JUNKYARD BBC SHOOTOUT (STOCK & CAMMED) -GEN-6 7.4L 454 VS GEN-7 8.1L 496. WHO MAKES MORE POWER & TQ?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- HOW CAN I MAKE MORE CHEAP BBC PULLING POWER? WILL A CAM IMPROVE TORQUE FOR TOWING? WHICH BBC IS BETTER FOR TOWING? WHICH BBC HAS MORE PULLING POWER? IS THE GEN-7 8.1L AN LS MOTOR? HOW MUCH POWER DOES A JUNKYAD BBC MAKE? IS THE GEN 7 BETTER THAN THE GEN 6? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I RAN A JUNKYARD GEN-6 454 IN STOCK AND MODIFIED TRIM AFTER INSTALLATION OF A MILD CAMSHAFT. I ALSO RAN A JUNKYARD GEN-7 8.1L 496 IN STOCK AND MODIFIED TRIM AFTER INSTALLATION OF A MILD CAMSHAFT. CHECK HOW EACH RESPONDED TO THE CAM CHANGE, HOW THEY COMPARE TO EACH OTHER IN BOTH CONDITIONS AND EVEN HOW THE 454 RESPONDED TO A CARB SWAP VS EFI!
I want to see the L29 modified with a cam and such with the stock intake.
Great to see 2000 rpm on the dyno chart!!
the 496 made nearly 500 twist at 1900 rpm 👀 wowzers I kinda wish I was a Chevy guy
The top end would benefit from either and more from both. Normally I'm not a Huge cam person but these are Big cube engines so they don't mind a larger cam. We need a 236/244 cam in the 8.1 and see what that does lol
I heard BIG BANG BIG BLOCK CHEVY. Can't wait!!!
You need to hit up mast motorsports and test some of their 8.1/8.8 heads. They developed some for a company’s fleet a few years ago with ls7 ports and matching intake manifold. Don’t think they ever sold them to the public but they do have some ijs 🤷🏻♂️
As a owner of a 8.1l I can say the exhaust port side is the restriction port that to get a good gain
The 8.1 needs a little more duration, but also a wider LSA. Go to 238° on the intake lobe, and 246° on the exhaust. Open the LSA to 114°, and put the ICL @ 110°. You'll probably run out of piston to valve clearance on the intake if you use really aggressive lobes. Getting the lift up to around 0.550" will help.
Also it needs the intake substantially modified, it needs to have a 100MM throttle body, and no restriction behind it. It needs all the baffles removed, and some substantial blending. People often do not open the area behind the throttle body up enough. They also simply saw the bottom off of the intake, hack out the baffles, and then stick the floor back on. You get a bigger plenum, but it's not well balanced, and it doesn't work with the long runners.
Those 40 extra cubic inches are extremely hungry.
Guess I’ll have to dust off my 8.1 and Chevelle, I stopped messing with them when you paused on the 8.1 testing, fingers crossed for twin turbo testing
Great comparison, I’ve got both of those motors, good to see what a little cam will do for POWAH!
Can we see an EFI 460 get tested against these later? I'd really love to see that
Great video! This is an excellent test for demonstrating what most budget constrained people are doing or can do with these engines. I would have liked to have seen the off idle to low RPM results as well. Just to get a realistic idea of whether one would need a stall speed converter and which one. Realistically I feel like it would be safe to assume off idle power and response would be great. But it still would have been sweet to see. Overall, this gives a great view of the capabilities of these engines on a budget. And proves their performance capabilities as being pretty good for a mostly stock engine. Now let's keep everything the same and add a set of 063 heads to that 454. And do a little valve work to the 8.1 heads. The results would be very interesting. Again, demonstrating what most people are doing being budget constrained. This would also be a chance to demonstrate what it takes to swap out the vortec heads for early model heads. Given the change from non-adjustable to adjustable valve trains. It would also demonstrate upgrade opportunities and challenges associated with modifying the 8.1 head. Thanks Richard!
the allison 1000 has an input redline so the factory computer will not let you rev it very high. I'm sure they had that rpm limit in mind when designing the heads and intake. The stock 8.1 allison trucks shift so damn smooth under mid and full throttle. the 4L80E guys are missing out.
In 2014 I had Jake’s Performance rebuild/upgrade the 4L80E in my 2005 Yukon XL 2500. I had the shifting fine-tuned by Black Bear Performance when he tuned my engine. With that transmission and tuning, I don’t feel like I was giving up anything to the A1k. Between the tune and transmission, I had a hair over $3k into it.
@@JA-no1qk the 4L80E works in a completely different way than the Allison. Nothing wrong with the 4L80E but it's a whole different world.
Hey Rich, your videos are always awesome as always. Super knowledgeable and the best word I can look for is completely solid and accurate.! So I have an 05 Sierra HD with an 8.1 I'm trying to put back on the road at the moment I have a raylar and a nonsense tune in it right now but I'm looking to build the truck and do the right thing I want to do stainless works Long tubes, I'm not sure about torque converter with the Allison but I would really love to get some of your input outside of raylar what I can do to make some real power and low-end torque like it does
A TURBO AND MILD CAM ARE AMAZING-NOT SURE YOU NEED A DIFFERENT CONVERTER UNLESS YOU PUT IN A BIG CAM-JOIN THE LIVE FEED NIGHTLY
First 👍's up Richard thank you for sharing
And yes, I'm not interested in 2000 rpm for towing, I want to see it for street racing. I built a 406 torque monster for street racing and it was a beast. Mild solid roller, 15:1 comp ratio, dual plane intake. I didn't even need to use stall converter, from idle "around 800" you barely touch throttle and she'd want break out spinning with drag radials. I eventually went to street legal slick with tubes, bead locked to wheel only way I could halfway hook all that torque to the asphalt. Even at the track I could holeshot and pull 2 to 3 cars in the first 60 ft comparable cars running big stalls, big cams, and low gears. I still could out launch um. Foot brake cars, not Trans brake cars. That's not a apples to apples comparison
Thanks for covering these engines. I’m presently working on a gen.6 and trying to figure out the best collector for this engine. I’m not making my own headers, bought a pair of 1 3/4” long tubes which came with pretty poor collectors, but I’m willing to cut off the collectors which came with them and weld on more optimized collectors. I just don’t know what collector configuration is more optimized, I’m guessing it’ll be a pretty long merge collector.
Have you contemplated doing a old school 2.3 Ford Turbo?.
My aunt has a Turbo Coupe Thunderbird she refuses to sell
@@madmod Yes that is what I love to see a review on..
@@Tegridynews They are fun cars. Hers is a manual too so they run higher boost pressure.
If I could find either at the pull-a-part I'd take it.
The restrictions on the 8.1 is the intake manifold they are restricted inside the manifold to about 60mm. The best thing is to get the manifold cut and opened up.
hi Richard when can we expect some more barra content. I have just installed a barra in a e90 bmw now the fun stuff turbo😁cheers from down under
Obviously you have your hands full and I completely understand that, along with them sure you have thousands of messages from people but it would really be nice to touch base or even regardless of your state. I would be willing to drive to get some quality work done and enjoy the performance. There's no one around me with your skill and mindset!
THNX-I DON'T HAVE A SHOP OR DO ENGINE WORK
I'm leaning towards intake, but I'd like to know if or how much if a role the heads are plying in that.
I'd say it's a combination of the intake and cylinder head design , possibly could use a bit more cam as well
I think it falls off because of induction restriction. Could be head intake or exhaust
That's our man Richard Holdener... race car driver, automotive writer, historian, dude dood and hairstylist to the stars!
Going forward, please reference engines and gen to year and vehicles we can source them from.
Thank you!
.
no on vehicles
Good information
This is the exact combination I've been fantasy debating in my head.
Do I upgrade my Gen V. 454, or go through the SMOG referee to get an 8.1L swap approved for my 94 K2500 (in California). I can't afford to mod either right now, but a boy can dream.
Smog ref? Damn no wonder all the good cars are escaping California
Swap! Swap! Swap! Swap!....😁
You ever going to try an 8.8 PSI motor Richard? I’d really like to see what that can do and differences? Are the dimensions different on the two? How about oil pan options? Considering one in my 67 chevelle but very little information I can find?
Intake is most likely the culprit. Factory designed to make the most torque at 5000 rpm and lower.
Here's an idea....drop the ZZ502 cam into the 454 see how it responds!
THE CAM WE PUT IN THE 454 IS VERY SIMILAR
Richard, what needed to be done to the stock L29 heads to run close to .550 lift? Thats the biggest concern I cannot get a definite answer on!
@@matthewbuck7731Did you ever get an answer to this? I’m building a budget gen 6 and can’t get a straight answer either…
@@rowdy3837I just installed the zz502 cam in my l29 with stock heads. I had the machine shop cut down the guides and machine the seats for the rotator eliminators and positive seals on the guides as well
Awesome Richard!
Wonder if it’s possible to run that 454 cam swap with a stock computer system with a tune? I have a 97’ GMC 3500 crew cab dually that I’d like to make more power with. If not maybe I’ll find an 8.1 and figure a way to run it with my stock computer system.
Yes you can run the cam in the 454 with a tune
No you cannot run the 8.1 with the 454 computer
@@chipcurrey653 thanks. I figured I’d have to piggy back the Holley ecu into the factory harness to make the dash and the cruise control work with the 8.1. I appreciate the reply.
I looked up the cam specs and that cam looks to be an off the shelf Comp XR276 cam.
Love the Big Block Chevy content. Great post.
Geez that 496 in stock form makes more than 40 cubic inches worth of torque and HP over the 454, gotta be some cyl head development to credit there.
It's the extra cubes that make it more powerful, not the heads..
@@P71ScrewHead it's a lot more than just that, the 8.1 is more LS than BBC.
@@shadowopsairman1583 Definitely not. Completely different architecture. The 8.1L has SOME features taken from the LS engine, such as cathedral ports, and the ignition.
@@shadowopsairman1583 I'm a Ford guy so maybe you're right.. ;)
Heads up it is an LS. It's called the L18 due to the "new" head bolt pattern, it practically eliminated head gasket blow out. The heads flow like crap without a valve job though. Extra power comes from the stroke out, same way the 350 gained power when stroked to 396. Literally the same stroker approach was applied from 454 to the L18(496). On top totally LS, I own one and argue this point all the time. There are two LS big blocks, the L18 and the LS7, neither are very popular but both are amazing once built.
id say do the baffle mod to the intake manifold of the 8.1 and see a difference compared to stock form.
he did that already, in the vid he shows the bottom of the 8.1 intake cut and welded.. see his prev 8.1 vid
how about 1.8 rockers on zz502 cam??
I have a 97 3500 with the 454 and I love it
Love your content. I'm putting together a l29 454. I'm a newbie to engine building. Any pointers ? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and looking to make around 500 hp
cam and (the right) springs and make sure to check p-v
Did you ever finish this build? What did you go with to hit your hp goals?
I think the drop off in power is a couple of things all happening at the same time. 1. it the long runner intake, and 2 is that cam being a little small to handle a big cube engine at that rpm. but i suspect the heads are also potentially reaching their breathing limits for an engine that big. according to Raylar Engineering, they stock head only flows around 290cfm @ .600 lift on the intake and an 190 cfm @ .700. with that cam you are not even hitting close to those lift numbers, so cfm would be even worse. I think it's actually the exhaust port that is holding it back on the high end in this case
those flow numbers would allow 580 hp-so its not likely the heads
Just imagine putting a huge cam in this thing (which big blocks love) and a pair of AFR heads. 700+hp easily..
Going from 300hp to 700hp with just a cam and heads?? I don’t know about that
@@codystrom8708 Yes. It’s extremely choked from the factory. It has the cubic inches it’s just missing the air flow. HCI LS7’s does 700fw pretty easily. I’m sure with 27 more ci the 454 could easily pull it off. And it’ll be even easier with the 496 with 69ci more than the LS7.
Richard how does the 6.6 L8T compare to the L18 ?? im thinking of selling my 8.1 chevy for a newer 6.6 gas
Awesome test.
I've got to drive both engines stock with a manual trans and I know the gearing is different between the two trans but the 8.1 was stupid fast. The 454 is impressive but I wish I could have got the 8.1 instead of the 454.
Bigger will always be better n funner.. But you know that now.. ;)
Twin turbo add a turbo 400 and stuff it in a 22' day cruiser. Should be a 130 MPH streak.
Carburate the 8.1 to see if it has the same output use the carb you used on the 454 the bottom end and peak is where I wanna see the consistency
The odd thing for me is, on my dyno software, if all I do is add stroke, the engines will gain a little in bottom end torque, but lose in top end horsepower. The only way I can get them to make more horsepower than the shorter stroked versions, is by changing out the heads to larger versions, and then the shorter stroked versions will still make more horsepower!
I'm going to say it's the heads holding back the power. Cams help for sure, but without the heads breathing more for the stroked engine, there will be no horsepower love!
that is why we test on a real dyno on not software-in the real world, what your software is telling you never happens. check out the 4.8l vs 5.3l video-a bigger motor makes more power
Need to find a way to adapt a 454 Oval port or Square Port Dual and single plane intake to a Gen 7 496.
Likely lots of Tig Welding Fabrication needed.
guys have put gen 6 heads on them
@@richardholdener1727 Yes losing the Gen 7 Factory heads. Need to substitute different Gen 4 BBC heads adapt to to prove Runner lengths differences and power or band changes.
Pipemax program already shows they are too long Factory Gen 7 intake runners for Peak Hp numbers wanted for Drag racing or high rpm Drag Racing use like to 6800-7000.
@@richardholdener1727 Nothing more Fun or Kooler making huge Hp and Torque with Factory heads ports stock untouched or ported.
Like NHRA Super Stock or FAST Drag Racing. At least to me
I don't think the 8.1 is good from personal experience I owned one and it had several major issues including wiping a cam and breaking a piston. I also acknowledge the lack of aftermarket support, poor stock intake manifold flow, and the high cost of the Raylar parts. Overall, however, I think it got a very bad rap.
I have a Gen V 454 and plan on building a 489 (.030 bore) with 049 heads and the GM 24502611 hydraulic roller cam for my 88 Dually. I already have a 4.25 stroke crank and 6.385 H-beam rods. I also plan on keeping the factory TBI intake and throttle body. I don't recall if Richard has specifically tested this cam but if so, I'd like to see the results.
the factory tbi will be very restrictive for a 489
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you for responding. The only big block TBI intake I can find is the Edelbrock 3764 and it is not currently available so for now it looks like I'm stuck with the stock intake until I find something else that will work.
@@BruceCoggins just put a normal big block intake on it and use a standalone efi like fitech or Holley. Tuning will be easier and you'll make way more power. Do some googling, I know someone on the gmt400 forum put a standalone efi on a gen 5 big block truck.
@@christiansteffen3270 thanks for the info...for some reason, I wasn't even thinking about ditching the factory TBI and using something else. I will definitely look into making that change.
@@BruceCoggins good luck!
Any chance of comparing the new 6.6 Vortec to the 8.1?
Hello I was wondering if you can run boots on a stock 8.1/496?
Good evening!
The 8.1 cam is smaller and to be equivalent, the 8.1 should have a slightly larger cam.
more big block . thanks
I'd like to see a comparison between the 496 and the ZZ502.
I've got a 94 Chevy Caprice with a LT1 350 and I was thinking about getting another one and try to put a vortex 454 in it, if I left it stock what kind of fuel mileage do you think I could get out of it
no great-less than 350
Hey richard, i have a question thats not related to this video.
I am going to pick up a 5.0 AWD explorer and i want to make a little bit of steam with the 5.0. looking for between 450-550whp. Whats the easiest and most budget friendly options to make that power. I would like it to be somewhat reliable so I would be willing to spend a little more to add supporting parts and such, but i dont have a super high budget. willing to buy boost mods too and intercoolers and such. Thanks!
gt45 turbo, 80 pound inj, fuel pump, intercooler, xe274 or smaller cam, any aluminum heads
@@richardholdener1727 awesome! Thank you so much!
I wonder how the cam would respond on the 454 with the stock intake.
SAME
I'm about to turbo a 97 454 with stock efi for my 85 k3500. I wish I could see results of the stock intake with a cam and boost.
it works the same as a carb-see the efi vs carb video-and boost just adds to what is there
@@richardholdener1727 thank you for the reply. I will be doing the swap this winter after I finish some other projects.
No mention of valve springs / lifters.You can just slam in a bigger cam w/o changing them?
we don't change lifters, but do change springs as indicated
@@richardholdener1727 interesting so with roller cams /lifters no new lifters required .just as I had hoped.thinking of replacing the missing 390 horse LS5 in a 70 corvette with a gen 6 454 because of its half decent 9.4 compression ratio.Since it’s not a big cam I won’t need to change valve springs? Thanks for your guidance
As much dyno testing as you do wouldn't it pay to just buy your own dyno? Just curious
Somebody PLEASE design an intake for the 496 🙏! The world needs big blocks to survive
Did you have to cut the valve guides down on the gen 6 for the cam over 500 lift
that helps but also need the right springs
I think the 496 runs out of head after the cam swap.
Any idea to modify the efi on gen 6 ? Not a fan of carburetor :(
IT WORKS FINE-PROGRAMMING IS AVAIL
WRONG CAM!!! The 496 really needs a 255 to 265 degree cam. The heads and intake seem to flow enough to support a larger cam. It'll require better valvesprings and probably an aftermarket converter and better rear gears, but it'd be worth it.
a 255 won't likely fit available p-v
Why did they go canted valves in the 8.1 if a scaled up ls head would have been better
Thank you!
8.1 would be an intake restriction up high
im building a 4th gen 454 with 6th gen heads whats the best cam and springs for a stock internal 4th gen 454
WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH IT?
@richardholdener1727 try to get in to drag and drives events
And use Amos' modified intake!
I'm new and intimidated lol
i love how Richard Holdener had to test a massively modded intake with the zz502 cam because with a stock cam or RV/towing cam all those intake mods would have made 0-5hp . sorry but spending $1500 to make 19hp and what 15ft isnt worth it and that 19 hp is at 5k rpm .... at useable rpms it looks like 5hp
show me the data
@richardholdener1727 rich, I took those numbers from your video. You showed the dyno sheet on the video .
@@richardholdener1727 BTW Amos made that claimed hp on stock I said a year ago
Stroke the 454 to a 496 and then compare. It would be a better showcase of the oval port vs ls style port.
STOCK VS STOCK IS BETTER THAN MODIFICATIONS TO ONE
@@richardholdener1727 OK, how about a stock 502 then? I'm more from the marine world and the 8.1 never really got any love. Merc always stayed with the older 454/502/525 architecture for their performance motors and even now they run the "8.2" as their base big block.
Yeah I'd like to see that.
the 502 was never offered in a car
@@richardholdener1727 True, just thinking that it was a "production" motor that would get the displacement more equal to show what gains the new platform may or may not have produced.
Cam smaller?
I have a 69 buick riviera what motor would you use
do you have the Buick Motor?
Where can i get a gen 6 454? Thankx.
junkyard
Upgrade the springs and cam mmmm🤔 an maybe after a lil compression an spin them boys to 7500 rpm's
More cam pls....
gen 6!!! :-)
I'm the 496th like. 🎉
winning
You clicked the wrong file for the stock 496, you clicked the “small cam file”
Should do the same test with the 8.0 magnum v10
Personally I blame John Woodworth
now they need BOOST
Let's see them with a turbo
The BBC engine does everything well
The 454 should of been made into a Gen 7
First
First!
Dang, not first!
paint them street hemi orange they will never look better
It's the intake holding the 8.1 back.
If you didn't change injectors that would be my guess why the power is falling off!
THE AR RATIO IS SPOT ON ALL THE WAY THROUGH-FUEL FLOW IS NOT A PROBELM
@@richardholdener1727 Then I will go with weak valve springs lol!
Smoke weed every day
Not advisable. Your a joint away from playing with your poop.
@@juicebox853 lmfao funny shit
Never heard that 1 before.