I run a Thermwood router with a 4' x 8' table, we machine mostly UHMW, we machine nylon and delrin on a regular basis as well. To help with the vacuum we use packaging tape on the edges of the material so we can aggressive with the cutting close to the edges. Our vacuum setup is very strong though with 3 10 HP vacuum pumps, the hold down force is around 1400-1500 lbs sq ft.
Good video, Alex! Thanks! I also have a 24R. It seems like an excellent machine, but I agree that the tool changes are really burdensome and slow compared to what we're used to with TTS and ATC on the Tormach mills. I look forward to an TTS and/or ATC option for the 24R.
Did you check the bed flatness on your 24R? I just received mine, and based upon the tools I have for measuring, the bed is 1.5 to 2 mm low in the center. Do you see a similar sag on your unit?
I recently also had bad chatter with slotting on a 24kRPM spindle, despite only 0.5mm step-down on a 4mm cutter - even vibrated/pulled the cutter down in the ER collet. This was on an Optimum MB4, very solid cast-iron dovetail machine. I reduced the RPM to 15kRPM and it went completely quiet for the rest of the run and machined perfectly. Maybe it's just some resonance of the cutter or spindle at those RPM, rather than the machine? Worth a try with lower RPM for slotting.
Try to degrease everything and tighten the nut to the proper torque. If used appropriately ER collets have more gripping force then most hobby class machines can deliver. Good thought on changing rpm though. A variable helix or variable flute spacing is another good way to avoid chatter on light machines under certain conditions.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 The nut was quite tight, I checked after I noticed the z offset. I agree, normally a 4mm tool won't pull out of an ER11 collet. In this case, it just shows how bad chatter is, and how powerful vibrations at high frequencies can be. If you hear the screeech like in this video, change something to make it stop, or stop the machine. I think the both-sided contact during slotting can be a big problem, and you have to watch out for resonances of the tool bouncing between the two walls. Once I dropped the RPM, the chatter stopped, the tool held solidly for the whole run.
@@codemakeshare That's tiny! ER11 may indeed be way more problematic. I've never used such tiny collets and that might be quite different. I had MB4 in mind and thought of something most people usually use with it, like ER25 or ER32. If you use those proper and if they're proper quality there's hardly a way you can make them slip or pull out with the power and capabilities a MB4 has. Anyway, having a well ground taper, good quality collets, a good quality nut and tightening to the torque specified by Rego-Fix goes a long way and can make a real difference. Just as properly cleaning and degreasing every surface of the whole system. I often see all those things completely neglected by hobbyists and professionals alike. I've had to let high angle endmills scream for extended periods due to huge overhang and never had a problem, except at the beginning with poor quality collets and one time using a really greasy collet & tool holder. Another way to avoid such things might be to use small tools with larger shank size. You can get lots of small tools with 6 or 6.35mm shank. If that problem occurs more often that might be a thing to look into. I'm using small tools with 6mm shank almost exclusively and generally avoid mills without variable angle or spacing. Has helped a great deal and I can really recommend that to everyone and even more so with light/hobby machines. Oh, and if you have to babysit some work anyway you can constantly change rpm up and down a bit via spindle speed override. That way certain kind of vibrations can't really happen because there's no steady frequency to excite them. It's kind of annoying to constantly twist a knob for extended periods but might be a solution as well.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 ah yes, the part I didn't mention is that this wasn't the stock spindle. It came with an MK4 collet and I'm indeed using that with ER32 holders. But the stock spindle and gearbox only go to 3200 RPM. For work with small mills in alu and plastic I adapted a 1kW 24kRPM spindle (60mm) to slide in instead of the stock spindle - takes a few minutes to swap. It's a pretty cheap chinese router spindle, but normally does an adequate job, except slotting. Unfortunately I could not find any better 60mm diameter spindle motors that would fit, so I'm limited to ER11. The only point I wanted to make was that the chatter in their video might not be due to machine rigidity, but due to too high RPM and vibrations in the tool and spindle. At least I'm pretty confident in my instance that the MB4 was plenty rigid enough for a 4mm slot, and the problem is the spindle or tool, and high RPM.
@@codemakeshare Oh, wait. That's really interesting. Did I get it right that you just take out the original spindle/quill and shove a small chinesium spindle up there into the original headstock? That's kind of genius! I've seen HF spindles mounted to the side, would have never thought of that! How do you fix/mount it in there, just with the quill clamp?
To save your knuckles don't use the wrenches like you show in your video. Instead, position the wrenches so that you have to squeeze them together on tighten or loosen your collet. By this is mean instead of pushing on the wrench on your right, move that wrench to your left and then you will squeeze the wrenches together. No more knuckle bashing.
I second this - always tighten and loosen the spindle collet (routers, ER spindles,...) with both wrenches in one hand. Better control of the tightening force and no more busted knuckles...
Good review. I use short custom er wenches to avoid over tight collets. The machine is very accurate over a large area. It shines when fabricating plastics and making large gelcoat molds for fiberglass or cf parts. Simple to setup and it often runs for hours and hours milling out some fine detailed work of art. Spindle overhangs apron at end this allows cutter profile access to material ends for custom wood joinery or other work on long material ends. I also have few hundred pounds of weight added in base to hold it down when wizzing around cutting at 160 ipm
heya, mind sharing the ER wrenches? I run an axiom machine and it uses ER20, I mistakenly over tightened the collect a few times but I manage to get a hang of it, I'm always on the market for new tools :D
@@Pertruabo Hi Gerald. I posted the wrench models to grabcad a few years ago. search under l.burkhart. they are easy to make. the ones i designed are thick so it will stay on spindle flats during tool change and not fall off. that way you dont have to fumble around with 2 wrenches as much
This is more like a question. Have you tried tapping a blind hole with a tap size of M1.6x.35. Material 6061 Alum. Using a CNC machine. If you did ,what was the end result? Thank you
A portal is the least stiff at the point of testing. At the center of the bridge is the weakest point. It's most stiff at the outer ends of the portal. You can use that if you need maximum stiffness.
i would like to hear more about this router. and also the datron stuff too. for example (as far as i can understand yet, and not knowing any better completely new to all this) the datron m8 cube apparently one of the most affordable? european machines that can do 60k rpm, for HSC (high speed cutting without a liquid coolant). so it really seems worthwhile to weigh the pros and cons of these different small-ish but professional catergory machines and their different approaches in this general space. actually am finding it all pretty darned confusing. just even if only to get a simple and dumbed down overview. to picture the general landscape / lay of the land. please help if you can, many thanks
Hi. Very nice video. Sorry for my english but why Alex you didn't put at list 12000 rpm for cutting. Is because spindle loosing power on low rpm?? Yes you win time with 24k.
Good video. I have an AVID cnc with ATC and servos. Disappointing to see Tormach with steppers, no ATC and small footprint (2x4) VS my AVID (3x3.) The price even with my ATC and clearpath servos puts the AVID at 15k less. I see Tormach have the ATC machine at 27k and my machine was 11,500 (again with servos and ATC CNC depot.)
I'm kind of surprised they didn't go with a larger work envelope - "half sheet" CNC routers are becoming more and more popular in the high end hobbiest/light commercial market.
Another upgrade I'd suggest is swap out that CW-3000 "chiller" for a CW-5000. The 3000 is simply a radiator with a fan moving air across it, while the 5000 is an actual refrigerated chiller.
It's a cheap spindle, an appropriate radiator is absolutely sufficient. What use is a more complex chiller if a radiator is absolutely enough to keep it in its optimal operating range? Seems like a downgrade to me.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 It might be a cheap spindle, but it's not a cheap machine. Also, not everybody has the luxury of running their machine in a climate controlled shop. If you're running it in a hot garage, then you'll never get the spindle below ambient temperature -- maybe that's 90*F (32*C). Too hot for even a cheap spindle. Stop being so cheap.
@@swp466 And yet Mechatron, one of the better, German 24K spindle manufacturers recommend 40C as the upper limit with a shut off at 50C. So, perhaps stop calling people names when even the manufacturers don't always agree. (Yes, late comment...)
@@AntiVaganza Maybe 40* spindle temp, but that will be warmer than ambient -- the temps I was talking about were ambient temps. The spindle will be much warmer than that. Even Mechatron offers refrigerated chillers (NOT passive) that require a room temperature below 30*C. Hmmm, why don't they sell or recommend a passive cooler? And yes -- very stale reply.
Larger tooling, more Z height, and you'll definitely be able to remove more material in certain situations. The test here was in the 24R's favor due to the soft material and small(ish) tool diameter, but with bigger tools and materials where SFM matters the 770 will do better than the 24R. Also drilling from 1/4" to 1/2" probably isn't great on the 24R, although I didn't try it out.
So, was that the max machine feed on the 770? That looked awfully slow for a CNC milling machine. If the 770 is just another yet stiffer router, I would say it’s ridiculously slow. It’s supposed to have a max 135 IPM feed rate.
a way to avoid the knuckle smashing is to use your legs to produce the forward or backward motion rather than your arms since your legs have far more strength than your arms so they can decelerate your hands much faster than your arms can.
I file a complaint against a company like an American scammer. Tormach This company does not send the ordered goods. Of course, the approval was made in October 2021. I file a complaint against fraud against customers of these companies.
Yeah, and ending on saying it will work fine as a replacement... If this is a replacement for the Datron, I would think they were not using the Datron to the fullest of its capabilities?
Alex, great presentation. I really love that you did the comparison with the 770. Very interesting results. Well done.
-Ken
Definitely like Alex, great at presenting the info in an interesting way. Also smokin hot
I run a Thermwood router with a 4' x 8' table, we machine mostly UHMW, we machine nylon and delrin on a regular basis as well. To help with the vacuum we use packaging tape on the edges of the material so we can aggressive with the cutting close to the edges. Our vacuum setup is very strong though with 3 10 HP vacuum pumps, the hold down force is around 1400-1500 lbs sq ft.
Good video, Alex! Thanks! I also have a 24R. It seems like an excellent machine, but I agree that the tool changes are really burdensome and slow compared to what we're used to with TTS and ATC on the Tormach mills. I look forward to an TTS and/or ATC option for the 24R.
Did you check the bed flatness on your 24R? I just received mine, and based upon the tools I have for measuring, the bed is 1.5 to 2 mm low in the center. Do you see a similar sag on your unit?
I recently also had bad chatter with slotting on a 24kRPM spindle, despite only 0.5mm step-down on a 4mm cutter - even vibrated/pulled the cutter down in the ER collet. This was on an Optimum MB4, very solid cast-iron dovetail machine. I reduced the RPM to 15kRPM and it went completely quiet for the rest of the run and machined perfectly. Maybe it's just some resonance of the cutter or spindle at those RPM, rather than the machine? Worth a try with lower RPM for slotting.
Try to degrease everything and tighten the nut to the proper torque. If used appropriately ER collets have more gripping force then most hobby class machines can deliver.
Good thought on changing rpm though. A variable helix or variable flute spacing is another good way to avoid chatter on light machines under certain conditions.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 The nut was quite tight, I checked after I noticed the z offset. I agree, normally a 4mm tool won't pull out of an ER11 collet. In this case, it just shows how bad chatter is, and how powerful vibrations at high frequencies can be. If you hear the screeech like in this video, change something to make it stop, or stop the machine.
I think the both-sided contact during slotting can be a big problem, and you have to watch out for resonances of the tool bouncing between the two walls. Once I dropped the RPM, the chatter stopped, the tool held solidly for the whole run.
@@codemakeshare
That's tiny!
ER11 may indeed be way more problematic. I've never used such tiny collets and that might be quite different.
I had MB4 in mind and thought of something most people usually use with it, like ER25 or ER32.
If you use those proper and if they're proper quality there's hardly a way you can make them slip or pull out with the power and capabilities a MB4 has.
Anyway, having a well ground taper, good quality collets, a good quality nut and tightening to the torque specified by Rego-Fix goes a long way and can make a real difference.
Just as properly cleaning and degreasing every surface of the whole system. I often see all those things completely neglected by hobbyists and professionals alike.
I've had to let high angle endmills scream for extended periods due to huge overhang and never had a problem, except at the beginning with poor quality collets and one time using a really greasy collet & tool holder.
Another way to avoid such things might be to use small tools with larger shank size. You can get lots of small tools with 6 or 6.35mm shank. If that problem occurs more often that might be a thing to look into. I'm using small tools with 6mm shank almost exclusively and generally avoid mills without variable angle or spacing.
Has helped a great deal and I can really recommend that to everyone and even more so with light/hobby machines.
Oh, and if you have to babysit some work anyway you can constantly change rpm up and down a bit via spindle speed override. That way certain kind of vibrations can't really happen because there's no steady frequency to excite them.
It's kind of annoying to constantly twist a knob for extended periods but might be a solution as well.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 ah yes, the part I didn't mention is that this wasn't the stock spindle. It came with an MK4 collet and I'm indeed using that with ER32 holders. But the stock spindle and gearbox only go to 3200 RPM. For work with small mills in alu and plastic I adapted a 1kW 24kRPM spindle (60mm) to slide in instead of the stock spindle - takes a few minutes to swap. It's a pretty cheap chinese router spindle, but normally does an adequate job, except slotting. Unfortunately I could not find any better 60mm diameter spindle motors that would fit, so I'm limited to ER11.
The only point I wanted to make was that the chatter in their video might not be due to machine rigidity, but due to too high RPM and vibrations in the tool and spindle. At least I'm pretty confident in my instance that the MB4 was plenty rigid enough for a 4mm slot, and the problem is the spindle or tool, and high RPM.
@@codemakeshare
Oh, wait. That's really interesting.
Did I get it right that you just take out the original spindle/quill and shove a small chinesium spindle up there into the original headstock?
That's kind of genius!
I've seen HF spindles mounted to the side, would have never thought of that!
How do you fix/mount it in there, just with the quill clamp?
Excellent review! Can't wait to grab an SMW fixture plate and an ATC.
Can you post a closeup photo of the markings on the spindle?
To save your knuckles don't use the wrenches like you show in your video. Instead, position the wrenches so that you have to squeeze them together on tighten or loosen your collet. By this is mean instead of pushing on the wrench on your right, move that wrench to your left and then you will squeeze the wrenches together. No more knuckle bashing.
I second this - always tighten and loosen the spindle collet (routers, ER spindles,...) with both wrenches in one hand. Better control of the tightening force and no more busted knuckles...
Good review. I use short custom er wenches to avoid over tight collets. The machine is very accurate over a large area. It shines when fabricating plastics and making large gelcoat molds for fiberglass or cf parts. Simple to setup and it often runs for hours and hours milling out some fine detailed work of art. Spindle overhangs apron at end this allows cutter profile access to material ends for custom wood joinery or other work on long material ends. I also have few hundred pounds of weight added in base to hold it down when wizzing around cutting at 160 ipm
heya, mind sharing the ER wrenches? I run an axiom machine and it uses ER20, I mistakenly over tightened the collect a few times but I manage to get a hang of it, I'm always on the market for new tools :D
@@Pertruabo Hi Gerald. I posted the wrench models to grabcad a few years ago. search under l.burkhart. they are easy to make. the ones i designed are thick so it will stay on spindle flats during tool change and not fall off. that way you dont have to fumble around with 2 wrenches as much
@@laneburkhart5590 cool thanks, I'll check it out!
This is more like a question.
Have you tried tapping a blind hole with a tap size of M1.6x.35. Material 6061 Alum. Using a CNC machine.
If you did ,what was the end result?
Thank you
Thanks, just never though CNC router can cut metal that fast. Very inspiring 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
The cooling on the 24R is custom?
A portal is the least stiff at the point of testing. At the center of the bridge is the weakest point. It's most stiff at the outer ends of the portal. You can use that if you need maximum stiffness.
i would like to hear more about this router. and also the datron stuff too. for example (as far as i can understand yet, and not knowing any better completely new to all this) the datron m8 cube apparently one of the most affordable? european machines that can do 60k rpm, for HSC (high speed cutting without a liquid coolant). so it really seems worthwhile to weigh the pros and cons of these different small-ish but professional catergory machines and their different approaches in this general space. actually am finding it all pretty darned confusing. just even if only to get a simple and dumbed down overview. to picture the general landscape / lay of the land. please help if you can, many thanks
Hi. Very nice video.
Sorry for my english but why Alex you didn't put at list 12000 rpm for cutting. Is because spindle loosing power on low rpm??
Yes you win time with 24k.
Is that wood being held by blue tape + super glue for the wood?
Good video.
I have an AVID cnc with ATC and servos. Disappointing to see Tormach with steppers, no ATC and small footprint (2x4) VS my AVID (3x3.) The price even with my ATC and clearpath servos puts the AVID at 15k less. I see Tormach have the ATC machine at 27k and my machine was 11,500 (again with servos and ATC CNC depot.)
Really surprised how out of round the 24r made that top circular feature.
I'm kind of surprised they didn't go with a larger work envelope - "half sheet" CNC routers are becoming more and more popular in the high end hobbiest/light commercial market.
Another upgrade I'd suggest is swap out that CW-3000 "chiller" for a CW-5000. The 3000 is simply a radiator with a fan moving air across it, while the 5000 is an actual refrigerated chiller.
It's a cheap spindle, an appropriate radiator is absolutely sufficient.
What use is a more complex chiller if a radiator is absolutely enough to keep it in its optimal operating range?
Seems like a downgrade to me.
@@heinzhaupthaar5590 It might be a cheap spindle, but it's not a cheap machine. Also, not everybody has the luxury of running their machine in a climate controlled shop. If you're running it in a hot garage, then you'll never get the spindle below ambient temperature -- maybe that's 90*F (32*C). Too hot for even a cheap spindle. Stop being so cheap.
@@swp466 And yet Mechatron, one of the better, German 24K spindle manufacturers recommend 40C as the upper limit with a shut off at 50C. So, perhaps stop calling people names when even the manufacturers don't always agree.
(Yes, late comment...)
@@AntiVaganza Maybe 40* spindle temp, but that will be warmer than ambient -- the temps I was talking about were ambient temps. The spindle will be much warmer than that. Even Mechatron offers refrigerated chillers (NOT passive) that require a room temperature below 30*C. Hmmm, why don't they sell or recommend a passive cooler? And yes -- very stale reply.
Any updates on this machine ?
what can the 770 do that this machine cant in terms of machining
Larger tooling, more Z height, and you'll definitely be able to remove more material in certain situations. The test here was in the 24R's favor due to the soft material and small(ish) tool diameter, but with bigger tools and materials where SFM matters the 770 will do better than the 24R. Also drilling from 1/4" to 1/2" probably isn't great on the 24R, although I didn't try it out.
So, was that the max machine feed on the 770? That looked awfully slow for a CNC milling machine. If the 770 is just another yet stiffer router, I would say it’s ridiculously slow. It’s supposed to have a max 135 IPM feed rate.
Max machine feed is 135, correct. I wasn't running at full feed there because it was a relatively deep cut, so was favoring WOC/DOC over feedrate
Why no power in the specs? (Only 1.5kW for those who are interested and not from the US)
good presenter
I bet the 24R would be an absolute beast with a small high feed endmill. What are the max feeds?
@Jarret - Maximum Feed Rate: 200 IPM (5.0 m/min). And yes, you are correct, the 24R is a BEAST! 💪
Great review!
I don't think I could handle the mega mess this thing creates. Nuts!
a way to avoid the knuckle smashing is to use your legs to produce the forward or backward motion rather than your arms since your legs have far more strength than your arms so they can decelerate your hands much faster than your arms can.
Where is Johnny 5???
I want a machine for cutting watch parts.
📢📢📢where is Jonny 5??? I would love to see anything on him. PLEASE AND THANK YOU BUT REALLY
Cast iron? That looks like a welded steel frame to me.
That rigidity of the X axis looks like Fusion 360 gonna get a run for the money "Spring pass"
Really? use a CNC machine to machine the wood, I guess the wood block must be super expensive.. haha
A shapeoko can cut aluminum. The 24R and 770 are completely different types of machines its apple to strawberys.
I file a complaint against a company like an American scammer.
Tormach This company does not send the ordered goods. Of course, the approval was made in October 2021. I file a complaint against fraud against customers of these companies.
30 seconds in and they've already tried to compare this tormach router to a datron 🤦♂️
Yeah, and ending on saying it will work fine as a replacement... If this is a replacement for the Datron, I would think they were not using the Datron to the fullest of its capabilities?
So basically it's a joke for metals. Got it.