Is the new Ram behaviour Broken!?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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I'm still waiting for when somebody tries this with Cumans in Feudal Age. It's different (Archers have more frame delay), but the timing is much more aggressive.
ram are too expansives and archers do low damage.
I mean I kind of have but it's super expensive and usually I go scout ram and that tends to sweep on arena. Going archer too would be too hard on wood, tho I'm only 900 elo.
@@gerard_palace Yes, but also no.
You save the whole click to Castle Age, and the opponent wil lalso not be in Castle Age (yet). In that case, Archers do fine against Feudal Age units, and your Rams are basically indestructible (no mangonels and villagers can't get close due to the archers.)
Nice idea. But the problem is it's very expensive in feudal age. Once you create the siege workshop and 1 ram with 4 archers it's enough resources for /he other player to be on the way to Castle age.
And scouts counter the Ram+Archers anyways.
Archers unfortunately do very low damage (4) without upgrades, while Jannies don't need upgrades at all to deal high damage (17). Scouts/Eagles (yes, the dreaded "Horses and Igelos" again) with one armor upgrade (2+1) would destroy both the Archers and the Rams, as they'd only take 1 damage from both (or a still anemic 2 against Fletching, but that's 150 extra resources from an already stretched Feudal-age eco).
Isn't this basically what hussite wagons were supposed to be, just stronger and available to all civs?
This probably needs some time before making a final call. I kind of like it strategically but am worried running into this on ladder all the time. Looks like a pain to deal with...
Yeah, looks like it may be worse at lower levels, as it’s relatively small micro for the attacker and relatively hard to deal with for the defender
@@rainbowevil It's a lot of micro actually, the attacker can't even look at their own base, but your point still stands. Most people would simply try to fight this head-on, but in this case that's the hardest method.
@@danieltoth9742
While your jumping in and out aggressively. But you can garrison pull back for a sec do some macro and go right back to being aggressive without risking much at all. Mangonel aren't going to catch up and ranged cant really hurt your rams so unless you try and do it while fighting mass cav your pretty safe.
@@fishsnapz5501 That's true, and it highlights a small but important weakness of this Ram-micro: You can't be pressured at all if you're forcing the opponent to pay attention elsewhere. Most strategies benefit from micro, but this one requires it.
Rams vs rams. Skirms vs jannies. Jannies dont 1 shot rams
In Starcraft 2 units don't unload instantly, but one by one which might be the right way to fix this if it becomes too strong. Or maybe revert the change to ram capacity so that they hold 4 units instead of 6, which seems even better. But yeah we need some time to see if this is too strong for sure before making any changes
At the very least, making the unload action initiate the reload timer could be an immediate fix.
it doesn't completely remove the tactic, but it does soften the most abusive aspect of it imo.
Wouldn't resetting the units' reload timer be a simple one-size-fits-all fix here? It would only affect this exploit, since this game mechanic isn't used otherwise. It also wouldn't destroy this completely, just nerf it to a reasonable level.
I think this is the perfect way to balance this.
In my opinion you should not do patches where strategies become completely unviable, that's not in the spirit of a strategy game. Let people figure out a way to counter this on their own. After a while you can patch something that gives counterplay NOT to patch the fun out of the game by limiting what people can do.
@@EatEaty I can think of a few counters myself, but they are either too unintuitive to think of on the fly, hard to pull off micro-wise, need specific macro executed perfectly, or all of the above:
1. heavy Feudal aggression to prevent the strat entirely (the only method that isn't beyond the skill of most players)
2. spam more Rams than the opponent (they counter eachother) + ranged units behind in case Jannies try to leave (your Rams will draw all the auto-fire, so the garrison micro doesn't work)
3. few Rams to tank + many Mangonels shooting out of sync to deal with the Rams and suppress the Jannies so they can't exit
The only actually good option is the first one -- preventing the strat. Countering it once it happens is barely possible. I advocate for a nerf, because other strategies are nowhere near this difficult to fight against when you have all the right units.
p.s. As I said, the nerf I proposed wouldn't kill this entirely, just make it so the Jannies aren't _completely invincible_ WHILE doing high damage. You could still do this strat, since your Rams draw all auto-fire, meaning the opponent needs to manually micro down your Janissaries before they hide again, which is still challenging -- just not utterly impossible, like it is now.
I think you have to be careful with the melee units. I think the traditional infantry+rams needs the reload to happen in the ram, otherwise, the infantry would be pretty useless
@@kojii6159 I'm not against making an exception for melee units, but they usually need to walk to their target, so they couldn't attack immediately anyway. So I think they wouldn't get affected too much.
What about rams with spearmen to counter? You would have more speed and damage on a ram to ram fight, and, with the rams taken out, you fight the janissaries with skirmishers. Maybe with longswordsmen instead of spearmen you could do the same garrison/ungarrison to kill the janissaries
It wouldn't work nearly as well with melee units, because they need time to walk to their target -- and this exploit relies on regarrisoning quickly, before the enemy arrows hit your units. Instead, you need your own Rams to draw the shots (the Jannies auto-target the closest unit when exiting, and their shots are wasted if that's a Ram), while adding multiple Mangonels to quickly take out the Rams from a distance. (one Mango isn't enough, the Rams need to be taken out quicker than the opponent can react)
But I think you are onto something. Rams to draw fire + mango aound like great counter. I thought siege tower to close the gap + melee would be good too, but even after rams die what would melee do?!
But maybe just building more rams than your opponent could work...
This is not something that needs fixing, this just finally makes rams viable before siege ram and lets you use them as they were intended historically
Civs that could benefit from siege towers (and rams as well) are Malians and Franks. Being considered as infantry, they increase siege tower's movement speed (and ram's attack speed as well). Though Franks have short range until you research CA UT, that movement speed helps to balance it. Also, Ghbetos are high mobile raiding units, so it is a weird way to use them 😂 but nobody would expect this.
I had the same thought and I tried Throwing Axe men in a game against the AI the other day, and it was underwhelming: they don't fire instantly like janissaires when you unload them, and although they do speed up the rams, the control group will only move as fast as the slowest ram, so unless they're all full they don't seem to move much faster. (maybe attack clicking them changes that? Nor sure)
@@peterhodgson3696 aye, janiss shoot instantly, while ghbetos and axemen have a delay that feels pretty long 😂
What about doing this with Bohemians and hand cannons in Castle age? That's another alternative. Hussite Wagons with extra steps!
Hussite Wagon at home:
I've seen Hoang eat tcs with 2 rams 4 spear and 4 villagers even against top players. This is substantially slower. For the price of 3 fully loaded jannisary rams, you can field 8 mangonels. 8 mangonels will flatten 3 rams in no time and no more garrisonning. All of these "op" examples are against underprepared or poorly prepared opponents.
So many people in all kinds of competitive games misunderstand these types of cheese strategies. The issue isn't always "there's no counterplay" but mostly it's "this is a dumb features that can turn some situations in the game into annoying shitfests and take away from what previously is established as the skill focus".
Even if this turns out to barely ever be useful, there will be situations where it is. And in those situations it's gonna require changing ones whole gameplan: "Just wait until you have 5 mangonels and more skirmishers while he's ramming down your TC and idling your economy".
Same reason why I think the Portugese needed a nerf so badly last year. It was annoying and not fun, and it removes skill from the game to go 22pop fast castle all in. And I feel the same way about the cuman boom on closed maps still. The game stops being AOE2 and starts being "counter the portugese castle drop", or "balance your eco to get more mangonels vs the ram-janissary abuser" or "try and catch up to the cuman boom".
Anyone who has ever played an FPS game knows that being able to take cover is very useful.
Funny enough, in AOE2, Turk janissaries+ram combo works like real life hand cannons+Hussite wagon combo
I saw the game with testgame, and i feel his strategie was juste bad against it: he walled early: wasted ressources, he added a tc against really low eco. It's like playing hoang right, if you dont have enought army early, you can die on a timing. It should be really hard to push if he had like 3 mangonels, maybe impossible even.
But tho it's cool to finally see a strat that really hard counter monk play, i feel we saw way to much monk lately
Pretty much like Warp Prism teleporting marines
Units shouldn't reload in seige or transports
that's terrible. what if you genuinely want to retreat?
@@hareshneeraj998 reload as in have their attack cooldown process while in seige.
I like the idea that in late game rams will be easier to use with any army. Benefitting from increased attack speed without awful micro every unit into a ram.
I hope these all in plays don’t ruin that potential
thankfully Jannisaries dont have 8 range in Castle Age anymore, otherwise they could nuke the mangonels
rams also got buffed recently with more garrison space and move speed
Rams with longswords are actually kind of fast for castle age.
I've been working on a cuman capped ram rush strategy.
It sounds silly, but your own rams is an ok counter here against jannisaries and no need to engage with supporting until rams are down
Garrisoned rams have less armour?
I've been explaining my perspective on this in AoE III lately too, but THE more builds/THE greater number of them that you can go for the stronger your civ becomes inherently.
Ottomans versus Haude is my reference - where the latter is essentially good at 2 things going up with a mild/fairly weak eco or rushing (rushing has been nerfed however) - whereas the former can be braindead in multiple ways... it can fast fortress (Age III), fast imperial (Age IV), Janissary Rush, Abusive Gunner + Janissary Rush, Azap Rush, in Age III you can rush/raid with Sipahi or send 2 falconets, perhaps instead you go 3/4 T.C.s (which auto-spawn villagers for free), you can even fish boom/countre an opponent's fish from the start since you have quite good ships.
The number of strategies alone - particularly with variable unit choices, is what inherently makes it 10 times harder (once you've learned the builds of course) for your opponent to play against you.
We're not in farming simulatour, we have opponents. And having 10 Builds versus 2 Builds - or at least the builds again being braindead for 1 civ & not the other is what makes for a stronger civ right from the start in my opinion.
Will Malians not be a pretty strong civ for this? They need upgrades is I guess the downside & their eco bonus requires a cost rather than being passive I guess, with shorter ranged units... But they buff the Ram unlike the Jans!
a real reasonable take on the issue by the GOAT.
just because the opponents got caught by surprise it does not mean that this is broken, let alone the fact that most of the players are not able to execute this strategy at this level of precision. it requires strong macro- and micromanagement.
If this becomes something of a endemic, I'm sure there's a means to still retain the new loading method for infantry whilst restricting its use with ranged units.
No, just needs some delay for entering back and forth.
More counters to monk strats is always welcome.
Hope the devs don't rush to reaction-nerf this immediately just because it looks strong as usual. Strats and counters taking time to develop is what keeps this game intersting.
Looking forward to Viper making some masterpieces with this on ladder.
I would wager players could have done this exact play even before the new mechanic, just needed 1 group control key per ram-occupants.
This could be a lot of fun initially but eventually people will find a way to prepare for defending against it. Worst case if its broken disable garrisoning of gunpowder units into battering rams.
this is one of those examples where the devs keep trying to make the game more casual, thereby breaking balance
Just make your own ram in front to tank and attack the rams. Mangonel behind the ram as support
Aren’t Janniseries quite strong against rams though? And you will have way less rams than the opponent and they’re pretty costly.
@@rainbowevil Jannies do pierce damage, which means 1 damage per shot to rams -- so with the right positioning, having just one or two Rams at a time to draw fire would be enough.
@@rainbowevil yes jans do decent damange vs rams, but they can tank several volleys. while the ram is auto-targeted, the mangonel can get in several more free shots. its also critical to not boom against this strat, as you wont have enough army.
Are Teutonic Knights finally a viable option together with Ram rush?
The problem in doing this with a siege tower is that the monks can convert the tower from distance while they can't do that vs a ram.
very good point
Me watching videos about R.A.M. and seeing the first thumbsnail at first glance with written RAM with capitol letters, lol.
The worry I guess is that you may need to scout it ahead of time or just be totally dead, which is not ideal
I think the fact that when you enter the ram the skirm has to change target, then when you come out the same thing , so you could in turn reset the enemys attack.
The problem is just like with human towers castles etc instant garrison and ungarison is stupid .. make it .5 or 1 sec then all this stuff way better
I honestly believe that this was always an option, of course now it is easier to garrison faster, but in the second to last video (the Sudden Death one), the janissaries don't even garrison that much. There was an old video of Viper using a similar strategy with gbetos and siege towers
This is the behavior as it should be. If there is an issue, deal with it another way.
The thing is it shouldn't even be kind of viable. In my opinion if it can win competitive games in needs to be removed. It is played in a way that the game is clearly not ment to be played.
this is just the new vill ram combo essentially
If it does becxome a problem, adding a slight cd to the button could fix it. Needs time to properly test though
This strategy is countered by ramming the Battering Rams (Battering Rams have a +40 attack bonus versus siege, take extremely little damage from Janissaries, and the defending 🛡 player has the better economy to outproduce the all-in) or converting the Siege Tower.
It is also pretty weak to the meta of Archers 🏹 and/or Scouts, as the home base has no defence to the Feudal aggression.
Though it is a bit annoying.
I think they should change it, so siege weapons can garrison in Siege Workshops (and military units can garrison in their production buildings in general). That way, defensive 🛡 Mangonels would hard counter the strategy, as Mangonels do not have an attack delay, but all the Castle Age high damage ranged units for the all in do. So they are better at the jump in/jump out game.
It would punish the all-in severely, while not punishing fair uses of the better garrisoning for rams.
Is the fix not units can't reload while in rams. Makes sense, you're pushing a massive ram you cant reload. Still allows the play, but units are more exposed.
Most interesting: what other Civs could work with other unite? Way back to meta for archer Civs?
But viper if we wait for 20 skirms then won't he also have more janissaries and rams?
When you defend you are closer to your military buildings so your army grow faster than the attacker ;)
Worse. The defender might lose their base before they can reach the necessary numbers. In the example T90 featured, the rams were already knocking down the base at the 18-minute mark.
"Do not engage before you have the numbers" is fine advice... as long as the enemy is not forcing the issue by ramming down your production buildings :)
How about picking off enemy reinforcements while you mass? The Janissaries in particular need to walk a long way without Ram support to get to your base.
@@daa3930well he is the viper and you are trash, he knows what he is talking about, you have to allow the opponent to do some damage, coz allt he opponent has rn is the push on you if he loses it he loses the game as he has no eco
@@daa3930 If the enemy has a castle, 5 rams and 20 Jannisaries and you can't even mass 20 skirms then you have already lost
when video i was wrong this is 2 stronk
This doesn't feel like Age of Empires 2. If it's broken or not broken, I don't really care-- I don't think it should be a strong strategy at all. While you might work out some reload delay and patch it to make it mathematically balanced, I feel that it goes against the spirit of the game.
Quickwalls go against the spirit of the game. This is fine.
I have seen hoang counter it with Light Cav+Knights (of course nos are required) n with siege to back them up.
Whether or not this is good or bad this seems like unintended behavior for the added functionality. Yes, it does exactly what the devs said it does, easy one click management of garrison/ungarrison, but I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the devs didn't think this one through like is typical for the modern dev team.
now make rams fly and we will have reaver drops Pogchamp
Kinda wish they'd stop messing with core mechanics
Alright let's talk about it.
For transport ships, I think its ok but for rams...
The nerv Hera recommended like for example janissaries cannot shot instantly after getting out of the rams, seems necessary.
It seems that its only strong for units with fast reload time.
Like Jans and hand cannons.
You mean slow reload time
@@Igor369 they mean it’s strong for units with low frame delay before firing.
Don't get mangonells. Get rams vs rams and skirms vs jannies
This looks a little cursed. It looks worse for pro play and straight-up annoying for mid-elos like mine. The units should not have reload time while garrisoned.
Why was not it done beofre the patch with just 1 or 2 rams anyway? Just because you could not conveniently all in on HCs + rams like now does not mean 1 or 2 rams filled with HCs would have been bad. Starcraft already does single shuttle + reaver for decades already and this is almost that.
think its pretty cool reminds me sc2 terran
All examples have janissaries involved. Maybe this specific combo is the most problematic? Potentially just address this for range units garrisoning in rams.
that is 100% broken and should not be in a strategy game
*laughs in Starcraft, CnC etc*
By the way this is just doable with Turks... so... yeah, not really a concern.
We will see what comes of it for a bit but if it ends up being refined and more oppressive either it needs to be removed, rams need to have their garrison count reduced or rams nerfed with something like only taking reduced damage from buildings.
Could also make units that leave a ram not attack for 2 seconds or perhaps making rams only able to garrison infantry(likely the easiest fix from a coding stand point).
I feel like units should try to go to the selected ram first, and only when they don't fit, they go to a different one. That way, the exploit is not possible because the units would be longer time out of the rams.
TestGame is Fedex's smurf
Regardless of being capable of fighting back or not, this is clearly not what the change was supposed to address, which was a quality of life upgrade to ease garrison infantry into rams more smothly. This is clearly broken in the sense that It does not make sense in any way and the unit inside are clearly dealing much more damage and take much less damage then if they fought "normally"
Just make it so you can garrison with just one button but ungarrison needs to be individual to each ram.
OnlyRams
Can't you pros let us low elo plebians have any fun? Even for 5 minutes 😆
The thing I would be worried about is...the answer seems to be build up then engage, but if you wait, your buildings are gone and your vils are dead.
Please consider a mankini try-on.
Also...F monks. so yay
Let him try against my persian elephants hehehehe 😂
Isnt the answer to this mass knights?
IMO if this is too annoying/broken just make it so only infantry can garrison in rams. Its cool utility for the suffering infantry but might be too much for jannnies
I wonder if the GL boys are testing this together, if you find the correct response please let me know ;)
Go cba x6 , arabia is broken
I think the issue is that it’s not fun or interactive to play against. I know there are other frustrating things in the game, but this just feels cheap.
this is not the purpose of rams end
IT IS BROKEN! PLEASE NERF.
Just need a 15 second cooldown on the button and problem fixed.
Fatherless rams
Make rams slightly more expensive.
Nah. Rams aren't the problem here.
That would punish other uses of them.
And wouldn't even affect the all-in the most.
Why not limit the new behavior to transport ships and buildings (assuming it applies to buildings in the first place)? Transport ships are what this is really needed for anyway.