This is a really interesting topic. I'm Norwegian, and after following various American recipes, I have concluded that our flours are so different that it doesn't translate. Our standard "all purpose" wheat flour is what you'd call bread flour, 78% of the grain, 12.1% protein, good gluten development. But it can't handle the same hydration as American bread flour, it has to be adjusted down slightly, or it'll be soup. Take a sourdough starter for example, I'll add 90% of the water to match yours in consistency. Another solution for dough is to replace 50% with a Tipo 0 flour to make it tolerate higher hydration and behave in a similar way.
Outstanding! I am just starting out baking sourdough and you have answered most of my questions while providing the visual information that a book really can’t deliver. Thank you, looking forward to the next installment.
Yesterday (16 feb 2023) I had a demo day on sourdough ('desem' in Dutch (and actually it's 'zuurdesem' but bakers are afraid that the sour part will shield the loafs off from potentially customers)) with Master Boulanger and Master Pattisier Robèrt van Beckhoven. Your video so completed his story and I thank you for that. His comment for the day was that bread is a play (or game) of grain and water (and a bit of salt). Grain for taste, water for quality and salt to compliment both. In contradiction to your story he mentioned both wheat and rye since those grains can embrace the most water (and thus your comment of a dough being thirsty made sense). But watching your video I suddenly understand the 'T' values we use in the Netherlands. I understand the high protein content on the labels and the effects it has on your loaf. I'm so excited that this journey of understanding is also a journey of taste and vision. As mentioned in a previous comment: "I'm a fan". Thank you very much.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback. Yes, we do not have the "T" value on our flours here in the US. I wish we did. Our flour labeling is not very good, so it leaves a lot of questions left to trial and error. We use the protein percentage as an approximation, but it is always accurate. Thank you.
Wow.. Tom, I’ve watched this entire video start to finish, over a hour..oh my, I’m definitely a bread nerd. I’m ready for the toaster oven, butter, jam, taste test next! Thank you immensely for your production. 👍🏽🇺🇸🌎😋
OMG if you apologize one more time for either the length of your video or the granularity, I will personally come to your kitchen to shout you down! IGNORE ANYONE WHO COMPLAINS about those things, you don't need an audience of impatient bakers anyway. The content I've seen so far is fabulous for anyone serious about learning or even hearing from someone with a shared passion. At first I sensed a little impatience from YOU however, because you've been a bit condescending towards what you seem to consider repetitive and/or dumb questions or comments, so I say again, ignore ignore ignore, keep up the great work and just direct yourself towards one audience: of like-minded bakers! I have more comments for you but am out of time rn, and oh, I need to share a story about the loaves I made that kept proofing IN THE REFRIDGERTOR, it was insane! Thanks again for the great videos!
Tom your attention and explanation to all details makes you the best sourdough educator. I just watched this for the first time. What I just learned was so extremely helpful. I now feel ready to experiment with different flour. Thank you for teaching us like no one else does. My journey is only 5 Months long. When I hit a roadblock I find one of your videos that helps me troubleshoot. I’m excited to be on this new journey.
Thank you for this great video, I just ran into it yesterday. Watch it in one sitting, no pauses. I too acquired the same proofer box and found for my kitchen that I need to set the temperature to 84 degrees for the dough to reach the right temperature. Thanks again.
Thank you for making this video. Your analogy between a kernel of wheat and an orange was so helpful. I studied your videos during the 2020 - 2021 lockdown period. Took pages of notes and made some decent loaves of bread. When it felt safe to go out again I let my starter die and did not make any bread. After seeing this video, I’m raring to get back into the game. Thankfully I received your email to tell me about your new videos. Will also check out your website. That will be very useful. I really like your videos. They are concise and packed with pertinent information.
Thank you for the feedback. I’m happy to hear that you’ve found my videos to be helpful. And I think you’ll really like the website. I have lots of additional, new content there also.
What an amazing video. I wondered about flours and how they affect results. Love how you instruct, without tipping your hand too much to your bias 🤓. Nicely done.
Thank you so much for your videos. I've used bread flour from the supermarket and since I've used a proof brand flour, I'll never go back. Now I can see with your video the difference between flours.
Great video! I've been experimenting with and mixing flours since I started sourdough over two years ago. Now I have a much better understanding of the various flours. This will help me greatly. Thank you!!
Awesome video Tom, you’re doing all amateur bakers a huge service by tipping the scales (forgive the pun) of baking from an “art” to more of a “science”. BTW, absolutely love the crumb on Cairnsprings (Loaf 3), that uniformity is to die for.
Thank you! This video was really a revelation for me. I did not realize how much of the crumb style starts with the type of flour. Home bakers are driving themselves crazy trying to replicate the crumb photos they see on Instagram. Without knowing what type of flour the pro bakers are using, it may be literally impossible to replicate the crumb.
I really appreciate how much quality work that goes into each of your videos. I'm new to baking but am already obsessed. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.
Tom, you are the best. I’ve been looking at Central Milling and Cairnsprings and particularly Janie’s Mill because Janie’s mill is the closest to my home. I was worried about not knowing how it might compare to my limited experience (KA bread flour and Bob’s Red Mill Artisan BF). You answered ALL my questions! I think I will stick with going local, but play around with using Janie’s Mill flours to blend with a second bread flour. I would love to see you experiment in future with partial whole wheat loaves comparing different ancient or heirloom grains (ie spelt, emmer, einkorn, or red fife, turkey red etc). Thanks for all the hard work you put into this channel!
Hope you will cover fresh milled flour. I keep having to adapt recipes but have had varying success. Following recipes made with fresh milled grain is great but it leaves out important people I enjoy following like you!
Fantastic video, Tom! You put a lot of work into these videos, in our benefit! Understanding flours is a continuous challenge for me, since I watch/read recipes for all over the world, every country with its own way of classification. It is a challenge even for the flours in my country (we have 650, 550, 000 and whole wheat flour, and in the same category we find flours with major differences of their characteristics). I even asked some vloggers about the characteristics of the flours they used, to try to find similar ones in my country... with no answer or with not satisfying answers... But your video helped me understand the meaning of each characteristic! Thank you! And good luck! I am also waiting your video with backing loafs in different kinds and sizes of Dutch Ovens. ;)
Thank you. This video was really an education for me. I did not realize how confusing flour can be. It is no wonder people struggle. I’m still doing tests on that Dutch ovens. That is REALLY complicated. I have 5 thermometers in my oven now and still can’t figure it out.
@@thesourdoughjourney Wow! Good luck! It really is a Research Institute in your kitchen! Thanks again! Both for your answer and for all your work! Btw - the website is excellent! :)
I watched with great interest the whole video. Although I love great sourdough bread I don't eat enough to justify making bread with other than a yeasted dough. Much of what you have presented is transferable to yeasted dough, but I wonder if you say a word about using King Arthur bread flour with a little more vital gluten flour added to bring it up to, say, 13% gluten. I'm still early in my bread making experience but far enough along be starting to achieve some consistency. Thank you for producing these videos. They're very helpful.
Thank you for the feedback. I use King Arthur Bread Flour often and the standard bread flour at 12.7% protein makes very nice loaves. I don't think you need to add more vital wheat gluten to it, but you certainly could try. I also use Central Milling High Mountain High Gluten flour at 13.5% protein. It is noticeably firmer, taller and more open than the King Arthur loaves, but the crumb also gets a bit tough and chewy when you start to get over 13% protein.
This is an excellent video. I was struggling with my sourdough after making over 30 loaves with an “Artisan” type flour. When I switched to KA organic bread flour, my loaves looked fantastic. I had almost given up but it turned out to be the flour. I tested this again this week and the loaf made with the “Artisan” flour again turned out gummy and dense. I went through 50 pounds of this flour -I guess I’m a slow learner lol
A valuable and clearly laid out experiment that makes me want to try blend some of that stone-ground flour with my go to King Arthur bread flour. I've never tried Central Milling but I can see you really like that flour. I hope this war in the Ukraine ends soon to save lives and to keep inflation from exploding any higher in wheat and energy. Thanks for all of your hard work. I watched the entire video from start to finish.
Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I recommend blending in some different varieties of whole wheat (preferably stone ground) with the KA Bread Flour. I'd recommend going up to about 20% so you can taste the different wheats and see how they ferment differently. I saw today that wheat prices are expected to rise 400%, so now would be a good time to stock up on some flour. Also, thanks for checking out my new website. I value your feedback.
I adore this video! Congratulations Tom! I do have a question. Looking at the European flour chart at 16:46, I see that you label a type 1050 flour as a "Light whole wheat flour", but can it not be considered as an "high extraction bread flour"? How much overlap is there between the two terms?
Thank you. The bread terms and metrics are all over the place. “High extraction” very much could be “light whole wheat” on that chart. There is really no consistency and I struggled to try to get things to line up in these charts, but I figured something close was better than nothing. It’s all so inconsistent. I’m working a larger global survey of flours and hope to do another video on this topic with a larger sample and better classification. I’m also calling some flours “high protein” (which they are) but they also are high extraction. And the “stone ground” flours I used here are almost in a class by themselves. They behave quite differently than other flours with similar stats. I learned a lot making this video!
@@thesourdoughjourney I know what you mean. Israel has a similar naming standard as the US (Bread flour, AP flour) but as you showed, it's not standardized: supermarket bread flour is 11g protein per 100g, but I can find 13.6g per 100g from the very few specialized flour mills. Romania has a different system altogether and it's all over the map. Bread flour here is termed 650 flour, which you'd think equates to France's T65, but we also have flours like 000, which is kind of similar to Italy's grind-size system (both having similar protein content per 100g), adding to the confusion. I have access to German flour, so that's why I was asking about Type 1050 flour. I remember When I started taking my bread baking seriously I really tried to figure out what should I look for in a "bread flour" and it was a challenge. I would have loved to find this video back then.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you Tom, this looks like a great article! By the way, Congratulation on your new B&T proofer! May it serve you well and of course, it would be lovely if you could do a review of it in the future. Take care, happy baking and good luck with all your experiments.
Wonderful video once again. Everything I want to experiment with or questions I have about sourdough bread baking you have covered in your videos. Still making my way through them all but they are all great and you do a very good articulate way of explaining it all. I just ordered a grain mill cause I want to be able to control the flour I use for our bread even more than picking flour from stores or online suppliers. I'm in Canada and we have some great grain producers in some of our provinces so I've been trying to read up on getting full berry grains and grinding my own flours so this video you made helps me a great deal to know when I do grind my own, what to look for in the grains I pick and what parts of the grain to focus on to use in my bread flours. Thanks again for all of your hard work and time you put into this.
@@thesourdoughjourney I just ordered a Mockmill 100. Hopefully it's enough for our family's use and making some extra loaves to trade bread with our neighbors for things like eggs, veggies etc :) If I think we need a bigger one I can sell that one and move up to the next size up but for starting off I think it should be a good choice. I watched a lot of video's comparing different mills and for home use everyone seemed to really like this one and it can also make larger size grinds for making cereals, grits etc too.
@@thesourdoughjourney Right on. I will keep you posted. It should be here late this week and I should have whole berry grain by the time it gets here to try out.
Great experiment. It really shows the effect using different flours can have in your crumb... amazing! I have to say that I love high extraction flours (as long as they are finely milled), the flavor is spectacular.
I really enjoyed this. I’m getting a Mockmill stone mill for my birthday ( not until September, I hope my wife will take pity on me😂). I’m planning to experiment with #40 and #60 sifters to remove a portion of the bran, I think I can end up with something like the two high ash loaves you baked. I’m going to use locally grown organic wheats from Ontario, we grow great wheat here, winter wheat and spring wheat! It will be very interesting to experiment with flours made from different types of wheat! I can also get some soft wheat to make my wife pastry flour and make a blend of soft and hard to make an all purpose type flour for things like corn bread. Klaus
Thank you for your great videos :) I am living in Germany and turns out I was using an all-purpose flour instead of a bread flour. The 550 worked well but I will be definitely trying out the 812 flour soon.
Thank you! Good luck. Please report back with your findings. I don’t have a lot of info on the flours of Germany. There is another sourdough TH-cam channel, The Bread Code, which is from Germany. You may find some additional info there.
I also live in Germany and have been using Type 1050 after realizing that Type 450 is AP or cake flour. 1050 works fine for me, but I will try to find 812 (not sure it is at every store).
thanks to this video i was able to find a very cheap local flour that is 78-80% extraction with 13% protein i think i can consider that as bread flour right?? i usually buy an exported " bread flour" that was good but very very expensive( 15$ per kilo) your chanel helped me a lot to understand bread making , best from most of the books i read. now i know the mistakes that i have been making thanks again for such an amazing chanel God bless
I am absolutely obsessed with Cairnspring and the way the flavor pairs with sourdough. Awesome flour. Just wish it was more affordable but I get why it isn’t.
Only halfway through and really enjoying so far! I let my leaven ferment in the proofing box overnight at around 76f when it’s cold because I was having a similar issue
@@thesourdoughjourney was a great video BTW. I can’t get most flours like the ones you were using without taking a mortgage out on the house 😂 but very interesting to watch. B&T Proofing box takes a few uses to get used to, but once you are it’ll be one of your fav pieces of equipment!
Hello Tom, I love your videos. I’m both learning & baking a lot. I was wondering what side batard bannetons are you using for your experiments. I like to bake smaller loaves you did with this experiment. Thanks!
Hi Tom, Great video in a long line of wonderful material. I am fortunate to be located close to Cairnspring Mills and really have enjoyed all of their flours. My understanding is that they are all stone ground. I have followed you since the beginning and both enjoyed and appreciated every minute.
Thank you! I did not realize the Cairnsprings was stone ground. Thanks for that clarification. I could feel the whole wheat in the dough. I appreciate the feedback. And thanks for sticking with me from the start. Lots of bakers have come and gone in the past two years. Also, please check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com I'm adding a lot of great new content there in addition to the videos.
Hi Tom, Have you ever considered an experiment with different starter feeding ratios (1:1:1, 1:5:5, 1:10:10 etc.) and how that impacts time to peak and time at peak? It would be curios to see the results with other variables (e.g temp ) held constant. Having that knowledge provides another tool when planning a bake.
@@brucedianehall2086 I have done some experimenting with this but have not made a video. The bottom line is that it takes a huge change in feeding ratio to significantly impact the rise time. I was not able to double the rise time until I got up to a 1:20:20 ratio (as compared to 1:1:1). I’ve only tested this once so can’t say with certainty, but I’ll work on this in the future an will publish something.
Thanks Tom for the quick reply and considering my request. My sense has been that the time to peak has been similar but that the time at peak seems longer with higher ratio differences.
Thank you so much for this video. In the past I've tried understanding flour but ended up with my head spinning. I've been trying--off and on--to come up with a signature/daily bread. I know the characteristics I want: high nutritional value, a relatively tighter crumb so it can be used for sandwiches without mayo or tuna or eggs dripping through, flavor, toasts nicely, & has a crisp but not thick crust. I've managed, somewhat successfully, using 50% "bread" flour, 30% whole wheat flour & 20% random flour & baking at 450F. I never considered the impact of the flour type/brand. For flavor 20% spelt does the trick but comes with undesirable characteristics. After watching your video, I'm planning to be more methodical & changing 1 flour at a time. Plan to start with the ww flour & keeping notes! BTW I love your bulk-o-matic and desired dough temp calculator both were game changers!
Tom, great information and well put together video but I do have a question, why not mill your own flour from wheat berries? You could custom blend your own bread flours and the quality would be superior due to the freshness of the flour. There are great countertop electric stone ground mills that really only take minutes to mill your flour every day and have infinite coarseness settings.
Thanks! I’m moving in that direction later this summer. I try to keep my experiments a focused on what most home bakers would use. It I were just baking for personal use / enjoyment, I’d be home milling now.
I just rewatched this video - such a great experiment. I love watching your process and learned SO MUCH. Thank you for your amazing channel. I was wondering if you've done any experimentation with whole wheat flours. I use 25-35% whole wheat, and have been really enjoying milling my own flour. I actually really like the taste of hard white flour (I get mine from Breadtopia) but I know that brings down the strength of the flour. I am also trying to find a different grain source (Breadtopia's shipping is very expensive) and the local vendors here mostly only carry hard red or soft white. So, I was wondering if you've experimented at all with different whole grains or have any insights to share. I might just have to start my own experiment if not. :) Thanks for any input.
Thank you. I do not work much with whole grains or fresh milled flours. There is a whole grain sourdough group on Facebook that is quite good. I recommend it.
Wow Tom, great video! I've heard that mills often bump up their protein levels with added Gluten flour. How do you think this effects the overall flour? And, what are we doing to the balance of our flour if we do the same at home?
Thanks Barry. In my experience, if you have 12.5% protein you can make a great loaf. Most supermarket bread flours are in this range. If you go above 13.5% the looks improve (e.g., more height), but the crumb gets pretty tough and chewy at these higher levels. I don’t think there are a lot of other impacts from higher protein. I think the flavor and fermentation are largely not impacted by higher protein levels. If you’re milling you’re own flour at home you can add vital wheat gluten, but it would need to be trial and error because the starting protein % of home milled flour is unknown.
Thanks for this video, Tom. You pulled out Central Milling-High Mountain High Gluten so I’m wondering, how it compares to Central Milling-Old World Bread Flour? Do you like one better than the other?
I love the CM High Mountain. I’ve used that for the past year or more. I often blend it 50/50 with Central Milling Artisan Bakers Craft Plus. This was my first time using the Old World flour. It was my favorite of this group of flours. CM High Mountain by itself is a bit chewy. It needs to be blended down, in my opinion. I also add 10% whole wheat. Old World just works right out of the bag. Beautiful flour.
I am SO happy to have discovered your videos, exceedingly informative and educational, and I appreciate the length-how else to get all that info in?! Have been studying your methods, can't wait to start baking (my experience is with no-knead breads). I'm wondering how the results of the six flours you used here compare to loaves made with King Arthur Bread Flour and Central Milling High Mountain? Also, have you ever tried adding vital wheat gluten to raise the protein content of a lower-protein flour, and what would be the formula?
Thank you for the feedback. I use King Arthur Bread flour in my early videos. It makes good bread (better than Pillsbury but not as good as the “artisan” flours, but a good consistent performer). I use Central Milling High Mountain in most of my recent videos. The best example is my “Art and Alchemy” series. It is a spectacular flour with a wild, open crumb and tall height. I actually blend it down now with 35% Central Milling Artisan Bakers Craft Plus because when used alone it is a bit tough and chewy (but always looks great). I have not used vital wheat gluten. I believe people add 2% of total flour weight. It can improve some lower protein or highly-refined flours. Thanks!
@@thesourdoughjourney Tom, thank you so much for your prompt and helpful reply. Until I gain my sourdough legs, i don't want to spend exorbitant prices on flour... FYI, I know of no other youtuber who so diligently and caringly responds to every comment and inquiry, even on older posts. You are a gem, sir.
With modern agriculture the spring-winter designation is only of minor consideration for flour making. It is mainly a practical designation for the commodities markets which involve contracts for delivery on a certain date, and of course the price is effected by good or bad overall yields and reserve stocks from recent seasons. It is common to have a good spring crop but a bad winter crop(and vice versa) and grain-bins can only hold so much reserve, so the economic distinction makes sense. A farmer is pretty much locked into winter or spring wheat based on local climate, so there is not significant swing between spring and winter production area aside from farmers choosing entirely different crops to balance the expected commodity prices. Soft wheat varieties grow better in high moisture areas and hard wheat in low moisture areas, the hardness is associated with protein but it also effects the percent of damaged starch due to milling and some other factors. (Pre-sprouting due to a wet pre-harvest is also an factor millers must consider as it changes enzyme content.)
Excellent video. I’ve been struggling with King Arthur’s APF (11.7%). It is quite wet like No1. It was helpful to see how the different flours baked up. This is my first semester at The Institute. Great curriculum, small class size and excellent instructor. Don’t know anything about the sports program though.
Thank you. AP flour is tough. Try the King Arthur bread flour. It is a good flour for sourdough. Regarding the sports program, we are building a new badminton court and hoping to field a team soon. I am bringing on two new faculty members for an upcoming video. Stay tuned.
@@thesourdoughjourney What I found interested about your experiment was that breads of 11.2% and 11.5% were called "bread flours" while KA calls their 11.7% flour "all purpose". It may simply be that since they have a bread flour at 12.5% they decided to just call the other flour all purpose. The experience I've had with the recipe I'm experimenting with (450g flour, 300g water, 12g salt, 150g starter) is that the KA AP flour was very wet much like loaf No. 1 in your experiment. I reduced the water first to 280, then 270. Everything still takes longer and stays wet, although the loaf is better as I reduce the water. It does not appear to be as flat. It never looks quite right...yet. The crumb hasn't opened up much. I thought about reducing the water more but I then worried that it might affect the loaf in another way that is not wanted. The last time I cooked it using the 270g of water, the loaf darkened a lot and I didn't notice as much blistering on the outside crust. Of course, all of this could be affected by my starter too. Question 1: Does the extra unabsorbed water just burn off completely during the baking process or does it affect the moistness of the final product? As for badminton, those jocks are the worst. Thank you.
Thanks. Yes, the naming conventions for "bread flours" are very inconsistent. I just found an "all purpose" flour at 12.5% protein that bakes up like a bread flour. That's why I made this video, to try to make sense of the specifications rather than the names on the labels.
The issue with your hydration may be the starter quantity you are using. It is quite high at 30% of the flour weight. Assuming your starter is equal parts flour and water, your starter includes 75g of water. You overall hydration is 75g water in starter plus 300g water = 375. Divide that by 450g flour weight and you have 83% overall hydration. Very high for AP flour. If I were using AP flour in a 450g recipe, I would use 450g flour, 275g water, 9g salt and 90g starter. That's 71% overall hydration (45g of water in starter plus 275g water = 320 total water / 450 flour = 71%) If you want to stick with 150g of starter, then reduce you water even more. You would need to take it down to 245g water to get to overall hydration of 71%. KA All Purpose should easily handle 71% hydration. I might be overshooting on the low side, but I'd start there, then add 5-10g water each time you bake and it will open up the crumb a bit more until it gets too high. Also, higher starter quantities tend to break down the gluten more quickly and you're already starting with a lower protein flour.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you very much. That makes a lot of sense. I was wondering what role the starter played. I didn't even think of the water content of it. My starter zooms quick. It doubles within two hours and by about four hours it's 3X it's original volume. Somewhere between 6 and 8 hours it stops. Then it sits....forever. After a very long time, maybe 12 hours, it starts to reduce but even after 24 hours, it is not back to normal. I do a 1:1:1 feeding once a day. Even after 24 hours it's kind of pasty. Still learning how this works with levain too. It's not supposed to be rocket science! I'm starting to wonder if Von Braun could have pulled this off. :-)
Radical experiment Tom, were these made with Cali or Cle? Thanks for these incredible videos, I've been learning so much. So whats going on with loaf #5? High extraction or .80% ash? The bag and the chart say .80% ash but then you compare it with the other loaves as an 80% extraction flour.
Thanks! These are all made with my Cali starter. I've retired CLE as a backup now. Good catch on #5. It is confusing. The Central Milling website (and labeling) is inconsistent. It is listed on their website as "Type 80" and ".80 Ash" but they also refer to it as an "80% extraction" flour. I should have listed the Ash content as .80 because I believe that is more accurate and the "80% extraction" may be a coincidence or possibly a mistake on their part. It could be both .80 ash and 80% extraction.
@@thesourdoughjourney I see, they describe it as high extraction sifted to 80% ash, so must be both, seems like they want to to market it as "Old World" while maintaining "New World" classification. So do you think it was the high extraction or .8ash that produced the qualities you liked so much about loaf #5? BTW Cali is a monster to ferment all those different flours, I guess this debunks the myth that you need to feed your starter the same flour you bake with...
Thanks. I don’t think I can really separate the qualities. The flavor comes out first, then the texture of the dough, which is a combination of the ash and extraction rate. Some of the other flours with higher ash % have more of the classic “whole wheat grittiness.” This one was so smooth and supple to work with.
You might put up some sources to buy some of these Flours, I live in a small town in KY good luck finding high end flour here, Amazon does carry some , going mill direct would be nice except the shipping charges are more than cost of the product. I am thinking of cutting some All Purpose flour with Rye or whole wheat and see what I come up with. Some suppliers want to sell 25lb bags, I don't have enough room for that, I would have to start buying 5 - 10 gallon food grade buckets to store it all.
I ordered mine from the mills. The shipping is very expensive. I’m guessing Janie’s Mill might be best for you as it is in Illinois. Scroll to the bottom of this page for links to the mill websites. thesourdoughjourney.com/products/ King Arthur and Bobs Red Mill are widely available supermarket bread flours that make good sourdough loaves. I’d order a bag of whole wheat from one of the mills and use 10-20% whole wheat with those bread flours. That would make a nice, flavorful loaf.
@@thesourdoughjourney Janie's Mill was the one that the shipping cost exceeded the cost of the product. Ill keep looking around next time I will scroll down more.
I have some limited experience with einkorn. It has lower protein forming properties than other flours so I recommend blending it in (20%) with bread flour at first, then increasing the percentage on each bake to get a feel for it.
Thank you, I watch 3 of your videos. How to make sour dough starter, wow that was excellent. I finally got that right . I used it on the 12th day. Then I watch the video with your brother, on baking the bread. You were both entertaining and considering I could not figure out how to get the 80 F my husband actually liked my sour dough bread. I know I need to improve but you inspired me not to give up. Now I watch this video and maybe I was hoping you would used organic rye bread as one of the experiments but nevertheless I enjoyed it. Some bread flour does not have the additive potassium bromate. It is used to strengthens dough and allows for greater oven spring and higher rising in the oven. However, my cancer group says it not healthy for you because of carcinogens. I googled it and Brands like Bob's Red Mill, Gold Medal, and King Arthur Baking do not use potassium bromate in their products. I am not sure if this is true. That is why I thought it would be included in your video. Thanks again
hello So here is my question ; the high of the dough is 30% for bulk fermentation so no matter what the high of the dough is it will be will be the same for differents flour no matter the strengh of the dough I wiill assume time is faster with strong flour but rise in high will remain the same right , let say I use 2o % of buck wheat or spelt the high 30 $ be the same but ferment faster
In general you should start with the percentage rise guidance with all flours. Some flours will “show the rise” more or less than others. If it under proofs at the guidance, then add 10% more to the target rise next time, etc. Once you dial it in for a specific recipe and temperature, it does not change.
King Arthur also makes a whole grain flour from hard white wheat which they say has signifigantly different flavor and texture compared to 100% hard red wheat. it may also have a more finely ground bran from how it is described. I haven't found it locally yet so all I know is the marketing. The stone ground flours' ash content may be partially due to stone dust(though it can't be the whole story or the stones would be wearing out super fast.), and partially due to germ content. Germ has an ash content between bran and endosperm. The germ must be removed from "whole grain" flour made with high speed steel mills because of the heat generated degrading the fats. Though it would be plausable to grind the germ separate at a low speed and re-combine it later I don't know if that is common practice. Stone grinding is a much cooler process so germ does not need to be removed. Still I agree the 1.4% ash with 80% extraction seems quite high, maybe the cultivar has a naturally higher percent ash. It could also be due to that mill using a poor extraction method that is discarding a lot of endosperm. There is a market for what is known as "wheat middlings" in livestock feeds, middlings are the crude but fairly high-protein extractions, other than pure bran or pure germ.(each of which also have a market)
Thank you. I’ve tried the King Arthur “White Whole Wheat” if that’s what you are referring to? It bakes more like refined white flour but is apparently whole grain. I was not really happy with it and only tried it a few times.
I’ve been baking with unbleached flour (10% protein) mixed with vital wheat gluten. Lately I have been wondering how suitable my mixture is as a substitute for bread flour. That would have been an interesting flour to put up against the other six bread fours.
I’ve been following your videos and am fascinated by your experiments! I was wondering, have you looked into how the size of the loaf affects bulk fermentation and eventual outcome? I have tried the tartine recipe as one large loaf and it completely flattens out.
I have not seen a difference. But Foodgeek did and experiment on this. I think his experiment was inconclusive. If I had to guess, I’d say larger loaves produce more open crumb. But haven’t tested it.
Great video, thank you! The swedish flour names really are quite confusing. We call whole wheat flour ”Graham”, and that is probably because when you translate whole wheat in swedish it spells ”Helvete”, wich also means hell, wich is pretty funny. Bread flour is just called special flour. It would be intresting to know If other languages also have strange flour names!
I used yeast to make whole wheat focaccia 2 ways, and used Walmart Wheat Montana Bronze Chief Premium 100% WW flour 5g protein per 38g 1/4 cup and compared with King Arthur 13.8% WW flour 4g/ 1/4 cup. Initially the King Arthur soaked up water and dough thick. The Montana Walmart flour was sticky and I had to fold it more. BUT Montana WW Montana ROSE MORE in the final bake. So what is the relationship of drying effect WW flour to eventual rise later? Luckily I now have a sour dough starter (thanks to your advice) and I won’t need yeast again. (Chloramine in my city). Thanks for all your info. Maybe Walmart Montana Flour 5g protein/38g 1/4 cup will be of use. They have a white flour also.
For me, once you have the protein worked out for the type of hydrations you want to work with, I prefer blends of flours that results in the taste I like. Taste was easily my primary determining factor when choosing what flours to use.
Thanks. Yes, I had never used any of these flours before. Now that I’ve tried them for the first time, some of them would have made sense to blend in at smaller quantities. Just reading the labels of these flours, they were all described as “bread flours” and it was difficult to tell anything meaningful about them without baking and tasting them.
@@thesourdoughjourney 100% agree. I typically do the same. Try them individually then work into some blends. I have also been making my starters with the same flours I use in the final dough, I’m mindful to keep the flour blend consistent through the whole process. Also thanks for the Janie’s mill suggestions, I have ordered some from there to try out!
Had a terrible time with dough being really sticky during slap and fold. I thought I measured everything correctly. I ended up not doing all the slap and folds because it was so sticky. Will be curious to see what kind of loaf I get.
Hi Tom, I understood that levain is an out spring of your starter. So I thought/ read like a starter needed to be close to its peak, like double in size or more. So I am not sure why 30% would be ok . Would that delay the rise ?
Yes the leaven is an offshoot of my starter. I usually do not like to let it double because it becomes more acidic. I usually use the leaven when it has risen about 50%. The 30% rise was probably a little early and all of my temperatures were much colder than usual so everything got off to a slow start. It I still made wonderful loaves but it just took longer than expected. In some ways it is just personal preference. A 50% rise will rise slightly slower but will be less acidic. A 100% rise will rise the dough slightly faster but with more acidity and higher risk of overproofing.
Hi Tom I watched this very interesting video ! Here is some info or questions : - Does one or all of your flour contains ascorbic acid or others "additionals" products ? Here in France we oftenly see supermarket flour with those additives that can render a boosted version of bread but some peoples want pure flour (that I have) - I noticed that even your flour with less fibers of wheat are very high in protein ! to give you data : my whole-wheat flour is at 12g of proteins, the bread flour (T80) is at 11g and the T65 is at 11g too (between bread and allpurpose flour) but I think it could come from the difference between our fields / seasons etc and also the genetics inside the wheat variety - Did you cooked your bread with always the same dutch oven ? In a previous video you said that you had better result with one over another so I ask if it did not influence your results ? :) - For the bulk-o-matic system , I never or rarely have bubble on top but oftenly on bottom, is it the same for you or maybe I don't fold correctly ? sorry for all those questions ! your content is the most detailed on sourdough and not frustrating, I prefer this 1 hour video over a "just do this and wait 4 hours and tada :) !!" Thanks a lot !
Thanks for the feedback and great questions. 5 of the 6 flours I used here do not have any additives. The one supermarket flour (#2 Pillsbury) is considered to be "enriched" with some vitamins and minerals added, but nothing that impacts the baking, as far as I know. I baked these in two dutch ovens (my two largest ones). I've been doing some experiments with these and I'm now using an infrared thermometer to preheat them both to exactly the same temperature. I compared the ovenspring between the two dutch ovens (I did not show this part in the video), there was not difference between my 7-liter oval, and my 6-liter round. However, because I was using different flours, there were two possible variables in play with each loaf, but I did not see any noticeable difference in them based on Dutch oven size. I'm still doing more experiments on this topic (I am using 5 thermometers in my oven when I bake now!)
@@thesourdoughjourney Haha ok thanks ! I didn't know you were that detailed for temperature but I guess if we want a constant value of experiment we have to be precise :) thanks for the answers ! also for flour made with "grinstone" I think it has a better value because of all organics components inside and is usually "fresher", see you next time !
Regarding the bulk-o-matic test, you may not always see bubbles on top. This is one of the least predictable variables, but it is just another data point to consider along with the other 8 variables. It is not a requirement, but if you do have bubbles, it can help confirm the other indicators. I hope this helps. And thanks for your comment regarding the shorter videos. Those really drove me crazy when I was learning to bake. That's why I started making these longer ones. I'm trying to replicate the way people learned to bake in old times, watching someone do every step and having them explain the small changes that are important to notice. Thanks again. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
Does the extraction rate necessarily assume the bran and germ are sifted out first? I’m wonder if this is necessarily true because in the Janie’s Mill High Protein Flour the 1.4 ash content suggests it has a lot of bran, right. But the 80% extraction rate says 20% of the initial wheat input was sifted out. So do these two metrics (extraction rate and ash content) together suggest that 20% of the bran, germ AND endosperm were sifted out? I’m trying to make sense of this. What am I missing. This is all fascinating BTW. You create the most informative, thought provoking content.
Thank you. It’s a bit perplexing, but you need to think about how finely the flour is ground. A coarse grind with 20% extraction will still leave behind a lot of bran and germ. A finer grind with 20% extracting will take out mostly bran and germ. I believe this is why the two stone-ground flours have very high ash content even at 80% extraction. Because there are big chunks of bran and germ still remaining in the flour. I also had a hard time getting my head around this but once I visualized the size of the milled granules it makes sense. Large chunks (bran and germ) won’t sift through a fine screen so your actually sifting out the good stuff (endosperm) in a coarse milled flour. I’ll demonstrate this in the next video in this series. I’ll do 6 more flours in a few months.
@@thesourdoughjourney thank you. Your answer fits with what I was thinking. Bottom line is that it’s not enough to know the extraction rate as the grind matters too and so knowing the ash content is important. I look forward to your next flout video.
I have just started watching but you have me a little confused. You are saying the protein content is determined by how well sifted the flour is, my understanding is that the protein content is determined by the type of wheat being ground and of course actions taken by the farmer, I know that nitrogen applied at the right time in the wheat growing process can have a significant effect on increasing the protein contend amongst other things. Basically hard wheat, red or white has a high protein content and is best for bread. Soft wheat, red or white has a low protein content and is used to make cake and pastry flour. All purpose flower has a medium protein content and it is achieved by blending hard wheat flour with soft wheat flour. I shall continue watching!
It’s a combination of both. The “baseline” protein continent is determined by the wheat, but when some of the germ is sifted out of refined flours, it reduces the protein content.
I’ve done a little experimentation with this and it’s hard to create a formula because different types of flour have different gluten forming properties, which are independent of the protein content. The protein content is roughly correlated with gluten, but not exactly. Especially when you get into whole grain flours or “ancient” grains.
Watching this again today I wonder why should we care about flour selection if hydration can compensate for the differences? In one sense, experimentally controlled equal hydration is an unnecessary constraint you don't have to apply when you're just trying to make the best loaf.. Maybe the high protein ones can survive more acidic starter? I made a great loaf with high protein flour sour old starter and fermenting it to the edge of danger (75° 75%). I need to do that again with a control.
I studied and studied your sourdough for busy people method… took temperatures, measured as accurately as I could, and still came out with sticky dough - so sticky it wouldn’t lift up off the silicone mat… it was a disaster, and since I followed all of your instructions to the LETTER, I can only conclude that it was my choice of flour. I had no idea how to find out protein content until I’ve watched this video (guess I will be sending some emails in the morning to inquire!). If I continue to use the flower that I have, I think I will need to reduce the hydration… Maybe try 70% next time? I am in Canada and a 5 pound bag of King Arthur bread flour is $40 so that’s not an option here lol instead I bought locally grown bread, flour and whole wheat flour… But obviously they do not soak in the water as much as KA! Disappointed in my first attempt, but it’s all part of the learning process! I documented everything on the worksheet and in my little notebook. Onward and upward!
Absolutely start at 70% hydration and then work your way up. I am using a “thirsty” flour here. I also use cold water, and make sure your starter is at peak. A past peak starter will make very sticky dough.
I will do that next time for sure. I’ve done nothing but stay at home watching my starter for the last three days (worse than having an infant!) as I attempt to strengthen it. When I used it yesterday, it appeared to be at peak (it had doubled but not tripled and the top had just started to flatten) but maybe I didn’t read it right and the starter is the problem. 🤷♀️
i have a question please so the european T65 ( ash number) can be considered as bread flour? or not nessearly to have high protein ? where i live the have T65 but on the bag the protein content is not mentioned, can i safely assume that it have high protein ?? thanks
There is no standard definition of “bread flour” but my definition is high protein (above 12%), refined (low ash content) and good gluten forming capabilities. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to draw a correlation between the “T65” and the protein content and gluten-forming capabilities. The protein content is usually listed separately. The gluten forming capability depends on the type of wheat. And, to add to the confusion, in some countries the T number is the extraction rate, not the ash number.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the explanation Yes true One place said that their T65 is 13% protein And the other place said it was 10.5 It is a science and you did a great jon explaining thanks
This is a really interesting topic. I'm Norwegian, and after following various American recipes, I have concluded that our flours are so different that it doesn't translate. Our standard "all purpose" wheat flour is what you'd call bread flour, 78% of the grain, 12.1% protein, good gluten development. But it can't handle the same hydration as American bread flour, it has to be adjusted down slightly, or it'll be soup. Take a sourdough starter for example, I'll add 90% of the water to match yours in consistency. Another solution for dough is to replace 50% with a Tipo 0 flour to make it tolerate higher hydration and behave in a similar way.
Yes, American flours are generally “thirsty” flours that can tolerate high hydration.
Outstanding! I am just starting out baking sourdough and you have answered most of my questions while providing the visual information that a book really can’t deliver. Thank you, looking forward to the next installment.
Thank you! Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
Lots of good stuff there too.
Yesterday (16 feb 2023) I had a demo day on sourdough ('desem' in Dutch (and actually it's 'zuurdesem' but bakers are afraid that the sour part will shield the loafs off from potentially customers)) with Master Boulanger and Master Pattisier Robèrt van Beckhoven. Your video so completed his story and I thank you for that. His comment for the day was that bread is a play (or game) of grain and water (and a bit of salt). Grain for taste, water for quality and salt to compliment both. In contradiction to your story he mentioned both wheat and rye since those grains can embrace the most water (and thus your comment of a dough being thirsty made sense). But watching your video I suddenly understand the 'T' values we use in the Netherlands. I understand the high protein content on the labels and the effects it has on your loaf. I'm so excited that this journey of understanding is also a journey of taste and vision. As mentioned in a previous comment: "I'm a fan". Thank you very much.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback. Yes, we do not have the "T" value on our flours here in the US. I wish we did. Our flour labeling is not very good, so it leaves a lot of questions left to trial and error. We use the protein percentage as an approximation, but it is always accurate.
Thank you.
Wow.. Tom, I’ve watched this entire video start to finish, over a hour..oh my, I’m definitely a bread nerd. I’m ready for the toaster oven, butter, jam, taste test next! Thank you immensely for your production.
👍🏽🇺🇸🌎😋
Thank you so much for watching and for the feedback. I appreciate it.
OMG if you apologize one more time for either the length of your video or the granularity, I will personally come to your kitchen to shout you down! IGNORE ANYONE WHO COMPLAINS about those things, you don't need an audience of impatient bakers anyway. The content I've seen so far is fabulous for anyone serious about learning or even hearing from someone with a shared passion. At first I sensed a little impatience from YOU however, because you've been a bit condescending towards what you seem to consider repetitive and/or dumb questions or comments, so I say again, ignore ignore ignore, keep up the great work and just direct yourself towards one audience: of like-minded bakers! I have more comments for you but am out of time rn, and oh, I need to share a story about the loaves I made that kept proofing IN THE REFRIDGERTOR, it was insane! Thanks again for the great videos!
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
Agree
Tom your attention and explanation to all details makes you the best sourdough educator. I just watched this for the first time. What I just learned was so extremely helpful. I now feel ready to experiment with different flour. Thank you for teaching us like no one else does. My journey is only 5 Months long. When I hit a roadblock I find one of your videos that helps me troubleshoot. I’m excited to be on this new journey.
Thank you 🙏
Thanks for all your work Tom! Using the bulkomatic now to get my fermentation right! :)
Thank you!
Absolutely superb video and I'm only a quarter way through. There's no other bread making site on the internet that even comes close to this one!
Thank you! I always put a lot of work into these videos and appreciate the feedback.
I absolutely LOVE your videos! I finally do not need to follow any other channels for info. Thank you!
Thank you. 🙏
I am addictive to your channel, Tom. I’ve learnt so much. Thank you for all the hard work.
Thank you.
I could mainline that #3, right up my alley. Thanks again Tom. Great investigative work.
Thanks. That was a nice loaf. Very firm, high protein dough with a nice wheat flavor. And a super consistent crumb and nice texture.
Thank you for this great video, I just ran into it yesterday. Watch it in one sitting, no pauses. I too acquired the same proofer box and found for my kitchen that I need to set the temperature to 84 degrees for the dough to reach the right temperature. Thanks again.
Thanks!
Thank you for making this video. Your analogy between a kernel of wheat and an orange was so helpful. I studied your videos during the 2020 - 2021 lockdown period. Took pages of notes and made some decent loaves of bread. When it felt safe to go out again I let my starter die and did not make any bread. After seeing this video, I’m raring to get back into the game. Thankfully I received your email to tell me about your new videos. Will also check out your website. That will be very useful. I really like your videos. They are concise and packed with pertinent information.
Thank you for the feedback. I’m happy to hear that you’ve found my videos to be helpful. And I think you’ll really like the website. I have lots of additional, new content there also.
What an amazing video. I wondered about flours and how they affect results. Love how you instruct, without tipping your hand too much to your bias 🤓. Nicely done.
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.
I love the quality of the detail you went to with this it's totally worthwhile info
Thank you!
Thank you so much for your videos. I've used bread flour from the supermarket and since I've used a proof brand flour, I'll never go back. Now I can see with your video the difference between flours.
Thanks for the feedback.
Great video! I've been experimenting with and mixing flours since I started sourdough over two years ago. Now I have a much better understanding of the various flours. This will help me greatly. Thank you!!
Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. I learned a lot making this video! Who knew flour could be so complicated?
Awesome video Tom, you’re doing all amateur bakers a huge service by tipping the scales (forgive the pun) of baking from an “art” to more of a “science”. BTW, absolutely love the crumb on Cairnsprings (Loaf 3), that uniformity is to die for.
Thank you! This video was really a revelation for me. I did not realize how much of the crumb style starts with the type of flour. Home bakers are driving themselves crazy trying to replicate the crumb photos they see on Instagram. Without knowing what type of flour the pro bakers are using, it may be literally impossible to replicate the crumb.
I really appreciate how much quality work that goes into each of your videos. I'm new to baking but am already obsessed. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.
Thank you. I really appreciate the feedback.
Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
Tom, you are the best. I’ve been looking at Central Milling and Cairnsprings and particularly Janie’s Mill because Janie’s mill is the closest to my home. I was worried about not knowing how it might compare to my limited experience (KA bread flour and Bob’s Red Mill Artisan BF). You answered ALL my questions! I think I will stick with going local, but play around with using Janie’s Mill flours to blend with a second bread flour. I would love to see you experiment in future with partial whole wheat loaves comparing different ancient or heirloom grains (ie spelt, emmer, einkorn, or red fife, turkey red etc). Thanks for all the hard work you put into this channel!
Thank you. I will move into whole grains later this year.
Hope you will cover fresh milled flour. I keep having to adapt recipes but have had varying success. Following recipes made with fresh milled grain is great but it leaves out important people I enjoy following like you!
Thank you so much for the feedback. This is on my list of topics for early 2023.
Excellent video. Well executed, thoughtfully presented, and highly informative. Thank you!
Thank you.
Fantastic video, Tom! You put a lot of work into these videos, in our benefit!
Understanding flours is a continuous challenge for me, since I watch/read recipes for all over the world, every country with its own way of classification. It is a challenge even for the flours in my country (we have 650, 550, 000 and whole wheat flour, and in the same category we find flours with major differences of their characteristics). I even asked some vloggers about the characteristics of the flours they used, to try to find similar ones in my country... with no answer or with not satisfying answers...
But your video helped me understand the meaning of each characteristic! Thank you! And good luck!
I am also waiting your video with backing loafs in different kinds and sizes of Dutch Ovens. ;)
Thank you. This video was really an education for me. I did not realize how confusing flour can be. It is no wonder people struggle. I’m still doing tests on that Dutch ovens. That is REALLY complicated. I have 5 thermometers in my oven now and still can’t figure it out.
@@thesourdoughjourney Wow! Good luck! It really is a Research Institute in your kitchen! Thanks again! Both for your answer and for all your work! Btw - the website is excellent! :)
Wow, this video is fantastic. Thank you for teaching and your experiments has helped me tremendously in understanding about flour.
Thank you. 🙏
I watched with great interest the whole video. Although I love great sourdough bread I don't eat enough to justify making bread with other than a yeasted dough. Much of what you have presented is transferable to yeasted dough, but I wonder if you say a word about using King Arthur bread flour with a little more vital gluten flour added to bring it up to, say, 13% gluten. I'm still early in my bread making experience but far enough along be starting to achieve some consistency. Thank you for producing these videos. They're very helpful.
Thank you for the feedback. I use King Arthur Bread Flour often and the standard bread flour at 12.7% protein makes very nice loaves. I don't think you need to add more vital wheat gluten to it, but you certainly could try. I also use Central Milling High Mountain High Gluten flour at 13.5% protein. It is noticeably firmer, taller and more open than the King Arthur loaves, but the crumb also gets a bit tough and chewy when you start to get over 13% protein.
Great video once again.I have been getting useful knowledge from each and every one of your experiments and it keeps on coming..!!Thanks Tom..!
Thank you for the feedback. Also please check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
When you started describing all the flours I knew the Old-World would be my style. I will pick some up. Thanks so much for your tests.
Thank you. I really love that flour.
Thank vey muy for your clear presentation and analysis of the 6 flours. 🙏🙏
Thank you.
This is an excellent video. I was struggling with my sourdough after making over 30 loaves with an “Artisan” type flour. When I switched to KA organic bread flour, my loaves looked fantastic. I had almost given up but it turned out to be the flour.
I tested this again this week and the loaf made with the “Artisan” flour again turned out gummy and dense. I went through 50 pounds of this flour -I guess I’m a slow learner lol
Thanks!
A valuable and clearly laid out experiment that makes me want to try blend some of that stone-ground flour with my go to King Arthur bread flour.
I've never tried Central Milling but I can see you really like that flour. I hope this war in the Ukraine ends soon to save lives and to keep inflation from exploding any higher in wheat and energy. Thanks for all of your hard work. I watched the entire video from start to finish.
Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I recommend blending in some different varieties of whole wheat (preferably stone ground) with the KA Bread Flour. I'd recommend going up to about 20% so you can taste the different wheats and see how they ferment differently. I saw today that wheat prices are expected to rise 400%, so now would be a good time to stock up on some flour. Also, thanks for checking out my new website. I value your feedback.
I adore this video! Congratulations Tom!
I do have a question. Looking at the European flour chart at 16:46, I see that you label a type 1050 flour as a "Light whole wheat flour", but can it not be considered as an "high extraction bread flour"? How much overlap is there between the two terms?
Thank you. The bread terms and metrics are all over the place. “High extraction” very much could be “light whole wheat” on that chart.
There is really no consistency and I struggled to try to get things to line up in these charts, but I figured something close was better than nothing. It’s all so inconsistent.
I’m working a larger global survey of flours and hope to do another video on this topic with a larger sample and better classification.
I’m also calling some flours “high protein” (which they are) but they also are high extraction. And the “stone ground” flours I used here are almost in a class by themselves. They behave quite differently than other flours with similar stats.
I learned a lot making this video!
@@thesourdoughjourney I know what you mean.
Israel has a similar naming standard as the US (Bread flour, AP flour) but as you showed, it's not standardized: supermarket bread flour is 11g protein per 100g, but I can find 13.6g per 100g from the very few specialized flour mills.
Romania has a different system altogether and it's all over the map. Bread flour here is termed 650 flour, which you'd think equates to France's T65, but we also have flours like 000, which is kind of similar to Italy's grind-size system (both having similar protein content per 100g), adding to the confusion.
I have access to German flour, so that's why I was asking about Type 1050 flour.
I remember When I started taking my bread baking seriously I really tried to figure out what should I look for in a "bread flour" and it was a challenge. I would have loved to find this video back then.
Thanks! Here is one of the best sources I’ve found. Not perfect but a pretty good starting point. www.theartisan.net/Flours_One.htm
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you Tom, this looks like a great article!
By the way, Congratulation on your new B&T proofer! May it serve you well and of course, it would be lovely if you could do a review of it in the future.
Take care, happy baking and good luck with all your experiments.
Another well thought out and executed session. I really enjoy your work. Thank you for your time on this production!
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
Wonderful video once again. Everything I want to experiment with or questions I have about sourdough bread baking you have covered in your videos. Still making my way through them all but they are all great and you do a very good articulate way of explaining it all. I just ordered a grain mill cause I want to be able to control the flour I use for our bread even more than picking flour from stores or online suppliers. I'm in Canada and we have some great grain producers in some of our provinces so I've been trying to read up on getting full berry grains and grinding my own flours so this video you made helps me a great deal to know when I do grind my own, what to look for in the grains I pick and what parts of the grain to focus on to use in my bread flours. Thanks again for all of your hard work and time you put into this.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback. What type of grain mill did you buy?
@@thesourdoughjourney I just ordered a Mockmill 100. Hopefully it's enough for our family's use and making some extra loaves to trade bread with our neighbors for things like eggs, veggies etc :) If I think we need a bigger one I can sell that one and move up to the next size up but for starting off I think it should be a good choice. I watched a lot of video's comparing different mills and for home use everyone seemed to really like this one and it can also make larger size grinds for making cereals, grits etc too.
Mockmill is a popular choice. Let me know how you like it. I’m thinking of buying one later in 2023.
@@thesourdoughjourney Right on. I will keep you posted. It should be here late this week and I should have whole berry grain by the time it gets here to try out.
Great experiment. It really shows the effect using different flours can have in your crumb... amazing! I have to say that I love high extraction flours (as long as they are finely milled), the flavor is spectacular.
Thank you for the feedback! I really enjoyed this experiment.
I really enjoyed this. I’m getting a Mockmill stone mill for my birthday ( not until September, I hope my wife will take pity on me😂). I’m planning to experiment with #40 and #60 sifters to remove a portion of the bran, I think I can end up with something like the two high ash loaves you baked. I’m going to use locally grown organic wheats from Ontario, we grow great wheat here, winter wheat and spring wheat! It will be very interesting to experiment with flours made from different types of wheat! I can also get some soft wheat to make my wife pastry flour and make a blend of soft and hard to make an all purpose type flour for things like corn bread.
Klaus
That sounds great! Good luck.
Great work from you to show different characteristics of bread flours....very useful content as always from your channel
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.
Thank you for your great videos :)
I am living in Germany and turns out I was using an all-purpose flour instead of a bread flour.
The 550 worked well but I will be definitely trying out the 812 flour soon.
Thank you! Good luck. Please report back with your findings. I don’t have a lot of info on the flours of Germany. There is another sourdough TH-cam channel, The Bread Code, which is from Germany. You may find some additional info there.
I also live in Germany and have been using Type 1050 after realizing that Type 450 is AP or cake flour. 1050 works fine for me, but I will try to find 812 (not sure it is at every store).
thanks to this video i was able to find a very cheap local flour that is 78-80% extraction with 13% protein
i think i can consider that as bread flour right??
i usually buy an exported " bread flour" that was good but very very expensive( 15$ per kilo)
your chanel helped me a lot to understand bread making , best from most of the books i read.
now i know the mistakes that i have been making
thanks again for such an amazing chanel
God bless
Thank you. Yes, those specifications sound good for bread flour. Please report back on how it works out.
Can't wait for Tom to produce the Beef Stew Journey!
Yes!
beautiful , i was struggling to understand it, you explain thing really well
Thank you.
Truly appreciate all your effort and time!
Thank you.
I am absolutely obsessed with Cairnspring and the way the flavor pairs with sourdough. Awesome flour. Just wish it was more affordable but I get why it isn’t.
It is a fabulous flour. I just heard they are now selling new 5lb bags, so the pricing may be better.
Appreciate that I get to benefit from your unabashed geekiness
Thank you!
I absolutely Love your channel, its helped me so much. you're an excellent teacher. Thanks!
Thank you.
Only halfway through and really enjoying so far! I let my leaven ferment in the proofing box overnight at around 76f when it’s cold because I was having a similar issue
Thanks. Yes, in retrospect that would have been a good plan!
@@thesourdoughjourney was a great video BTW. I can’t get most flours like the ones you were using without taking a mortgage out on the house 😂 but very interesting to watch. B&T Proofing box takes a few uses to get used to, but once you are it’ll be one of your fav pieces of equipment!
Hello Tom, I love your videos. I’m both learning & baking a lot. I was wondering what side batard bannetons are you using for your experiments. I like to bake smaller loaves you did with this experiment. Thanks!
I used small loaf pans as my shaping baskets.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks!
Best flour video everrrr
U ve described everything related to flour in sourdough indestry
Great job
Thank you!
Hi Tom,
Great video in a long line of wonderful material. I am fortunate to be located close to Cairnspring Mills and really have enjoyed all of their flours. My understanding is that they are all stone ground.
I have followed you since the beginning and both enjoyed and appreciated every minute.
Thank you! I did not realize the Cairnsprings was stone ground. Thanks for that clarification. I could feel the whole wheat in the dough.
I appreciate the feedback. And thanks for sticking with me from the start. Lots of bakers have come and gone in the past two years.
Also, please check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
I'm adding a lot of great new content there in addition to the videos.
Hi Tom,
Have you ever considered an experiment with different starter feeding ratios (1:1:1, 1:5:5, 1:10:10 etc.) and how that impacts time to peak and time at peak? It would be curios to see the results with other variables (e.g temp ) held constant. Having that knowledge provides another tool when planning a bake.
@@brucedianehall2086 I have done some experimenting with this but have not made a video. The bottom line is that it takes a huge change in feeding ratio to significantly impact the rise time. I was not able to double the rise time until I got up to a 1:20:20 ratio (as compared to 1:1:1). I’ve only tested this once so can’t say with certainty, but I’ll work on this in the future an will publish something.
Thanks Tom for the quick reply and considering my request. My sense has been that the time to peak has been similar but that the time at peak seems longer with higher ratio differences.
@@brucedianehall2086 yes. Higher feeding ratios reduce the acidity so the gluten deteriorates more slowly and it retains the peak height longer.
Thank you so much for this video. In the past I've tried understanding flour but ended up with my head spinning. I've been trying--off and on--to come up with a signature/daily bread. I know the characteristics I want: high nutritional value, a relatively tighter crumb so it can be used for sandwiches without mayo or tuna or eggs dripping through, flavor, toasts nicely, & has a crisp but not thick crust. I've managed, somewhat successfully, using 50% "bread" flour, 30% whole wheat flour & 20% random flour & baking at 450F. I never considered the impact of the flour type/brand. For flavor 20% spelt does the trick but comes with undesirable characteristics. After watching your video, I'm planning to be more methodical & changing 1 flour at a time. Plan to start with the ww flour & keeping notes! BTW I love your bulk-o-matic and desired dough temp calculator both were game changers!
Thank you!
Another great experiment time real good information thank you for your time
Thanks.
Tom, great information and well put together video but I do have a question, why not mill your own flour from wheat berries? You could custom blend your own bread flours and the quality would be superior due to the freshness of the flour. There are great countertop electric stone ground mills that really only take minutes to mill your flour every day and have infinite coarseness settings.
Thanks! I’m moving in that direction later this summer. I try to keep my experiments a focused on what most home bakers would use. It I were just baking for personal use / enjoyment, I’d be home milling now.
I just rewatched this video - such a great experiment. I love watching your process and learned SO MUCH. Thank you for your amazing channel. I was wondering if you've done any experimentation with whole wheat flours. I use 25-35% whole wheat, and have been really enjoying milling my own flour. I actually really like the taste of hard white flour (I get mine from Breadtopia) but I know that brings down the strength of the flour. I am also trying to find a different grain source (Breadtopia's shipping is very expensive) and the local vendors here mostly only carry hard red or soft white. So, I was wondering if you've experimented at all with different whole grains or have any insights to share. I might just have to start my own experiment if not. :) Thanks for any input.
Thank you. I do not work much with whole grains or fresh milled flours. There is a whole grain sourdough group on Facebook that is quite good. I recommend it.
Wow Tom, great video! I've heard that mills often bump up their protein levels with added Gluten flour. How do you think this effects the overall flour? And, what are we doing to the balance of our flour if we do the same at home?
Thanks Barry. In my experience, if you have 12.5% protein you can make a great loaf. Most supermarket bread flours are in this range.
If you go above 13.5% the looks improve (e.g., more height), but the crumb gets pretty tough and chewy at these higher levels.
I don’t think there are a lot of other impacts from higher protein. I think the flavor and fermentation are largely not impacted by higher protein levels.
If you’re milling you’re own flour at home you can add vital wheat gluten, but it would need to be trial and error because the starting protein % of home milled flour is unknown.
Thanks for this video, Tom.
You pulled out Central Milling-High Mountain High Gluten so I’m wondering, how it compares to Central Milling-Old World Bread Flour? Do you like one better than the other?
I love the CM High Mountain. I’ve used that for the past year or more. I often blend it 50/50 with Central Milling Artisan Bakers Craft Plus. This was my first time using the Old World flour. It was my favorite of this group of flours. CM High Mountain by itself is a bit chewy. It needs to be blended down, in my opinion. I also add 10% whole wheat. Old World just works right out of the bag. Beautiful flour.
You’re incredible!! Good job and THANK YOU!
Thank you 🙏
PS, you made my husband and I bust out laughing in one of your master class lessons, thank God for your sense of humor😁
Thank you!
I am SO happy to have discovered your videos, exceedingly informative and educational, and I appreciate the length-how else to get all that info in?! Have been studying your methods, can't wait to start baking (my experience is with no-knead breads). I'm wondering how the results of the six flours you used here compare to loaves made with King Arthur Bread Flour and Central Milling High Mountain? Also, have you ever tried adding vital wheat gluten to raise the protein content of a lower-protein flour, and what would be the formula?
Thank you for the feedback. I use King Arthur Bread flour in my early videos. It makes good bread (better than Pillsbury but not as good as the “artisan” flours, but a good consistent performer). I use Central Milling High Mountain in most of my recent videos. The best example is my “Art and Alchemy” series. It is a spectacular flour with a wild, open crumb and tall height. I actually blend it down now with 35% Central Milling Artisan Bakers Craft Plus because when used alone it is a bit tough and chewy (but always looks great).
I have not used vital wheat gluten. I believe people add 2% of total flour weight. It can improve some lower protein or highly-refined flours.
Thanks!
@@thesourdoughjourney Tom, thank you so much for your prompt and helpful reply. Until I gain my sourdough legs, i don't want to spend exorbitant prices on flour... FYI, I know of no other youtuber who so diligently and caringly responds to every comment and inquiry, even on older posts. You are a gem, sir.
Thank you! Also check out my website. Lots of updated info there thesourdoughjourney.com
Another epic video Tom! Just out of curiosity, how did you land on a 1:10:10 feeding ratio for your starter?
Thanks! That’s what is recommended in Tartine for an overnight leaven. It just slows it down enough to make it overnight without going too far.
simplisty informative and excitement way you introduce this matters.we appreciate that's. so thank you very much.👍
Thank you!
Thanks Tom!
Fantastic video!
Thanks!
Fantastic video! I learned so much! Thank you
Thank you!
With modern agriculture the spring-winter designation is only of minor consideration for flour making. It is mainly a practical designation for the commodities markets which involve contracts for delivery on a certain date, and of course the price is effected by good or bad overall yields and reserve stocks from recent seasons. It is common to have a good spring crop but a bad winter crop(and vice versa) and grain-bins can only hold so much reserve, so the economic distinction makes sense.
A farmer is pretty much locked into winter or spring wheat based on local climate, so there is not significant swing between spring and winter production area aside from farmers choosing entirely different crops to balance the expected commodity prices. Soft wheat varieties grow better in high moisture areas and hard wheat in low moisture areas, the hardness is associated with protein but it also effects the percent of damaged starch due to milling and some other factors. (Pre-sprouting due to a wet pre-harvest is also an factor millers must consider as it changes enzyme content.)
Thanks!
Excellent video. I’ve been struggling with King Arthur’s APF (11.7%). It is quite wet like No1. It was helpful to see how the different flours baked up.
This is my first semester at The Institute. Great curriculum, small class size and excellent instructor. Don’t know anything about the sports program though.
Thank you. AP flour is tough. Try the King Arthur bread flour. It is a good flour for sourdough.
Regarding the sports program, we are building a new badminton court and hoping to field a team soon. I am bringing on two new faculty members for an upcoming video. Stay tuned.
@@thesourdoughjourney What I found interested about your experiment was that breads of 11.2% and 11.5% were called "bread flours" while KA calls their 11.7% flour "all purpose". It may simply be that since they have a bread flour at 12.5% they decided to just call the other flour all purpose.
The experience I've had with the recipe I'm experimenting with (450g flour, 300g water, 12g salt, 150g starter) is that the KA AP flour was very wet much like loaf No. 1 in your experiment. I reduced the water first to 280, then 270. Everything still takes longer and stays wet, although the loaf is better as I reduce the water. It does not appear to be as flat. It never looks quite right...yet. The crumb hasn't opened up much. I thought about reducing the water more but I then worried that it might affect the loaf in another way that is not wanted. The last time I cooked it using the 270g of water, the loaf darkened a lot and I didn't notice as much blistering on the outside crust. Of course, all of this could be affected by my starter too.
Question 1: Does the extra unabsorbed water just burn off completely during the baking process or does it affect the moistness of the final product?
As for badminton, those jocks are the worst.
Thank you.
Thanks. Yes, the naming conventions for "bread flours" are very inconsistent. I just found an "all purpose" flour at 12.5% protein that bakes up like a bread flour. That's why I made this video, to try to make sense of the specifications rather than the names on the labels.
The issue with your hydration may be the starter quantity you are using. It is quite high at 30% of the flour weight. Assuming your starter is equal parts flour and water, your starter includes 75g of water. You overall hydration is 75g water in starter plus 300g water = 375. Divide that by 450g flour weight and you have 83% overall hydration. Very high for AP flour.
If I were using AP flour in a 450g recipe, I would use 450g flour, 275g water, 9g salt and 90g starter. That's 71% overall hydration (45g of water in starter plus 275g water = 320 total water / 450 flour = 71%)
If you want to stick with 150g of starter, then reduce you water even more. You would need to take it down to 245g water to get to overall hydration of 71%. KA All Purpose should easily handle 71% hydration. I might be overshooting on the low side, but I'd start there, then add 5-10g water each time you bake and it will open up the crumb a bit more until it gets too high.
Also, higher starter quantities tend to break down the gluten more quickly and you're already starting with a lower protein flour.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you very much. That makes a lot of sense. I was wondering what role the starter played. I didn't even think of the water content of it. My starter zooms quick. It doubles within two hours and by about four hours it's 3X it's original volume. Somewhere between 6 and 8 hours it stops. Then it sits....forever. After a very long time, maybe 12 hours, it starts to reduce but even after 24 hours, it is not back to normal. I do a 1:1:1 feeding once a day. Even after 24 hours it's kind of pasty. Still learning how this works with levain too. It's not supposed to be rocket science! I'm starting to wonder if Von Braun could have pulled this off. :-)
Absolutely Wonderful. Great Video, you put this together perfectly. Very Educational.
Thank you. This one was educational for me too!
Superb content as always! Thank you!
Thank you!
I need a few more successful bakes under my belt, and then I’ll start messing with some more interesting flours. Thanks for all of your research.
Thanks. This experiment was really interesting for me. I had not really done much with different flours and it was quite educational.
I saw this and hoped you’d used your lab to look at rye, Khorasan, emmer, einkorn and spelt flours
Next time. These were the basics.
Radical experiment Tom, were these made with Cali or Cle? Thanks for these incredible videos, I've been learning so much. So whats going on with loaf #5? High extraction or .80% ash? The bag and the chart say .80% ash but then you compare it with the other loaves as an 80% extraction flour.
Thanks! These are all made with my Cali starter. I've retired CLE as a backup now. Good catch on #5. It is confusing. The Central Milling website (and labeling) is inconsistent. It is listed on their website as "Type 80" and ".80 Ash" but they also refer to it as an "80% extraction" flour. I should have listed the Ash content as .80 because I believe that is more accurate and the "80% extraction" may be a coincidence or possibly a mistake on their part. It could be both .80 ash and 80% extraction.
@@thesourdoughjourney I see, they describe it as high extraction sifted to 80% ash, so must be both, seems like they want to to market it as "Old World" while maintaining "New World" classification. So do you think it was the high extraction or .8ash that produced the qualities you liked so much about loaf #5? BTW Cali is a monster to ferment all those different flours, I guess this debunks the myth that you need to feed your starter the same flour you bake with...
Thanks. I don’t think I can really separate the qualities. The flavor comes out first, then the texture of the dough, which is a combination of the ash and extraction rate. Some of the other flours with higher ash % have more of the classic “whole wheat grittiness.” This one was so smooth and supple to work with.
I'm half way through and my head is exploding 🤯 .... In a good way! Occasionally I want to fast forward but I don't want to miss anything.
Thanks. Please let me know what you think when you’ve finished it.
You might put up some sources to buy some of these Flours, I live in a small town in KY good luck finding high end flour here, Amazon does carry some , going mill direct would be nice except the shipping charges are more than cost of the product. I am thinking of cutting some All Purpose flour with Rye or whole wheat and see what I come up with. Some suppliers want to sell 25lb bags, I don't have enough room for that, I would have to start buying 5 - 10 gallon food grade buckets to store it all.
I ordered mine from the mills. The shipping is very expensive. I’m guessing Janie’s Mill might be best for you as it is in Illinois. Scroll to the bottom of this page for links to the mill websites. thesourdoughjourney.com/products/
King Arthur and Bobs Red Mill are widely available supermarket bread flours that make good sourdough loaves.
I’d order a bag of whole wheat from one of the mills and use 10-20% whole wheat with those bread flours. That would make a nice, flavorful loaf.
@@thesourdoughjourney Janie's Mill was the one that the shipping cost exceeded the cost of the product. Ill keep looking around next time I will scroll down more.
Great info. I just bought some Einkorn organic red wheat flour from jovial. Have you tried to bake with this kind of wheat flour?
I have some limited experience with einkorn. It has lower protein forming properties than other flours so I recommend blending it in (20%) with bread flour at first, then increasing the percentage on each bake to get a feel for it.
Thank you, I watch 3 of your videos. How to make sour dough starter, wow that was excellent. I finally got that right . I used it on the 12th day. Then I watch the video with your brother, on baking the bread. You were both entertaining and considering I could not figure out how to get the 80 F my husband actually liked my sour dough bread. I know I need to improve but you inspired me not to give up.
Now I watch this video and maybe I was hoping you would used organic rye bread as one of the experiments but nevertheless I enjoyed it. Some bread flour does not have the additive
potassium bromate.
It is used to strengthens dough and allows for greater oven spring and higher rising in the oven. However,
my cancer group says it not healthy for you because of carcinogens. I googled it and Brands like Bob's Red Mill, Gold Medal, and King Arthur Baking do not use potassium bromate in their products. I am not sure if this is true. That is why I thought it would be included in your video. Thanks again
I prefer flours with no additives. King Arthur and Bobs Red Mill are good choices.
Updated on google some say gold medal has potassium, bromate and others don’t I would not use gold medal
Thanks. I don’t recommend it. I only used it here to compare a “supermarket” flour to the others.
Cairn Spring Mills is also stone ground.
Thank you. I realized that after I made this video!
hello So here is my question ; the high of the dough is 30% for bulk fermentation so no matter what the high of the dough is it will be will be the same for differents flour no matter the strengh of the dough I wiill assume time is faster with strong flour but rise in high will remain the same right , let say I use 2o % of buck wheat or spelt the high 30 $ be the same but ferment faster
In general you should start with the percentage rise guidance with all flours. Some flours will “show the rise” more or less than others. If it under proofs at the guidance, then add 10% more to the target rise next time, etc. Once you dial it in for a specific recipe and temperature, it does not change.
Excellent video. thank you
Thanks!
King Arthur also makes a whole grain flour from hard white wheat which they say has signifigantly different flavor and texture compared to 100% hard red wheat. it may also have a more finely ground bran from how it is described. I haven't found it locally yet so all I know is the marketing.
The stone ground flours' ash content may be partially due to stone dust(though it can't be the whole story or the stones would be wearing out super fast.), and partially due to germ content.
Germ has an ash content between bran and endosperm. The germ must be removed from "whole grain" flour made with high speed steel mills because of the heat generated degrading the fats. Though it would be plausable to grind the germ separate at a low speed and re-combine it later I don't know if that is common practice. Stone grinding is a much cooler process so germ does not need to be removed.
Still I agree the 1.4% ash with 80% extraction seems quite high, maybe the cultivar has a naturally higher percent ash.
It could also be due to that mill using a poor extraction method that is discarding a lot of endosperm. There is a market for what is known as "wheat middlings" in livestock feeds, middlings are the crude but fairly high-protein extractions, other than pure bran or pure germ.(each of which also have a market)
Thank you. I’ve tried the King Arthur “White Whole Wheat” if that’s what you are referring to? It bakes more like refined white flour but is apparently whole grain. I was not really happy with it and only tried it a few times.
Another awesome video! Thanks so much.
Thank you!
I’ve been baking with unbleached flour (10% protein) mixed with vital wheat gluten. Lately I have been wondering how suitable my mixture is as a substitute for bread flour. That would have been an interesting flour to put up against the other six bread fours.
I have not used vital wheat gluten, so I cannot say for certain, but I’ve seen other bakers use it with pretty good results.
I’ve been following your videos and am fascinated by your experiments! I was wondering, have you looked into how the size of the loaf affects bulk fermentation and eventual outcome? I have tried the tartine recipe as one large loaf and it completely flattens out.
I have not seen a difference. But Foodgeek did and experiment on this. I think his experiment was inconclusive.
If I had to guess, I’d say larger loaves produce more open crumb. But haven’t tested it.
@@thesourdoughjourney interesting, thanks!
Great video, thank you! The swedish flour names really are quite confusing. We call whole wheat flour ”Graham”, and that is probably because when you translate whole wheat in swedish it spells ”Helvete”, wich also means hell, wich is pretty funny.
Bread flour is just called special flour. It would be intresting to know If other languages also have strange flour names!
Thank you. Or, in the US where “all purpose” flour is for “all purposes except bread!”
I used yeast to make whole wheat focaccia 2 ways, and used Walmart Wheat Montana Bronze Chief Premium 100% WW flour 5g protein per 38g 1/4 cup and compared with King Arthur 13.8% WW flour 4g/ 1/4 cup. Initially the King Arthur soaked up water and dough thick. The Montana Walmart flour was sticky and I had to fold it more. BUT Montana WW Montana ROSE MORE in the final bake. So what is the relationship of drying effect WW flour to eventual rise later? Luckily I now have a sour dough starter (thanks to your advice) and I won’t need yeast again. (Chloramine in my city). Thanks for all your info. Maybe Walmart Montana Flour 5g protein/38g 1/4 cup will be of use. They have a white flour also.
I cannot say for certain, but when using whole grains flours, they generally are “thirsty” flours and they ferment more quickly.
Have you tried milling your own flour? Have you baked with freshly milled whole grain flour? Thank you for sharing your experiments and experience!
I have not. I’m planning to buy a home mill later this year. Stay tuned!
For me, once you have the protein worked out for the type of hydrations you want to work with, I prefer blends of flours that results in the taste I like. Taste was easily my primary determining factor when choosing what flours to use.
Thanks. Yes, I had never used any of these flours before. Now that I’ve tried them for the first time, some of them would have made sense to blend in at smaller quantities. Just reading the labels of these flours, they were all described as “bread flours” and it was difficult to tell anything meaningful about them without baking and tasting them.
@@thesourdoughjourney 100% agree. I typically do the same. Try them individually then work into some blends. I have also been making my starters with the same flours I use in the final dough, I’m mindful to
keep the flour blend consistent through the whole process.
Also thanks for the Janie’s mill suggestions, I have ordered some from there to try out!
good job
Thank you.
This is awesome wish i could make a sandwich mmm I am just starting a starter today
Thanks, good luck. Also, check out my website for tons of great info thesourdoughjourney.com
Had a terrible time with dough being really sticky during slap and fold. I thought I measured everything correctly. I ended up not doing all the slap and folds because it was so sticky. Will be curious to see what kind of loaf I get.
Sometimes your starter or flour can contribute to stickiness. What type of flour are you using?
Is there a way to tell how much glutenin and gliadin are contained in each flour?
Not that I know of, outside of a laboratory. The flour manufacturers don’t even publish it.
Hi Tom,
I understood that levain is an out spring of your starter. So I thought/ read like a starter needed to be close to its peak, like double in size or more. So I am not sure why 30% would be ok . Would that delay the rise ?
Yes the leaven is an offshoot of my starter. I usually do not like to let it double because it becomes more acidic. I usually use the leaven when it has risen about 50%. The 30% rise was probably a little early and all of my temperatures were much colder than usual so everything got off to a slow start. It I still made wonderful loaves but it just took longer than expected.
In some ways it is just personal preference. A 50% rise will rise slightly slower but will be less acidic. A 100% rise will rise the dough slightly faster but with more acidity and higher risk of overproofing.
Nice topic!
Thanks!
Does the chart at 11:28 mean that I can sift out the large particles of bran from whole wheat flour to get a high protein flour?
Yes, that is what some home millers do.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks
Hi Tom I watched this very interesting video ! Here is some info or questions :
- Does one or all of your flour contains ascorbic acid or others "additionals" products ? Here in France we oftenly see supermarket flour with those additives that can render a boosted version of bread but some peoples want pure flour (that I have)
- I noticed that even your flour with less fibers of wheat are very high in protein ! to give you data : my whole-wheat flour is at 12g of proteins, the bread flour (T80) is at 11g and the T65 is at 11g too (between bread and allpurpose flour) but I think it could come from the difference between our fields / seasons etc and also the genetics inside the wheat variety
- Did you cooked your bread with always the same dutch oven ? In a previous video you said that you had better result with one over another so I ask if it did not influence your results ? :)
- For the bulk-o-matic system , I never or rarely have bubble on top but oftenly on bottom, is it the same for you or maybe I don't fold correctly ?
sorry for all those questions ! your content is the most detailed on sourdough and not frustrating, I prefer this 1 hour video over a "just do this and wait 4 hours and tada :) !!"
Thanks a lot !
Thanks for the feedback and great questions. 5 of the 6 flours I used here do not have any additives. The one supermarket flour (#2 Pillsbury) is considered to be "enriched" with some vitamins and minerals added, but nothing that impacts the baking, as far as I know.
I baked these in two dutch ovens (my two largest ones). I've been doing some experiments with these and I'm now using an infrared thermometer to preheat them both to exactly the same temperature. I compared the ovenspring between the two dutch ovens (I did not show this part in the video), there was not difference between my 7-liter oval, and my 6-liter round. However, because I was using different flours, there were two possible variables in play with each loaf, but I did not see any noticeable difference in them based on Dutch oven size. I'm still doing more experiments on this topic (I am using 5 thermometers in my oven when I bake now!)
@@thesourdoughjourney Haha ok thanks ! I didn't know you were that detailed for temperature but I guess if we want a constant value of experiment we have to be precise :) thanks for the answers ! also for flour made with "grinstone" I think it has a better value because of all organics components inside and is usually "fresher", see you next time !
Regarding the bulk-o-matic test, you may not always see bubbles on top. This is one of the least predictable variables, but it is just another data point to consider along with the other 8 variables. It is not a requirement, but if you do have bubbles, it can help confirm the other indicators. I hope this helps. And thanks for your comment regarding the shorter videos. Those really drove me crazy when I was learning to bake. That's why I started making these longer ones. I'm trying to replicate the way people learned to bake in old times, watching someone do every step and having them explain the small changes that are important to notice. Thanks again. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com
@@thesourdoughjourney You're the best ! thanks !
Does the extraction rate necessarily assume the bran and germ are sifted out first? I’m wonder if this is necessarily true because in the Janie’s Mill High Protein Flour the 1.4 ash content suggests it has a lot of bran, right. But the 80% extraction rate says 20% of the initial wheat input was sifted out. So do these two metrics (extraction rate and ash content) together suggest that 20% of the bran, germ AND endosperm were sifted out? I’m trying to make sense of this. What am I missing. This is all fascinating BTW. You create the most informative, thought provoking content.
Thank you. It’s a bit perplexing, but you need to think about how finely the flour is ground. A coarse grind with 20% extraction will still leave behind a lot of bran and germ. A finer grind with 20% extracting will take out mostly bran and germ. I believe this is why the two stone-ground flours have very high ash content even at 80% extraction. Because there are big chunks of bran and germ still remaining in the flour.
I also had a hard time getting my head around this but once I visualized the size of the milled granules it makes sense. Large chunks (bran and germ) won’t sift through a fine screen so your actually sifting out the good stuff (endosperm) in a coarse milled flour.
I’ll demonstrate this in the next video in this series. I’ll do 6 more flours in a few months.
@@thesourdoughjourney thank you. Your answer fits with what I was thinking. Bottom line is that it’s not enough to know the extraction rate as the grind matters too and so knowing the ash content is important. I look forward to your next flout video.
I have just started watching but you have me a little confused. You are saying the protein content is determined by how well sifted the flour is, my understanding is that the protein content is determined by the type of wheat being ground and of course actions taken by the farmer, I know that nitrogen applied at the right time in the wheat growing process can have a significant effect on increasing the protein contend amongst other things. Basically hard wheat, red or white has a high protein content and is best for bread. Soft wheat, red or white has a low protein content and is used to make cake and pastry flour. All purpose flower has a medium protein content and it is achieved by blending hard wheat flour with soft wheat flour. I shall continue watching!
It’s a combination of both. The “baseline” protein continent is determined by the wheat, but when some of the germ is sifted out of refined flours, it reduces the protein content.
I've converged on (77% hydration)
I’ve done a little experimentation with this and it’s hard to create a formula because different types of flour have different gluten forming properties, which are independent of the protein content. The protein content is roughly correlated with gluten, but not exactly. Especially when you get into whole grain flours or “ancient” grains.
Yep. thx & my results improved with lowered hydration as suggested, too.@@thesourdoughjourney
Watching this again today I wonder why should we care about flour selection if hydration can compensate for the differences? In one sense, experimentally controlled equal hydration is an unnecessary constraint you don't have to apply when you're just trying to make the best loaf.. Maybe the high protein ones can survive more acidic starter? I made a great loaf with high protein flour sour old starter and fermenting it to the edge of danger (75° 75%). I need to do that again with a control.
How did they taste?
I do a taste test of the 6 loaves near the end. Go to the chapter “Taste Test” starting at 1:12:50
What's the name of the song playing at the start?
It’s a royalty free song included in my editing program. The title is “Paris Zing.”
Thanks? Great video, really informative and interesting. Thoroughly enjoy watching your channel.
Had no idea flour was so complex and varied. I'm a bit overwhelmed.
It is a learning curve to try new flours.
I studied and studied your sourdough for busy people method… took temperatures, measured as accurately as I could, and still came out with sticky dough - so sticky it wouldn’t lift up off the silicone mat… it was a disaster, and since I followed all of your instructions to the LETTER, I can only conclude that it was my choice of flour. I had no idea how to find out protein content until I’ve watched this video (guess I will be sending some emails in the morning to inquire!). If I continue to use the flower that I have, I think I will need to reduce the hydration… Maybe try 70% next time? I am in Canada and a 5 pound bag of King Arthur bread flour is $40 so that’s not an option here lol instead I bought locally grown bread, flour and whole wheat flour… But obviously they do not soak in the water as much as KA! Disappointed in my first attempt, but it’s all part of the learning process! I documented everything on the worksheet and in my little notebook. Onward and upward!
Absolutely start at 70% hydration and then work your way up. I am using a “thirsty” flour here. I also use cold water, and make sure your starter is at peak. A past peak starter will make very sticky dough.
I will do that next time for sure. I’ve done nothing but stay at home watching my starter for the last three days (worse than having an infant!) as I attempt to strengthen it. When I used it yesterday, it appeared to be at peak (it had doubled but not tripled and the top had just started to flatten) but maybe I didn’t read it right and the starter is the problem. 🤷♀️
i have a question please
so the european T65 ( ash number) can be considered as bread flour? or not nessearly to have high protein ?
where i live the have T65 but on the bag the protein content is not mentioned, can i safely assume that it have high protein ??
thanks
There is no standard definition of “bread flour” but my definition is high protein (above 12%), refined (low ash content) and good gluten forming capabilities. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to draw a correlation between the “T65” and the protein content and gluten-forming capabilities. The protein content is usually listed separately. The gluten forming capability depends on the type of wheat. And, to add to the confusion, in some countries the T number is the extraction rate, not the ash number.
@@thesourdoughjourney
Thanks for the explanation
Yes true
One place said that their T65 is 13% protein
And the other place said it was 10.5
It is a science and you did a great jon explaining thanks
these are awesome loaves though
Thank you.