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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2020
- seedbed.com
Seedbed's mission is to gather, connect, and resource the people of God to sow for a great awakening. // Find out more and join the awakening journey! seedbed.com
The Bible teaches that all people are called to repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:1; Acts 16:30-31), while also acknowledging that we are dead in sin and cannot come to God of our own accord (John 6:44 & 65; Romans 3:9-12; Ephesians 2:1; Philippians 2:13). How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory realities-the biblical call to repentance with what is often called total depravity? What this Seven Minute Seminary video with Brian Shelton as he explains what bridges this gap.
Throughout church history many have described the enabling effect of God's grace as prevenient grace. This grace that "goes before" is the work of God's Spirit on human hearts to loosen sin's natural grip on us. Prevenient grace testifies to God’s being the initiator of our relationship with him and reveals him as one who pursues us. It becomes distinctly Wesleyan in its reach and scope by going beyond Reformed common grace and toward reconciliation with God.
Four passages that John Wesley referred to often were (NIV): John 1:9 ("The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world"); John 12:32 ("And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself”); Romans 2:4: ("Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"); and Titus 2:11 ("For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people").
Three qualities of prevenient grace:
Prevenient grace is enabling
Prevenient grace is transformative
Prevenient grace is universal
Two important qualifications:
Prevenient grace is not universalism.
Prevenient grace is not saving.
Thank you,Dr. Shelton🌹⭐⭐🌹
I am a diehard United Methodist Christian who has been listening to a really good theologian named Leighton Flowers who has an excellent podcast called "Soteriology 101". His perspective on prevenient grace (which he discusses often) has begun to become appealing to me. The difference between Leighton Flowers and John Wesley seems to be a difference that many Christians have on this topic, namely, how they define prevenient grace. Flowers says that the Fall did not damage our ability to believe and that prevenient grace is given whenever someone is exposed to the gospel. Wesley says the Fall did damage our ability to believe but that prevenient grace is given to everyone at birth, which enables them to believe once they hear the gospel.
Trust Wesley.
@Johno then you have not actually read any of Pelagius's work OR what Pelagianism was accused of being. I'm reading his work now and it is ridiculous how much of a witch hunt it was over the topic of infant baptism. Pelagius was acquitted twice and the third time he wasn't even present. Augustine lied to protect infant baptism, cause Augustine believed in infant baptism regeneration. He believed unbaptized babies went to hell. They is why he attacked Pelagius over lies. Pelagius was acquitted twice, then the third time he wasn't even there in person. Pelagius denied "Pelagianism" every time he spoke. It truly is a boogeyman.
@Johno Well, not really since Pelagianism holds that man can come to God *without* Grace, while Flowers says Grace comes first.
Total depravity is an idea for augustine. It has infected the whole church. We are broken and sinful, But we still have a moral ability to respond. God's call is available to all, This is why we are required to give an account of what we did with jesus.
@@thewayfarersjourney6336Trust Jesus rather than a man.
The strongest argument I can find for prevenient grace is In Hebrews 3:15 and 6:4-6 and I would be curious as to why this teacher didn’t address these passages as he was making his case!
As I said, these seem to make the strongest argument for me although I am not convinced. We hear of Moses hardening his heart and then God hardens it. We understand that man’s heart is hardened every time he is reproved of his sinful condition, is exposed to the Gospel message and rejects it. It is not God but man hardening his own heart against the word of God, the witness of his creation and the work of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that mankind does in fact have a free will but left to his own free will, he will freely reject the Gospel and choose to remain in darkness! Those who reject Christ and go to Hell choose to do so of their own free will and will stand before God without excuse - especially the excuse that “God didn’t elect them!”
We were DEAD in our trespasses and sin and dead means DEAD! The only way for us not to be dead is for God to make us alive! Because I have been made alive, I believe! And because I believe, I am keenly aware of the depth of depravity from which the LORD has saved me and I have no desire to return!
God is under no obligation whatsoever to save anyone and why he would save someone like me is beyond my ability to understand. I am quite grateful that he has!
Ray, I appreciate your comment and understand where you’re coming from. But how are you so sure you won’t fall away from the faith sometime in the future? It is my understanding that many Calvinists/Reformed folk will say that those who once believed they were genuinely saved and yet fell away were never elect to begin with. So what makes you sure of your salvation within the Calvinistic or double-predestination system? I’m not trying to harm your assurance at all. But these are questions that deter me away from holding to a Calvinistic understanding of the scriptures. I’d be interested to know your thoughts.
The Calvinist/Arminian debate ignores the older Lutheran understanding of election/predestination etc. Like Calvinists Lutherans are Monergistic. Scripture does teach that God elects us to salvation and then brings our salvation about without our cooperation. However, scripture also teaches that God desires that all would be saved and come to faith. This seems to be a contradiction but it’s not, it’s actually a mystery. Unlike Calvinists who rely to heavily on their own reason to make these apparent contradictions fit into their soteriology Lutherans simply accept the mystery and affirm that both things are true because scripture says both things. God does elect, we do not cooperate with him in our salvation at all. God also wants all people to be saved. Both things are true. How that works is a mystery that Lutherans are comfortable with.
As much as I would have wanted the Arminian view to be true, I, unfortunately, have never seen an Arminian point to a specific scripture that supports prevenient grace. Just like the speaker in this video, other Arminians I've listened to, only assume that there's an intermediate moment between total depravity and salvation where God's grace is temporarily made available to a sinful man so he can decide to choose God or not. As much as this thought would have been awesome (especially for our human perception of the nature of God), I just don't see any scriptural reference on a temporal salvific grace stated in scripture.
As a lifelong Arminian, as soon as I understood the doctrine of Total Depravity, coupled with a scriptural understanding of the Doctrine of Election/Predestination, I had to painfully affirm the Calvinistic point of view on the subject as scripturally accurate. I understand the difficulty in accepting the fact that God, in His sovereignty elected some vessels unto honour and others unto dishonour to the glory of His name, but "who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
Except the Bible has literally zero passages that says man is Absolute Unable. That is a man made doctrine. God seeks us first, but no scripture says we cannot respond to the Gospel, the living Word of God. Lots of scriptures that say that it is sufficient along with called messengers to preach the good news.
Titus 2:11, the grace that brings salvation appears to all. If this is true, and we know that not all are saved, then saving grace cannot be irresistible, but prevenient
1 John 5
If God's grace abounds for one person, then it's also abounding for everyone.
Why? If God wills all to be saved and therefore gives prevenient grace to all, why are not all saved? Is it only those who act righteously (those who exercise faith) who are rewarded with eternal life? No, God gets what he wants. Saving grace is not resistible.
gentlemen seemed a bit nervous, but he presented information well.
This is why no one is at the great white throne judgment will be able to say that God did not give them a true chance to go to heaven. They will realize all the times that God's call was on their life and they ignored it.
@seedbed I'm sorry.. @ 1:40 is the wrong book referenced that verses comes from Ephesians 2:8-9
Where does election fit into this?
Wesleyanism denies election or devises its own unbiblical definition.
When did God gave prevenient grace?
Yes.
But the prevenient grace of God isnt enough for some people? Saul was confronted by the risen Lord on the road to damascus and believed, why doesnt he confront all of us like that? I agree that the grace of God is given to all people but to what degree? unless of course you believe God shows favoritism, or for that matter works through a type of unconditional election.
add molinism to it. God middle knew that Paul would repent in that circumstance, so he actualized a world where Paul would repent.
@@UltraX34 I'm not sure molinism can remedy the problem. Why can't God create a world where all creatures repent? If God has created a world where only some of his creatures repent, wouldnt that be the same as saying God has chosen some and not others?
@@lukemerrick8517 no. That's not how that works. A free choice to resist God's grace is made. For love to be genuine rejection has to be possible. God doesn't want anyone to reject Him, but we make that choice. Molinism upholds both aspects, where God has so sovereignly ordered the world but man has free choice. Even if Molinism isn't true (which, surveying the Biblical data, it seems to be), we still have to deal with the fact that people (resist the holy spirit - Acts 7:51). We reject God. We don't choose him. We choose our own way. That's just how it is. That anyone is saved at all is a miracle. I understand struggling with why God made it this way, I think the problem is assuming that it's somehow wrong for God to choose some and not others. And, just fyi, I think the Bible makes that much broader than Calvinism - God chooses all who by his grace believe in Jesus Christ, and this grace is a given to all but rejected by many. That's not God's fault, since true love requires choice
@@UltraX34 Interesting point, but I still dont see that as explaining the present reality of things. You say we have a free choice to resist the grace of God, but is it truly free if it is inhibited by the effects of sin? Arguably, if sin was eliminated from a creature, that creature would only choose the good, would he not?
I think it is fundamentaly wrong (and contradictory) for God to choose some and not others. I would even go so far as to say that it is equally wrong for God to allow any of his creatures to remain in a state of brokeness - especially if there is an eternal hell fire to be paid because of it.
Can we not say that prevenient grace extends beyond the grave? That eventually through the relentless love of God all creatures willingly and freely choose God? I certainly think so, I believe that Jesus is restoring his entire creation. "See, I am making all things new!".
@@lukemerrick8517 There is no doubt that prevenient grace is biblical. John 12 clearly states that God draws ALL men to himself. However, I see your problem.
"Arguably, if sin was eliminated from a creature, that creature would only choose the good, would he not?" This is incorrect. Even a sinless creature (like Adam and Eve) still sinned even though they did not have concupiscence (an attraction to sin). God's prevenient grace draws all people to Him but we must accept it or reject it.
I'm a Calvinist. I wanted to learn about Prevenient Grace. I'm half-way through the video and I'm dying here... can't you guys find someone who doesn't fumble the ball as badly as this guy!? Come on Dr Shelton!! Abraham's salvation story is recorded in the Old Testament! And Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, not of yourself, it is a gift of God IN EPHESIANS 2..... not Galatians!! Come on man!! And oh wow..... I've just read 10 different English translations of Romans 2:4 and not one of them says, "Do you not know that God's grace leads you to salvation."
I really was hoping to learn how the Bible teaches the doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Is this how you guys come up with your theology? You get a guy who seems to have never actually READ any of the verses he's leaning on to explain the doctrine?
Uugghhhh...
Of course, he would also say that women can be pastors. So many false teachers in the world!
Read the early fathers east and west to interpret Scripture, as Wesley did.
Do you believe you know more than the Apostles Paul? The Apostle Paul details a "Prevenient Grace" from God within Acts 17:24-31. Three specific verses especially, verse 26-27 & verse 30. Do you believe you know more than God through formulating your own belief system about God? The Word should change you, you shouldn't change the Word.
THE PURPOSE OF LIFE...
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:24-31)
16 When one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning nor distort God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For , with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 3:16 to 2 Corinthians 4:6)
1. by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.
2. we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways.
3. We refuse to practice cunning
4. nor distort God's word
5. by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
6. what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord
7. with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
You claim prevenient grace is universal and all men receive it. I ask you therefore, when was this prevenient grace administered to the native Brazilians 500 years before Christ or even 800 years after? When was it administered to the native American 1500 before Christ? When was it administered to the Natives of Britain 300 years before Abraham?
Great video! Common grace has absolutely no biblical grounds, all of God's grace is salvific in it's intent.
so God wants to save everyone?
22 Now Eli was very old; and he heard about everything that his sons were doing to all Israel, and that they slept with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 23 So he said to them, “Why are you doing such things as these, the evil things that I hear from all these people? 24 No, my sons; for the report is not good which I hear the Lord’s people circulating. 25 If one person sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a person sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.
1 Sam 2
20 Then He began to reprimand the cities in which most of His [q]miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment, than for you.”
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to infants. 26 Yes, Father, for this way was well pleasing in Your sight. 27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son determines to reveal Him.
Matt 11
Do you Wesleyans ever read the Bible? Or do you just create doctrines to make you feel good about God, like Wesley did?
@@hondotheology
You sound like a cage stage Calvinist that simply doesn't understand Wesleyan or Arminian theology. God doesn't want to save everyone indiscriminately because he loves wicked people so much. Rather he desires for the wicked to turn from their ways and upon the condition of their repentance he saves them.
In the case of Eli's sons they refused to repent and trust in God so he put them to death. Same with anyone that spurns the grace of God to a great extent, for after time God will give a person over to their sin and the misery of their choosing. God's word even says he mocks them in their calamity, and will cut to pieces the wicked servant that acts against his ways.
Yet he desires for all to follow his ways and be in relationship with him. The verse that you quoted about the nations would of repented if Christ would of initially gone to them proves my point again. For Jesus taught repentance for the Jews first and they refused to follow him. God desired that they would repent, but they rejected him.
Common grace is simply never taught in scripture, for all grace is intended to lead people to repentance (Romans 2:4).
Do you not believe the Word of God when he says that he desires the wicked to turn and live?
@@calvinpeterson9581 1. God was talking to Israel, not everyone at large (Ezekiel 18) I don't know if you've noticed, but God did not send the Israelites on some great campaign to redeem the pagan nations. He sent his prophets to proclaim judgment. Jonah is the exception, not the rule. He sent Israel to destroy the other nations, not to save them, but you believe "God loved them all." He did not. Joshua 11.20. 2. You're twisting the passage in 1 Samuel. They did not repent because _God wanted to put them to death_ You're rearranging the consequence to be the cause. This passage tells us the same thing as _to this doom they were appointed_ 1 Peter 2.8 and God grants faith Phil 1.29 3. _Everyone spurns the grace of God_ How do you define this "great extent of spurning"? Does God love the sinner or not? Does he want to save him or not? Then how can any measure of our "spurning" contradict his grace, according to you? And how much defiance will he tolerate for those he loves? Shouldn't his patience be infinite, if he loves me and desires to save me? If it isn't, then clearly he'd rather judge me then save me. If he doesn't see to it, in all his wisdom, love, mercy, and patience, that I am saved, then clearly he does not want me to be saved badly enough. But if his patience, love, and mercy is infinite for all of us, then we will all be saved because he desires that above all, more than my free will, more than my judgment. Your God does not try hard enough to save sinners that you claim he loves. You do not even respond to "No one knows the Father except those to whom the Son wishes to reveal himself." Clearly he doesn't want all to believe in him if he hides knowledge of himself. Nothing you believe makes any sense. Call me all the stage name labels you want if that makes you feel better about your illogical and unscriptural beliefs.
You're literally saying that God only saves the good people, the faithful people, the ones that he likes, that like him. All the _really_ bad ones, the defiant people, the most stubborn, the most in need of grace, all of them according to you, God says, they can go to hell.