Want Subwoofer Performance? You MUST understand Hoffman's Iron Law
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Many of you are likely familiar with the "Iron Law" for performance cars: Fast, Reliable, Cheap... You can only have two. A similar law applies to the design of speakers and enclosures, and since I know how much you all love subwoofers, in this video we will be discussing how to get the best subwoofer performance, using "Hoffman's Iron Law". You see we have three items: Box Size (Compactness being ideal), Speaker Efficiency (Sensitivity), and Low End Extension. You only get to pick two! Let's discuss!
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QUESTION FOR YOU GUYS!: After watching this video what two categories are important to you of the following? 1) Low end 2) Efficiency 3)Box Size?
Want to learn more about the mistakes that can hurt bass performance? Watch here: th-cam.com/video/hXOnkOXvznI/w-d-xo.html
▼ Here are some of my build playlists:
Project Jeep Build: goo.gl/kx6MvW
Custom A Pillars Build: goo.gl/9opzoy
Simple Door Pods: goo.gl/jPpKGB
Custom Sub Box: goo.gl/bzZPwl
Underseat Fiberglass Sub Box: goo.gl/OBbUwH
Fiberglass Door Pods: goo.gl/oAdrx1
1, for me low end is the most important thing beacuse i listen to decaf alot.
18s and 6th order bandpass blowthrough.
Small boxes are for leased cars and high school sophomores 🤣
Low end and Box Size! Great video!
1&2
1,2 for me
this is what the car audio community needs, we need to mature this hobby so newcomers... like my self can jump in and not leave because they couldn't find anyone who could teach them something without contaminating the information with there own biases
Man dude, you are so freaking awesome. You always explain everything in Detail and in such a well manner that everyone understands it. 😎
Thanks bro
@@Karl-pu5cn XD
@@Karl-pu5cn lol 🤣🤣🤣
Jose Luis Ruiz amen!
The does explain extremely well. However there are a lot of people who choose not to understand.
The best subwoofer is the one you can afford to give a proper home to.
Jordan Murray are you stupid or dumb
If you mean a wood box with an amp youre right
Subwoofers that manages to put SPL and SQ in the same sentence for a reasonable price are my favorite like Skar Audio and B2 audio for example. JL 12W7s, Rockford Fosgate T2 13, or Focal SUB12WM are nice and all but, will completely crush my sound system budget and not be able to afford the stuff that is needed to make the subwoofer work let alone adding in speakers and a 4 channel amp to complement the subwoofer on top of that. However I don’t mind spending up to 1500 dollars on a very nice system that is has better sound quality than Bose and also louder than any stock sound system with DIY installation. I’m not so crazy with SPL but as long as the midbass, mids, and highs are around 110dB and sub bass is around 128 decibels, I am happy. I desire sparkling crisp highs, clean forward mids, and tight punchy bass. I like sealed enclosure because they block any mechanical noise and the bass notes in hi tech Psytrance sounds separated instead of smeared together.
@@KD-os7kv that is the best wingman joke I've seen in a long time... 🤣
facts
When I buy a car or truck it is always with stereo in mind. Love those lows
My cars gotta have a big trunk. Absolutely
"irun law" lol thanks for the great content!
Amen brother! Truer words have never been spoken. This video should be compulsory viewing for anybody interested in beginning car audio.
You can have both SQ and SPL
with 2 cars ;)
I wonder how many people are actually clicking the "show more" button before they click like :) Hopefully people understand the point here.
CarAudioFabrication hell me, got me with the "Show More" chuckled at the punchline. Deserved "like"
This are the dumbest comments people post when I see them one line of sentence then click to read more i know the comment have no point or make any sense so i just passed thru ignoring it finding a more efficient comment something helpful
Dude! Hilarious! I love the little "catch" at the end of your comment! LOL
Love it.have a" like" good sir.
My enemy is Subwoofer cancellation especially in trunk cars. Hard to find a proper location of the box when you're limited in space or it just doesn't look right to the eye.
mustang6035 I had this problem with my rear deck cancelling out my dual comp R's, those backwaves can be a bitch. I just reversed the polarity on the rear deck coaxials and all the bass came back and more.
Back when I was first married ('87) and still had no money... I once had a 100 wt/ch (30 clean) and two 8" woofers I adapted to 4x10 holes and a sealed back mid and tweeter sitting up aimed forward, and made custom x-over, oh, I paralleled with separate xover the front speakers (so I had no F&R control) as all but the woofers were 8ohm so I had 3.5" full range with high pass filter for the front. All were rated 96db/m/w or more and I could get 113 dB in the car... plenty loud and super clean... all for about $200-250. really good bass, clean highs and clear mids... Then folks wanted me to help them.
Spot On! Good lecture. Everyone has different goals for their systems whether they fully understand those goals or not. For me my goal is to have super good SQ. I don't really care about SPL therefore the sweet spot for my setup is about 95-105 db. It can easily reach 129 db but looses SQ at that level.
Big Adventure I’ve always been an sq guy. I’ve built systems in the early 90’s such as you described. My sweetspot was around 110db. I built my step son’s system with sq in mind as well. I’m in the process of designing my next system for my 2006 Impala which the trunk is almost identical to Mark’s.
I love Car Audio Fabrication.
I went for efficiency and low end! 😁
After learning how to use winisd, this is exactly the results!, good to have the words for it 😂
I remember back in the 80s. Rich kids would drop a thousand dollars in their car stereo and get pissed when I blew them away. All I had was a 100W amp and 4 15W home speakers in the back seat. My secret - those home speakers were rated 101Db sensitivity, and I cut out all the bass below 50Hz, so I would not blow them.
These rich kids were buying expensive subs that got great low end extension at the expense of SPL. Then they would get pissed that my cheap system designed for SPL is so much louder than theirs. Even better was that I could pull speakers out of the back seat and put them on the ground or roof and we would have good sound while at the swimming hole, or outdoor party - all the mids and treble was not confined to the cars interior. And since there were 4 of them, I could point 2 in one direction, 2 in another and cover a huge area. Peeps liked it.
Back then, we had these FM boosters that actually worked - and lasted years. Every FM booster I see today are designed like shit, don't work, or can't survive more than a year or two in a car. It's why most people don't even bother with them anymore.
I still get a kick out of systems that have high pass filters on their subs. That's the wrong place for it. Such filtering should be placed before the amplifier, not after. Putting a filter after the amp is just making the amp do work you don't even want. All your equalization should happen before amplification. Even some crossovers should be before amplification if you have a separate amp for subs.
so you cut out all the best low notes to keep from blowing your cheap speakers. the low B on a 5 string bass is 30.87 hz. sacrificing accuracy for volume sounds like shit most of the time. but then most people are about half tone deaf anyway.
It's crazy how inexpensive and clean amplifiers have become! You can get a build a decent system for $500 today! yeah?
I had the 4x8" Pyles in a cabinet in my 83 Supra with a 100w Alphasonik pushing them w/ passive crossovers! I was dead in the water. Back in the day it was MC hammer clean using the Kenwood amps or Dirty with Flea market Pyramid 400w with the 50bd s/n!
Tekboy 808 dude did you even understand his comment when you read it? He said shit like “rich kids” and “swimming hole” obviously he was referring to his earlier years in life. Who knows how long ago that was. You didn’t even fully comprehend his statement before you jumped on the hate wagon putting him down to make yourself feel superior. If anyone is a child it’s you. Unable to fully understand sentences, jumping to conclusions and only spewing negativity. Did someone hurt you a kid or something dude? Just cause the world is going to shit doesn’t mean you have to add to it. Hopefully you have a change in mind and heart so that way you won’t spread your ignorance onto the next generation. Don’t bother replying I won’t read it haha. Be kind. You catch way more bees with honey the vinegar. Just Incase you needed to hear this. You are loved. 😉
He said in the 80's. I think we can all agree that car audio, hell audio in general has come a long way since then.
He was making a point just like the video did, he picked loud and cheap. That means he gave up small and far low end Hz.
@@jamesdewer those good ol flea market subs. just doing it for the love of music
Thank you! I'm building out my truck and small boxes are all I can use. You probably just cost me a few extra pennies, but I understand what I'm looking for now. Well explained video.
I'm coming from a home audio perspective, so everything is optimized. Compact is the last measure, otherwise I'd design an enclose similar to a Klipschorn. 115db- 1w/1m. Unfortunately its an 11cf box. Ha!
eh... mine take up my entire attic...but boy is the low end and efficiency amazing xD
I currently have option #1 & #3 with
2 sundown 10’s and I’m satisfied, as my shirt sleeves move with every bass note 🎼
Not wanting to lose a bunch of trunk space, I'll presumably focus on (sealed) box compactness in a non-rectangular enclosure. Once I have the boxes built I'll need to figure out the volume of the odd shapes and look into 10" subs that'll work in them. This was a great reminder video; thanks as always!
Thanks for watching and being a part of the Patreon membership team!
My sub stage is a Stereo Integrity hstmk12ll, it is in a 15 inch baltic birch double walled cube, yielding around 1cuft sealed, powered by am Incriminator Audio 3rd gen IA20.1 at 1ohm. The efficiency for the sub is rather low, 83.7, but I must say that all that have heard my system are not only amazed that there is just one sub, but how tiny the enclosure is as well. I had a very reputable builder/installer tell me that he would not put my sub in a box that small, even after I showed him that the builder of the sub stated the proper size box for the sub. The specs for the sub call for a .6cuft sealed enclosure, and mine is about .55cuft after displacement. I plan on paying him a visit, so that he may hear what it sounds like in such a, I will use his wording here; tiny enclosure.
My simple solution: a subwoofer which is loud and goes low and is connected with a trailer-plug. I can disconnect it in the rare cases when i need the space which it normally occupies. So i can have it all without breaking your law by jumping between the categories any time as i need.
Great video. Never heard of Iron Law until now. Reminds me of the Iron Law when it comes to wheels. Strength, price, and weight. You can have wheels with excellent strength and low cost, but they're typically very heavy which hampers performance. Then you have lightweight wheels that are strong but very expensive. So on and so forth.
Same thing applies to cars: reliability, powerful/performance, & low price point. You can have 2 of any the 3 things but never all 3
Edit: replied to comment before watching the video where he actually talks about this exact same theory lmao
I'm glad I watched this video. I have a new 2021 Ford Bronco getting built next month, and I chose the high package which means I'll be getting the standard 6 speaker setup. I'll be getting (4) 4 1/2 Inch speakers 2 front / 2 rear with (2) 6-Inch Mids in the Front Kick panels. I knew I would be replacing all (6) speakers with upgraded components as soon as I pick up the vehicle. But, I also wanted to add a Subwoofer. However, I wanted to add the Subwoofer in the Rear Side panel, just like it would be had I chose the Lux package. Since that's a relatively small enclosure, I would guess I'd go with Compactness and Efficiency, since crystal clear sound / mid-level bass is the most important for my setup.
CarAudioFabrication... Any recommendations for Box design that would fit the same location as the 2021 Ford Bronco Lux Package / Bang & Olufsen Sub placement?? I would also be happy to purchase a box design from you, if you have one available for that particular location...
I always said that at the shop. Speed (install time), quality, and price... Pick 2
Hoffman’s iron law, the foundational bit of knowledge that any system builder needs to properly build any audio system. Good job for this video, for what ever reason automotive sound technician are usually the last to get this little tidbit.
Cat 1&2 all day. “If” I was going to build a stereo vehicle, I would buy a vehicle specifically for the stereo, not buy a car/truck and then put a stereo in it. I would buy a Dodge Grand Caravan or Chevy express cargo van so I would have room to house the box. Great videos my friend. It’s always nice learning new ideas and knowledge about stereos.
Learning this law gives me more clear understanding on what to follow. Thanks for the learning as always. Bless you and be safe good sir
I had two Alpine type S 10’ back in 2010, they were in a HUGE ported downfiring box in my Ford Escort, sharing 200 watts. They played the lows so good and barely used any power, the huge box was very necessary
I have a stereo integrity hst12mkll, in 15 inch double walled sealed cube, yielding .55cuft after displacement. It does very well from about 90hertz down to about 10hertz. But it's efficiency is 83.7hertz, and it is ran on a incriminator audio ia20.1 at 1ohm. So it goes along with what you stated in this video, less efficient, but more power to be able to utilize the compact enclosure. It is articulate, deep, and what a friend of mine calls; substantial bass. The hst12mkll is designed to be run in .6cuft sealed.
So before you buy anything for the system of your compromise it's always important to make plans to know what you end goals are and the space that you are working with... always remember that power management is highly important to the success of any system install with short term and long term goals seen when plotting the foundation to your system... this part is super important when understanding that you will at one point want an upgrade...
So in the spirit of your #1 and #3 analogy, having a small space and wanting low extensions (accurate sound), what are some examples of subwoofers that will do this? I am particularly looking for "shallow" mount subs (
I have never heard anyone pronounce Iron as "I Rin" instead of "Iyern" or "Airn" I was genuinely shook trying to figure out what the hell he was trying to say lol
Keldren Raze I’m still trying to get over “cumpactness”
That's like how Britt's pronounce aluminum aloe min ium
@@jameslewis974 A-lu-min-ium, just like the way its spelt. "Aluminum" Does not exist anywhere except America. Standard naming for elements is to end in "ium". Even TH-cam auto corrects to aluminium, you tool. I bet you would argue that "solder" should be pronounced "sodder". American English is a child's version of English English.
So, if I want low frequency and a small box, I need to put a ton of wattage to it.
I do not care about how loud it gets.
I will also only be able to use a shallow sub, probably one from JL.
I actually remember this car stereo review back in the 90s or early 2ks. This guy had 3 10w6s and used actuators to open and close a false back to create a variable sized enclosure depending on what type of performance he was looking for.
My JL audio microsub 8.3 setup does all 3 😂😂😂a trio of 8"s that eatoff a 1500.1d in a compact box. It hits 30hz which is plenty for me especially for 8s. It's not super loud to shake the block or car apart but it has the best balance of everything .
And to do all that requires 500 watts per sub, which isn't terribly efficient. Hoffman's law still stands
Thanks, Low extension and efficiency is best for me.
Same
I can tell you in the Pro Audio subs I have built we focus on efficiency and low end, enclosure size is basically our last consideration; lots of 4th and 6th order designs.
Thank you for explaining. Would you do a video to show us HOW to choose the right subwoofer and box for our desired optimizations? Specifics, like the Thiele Small subwoofer parameters. I want to know how to choose the right subwoofer and enclosure. Thanks
Still building my SPL/SQ build on a 20 corolla hatch…
Sucks I have to wait for a better alternator
But I’m content for now till the build is complete
the best subwoofer set up is the one that fits in your space and that you can afford.
if you have a big subwoofer 10 inch or bigger, then you can get a wider frequency response, a small subwoofer like 6.5 inch, it will roll off on the low frequencies, because it's optimal box size is smaller, and if you want lows you need a bigger box, as a big subwoofer you can stick it in an optimal or smaller box, and it will still play all the frequencies the box allows it to, where as the small subwoofer in an optimal box will not have the same low frequency response... due to physics, bigger enclosure will always give you more low bass.... so if you have a 15 inch subwoofer, you can get 30hz bass in medium size box, but you can still play bass up to 100hz or higher, to get that guitar string bass or for jazz listening, with a 6.5 inch subwoofer try make it play 30hz in a larger box,... bigger than optimal..... and it will struggle to make bass above 60hz... it will sound hollow
I had 4 kicker solobaric 10" in a C4 corvette in a sealed box. It rattled the car to pieces. Similar to a folded horn because the rear glass curved forward to completely make the car into an enclosure. I can't imagine why anyone would need louder or lower. It was quite accurate too. It played fairly flat to about 24 hz. I estimate 150db. Enough to choke you and make you hold your breathe from the pain.
Larry Keller I have a single kicker l7 15 in my rsx and it's a beast... 4 cube ported box tuned to 30hz... Very clean sound and gets low... Love it
Someone I know used to have 2 15s on a rockford power 650 mosfet in a c4 corvette, and before he had 4 10s with a power 300 mosfet, in the c4 corvette
Avraj Samra I had 2 12 inch Rockford fosgate hx2s in a forth order back in the day... They were nasty... They could still compete with the new stuff today and hold their own
James Alexander yeah rockford is badass, i have 2 old school pch-108’s in a sealed box used to be my dads system and damn those things hit pretty good and they still work after almost 30 years
How did he fit 2 15's in the C4?!? I could barely fit the 4 10" Solobarics in a sealed box in mine. I also had 4 PPI amps, Dual Batteries, 180 amp alternator, 16 total Speakers, all electronically crossed over. The mids and highs could play over 130 db without the subwoofers (A weighted)... Severe Tinnitus is the result.
im using a Rockford T0 15" in a 4.25 cu' box with only 250 watts and it sounds great (I have a JL 1000/1 V2 that needs repair) so 1 & 2
If it's 250 realistic watts then it's actually a significant amount of power, so I'm not surprised that it performs well. 15" subs also tend to have a high sensitivity and don't necessarily need a lot of power to play loud.
So a cheat might be two subs build differently or a mid low end tie in to cover all three, so one would be one & three ,the second would be three & two & the mid would cover one & two, would using larger mid's with individual box designs give you the best of all worlds
I'm considering an 8" t-line for depth, with a sealed 12" for boom, and 2 door/sealed 8" tuned for upper bass/low mids...80-200hz? 3 amps, then run sets of 6" components off the deck.
Trouble is, this is for an El Camino (68-72), not an SUV or wagon...
Suggestions?
I wish he was close enough to do my install
When you spoke about optimisation and trade-off I was thinking about my old, pre 2000 Fiat Panda I drove. Which has a sort of a hammock where otherwise the dashboard would be. You'll have to Google the interior pictures. Because of the hammock the speakers where facing your ears (you could buy cheap speakers with enclosures that fitted right in to that hammock). After I changed those speakers for some second hand Focal 3" speakers, which have a high sensitivity. Powered by just the car radio (Pioneer). And installed an under-seat woofer. I seriously had an expierence like listening to my dad or brothers old home stereo systems as an kid. That I forgat all about through the years of computerspeakers and all that. Found my love for that sound again in that little car.
Got another car. Speakers have to be in the doors and in the dashboard, facing upwards to the front window. Bought an 6,5 compo set, same brand. An proper amp (mxr rt60). Properly wired. Same under-seat woofer. Still nowhere near the sound I had in that little car. (Though admittedly I still should make a proper fix for my tweeters. Some day. As well as some door treatment.)
The small size of the car itself, small speakers facing the right way made for a real nice, full sound. Balanced, rich, phat. Even though it was just a small, silly car with a relatively cheap sound system.
Could have been any brand btw. Made a list than of speakers I was interested in and these where simply the first I found for sale. The guy who bought them said they had to much depth for his doors. Because of the hammock I had no such problem. (The guy owning this channel wouldn't have any problem fixing any speaker to any door btw ;). But anyway the speakers didn't let down. Which I doubt any of those brands I thought off would have. Just to say I don't want to promote anything. Besides good speakers in general that is! :)
Nice channel. And thanks. Been watching on and off for years already. Take care..
Sorry for typos and weird grammar.
My kind of bass is the one that kicks hard and fast, not the one that stumble into the stage half a beat after the rest of the music.
Small box, 10 inch woofer and a powerful amplifier. Of course that low 20 hz rumble that shakes your spine is also nice, but when the beat goes bananas and the woofer reminds of a jackhammer... DAMN!!
so more rock ,country and most EDM tracks is your choice sad part for me is i enjoy a wide range of music but my primary genres of music is Death metal & Hip hop with low to mid range bass and yeah
Erik Britz I saw a picture on facebook a few years ago that described it perfectly:
My taste in music is anything from "Hey, you've gotto listen to this!" to "Please don't judge me..."
So almost anything except jazz, blues and death metal.
The stumble you're describing is incompatibly between box and sub. Ie, a mismatch between sub and box size.
OxBlitzKriegxO No... That stumble was because the amplifier was too cheap and not powerful enough. The amplifier didn't have enough power to send to the sub in time, and when the power first got there, the internal capasitors wasn't powerful enough to pull it back...
Mal Reynolds Yep, my small box was also sealed.
THAT WAS......AWESOMELY COOL.
Im a noob and wanted all these answers for my new SUB.
Hats🎩 off to you sir.
🔊 🔊
Years ago, an Australian T.V. show which aired from the early-mid 1980's, "Beyond 2000", had a segment about the perfect speakers. These were gas/powered speakers and virtually reproduced all sounds perfectly. The trade off though, being the eighties, was the expense of running them. I would presume, even running them today, it would be similarly or even more expensive and not something a person would do unless money was no object. As for perfect sound reproduction, the search still continues....
This is an extremely valuable synopsis for designing or assessing a design for a car subwoofer system. @CarAudioFabrication has provided multiple situational answers to the questions you ARE going to ask. I applaud this tutorial!
I gift you 1 internets.
I have 1 and 2, ihave a massive t line with two skar audio ix-8 on a alpine Mrv 1200. It gets crazy low and has a very nice frequency band. But like i said the box take up my entire cargo area😂
I'm considering an 8" t-line for depth, with a sealed 12" for boom, and 2 sealed 8" tuned for upper bass/low mids...80-200hz? 3 amps, then run sets of 6" components off the deck.
Trouble is, this is for an El Camino (68-72), not an SUV or wagon...
Suggestions?
I would say that the Image Dynamics ID Maxx subs take care of all three.SPL...SQ....Very Efficient...Normal Box Size depending on size of sub..Maybe thats why they are so expensive...Just my opinion...Plus they are made right here in the USA 🇺🇸
Yeah, I thought I had the answer to it untill I listened to the whole video. And it is absolutely true, most people can think they have all 3 when maybe their subwoofer ain't hitting so low as they think or maybe is not covering the whole sub bass range or maybe they are giving it a whole lot of power. People often see low end systems with amps rated at insane watts of power. I personally made the mistake of thinking a very cheap 250 usd amp would outperform a very nice 2500 usd amp (until I realised the cheap amp was lying on its power rating and introduced noise quite easily).
Same happens with the live sound world, people will actually think their sony speakers from Costco are way more powerfull than 1 profesional 12", 2 way speaker because one said 75,000 watts on the sticker and the other is rated at 500 to 750 watts rms. (The pro speaker will produce 3 times the loudness of the other no questions asked and won't introduce distorsion or noise).
Funny, I spent FOREVER looking for a quality “Compact or Shallow” sub. I went with the JL 13TW5 and I’d say it buy far the best you can do with a small space. But yeah.. it cost. Lol
Lawrence Westberry the 13TW5’s are definitely an investment. Well worth the money you spend imo
Don't forget to cover hearing loss
Lmao....but what about the children?!
Don't forget to remove the warning labels and let the problem solve it's self. You can NOT change stupid!
A long time ago Kenwood gave free ear plugs with their equipment...
What? What’s that you are saying?
Proper value in this channel, thanks man.
Box size always getting me. I like trucks and fast cars so room is a premium because low bass is my second
This is exactly what I was looking for. I want more theory and details, explaining the differences and specific subwoofer parameters like different resonance, linear excursion and more.
th-cam.com/video/VDHhCsNoSpc/w-d-xo.html
Thank you so much, explanation videos like this is one of the reasons I subscribed to you. I heard of hoffman's law a while back and have been stuck forever trying to figure out what compromises I should make in my system. For my purposes it's all about low end, and box size. Thank you so much for the explanation!
Can you you make a video about free air subwoofer like the ones in factory systems?
No need to, they suck unless they have the cone area of, at minimum, two twelves.... but I've never seen that :)
Dont even waste your time and money on those series, unless you have a sub 5 feet in diameter..
Dont even waste your time and money on those series, unless you have a sub 5 feet in diameter..
you should have just a straight up woodworking channel. i would watch you buid random enclosures or tables or wahtever.
Yeah he should make a 2nd channel for that. I'd subscribe probably
I run a vocational program. Occasionally some of my students want to build a speaker box. I always show them your channel. I know that I have re-learned how to use a router in building. Before it was just for details.
Please can you give your opinion on these particular brands that are readily available at most auto stores:
-Fly
-Vibe
-Edge
-Kenwood
-JBL
-JL Audio
-Bose
-Boss
They seem to be so popular but yet I never hear any professionals talk about them in particularly interested in the JBL/JL audio lines for a land rover.
Funny, I've just been finding this out this past week as I'm comparing specs on 10's and 12's for replacing my powered 10. Pioneer & Nakamichi have some 12's that handle mega watts, but have very low sensitivity! I usually go for efficiency and frequency response when selecting speakers of any kind, more than power handling. I can't imagine what it would be like to have 12's with only 77dB of sensitivity! That would seem like I'd really have to crank up the bass volume. Pioneer has the same model in a 10" that has a sensitivity of only 74dB! BUT, both those Pioneers, the 10's and the 12's, get the lowest frequency response and handle lots of power for their size, but also have the highest high frequency response up into the 2,000Hz range! I'm finding in my comparisons that the more efficient the sub, the less lows it gets. Just what you were saying in this video! SO... I'm worried that if I get a sub with 20Hz as their low end I'd be forced to buy one with low sensitivity. UGH! Sensitivity is my friend! My goal here is to find a 10 or a 12 for a small wedge-type box that will fit in my trunk on the back of my seat. I don't care about shaking houses around town, just nice bass guitar and bass drum beats. So I'm thinking sealed box. There are SO many things to consider when choosing a sub AND the right box that I'm losing my mind comparing stuff. I really, really like the Nakamichi NSWZ1206D4 12's, especially because of their ribbon wires and 3600 watt peak, but their F/R is only 45-1.5k with sensitivity of 84dB whereas the Pioneer Pioneer TS-A300D4 12's handle 1,500 watts and have a F/R of 20-2k but their sensitivity is only 77dB! Now I just have to figure out which type of box the different sub makes suggest for each model I'm looking at choosing from. All I know is your HOFFMAN'S IRON law makes a LOT of sense now that I'm looking at subwoofer specs! You can have one or two of those but never all three!
Outstanding presentation with the needed strong emphasis on tradeoffs. There is another emphasis you missed. The sound of the music/speech, etc, being emitted has coloration that is not subject to any evaluation except personal taste. The personal taste needs to be emphasized as another design tradeoff. This personal taste is as different as how some people like sweet and some like sour or some like hot and some like cold. These subtle differences in people can make a big difference. IE the Sub that creates low frequencies so low that the human ear must be 30 feet away from the speaker to hear the base note and yet some will love this remotely experienced base because it announces to your friends it's you, before you even arrive.
Awesome video. Everything was well explained. Except for sensitivity. What is the range? What is low and what is high?
What’s the range comparison between high and low sensitivity subwoofer specifications?
I'm going for a Sundown. SPL at high volume, SQ when turned down. Hahaha
Lol. Dosnt really work like that.
@@migascustomsounds3054 No, it does work, but you need a big box.
@@thorlancaster5641 I supposed it depends. A big box usually means u lose sq but I could do 2 subs and a labyrinth tuned to 30-35 hz depending on wat music u are goung to be playing. My Rockford t1s 12s do great with rock and bass songs from decaf. I make my own boxes.
@@migascustomsounds3054 Yeah, a box can have a nasty peak at the tuning frequency if it's too big for tuning. Even if it doesn't have a peak and is mostly flat down to 28 or so, the cabin gain will produce an overpowering low end that some people dislike (but I, and other bass heads, love).
There's also a chance of bottoming the woofer(s) out if your enclosure is too big and your subsonic is not adjusted right.
Thank you for all your info you upload. Nice to learn something new
Love my 15" mtx 9500. Haven't made a vid yet. Just been haven't thought about it lately. Will here in a few weeks. When my buddy comes down for vacation. Might have him or my girl record it on my phone.
Having a smaller box can actually increase bandwidth and keep cone control greater below tuning thus allowing for more low end
If you use the right sub.
@@CarAudioFabrication Thank you .
Eye-run laws for the win
I have recently been watching endless videos on car audio systems... Back in the late 90s I yes thought I was the the MAN on campus if you will. However, I have recently dove back into car Audio and NOPE I indeed was NOT the MAN! Coming to learn, I was not even... Anywho? I am stuck!!!! I have an 04 F150 SuperCab. I have somehow reignited the flame from when was younger, however so many things are lets say NEW to me. Keep it simple... I have an annoyingly large ported spec'd box where my back seat should be to play the subs I want to hear BANG! Yes, They hit hard and barely thru a break in cycle, NOW I also do have a few different 12s to play with. SPL? Sure! They get there. Other speakers sure, sounds clear, no amp. I attribute that to a fairly decent head unit (in my eyes) Kenwood DDX376bt. I potentially am turning this into a comp truck so using the bed to construct a box, etc. is in the upcoming future. Problem I have is I have all this STUFF and clearly am not negotiating it properly!!!! Had the underseat shallow mounts wasnt enough bass for me, which now brings me right back to big dumb spec'd box, with 2 SA V.2 12's and looks dumb as hell! For What? Bass? Yes, that is why I got them. I have been given a MUCH smaller box to be used as an AERO Port Box. Maybe, sure great... but I don't know a penny about that either.....
Sincerely want to know it all now and too fast!!! But gotta change cuz that BIG BLACK SPEC'd Box is driving me nuTzS!!!!
Hey team, just wondering if a subwoofer suggest its recommended enclosure to be 1.2cbf? Do i just double that spec if i wanted a custom enclosure with 2 of those subwoofers? Which will be a 2.4cbf enclosure? Im new to car audio and just wondering how that works, any help, cheers!
Low end for the maximum fun or box size for who needs that extra bass in a little space. Currently, i'm having fun with a single 500rms 12" tuned @24hz on a ported 74liter box 😁
Also.... The signal to noise ratio and frequency should always prepay attention to when pairing an amp to sub for especially people think just cuz you got a whole bunch of what's going to your sub that it's all right no I'll give you an old punch 150 and some 12-in Boss Gates and it didn't work when the wrong repair circuitry was used to fix the punch 150
Thats why i like the kicker s12 they Do a lot in a small box
The best subwoofer for me, is the Alpine S Type in a box i just got for $50...
What size is your type s?? Did you go ported or sealed enclosure?? I'm running a 10 type S with a ported box. But im thinking about switching to a sealed box. Just curious about your set up
Can you recommend me a sub? My priorities would be:
1. Low end extension
2. Price
Comoactness is a bonus, but price is more important
just my .02 but I feel like this video would have been more beneficial to me if youd talked more about what kind of numbers are typical for categories 1 and 2 but still a great video.
When it comes to all 3 , this law can get minimized with a effecient aero ported design in the sense of using Extremely low VAS subwoofers with powerful motors and strong coils ... so you have an overbuilt low qts/low VAS sub in a small box tuned low with an effecient aero port design for SPL . Alot of your monster daily 5k rms subs are built
With these aspects in mind .
but would'nt they have that "loose" bass because of their high group delay and also is xmax values of those babies high so no xmax distortion would ruin the cleanliness?
Sounds like a conversation my friend James, Dave and I have had for years, SQ vrs SPL. I’m and SQ guy, James is a SPL guy and Dave has been trying to do both for years.
This is exactly the point, you can optimize for SQ, or you can optimize for SPL. A lot of people think that you can also have the "BEST" of both worlds, and while you can have a combination of both that is enjoyable... It's not truly the "best" of both.
It's physics - the physics of sound waves! ;-)
i atleast want a lil bit of range i love deep but if i can compromise some power for more range then boom i'm up for it right now i'm doing home theatre build using PA mids and car audio subs and since i have space i'm don't have much of a limit box size wise so yeah i can go with whatever i like here big brute of a box pumping loud
So an infinite baffle will give you huge efficiency and low end extension? (But you’ve gotta be very, very careful with excursion max and avoiding amp clipping?)
Good stuff buddy. Thanks.
I'm sure most people on here know more than myself ... but with a 2016 Colorado Crew cab and the fact that I listen to all music. I think excepting the fact that I will need to spend some $$ due to space . I will pick
Efficiency
Box size
Guess I'm lucky kicker and Jl audio have the shallow mounts
1- 10" pushed perfectly with the recommended air space will work. Now the prob is I want to have the fun making the box. Thanks again.
1:30 LOL Yeah, that rule has been established for mountain biking, and road race bikes as well!!!
Sorry
You are obviously an engineer or a master of physics. Simply put, power usage aside, i want powerful low frequencies, 50hz and lower. Is it better to get two 8 in subs or one 15 in sub? If you could put it simply?
Thanks
Good video Mark! Do you feel like an infinite baffle install does a good job of covering all 3 things listed. I feel like infinite baffle installs are really underated for the amount of space saved.
ive been running an IB in my HT setup for about 17 years now... had to downgrade from a 800 watt amp to a 320w amp due to structural damage to the house :3
Awesome videos. Learning more than I bargained for. Trying to learn as much as I can so I can build my own system. There is so much to take into consideration. Personally I want sound quality as opposed to quantity. But I have a single cab pickup so it's proving to be tricky. Thanks for what u do man!
Now I am going to disagree with you on this as I come at this from a totally different point of view in that I am a mechanic by trade and scientist by my nature. Sensitivity is most important as the way dB are rated every 3 dB is a doubling in sound and since I am a mechanic I already know you really do not want to tax your car's charging system to the point it can no longer run anything else while the stereo is on. So, choosing the speakers bases on their efficiency saves the car's existing charging system from being over taxed. Over taxing the car's charging and/or electrical system will result in less miles per gallon of fuel needed to drive the same distance and thus more money out of your pocket all the while making your car a worse polluter on the road.
The increased strain puts more wear and tear on the engine, alternator, and battery. And it could make it so other parts of the car don't get the voltages they need to make the car run properly with today's electronically controlled vehicles which could cause spikes in the car's electrical systems potentially damaging other parts of the car's systems. Thus by focusing on efficiency you drop the need of getting a more beefier alternator and wires going into the alternator, you don't end up wearing out the battery prematurely, and you don't accidentally fry other parts of the cars electrical systems.
I use to always win the 300 and 500 watt class at the completions as they really didn't have to crank up the volume to get a lot of sound coming out of the speakers and it all sounded sharp and crisp with a really tight and accurate bass response.
You are a scientist by nature, yet claim that audio systems measurably affects MPG?
Running down the highway at ~70mph in a relatively small and efficient car (40mpg) consumes about 20kW, and in a large suv (say 25mpg), a bit over 30kW
A really beefy car audio system would be at ~1000W (systems above this are in the 0.1% range of users, and 1000 is a nice round number to work with).
Most music is dynamic, and not a sinewave, so even at maximum volume, you wouldn't run 1000W constantly, the average in the peaks would be ~1000W, but through the entire song it would be much less, even pop music which has terrible dynamic range will spend most of it's runtime at -3db, and in the bass where you pull the most power, pretty much only the beat in the song actually pulls any power, so I'll make an educated guess and say that average output in a song is about 25% of the maximum output - this is for a pop song with low dynamic range, better mastered music will have even lower averages.
So with a peak at 1000W, and an average at 25%, we are looking at somewhere around 250W continous draw at maximum volume.
Compared to the 20kW draw of running down the highway for a fairly small and efficient car, we are looking at a 1.25% increase in load, or an mpg drop from 40 to 39.5mpg
Even if you double the system power, and listen to hip hop with constant bass notes, for a constant 2000W draw - this still only means a drop of 3mpg in a small and efficient car, from 40 to 37.
Move these numbers to a larger SUV, and you drop from 25 to 23.5mpg - assuming you run at maximum volume for the whole hour, only listening to music with non-stop bass droning
If you listen to any sort of dynamic music, this difference has to be measured in tenths or hundreths of an mpg difference.
No, a scientist will not worry about fuel consumption or pollution from normal peoples large sound systems.
Yeah, someone somewhere is running a 20kW audio system, and cranking it - effectively halfing their mpg, and they will be deaf within the year.
But in most cases, no, it makes much, MUCH less difference than just relaxing your right foot - or avoiding driving in the rain, or any other of the hundreds of factors that influence MPG already. Just a 1psi drop in tire pressure will have roughly the same effect.
1&3 2016 ford ranger daily build in progress 🤞🏽😁🤞🏽
How to get low end extension with compact box? Like below driver seat. Thanks very good video!
Watch the video again , he explains it.
Get a very pricey sub and feed it a ton of power..pay attention to the video
Small sealed enclosure with tons of power and power handling.
Awesome video again.......from the fab kitchen 😜(that was for Doug). But seriously, I always go for the low end. Really love the low smooth bass. Thanks for all the informative videos.
Thank you! I have been waiting for someone to post a video on this topic! I have some questions of my own. I used to have my single 12” Sundown Audio in a box built to spec (2 cubic feet tuned to 35 Hz with sub back & port back) in a 2001 Toyota Camry. It KILLED the lows, peaking somewhere in the 30 Hz range, but the higher bass notes, such as the 50s, were not as prominent. When I moved the EXACT same setup into a 2004 4Runner, I noticed a massive decrease in the lows that I once had & loved in the Camry, but the higher bass notes - which I do not care nearly as much for - were more authoritative. I have tried moving my enclose into numerous different positions, but I have been unsuccessful in achieving the same kind of soul-shaking lows like I once had in the Camry. Like I mentioned, my current enclosure is built to spec, so do I need to build a different enclosure to achieve the same kind of lows? Would building an enclosure with the sub up and port back make a difference? Do I need to build an enclosure that is tuned lower? Do I need to add a second subwoofer? Or is there no way to work around the dynamics of the 4Runner? I really, really miss the lows I had in my Camry & am at a loss on how to get them back in the 4Runner, so any input would help! Thank you for your time & patience!
Hypercity well it was a ported enclosure which aren’t as accurate
The same thing happened when I went from a fit to a santa fe. Before I had it turned way down and it hit everything perfectly very flat curve with plenty of low rumble. That was a 10 with the port on the same side as the speaker. In the bigger car the volume was good for a lot of the frequency range I could still feel the lows but I guess the sound was getting canceled out down low. I was looking into box design and ended up going sub up port back and upgrading to a 12 at the same time so both probably helped but what a difference.
My enclosed will give me an airspace (squad ft )of 1.88ft for a single sub or 0.94ft for the deep of the sub is 10inch and I can easily put up to two 12inch sub, I already have a aftermarket radio with 2 sub output. I just don’t know which sub and amp should I choose
Clarification question about efficiency. When you say you have limited amplifier power, do you mean you cannot give the sub the manufacturers recommended amount of power? Or the higher end of the range of power recommended by the manufacturer?
what he's talking about is how well the speaker responds to a given input power, ie high efficiency speakers can get louder for a given wattage input relative to the speaker's resistance, compared to lower efficiency ones
Best teacher in the biz
Sweet vid first time wather but boxes are leaky squares till uou give its vas and litres and perfect port tune
But with modern amps, I can dial in my roll off frequency and boost if needed to get the right sound I need.
Nope. You're not going to magically create energy that doesn't exist
Hey I’ve got a question on my set up in my pickup. How is my amplifier able to affect my pickups operating performance? When I have my amp set perfectly or near perfect, my pickup will feel as if someone put a hot tune on the ecu but a tank of fuel will last three times longer
lol wtf bro I need more details
I had a question regarding subwoofer and its amp, does it matter a SQ sub is paired with a normal amp as long as the rms power and impedance is matched or a normal sub paired with a sq amp or should it be both sq for better sq?
Also in a sealed enclosure for SQ, if the manufacturer recommendations are considered for the box size, does it have any impact adding polyfill/dampening, if yes how much should be added or is this only good for SPL?
It depends on you budget. If you are getting started or on a tight budget and you want SQ, a decent brand amp that meets all needs plus a well tuned box should suffice. Putting polyfill does more than "make it louder". It also helps cut down on box resonance (Think "ringing" of the box. kind of like when you knock on something hollow vs something solid).
Btw if you're lining your boxes, go for pink firberglass insulation, line each side of the box with it and 90% of the time this will yeild good results.
I do have one question. I am adding two JL Audio TW3 10 inch shallow mount subs into the trunk of my 2017 Chevy Cruze. They will be in a sealed box. My question is, would it sound better with the subs firing toward the cock pit, or facing the back of the trunk? or does it even matter? The box will be made of the typical 3/4 thick MFD panel.
Where does the vehicle fit in ? I've recently discovered the principle known as cabin gain .
I'm putting 2 12inch subs in a pickup truck , not double cab just extended cab . Thats a lot of subwoofer for a small space . I had to go with .75 ft3 sealed boxes but I really want to go all the way down to 20hz . On paper my subs start to roll off below 50hz . I'm counting on the cabin gain to reverse this . Plus so what if it rolls off a little , I still have a pair of 12s with 800w rms into 2 ohm load in a pickup truck !
At least thats my theory .
Great video that touches on the give and take we go thru to setup these systems . I hope this cabin gain concept pans out !
Also confused about sub power ratings . For instance a focal sub i am looking at is rated at "300-600watts" . Which is it ?
What kind of nut inserts do you use for your builds?