The fact that Mark is saying his family is most important to him, so he's rather watch them DIE than watch them live happy lives without him is the most backwards shit I've ever heard😂
The reason attack on titan might not do well in the past would be do to the form in which tv and anime was consumed back then. You can’t stumble into a random episode of attack on titan on tv and be easily hooked. It was hard to be able to find whole shows and seasons outside of theirs tv slotted times. That’s why a simpler plot like dragon ball z worked because if someone randomly watched an episode it wouldn’t be too hard to understand what’s going on and therefore make you more likely to pick the show up from there.
I believe there can be exceptions to this, however I honestly think ur right. Just going off of my own personal experience sometimes just being able to jump into things and still get what’s going on usually is more enjoyable. There are times where I’ve watched shows with advance overarching stories however, and sometimes I can get hooked on the plot of that episode. Enough so where I eventually become interested in the show. But asides from that u make a very good point
Not to mention that seasonal anime was FAR less common back then. If you got an anime, it just ran until it was over, so AoT would have a TON of filler since it’s monthly and therefore produces less content on average (page count) than an average weekly manga produces.
This is where the Golden Age of TV came in, like in the 90s it was mostly random adventures (Hercules and Xena are good examples).. I remember when it was all the hype to come home for a weekly show.. Heroes comes to mind.. But now when I watch a series I need long format and it to be serialised. I hate random episode stuff now haha
@@Eli-akad I do agree that you can get hooked or enticed by advanced stories like attack on titan but trying to find its entire media after is a harder task to accomplish in the past compared to now. If it was in the current day then surely you can get hooked and easily go find the show and start from the beginning instantly while comparatively in the past you would have to go searching for physical copies that could take weeks or months.
Can’t lie DB is the WWE of anime. Came up in an era where it’s field wasn’t mainstream, pioneered its industry forward, became the representative of its genre, and many who watch it after it’s golden age don’t get why it’s so popular. You had to be there
@jzagg9362 More like you can’t appreciate the story because you can’t place yourself of what it was like to watch db in it’s golden age with no outside knowledge but aight bro
@jzagg9362 You keep mentioning nostalgia bias, as if it’s impossible for people to genuinely believe db is one of the goats without nostalgia playing a factor. If that’s your view bro, that’s hella cynical. And you mention ‘better’ anime, as if we don’t all mostly use our own subjective metric to qualify what makes anime, a subjective medium, good and bad. If you’re talking about preference, aight, but that ain’t an objective measure for quality.
@jzagg9362 Aot literally had nothing to do with this comment thread till you brought it up just now. It was about a parallel between WWE and db. And case in point, none of the qualities you mentioned can be measured objectively. After a certain level, they all get determined by preference. Someone could just as well argue those are things db has over aot. And you missed my point about your claim of nostalgia bias. You act as if without nostalgia playing a factor, people wouldn’t view db as a goated show, even though db is beloved by western and eastern cultures alike across several generations. Writing off the reason for db’s popularity and longevity as one of the goats as nostalgia bias is, again, cynical, as well as reductive. It’s pretty evident the core concept has a mass appeal. If anything, i’d say more people underrate it than overrate it, sorta like you did lol
Season 1 and 2 of attack on titan are some of the best anime highlights of the decade. It hits a lot harder never reading the manga not getting spoiled. Trying to solve the mystery in your head of how the Titan thing started. I was falling off watching anime around the time when naruto and bleach ended. But AOT was one series that brought me back.
@@thetruesquad5059 BRO it hit so different but honestly I will say this as well part 1 of season 3 is a little slept on imo because that's where they started cooking and revealing more of the titan abilities and I really enjoyed
Also to John's point about AoT possibly not shining in the 80s and 90s is actually valid. Cowboy Bebop and NGE are heralded is masterpieces yet during their time they were outshined by the typical Shonen battle anime. Those weren't the animes that made anime mainstream in America. Those were Pokémon, DB, Sailormoon, YuYu Hakusho etc. It's more likely AoT would be NGE back in DBZ era rather than it being more popular than DBZ
A simple demon slayer speed feat that was overlooked about rengoku: if you watched the mugen train arc (series Not movie) at the very beginning there was a demon covering cities in seconds on a killing spree and rengoku ran him down and cut him down (with the demon having a huge head start) before it could kill that girl and old lady
rengoku is far faster but the colosal titan is a literal nuke that will instantly kill rengoku The war hammer titan can be piloted from afar making it a constant threat rengoku has to avoid leaving him no time to for a break at any point He has no way of knowing to go for the nape so the fight will drag on and any hit from the titans will permanently impair rengoku The founder can make more titans appear and the assault titan has precognition so they will be aware of what they are going to fight and they can easily make a plan (with the colosal titan as the win condition)
The toys in Dressrosa couldn't "just leave" they were under Sugar's contract Kyros was the first toy in Dressrosa that's and sugar forgot to do the contract thats why he was able to move freely
Not only that doflamingo took all the money from the civilians and had king Riku, the beloved king of the country nicest guy ever and have him kill the civilians. That gave him the money.
Nah yea and they was like that for 10 years. Idk it’s close bc Wano def got hoed but idk if I could live as a toy slave for 10 years w no hope of ever going back😭
1:03:00 John is right when he says people weren’t looking for those kind of stories at the time. And I have one anime to prove it that made a huge comeback in recent times and is widely loved. DevilMan Crybaby was an anime that came out in the 80’s (yes late 80’s for those who really know) but the story always had substance to it just not the eyes. When DevilMan made a return it was huge and people were really regarding the series as one of the best not knowing it’s based on a story from the 80’s scene. I get John is bad at bringing up examples in a lot tf this video but he was 100% correct that people back in the day weren’t looking for stuff this deep diving. Devil man is a story that was overlooked cause people didn’t really care or didn’t see the message of the show but now all of a sudden the younger people who watched the Netflix version understand the story better than those who overlooked it in the past. Timing means a lot when it comes to what’s going to be popular or widely loved by the public. Also DBZ had good writing when it came to Raditz and the Saiyan saga if you went from Og Dragon Ball to Z. It was a major twist that Goku was an alien and now he has a brother that wants to dominate everything for their race and he doesn’t have that sense of attachment at all. Then finding out he can turn into a super saiyan and the ozaru form wasn’t the only thing he got from being an alien was fucking mind blowing. I think the problem is really due to when these shows came out. Cause a lot of these arguments wouldn’t be made if things came out at different times. Like let’s be real here if DBZ came out in 2023 with updated animations and no filler would go hard af. If it jumped straight to each saga no one would be saying “it moves slow.” This id the problem I’m talking about when it comes out. If JjK was coming out at the same time DB or DBZ came out it would be filled with filler and be considered good for certain qualities yet hated for others.
It's crazy how they're not even involving the first 195 chapters of Dragon Ball in the discussion, not to mention them not even watching Z in a long time and barely remember anything. Even then, using pacing as a point means nothing when KAI solves said problems. What bugs me the most is them talking about fist of the north star, calling it boring and that it had bad writing without expanding on why to then move on. I would bet everything that they barely even saw anything enough to say that 💀
Sure devil man cry baby got some traction, but it never jumped that big in popularity. To put it plainly in the last decade no one has put Devil man crybaby was in anyone’s top 10 list in anime. Its story is just alright, and that’s why even though it got some appreciation it never jumped up to anyone’s top 10. So even if he brought up an example of DMC it wouldn’t be a good point because DMC story didn’t actually get a big jump in popularity.
@@MinhPham-ff4jc you kind of get what I was saying but I think you might be slightly off by what I meant. I was saying that in John’s argument which is correct to a degree “if attack on titan came out earlier that it probably wouldn’t be as heavily revered as it is since it came out now.” My example of DMC was just an example of a show that came out originally at the wrong time and didn’t get nearly the recognition it got after Netflix did their rendition not that it’s anyone’s top 10 (that’s a hard thing to do for a show with like 12 or so episodes I think). You are correct though it’s not common at all for people to say DMC is in their top 10 and even i would be shocked if someone said it’s number 1. Like don’t get me wrong either I love Attack on Titan but I think part of the reason it’s so popular is because it both had a compelling story at the right time for the audiences to watch and it was just amazing in general. We live at a time where anime is liked widely and isn’t seen as weird like how it used to be and people are looking for the deeper meanings in shows to a degree so I think Atot has perfect timing that’s all I’m saying. I still like DMC but it’s not in my top 10 maybe 15-20 but definitely not 10.
Attack on titan going down as one of the GOATS man even with the subjective ending, how did Isayama cover that COMPLEX ass story into a boy who just wanted to kill all the titans. One of a kind plot. Keep grinding RDC!
Finished Manga Top 5 Anime: FMA, Death Note, Gintama, Naruto, AOT @BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy I think AOT definitely broke through but could be replaced in the future when HxH and One Piece finish out.
I feel the AOT vs DBZ argument is tough to do because they're from completely different time periods where the standards of what is amazing were different. DBZ innovated a bunch of what modern anime take from today and you can see all of Goku's grandchildren and great grandchildren running around. The way the villains and characters like Future Trunks were handled was amazing and they were all unique and distinct both from each other and from other characters existing in the landscape at the time. I think the same way DBZ wouldn't beat AOT if it came out during the 2010s, AOT wouldn't beat DBZ if it came out in the last 80s and early 90s. The landscape was simply different for what folks were interested in reading.
If attack on Titan came out in the 80s or '90s, it definitely would have blended in to other animes of its time. It will probably have that same darker tones like Gundam, ghost in the Shell, Akira, Appleseed. A lot of modern day animes have really gotten away from Mecha, robot, space, post-apocalyptic kind of vibes
@fattygamer94 bruh I never thought of it like that after all these years 😂 AOT is a mecha anime. It's literally a "Modern" Gundam (I know they still make Gundam series).
You one of the few niggas that understand future trunks saga through dbz and super alone already secure dragonball as some of the best anime story writing ever… his ssj rage in dbs, future gohan and the androids killing him etc all that shit is amazing if you think more deeply…. Trunks is a half breed with more potential than normal saiyans and he’s had an entire life of trauma and intense battles from androids to zamasu the cheese lord god enemy narcissistic mf lol… time travel and time rings etc handled perfectly… such an apocalyptic scenario akira toriyama held it down fr on that entire storyline over the decades
@@zqShadowMonarch You got me with that one, I woulda been sent to the factories quick. That life would suck. But in the general aspect the line is facts tho.
For Wano vs Dressrosa it really between "Would you rather suffer with your family or have your family be happy but forget your existence" Quite frankly if I was a dude with a wife and kids, I rather be forgotten than have them suffer in Wano.
its a sefless decision to suffer for the ones you love if i had the decision to be a toy and my family can a have a decent quality of life and they not remember me vs my family slowing deteriorating in front of my eyes and i cant even cry abt it im forsure makin that sacrifice and becoming a toy 😅
@@zqShadowMonarch Exactly, idk why people thinking you can suffer with your family when half of them gonna be enslaved and working in a factory and the other half are gonna die by starvation or orochi/kaido. Tama was literally an oprhan.
@@taahanajam8634 I’m saying! Most of wano population is gone. What’s left is enslaved or starving to death or forced to work for nothing and fead smile fruits. And to work to please orochi
I’ve just finished AOT and when I tell you it’s such a beautiful story… I waited so long to watch it because for some reason at first I thought it was slow and didn’t give it a chance but now it’s easily top 5 favorite if not top 3…
I get John’s point about AOT MAYBE not being as popular if it came out earlier. It reminds me of horror movies and how now people like “elevated” horror as opposed to slasher films. That’s why a lot of media are cult classics-they find their audience later even though they were good when they came out.
I ageee with John cuz all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
Slasher films are just BAD now, that's why they aren't liked as much. Halloween is still a classic that has aged well, Alien is still a classic that has aged well, Scream series is still going strongly. If Friday the 13th came out today, it would never have become the cult classic that it is...and that's true of majority of slasher flicks, but some told good enough stories to stand the test of time.
his point sounds so dumb. If aot came out back in the it would be still be the same. It wouldnt change the fact that aot had an amazing overall story and fitting ending. That whole argument bout not finding the audience target so stupid. Youre basically saying that if fma came out back in the day they wouldnt have the same impact and great story just cause its not shounen like dbz and other shit. Making it sound like people was only looking for shounen back then. No. DBZ is as big as it is today was because the story gripped us enough to watch everytime a new episode came out. and his whole argument basically saying aot not as gripping? WHAT?!? If anything. If aot came out and finished back in the day. it would MAYBE have more "impact" than dbz. Also. that point about elevated horror is irrelevant. That shit do not matter. It's literally just about how the story gets you hooked. Yall making it sound like you sit to watch a show because you already know what youre getting out of it. TF. Im pretty sure people sit to watch because they are looking for something new to watch. Not knowing what theyre getting out of it. That whole audience target do not matter. Especially if we talking anime. Dylan's points hit and I feel like John just arguing out of biased. And with his point he basically saying that if dbz came out now. It would be mid because people not looking for that kind of shit. Which is why he bringing in that whole "inspiration" argument saying that dbz better cause it was the first to come out. He literally just debunked his earlier argument with that "if aot came out back in the day" point. All I got from that argument was him yapping. and also, why he tryna bring in that "target audience" when they just talking about the anime as whole (story, character, pacing)... Whole argument about reaching the targeted audience actually just sounds extra stupid. With that point... Then Evagelion, akira, trigun, and or almost every anime that came out back then would be called mid with the story and everything they got because people was only looking for shows like DBZ?!?!??? what.
@@vialize exactly this...the great anime today would still be great, or even greater actually if they came out in the past, same can't be said though of some anime in the past if they came out today. DBZ would not compete with Kimetsu no Yaiba, Jujutsu Kaisen, Boku no Academia, Castlevania, Shingeki no Kyojin and others if it came out today...it came out at the perfect time for it to make its mark.
The thing that pissed me off the most about Arya killing the night king is that he had nothing to do with her story. Think about it. Name one scene, before season 8, where someone even said the word night king or white walker and Arya was in the scene. Meanwhile after Jon befriended the wildings the night king became his main villain. Jon is the one who brought the people together to fight him. Even worse, it was Brans entire story. The night king should have either died fighting Jon or Bran should have did so 3 eyed raven bull to kill him. Aryas big moment should have been killing Cersei. She was the last one on Aryas list and it would have been a more satisfying death then Cersei dying from falling rocks. I’m not even gonna talk about Jamie and Dany.
@@donchinago3566 Did u not watch the video. They were talking about how Game of Thrones ending sucked and I gave my two cents about why I felt it sucked as well.
Facts man. They threw away all that whole build up for so many of the MAIN characters. Wasted so much damn time setting they character arcs up, and it drags down so much of the show along with it unlike other stories with bad/mediocre endings
@@humanoidfrog4645 armin took on Bertolt for a while before he scorched completely, surely a Hashira trained to fight demons with far greater abilities could within the heat.
@@Snaggywon hashira are regular humans using techniques to enhance their muscles. At the end of the day they're still normal people. One sword through the body and the mist hashira instantly died. Levi has a bigger chance of beating THE 9 titans (intelligence, skills and all) than most of the hashira do. I finished both demon slayer and aot and the hashira would be wiped if they didn't fight the last 4 strongest demons one by one. EXPERTISE is the most important skill in aot and that's why new scouts died easily and later in their carrier they barely die.
@@humanoidfrog4645 Hashira would die in the same way Levi would because ofc are humans there’s no argument there but clearly those in demon slayer are far more durable and could bang toe to toe with a few (if not all) of the titans. And don’t act like Hashira aren’t intelligent enough to deal with demons that have been killing for millennia. Lastly let’s not forget majority of the titans understands how ODM gears work and can plan for it if they’re working together. Fighting a Hashira with no prior knowledge that uses several abilities that enhances their swordsmanship should not be overlooked imo.
@@Snaggywon hashira are not killing titans from the ground up without knowing what the titans are. Hashira usually die very young and gang up on demons to beat them. 4-5 hashira is equal to upper moon 1 so that says enough about their power level. Hashira die to fire especially a nuke from armin
Ngl saying that people only like something purely for nostalgia is a really lazy criticism. Are you saying it's poorly written or boring? You're just stating that people liked it way back when lol. People often leave it at "nostalgia bias" and that's it really.
@@MachinaOwl I think you’re kinda missing the context of the video if you’re saying something like that. They literally broke down the nostalgia bias and what it actually means. For reference, a show like dbz which is relatively boring and especially poorly written in a lot of places, is carried immensely by nostalgia and impact. Two things that have no place in any kind of legitimate ranking of quality.
DBZ story and world building is actually crazy if you look back at where it started in Dragon Ball. The fact that Toriyama took it from a adventure story then built on strings like the Ozaru, the fact that piccolo and kami, and red ribbon army, and expanded that to the saiyan arc, namek arc, the android arc, and all of the kai shit building into the Buu arc really shows a huge amount of world building from previously mysterious and small story points that should be respected. If anything, the characters are 1D compared to today as far as the writing, but the fact that you come to like the characters and point to them as one of the main reasons it is great regardless of the rest of the story shows how far you can go with simple characters and a huge scope for conflict points.
Dbz has very little world building. Y’all have bout 4 different spin offs which one of them had nothing to do with the main story. Dragon balls build ups are legit new sayiain or fusions and the obvious villain. And the fights are legit somehow I’m going to be stronger than you in the middle of this fight with no explanation as to why other than plot armor. If we talking about story and world building dbz is definitely not it and there is nothing wrong with that because dbz would still be in my top 5 because without it most these other anime’s won’t exist
@@Agent_Apostle Maybe watch the show and don’t let someone else’s opinion dictate your own. Fusions have shown up a total of 3 times in the canon story and the only surviving “new saiyan”is Broly.
@@why2947 I did watch the show lmao I put dbz in my top 5 all time dbz doesn’t compare to other anime’s story wise if you think that then that’s your opinion but in my opinion dbz doesn’t come close to these other anime’s as far as story and world building. Their opinion ain’t my opinion it’s my opinion I watched every dbz series including gt
As someone who grew up on the og Funimation dub and havent seen any other since, once I read the manga a lot of my problems with dbz story were quelled. The dialogue and pacing makes so much more sense in Toryiamas manga.
AOT is top 5 in my opinion. Obviously it’s a subjective list but the storyline and world building is one of the best out of any show including anime’s. Let’s remember that AOT holds the 2,4, and 5 spot for most watch tv episodes of all time. The only show that is in front of them is breaking bad.
It’s top-five for me too bro 😎 but I’ve been seeing a lot of hate for attack on Titan the treated like it’s trash now for some reason if not trash, they give it the death note treatment go to the reaction a Videos on the final episode it’s just people comments filled with hate.
@@TRJ42AOT tackles social issues in ways most anime don’t even get close, people will never agree on it regardless of whether it’s objectively bad or not.
Great convo! I disagree that no part of DBZ is written well. I think the idea that complexity = quality is a modern notion that shortchanges older shows. I think Gohan's arc is extremely well written. DBZ's style is just more character-focused with simple plots which was the style of the time. I've been going back to watch older anime, and it's honestly refreshing to see a different style of storytelling that focuses more on emotional truths than building a (albeit cool) house of cards.
Yep. Simplicity can beat complexity depending on execution. And thats EXACTLY why demon sIayers story aint as ba d as ppI say. PpI love to say all it has is animation. No it has a story too. A simple story. Ive been arguing this for awhile and its so cool seeing others wake up to that.
I think a big flaw with the Hashiras is the material given on their stamina. In both the demon-slayer manga and anime, they highlight several times where the demons are able to win a war of attrition (Rengoku as an example). I don't necessarily know if a Hashira could sustain the output to killing nine core titans. I personally believe they are capable of killing each one individually, but I don't know if they can last long enough to sustain.
Like bro, everyone on the AoT side was arguing null points , tf was they bringing up the Jaw, Female, Armored,Beast and Warhammer for? They get negged by S2 Tanjiro imo, the real argument they shoulda brought up was the colossal and founding, who would literally out class and negg everyone from the DS verse, Muzan and Yoriichi included Like care to explain to me how Muzan or Yoriichi survive a fire ball that's 1000x hotter than the surface of the sun, and that reduces any form of matter down to it's subatomic particles, expands at 80% the speed of light, and covers a 5 mile radius
@@thecraze4853 im ngl you cookin so for the mere fact of wanting an explanation how do you think the hashiras would win or rather how would the titans lose?
@@palooski227 if we take the two top dogs out ( the founder and Colossal) The hashira would win because of their speed and their swords , if you remember Tanjiro in Season 1 cut a boulder in half and his sword didn't even have a scratch on it, S1 Tanjiro wasn't remotely close to even the weakest hashira, and the blades strength scales with with the strength and skill of it's user, so I can almost guarantee you their swords would go through Titan hardening, now if we assume they have no information on each other, that Titans might win purely from attrition, but if we assume otherwise, it's GG for the Attack, Beast, Female, Armored, Warhammer, Jaw and cart, they would simply run up to the nape cut them out and take off their head The Colossal like I said transforms with a Nuke, .....so I'm sorry if it's a fight even with Muzan, the MF would have to be over 5 miles away to not get Thanosed by the Nukes fireball, which doesn't make any sense For the founding...... it's the colossal, Plus all the other 7.....just on mad steroids, assuming the founding has full backing from Ymir ofc, it can spawn infinite Titans, hell it could spawn past colossal setting off multiple nukes, so no chance against that thing.
I don't think they give Akira Toriyama enough credit. up until the Buu saga, it was written really well with an extensive lore (power levels, techniques, alien races, transformations, etc... shit that fuels discussions to this day). it didn't focus on dark or political themes like AoT, but that doesn't mean it was bad or inferior.
Exactly that part of the video was getting me annoyed lol it seemed like they watch dbz but really haven’t paid attention to dbz. I love Rdcworld1 but when it came to the dbz section they we’re wrong about some things in my opinion.
They don’t give him credit cause a lot of people ain’t watch OG dragon ball, where majority of the cast played a role unlike in later DBZ (mostly everything after the frieza arc)
I agree with you bro, they really try to downplay DBZ, just because it’s not as complex they already deem it as not well written when it’s actually a well written simple story. And I think that plays into what John was saying about AOT not being as successful if it came out during the DBZ time because the anime landscape was not what it is today so the audience and interest for AOT would already be limited. That’s why I believe DBZ actually has the better story for that time to mainstream anime like it did.
Reason that AoT is a top 5 show is because EVERY SINGLE EPISODE MATTERS. No filler, no huge, episode long flashbacks, there is constantly something happening in each episode that has you connecting dots and asking questions, or just flat out amazed at the spectacle.
Ngl I kinda agree with John. I feel like if Attack on Titan came out in the 80’s or 90’s it would become a cult classic like Berserk. The violence makes me think that it would limit the audience but who knows as OG dragon ball was actually quite bloody
I ageee with John too cuz all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
@@greeneyegamerguy6007 this is super valid. it's crazy how much they fucked over goku's character in particular, but super was literally just one big ass nostalgia trip to make more money. more transformations! repeat the iconic moments from dbz! just trash. not even gonna get into how stupid every character looks now (just look at the freaking hair!)
Yea people get mad but its really just Boruto for DBZ. People blame the shows for being mid but instead of just letting things end theyre like ok but how much money to bring it back and then get mad when its not the same tier of the original. Sure you get some cool scenes and ideas but to think the story is gonna hold up to the passion of the orginals is honestly an unfair comparison@@TheRulersBack18
I feel up until new era-2010s, there was an emphasis on weekly serialized manga release and managaka’s really had to frame and pace the story alongside this sales method to ensure the anime would pick up and flow accordingly. Nowadays with anime only streaming services people consume anime at a much quicker pace and sometimes disregard the manga entirely. Newer series are condensed with less fluff as they don’t need to survive on the old sales model as series like DB/DBZ did. Side-note: I nominate Neon Genesis for old school anime impactful and well written
Well said. That’s a really good point. DBZ had to survive weekly as a show so naturally they needed to drag things out a bit more. I also get the points Dylan was making…but every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto yet he still had Naruto above AoT somehow. Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it. For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes 1. DBZ 2. Gundam Wing 3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them) 4. Fate Zero 5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either) If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit 1. Attack on Titan 2. FMA Brotherhood 3. Fate Zero 4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo 5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass, NGE (original or Rebuild movies), and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well. I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard. I would also throw Ghost in the shell along side NGE for the point u made. Well written, probably one of the greatest animation spectacles when you consider the time it came out…and the Impact, while it wasn’t as large as DBZ, it still had a massive impact on the Sci-fi/futuristic/cyberpunk genre in all of media, not just anime. The fuckin matrix took inspiration from Ghost in the Shell. That hoe inspired a lot of shit.
Titans are getting cooked quickly by the hashira, especially if they know the nape weakness, which they could find out easily since they are already trained to do so with demons
@@rightguy200000 spoiler for final parts of AOT Hange was able to kill a few of the rumbling colossal titans before burning up and we all know for sure how much quicker and stronger hashira are then hange
They forgot to mention most of the toys in Dressrosa were forced into slave labor and had no control over their bodies. And they can still feel fatigue and their constant whoopings
DBZs Impact is so much more important than it’s given credit for. The rival dynamic The evil villain turned good archetype Transformations/power ups Sensei dynamic TOURNAMENT ARCS Dbz is the blueprint for so many shows
@@simpletora7313it’s really not go back and really watch the Namek and Cell Saga. The focus of Dragon Ball is the characters and their dynamics with each other
@@dsmith231 I have. Post saiyan saga though the show just gets so bad to me. Maybe it’s because DBZ wasn’t my first anime and I had gotten used to all the cliche tropes (that I know DBZ basically created) and maybe that has a big impact but I can’t watch DB anything without facepalming about how stupid the characters and their motivations are in every single issue
@simpletora7313 you should check out Totally Not Mark's videos on dbz. He'll put things better than I ever could. If you ever find yourself bored one day.
John is deffo right about the fact that Attack on Titan wouldn’t be popping back then the way it is now. The main demographic of anime/manga was kids who’s main focus was fighting and cool stuff. Which makes sense why we loved DBZ/Bleach/Naruto etc. Us growing up made us realize the amazing writing and faults in the likes of One Piece/Naruto etc. Also us growing up with anime and maturing opened us up to more mature series like Death Note/Code Geass. Which brings us all the way to Attack on Titan which aligns with our age and what story the author is trying to tell us! The opposing ideologies, racism, the complexity of humanity etc. The point John is making is that a series of Attack on titans magnitude would go over our heads if it came out when we were that young! Many would go back and watch it as they grew up but it still wouldn’t be as big as it is now. Examples who fit this would be 20th century boys and Monster. Two spectacularly written manga but came out in a era were most anime watchers was young kids who would rather watch straight fighting
Well said, if aot came out back in the day most people wouldn’t have even seen it cause of it’s hiatuses, not to mention shit wasn’t on demand so it would be very hard for you to keep track of it, let alone gain new fans.
I agree wholeheartedly. Another thing against Dylan’s argument is that every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto, but yet he still had Naruto in his top 5 (above AoT). Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 (still one of my favorites) if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it. For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes 1. DBZ 2. Gundam Wing 3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them) 4. Fate Zero 5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either) If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit 1. Attack on Titan 2. FMA Brotherhood 3. Fate Zero 4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo 5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well. I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard
I think influence (how a show/film affected other anime and the genre) AND impact (how it resonated emotionally) should be judged alongside foundational factors like story, worldbuilding, characters, and animation. That way, classic anime aren’t disregarded because of the genre’s natural progression and new anime can still assert themselves as GOATs as well. Regardless of your top five, it’s just great to love anime and share that with other people. What a time to be an anime fan!
@@Stunt877 Yeah, I’m saying people should consider a combination of factors instead of just one. That way, it’s more balanced. Also, I wouldn’t say being first guarantees influence. A show could’ve come before and had no influence on what came later. And both new and older anime can have a huge impact on people.
I 100% agree with your take. I get the points Dylan was making…but every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto yet that was still above AoT on his list. Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it. For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes 1. DBZ 2. Gundam Wing 3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them) 4. Fate Zero 5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either) If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit 1. Attack on Titan 2. FMA Brotherhood 3. Fate Zero 4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo 5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well. I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard
Attack on Titan IMO is the only anime to supersede the genre and reach out to other audiences. It’s a legendary anime that will be the staple for other anime to inspire to be in terms of everything. It will talked about for decades to come. OST Animation Story Characters Twists Messages Mappa & WIT & Iseyama created something truly special.
How did it supersede the genre and what genre would it be anyways (unless you mean anime then you’re using supersede wrong). Both of those are genuine questions
@@AreYouFNQRAZIIobviously there’s good anime out there, but 99% don’t do or reach the peaks of attack on Titan. That’s why attack on Titan is legendary and other “good anime” that aren’t getting the same “attention”…
Haven’t watched one piece in awhile, but i think these are correct if my memory serves right -u don’t randomly get turned into a toy in dressrosa it’s usually done if you disobey -after you’re reverted back to human everyone gets their memories of you back, but in wano after you eat the smile fruit you can’t go back
Yeah and one of the worst drawbacks of Sugar's power is even SHE forgets the people she's turned into toys, so if she does it to an ally, she won't even remember to undo it.
Yea but only some of the population had a possibility of being affected in wano most of the population was living lavishly. Also don’t forget you had a chance of getting your child sent to punk hazard to be experimented on
And it makes sense for Jean to be with Mikasa. It was forshadowed in his character intro. He was crushing on Mikasa. And kept fixating on her and admitedly jealous of eren. Its on the page. It made sense.
@@YALLDONTNEEDTOKNOWThat’s like saying you can’t miss and love your dead wife and still be able to love your current wife. It literally happens all the time in real life. It’s perfectly fine that she can miss Eren and love her husband Jean at the same time.
Their size makes them cover distance faster too. If I ran 10 mph and i upscaled myself to 4 meters, now i cover wayyy more distance in that same timeframe just from the size increase.
Can we all agree that the ODM gear made them fast to get from point A to point B. A hashira could face the nine titans cuz they aren't fast. But lets not act like them ODM gears wasn't a necessity for them to fight. Edit: If Momonosuke and the Nine Kazuki had to time travel 20 years into the future to develop a plan to raid Kaido and take back their country, i think Wano had it worst.
@@dewdadream odm gear is different from just speed it lets them travel in any direction mid travel e.g. if rengoku jumps in a straight line he cant turn right instantly while keeping all momentum
Vinland Saga has one of the best stories I’ve watched it really gave me that Aot vibes from characters ,plot , Fights. Thorfinn characters development of a true struggle of a Warrior trying to find Peace and Repent for his Sins Amazing so far
Respect Dylan standing on his opinion that people only put DBZ in their all time Top 5 because of nostalgia, but let's be clear without Dragonball modern anime doesn't exist as it does today. Its impact alone solidifies it's legacy as an all time Top 5 anime.
Dylan has BEEN hating bro There was a whole 15 mins on stream of him saying dbz is carried by nostalgia not understanding it was written that way cuz of when it came out, now the media is different and there is a lot more to work off of, like bruh 🤦
People love to say just off nostalgia, me being a fan of so much anime I love dbz because of the story, the characters , and how much characters like Vegeta and Piccolo have grown since Dragon Ball and Z to now Super.
@@thetruesquad5059not hating it's facts like it's just hard to compare because as a generation we upgrade so you can't really compare as ur dragon ball z came out now with peoples attention span ... I have my life on majority not making pass season 2 they fought for episodessss with Frieza
If it wasn't dragon ball would be another , you got many old ass shounens out there that did good , Japan doesn't lack genius people when it comes to writing manga.
Dragon Ball wouldn't have stood out as much if it came out today but it'd be the same for AOT if it came out back in the 80s/90s when dark and gritty anime were the norm. It also helped AOT that mecha genre fell off because everything it does, shows like Gundam, Evangelion Code Geass, and Gurren Lagann did first.
I honestly think that last question is impossible to answer because every person goes into watching an anime looking for different things because if u want a good story u can go for shows like aot,monster,code geass etc but if u go into a show looking for fights and transformation you will obviously like dbz, bleach, naruto and shows like that more.
It’s definitely a bias question cause anybody can say their personal fav anime but I think dragonball as whole is just different on a level even without nostalgia really
@@r..e7045I know it's your opinion but come on now. You cannot rewatch dbz today and say it is amazing without nostalgia. Or maybe, I am just hating. I don't even know anymore
@@r..e7045and you are buggin, if you put someone fresh on to anime and have them watch both, 10/10 people over the age of like 13 going to rate AoT way higher
@@qriz5 no there not that’s just you be basis like I just stated that’s ur opinion there’s some of anime’s that better then AOT and there’s plenty that are not. The question literally revolves around favoritism’s of YOuR personal top 5😂which for me AOT is 6 or 7 on my list
Back and Forth is always so engaging but my problem is that when there’s a show that’s brought up I can’t really (mentally) participate in the convo. This ep was great tho since I’ve watched DBZ and AOT as well as most of the other shows mentioned
Do they ever mention the fact that eren lost because he wanted to lose? Mfs don’t realize that if eren didn’t have a weak spot for his friends they wouldn’t of even made it to his back let alone kill him
Easily top 3 -masterclass story telling -manga anime adaptation delivers -characters are well made -didn’t rely on typical underdog story -didn’t rely on goofy comedy -didn’t rely on big tits fan services -the anime itself aren’t that long, it’s less than 100 episode, not too short either. -it’s a dream anime set up and it delivers
@BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy I mean my favourite is naruto, it’s well liked but not on AOT level. Dragon ball z that’s just classical most overrated shit of all time. They don’t even considered that in Big 3 lmfao
@BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy I mean the characters in naruto are more likeable. And there’s funny goofy side to it. We’re talking about the whole anime here. Fillers alone hurts naruto reputation.
John probably has the best understanding of ranking. Black and white movies are being ranked as greatest of all time still to this day and they're writing was not where it is today in some places.
@@r..e7045no they wouldn’t bro. One hashira cant solo the 9 shifters. Not a single one of them will be able to survive armin transformation they fast but not that fast Nigga it takes armin seconds to transform.
We need a back and forth episode every week Ngl 💯 No one else on TH-cam actually talks about anime like y’all do… I enjoy it a lot shii I’ll actually pay for these episodes
Dragon ball z and attack on Titan are two objectively different anime that are looking to accomplish different things one story is about a savior that comes through despite all odds while the other is about people looking for a savior in the wrong person which in turn fucks them over one is allowed to be more simpler due to the premise but dragon ball z story and world building isn’t close to being as bad as you guys were saying in the video. The world of dragon ball is more expansive and complex as opposed to attack on Titan where you only saw a handful of races and only explore two countries. Attack on Titan had a more in depth story because it was a more grounded series while dragon ball z is fantasy so they are allowed to do whatever they want however because toriyama wrote his characters so well along with creating a great power system the story is still entertaining and the manga actually is developing into a great story. Also impact is important considering the fact almost all current anime draw inspiration from dbz so that means dbz did something right. Dbz is top five because it is a great show point blank period
If we’re talking most influential than Dbz should be there but we’re talking greatest all time. I feel impact shouldn’t play a factor because that to me is a lazy reason that overshadows shows that hit all the beats of a truly amazing show. I feel dbz has better characters truly like Vegeta, Piccolo, teen Gohan, future Trunks , Dbz Goku. But other than that, it can be controversial on whether story plots are good or if it’s paced well. Attack on Titans story can be nitpicked for mistakes but all the story beats are there from the very beginning and everything comes full circle from the very first episode. I really admire Isayama because he thought out the show completely and every moment is necessary in each episode , no filler really . If we’re comparing the two shows against each other, it should be AoT without a doubt objectively , but if we look at it emotionally , then I can understand completely why ppl would say DBZ. But in a true top five list, saying that impact is a factor is lazy reasoning for why dbz should be there. It can be up there, but not with that explanation.
Le and Dylan are tripping on the Titan argument Mark’s reactions to how bad these people got rugged in both arcs is hilarious I hate that I was under the influence of some Guinness and I totally spoiled the AoT ending for myself by not skipping the segment. All good my fault gentlemen Couldn’t agree more with the GoT take 100%. They had me dying “they started Covid” Solid picks for Top 5 Mine would be Z, one piece, Naruto (should’ve ended at pain and then fought Sasuke after), cowboy bebop, and Attack on Titan. In the future it’s fringy regardless of the amazing story. Great segment boys! Looking forward to the next one
I believe the demographic in 1980s, 90s would have been different. While the writing would have been good animes like Ghost in the shell, Kite, Blue Gender, Akira, Bubble Gum Crisis, Guyver, and Gundam were being put out. The market was saturated with war themes, giant battles, and dark themes. I think Attack on Titan would have found it hard to differentiate itself during that time. Also, isn't one of the reasons attack on Titans became so popular in the west was due to its initial comparison to the Walking Dead (I may be wrong on this). The time AOT and DBZ came out matters. If Dragonball came out today, it wouldn't be the dragon ball of 1980s but a completely different story to match the current standard of writing.
I think back to 2013 when attack on Titan came out and the kind of like touching portion genres that it would fit into would be Mecha, zombie-ish, thriller, survival anime. And you're absolutely right compared to animes from the '80s and '90s, there were a lot darker more mature animes that were really popular. But one thing I will say is if DBZ never came out animes these days would have gone in a different direction in terms of popularity. The martial arts, the fight scenes, moving soo fast you can't see them, the power ups, the transformers, the slight comedic relief, the "found family" values. Dragon Ball did a lot for anime's.
@fattygamer94 Absolutely agree. Actually, the Big 3 wouldn't exist. Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach were influenced in some way by either DB or Akira Toriyama himself.
I ageee with John cuz if AOT came out in 90/80s I don’t think would have been as known or even impactful as Dragoo ball. Because all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s wax 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
Agreed the formats and the direction of anime at that time were totally different would have been harder to stand out in that mix. DBZ created their mix and from that they spawned a whole genre. AOT is a Top 10 but I can’t say top 5 I’m a long time anime watcher and I’m not discrediting pass work for current work.
With the podcast era growing and being prominent rn. Idk why y’all don’t do more back and forths. I understand that coming up with ideas could be difficult but just hire someone to do that for y’all.
AoT would be my all time favorite series, something I can watch over and over again. There's no filler/no unfinished plot points/characters I love/and a super bleak and bitter sweet tone throughout it all. I've loved series such as Breaking Bad/The Boys/Sopranos/Game of Thrones/House of The Dragon/Avatar ect ect alongside a few popular animes.. But nothing has made me hold my mouth open for an entire episode/jump out of my seat/hold my hands up and get super emotional like AoT does.. This entire series just flows, every scene has meaning towards character growth or the story at hand. And it ended just perfectly, everything that was laid out before through various seasons all comes together and its just a masterpiece.
@@cdh6339 it's perfect for the story it's telling 100%. To a point where I'd give it a 10/10 for the series as a whole. I'm fully satisfied with it.. I don't get that with most series. Can you nit pick super minor details? Sure.. but you can in every piece of media.
@@cdh6339it is perfect, 10/10. Eren did what he wanted to save his love ones and keep peace for hundreds of years to come. The rumbling was the only way. Just like Doctor Strange seeing all possibilities, there was only 1 outcome and that’s what we saw. It’s a realistic ending like Isayama say. Masterpiece
You can‘t put nostalgia into the mix yet. Attack on Titan just finished but lemme tell you the way how we‘re gonna feel nostalgic when rewatching Aot in 35 years showing it our kids when they old enough finna hit HARD. So I agree with Dylan as well
Claymore came out in 2007, but Claymore is pretty much "90s AoT" and it didn't take off after Season1. You read the manga and see it is a severely underrated series, and on par with AoT in multiple aspects. The general interest isnt ever consistent. People liked different things across different points in time.
Facts Dragon Ball Z also influenced a lot of these top animes that are being released today that even other anime creators admit they were influenced by Dragon Ball Z. Akira Toriyama of Dragon ball series was and is ahead of his times.
Will add, Jean and Mikasa wasn't necessarily random, it was teased throughout the show that Jean himself had a crush on Mikasa, Mikasa just never paid him any mind cause she was tunnel vision on Eren lol
AoT will stand the test of time. Unique, engaging story, memorable as hell characters and damn near every one of them MATTERED to the story progression... and JJK shaping up to be top 5 for sure.
@@skynight4540You are bugging to say it "flopped hard" after shibuya. The most you can say is its aight or that you just dont like it. Jjk is still good after shibuya.
Yea I think DYL and a little of Mark was just trynna lowball dragonball😂 because even bezerrk a lot fans of that show think that’s one of the best anime’s written all time and it came out back then during that time
Ngl it’s not that crazy cuz he convinced me 💀. If Levi can do it there’s no reason a hashira can’t. And I think Dylan downplaying they speed heavy Rengoku was MOVING in that movie
@@tuff360 Dude it the 9 titans though it ain't the regular kind afaik there wasn't scene where levi take on all 9 of the titans; he need help to take on three of them at the same time.
What he is not understanding about DBZ is that if it would have flopped when it came to the States no other networks would have taken a risks of putting any other animes on their networks and we probably wouldn't have been introduced to any other animes. Also DBZ protagonist is used in every anime that came out after it.
DBZ wasn’t in my top 5 but damn Jon makes some good points. DBZ is the reason why we have so many good anime’s today. Transformations, power systems etc
Saying dragon ball pacing is terrible but loving one piece is crazy to me when they have the longest arcs in anime then saying the story is trash but Naruto’s is good when they are damn near the same a goofy main character who main goal is just to be strong to get respect with a best friend who’s on the fence of good and evil and both lost their whole race and the the MC learns from someone respected n known by everyone but the MC in both shows the 2 MCs end up with a girl who fit perfectly with the other MC it’s so much more similarities bro it makes no since to say that it’s writing isn’t good as the other shows and not only that in the ending of shippuden vs super’s super has way more potential even though boruto is cool and has potential supers ending literally gave a option for them to have more universal conflict and we haven’t even seen all the sayin kids full potential yet the only problem is that dragon ball doesn’t continue with the show and I started watching anime like 3 years ago and I enjoyed the dragon ball series especially super more then aot I thinks it’s just a difference in taste aot writing is okay to me but it just seems like it was forced to me because I love a good twist but the show has so many twist and so much of the plot seems unnecessary like it could’ve been left out and the show would still have been fine
I didn’t fw aot spamming twist and as I was listening I noticed that’s the reason they think the story isn’t written well that’s 1000% a taste thing not everyone wants a twist every ep thats why the ending is controversial wasn’t what people wanted
You completely misunderstood Naruto and DBZ and the AOT twists aren’t random or forced, they’re built in from the very first episode and so forth but aye at the end of the day it really is just a taste thing. Go enjoy what y’all what.
For me personally after the wait for season 2 and all the payoffs after watching that season made aot one of my favorite anime’s of all time the Reiner and berthold reveal is still my favorite scene in the show
the guts to just casually reveal reiner and bertholdt reminded me of the aizen reveal in bleach. most anime would make the reveal some huge climactic thing, maybe end the chapter/episode with it, and aot was just like btw here lol
Mark & John are VASTLY overrating the speed scale in Demon Slayer. All of the effects are just to show how powerful they are to regular humans; they're not meant to be taken literally. Hashiras are basically the peak of human performance, barely superhuman. They're like Captain America or Iron Fist. They could kill some pure titans, but the nine titans together would wreck they shit.
Dbz has a story to it, no it’s not complex but to sit there and say there were no plot is crazy to me. It was very consistent. Yeah the the android and buu saga has its up and downs but the story is consistent. People be sleeping on akira.
Back and forth the most underrated series is back!! Also spoilers for AOT guys! 40k likes? Please like for back and forth
Y’all the goats frl
Also tegan is the fastest hashria and a shinobi he is trained for endurance
Yessir 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Love y'all content RDC , part 2 ? And TBH titan would wipe a hashrima
@@nicouzamki4582This is already part 26
Back & Forth is easily one of their best series. Perfect for background noise while doing things like work, studying, etc.
Literally listening while doing hw rn
The best
Listening at the gym rn
FACTS.
😂They yell a little too much for me to study to, but I see your point
Can we have more of these episodes please cause this was truly back and forth!!! John and Dylan were killing this
Dylan been hating tho dont get it twisted
To hate on dbz and act like aot had the perfect ending is CRAZY
The ending was great
🤷♂
@@thetruesquad5059when did he say perfect. If u were even listening they said multiple times that it wasn’t perfect but great (which it is)
The fact that Mark is saying his family is most important to him, so he's rather watch them DIE than watch them live happy lives without him is the most backwards shit I've ever heard😂
That’s mark 💀😂
But they wont live happy lives
@@King_X884 rather have them live a generally unhappy life, with a chance of being happy, then not let them live at all
@@zackycookie id rather see my love ones in a safe environment not sick and dying than seeing everyone i love die.
@@TheRewindSession fairs
I’m not gonna lie this is my favorite series from them, shows their individual personalities
The moment Armin decides to transform, it's a wrap. Hashira are fast, but they ain't dodging a nuke.
Tf you talking bout.....they can
didn't gyutaro blow up a town? they probably just tank that shi ngl
nigga this is a nuke equivalent 💀, also the founder is op end of story@@evanvazquez3923
Its literally a nuke and the hashira are humans
Its just not possible im sorry
Demon slayer characters arw not that strong
on god
@@evanvazquez3923
The reason attack on titan might not do well in the past would be do to the form in which tv and anime was consumed back then. You can’t stumble into a random episode of attack on titan on tv and be easily hooked. It was hard to be able to find whole shows and seasons outside of theirs tv slotted times. That’s why a simpler plot like dragon ball z worked because if someone randomly watched an episode it wouldn’t be too hard to understand what’s going on and therefore make you more likely to pick the show up from there.
I believe there can be exceptions to this, however I honestly think ur right. Just going off of my own personal experience sometimes just being able to jump into things and still get what’s going on usually is more enjoyable. There are times where I’ve watched shows with advance overarching stories however, and sometimes I can get hooked on the plot of that episode. Enough so where I eventually become interested in the show. But asides from that u make a very good point
Not to mention that seasonal anime was FAR less common back then. If you got an anime, it just ran until it was over, so AoT would have a TON of filler since it’s monthly and therefore produces less content on average (page count) than an average weekly manga produces.
This goes for almost 90% of anime lol
This is where the Golden Age of TV came in, like in the 90s it was mostly random adventures (Hercules and Xena are good examples).. I remember when it was all the hype to come home for a weekly show.. Heroes comes to mind.. But now when I watch a series I need long format and it to be serialised. I hate random episode stuff now haha
@@Eli-akad I do agree that you can get hooked or enticed by advanced stories like attack on titan but trying to find its entire media after is a harder task to accomplish in the past compared to now. If it was in the current day then surely you can get hooked and easily go find the show and start from the beginning instantly while comparatively in the past you would have to go searching for physical copies that could take weeks or months.
Can’t lie DB is the WWE of anime.
Came up in an era where it’s field wasn’t mainstream, pioneered its industry forward, became the representative of its genre, and many who watch it after it’s golden age don’t get why it’s so popular. You had to be there
No cap, that's a great ass fucking analogy, because you really did have to be there to fully understand.
@jzagg9362 Lowkey you just proved one of the points of this comment
@jzagg9362 More like you can’t appreciate the story because you can’t place yourself of what it was like to watch db in it’s golden age with no outside knowledge but aight bro
@jzagg9362 You keep mentioning nostalgia bias, as if it’s impossible for people to genuinely believe db is one of the goats without nostalgia playing a factor. If that’s your view bro, that’s hella cynical.
And you mention ‘better’ anime, as if we don’t all mostly use our own subjective metric to qualify what makes anime, a subjective medium, good and bad. If you’re talking about preference, aight, but that ain’t an objective measure for quality.
@jzagg9362 Aot literally had nothing to do with this comment thread till you brought it up just now. It was about a parallel between WWE and db.
And case in point, none of the qualities you mentioned can be measured objectively. After a certain level, they all get determined by preference. Someone could just as well argue those are things db has over aot.
And you missed my point about your claim of nostalgia bias. You act as if without nostalgia playing a factor, people wouldn’t view db as a goated show, even though db is beloved by western and eastern cultures alike across several generations.
Writing off the reason for db’s popularity and longevity as one of the goats as nostalgia bias is, again, cynical, as well as reductive. It’s pretty evident the core concept has a mass appeal.
If anything, i’d say more people underrate it than overrate it, sorta like you did lol
Season 1 and 2 of attack on titan are some of the best anime highlights of the decade. It hits a lot harder never reading the manga not getting spoiled. Trying to solve the mystery in your head of how the Titan thing started. I was falling off watching anime around the time when naruto and bleach ended. But AOT was one series that brought me back.
Im glad I started watching only 2 years ago and not way back like some people because I wouldnt have been able to cope with it ending
nah but like don't be sleeping on season 3! Season 3 was some the best pay off in all of aot with some really sick fights
@@Dundun11s3 part 2 was FIRE all the fights then reveals about beyond the walls
@@thetruesquad5059 BRO it hit so different but honestly I will say this as well part 1 of season 3 is a little slept on imo because that's where they started cooking and revealing more of the titan abilities and I really enjoyed
Not gonna lie season 2 was boring to me but I understand your point ✊🏾
Also to John's point about AoT possibly not shining in the 80s and 90s is actually valid. Cowboy Bebop and NGE are heralded is masterpieces yet during their time they were outshined by the typical Shonen battle anime. Those weren't the animes that made anime mainstream in America. Those were Pokémon, DB, Sailormoon, YuYu Hakusho etc. It's more likely AoT would be NGE back in DBZ era rather than it being more popular than DBZ
Exactly John point was valid but he hurt himself not being able to name well written shows from that era
@redcloudm5 True, but him not being able to name those shows, as well as the rest of the cast, further proves his point imo.
@@FlashReturnsFacts
I was literally thinking of those 2 and berserk the whole time. So frustrating he couldnt name one lol
@@redcloudm5yeah all he had to say was berserk and evangelion. They're literally from the 90's but undisputed in every top story list
We NEED even more back n forth I love this series more than anything
Floch briefly caught some random main character plot armor. He was NEVER like that in the ODM gear!
Dylan acting like Ymir on Reiner’s back will forever be in my head 😂
A simple demon slayer speed feat that was overlooked about rengoku: if you watched the mugen train arc (series Not movie) at the very beginning there was a demon covering cities in seconds on a killing spree and rengoku ran him down and cut him down (with the demon having a huge head start) before it could kill that girl and old lady
LITERALLY!!!
Surprised that was even an arrangement
Bro but it's not killing none of the 9 titans
rengoku is far faster but the colosal titan is a literal nuke that will instantly kill rengoku
The war hammer titan can be piloted from afar making it a constant threat rengoku has to avoid leaving him no time to for a break at any point
He has no way of knowing to go for the nape so the fight will drag on and any hit from the titans will permanently impair rengoku
The founder can make more titans appear
and the assault titan has precognition so they will be aware of what they are going to fight and they can easily make a plan (with the colosal titan as the win condition)
@@doom7607 Fax also if rengoku got close he'll look just like Armin
The toys in Dressrosa couldn't "just leave" they were under Sugar's contract Kyros was the first toy in Dressrosa that's and sugar forgot to do the contract thats why he was able to move freely
Not only that doflamingo took all the money from the civilians and had king Riku, the beloved king of the country nicest guy ever and have him kill the civilians. That gave him the money.
@@TRJ42yeah but they didn’t know that. They only found out during the time luffy was fighting doflamingo.
Sounds like Fan theory nonsense used to cover up a plot hole. Any evidence in the actual story that shows this?
Nah yea and they was like that for 10 years. Idk it’s close bc Wano def got hoed but idk if I could live as a toy slave for 10 years w no hope of ever going back😭
@@fjCordero5 but they eventually did get their bodies restored. Wano got the smile fruits, that's a permanent effect. They have no cure 😢
1:03:00 John is right when he says people weren’t looking for those kind of stories at the time. And I have one anime to prove it that made a huge comeback in recent times and is widely loved. DevilMan Crybaby was an anime that came out in the 80’s (yes late 80’s for those who really know) but the story always had substance to it just not the eyes. When DevilMan made a return it was huge and people were really regarding the series as one of the best not knowing it’s based on a story from the 80’s scene. I get John is bad at bringing up examples in a lot tf this video but he was 100% correct that people back in the day weren’t looking for stuff this deep diving. Devil man is a story that was overlooked cause people didn’t really care or didn’t see the message of the show but now all of a sudden the younger people who watched the Netflix version understand the story better than those who overlooked it in the past. Timing means a lot when it comes to what’s going to be popular or widely loved by the public.
Also DBZ had good writing when it came to Raditz and the Saiyan saga if you went from Og Dragon Ball to Z. It was a major twist that Goku was an alien and now he has a brother that wants to dominate everything for their race and he doesn’t have that sense of attachment at all. Then finding out he can turn into a super saiyan and the ozaru form wasn’t the only thing he got from being an alien was fucking mind blowing. I think the problem is really due to when these shows came out. Cause a lot of these arguments wouldn’t be made if things came out at different times. Like let’s be real here if DBZ came out in 2023 with updated animations and no filler would go hard af. If it jumped straight to each saga no one would be saying “it moves slow.” This id the problem I’m talking about when it comes out. If JjK was coming out at the same time DB or DBZ came out it would be filled with filler and be considered good for certain qualities yet hated for others.
So true and the way Devilman Crybaby ended to I don’t think people would’ve liked that back then either
It's crazy how they're not even involving the first 195 chapters of Dragon Ball in the discussion, not to mention them not even watching Z in a long time and barely remember anything. Even then, using pacing as a point means nothing when KAI solves said problems.
What bugs me the most is them talking about fist of the north star, calling it boring and that it had bad writing without expanding on why to then move on. I would bet everything that they barely even saw anything enough to say that 💀
Sure devil man cry baby got some traction, but it never jumped that big in popularity. To put it plainly in the last decade no one has put Devil man crybaby was in anyone’s top 10 list in anime. Its story is just alright, and that’s why even though it got some appreciation it never jumped up to anyone’s top 10. So even if he brought up an example of DMC it wouldn’t be a good point because DMC story didn’t actually get a big jump in popularity.
@@MinhPham-ff4jc you kind of get what I was saying but I think you might be slightly off by what I meant. I was saying that in John’s argument which is correct to a degree “if attack on titan came out earlier that it probably wouldn’t be as heavily revered as it is since it came out now.” My example of DMC was just an example of a show that came out originally at the wrong time and didn’t get nearly the recognition it got after Netflix did their rendition not that it’s anyone’s top 10 (that’s a hard thing to do for a show with like 12 or so episodes I think). You are correct though it’s not common at all for people to say DMC is in their top 10 and even i would be shocked if someone said it’s number 1. Like don’t get me wrong either I love Attack on Titan but I think part of the reason it’s so popular is because it both had a compelling story at the right time for the audiences to watch and it was just amazing in general. We live at a time where anime is liked widely and isn’t seen as weird like how it used to be and people are looking for the deeper meanings in shows to a degree so I think Atot has perfect timing that’s all I’m saying. I still like DMC but it’s not in my top 10 maybe 15-20 but definitely not 10.
Attack on titan going down as one of the GOATS man even with the subjective ending, how did Isayama cover that COMPLEX ass story into a boy who just wanted to kill all the titans. One of a kind plot. Keep grinding RDC!
frrrr!!!
frrr
Facts, all those twists and turns just made eren’s mission that much more epic. Classic show.
@BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy what's ure top 5?
Finished Manga Top 5 Anime: FMA, Death Note, Gintama, Naruto, AOT @BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy I think AOT definitely broke through but could be replaced in the future when HxH and One Piece finish out.
I feel the AOT vs DBZ argument is tough to do because they're from completely different time periods where the standards of what is amazing were different. DBZ innovated a bunch of what modern anime take from today and you can see all of Goku's grandchildren and great grandchildren running around. The way the villains and characters like Future Trunks were handled was amazing and they were all unique and distinct both from each other and from other characters existing in the landscape at the time.
I think the same way DBZ wouldn't beat AOT if it came out during the 2010s, AOT wouldn't beat DBZ if it came out in the last 80s and early 90s. The landscape was simply different for what folks were interested in reading.
If attack on Titan came out in the 80s or '90s, it definitely would have blended in to other animes of its time. It will probably have that same darker tones like Gundam, ghost in the Shell, Akira, Appleseed.
A lot of modern day animes have really gotten away from Mecha, robot, space, post-apocalyptic kind of vibes
@fattygamer94 bruh I never thought of it like that after all these years 😂 AOT is a mecha anime. It's literally a "Modern" Gundam (I know they still make Gundam series).
You one of the few niggas that understand future trunks saga through dbz and super alone already secure dragonball as some of the best anime story writing ever… his ssj rage in dbs, future gohan and the androids killing him etc all that shit is amazing if you think more deeply…. Trunks is a half breed with more potential than normal saiyans and he’s had an entire life of trauma and intense battles from androids to zamasu the cheese lord god enemy narcissistic mf lol… time travel and time rings etc handled perfectly… such an apocalyptic scenario akira toriyama held it down fr on that entire storyline over the decades
Leland speaking facts. "I'd rather struggle with my family then be out there by myself" Real Talk!
But u wouldn’t struggle with your family bc any men fit enough would be taken and put to work in the factories until you die.
@@zqShadowMonarch You got me with that one, I woulda been sent to the factories quick. That life would suck. But in the general aspect the line is facts tho.
in wano you'll be working in a factory with no break until u die, there's no spending time with family lol
So you wanna hoe your whole family Vs just taking the Dolo L 😂
@@zqShadowMonarchhell no u just slaving
With Tanjiro being able to cut through a boulder before defeating his first demon opponent, I think a Hashira can easily cut through Titan crystal.
Facts
Facts
bruh any hashira would demolish all 9 titans together, also the founding titan cant do shit to a hashira since they not subjects of ymir
@@OGRiathey don’t need to be supjects of yumir for the rumbling to kill them
Cutting a rock is nothing. That's beginner level shit for any anime with swords.
For Wano vs Dressrosa it really between "Would you rather suffer with your family or have your family be happy but forget your existence"
Quite frankly if I was a dude with a wife and kids, I rather be forgotten than have them suffer in Wano.
Exactly and marks wrong in thinking he’d get to suffer with his family bc any fit enough would be thrown into the factories to work until you die
its a sefless decision to suffer for the ones you love if i had the decision to be a toy and my family can a have a decent quality of life and they not remember me vs my family slowing deteriorating in front of my eyes and i cant even cry abt it im forsure makin that sacrifice and becoming a toy 😅
only small portion of people turned into toys unlike wano where everyone were killed and become slaves
@@zqShadowMonarch Exactly, idk why people thinking you can suffer with your family when half of them gonna be enslaved and working in a factory and the other half are gonna die by starvation or orochi/kaido. Tama was literally an oprhan.
@@taahanajam8634 I’m saying! Most of wano population is gone. What’s left is enslaved or starving to death or forced to work for nothing and fead smile fruits. And to work to please orochi
Happy to see how far yall come frfr keep goin dont stop cant wait for the manga to turn into a real show
Dylan and Mark giving Code Geass it’s flowers. You love to see it. Goated show.
@jjbailey6430 fax
I’ve just finished AOT and when I tell you it’s such a beautiful story… I waited so long to watch it because for some reason at first I thought it was slow and didn’t give it a chance but now it’s easily top 5 favorite if not top 3…
I get John’s point about AOT MAYBE not being as popular if it came out earlier. It reminds me of horror movies and how now people like “elevated” horror as opposed to slasher films. That’s why a lot of media are cult classics-they find their audience later even though they were good when they came out.
I ageee with John cuz all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
Slasher films are just BAD now, that's why they aren't liked as much. Halloween is still a classic that has aged well, Alien is still a classic that has aged well, Scream series is still going strongly. If Friday the 13th came out today, it would never have become the cult classic that it is...and that's true of majority of slasher flicks, but some told good enough stories to stand the test of time.
i agree with John 100%...
his point sounds so dumb. If aot came out back in the it would be still be the same. It wouldnt change the fact that aot had an amazing overall story and fitting ending. That whole argument bout not finding the audience target so stupid. Youre basically saying that if fma came out back in the day they wouldnt have the same impact and great story just cause its not shounen like dbz and other shit. Making it sound like people was only looking for shounen back then. No. DBZ is as big as it is today was because the story gripped us enough to watch everytime a new episode came out. and his whole argument basically saying aot not as gripping? WHAT?!? If anything. If aot came out and finished back in the day. it would MAYBE have more "impact" than dbz. Also. that point about elevated horror is irrelevant. That shit do not matter. It's literally just about how the story gets you hooked. Yall making it sound like you sit to watch a show because you already know what youre getting out of it. TF. Im pretty sure people sit to watch because they are looking for something new to watch. Not knowing what theyre getting out of it. That whole audience target do not matter. Especially if we talking anime. Dylan's points hit and I feel like John just arguing out of biased. And with his point he basically saying that if dbz came out now. It would be mid because people not looking for that kind of shit. Which is why he bringing in that whole "inspiration" argument saying that dbz better cause it was the first to come out. He literally just debunked his earlier argument with that "if aot came out back in the day" point. All I got from that argument was him yapping. and also, why he tryna bring in that "target audience" when they just talking about the anime as whole (story, character, pacing)... Whole argument about reaching the targeted audience actually just sounds extra stupid. With that point... Then Evagelion, akira, trigun, and or almost every anime that came out back then would be called mid with the story and everything they got because people was only looking for shows like DBZ?!?!??? what.
@@vialize exactly this...the great anime today would still be great, or even greater actually if they came out in the past, same can't be said though of some anime in the past if they came out today. DBZ would not compete with Kimetsu no Yaiba, Jujutsu Kaisen, Boku no Academia, Castlevania, Shingeki no Kyojin and others if it came out today...it came out at the perfect time for it to make its mark.
The thing that pissed me off the most about Arya killing the night king is that he had nothing to do with her story. Think about it. Name one scene, before season 8, where someone even said the word night king or white walker and Arya was in the scene. Meanwhile after Jon befriended the wildings the night king became his main villain. Jon is the one who brought the people together to fight him. Even worse, it was Brans entire story. The night king should have either died fighting Jon or Bran should have did so 3 eyed raven bull to kill him. Aryas big moment should have been killing Cersei. She was the last one on Aryas list and it would have been a more satisfying death then Cersei dying from falling rocks. I’m not even gonna talk about Jamie and Dany.
They need you in the writers room fr
What are you yapping about ?
@@donchinago3566 Did u not watch the video. They were talking about how Game of Thrones ending sucked and I gave my two cents about why I felt it sucked as well.
Facts man. They threw away all that whole build up for so many of the MAIN characters. Wasted so much damn time setting they character arcs up, and it drags down so much of the show along with it unlike other stories with bad/mediocre endings
AoT and GoT gotta a lot of similarities tbh
Endurance couldn't be a factor to worry about considering that all Hashira use concentration breathing techniques.
it should e since they die from burns before getting to the top of even 1 colossal titan
@@humanoidfrog4645 armin took on Bertolt for a while before he scorched completely, surely a Hashira trained to fight demons with far greater abilities could within the heat.
@@Snaggywon hashira are regular humans using techniques to enhance their muscles. At the end of the day they're still normal people. One sword through the body and the mist hashira instantly died. Levi has a bigger chance of beating THE 9 titans (intelligence, skills and all) than most of the hashira do. I finished both demon slayer and aot and the hashira would be wiped if they didn't fight the last 4 strongest demons one by one. EXPERTISE is the most important skill in aot and that's why new scouts died easily and later in their carrier they barely die.
@@humanoidfrog4645 Hashira would die in the same way Levi would because ofc are humans there’s no argument there but clearly those in demon slayer are far more durable and could bang toe to toe with a few (if not all) of the titans. And don’t act like Hashira aren’t intelligent enough to deal with demons that have been killing for millennia. Lastly let’s not forget majority of the titans understands how ODM gears work and can plan for it if they’re working together. Fighting a Hashira with no prior knowledge that uses several abilities that enhances their swordsmanship should not be overlooked imo.
@@Snaggywon hashira are not killing titans from the ground up without knowing what the titans are. Hashira usually die very young and gang up on demons to beat them. 4-5 hashira is equal to upper moon 1 so that says enough about their power level. Hashira die to fire especially a nuke from armin
Dylan is forever a legend for not letting that nostalgia bs slide
no he’s actually stupid lol. the misconception that dbz took episodes for a charge up showed his ignorance. he fr was talkin nonsense this episode
Ngl saying that people only like something purely for nostalgia is a really lazy criticism. Are you saying it's poorly written or boring? You're just stating that people liked it way back when lol. People often leave it at "nostalgia bias" and that's it really.
@@MachinaOwl exactlyyy. its ignorant
@@MachinaOwl I think you’re kinda missing the context of the video if you’re saying something like that. They literally broke down the nostalgia bias and what it actually means. For reference, a show like dbz which is relatively boring and especially poorly written in a lot of places, is carried immensely by nostalgia and impact. Two things that have no place in any kind of legitimate ranking of quality.
Impact and nostalgia are a way folks cheat to say old shit is great. I’m glad he stood on DBZ having issues
DBZ story and world building is actually crazy if you look back at where it started in Dragon Ball. The fact that Toriyama took it from a adventure story then built on strings like the Ozaru, the fact that piccolo and kami, and red ribbon army, and expanded that to the saiyan arc, namek arc, the android arc, and all of the kai shit building into the Buu arc really shows a huge amount of world building from previously mysterious and small story points that should be respected. If anything, the characters are 1D compared to today as far as the writing, but the fact that you come to like the characters and point to them as one of the main reasons it is great regardless of the rest of the story shows how far you can go with simple characters and a huge scope for conflict points.
Even crazier when you realize that he was pretty much coming up with the story on a weekly basis. He was just making more story on the spot.
Dbz has very little world building. Y’all have bout 4 different spin offs which one of them had nothing to do with the main story. Dragon balls build ups are legit new sayiain or fusions and the obvious villain. And the fights are legit somehow I’m going to be stronger than you in the middle of this fight with no explanation as to why other than plot armor. If we talking about story and world building dbz is definitely not it and there is nothing wrong with that because dbz would still be in my top 5 because without it most these other anime’s won’t exist
@@Agent_Apostle Maybe watch the show and don’t let someone else’s opinion dictate your own. Fusions have shown up a total of 3 times in the canon story and the only surviving “new saiyan”is Broly.
@@why2947 I did watch the show lmao I put dbz in my top 5 all time dbz doesn’t compare to other anime’s story wise if you think that then that’s your opinion but in my opinion dbz doesn’t come close to these other anime’s as far as story and world building. Their opinion ain’t my opinion it’s my opinion I watched every dbz series including gt
As someone who grew up on the og Funimation dub and havent seen any other since, once I read the manga a lot of my problems with dbz story were quelled. The dialogue and pacing makes so much more sense in Toryiamas manga.
AOT is top 5 in my opinion. Obviously it’s a subjective list but the storyline and world building is one of the best out of any show including anime’s. Let’s remember that AOT holds the 2,4, and 5 spot for most watch tv episodes of all time. The only show that is in front of them is breaking bad.
It’s top-five for me too bro 😎 but I’ve been seeing a lot of hate for attack on Titan the treated like it’s trash now for some reason if not trash, they give it the death note treatment go to the reaction a Videos on the final episode it’s just people comments filled with hate.
@@TRJ42AOT tackles social issues in ways most anime don’t even get close, people will never agree on it regardless of whether it’s objectively bad or not.
@@geronimo1595imo aot “social issues” narrative is really weak. If you compare it to a whole load of anime/manga it’s not really anything special
@@davethawng1585AOT definitely leans on those issues more than your average battle shonen
cuz hype
Great convo! I disagree that no part of DBZ is written well. I think the idea that complexity = quality is a modern notion that shortchanges older shows. I think Gohan's arc is extremely well written. DBZ's style is just more character-focused with simple plots which was the style of the time. I've been going back to watch older anime, and it's honestly refreshing to see a different style of storytelling that focuses more on emotional truths than building a (albeit cool) house of cards.
Complexity does not = quality is a great point and Demon Slayer is proof of that in today’s era, everyone loves it and the story is not complex at all
@@redcloudm5 nah bro don't get shit mixed up. People only love demon slayer cus the animation is fucking beautiful
Yep. Simplicity can beat complexity depending on execution. And thats EXACTLY why demon sIayers story aint as ba d as ppI say. PpI love to say all it has is animation. No it has a story too. A simple story. Ive been arguing this for awhile and its so cool seeing others wake up to that.
i feel like cell saga had above average writing, u valid on everything else
@@ndubuisiamadi ong
Back and fourth with yall is so dope and tagging in a more knowledgeable member is great. I love when yall discuss these topics among each other
I think a big flaw with the Hashiras is the material given on their stamina. In both the demon-slayer manga and anime, they highlight several times where the demons are able to win a war of attrition (Rengoku as an example). I don't necessarily know if a Hashira could sustain the output to killing nine core titans. I personally believe they are capable of killing each one individually, but I don't know if they can last long enough to sustain.
Because the demons have immortality….oh and brains, smaller targets, and a more controlled manner of attack.
Like bro, everyone on the AoT side was arguing null points , tf was they bringing up the Jaw, Female, Armored,Beast and Warhammer for? They get negged by S2 Tanjiro imo, the real argument they shoulda brought up was the colossal and founding, who would literally out class and negg everyone from the DS verse, Muzan and Yoriichi included
Like care to explain to me how Muzan or Yoriichi survive a fire ball that's 1000x hotter than the surface of the sun, and that reduces any form of matter down to it's subatomic particles, expands at 80% the speed of light, and covers a 5 mile radius
@@thecraze4853 im ngl you cookin so for the mere fact of wanting an explanation how do you think the hashiras would win or rather how would the titans lose?
rengoku didnt lose a bc of attrition he had an arm in his chest
@@palooski227 if we take the two top dogs out ( the founder and Colossal) The hashira would win because of their speed and their swords , if you remember Tanjiro in Season 1 cut a boulder in half and his sword didn't even have a scratch on it, S1 Tanjiro wasn't remotely close to even the weakest hashira, and the blades strength scales with with the strength and skill of it's user, so I can almost guarantee you their swords would go through Titan hardening, now if we assume they have no information on each other, that Titans might win purely from attrition, but if we assume otherwise, it's GG for the Attack, Beast, Female, Armored, Warhammer, Jaw and cart, they would simply run up to the nape cut them out and take off their head
The Colossal like I said transforms with a Nuke, .....so I'm sorry if it's a fight even with Muzan, the MF would have to be over 5 miles away to not get Thanosed by the Nukes fireball, which doesn't make any sense
For the founding...... it's the colossal, Plus all the other 7.....just on mad steroids, assuming the founding has full backing from Ymir ofc, it can spawn infinite Titans, hell it could spawn past colossal setting off multiple nukes, so no chance against that thing.
I don't think they give Akira Toriyama enough credit. up until the Buu saga, it was written really well with an extensive lore (power levels, techniques, alien races, transformations, etc... shit that fuels discussions to this day). it didn't focus on dark or political themes like AoT, but that doesn't mean it was bad or inferior.
Exactly that part of the video was getting me annoyed lol it seemed like they watch dbz but really haven’t paid attention to dbz. I love Rdcworld1 but when it came to the dbz section they we’re wrong about some things in my opinion.
facts, thts something i learned to appreciate once i went back and watched in my adult hood.
They don’t give him credit cause a lot of people ain’t watch OG dragon ball, where majority of the cast played a role unlike in later DBZ (mostly everything after the frieza arc)
It's definitely inferior in depth and writing
I agree with you bro, they really try to downplay DBZ, just because it’s not as complex they already deem it as not well written when it’s actually a well written simple story. And I think that plays into what John was saying about AOT not being as successful if it came out during the DBZ time because the anime landscape was not what it is today so the audience and interest for AOT would already be limited. That’s why I believe DBZ actually has the better story for that time to mainstream anime like it did.
Reason that AoT is a top 5 show is because EVERY SINGLE EPISODE MATTERS.
No filler, no huge, episode long flashbacks, there is constantly something happening in each episode that has you connecting dots and asking questions, or just flat out amazed at the spectacle.
Yup!
Im pretty sure Grishas flashback was a couple episodes long but that shit slapped, some of the best aot episodes
Aot is overrated, literally while it was aired noone cared except for the first and last season. Every ep of dororo matters aswell.
@@johncrowley3322🧢🧢🧢
EXACTLY!! You are always on ur toes on AOT but on Naruto and one piece they be adding stupid fillers that ruin the momentum of the show
Watching John stand his ground made me happy
1:00:05
Ngl I kinda agree with John. I feel like if Attack on Titan came out in the 80’s or 90’s it would become a cult classic like Berserk. The violence makes me think that it would limit the audience but who knows as OG dragon ball was actually quite bloody
I ageee with John too cuz all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
Ppl really missed out on OG Dragonball and dbz. Super is written like fan fiction and you can’t watch dbz the way it was originally animated anymore.
@@greeneyegamerguy6007 this is super valid. it's crazy how much they fucked over goku's character in particular, but super was literally just one big ass nostalgia trip to make more money. more transformations! repeat the iconic moments from dbz! just trash. not even gonna get into how stupid every character looks now (just look at the freaking hair!)
Yea people get mad but its really just Boruto for DBZ. People blame the shows for being mid but instead of just letting things end theyre like ok but how much money to bring it back and then get mad when its not the same tier of the original. Sure you get some cool scenes and ideas but to think the story is gonna hold up to the passion of the orginals is honestly an unfair comparison@@TheRulersBack18
Berserk over AOT I'm ngl to you. Head and shoulders above it.
John going CRAZY in this podcast
I feel up until new era-2010s, there was an emphasis on weekly serialized manga release and managaka’s really had to frame and pace the story alongside this sales method to ensure the anime would pick up and flow accordingly. Nowadays with anime only streaming services people consume anime at a much quicker pace and sometimes disregard the manga entirely. Newer series are condensed with less fluff as they don’t need to survive on the old sales model as series like DB/DBZ did.
Side-note: I nominate Neon Genesis for old school anime impactful and well written
Well said. That’s a really good point. DBZ had to survive weekly as a show so naturally they needed to drag things out a bit more.
I also get the points Dylan was making…but every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto yet he still had Naruto above AoT somehow.
Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it.
For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes
1. DBZ
2. Gundam Wing
3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them)
4. Fate Zero
5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either)
If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit
1. Attack on Titan
2. FMA Brotherhood
3. Fate Zero
4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo
5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners
The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass, NGE (original or Rebuild movies), and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well.
I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard.
I would also throw Ghost in the shell along side NGE for the point u made. Well written, probably one of the greatest animation spectacles when you consider the time it came out…and the Impact, while it wasn’t as large as DBZ, it still had a massive impact on the Sci-fi/futuristic/cyberpunk genre in all of media, not just anime. The fuckin matrix took inspiration from Ghost in the Shell. That hoe inspired a lot of shit.
Titans are getting cooked quickly by the hashira, especially if they know the nape weakness, which they could find out easily since they are already trained to do so with demons
They not beating the colossal
@@rightguy200000with demon mark they beat all titans
@karma9340 Nah he incenerates them in steam as soon as they get close.
@@rightguy200000 spoiler for final parts of AOT
Hange was able to kill a few of the rumbling colossal titans before burning up and we all know for sure how much quicker and stronger hashira are then hange
@@DragonNinja83 Those were mindless titans. Watch how fast Berthold incinerated Armin the instant he decided to kill him.
They forgot to mention most of the toys in Dressrosa were forced into slave labor and had no control over their bodies. And they can still feel fatigue and their constant whoopings
omg
20years though???
@@E5_MayorI’m saying bruh
DBZs Impact is so much more important than it’s given credit for.
The rival dynamic
The evil villain turned good archetype
Transformations/power ups
Sensei dynamic
TOURNAMENT ARCS
Dbz is the blueprint for so many shows
DBZ's impact was starting the shonen genre after that it's just pure trash DBZ just can't compare to most anime given how horrible the writing is
@@simpletora7313it’s really not go back and really watch the Namek and Cell Saga. The focus of Dragon Ball is the characters and their dynamics with each other
@@dsmith231 I have. Post saiyan saga though the show just gets so bad to me. Maybe it’s because DBZ wasn’t my first anime and I had gotten used to all the cliche tropes (that I know DBZ basically created) and maybe that has a big impact but I can’t watch DB anything without facepalming about how stupid the characters and their motivations are in every single issue
@simpletora7313 you should check out Totally Not Mark's videos on dbz. He'll put things better than I ever could. If you ever find yourself bored one day.
@@simpletora7313u just hating 💀
John is deffo right about the fact that Attack on Titan wouldn’t be popping back then the way it is now. The main demographic of anime/manga was kids who’s main focus was fighting and cool stuff. Which makes sense why we loved DBZ/Bleach/Naruto etc. Us growing up made us realize the amazing writing and faults in the likes of One Piece/Naruto etc. Also us growing up with anime and maturing opened us up to more mature series like Death Note/Code Geass. Which brings us all the way to Attack on Titan which aligns with our age and what story the author is trying to tell us! The opposing ideologies, racism, the complexity of humanity etc. The point John is making is that a series of Attack on titans magnitude would go over our heads if it came out when we were that young! Many would go back and watch it as they grew up but it still wouldn’t be as big as it is now. Examples who fit this would be 20th century boys and Monster. Two spectacularly written manga but came out in a era were most anime watchers was young kids who would rather watch straight fighting
Well said, if aot came out back in the day most people wouldn’t have even seen it cause of it’s hiatuses, not to mention shit wasn’t on demand so it would be very hard for you to keep track of it, let alone gain new fans.
True dbz was definitely targeting kids didn’t realize the writing was mid until we got older
Honestly really solid points, that being said, there’s a reason it didn’t come out back then
I agree wholeheartedly.
Another thing against Dylan’s argument is that every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto, but yet he still had Naruto in his top 5 (above AoT).
Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 (still one of my favorites) if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it.
For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes
1. DBZ
2. Gundam Wing
3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them)
4. Fate Zero
5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either)
If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit
1. Attack on Titan
2. FMA Brotherhood
3. Fate Zero
4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo
5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners
The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well.
I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard
@Footballazz one piece and hunter x hunter are tied imo, Vinland saga is probably 1
This the most John every made since to me👏🏾
Seeing the production gradually get better and better since the first episode, love this series
were the video frames weird for anyone? i kept seeing cut visuals like the camera was blinking or something
@@PippaPasses same for me but I haven't seen any weird frames since the intro, I think it was just the different camera angles mixing together
Man you remember like a good chunk of episodes had trash ass audio
I think influence (how a show/film affected other anime and the genre) AND impact (how it resonated emotionally) should be judged alongside foundational factors like story, worldbuilding, characters, and animation. That way, classic anime aren’t disregarded because of the genre’s natural progression and new anime can still assert themselves as GOATs as well. Regardless of your top five, it’s just great to love anime and share that with other people. What a time to be an anime fan!
No it shouldn’t being first should not disregard other factors.
@@Stunt877 Yeah, I’m saying people should consider a combination of factors instead of just one. That way, it’s more balanced. Also, I wouldn’t say being first guarantees influence. A show could’ve come before and had no influence on what came later. And both new and older anime can have a huge impact on people.
I 100% agree with your take.
I get the points Dylan was making…but every point he made to detract from DBZ, you can say the same about Naruto yet that was still above AoT on his list.
Naruto has way too many flaws to be in a top 5 if you’re being critical and ignoring nostalgia and impact. And I’m not just talking about filler. I could say the same about One Piece probably but I’ll leave that alone since I haven’t seen it.
For me, with Nostalgia and Impact and all of that involved it goes
1. DBZ
2. Gundam Wing
3. Attack on Titan/FMA brotherhood (I honestly can’t separate them)
4. Fate Zero
5. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo (I can’t separate these either)
If we ignoring Nostalgia and shit
1. Attack on Titan
2. FMA Brotherhood
3. Fate Zero
4. Hunter x Hunter/Samurai Champloo
5. Cyberpunk: Edgerunners
The fifth spot could’ve really went to a bunch of shows tbh. Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Darker than Black S1, Black Lagoon, Code Geass and Vinland Saga. Cyberpunk probably got some recency bias going for it tbh but oh well.
I ain’t seen Stein’s Gate, Baccano or Monster yet but they could probably be up there too once I watch them based on what I heard
@Footballazz yet another mf sleeping on Gurren Lagann
Attack on Titan IMO is the only anime to supersede the genre and reach out to other audiences.
It’s a legendary anime that will be the staple for other anime to inspire to be in terms of everything.
It will talked about for decades to come.
OST
Animation
Story
Characters
Twists
Messages
Mappa & WIT & Iseyama created
something truly special.
Preach.
How did it supersede the genre and what genre would it be anyways (unless you mean anime then you’re using supersede wrong). Both of those are genuine questions
it’s barely even being talked about now, it literally is GOT again. shit was hype, ending was ass, people moved on
Bro it’s a lot of good anime, just ain’t get the same attention fr
@@AreYouFNQRAZIIobviously there’s good anime out there, but 99% don’t do or reach the peaks of attack on Titan.
That’s why attack on Titan is legendary and other “good anime” that aren’t getting the same “attention”…
The armored and colossal titan reveal is the greatest transformation of all time
Haven’t watched one piece in awhile, but i think these are correct if my memory serves right
-u don’t randomly get turned into a toy in dressrosa it’s usually done if you disobey
-after you’re reverted back to human everyone gets their memories of you back, but in wano after you eat the smile fruit you can’t go back
Yeah and one of the worst drawbacks of Sugar's power is even SHE forgets the people she's turned into toys, so if she does it to an ally, she won't even remember to undo it.
@@BioYuGi I didn’t even think about it affecting her memory too
Yea but only some of the population had a possibility of being affected in wano most of the population was living lavishly. Also don’t forget you had a chance of getting your child sent to punk hazard to be experimented on
Put some respect on Jean and Conny tho, they were among the top of their class for a reason, their ability with the ODM gear was unmatched.
And it still doesn’t compare to a hashira movement😂 they’re humans
And it makes sense for Jean to be with Mikasa. It was forshadowed in his character intro. He was crushing on Mikasa. And kept fixating on her and admitedly jealous of eren. Its on the page. It made sense.
@@jblakk6768it makes sense but nobody actually wanted them to be together. mikasa do not love him 🤣 she still hung up on eren 10 years later.
@@YALLDONTNEEDTOKNOWThat’s like saying you can’t miss and love your dead wife and still be able to love your current wife. It literally happens all the time in real life. It’s perfectly fine that she can miss Eren and love her husband Jean at the same time.
all of them were dead if falco and OGs didn't save them
annie was running the speed of a horse, and reiner was just a little bit faster, there ain’t no way they think these titans is this fast
Annie was blitzing them horses😂they not faster than a hashira but don’t hoe😂
them hashiras are not fast either. Remember that cut off of the upper six fighting the hashira in the alley from from S3 .
Their size makes them cover distance faster too. If I ran 10 mph and i upscaled myself to 4 meters, now i cover wayyy more distance in that same timeframe just from the size increase.
They didnt even mention Armin could just nuke the demon slayer people
And even then the only reason they’re able to do that is because they’re giant and can cover more ground
We need the whole squad back for back and forth!!!
Can we all agree that the ODM gear made them fast to get from point A to point B. A hashira could face the nine titans cuz they aren't fast. But lets not act like them ODM gears wasn't a necessity for them to fight.
Edit: If Momonosuke and the Nine Kazuki had to time travel 20 years into the future to develop a plan to raid Kaido and take back their country, i think Wano had it worst.
Bro Armin turn into his titan once and nukes everyone 🤔 Eren can control everyone, I saw 1 hashira gets packed ngl
@@HigherNobility "Could" never said they had one chance at all💀
@@dewdadream odm gear is different from just speed it lets them travel in any direction mid travel e.g. if rengoku jumps in a straight line he cant turn right instantly while keeping all momentum
@@HigherNobilityhow weak do you think a hashira is? I don't like demon slayer but the fact these 2 things were being compared was crazy...
@@doom7607 i agree wit you but it was still a necessity for them to fight the titans
Dragonball has great writing it’s not a complex story but it’s written phenomenally
Agreed especially for Toriyama literally writing off cuff! Lol
OG DB, I agree. But everything after that is just an action flick tbh
Vinland Saga has one of the best stories I’ve watched it really gave me that Aot vibes from characters ,plot , Fights.
Thorfinn characters development of a true struggle of a Warrior trying to find Peace and Repent for his Sins Amazing so far
Winland Saga 🔥🔥
AOT and Vinland Saga are definitely top 5, or even 3, for me
@@kurimiaisukurimuThey definitely in my top 10
Vinland is underrated
I can definitely see Vinland Saga being on my Top 5 of all time after it’s over.
Respect Dylan standing on his opinion that people only put DBZ in their all time Top 5 because of nostalgia, but let's be clear without Dragonball modern anime doesn't exist as it does today. Its impact alone solidifies it's legacy as an all time Top 5 anime.
Dylan has BEEN hating bro
There was a whole 15 mins on stream of him saying dbz is carried by nostalgia not understanding it was written that way cuz of when it came out, now the media is different and there is a lot more to work off of, like bruh 🤦
People love to say just off nostalgia, me being a fan of so much anime I love dbz because of the story, the characters , and how much characters like Vegeta and Piccolo have grown since Dragon Ball and Z to now Super.
@@thetruesquad5059 take the time period argument out because their were better mangas written than dragon ball z around that time
@@thetruesquad5059not hating it's facts like it's just hard to compare because as a generation we upgrade so you can't really compare as ur dragon ball z came out now with peoples attention span ... I have my life on majority not making pass season 2 they fought for episodessss with Frieza
If it wasn't dragon ball would be another , you got many old ass shounens out there that did good , Japan doesn't lack genius people when it comes to writing manga.
Dragon Ball wouldn't have stood out as much if it came out today but it'd be the same for AOT if it came out back in the 80s/90s when dark and gritty anime were the norm. It also helped AOT that mecha genre fell off because everything it does, shows like Gundam, Evangelion Code Geass, and Gurren Lagann did first.
Can you please do another back and forth. Have you done saddest moments? Most hype moments? Hair raising moments?
This was a BACK AND FORTH fr fr. Loved this episode, John and Dyl both had great points on that last question
Yoo John came in with some really valid points..
I honestly think that last question is impossible to answer because every person goes into watching an anime looking for different things because if u want a good story u can go for shows like aot,monster,code geass etc but if u go into a show looking for fights and transformation you will obviously like dbz, bleach, naruto and shows like that more.
It’s definitely a bias question cause anybody can say their personal fav anime but I think dragonball as whole is just different on a level even without nostalgia really
@@r..e7045I know it's your opinion but come on now. You cannot rewatch dbz today and say it is amazing without nostalgia. Or maybe, I am just hating. I don't even know anymore
@@r..e7045and you are buggin, if you put someone fresh on to anime and have them watch both, 10/10 people over the age of like 13 going to rate AoT way higher
@@qriz5 no there not that’s just you be basis like I just stated that’s ur opinion there’s some of anime’s that better then AOT and there’s plenty that are not. The question literally revolves around favoritism’s of YOuR personal top 5😂which for me AOT is 6 or 7 on my list
@@qriz5 That's just your opinion. None of us can know for sure.
Back and Forth is always so engaging but my problem is that when there’s a show that’s brought up I can’t really (mentally) participate in the convo. This ep was great tho since I’ve watched DBZ and AOT as well as most of the other shows mentioned
i relate to u
Do they ever mention the fact that eren lost because he wanted to lose? Mfs don’t realize that if eren didn’t have a weak spot for his friends they wouldn’t of even made it to his back let alone kill him
Thank you bro. Half the mfs arguing against the 9 haven’t even seen AOT or are stupid asl.
Easily top 3
-masterclass story telling
-manga anime adaptation delivers
-characters are well made
-didn’t rely on typical underdog story
-didn’t rely on goofy comedy
-didn’t rely on big tits fan services
-the anime itself aren’t that long, it’s less than 100 episode, not too short either.
-it’s a dream anime set up and it delivers
@BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy
I mean my favourite is naruto, it’s well liked but not on AOT level. Dragon ball z that’s just classical most overrated shit of all time. They don’t even considered that in Big 3 lmfao
@BoxingisgoatedBoxingisgo-sy7jy
I mean the characters in naruto are more likeable. And there’s funny goofy side to it. We’re talking about the whole anime here. Fillers alone hurts naruto reputation.
Understand that goofy comedy and underdog stories within themselves aren't necessarily negative.
I honestly give it to the Hashira. Them dudes is superhuman. And really fast not to mention durable.
no nobody in ds can survive the nuke from the colossal titan and that’s what they open with when they attack as a squad of 9
@@Tissuestrashnigga talking about a suicide move😂 can’t do that with everyone standing there
@@Tissuestrash if they can even transform before they're dead. by the time they even realize they're on the battlefield, their head is gone.
@imnotsanii Eren has the advantage of time. No way he's letting a Hashira decapitate him without a plan. With the other 8, he's unstoppable
@@Tissuestrashthey can outrun that explosion. Hashira are way faster then lightning and lightning is multiple times faster then a combustion
Bro Mark's argument is over when Armin or Bertholdt drop a whole ass nuke when they transform 🤣
i love these podcasts man, keep them coming please
It’s truly a good day when Rdc drops a video
I love attack on titan and Rdc ... keep up the good work yall
John probably has the best understanding of ranking. Black and white movies are being ranked as greatest of all time still to this day and they're writing was not where it is today in some places.
I'd actually argue writing in movies has gotten worse compared to back then.
@@bofi1280 absolutely
John won this argument to me, here some old bangers Case Closed, Lupin the 3rd, Astro Boy
They don’t kno about Astro Boy
One hashira against a Titan that can become a nuke is an insane back and forth
Ik the hashria would speed blitz the shi out of dem 😂
@@r..e7045no they wouldn’t bro. One hashira cant solo the 9 shifters. Not a single one of them will be able to survive armin transformation they fast but not that fast Nigga it takes armin seconds to transform.
@@dzciple4931 hashria literally move faster then a blink of an eye and light speed if u didn’t know fo, they for sure is gonna be perfectly fine
@@dzciple4931nahhh they prolly gonna cut through the blast some crazy plot feat 😂
@@r..e7045😂😂😂 You are baiting so mf hard please
We need a back and forth episode every week Ngl 💯 No one else on TH-cam actually talks about anime like y’all do… I enjoy it a lot shii I’ll actually pay for these episodes
They always argue on twitch ngl, but it don't hit the same as an organized podcast
Dragon ball z and attack on Titan are two objectively different anime that are looking to accomplish different things one story is about a savior that comes through despite all odds while the other is about people looking for a savior in the wrong person which in turn fucks them over one is allowed to be more simpler due to the premise but dragon ball z story and world building isn’t close to being as bad as you guys were saying in the video. The world of dragon ball is more expansive and complex as opposed to attack on Titan where you only saw a handful of races and only explore two countries. Attack on Titan had a more in depth story because it was a more grounded series while dragon ball z is fantasy so they are allowed to do whatever they want however because toriyama wrote his characters so well along with creating a great power system the story is still entertaining and the manga actually is developing into a great story. Also impact is important considering the fact almost all current anime draw inspiration from dbz so that means dbz did something right. Dbz is top five because it is a great show point blank period
Thank you bruh I couldn’t get it out and attack on titan has impact with the transformation that’s it idc maybe 3d gear and swords
Facts!!! Preaching my fellow universe 7 warrior 💪💯
If we’re talking most influential than Dbz should be there but we’re talking greatest all time. I feel impact shouldn’t play a factor because that to me is a lazy reason that overshadows shows that hit all the beats of a truly amazing show. I feel dbz has better characters truly like Vegeta, Piccolo, teen Gohan, future Trunks , Dbz Goku. But other than that, it can be controversial on whether story plots are good or if it’s paced well. Attack on Titans story can be nitpicked for mistakes but all the story beats are there from the very beginning and everything comes full circle from the very first episode. I really admire Isayama because he thought out the show completely and every moment is necessary in each episode , no filler really . If we’re comparing the two shows against each other, it should be AoT without a doubt objectively , but if we look at it emotionally , then I can understand completely why ppl would say DBZ. But in a true top five list, saying that impact is a factor is lazy reasoning for why dbz should be there. It can be up there, but not with that explanation.
@@wel0219 ok but if you read my explanation impact wasn’t my only reasoning it was just my last reason lol
Dbz and Aot are gonna be in my top 5 I can admit, is nostalgia bias on z but AOT I truly think it’s the top 5 anime
Le and Dylan are tripping on the Titan argument
Mark’s reactions to how bad these people got rugged in both arcs is hilarious
I hate that I was under the influence of some Guinness and I totally spoiled the AoT ending for myself by not skipping the segment. All good my fault gentlemen
Couldn’t agree more with the GoT take 100%. They had me dying “they started Covid”
Solid picks for Top 5
Mine would be Z, one piece, Naruto (should’ve ended at pain and then fought Sasuke after), cowboy bebop, and Attack on Titan. In the future it’s fringy regardless of the amazing story.
Great segment boys! Looking forward to the next one
I think to John's point, it is about the legacy and the impact it left the anime in general is what made DB a top 5 worth of anime.
The Game of Thrones analogy so accurate bruh like how u mess dat up 😭
I believe the demographic in 1980s, 90s would have been different. While the writing would have been good animes like Ghost in the shell, Kite, Blue Gender, Akira, Bubble Gum Crisis, Guyver, and Gundam were being put out.
The market was saturated with war themes, giant battles, and dark themes. I think Attack on Titan would have found it hard to differentiate itself during that time.
Also, isn't one of the reasons attack on Titans became so popular in the west was due to its initial comparison to the Walking Dead (I may be wrong on this). The time AOT and DBZ came out matters.
If Dragonball came out today, it wouldn't be the dragon ball of 1980s but a completely different story to match the current standard of writing.
I think back to 2013 when attack on Titan came out and the kind of like touching portion genres that it would fit into would be Mecha, zombie-ish, thriller, survival anime. And you're absolutely right compared to animes from the '80s and '90s, there were a lot darker more mature animes that were really popular.
But one thing I will say is if DBZ never came out animes these days would have gone in a different direction in terms of popularity. The martial arts, the fight scenes, moving soo fast you can't see them, the power ups, the transformers, the slight comedic relief, the "found family" values. Dragon Ball did a lot for anime's.
@fattygamer94 Absolutely agree. Actually, the Big 3 wouldn't exist. Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach were influenced in some way by either DB or Akira Toriyama himself.
I ageee with John cuz if AOT came out in 90/80s I don’t think would have been as known or even impactful as Dragoo ball. Because all of the things and shows that pop out during that time, doesn’t fit attack on titan moto or style. Plus most big and successful anime’s wax 300+ eps and I think pacing and story would have change just a little bit of AOT as well as its animation during the 90’s
Y'all keep saying but super come out in modern time so no
Agreed the formats and the direction of anime at that time were totally different would have been harder to stand out in that mix. DBZ created their mix and from that they spawned a whole genre. AOT is a Top 10 but I can’t say top 5 I’m a long time anime watcher and I’m not discrediting pass work for current work.
Trying to follow a John explanation has to come toe to toe with like the greatest human feats ever performed. Man is all over the place.
With the podcast era growing and being prominent rn. Idk why y’all don’t do more back and forths. I understand that coming up with ideas could be difficult but just hire someone to do that for y’all.
Fax I’m 100% sure they can hire me or you or almost half the fan base who wouldn’t want to listen to these back and forths and help create them
they probably don't have the time
“Just hire someone” usually means things change
@@IAMvonte-2518 faze
Mark got a memory that makes it tough for people to debate if they ain’t on they toes…
AoT would be my all time favorite series, something I can watch over and over again. There's no filler/no unfinished plot points/characters I love/and a super bleak and bitter sweet tone throughout it all. I've loved series such as Breaking Bad/The Boys/Sopranos/Game of Thrones/House of The Dragon/Avatar ect ect alongside a few popular animes.. But nothing has made me hold my mouth open for an entire episode/jump out of my seat/hold my hands up and get super emotional like AoT does.. This entire series just flows, every scene has meaning towards character growth or the story at hand. And it ended just perfectly, everything that was laid out before through various seasons all comes together and its just a masterpiece.
The ending was perfect? Take the Rose tinted glasses off.
@@cdh6339 it's perfect for the story it's telling 100%. To a point where I'd give it a 10/10 for the series as a whole. I'm fully satisfied with it.. I don't get that with most series.
Can you nit pick super minor details? Sure.. but you can in every piece of media.
@@traviscue2099i don't think 20 different plot holes that make the story retarded can be called minor details
@@cdh6339it is perfect, 10/10. Eren did what he wanted to save his love ones and keep peace for hundreds of years to come. The rumbling was the only way. Just like Doctor Strange seeing all possibilities, there was only 1 outcome and that’s what we saw. It’s a realistic ending like Isayama say. Masterpiece
@@traviscue2099agreed, facts, truth.
You can‘t put nostalgia into the mix yet. Attack on Titan just finished but lemme tell you the way how we‘re gonna feel nostalgic when rewatching Aot in 35 years showing it our kids when they old enough finna hit HARD. So I agree with Dylan as well
True
Claymore came out in 2007, but Claymore is pretty much "90s AoT" and it didn't take off after Season1. You read the manga and see it is a severely underrated series, and on par with AoT in multiple aspects. The general interest isnt ever consistent. People liked different things across different points in time.
Everyone needs to remember that DBZ was WAY ahead of it’s time (aired in the early 90s) and it’s still Top 5… The longevity is CRAZY
wasn't it a 80's series? dbgt was air in 1996.
@@jdennis867 yeah z came out around 1989 so i just said early 90’s
Facts Dragon Ball Z also influenced a lot of these top animes that are being released today that even other anime creators admit they were influenced by Dragon Ball Z. Akira Toriyama of Dragon ball series was and is ahead of his times.
Quite surprised to find a comment like this. Alot of the times DBZ gets unnecessary hate
@@iAmLindooh ye cuz db began in like 1884 (anime in 1886)
Will add, Jean and Mikasa wasn't necessarily random, it was teased throughout the show that Jean himself had a crush on Mikasa, Mikasa just never paid him any mind cause she was tunnel vision on Eren lol
It was jean? I thought it was Mikasa in the grave.
@@donnynguyen7212in the grave? Yes but they mean them being together
Thats some 6th grade type shitty romance 😂
its still ambiguous depending on how you interpret the ending. there's a chance its not jean or is.
@@693gamefreakin the manga it’s Jean if I’m not mistaken
John just talks in circles and won’t just admit that the argument/discussion is lost
AoT will stand the test of time. Unique, engaging story, memorable as hell characters and damn near every one of them MATTERED to the story progression... and JJK shaping up to be top 5 for sure.
Agreed but I don’t think it’s top 5 tho
@@riley4872what’s ur top 5
@@riley4872 Whats yours?
JJK flopped hard after Shibuya
@@skynight4540You are bugging to say it "flopped hard" after shibuya. The most you can say is its aight or that you just dont like it. Jjk is still good after shibuya.
I don’t think competition was low back when DBZ was out because you had Akira , and berserk was both doing big number’s back in the day !
Yea I think DYL and a little of Mark was just trynna lowball dragonball😂 because even bezerrk a lot fans of that show think that’s one of the best anime’s written all time and it came out back then during that time
I just wanna say for the titans we have definitely seen scouts ride on horseback and it’s a pretty similar speed.
Those horses are moving quick af tho
@@Thejpbros8 still just horses bro
In my opinion, how impactful and influential an anime is, the more successful it is over anything else.
Mark trying debate that 1 hashira can beat the 9 titans is crazy 😭😭😭
Ngl it’s not that crazy cuz he convinced me 💀. If Levi can do it there’s no reason a hashira can’t. And I think Dylan downplaying they speed heavy Rengoku was MOVING in that movie
@@tuff360how do thy reach the Titian neck
@@tuff360 Dude it the 9 titans though it ain't the regular kind afaik there wasn't scene where levi take on all 9 of the titans; he need help to take on three of them at the same time.
@@tuff360 rengoku is not winning a 1v9 against niggas with regeneration hardening and random powers
what could rengoku do when the colossal nukes his ass tho@@tuff360
THIS IS MY ALL TIME FAVOURITE RDC SERIES!!
I would prefer the discussions to be shortened so more can fit into video though
What he is not understanding about DBZ is that if it would have flopped when it came to the States no other networks would have taken a risks of putting any other animes on their networks and we probably wouldn't have been introduced to any other animes. Also DBZ protagonist is used in every anime that came out after it.
All the antagonists in Z just wanna fight or eviI. That archetype was way before Z.
@@Replies.Delete.SometimesIDKy I understand it was my fault autocorrect changed my text I meant protagonist not antagonist.
DBZ wasn’t in my top 5 but damn Jon makes some good points. DBZ is the reason why we have so many good anime’s today. Transformations, power systems etc
Ain't top 5
@rais6036 it's top 5
Saying dragon ball pacing is terrible but loving one piece is crazy to me when they have the longest arcs in anime then saying the story is trash but Naruto’s is good when they are damn near the same a goofy main character who main goal is just to be strong to get respect with a best friend who’s on the fence of good and evil and both lost their whole race and the the MC learns from someone respected n known by everyone but the MC in both shows the 2 MCs end up with a girl who fit perfectly with the other MC it’s so much more similarities bro it makes no since to say that it’s writing isn’t good as the other shows and not only that in the ending of shippuden vs super’s super has way more potential even though boruto is cool and has potential supers ending literally gave a option for them to have more universal conflict and we haven’t even seen all the sayin kids full potential yet the only problem is that dragon ball doesn’t continue with the show and I started watching anime like 3 years ago and I enjoyed the dragon ball series especially super more then aot I thinks it’s just a difference in taste aot writing is okay to me but it just seems like it was forced to me because I love a good twist but the show has so many twist and so much of the plot seems unnecessary like it could’ve been left out and the show would still have been fine
And before someone tried to cook me I like all three shows just can’t see the points they made about db
I didn’t fw aot spamming twist and as I was listening I noticed that’s the reason they think the story isn’t written well that’s 1000% a taste thing not everyone wants a twist every ep thats why the ending is controversial wasn’t what people wanted
Naruto wasn’t trying to be sasuke’s friend. Naruto was trying to save sasuke because they ARE friends.
You completely misunderstood Naruto and DBZ and the AOT twists aren’t random or forced, they’re built in from the very first episode and so forth but aye at the end of the day it really is just a taste thing. Go enjoy what y’all what.
For me personally after the wait for season 2 and all the payoffs after watching that season made aot one of my favorite anime’s of all time the Reiner and berthold reveal is still my favorite scene in the show
the guts to just casually reveal reiner and bertholdt reminded me of the aizen reveal in bleach. most anime would make the reveal some huge climactic thing, maybe end the chapter/episode with it, and aot was just like btw here lol
Mark & John are VASTLY overrating the speed scale in Demon Slayer. All of the effects are just to show how powerful they are to regular humans; they're not meant to be taken literally. Hashiras are basically the peak of human performance, barely superhuman. They're like Captain America or Iron Fist. They could kill some pure titans, but the nine titans together would wreck they shit.
"Best vs most impactful" I think is a different. The iPhone analogy was spot on.
The colossal titan explosion alone would kill every demon slayer
Dbz has a story to it, no it’s not complex but to sit there and say there were no plot is crazy to me. It was very consistent. Yeah the the android and buu saga has its up and downs but the story is consistent. People be sleeping on akira.