This is a great video. I write as someone who has home baked bread for 40years and naturally leavened bread for twenty years. IMO the thing so many pH meter video people miss... We have a nose and a tongue. Smelling my natural leaven tells me a lot about what is going on. Tasting it instantly tells me if it is over acidic. And tasting a dough during bulk ferment does the same. Folk forget that baking is a craft, not a laboratory procedure. Though an understanding of the principles is important. Thank you.
On the contrary, I love baking (cooking in general) because it's all a series of chemical reactions. The only difference between a recipe (formula) and a lab procedure is where your oven is located.
@@mayshack Greetings, I hope all is going well for you and yours. Yes, the enjoyment of baking and eating a loaf is the main thing. :) It's good to try and control the environment to get more repeatable quality too. But, the home has too many environmental variables which are poorly controlled compared to a lab. I've used a pH meter 'just to see'. But, really after some practice it is easy to predict what it will do, if I refrigerate it, ferment it in the proofer at 28C instead of 24, or feed it Rye flour which is like rocket fuel. The pH meter was fun though. Though with bufering taste seemed more reliable.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Ehh, for me the end result is not as important as the process. I have made croissants 9 weekends in a row trying to perfect my technique. I have given away a LOT of croissants. Personally, I think it's odd to quibble over. Do you weigh your ingredients, or do you just go completely on instinct-- it's the same deal. "But, the home has too many environmental variables which are poorly controlled compared to a lab. " Hence, where the oven is.
@@mayshack Hi Ah, we differ, I bake for the mouth. But, each to their own. Yes, I weigh my ingredients, control the natural leaven and the dough fermentation in a proofer and time and record every bake. I have baked bread for forty years. I have tried every technique I have come across under conditions as controlled as I am able to get. I also publish articles for advanced home bakers going into the advantages of the different methods for different doughs along with a lot of biochemistry rendered into plain English. I have done a lot of tutoring too. Does this mean I know a lot? Yes. Dos it mean I never get it wrong? No. Does it mean my breads are better than others? No, I have met people who know virtually nothing and knock out one recipe and its perfect. We are all of us forever learning and we all have our personal baking path we want to follow. I wish you the best of baking in the way you have chosen. Be well.
Instantly did an experiment with my Autolyse doug which took longer today than usual because I made a dryer dough than normal. Since I had no vitamin c I took citric acid and nearly instantly the gluten relaxed... But maybe too far it nearly seemed as id the gluten broke down a bit, seems my acid concentration was a bit high. But i only. Smeared it in while folding so it will dissolve later on. Will let it sit an then it should be ok again. One more learned.
Citric acid has the opposite effect of Ascorbic acid / Vit C. Ascorbic acid is a reducer, but chemicals in the dough turn it into an oxidiser. Citric acid remains an acid and will cause the gluten to relax, be more extensible.
I picked up a decent Ph meter, calibrated it and started testing. My Sourdough which is Rye / white flour usually peaks at around four hours 2:1:1. and it tests out at 3.4 after it has fallen for about an hour or so. My bread is pretty good after many tweaks over the past couple of years. It seems to bulk at around 4 to 4.5 hours 78 F. The final proof is only about 1/2 hour, then I bake it. What I discovered after buying the Ph meter is that the dough after final proof only has a Ph of 4.7 If I let it go any longer it will probably over proof. The taste of my bread is probably leaning heavily towards a more sweet signature rather than sour. It's very malty which I don't mind. I also discovered that the Ph of my water was 8.4. I did some more reading and I can bring that down a lot with a couple of drops of lemon juice which I tested and it works. I'm puzzled at how I can get my dough Ph below 4.2. Wondering if the high Ph in the water is the culprit. I am going to bake today so it will be interesting to see what happens with the water. Cheers!
Hmmmmm. Well, the first thing I would say is you have a high alkaline water. Your citric acid hack is ok for your dough side but I would use store bought mineral water in my starter when feeding it. Your pH meter is reading the strength of the acid in your starter but may not be accurately reflecting the quantity of acid that builds up. Q. Does your starter taste tangy sour.? 2. Your 2:1:1 ratio ....is that 2 old starter- 1 flour-1 water? At this point I will assume it is. I am not sure the blend % of rye to white flour (and if you use the same for your starter)...but let's say it's a 50-50 blend. The issue could be as simple as: 1. Your starter is not developed enough. The yeast is thriving, but the bacterial activity is slow or immature. Yes it's producing acid but in less amounts than you may desire for your flavor requirements. 2. Temperature plays a key roll in the types and quantities of acid produced. If I remember my schooling correct, cooler bulk proof more lactic acid (sweeter more milky types of flavors. Little warmer more aecetic acid flavors are imparted. Read up on this as there is a "goldilocks" zone of recommended Temps for sourdough bulk fermentation. 3. 2:1:1 check your ratios as pending the amount of white /rye flour blend you are using on both sides your ratios may need to be adjusted. It seems that you may have loads yeast activity being generated but sour development may be lagging. 4 If you can get your final dough to a pH of around 4.1 - 4.3 that's a good range for a tangy sourdough. Just a few thoughts. Cheers JP
@nobsbaking6391 Thank you for taking the time to reply with that detailed response. It's greatly appreciated. My starter is more sweet and caramelish than it is anything else. I just assumed that was the rye. The mixture of rye to white flour is 50 / 50. I feed in the following way every day...In a clean small jar I put 5 grams old starter from previous day. I then add 10 grams of water, then 10 grams of the flour blend (50% rye, 50% white). That yields enough to make a levain for baking when I need to. The levain is identical proportions just more of everything (20 grams old starter, 40 grams water, 40 grams flour blend). That will peak in about four hours @ 78 degrees in the house. When I bake I use 350grams of white flour and 150 grams of whole wheat flour (not rye). I use 365 grams of water and 70 grams of starter just at it's peak. I do four stretch and folds (the first two 30 minutes apart, the next two at 25 minutes apart). The bulk fermentation reaches it's threshold after about four hours. Then I round out the dough and let it sit covered on the counter for about 20 minutes. Afetr that I shape it and put it into a baneton with a loose cover over it. When I do the finger test it's usually no more than 30 minutes max before it risks not bouncing back after poking. Then I bake it. The spring is usually really good, and the ear pops nicely. The bread crumb is leaning towards a more closed result and moist (but not gummy or tight). It tastes fantastic, but I notice that others out there have bulk ferment times of 6 to 8 hours, then they leave it to final proof for an hour (sometimes longer), etc. I keep thinking that there is something that I'm not understanding even though I'm happy with the end result . The other concern is the Ph reading of the dough. I have read that in order for the pathogens to be killed it needs to be below 4.2. I believe you included that in your video also. One other thing is that many people are doing a plain white starter as opposed to my rye / white blend. I started to make a white starter but didn't have any success the last time I attempted, but what I do remember during that process is that the smell of that starter was extremely different and not what I would call "sweet". If having a dough Ph of 4.7 isn't unsafe then I'm totally OK with it. Thanks again for your time.
Love it nice summary . One interesting thing I'd like to point out is that you seem to claim that higher temperatures bring a more acidic taste but according to what I read higher temps flavor homofermentative bacteria and produce lactic acid, so acidic in ph but mild dairy in flavor not tangy...
I will have to check my video again but I do not believe I ever stated "a more acidic taste" not even sure what that means. Temperatures are about the types of acid and flavor notes as a direct result.
Hello! I've just discovered your channel an been binge watching your videos. Very good job and format. No frills or BS talking. Keep it up! Oh I'd love to receive a copy of the technical recap for the videos. Thank you!
Hi Edmond Not one person asked for the recap until today . I stopped doing them as they take a lot of time and did not seem of any interest to folks. If you want tech support. You got me. If you are looking for specific info. I have it or can find it. If I get any more people asking I may start it again but for now it was hours of work for seemingly nothing.
11:32 I couldn't help but to notice that this is very wrong. If you add 10ml pH 4.0 fluid to 100ml of distilled water your pH reading from the solution should be 5.04. pH is basically the level of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions which for distilled water are equal amount hence neutral 7. When you add more water to a acidic solution (with more free hydrogen ions) you essentially touch the ratio of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions therefore changing the pH.
Ok thank you. maybe the pH is 5 once you do all the factors. This point is about trying to explain strength of acid vs quantity. For explanation purposes I can live with a 1 pt varient. Thanks though, asI do appreciate the pure science. Cheers Jp
I am wondering what measuring the ph of the dough at the end of bulk fermentation can tell you with regard to the degree of fermentation and resulting taste of sourdough bread.
It can tell you if you have hit your pH sweet spot of around 4.2 -3.9 where your sourdough ultimately should be somewhere around. Unfortunately pH does not tell you how sour or types of sour notes you may have. This part of the "dialing In " is more temperature related.
So is it natural that sourdough always has bigger ear than commercial yeast breads with same steps? Because commercial yeast produces very little acid.
Yeast does not produce acid...bacteria does. Acid development is a bi product of time for the bacteria in your starter to do its trip throughout the entire dough...this is mostly time and temperature related. As acid develops ( conditions) the dough, or more accurately the protein in the flour, better gas retention capabilities and ultimately volume for high hydration doughs which more often than not do not use mechanical mixing for dough development. Further, commercial yeast breads still need conditioning which is often in the form of mixing in conjunction with rest periods or through the use of added dough conditioners however in sourdough commercial yeast has a tendency to move the product much faster providing less time for the bacteria to attain that magic pH of about 4.3 or less.
@JackTheAwesomeKnot yes that's true but this a baking channel and we are dealing with bakers yeast which is not to my knowledge a big contributor of acid in doughs.
The right pH is in and about 6.5 when you first mix your flour, water ( and other ingredients in your recipe) together however this is a general guideline and you may be a little higher or a little lower than this depending your water & flour. I will assume you have alkaline water and maybe have a higher pH after mixing. If it is NOT TO HIGH you probably are OK. I would be happy to assist you. Simply tell me what your water pH is (approximately), and what type of flour you are using (bleached or unbleached) and if you know it....what is the pH after you mixed your recipe into a dough is. Then I can tell you what steps if any you need to make. Please forward your information to nobsbaking123@gmail.com and i will help you sort out your problem. Kind regards JP
Awesome video. So much info with very lucid explanation. Thanks !
Really interesting info, thanks! 👍
This is a great video. I write as someone who has home baked bread for 40years and naturally leavened bread for twenty years.
IMO the thing so many pH meter video people miss... We have a nose and a tongue. Smelling my natural leaven tells me a lot about what is going on. Tasting it instantly tells me if it is over acidic. And tasting a dough during bulk ferment does the same.
Folk forget that baking is a craft, not a laboratory procedure. Though an understanding of the principles is important.
Thank you.
Could not have said it better. Cheers
On the contrary, I love baking (cooking in general) because it's all a series of chemical reactions. The only difference between a recipe (formula) and a lab procedure is where your oven is located.
@@mayshack Greetings, I hope all is going well for you and yours.
Yes, the enjoyment of baking and eating a loaf is the main thing. :)
It's good to try and control the environment to get more repeatable quality too.
But, the home has too many environmental variables which are poorly controlled compared to a lab.
I've used a pH meter 'just to see'. But, really after some practice it is easy to predict what it will do, if I refrigerate it, ferment it in the proofer at 28C instead of 24, or feed it Rye flour which is like rocket fuel.
The pH meter was fun though. Though with bufering taste seemed more reliable.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Ehh, for me the end result is not as important as the process. I have made croissants 9 weekends in a row trying to perfect my technique. I have given away a LOT of croissants. Personally, I think it's odd to quibble over. Do you weigh your ingredients, or do you just go completely on instinct-- it's the same deal. "But, the home has too many environmental variables which are poorly controlled compared to a lab. " Hence, where the oven is.
@@mayshack Hi
Ah, we differ, I bake for the mouth. But, each to their own.
Yes, I weigh my ingredients, control the natural leaven and the dough fermentation in a proofer and time and record every bake.
I have baked bread for forty years. I have tried every technique I have come across under conditions as controlled as I am able to get.
I also publish articles for advanced home bakers going into the advantages of the different methods for different doughs along with a lot of biochemistry rendered into plain English. I have done a lot of tutoring too.
Does this mean I know a lot? Yes.
Dos it mean I never get it wrong? No.
Does it mean my breads are better than others? No, I have met people who know virtually nothing and knock out one recipe and its perfect.
We are all of us forever learning and we all have our personal baking path we want to follow.
I wish you the best of baking in the way you have chosen.
Be well.
Very informative and clearly presented. Now I better understand ph and sourdough baking.
Wow, what an incredible video! Learned so much about dough and ph! I spent the money on a fancy ph meter already, but glad to hear strips work too!
Instantly did an experiment with my Autolyse doug which took longer today than usual because I made a dryer dough than normal.
Since I had no vitamin c I took citric acid and nearly instantly the gluten relaxed...
But maybe too far it nearly seemed as id the gluten broke down a bit, seems my acid concentration was a bit high.
But i only. Smeared it in while folding so it will dissolve later on.
Will let it sit an then it should be ok again.
One more learned.
Citric acid has the opposite effect of Ascorbic acid / Vit C. Ascorbic acid is a reducer, but chemicals in the dough turn it into an oxidiser.
Citric acid remains an acid and will cause the gluten to relax, be more extensible.
I picked up a decent Ph meter, calibrated it and started testing. My Sourdough which is Rye / white flour usually peaks at around four hours 2:1:1. and it tests out at 3.4 after it has fallen for about an hour or so.
My bread is pretty good after many tweaks over the past couple of years. It seems to bulk at around 4 to 4.5 hours 78 F. The final proof is only about 1/2 hour, then I bake it.
What I discovered after buying the Ph meter is that the dough after final proof only has a Ph of 4.7 If I let it go any longer it will probably over proof. The taste of my bread is probably leaning heavily towards a more sweet signature rather than sour. It's very malty which I don't mind. I also discovered that the Ph of my water was 8.4. I did some more reading and I can bring that down a lot with a couple of drops of lemon juice which I tested and it works.
I'm puzzled at how I can get my dough Ph below 4.2. Wondering if the high Ph in the water is the culprit. I am going to bake today so it will be interesting to see what happens with the water.
Cheers!
Hmmmmm. Well, the first thing I would say is you have a high alkaline water. Your citric acid hack is ok for your dough side but I would use store bought mineral water in my starter when feeding it.
Your pH meter is reading the strength of the acid in your starter but may not be accurately reflecting the quantity of acid that builds up.
Q. Does your starter taste tangy sour.?
2. Your 2:1:1 ratio ....is that 2 old starter- 1 flour-1 water? At this point I will assume it is.
I am not sure the blend % of rye to white flour (and if you use the same for your starter)...but let's say it's a 50-50 blend.
The issue could be as simple as:
1. Your starter is not developed enough. The yeast is thriving, but the bacterial activity is slow or immature. Yes it's producing acid but in less amounts than you may desire for your flavor requirements.
2. Temperature plays a key roll in the types and quantities of acid produced. If I remember my schooling correct, cooler bulk proof more lactic acid (sweeter more milky types of flavors. Little warmer more aecetic acid flavors are imparted. Read up on this as there is a "goldilocks" zone of recommended Temps for sourdough bulk fermentation.
3. 2:1:1 check your ratios as pending the amount of white /rye flour blend you are using on both sides your ratios may need to be adjusted. It seems that you may have loads yeast activity being generated but sour development may be lagging.
4
If you can get your final dough to a pH of around 4.1 - 4.3 that's a good range for a tangy sourdough.
Just a few thoughts.
Cheers
JP
@nobsbaking6391
Thank you for taking the time to reply with that detailed response. It's greatly appreciated.
My starter is more sweet and caramelish than it is anything else. I just assumed that was the rye. The mixture of rye to white flour is 50 / 50.
I feed in the following way every day...In a clean small jar I put 5 grams old starter from previous day. I then add 10 grams of water, then 10 grams of the flour blend (50% rye, 50% white). That yields enough to make a levain for baking when I need to. The levain is identical proportions just more of everything (20 grams old starter, 40 grams water, 40 grams flour blend). That will peak in about four hours @ 78 degrees in the house.
When I bake I use 350grams of white flour and 150 grams of whole wheat flour (not rye). I use 365 grams of water and 70 grams of starter just at it's peak.
I do four stretch and folds (the first two 30 minutes apart, the next two at 25 minutes apart). The bulk fermentation reaches it's threshold after about four hours. Then I round out the dough and let it sit covered on the counter for about 20 minutes. Afetr that I shape it and put it into a baneton with a loose cover over it. When I do the finger test it's usually no more than 30 minutes max before it risks not bouncing back after poking. Then I bake it. The spring is usually really good, and the ear pops nicely. The bread crumb is leaning towards a more closed result and moist (but not gummy or tight). It tastes fantastic, but I notice that others out there have bulk ferment times of 6 to 8 hours, then they leave it to final proof for an hour (sometimes longer), etc. I keep thinking that there is something that I'm not understanding even though I'm happy with the end result . The other concern is the Ph reading of the dough. I have read that in order for the pathogens to be killed it needs to be below 4.2. I believe you included that in your video also.
One other thing is that many people are doing a plain white starter as opposed to my rye / white blend. I started to make a white starter but didn't have any success the last time I attempted, but what I do remember during that process is that the smell of that starter was extremely different and not what I would call "sweet". If having a dough Ph of 4.7 isn't unsafe then I'm totally OK with it.
Thanks again for your time.
Love it nice summary . One interesting thing I'd like to point out is that you seem to claim that higher temperatures bring a more acidic taste but according to what I read higher temps flavor homofermentative bacteria and produce lactic acid, so acidic in ph but mild dairy in flavor not tangy...
I will have to check my video again but I do not believe I ever stated "a more acidic taste" not even sure what that means.
Temperatures are about the types of acid and flavor notes as a direct result.
@@nobsbaking6391 sure might be me just thinking I hear something that is not there.
Thank you for your thorough video! Has anyone mentioned you have a Jack Nicholson voice similarity?
Hahahaha Thank you.....I think?
@@nobsbaking6391 jajaja it's a good thing!
Lovely video sir pls tell us how can we lower the ph level and what all can be added to get the right ph. Thanking you
please explain to me what type of bread you are making. contact me at nobsbaking123@gmail.com
Hello! I've just discovered your channel an been binge watching your videos. Very good job and format. No frills or BS talking. Keep it up! Oh I'd love to receive a copy of the technical recap for the videos. Thank you!
Hi Edmond
Not one person asked for the recap until today . I stopped doing them as they take a lot of time and did not seem of any interest to folks. If you want tech support. You got me. If you are looking for specific info. I have it or can find it. If I get any more people asking I may start it again but for now it was hours of work for seemingly nothing.
@@nobsbaking6391 Oh, got it! No problem. Thanks again!
11:32 I couldn't help but to notice that this is very wrong. If you add 10ml pH 4.0 fluid to 100ml of distilled water your pH reading from the solution should be 5.04. pH is basically the level of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions which for distilled water are equal amount hence neutral 7. When you add more water to a acidic solution (with more free hydrogen ions) you essentially touch the ratio of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions therefore changing the pH.
Ok thank you. maybe the pH is 5 once you do all the factors. This point is about trying to explain strength of acid vs quantity. For explanation purposes I can live with a 1 pt varient. Thanks though, asI do appreciate the pure science.
Cheers
Jp
I am wondering what measuring the ph of the dough at the end of bulk fermentation can tell you with regard to the degree of fermentation and resulting taste of sourdough bread.
It can tell you if you have hit your pH sweet spot of around 4.2 -3.9 where your sourdough ultimately should be somewhere around. Unfortunately pH does not tell you how sour or types of sour notes you may have. This part of the "dialing In " is more temperature related.
So is it natural that sourdough always has bigger ear than commercial yeast breads with same steps? Because commercial yeast produces very little acid.
Yeast does not produce acid...bacteria does. Acid development is a bi product of time for the bacteria in your starter to do its trip throughout the entire dough...this is mostly time and temperature related.
As acid develops ( conditions) the dough, or more accurately the protein in the flour, better gas retention capabilities and ultimately volume for high hydration doughs which more often than not do not use mechanical mixing for dough development.
Further, commercial yeast breads still need conditioning which is often in the form of mixing in conjunction with rest periods or through the use of added dough conditioners however in sourdough commercial yeast has a tendency to move the product much faster providing less time for the bacteria to attain that magic pH of about 4.3 or less.
@@nobsbaking6391Yeast can produce acid. It depends on the type of yeast.
@JackTheAwesomeKnot yes that's true but this a baking channel and we are dealing with bakers yeast which is not to my knowledge a big contributor of acid in doughs.
For white bread not sour bread
The right pH is in and about 6.5 when you first mix your flour, water ( and other ingredients in your recipe) together however this is a general guideline and you may be a little higher or a little lower than this depending your water & flour. I will assume you have alkaline water and maybe have a higher pH after mixing. If it is NOT TO HIGH you probably are OK.
I would be happy to assist you. Simply tell me what your water pH is (approximately), and what type of flour you are using (bleached or unbleached) and if you know it....what is the pH after you mixed your recipe into a dough is.
Then I can tell you what steps if any you need to make. Please forward your information to nobsbaking123@gmail.com and i will help you sort out your problem.
Kind regards JP
@@nobsbaking6391 I’ll let you know everything in detail as I’ll conduct trials and mail u it to you, thanks a ton for ur video and ur reply 🙏