way of working. Hopefully there’s something of value for you in there: th-cam.com/video/Fp5oQyNV_ws/w-d-xo.html
I've had burnout even on a voluntary job where I could take as long as I liked as the program was a gift ( a game for residents of a care home ) for others. I since learned to deal with burnout by taking a project one step at a time....in manageable chunks....rather than 'going tharn' ( a phrase from Watership Down....what happens when the rabbits get caught in headlights ) by constantly worrying about the entire project.
Just wanted to say your content is amazing! I definitely sometimes get too excited about my job and want to learn new things for work which ends up me working too many hours. You have given me lots to think about! Thank you! I hope you will inspire the entire tech industry to see the value in healthy work life balance!
Great content, I'm watching this in 2020. I hate companies with unhealthy overtime cultures, and you're right California has an abundance of them. I always tell other devs that working regular overtime effectively reduces one's salary and sets an unhealthy precedent. Consulting seems like a great way to go in this business or working as an independent contractor. I've found that devs often become the scapegoat for poorly managed projects.
At some point in my life I set a limit of 8 hours per day. If someone wants more then they must pay, and it'll be an overtime rate. Thankfully though around here companies also started to realise that longer hours produced lower quality work. So most, but not all, have come around to the idea that rather than trying to squeeze as many hours of work as possible out of each person they should be making sure that people aren't working long hours. Overworking people isn't unique to software though. Especially where there is a general culture of worshipping business and believing that a business is doing someone a favour by employing them.
Worked in San Diego for 2 years and my life was my job. The competitiveness of the job market there promotes that culture of, "commit your entire life to your job or we'll find someone that will."
I just watched your other video about working on projects in the lifecycle phase that suits you best. I think getting this wrong can also play a big part in overwhelm and burnout. I find large, complex, late cycle projects with a lot of existing processes stressful to work on, as my freedom feels restricted and I can't be creative. Whereas I see colleagues that love the lack of responsibility, clear processes, slow pace etc and are far less stressed.
Very interesting and comforting input! Thanks for that. I might need to re-evaluate and concentrate more on what made me start programming in the first place.
Jayme, really enjoying your stories and advice on the many topics of software development. Highly valuable content. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Thank you for this video, and sad that I only found it recently. I currently work in infosec, and for the last few years, I've been battling burnout. On my own, I have very slowly been realizing that the source of my burnout is mostly my own doing. I love what I do and put in extra effort to push beyond my own capabilities because I love solving the puzzles. This is fine in sporadic bursts, but I've been doing this for years. It's reached the point that I've exhausted my brain so much that sometimes even simple tasks that should take me 5 minutes end up taking me hours. Work doesn't expect me to do more than 40 hours in a week, but I do it to myself. It's not sustainable, so I renegotiated my contract such that I get 3 months off per year as a way to force myself to stop working. It's helping, but recovery is a long journey as long as I continue to work in this field. I can not help myself from working too much, so I am trying to use the time off as a way to strike a balance between my obsession and my body's need for real rest. and
I remember doing 12 to 14 hours a day for 8 months 6 days or 7 days a week. After that, the thought of a bug/defect and every ping got me so anxious that I would have chest pain and struggle to fall asleep or have nightmares. Luckily, after that, the project calmed down, and then there wasn't much to do for like 6 months where I just chilled but then I got bored of chilling and now left because I wanna do some work lol
I feel like I’m going crazy on this late project.. PM gets walked all over by client, client is dictating us 4 devs in regard to tasks, and I’ve been working 5 weekends in a row before we deploy to UAT on Monday.. I’m so sick of this I’m going crazy and feel unhealthy
we don't even have UAT env, from laptops straight to prod... today I said "I do not work like this anymore, I don't work weekends and nights" - managers and directors went silent. I turned off my laptop and went for a long walk.
It feels like I have prolonged burnout. Even when I go on a vacation it takes me multiple days to relax. This past one I got called while away for some problem. Then when I got back I was paged. My anxiety creeped up again, my heart started beating faster. I'm the only one on my team that can program seriously and sometimes I'm working fing magic. I feel under appreciated like my work doesn't feel important and have impact. I didn't feel this way at the start of my career. I'm not sure what to do honestly. I feel like I'm working myself into a stress grave.
If I were you (and I’m not, so take this with a grain of salt), I’d consider asking for an additional resource or finding a job where you’re not the only developer. I can do jobs when I’m the only developer if I have to but I’d much prefer having at least one other person who’s capable of everything I am for backup.
as a programmer, i have had to bear all the weight of a few failed projects. i failed to estimate in some cases, but in many it was poor/shifting requirements and no help
I hear you. That's really hard. At this point in my career, I create status reports with big red flag indicators on anything blocked by bad requirements. They get circulated to leadership every week so there's no denying who's to blame if things aren't moving forward...
Jayme, do you have a vid about "working 8 hours seems like too much"? Without overtime, I barely can sustain my life. My apartment is a mess, I eat shit, I barely improve in my career because I simply don't have energy to do anything besides work. And if I don't prioritize work, I have a feeling that I am under a tight surveillance and might lose a job. Maybe I should just loose my job and stop worrying about all that mess?
Hey Mikhail I’m so sorry to hear about your struggles. I don’t have a video exactly about that, but tons of things can happen making it hard to work even 8 hours. It sounds like something happened either at your current job or in the past that has you concerned about being let go. If you don’t feel safe, you probably need a better job but I know how easy that is for me to say since I’m not in your shoes. I hope you find a better opportunity, or some way to trust in the future enough to lower your anxiety. Better diet, exercise, and sleep are essential for me coping with stress. But even then sometimes a situation is too toxic and I have to move on. Hoping you have the discernment to find the best path forward and come to peace soon!
amazing video..could totally relate to it....why do i have to burn my personal time when the management screws up in getting the requirement properly .. & Indian managers always screw up
+1 I am sick of Indian managers and directors in IT sector in US. What they do, they kiss asses all the time and broadcast a lot of BS. I am done with working for US big corpos.
when you choose a job YOU ACTUALLY CHOOSE A BOSS... believe me ... I worked for 15 years... and bosses that are too geeks shit persons will make you work like hell...so at the interview i knew it from the begining what kind of life i will have
I've now just realized that I'm burned out. We're supposed to migrate a Mainframe program yo Microservices with Spring Boot. It really sucks, we're expected to deliver analysis on pl1 code with a bunch of unknown arbitrary codes. We've already switched our product manager 2 times. I hardly understand what this service actually does. I feel dread just thinking on the job that I'll do tomorrow because I'm sure anything won't matter because there are a lot of unknown stuff we're yet to figure out.
I lot of it is growing a frickin spine i agree. Lets be real, the stereotype of the nerdy cowardly socially awkward pushover actually exists. There's so much news of crunch in the game industry and to this day there's no Video Game Dev Union. I heard so many stories of people getting so burned out with crunch and stuff, but at what point do they stand up for themselves and say "hey man fuck your product im going home im tired and i got no work life balance whatsoever, this is inhumane, im sick and tired depressed unhappy, etc this job is not worth the sacrifice" If you let yourself be treated like a walking carpet then the higher ups will happily do that.
All good points. It started out me just wanting to do a good job but over time there was definitely carpet walking ;) I’ve since learned better but I hope other people deal with this better from considering some of the stuff in these videos!!
@Gabriel Liwerant The team is not worth my health, they're just coworkers, not family. This is not fighting a war or something, its just software. Having to work 80 is an upper management project planning failure, why should I pay with my health and well being for their poor management. No no no, you didn't let the team down, upper management let the team down, you're just one person who wants to be healthy and happy, and that takes priority.
@Gabriel Liwerant I understand what you're saying Gabriel, but I guess I got to a point where I won't let others' inability to control themselves impact me. I've had to tell people "if you are willing to sacrifice your personal relationships for the job go for it, but I've done an honest day's work and me staying here longer isn't going to make a big enough difference to get us out of this hole through sheer will. We need to work smarter and not harder". If they can't see that, they can be disappointed with me. I don't see any reason to let people who can't set boundaries influence how I feel about myself.
Half our team is in India, so I constantly have to take meetings 7:30-9pm at night. That alone has been draining. But what if my manager considers every day crunch time? 1 day late is considered failure. Good code, ahead of release, but a week later than promised = shitty code worthy of disappointment.
Sadly I don’t think software is a good career for people who want to have a family, hobbies, and friends. It is a career only for earning as much money as possible when you’re young, before you burnout. Companies prefer to hire younger and less experienced employees because they know they can get 60+ works out of them.
I started a software internship this summer. The company has a good work culture. They only ever expect 40 hrs per week and they don't care when you do them. They also have a flat hierarchy, so pretty much everyone is a delevoper and even project managers and tech leads are working on their own parts of the code. The only issue is that I'm completely disinterested and disengaged from the project at hand. The project has a 20 year old c++ codebase, and most of the time I'm just sifting through the code trying to fix some bug I assigned myself to while hardly understanding any of the established architecture or practices. I basically spend the entire day staring at this stuff and maybe pushing 3 lines or so of code fixing some bug after several hours of staring at a screen. I'm constantly exhausted and 8 hours feels like an enormous drag even though it's supposed to be the "normal hours". I'm working on a side project for college this fall that I'm much more passionate about, but I end up coming home exhausted and only able to work on it for like an hour max. I can't imagine working 60-90 hours per week.
My scrum master does not trust she has two other developers who give her too optimistic answers they r weak technically and they dont give realistic estimates so she hates me
Been grinding the past year and a half since graduation and feel burnt out at times but being a new dev I feel like if I say it out loud it'll be looked down upon because of the fact I've only been coding for a year and a half. Thoughts on this mindset?
@@GorillaDev417 I can understand it, I don't think there's anything wrong. It's a tough job. Honestly (this is just my opinion), one of the best things you can do for yourself is to accept that this job will always have things you aren't good at since we learn all the time. You'll get better the more you're exposed to, but feeling out of your league isn't a bad thing - it's just normal in this profession. Hang in there!
If my coworkers' inability to set healthy boundaries for work/life balance actually result in a threat to my employment, they are just as toxic as a micromanager. Get out!
Company burning you out... when you work like hell and don't increase your pay...and you asked yourself what a fuck... and then you apply to other companies and you ask for more money and they reject you because you asked too much money ..: ((
90% depends who is your boss.. if he is a workholic fucked up guy... expect that he will force you to work like helll.. if your boss is not so skillfull a little bit idiot than what you do seems amazing to him either you think is peanuts:)))
I have not seen anybody being able to perform well after 3 intensive days. I typically find myself having brain fart, hating my job and tend to avoid doing the task because of my body and mind are too tired and need a change. After rest (a weekend, for example), it typically takes moments to solve what has been taking hours on a tired brain.
If your'e not writing code or solving problems 10 -12 hours a day you'd better be skilling up and certing in your free time. You may reach a good spot someday, but it won't last long.
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How have you dealt with burnout from long hours? Leave your strategies and feedback below. Thanks!
Healthy Software Developer I’ve been thoroughly enjoying your videos. Keep up the good work. We need more voices like yours in the industry.
I’ve been struggling with burnout for some time now, despite not necessarily working a huge amount of hours on a regular basis, although I’ve certainly done my share of that on occasion.
As far as what I’m doing about it, suffice it to say that it’s a process. I made a lateral move in my company to sort of “hit the reset button” and when that didn’t do the trick I returned to my old spot.
Presently I’ve been examining my own role in this (I’ve actually went as far as watching a couple of complete college psych lectures online), so I relate to that angle of your talk as well.
I’m still working out how much of my problem is the environment and culture of my company and how much is caused by my own behavior.
I’m finding that I am the most unhappy when being asked to split my time between separate projects for a variety of reasons that I won’t get into, but I wonder what your thoughts are on this and the perception that employees should be able to “multi task”, especially when dealing with complex knowledge work like software.
Thanks again and take care.
Kull thanks for your encouragement, it really helps.
My opinion on multitasking is that it sucks. Employers that want to feel they can do more with less people love to get people to do it. It’s been proven time and again though as humans we aren’t designed for it, we waste time as we task switch, and ultimately both projects suffer and don’t receive our best.
I’m sorry to hear that you’re struggling with it. Hopefully you’re able to figure out a situation at your current gig that allows you to focus so you can do your best work - and with less frustration!
Thanks, Jayme.
@Chooey Sooares nice! I learned way longer than it should have taken me how much nature helps me recover. Glad to hear you already know!
@F1LT3R I really enjoy being independent, but I don't like having to try to line up my next project while I'm on one. I'm getting better at it, but I have to be careful to prevent myself from being too critical path or overworked otherwise I have no time to put back into selling myself to new clients!
What i've noticed is that i can easily work 12-14 hours per day, 2 or 2 and half days in a row, but after that i need a day or day and half for a rest. And i absolutely can't work five 8-hour days in a row, i'm just become intellectually impotent in last two days.
Same lol 😂 like exactly I usually do through my week
The biggest problem when developing any software is not how hard it is to develop but how hard it is not to give up.
Truth!
I've been through some pretty bad burnout in my career, and like you've said, it's mostly due to the expectation that myself and others have of me. I'm on a project that looks like it may get crunchy, but I'm going to give the whole "self respect" thing a go. Thanks.
+Brett Fernandes glad to hear you are already aware of this. Setting boundaries and giving myself proper self care have been a theme in my ongoing struggles to stay healthy in our industry. You’re not alone!
Same man. I love this industry but it seems like the "shit runs downhill" mantra is so prevalent in software and fingers often get pointed.
Something that's helped me a lot in my career is to just come up with excuses why you can't work overtime when they demand it. If they do somehow force you in over your hours just yawn a lot and just say things like 'urgh man just feeling really tired' and not do a lot of work. They're not going to fire you because you're not able to work highly skilled hours for free. If they do then that's probably a good thing.
This is a great video. I made basically all the mistakes you laid out in it when I got my first job (which I'm currently working at now.)
When I first started at my company, I was seen as the "genius" developer of the company and the most likely to be promoted. Truth is, I'm a pretty average developer, however I had no life at the time and spent every waking moment working or learning about software.
Now, a year and a half later the pandemic happened and lead to existential anxiety which eventually made me realize I need to enjoy life more and work less. The problem is everyone expects me to be some genius who just does everything, and now that I'm only working 8 hour days they think I'm slacking. I'm so burned out and even a bit depressed at this point, however, they're announcing the deadline for the biggest project in our company's history tomorrow. Based on projects in the past, and conversations with my co-workers, I know for a fact we will all be working extra hours. I'm going to refuse and am actively looking for another job.
TL;DR As stated in the video, don't make the mistake of overworking before deadlines are even close.
Hope you're able to set realistic expectations and enforce your boundaries. It's good to hear one positive thing you took away from the pandemic is the need to take care of yourself. I hope you find a way to be a valuable developer AND prevent yourself from being a doormat! Hang in there...
My problem is my mind is all or nothing. It goes with my perfectionism. I will either put 110% into some project I'm interested and risk burn out (anxiety coding powers activate), or I will find myself full of apathy, disinterested, and depressed. I've really struggled with just trying to pace myself and treat this career as a marathon, not a 100m dash.
Thank you, such a great topic to discuss,
I kinda relate with the topic especially when it comes to the below points. :
1. unable to set boundaries between the working hour and free time
2. Being trap in flexible working hours schema.
3.. say no to be working late and labels as not team player
My principle is that people who commit to project schedule should be accountable for the schedule.
If certain managerial person makes a schedule without talking to the technical staff, then the failure of the schedule should affect his evaluation.
Real burnout is caused not exactly by long hours, by more precisely when people have to work without any control on the contents and the deadlines. You can have burnout even working 4 hours per day, if you know your work has no chance to make sense.
That’s certainly one cause of burnout! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you! this is so truth, you got to train your manager! I'm in the middle of my burn out caused by the crunch time, and this video made me to realized I was setting a bad example being available late.
Very well done. I’m a tech lead and enjoy my position immensely at my financial company. You’ve given me some things to think about to ensure and possibly enhance my job satisfaction by setting stronger personal boundaries. Thanks a lot.
You’re welcome glad you enjoy your position! Hope that positive attitude sticks with you through the challenges. Stay strong. 💪
I really wish I saw this before my 2018 burnout, but I was too occupied by deadlines and the success of a project I was responsible for and that I really enjoyed, that I didn't see it coming. Thank you for your content!
Glad you enjoyed it! I've been there too. Nobody tells you when you're going too hard...
It´s great to hear about this subjects... make a video about coworkers who talk bad things of you to the boss and how to deal with that.
That’s a complex topic! But definitely a good one. I’ll see if I can help start a conversation around that in the future. Thanks for the feedback. 👍
I needed this. I've been burning midnight oil the whole week because of BAs that scoped a project after having drinking whatever they were drinking🤦♂️😒
Good for you! Setting boundaries is an ongoing challenge for me. I'm always trying to find that balance between doing a good job vs being overextended. Wish I could say I always fall on the right side...
Why haven’t I found your channel one or maybe two years ago. You’re doing a great job man ;)
Thanks Sergey! Just sharing what I learned the hard way that I wish other people told me.
im binge-watching your videos, you definitely deserve and will get more subs
dude your content is amazing surprised your not getting more views
Thanks Alex. It’s okay I’m in no hurry ;)
@@HealthyDev you could also see it that more people in the field of software development need to have their expectations reset to a realistic level and be able to stand up and defend their boundaries. Over the years (although I haven't been doing this nearly as long as you have) I've arrived at lots of the same conclusions on what the relationship between developer and company should be and how to take better care of myself. (learning from great colleagues, luckily)
In essence: More people need to benefit from your wisdom!
@@JakeBastlerZ thanks for the encouragement Jake, it means a lot really! I think part of the problem is trust. Leaders and managers who don't do the work see our desire for more realistic expectations as being lazy or not working hard - when the reality is it gets better results for the business. But unless they trust us, supporting the changes necessary is very difficult. Which is why I often need to first have some "wins" under my belt with a new manager or a client, and have spent some time getting to really know them, before I can have those deeper conversations. Unfortunately many developers don't take the time (or estimate/plan in a way to give them the time) to do this. I hope to do my small part in changing that.
@@HealthyDev I recently watched Robert C. Martin's clean code talks that were recorded in the Netherlands one or two years ago and inbetween lots of useful bits of information and hearing lots of stuff I agree with out of the mouth of someone with so much experience (convoluted code is rude etc.), the one sound bite that really stuck with me was "Going fast means going well" because otherwise technical debt will slow down development of new features and improvements to a crawl, which gets exponentially worse. To have it put so succinctly is great and managers not understanding this is one of the reasons I quit my last job and switched to my current one, where I have a lot more freedom to enforce standards. In fact it was asked of me and management is actually, get this, grateful for getting structure and professionalism into their development. Well as far as I can provide it, of course I'm far from perfect, but I'm really optimistic about the way it's going and I have lots opportunities to broaden my horizons.
I'm really thankful I didn't actually have to show wins or fight for this, but that management listened to my colleagues when they told them it was sort of essential to keep the business running.
The way I always put it with the colleagues from my last job, who I'm still good friends with, is this: When you have a huge pile of crap (think triceratops), it's no use putting a little bird poop onto every week and hope it'll turn out good, you've got to get shovelling instead. Not very poetic, but they all seem to agree that this is their biggest issue with their management not understanding that basic fact.
Anyway, I hope you'll someday find the uhh ... energy I guess, the vibe, to make some new videos and that you don't feel pressured to deliver, but that it stays as heartfelt and true to yourself. While I understand that anger is no sustainable energy source, I think it'd be great if you continued to honestly voice frustrations, something which a lot of developer youtubers seem to sweep under the rug and dismiss indirectly.
@@JakeBastlerZ sounds like a great gig! That's excellent. The longer I do this, the more I try to enjoy those times and not try to overthink them. Congrats!!
Jayme, you mentioned working 8 hours, but some people argue that the number of hours needed for a task is pretty much dependent on that task. And as an independent programmer I feel that I continually suffer from burnout, even though I *usually* work less than 8 hours a day. The issue is that if I try harder I will not be able to work at all the next day. It's a stressful job.
But is it only me? Am I doing something wrong? Or is software dev really a very exhaustive work?
Thanks for your feedback and question. If I find myself starting to burnout it’s usually either the anxiety of trying to meet someone’s unrealistic expectations, my own unrealistic expectations for myself, or I’m not treating myself right (personal lifestyle and relationships).
I’m sure there are many different causes but not sleeping enough, diets too low in protein (or fat if doing keto), too much caffeine, and unresolved personal problems have made me feel extra exhausted when it’s not something specifically at work. That’s just been my experience.
I’m exactly like you
:) Thank you. Now after two years from when I asked the question, I'm in a much better shape. Yes, there were social life issues that got resolved eventually, but also my most profound finding was that the diet was making me feel like poop. Once I went strictly low carb, my work stamina went up to the roof, and even the mood enhanced significantly. Almost nothing else changed in my environment. I recommend taking the diet effects seriously. May I also mention that I wasn't a coffee drinker, but now I exploit the benefits of a little coffee every while and then..
Professional software developer know that you should not code for more than 4 hours a day (net). That way you never get burned out.
In my first job I had a project with moving targets and a tight budget. I ended up working 10 to 12 hours a day for one year, sometimes even weekends. I also had my band and ended up quitting. From my experience, when you are in this situation, you can only suck it up if you can survive this temporarilly, finish the project and look for another job.
I know what this is like, I had a case of crunch time for more than two months. Most weekdays was a case of working until 22:00 or later, even 02:00. Also working on weekends. The employer simply said "No need to work overtime, so there will be no overtime pay". The reality was that the deadline was not shifting because somebody promised a launch date and somebody else wanted the launch even earlier than that. In the meantime, there were a lot of issues and scope creep coming in plus the usual last minute changes.
I often get into the situation where:
1. People rely on me. I'm good at my job, and I'm needed to help sort things out; I'm usually in a senior position.
2. The project is late, like it always is. And there is pressure to finish and general business drama.
3. I've made some mistakes, for example, architectural mistakes (architecture is hard!) or written code that's problematic for whatever reason.
... those three things become a "perfect storm" of sorts and I work extra hours, and inevitably I burn out.
I always feel incredibly guilty to take time off. Time off just seems to *add more pressure*; I can't relax when I know others are working themselves to the bone. That's especially true when I feel I've made bad architectural decisions, or wrote problematic code. So inevitably that responsibility and guilt causes me to push harder and harder until I burn out.
Been at it for close to 20 years now, and I burn out once or twice a year. The most recent burnout was the worst. I couldn't work for more than a month.
Any advice you can offer? I've been coding all my life, and I don't really want to change careers. But I often think the career is a bad fit for me.
Watch my video on leading software developers better by letting go. It’s not a silver bullet (nothing is!) but some of the things I share there really helped me get to a more sustainable way of working. Hopefully there’s something of value for you in there:
th-cam.com/video/Fp5oQyNV_ws/w-d-xo.html
@@HealthyDev That sounds very promising, thank you! I'll watch it asap.
Yup... Team got reduced from 16 to 2(!) developers, plus taking care of 4 juniors on another team. Still feeling it even one year after quitting.
I've had burnout even on a voluntary job where I could take as long as I liked as the program was a gift ( a game for residents of a care home ) for others. I since learned to deal with burnout by taking a project one step at a time....in manageable chunks....rather than 'going tharn' ( a phrase from Watership Down....what happens when the rabbits get caught in headlights ) by constantly worrying about the entire project.
Just wanted to say your content is amazing! I definitely sometimes get too excited about my job and want to learn new things for work which ends up me working too many hours. You have given me lots to think about! Thank you!
I hope you will inspire the entire tech industry to see the value in healthy work life balance!
Thanks Patrik! It makes me super happy to hear this stuff is helping you. 🙏
Great content, I'm watching this in 2020. I hate companies with unhealthy overtime cultures, and you're right California has an abundance of them. I always tell other devs that working regular overtime effectively reduces one's salary and sets an unhealthy precedent. Consulting seems like a great way to go in this business or working as an independent contractor. I've found that devs often become the scapegoat for poorly managed projects.
At some point in my life I set a limit of 8 hours per day. If someone wants more then they must pay, and it'll be an overtime rate. Thankfully though around here companies also started to realise that longer hours produced lower quality work. So most, but not all, have come around to the idea that rather than trying to squeeze as many hours of work as possible out of each person they should be making sure that people aren't working long hours.
Overworking people isn't unique to software though. Especially where there is a general culture of worshipping business and believing that a business is doing someone a favour by employing them.
Worked in San Diego for 2 years and my life was my job. The competitiveness of the job market there promotes that culture of, "commit your entire life to your job or we'll find someone that will."
dude, ur videos makes me feel much better about myself
Looks like this is the most important video on this channel. Thanks Jayme!
You’re welcome. Thanks for the feedback. 👍
Every word you say is !!ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! Amazing. I love it.
I just watched your other video about working on projects in the lifecycle phase that suits you best. I think getting this wrong can also play a big part in overwhelm and burnout. I find large, complex, late cycle projects with a lot of existing processes stressful to work on, as my freedom feels restricted and I can't be creative. Whereas I see colleagues that love the lack of responsibility, clear processes, slow pace etc and are far less stressed.
Definitely. Good observations!
Very interesting and comforting input! Thanks for that. I might need to re-evaluate and concentrate more on what made me start programming in the first place.
hope all is well. Wish you were still making content! best insights on software available.
Jayme, really enjoying your stories and advice on the many topics of software development. Highly valuable content. Hope all is well with you and your family.
We’re hanging in there. Hope you’re doing well too. Thanks for the encouragement Kyle!
That answer to the company work hours is about as palatable as "unlimited pto"
I can feel you so well! I did have exactly the same experience and it was deteriorating!
Thank you for this video, and sad that I only found it recently. I currently work in infosec, and for the last few years, I've been battling burnout. On my own, I have very slowly been realizing that the source of my burnout is mostly my own doing. I love what I do and put in extra effort to push beyond my own capabilities because I love solving the puzzles. This is fine in sporadic bursts, but I've been doing this for years. It's reached the point that I've exhausted my brain so much that sometimes even simple tasks that should take me 5 minutes end up taking me hours. Work doesn't expect me to do more than 40 hours in a week, but I do it to myself. It's not sustainable, so I renegotiated my contract such that I get 3 months off per year as a way to force myself to stop working. It's helping, but recovery is a long journey as long as I continue to work in this field. I can not help myself from working too much, so I am trying to use the time off as a way to strike a balance between my obsession and my body's need for real rest. and
Crunches are how you introduce exotic bugs at the end of development.
I remember doing 12 to 14 hours a day for 8 months 6 days or 7 days a week. After that, the thought of a bug/defect and every ping got me so anxious that I would have chest pain and struggle to fall asleep or have nightmares. Luckily, after that, the project calmed down, and then there wasn't much to do for like 6 months where I just chilled but then I got bored of chilling and now left because I wanna do some work lol
Thanks Jayme, I definitely needed to see this.
I feel like I’m going crazy on this late project.. PM gets walked all over by client, client is dictating us 4 devs in regard to tasks, and I’ve been working 5 weekends in a row before we deploy to UAT on Monday.. I’m so sick of this I’m going crazy and feel unhealthy
we don't even have UAT env, from laptops straight to prod... today I said "I do not work like this anymore, I don't work weekends and nights" - managers and directors went silent. I turned off my laptop and went for a long walk.
@@Meritumas fuck it man worst case you’ll end up somewhere better, always happens.
It feels like I have prolonged burnout. Even when I go on a vacation it takes me multiple days to relax. This past one I got called while away for some problem.
Then when I got back I was paged. My anxiety creeped up again, my heart started beating faster. I'm the only one on my team that can program seriously and sometimes I'm working fing magic. I feel under appreciated like my work doesn't feel important and have impact.
I didn't feel this way at the start of my career. I'm not sure what to do honestly. I feel like I'm working myself into a stress grave.
If I were you (and I’m not, so take this with a grain of salt), I’d consider asking for an additional resource or finding a job where you’re not the only developer. I can do jobs when I’m the only developer if I have to but I’d much prefer having at least one other person who’s capable of everything I am for backup.
I burnt out at a FAANG so I quit. Best decision ever.
Did you find a better job in the software industry, or get out altogether?
as a programmer, i have had to bear all the weight of a few failed projects. i failed to estimate in some cases, but in many it was poor/shifting requirements and no help
I hear you. That's really hard. At this point in my career, I create status reports with big red flag indicators on anything blocked by bad requirements. They get circulated to leadership every week so there's no denying who's to blame if things aren't moving forward...
Jayme, do you have a vid about "working 8 hours seems like too much"? Without overtime, I barely can sustain my life. My apartment is a mess, I eat shit, I barely improve in my career because I simply don't have energy to do anything besides work. And if I don't prioritize work, I have a feeling that I am under a tight surveillance and might lose a job. Maybe I should just loose my job and stop worrying about all that mess?
Hey Mikhail I’m so sorry to hear about your struggles. I don’t have a video exactly about that, but tons of things can happen making it hard to work even 8 hours.
It sounds like something happened either at your current job or in the past that has you concerned about being let go. If you don’t feel safe, you probably need a better job but I know how easy that is for me to say since I’m not in your shoes.
I hope you find a better opportunity, or some way to trust in the future enough to lower your anxiety. Better diet, exercise, and sleep are essential for me coping with stress. But even then sometimes a situation is too toxic and I have to move on.
Hoping you have the discernment to find the best path forward and come to peace soon!
Never commit without analysing
amazing video..could totally relate to it....why do i have to burn my personal time when the management screws up in getting the requirement properly .. & Indian managers always screw up
Well we developers screw up sometimes too (we’re all human). The difference for us is we work more when we or others screw up. :/
+1 I am sick of Indian managers and directors in IT sector in US. What they do, they kiss asses all the time and broadcast a lot of BS. I am done with working for US big corpos.
when you choose a job YOU ACTUALLY CHOOSE A BOSS... believe me ... I worked for 15 years... and bosses that are too geeks shit persons will make you work like hell...so at the interview i knew it from the begining what kind of life i will have
I've now just realized that I'm burned out. We're supposed to migrate a Mainframe program yo Microservices with Spring Boot. It really sucks, we're expected to deliver analysis on pl1 code with a bunch of unknown arbitrary codes. We've already switched our product manager 2 times. I hardly understand what this service actually does. I feel dread just thinking on the job that I'll do tomorrow because I'm sure anything won't matter because there are a lot of unknown stuff we're yet to figure out.
It is a good elaboration on subject. Thank you. ☺️🙏🏻
Deciding not to work past 4 pm is probably the best decision in my career, and luckily I made it very early.
i stopped coding sine a month ago completely, and i don't know how am i going back if i could ever
I lot of it is growing a frickin spine i agree.
Lets be real, the stereotype of the nerdy cowardly socially awkward pushover actually exists.
There's so much news of crunch in the game industry and to this day there's no Video Game Dev Union.
I heard so many stories of people getting so burned out with crunch and stuff, but at what point do they stand up for themselves and say "hey man fuck your product im going home im tired and i got no work life balance whatsoever, this is inhumane, im sick and tired depressed unhappy, etc this job is not worth the sacrifice"
If you let yourself be treated like a walking carpet then the higher ups will happily do that.
All good points. It started out me just wanting to do a good job but over time there was definitely carpet walking ;) I’ve since learned better but I hope other people deal with this better from considering some of the stuff in these videos!!
@@HealthyDev Yea man agree 100%
@Gabriel Liwerant The team is not worth my health, they're just coworkers, not family.
This is not fighting a war or something, its just software.
Having to work 80 is an upper management project planning failure, why should I pay with my health and well being for their poor management.
No no no, you didn't let the team down, upper management let the team down, you're just one person who wants to be healthy and happy, and that takes priority.
@Gabriel Liwerant I understand what you're saying Gabriel, but I guess I got to a point where I won't let others' inability to control themselves impact me. I've had to tell people "if you are willing to sacrifice your personal relationships for the job go for it, but I've done an honest day's work and me staying here longer isn't going to make a big enough difference to get us out of this hole through sheer will. We need to work smarter and not harder". If they can't see that, they can be disappointed with me. I don't see any reason to let people who can't set boundaries influence how I feel about myself.
@Gabriel Liwerant thanks, I appreciate your feedback too - it helps me understand what people are up against from multiple angles. Good insights!
Half our team is in India, so I constantly have to take meetings 7:30-9pm at night. That alone has been draining. But what if my manager considers every day crunch time? 1 day late is considered failure. Good code, ahead of release, but a week later than promised = shitty code worthy of disappointment.
Sadly I don’t think software is a good career for people who want to have a family, hobbies, and friends. It is a career only for earning as much money as possible when you’re young, before you burnout. Companies prefer to hire younger and less experienced employees because they know they can get 60+ works out of them.
I needed to hear this
Phone interview? Wouldn't give them the time of day!
I started a software internship this summer. The company has a good work culture. They only ever expect 40 hrs per week and they don't care when you do them. They also have a flat hierarchy, so pretty much everyone is a delevoper and even project managers and tech leads are working on their own parts of the code. The only issue is that I'm completely disinterested and disengaged from the project at hand. The project has a 20 year old c++ codebase, and most of the time I'm just sifting through the code trying to fix some bug I assigned myself to while hardly understanding any of the established architecture or practices. I basically spend the entire day staring at this stuff and maybe pushing 3 lines or so of code fixing some bug after several hours of staring at a screen. I'm constantly exhausted and 8 hours feels like an enormous drag even though it's supposed to be the "normal hours". I'm working on a side project for college this fall that I'm much more passionate about, but I end up coming home exhausted and only able to work on it for like an hour max. I can't imagine working 60-90 hours per week.
Excellent content thank you
I'm surprised you didn't move to Minneapolis, from Wisconsin.
Why’s that?
@@HealthyDev because of all the tech in MPLS
Ah. Yeah I wanted warmer weather for one thing, so that took Minneapolis off the list. I have friends who live there and love it though, sounds cool.
My scrum master does not trust she has two other developers who give her too optimistic answers they r weak technically and they dont give realistic estimates so she hates me
Dude this is real I know what you’re talking about
Been grinding the past year and a half since graduation and feel burnt out at times but being a new dev I feel like if I say it out loud it'll be looked down upon because of the fact I've only been coding for a year and a half. Thoughts on this mindset?
When you say out loud where - amongst colleagues at a company etc?
@@HealthyDev just in general. The thought of someone being a dev for only a year now and already feeling burnt out.
@@GorillaDev417 I can understand it, I don't think there's anything wrong. It's a tough job. Honestly (this is just my opinion), one of the best things you can do for yourself is to accept that this job will always have things you aren't good at since we learn all the time. You'll get better the more you're exposed to, but feeling out of your league isn't a bad thing - it's just normal in this profession. Hang in there!
Sometimes team members, as in other software engineers, may not like your refusal to work beyond 8 hours and get you PIPed
If my coworkers' inability to set healthy boundaries for work/life balance actually result in a threat to my employment, they are just as toxic as a micromanager. Get out!
i never had crunch time
It’s definitely them
Company burning you out... when you work like hell and don't increase your pay...and you asked yourself what a fuck... and then you apply to other companies and you ask for more money and they reject you because you asked too much money ..: ((
90% depends who is your boss.. if he is a workholic fucked up guy... expect that he will force you to work like helll.. if your boss is not so skillfull a little bit idiot than what you do seems amazing to him either you think is peanuts:)))
It's them, it's always them. I don't even need to watch the video.
It is ok to work 10h a day. People are getting too soft. What is not ok is not to be paid enough for the hard work.
It's not ok work 10h a day... unless you have nothing else to do in your life
I have not seen anybody being able to perform well after 3 intensive days. I typically find myself having brain fart, hating my job and tend to avoid doing the task because of my body and mind are too tired and need a change. After rest (a weekend, for example), it typically takes moments to solve what has been taking hours on a tired brain.
If your'e not writing code or solving problems 10 -12 hours a day you'd better be skilling up and certing in your free time. You may reach a good spot someday, but it won't last long.
Is this sarcastic? That’s the worst advice I’ve ever heard for a sustainable career.