Hi everyone, thanks for watching and engaging with the video! I wanted to take a moment to address some great points raised in the comments regarding torque, power, and engine performance. First, I may have oversimplified the relationship between torque and horsepower in the script. Here’s a more accurate explanation: Torque and RPM combine to produce power, and it’s the power being delivered to the wheels that ultimately determines acceleration and performance. Torque at low RPM helps with initial acceleration, but the powerband (usable power across the RPM range) is what really matters in most driving and racing scenarios. For example, a diesel engine often has a broader powerband, which can make it feel more powerful in everyday driving or towing. But petrol engines, with their higher RPM limits, tend to excel in high-speed and racing applications because they can sustain power at higher speeds. I also want to clarify the bike analogy in the video-it may have been misleading. My intention wasn’t to describe the torque output at the crank in different gears but rather to illustrate the force you have to apply with your foot on the pedals. In hindsight, this analogy could have been clearer, and I appreciate those of you who pointed this out. Lastly, focusing solely on peak torque (Mmax) without considering power across the rev range can be misleading. It’s the area under the curve that defines how an engine performs in different situations. I truly appreciate the constructive feedback-it’s helped me see where I can improve future explanations. Thanks for keeping me honest, and I’m sorry if any oversights in the video caused confusion. Let’s keep learning together!
May as well stop @PistonAvatarGuy from commenting as he spreads misinformation about diesels and uses backwards logic to reinforce the flawed viewpoints. Diesels were a force to be reckoned with in heavy duty applications, so he's clearly biased towards gasoline. Not saying that to be rude or disrespectful, but people like him can't go around lying or misleading everyone else.
For everyone saying Audi TDI and lemans, remember those are 24h endurance races, where fuel consumption and keeping the engine alive helps win the races more than the pushing it all the time
The R18 did have great performance to complement its low fuel consumption though. The fact that torque was all down low made it extremely fast on corner exits without the need to downshift and eliminated the need of a sixth gear
This isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison. Different rules…With equal regulations, the diesel does not stand a chance. Feel free to think of it as 2 different classifications riding together. Even if they try to use regulations to bring these 2 as close together as possible.
Not true the r10 TDI was neutered by the Le Mans rules. They had the same maximum displacement, and the same maximum HP, but their fuel cell was restricted in size in comparison to their gasoline compatriots. Also this was before dieselgate and they ran with full emissions compliance for the time. As someone who has driven and tuned both I can assure you that a 300 HP diesel and a 300 HP gasser are both a crap load of fun in the right circumstances.
@myonen4402 To make up for any deficit that the diesels might have had, they were initially allowed to be much larger than the turbocharged gasoline engines. The diesels were allowed to be nearly twice as large as the turbocharged gasoline engines. The diesels didn't run with full emissions controls, they only used a DPF. Apparently, Audi initially did this of their own accord. In 2014, VAG was forced to issue a recall on their diesel products, due to noncompliance with emissions regulations. This recall was the beginning of the Dieselgate scandal and the same year that it was done was also the last year that a diesel would win at Le Mans. Yes, the smaller fuel cell finally put an end to the reign of the diesels, but they were still allowed to be significantly larger in displacement than their gasoline competitors. IMO, it's extremely unfortunate that the FIA, chose to restrict the diesels in this way, it would have been far more interesting if they had allowed the cars the same amount of energy and the same amount of displacement. If that had happened, I would bet that the diesels still would have been thoroughly beaten, just as they are in every other form of racing on Earth. Still, I think that the FIA wanted a more decisive way to push diesels out of the racing series, as it had become clear that diesel engines weren't the clean alternative to gasoline engines that they had been purported to be.
Yeah but you forgot that diesel engines are super heavy as it's very reinforced (because of the enormous torque/energi they produce), so that's another reason why they don't rev high
That is certainly a factor, but main reason diesels don’t rev high is because of fuel flow. These days even direct-injection petrol motors can struggle to perform at high RPM and high power, so that becomes even more of a struggle with the higher cylinder pressure of a diesel fighting against the injection system.
@@youbous4572 actually no, although diesel has more torque than petrol engine, EV motor has even more torque, right from 0 rpm, and EV typically has gazillion horsepower
@@lansimanThe torque curve drops off dramatically as RPM increases so that gazillion horsepower is not available at high speed -- a 500 HP gasoline powered Mustang can outrun a Tesla over 80 mph (where the Mustang's natural tendency to seek and destroy crowds is disabled).
There's more misinformation about it online than anything else. If anyone trying to explain it did a simple calculation for force (N) at the wheels, they would see that torque is basically meaningless once you use this thing called "transmission" and only pure horsepower makes a difference. Or that high torque at low rpm just means hogher hp at low rpm.
@ShortShortsfromreddit Kind of Agreeing. This video is decent, because it points out obvious mistakes made by others, but it's not quite there yet. I think it has to do with the fact, that everyone is looking for some deeper meaning behind those numbers, because "there is a reason why manufacturers quote them, right?". Even this video made some questionable assumptions with "gets you going" and "keeps you moving". Torque is just a part of horsepower and it's linearly related. The only thing is that there are two variables (torque and rpm) changing simultaneously.
Torque isn't meaningless.... as its part of what gives you the total horsepower number. Horsepower = torque X rpm divided by 5252. This means in order to get higher hp numbers, you should have higher torque numbers too. Working with low torque numbers, means you have to make up for it with REALLY HIGH rpm numbers. Theres no free lunch in this universe, a transmission isn't going to magically give you greater torque without taking away your total rpm's at the same time. Say a transmission doubles your torque using a ratio of 2/1. Guess what? It will also cut your total revolutions per minute in half at the same time. This means a diesel that makes 400 lb. ft of torque at 2000 rpm would be better than a gas engine that makes 200 lb. ft of torque at the same 2000 rpm, because when the transmission doubles the gas engines torque to 400 lb. ft matching the diesels torque, it will also be spinning at HALF THE SPEED, SLOWER THAN THE DIESEL. I agree only pure horsepower makes a difference, in which torque and engine rpms are factored in equally. Saying torque is meaningless, Is the same as saying length is meaningless when finding the area of a rectangle. When finding the area of a rectangle of course, one must multiple length X width. In order to find horsepower you must do almost the same multiplying torque X rpm and then dividing by 5252 after. And yes, high torque at low rpm just means higher hp at low rpm, I ain't arguing against that, agree 100%.
Oh, torque wins races, huh? Then why aren’t all the winners chugging black smoke in a diesel dragster? Here’s the deal: torque is part of the equation, sure. Diesels have mountains of it-like, rip-a-house-off-its-foundation levels. But horsepower is what seals the deal at high speeds. Horsepower is torque with a clock on it. It’s about how quickly you can apply all that twisty force. Diesels, while torquey as hell, tend to hit their peak power at lower RPMs and then, well, they run out of breath. Gas engines? They scream. They keep making power at higher revs, which is what you need when you’re gunning for the finish line. Also, diesels are heavy. You’re not exactly nimble with a tank under the hood. Weight kills speed. So yeah, torque gets you moving, but horsepower keeps you ahead. And that’s why diesel ain’t stealing the checkered flag.
Spark-ignited engines are capable of making more torque than diesels, it's just that they need more exotic fuels to get into the higher range of their maximum torque output potential. NA gasoline engines just inherently make more torque than diesels.
@@PistonAvatarGuy Diesels typically have more low-end pulling power either way. Plus they're more fuel efficient and the diesel fuel burns with more energy, just at a slow rate.
@@TheSilverShadow17 To properly explain this, I'd have to practically write a novel, so... Why do EcoBoost V6s perform so much better while towing when compared to 3 liter diesels, then?
@@PistonAvatarGuy I wasn't implying the use of Ecoboost V6s but ok. I was looking at it from a typical semi truck and locomotive perspective where those machines are so heavy that a gas engine would be overstressed from the weight. Besides, it sounds like the diesel engine should of never been invented in the first place, I take it?
@@TheSilverShadow17 But I'm using the Ecoboost as an example, as they clearly perform far better than diesels of a similar size. Why is that? Gasoline engines would work just fine in any heavy application and spark ignited engines can be used in those applications. In fact, there are many engines in ships and power plants that use spark-ignition and run on natural gas, while locomotives can also use natural gas in combination with diesel (they use just enough diesel to start the ignition process). Natural gas engines are better than diesels in almost every way possible and are far more widely used as reciprocating power plant engines than diesels. Natural gasoline engines aren't even as strong as gasoline engines, yet they still get used in heavy applications.
The saying came from a time when even race cars had 4 gears. High torque means that the horsepower curve is more spread out. This means that with fewer gears, high torque means a higher effective power. Having a useful rev range of less than 1000 rpms is only useful if you have 6 or more gears
Yup. If we assume one gear, diesels will have far higher torque and thus hp at lower rpm, in which a lot of time will be spent. But modern cars have 8-10 gears. They're able to get really close to cvts, concerning optimal rev range. And if now the gasoline engine can always be kept at its peak rpm of 4500-5500 rpm, it really doesn't matter that at 3000 it doesn't have any power.
A high torque figure is great for an everyday car because you’ll have good acceleration in pretty much any gear even from low revs and the car won’t feel bogged down. But ultimately for sustained performance, horsepower is king
your statement is not totally accurate since you can have engine with high torque figure where the peak torque comes at high revs, so it's actually the shape of the power band that matters. for example higly tuned big block honda vtec engine can make really nice torque figures but the torque peak comes at 5-6k rpms (vtec crossover), so in paper looks like it has a good amount of torque, but does not feel like it
Diesels technically have the advantage of torque, but since it depends on application and context, they excel at railway, marine and stationary applications.
I had this question in my head recently. And now I get this video recommended to me. It's nicely explained in detail. I always thought it's because lower rpm range, but there are more reasons for it.
in daily driving situations I really like diesels. It´s just nice to have more power in the lower RPM range. I wanted an affordable compact 4 seater coupe with RWD and medium power so I (obviously) went for a BMW 2 series. When I did some test driving the petrol version felt weak compared to the diesel because you had to rev it so high to get going while the diesel just went, no matter what gear you´re in. and the fuel economy is fantastic. the sound kinda sucks though
My thoughts exactly. I've had 2 Jaguars one was 3.0 litre petrol and now I've got a 2.7 diesel and yes technically the petrol has a faster 0-60 but in daily driving the diesel actually feels much faster it's very satisfying putting your foot down and going without having to downshift. So yeah they might not be the most exciting engines but for daily they work great
It would be interesting to see more race scenarios where diesels and gasoline engine are compared, like a hill climb and long vs short straights on a circuit.
You can ignore the calculated torque for specific rpm values. All that matters is power. And power is proportional to torque times rpm, so torque does not exist independently of power. The more power you can actually put on the road right from the start while maintaining traction, the better. The value of Mmax is just more of an indicator for the power available of an specific engine integrated over the its entire rev range. This area is often larger for diesel engines, so with eg a VW 1.9L TDI with Pmax= 150HP you have in most situation more POWER available than with a Pmax = 200HP naturally aspirated 2.0L Honda K20A engine.
Torque does not win races, power does. Torque can be amplified through the transmission ratio to any desired value, while power cannot. It's power that defines an engine, not torque.
@@2seep if that equation was correct, it would mean that depending the gear you're in, the engine is producing different amounts of power. But that's not the case. That equation is absolutely meaningless. What lucia is saying is, what makes a vehicle go fast is power and power only, it doesnt matter wheter you produce it with a low torque engine running at high rpm (think about an inline 4 600cc bike) or a high torque engine revving at low rpm (ofc additional considerations might be needed depending on the situation, for example if it's a 400m drag race the bike mentioned above is not ideal, because by the time it reaches high rpm in first gear, thus finally producing serious power, the race is probably over already)
I realized the same thing after playing around with beamng and automation. (engine) torque is very misleading, because it's wheel torque that makes the car goes forward. And transmission ratio is multiplied with engine torque to create wheel torque. While engine HP and wheel HP are just the same (minus friction losses), independent of your gear. A shorter geared petrol car could be just as fast of the line as diesel with same hp.
@@giovanniquargentan6198 The equation is correct. Depending on the gear you are in, you will have different amounts of torque and rpm delivered to the wheel. The higher the gear, the higher the rpm and the lower the torque, and vice versa. Everyone who ever drove a manual knows that.
@@giovanniquargentan6198The equation is correct. rpm here refers to engine rpm and torque and ho to engine torque and engine hp. So in fifth gear at 4000 rpm and full throttle the engine hp and engine torque will be the same as second gear at 4000 rpm and full throttle.
My answer, before watching the video: "If Torque wins races, why don't diesels": Because Torque doesn't win races. At least not alone. As long as there are gears, the car with the most Horsepower (Endpower)) will win. If a car has 1000nm max torque but only revs up to 2000rpm, it will not generate more horsepower than a car that has 300nm but revs up to 10,000rpm. Engine Torque is not equal to Wheel Torque. Through gears you can get enough torque to release and at high rpms, the car will gain more horsepower / kw.
I'll say it once and once only. When determining maximum acceleration performance of a vehicle, the maximum torque figure on its own is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS!
It's the area under the part of power curve that is used on each gear that win races. Torque is one part of power, rpm is the other. Peak torque number tells nothing but peak torque.
@@caiof8968 no, it's the area under the curve where x-axis is rpm and y is power. If I say the highest average power during acceleration wins, is it simply enough said?
@@djhrjeiwhri Not anywhere near the level of fuel consumption and power. Rotaries need either a lot more power or a lot more gears for the same acceleration as a heavier diesel because they are so peaky. The only Le man winning rotary was one of the slowest cars on the field while the diesels were still the fastest around even once the power and fuel consumption was lower than contemporary gasoline cars.
what i feel in everyday driving; power figure shows the threshold max performance level of the car. torque feels useful to reach/get to that max figure, and whenever partial throttle pedal applied.
I find my diesel has allowed me to overtake without changing down a gear. A lot of diesels have different gearboxes with shorter ratios that take advantage of low down grunt. This renders higher RPM changes useless for me personally, the car feels like she runs out of puff about 5k
I have a 6 speed 163hp 400Nm diesel, 5 speed 298hp 454Nm and 8 speed 350hp 510Nm petrol. Diesel pushes all the way uphill on a 100kph cruise with no gear shift, but other petrol cars don't. Certainly, there is less diesel stress in long-distance high-speed driving.
It's not just about peak power. Power band matters. If two engines are close in peak power, but one has significantly more peak torque, the one with more torque one will normally have a wider powerband. Which makes it look like torque wins races.
I learned that a diesel engine has no flamefront. Due to compression ignition which happens everywhere at once unlike from a single spark plug. The reason why diesels cant rev so high is that they need to be build much sturdier because of said compression ignition. So stronger pistons and rods made out of steel/cast iron. That is much heavier than the aluminum pistons you find in petrols. Hence you cant move up and down as fast without stuff breaking hence lower rpm.
Diesels also have lower rpm, because of them utilizing high compression to ignite the diesel fuel, so just think.. extremely high pressure in the cylinders fighting diesel fuel from even entering the chamber, hence It can only have so very few occurring cycles when its restricted from entering quickly into the chamber. Second, diesels typically have turbos in them, that helps them at lower rpms but chokes and restrict them at higher rpm. Third, gasoline is more refined than diesel. This makes gasoline thinner in density. So, gasoline burns faster as a result. less powerful but faster burning.
@@venelprince6889 Diesel fuel burns slower but contains more energy. On paper or at least in long and rigorous applications like running at high rpm constantly you want the engine to burn as little fuel as possible whilst taking advantage of the extra low end torque that a diesel provides. Slower revving engines do typically last longer than their high revving counterparts but that depends.
Diesels are also limmited in rpm because their Internals are build more chunky to accommodate more torque. Heavier internals mean it cant spin as quick cause the acceleration will turn the engine inside out.
The whole "torque wins races" generalisation is just wrong. If we take two cars one higher torque, the other higher power and give them both the perfect CVT transmission, zero loss, higher power will ALWAYS win. More energy transformed from chemical into kinetic energy per second (as power is energy per time). Now if they had one gear probably torque wins. Modern cars have automatic 8-10 speeds, putting them somewhere in between the two cases. It's an oversimplification that doesn't reflect reality.
Precisely. It is the energy being converted that generates the force, this is the key to understanding power vs torque. The diesels have more torque because they get all the hp with less rpm
"every racing series ever" bro really forgot the Audi TDI LMP1 cars that dominated for a decade 💀💀 and then the Peugeot diesels that weren't far behind
That was because of regulations tho. It was the diesel-craze back then and WEC wanted to give a playground for manufacturers to improve their diesel technology. The regs heavily favored diesels for example by allowing FAR bigger displacements than petrols.
The average performance during rev up matters. Aka work lol. Integral P(rev) d(rev). While P also a dependent of torque curve and rev. P=M*2pi*rev. Rev counts as much as torque on the performance side, morover counts on work done. Two for the rev one for the torque.
Thanks, very interesting, I already knew the difference between HP and torque but never really got why sporty diesels (BMW, Audi etc) where still not as fast 0-100 as performance petrol cars
Because they have less power and more weight. The current 340i has 34hp more than the diesel version while being 75kg lighter. Kept to the same power, weight or equalized fuel consumption by energy content the gasoline would loose.
2:05 the only time imperial units are actually good, all the other times, metric is a lot better… (torque HAS to be in nm though, just like anything else)
One way to try and explain it for "dummies" I found good was with boxing: Torque is how hard you can punch. Rpm is how many punches you can throw in a given a mount of time. Power be it in Kw or Hp is the resulting damage. So a boxer who is twice as strong as his opponent but the other guy is more than three times faster, the weaker guy will win.
This is the most clear cut explanation of torque and horsepower that I have ever seen. Kudos as well for the difference between PS and HP and finally on why Europe uses watts now to define an engines power output.
I made a video about the Audi TDI that everyone is commenting about: th-cam.com/video/7UBe-8w5QA0/w-d-xo.html All the comments seem to be experts so I hope you approve it
Torque wins races so long as the horsepower and weight are similar, gaving high torque means power is more accessible meaning your in the power band alot earlier and for longer, thats it. For straight line performance higher HP for sustained periods will always win again assuming weight are similar
That all was kinda wrong. The problem with the deasel is not that it can't rev high, you can always adjust that with gearing, it's more about its weight. Diesel engines deal with greater pressures and they need to be beefier than gas engines. They also produce more torque, which means they also need stronger and heavier shafts and gears in the drivetrain. And when you rotate something heavy, it has great rotational inertia, which also doesn't help winning races. That's why generally in a lightweight racecar it is prefered to make power by higher RPM, not with higher torque. Btw, as far as I remember, Audi made diesel work in Le Mans.
Not a scientist but my take on torque and hp is once the entire weight of the car is in motion no more torque is needed to keep accelerating other than the engine that can keep working at a faster rate (horsepower).
You're mostly correct. Horsepower is indeed what determines the ultimate acceleration and top speed potential. However, even for getting off the line, engine torque is still meaningless in theory, because any torque at the wheel can be provided given gearing. Just like the Archimedes quote: "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world"
tuned 1.9tdi are kinda fun to watch though. had the pleasure of flashing an old seat ibiza going hella slow in the fast lane, he dropped a gear and disappeared faster than i could say "what the actual fuck"
Power and torque are quite literally not on the same level, because POWER has TORQUE ALREADY taken into account, as per the equation, power = torque * rpm, so torque is on the same level as RPM, not power (engine) Torque can also be seen as how much "power" the engine makes/burns every engine cycle Wheel torque is different and is basically "real" torque to the wheels, which changes constantly, from 1st gear the torque is really high, then it keeps decreasing as the speed increases, while the engine torque is somewhat constant For example a 500 hp supercar has 500 ft lb torque, but makes 1500 ft lb torque in 1st gear, an obscure game MotorSim 3 shows this well
What wins races is not a horsepower, not a torque. It is wheel torque graph, because we can exactly see how torque is building up through gears. So even if we compare torque graph between 2 engines we are not considering the transmission ratios efficiency. And if we compare 2 engines with same horsepower and different torque, one with lower torque has higher redline. Also, for one of this two engines to win a race it is not important only the horsepower but how constant is the torque (not even the maximum value), this is considering the torque dips or spikes. So yeah, in real world horsepower is much more useful number than maximum torque in comparing the performance of the car but is not complete.
100 hp/50 nm at engine crank always win race against 50 hp/100 nm at wngine crank assuming both be on perfect gearing 👌🏻 more powerfull engine with less torq at pefect gearing always win race cos force at contact path which determined accelerstion level at set resist depend on power level at set speed and torq is 100% compnsate be rpm cos torq and rpms are only components vs power is output capability of engine assuming like im wrote it is conect with perfect gearing compare any the same car model with 2 diffrent engine where one version have more power vs other more torq in 99% of egzample more powerfull version have faster accelerstion time and top speed …☕️feg ferrari modena 1,5 tons 400 hp 373 nm 100% smoked vw golf gtd 1,5 tons 400 nm 200 hp on feg 1/4 mile drag strip royal enfield continental 535 gt 44 nm 29 hp be absolutely smoked be zx4 rr 39 nm 77 hp at drag strip , corevette or viper some version with 650 nm 400 hp be smoked be lexus lfa 470 nm 560 hp at dragstrip and so one 206 1,6 hdi 110 hp275 nm have no chance with 206 rc 177 hp 201 nm we can easy say power win races 😉defenitely not torq ☕️with this torq win race its only gay story it dosent work 🤭🤮☕️
I have a small bone to pick because of the relative position of the powerband between diesel engines and gasoline engines and the effects of gearing if you have a diesel and a gasoline vehicle with the exact same power output the and the same number of gears and the same top speed the relative powerband is significantly greater than with a gasoline engine even though the diesel might have a shorter absolute power band
@@myonen4402 That's not always true, you can shape the torque curve of a gasoline engine by using boost by rpm to make it match the torque curve of the diesel... to a point. There will be a point where the diesel can exceed the maximum BMEP of the gasoline engine, but that rarely happens.
@@myonen4402 Also, to match the BMEP of a gasoline engine, diesels require significantly more boost, which results in significantly more lag at the same BMEP. Edit: Moving more air also requires larger turbochargers, which means more rotating mass, which means more lag.
@@myonen4402 An interesting example in this case would be a comparison between a Nissan GT-R engine and a 430 hp Navistar S13. With 3.45 times the torque multiplication of the diesel, the Nissan engine can match the torque output of the diesel from idle until it starts to significantly exceed the torque output of the diesel at a certain point. In order to prevent the torque curve of the Nissan engine from exceeding that of the diesel, boost could simply be made to taper off at a certain point (at about 4,800 rpm).
Torque is just force, it can be easily manipulated through gearing. In first gear you can make more torque than a diesel while driving a gasoline car. You should have put a lever analogy in there, but the bike one (while not complete) was good enough touch I guess... The truth is, neither is good enough to win a race without the other, and neither of them is enough to win a race. Let me explain. Torque without power means no RPM, which means no speed (imagine a bulldozer or a tractor). Power without torque means no acceleration, which means, yes, you will have a higher top speed, but you will accelerate waaay too slow, but as I mentioned already, if you have a good enough gear ratio, you can manipulate torque easily, and still get good acceleration, while you cant get horsepower through gearing, your engine RPM is too limited. Now about the second half, and why neither of them are enough to win a race. Lets say you have a 1000hp and 1000Nm torque car, like a Dodge Challenger, and a Porsche 911... who will win a race on the track? If you think its going to be the Dodge, I'd suggest you go see a doctor or a psychologist. But why isnt the Dodge faster? Because to win a race, you don't need an engine.... you need a car, just like torque and horsepower are nothing without each other. An engine is nothing without a car, and a car is nothing without an engine. Its a matter of making the perfect combination of all the parts in a car to make a fast car on track... A powerful engine without a well balanced car around it won't make a fast lap... And vice versa, an extremely well balanced car, but with low horsepower, wont make a fast lap either. A Challenger makes a lap around the Nurburgring in 7:35 with 808hp and 960Nm torque. Then why is it a few seconds slower than a Porsche Cayman? Yes, the Porsche is lighter, but it has almost 2 times less hp than than the Dodge. Whoever said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" should go race with a bulldozer. Horsepower does not win races, torque does not win races, well designed cars with well designed engines win races, and this is why americans are still 15 years behind Europe and Japan when it comes to racecars. They can make powerful engines, but not fast cars. They only just managed to go sub 7 minutes with the Mustang GTD, well over a decade after Porsche, and two decades if we (unfairly) count Radical in this equation. Drag racing was invented just so they can focus on a engine, and disregard almost every other aspect of the car, its just too complicated for them (this is why Ford hired a Canadian/European company to make the suspension for the Mustang GTD, if they had to make it themselves, it would never go under the 7 minute mark) For everyone mentioning the Audi TDI, it won because it was more fuel efficient, it did not keep up with other cars because of pure speed, it just had less stops for fuel, and making a fuel efficient car isnt really "racing". This is why you have 1-2 examples of diesel cars winning a race next to a thousand gasoline cars, so shut up, this isnt a road trip by people conserned with fuel economy, this is racing.
what you gain in speed you lose in torque ,so that's why we need horsepower and not torque i drove an f10 530xd with 254hp and after 120 it was rubbish, the car was in perfect working condition ,but this what i have always encountered when driving diesel
" Torque gets you moving but horsepower keeps you moving" is bs. To accelerate you need toque at the wheel. The more hp you have, the more torque at the wheel you can have. Diesels are tuned for low rpm and need longer gearing to have a decent top speed. They pull hard at 2-3k rpm, but you won't be racing at 2-3k rpm. Up at 4k rpm torque is about half of their peak, and the petrol car will be in a lower gear all the time.
The torque is good but the powerband Dosent lean towards hp so you kinda of have to be in a lower rpm to take advantage of the speed and that’s not ideal for going all out on track. The powerband Although torquey isn’t wide like N.A. engines that can make decent torque down low but have better power bands up high
Torque does not win races, its horsepower. Torque is just a force thats apart of the equation for hp(torque*rpm/5252), torque honestly isnt too important as geared transmissions exist. A car with low torque but high hp can just make up the torque deficit through high rpm and the appropriate gear ratios. Think of any modern day f1 car for example, not alot of torque, but has high hp and rpm combined with many gears.
@@PistonAvatarGuyAnd the more advanced the transmission, the narrower the powerband can be. If we had perfect CVTs, only a few rpm would be suffice as a powerband. I think they even had CVTs in F1 for a while, and I think (might be wrong here) because they kept optimal rpm always, they were a lot faster.
@@cedricl.marquard6273 A CVT was tried in testing, but never raced. According to the team that had been testing the CVT, it was a promising technology, but it was never faster than the transmissions already in use at the time.
cos torque dont win race 👉🏻 m.th-cam.com/video/pbIx1SCA_nI/w-d-xo.html 2:23 viper 500 hp 711 nm vs 599 gtb 612 hp 609 nm yep camera is on 599 gtb 👌🏻 viper fast is small point in mirror 😎🌪️🍿 beside disel dosent make more torq well atleast those which are on market already comapre petrol turbo simialr dispalcement theyr similar 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻🍿
@@hrthrhs it is as long as you don't need to pay the price of fuel, or as long as you need to stop to refuel. Then having very good mpg just makes you driving long distances for cheap and without need to refuel as often.
i would always choose a 3.0 tdi v6 over turbo 4cyl petrol in any shape or form, (they usually make around the same hp) diesel will always overtake easier and go uphill loaded like it's nothing, while petrol counterpart would be struggling to do so, consuming twice as much fuel
The shifts aren't the problem. A diesel shifting at 4'800rpm will still make almost peak power at 4'000, with an 8 speed. Torque is just an imprecise term. We mention the torque at the crank. Torque times rpm is power. A diesel has more torque, but less max. rpm. Therefore it makes the same power as a gas car with less torque but a higher rev range. Then comes the transmission, the wheels etc. who change the ratio. Wheel hp at the end is what counts
@solidfuel0 That's why he said, " they diesel the entire run after 0.1 second " because there is no longer a spark plug from that moment and beyond, running off pure compression
@@justincharles6585yeah, I don’t understand how this could be remotely true, since top fuel dragsters aren’t direct injection motors. Certainly they would blow the motor every run from pre-ignition? And what any the burnout? That definitely lasts more than 0.1 seconds…
Well, this video is from Europe, so they have the Volvo iron knight over there that diesel Lorry/Semi truck will embarrass a lot of petrol/gasoline production cars on top speed.
In a stock gas vs disel engine comparison gas would win the race because gasoline engines makes a little bit lower torque in a longer rpm range than disels.
That’s not a good comparison. It’s torque vs rpm. Not torque vs horsepower. Torque is how hard you can hit, rpm is how fast you can hit, and horsepower is the total damage.
@@2seepYes. Horsepower is basically work over time, and rpm is how fast you hit something, but torque is how hard you hit that object as you said yourself.
Because anything that has horsepower and uses rotation to move has torque, and the measure of the rate that you'd be able to produce motion is horsepower. Power = rate of work Work = force X distance (implies motion because of distance)
@@AndreasPetersen1 A decently detailed car engine designer and vehicle simulator. Has a few career gameplay mechanics that you can side step, sandbox offers a nice level of detail. More casual than designing and writing code for beamng engines/cars. It’s fun to play with stroke and sizes, compression, and see the power outputs.
+1 to that. I've spent 150 hours in automation this year just building engines and cars in sandbox. Since it's based on math, everything comes out to pretty realistic numbers compared to the real stuff (to a point, of course)
@@shutu6338 In theory it might, since the CVT is supposed to take full advantage of the engine's peak power at peak rpm. However, given how flawed the CVT is and how often it experiences mechanical failure, such performance would sound excellent on paper.
No, it would only widen the margin in favor of petrol. Diesel are faster because they deliver more power over a wider range of the torque band, while gas engines are very peaky, delivering peak power on a very small band. A cvt allows the gas to stay with this band, negating the advantage of the diesel
@@ego4551 Makes sense. The original comment was curious about using a CVT for a diesel engine despite the inherent flaws and issues with CVTs. They're great on paper but those gearboxes are underwhelming in practice.
Hi everyone, thanks for watching and engaging with the video! I wanted to take a moment to address some great points raised in the comments regarding torque, power, and engine performance.
First, I may have oversimplified the relationship between torque and horsepower in the script. Here’s a more accurate explanation: Torque and RPM combine to produce power, and it’s the power being delivered to the wheels that ultimately determines acceleration and performance. Torque at low RPM helps with initial acceleration, but the powerband (usable power across the RPM range) is what really matters in most driving and racing scenarios.
For example, a diesel engine often has a broader powerband, which can make it feel more powerful in everyday driving or towing. But petrol engines, with their higher RPM limits, tend to excel in high-speed and racing applications because they can sustain power at higher speeds.
I also want to clarify the bike analogy in the video-it may have been misleading. My intention wasn’t to describe the torque output at the crank in different gears but rather to illustrate the force you have to apply with your foot on the pedals. In hindsight, this analogy could have been clearer, and I appreciate those of you who pointed this out.
Lastly, focusing solely on peak torque (Mmax) without considering power across the rev range can be misleading. It’s the area under the curve that defines how an engine performs in different situations.
I truly appreciate the constructive feedback-it’s helped me see where I can improve future explanations. Thanks for keeping me honest, and I’m sorry if any oversights in the video caused confusion. Let’s keep learning together!
May as well stop @PistonAvatarGuy from commenting as he spreads misinformation about diesels and uses backwards logic to reinforce the flawed viewpoints. Diesels were a force to be reckoned with in heavy duty applications, so he's clearly biased towards gasoline. Not saying that to be rude or disrespectful, but people like him can't go around lying or misleading everyone else.
For everyone saying Audi TDI and lemans, remember those are 24h endurance races, where fuel consumption and keeping the engine alive helps win the races more than the pushing it all the time
The R18 did have great performance to complement its low fuel consumption though. The fact that torque was all down low made it extremely fast on corner exits without the need to downshift and eliminated the need of a sixth gear
The rules were literally structured to ensure that it was faster than the gasoline burning cars.
This isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison. Different rules…With equal regulations, the diesel does not stand a chance.
Feel free to think of it as 2 different classifications riding together. Even if they try to use regulations to bring these 2 as close together as possible.
Not true the r10 TDI was neutered by the Le Mans rules. They had the same maximum displacement, and the same maximum HP, but their fuel cell was restricted in size in comparison to their gasoline compatriots. Also this was before dieselgate and they ran with full emissions compliance for the time. As someone who has driven and tuned both I can assure you that a 300 HP diesel and a 300 HP gasser are both a crap load of fun in the right circumstances.
@myonen4402 To make up for any deficit that the diesels might have had, they were initially allowed to be much larger than the turbocharged gasoline engines. The diesels were allowed to be nearly twice as large as the turbocharged gasoline engines.
The diesels didn't run with full emissions controls, they only used a DPF. Apparently, Audi initially did this of their own accord. In 2014, VAG was forced to issue a recall on their diesel products, due to noncompliance with emissions regulations. This recall was the beginning of the Dieselgate scandal and the same year that it was done was also the last year that a diesel would win at Le Mans.
Yes, the smaller fuel cell finally put an end to the reign of the diesels, but they were still allowed to be significantly larger in displacement than their gasoline competitors. IMO, it's extremely unfortunate that the FIA, chose to restrict the diesels in this way, it would have been far more interesting if they had allowed the cars the same amount of energy and the same amount of displacement. If that had happened, I would bet that the diesels still would have been thoroughly beaten, just as they are in every other form of racing on Earth.
Still, I think that the FIA wanted a more decisive way to push diesels out of the racing series, as it had become clear that diesel engines weren't the clean alternative to gasoline engines that they had been purported to be.
My son on his tricycle defeated my neighbor in his bulldozer.
a human athlete will beat a formula 1 in the first meters
That's cap for sure, F1 cars nah, if u had said a car like a dodge that looses traction it would have been accepted but F1 no chance@@mehdih8165
@@mehdih8165maybe 3 meters too 🤣
@@mehdih8165i think u took a bit too far
Yeah but you forgot that diesel engines are super heavy as it's very reinforced (because of the enormous torque/energi they produce), so that's another reason why they don't rev high
That is certainly a factor, but main reason diesels don’t rev high is because of fuel flow. These days even direct-injection petrol motors can struggle to perform at high RPM and high power, so that becomes even more of a struggle with the higher cylinder pressure of a diesel fighting against the injection system.
ev are even heavier
@@lansiman not the car, but engine, the more heavy something is, the more stress it's going to experience while moving, especially in faster speeds
@@youbous4572 actually no, although diesel has more torque than petrol engine, EV motor has even more torque, right from 0 rpm, and EV typically has gazillion horsepower
@@lansimanThe torque curve drops off dramatically as RPM increases so that gazillion horsepower is not available at high speed -- a 500 HP gasoline powered Mustang can outrun a Tesla over 80 mph (where the Mustang's natural tendency to seek and destroy crowds is disabled).
There's more misinformation about it online than anything else.
If anyone trying to explain it did a simple calculation for force (N) at the wheels, they would see that torque is basically meaningless once you use this thing called "transmission" and only pure horsepower makes a difference.
Or that high torque at low rpm just means hogher hp at low rpm.
I'm too dumb to understand if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the video
@ShortShortsfromreddit Kind of Agreeing.
This video is decent, because it points out obvious mistakes made by others, but it's not quite there yet.
I think it has to do with the fact, that everyone is looking for some deeper meaning behind those numbers, because "there is a reason why manufacturers quote them, right?". Even this video made some questionable assumptions with "gets you going" and "keeps you moving".
Torque is just a part of horsepower and it's linearly related. The only thing is that there are two variables (torque and rpm) changing simultaneously.
You're absolutely right! Thanks for the kind words and the good criticism
Torque isn't meaningless.... as its part of what gives you the total horsepower number. Horsepower = torque X rpm divided by 5252. This means in order to get higher hp numbers, you should have higher torque numbers too. Working with low torque numbers, means you have to make up for it with REALLY HIGH rpm numbers. Theres no free lunch in this universe, a transmission isn't going to magically give you greater torque without taking away your total rpm's at the same time. Say a transmission doubles your torque using a ratio of 2/1. Guess what? It will also cut your total revolutions per minute in half at the same time. This means a diesel that makes 400 lb. ft of torque at 2000 rpm would be better than a gas engine that makes 200 lb. ft of torque at the same 2000 rpm, because when the transmission doubles the gas engines torque to 400 lb. ft matching the diesels torque, it will also be spinning at HALF THE SPEED, SLOWER THAN THE DIESEL.
I agree only pure horsepower makes a difference, in which torque and engine rpms are factored in equally.
Saying torque is meaningless, Is the same as saying length is meaningless when finding the area of a rectangle. When finding the area of a rectangle of course, one must multiple length X width. In order to find horsepower you must do almost the same multiplying torque X rpm and then dividing by 5252 after.
And yes, high torque at low rpm just means higher hp at low rpm, I ain't arguing against that, agree 100%.
@@venelprince6889The amount of torque an engine makes is basically meaningless as a way to compare performance.
Oh, torque wins races, huh? Then why aren’t all the winners chugging black smoke in a diesel dragster? Here’s the deal: torque is part of the equation, sure. Diesels have mountains of it-like, rip-a-house-off-its-foundation levels. But horsepower is what seals the deal at high speeds.
Horsepower is torque with a clock on it. It’s about how quickly you can apply all that twisty force. Diesels, while torquey as hell, tend to hit their peak power at lower RPMs and then, well, they run out of breath. Gas engines? They scream. They keep making power at higher revs, which is what you need when you’re gunning for the finish line.
Also, diesels are heavy. You’re not exactly nimble with a tank under the hood. Weight kills speed. So yeah, torque gets you moving, but horsepower keeps you ahead. And that’s why diesel ain’t stealing the checkered flag.
Spark-ignited engines are capable of making more torque than diesels, it's just that they need more exotic fuels to get into the higher range of their maximum torque output potential.
NA gasoline engines just inherently make more torque than diesels.
@@PistonAvatarGuy Diesels typically have more low-end pulling power either way. Plus they're more fuel efficient and the diesel fuel burns with more energy, just at a slow rate.
@@TheSilverShadow17 To properly explain this, I'd have to practically write a novel, so...
Why do EcoBoost V6s perform so much better while towing when compared to 3 liter diesels, then?
@@PistonAvatarGuy I wasn't implying the use of Ecoboost V6s but ok. I was looking at it from a typical semi truck and locomotive perspective where those machines are so heavy that a gas engine would be overstressed from the weight. Besides, it sounds like the diesel engine should of never been invented in the first place, I take it?
@@TheSilverShadow17 But I'm using the Ecoboost as an example, as they clearly perform far better than diesels of a similar size. Why is that?
Gasoline engines would work just fine in any heavy application and spark ignited engines can be used in those applications. In fact, there are many engines in ships and power plants that use spark-ignition and run on natural gas, while locomotives can also use natural gas in combination with diesel (they use just enough diesel to start the ignition process). Natural gas engines are better than diesels in almost every way possible and are far more widely used as reciprocating power plant engines than diesels. Natural gasoline engines aren't even as strong as gasoline engines, yet they still get used in heavy applications.
bros channel is named andreas and he sits in his kitchen delivering absolute gold in 6mins what a chad
zero bs
The saying came from a time when even race cars had 4 gears. High torque means that the horsepower curve is more spread out. This means that with fewer gears, high torque means a higher effective power. Having a useful rev range of less than 1000 rpms is only useful if you have 6 or more gears
Yup. If we assume one gear, diesels will have far higher torque and thus hp at lower rpm, in which a lot of time will be spent. But modern cars have 8-10 gears.
They're able to get really close to cvts, concerning optimal rev range.
And if now the gasoline engine can always be kept at its peak rpm of 4500-5500 rpm, it really doesn't matter that at 3000 it doesn't have any power.
A high torque figure is great for an everyday car because you’ll have good acceleration in pretty much any gear even from low revs and the car won’t feel bogged down.
But ultimately for sustained performance, horsepower is king
If the engine is turbo then it doesn't really have power from low rpm
your statement is not totally accurate since you can have engine with high torque figure where the peak torque comes at high revs, so it's actually the shape of the power band that matters. for example higly tuned big block honda vtec engine can make really nice torque figures but the torque peak comes at 5-6k rpms (vtec crossover), so in paper looks like it has a good amount of torque, but does not feel like it
@@tuuchen2990 yeah my comment was just kind of assuming it’s a car with forced induction
Diesels technically have the advantage of torque, but since it depends on application and context, they excel at railway, marine and stationary applications.
I had this question in my head recently. And now I get this video recommended to me. It's nicely explained in detail. I always thought it's because lower rpm range, but there are more reasons for it.
I'm going to shamelessly plugg my latest video, where I go into one of the times that a diesel dominated in races
Great video that packs a lot of info into only 5 min! Most of the people commenting sound like they haven't watched it all the way through
pill-sized yet concentrated content. perfect for showering to, you just got a new sub
in daily driving situations I really like diesels. It´s just nice to have more power in the lower RPM range. I wanted an affordable compact 4 seater coupe with RWD and medium power so I (obviously) went for a BMW 2 series. When I did some test driving the petrol version felt weak compared to the diesel because you had to rev it so high to get going while the diesel just went, no matter what gear you´re in. and the fuel economy is fantastic. the sound kinda sucks though
My thoughts exactly. I've had 2 Jaguars one was 3.0 litre petrol and now I've got a 2.7 diesel and yes technically the petrol has a faster 0-60 but in daily driving the diesel actually feels much faster it's very satisfying putting your foot down and going without having to downshift. So yeah they might not be the most exciting engines but for daily they work great
your videos are pretty interesting. Keep going! would love to see more content!
Thanks for this easy explanation! This isn't easy to understand if you didn't study engineering, but you made it.
Congrats, and keep going! 👏🏻 👏🏻
In Germany, a BMW 130d is dominating the streetcar Drag scene with an 8.8s time on the quarter mile.
@@LyrischerLucas It has a 3.0 liter 6 cylinder, that's not very impressive at all.
No that’d be twin turbo audi R8.
In America 8's is every other nerped out f150. 😂
The biggest diesel engine, BMW 1 series came with, is the 123d
@ yeah, they swapped it
It would be interesting to see more race scenarios where diesels and gasoline engine are compared, like a hill climb and long vs short straights on a circuit.
You can ignore the calculated torque for specific rpm values. All that matters is power. And power is proportional to torque times rpm, so torque does not exist independently of power. The more power you can actually put on the road right from the start while maintaining traction, the better. The value of Mmax is just more of an indicator for the power available of an specific engine integrated over the its entire rev range. This area is often larger for diesel engines, so with eg a VW 1.9L TDI with Pmax= 150HP you have in most situation more POWER available than with a Pmax = 200HP naturally aspirated 2.0L Honda K20A engine.
What a great and easy to follow explanation!
Torque does not win races, power does. Torque can be amplified through the transmission ratio to any desired value, while power cannot. It's power that defines an engine, not torque.
You mean rpm? Hp= torque x rpm/5252.
@@2seep if that equation was correct, it would mean that depending the gear you're in, the engine is producing different amounts of power. But that's not the case. That equation is absolutely meaningless. What lucia is saying is, what makes a vehicle go fast is power and power only, it doesnt matter wheter you produce it with a low torque engine running at high rpm (think about an inline 4 600cc bike) or a high torque engine revving at low rpm (ofc additional considerations might be needed depending on the situation, for example if it's a 400m drag race the bike mentioned above is not ideal, because by the time it reaches high rpm in first gear, thus finally producing serious power, the race is probably over already)
I realized the same thing after playing around with beamng and automation. (engine) torque is very misleading, because it's wheel torque that makes the car goes forward. And transmission ratio is multiplied with engine torque to create wheel torque. While engine HP and wheel HP are just the same (minus friction losses), independent of your gear. A shorter geared petrol car could be just as fast of the line as diesel with same hp.
@@giovanniquargentan6198
The equation is correct. Depending on the gear you are in, you will have different amounts of torque and rpm delivered to the wheel. The higher the gear, the higher the rpm and the lower the torque, and vice versa. Everyone who ever drove a manual knows that.
@@giovanniquargentan6198The equation is correct. rpm here refers to engine rpm and torque and ho to engine torque and engine hp. So in fifth gear at 4000 rpm and full throttle the engine hp and engine torque will be the same as second gear at 4000 rpm and full throttle.
Thx for explanation, one fo the best i seen. Followed!
My answer, before watching the video: "If Torque wins races, why don't diesels": Because Torque doesn't win races. At least not alone. As long as there are gears, the car with the most Horsepower (Endpower)) will win. If a car has 1000nm max torque but only revs up to 2000rpm, it will not generate more horsepower than a car that has 300nm but revs up to 10,000rpm. Engine Torque is not equal to Wheel Torque. Through gears you can get enough torque to release and at high rpms, the car will gain more horsepower / kw.
Love to read someone who understands this
I'll say it once and once only. When determining maximum acceleration performance of a vehicle, the maximum torque figure on its own is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS!
It's the area under the part of power curve that is used on each gear that win races. Torque is one part of power, rpm is the other. Peak torque number tells nothing but peak torque.
So... you mean the integral
@@v12-s65 Yes!
You mean area under the torque and rpm curve, which is power
@@caiof8968 no, it's the area under the curve where x-axis is rpm and y is power. If I say the highest average power during acceleration wins, is it simply enough said?
great video man, no clown stuff, to the point and accurate. Hope youtube was more like this 👍
Great analogy about the bike
Le Mann 24 hour winners on pure pace:
Peugeot 908 HDi 🥇
Audi R10 TDi 🥇
Audi R18 TDi 🥇
wondering if mazda compete with torqueless rotary engine vs those diesels
@@djhrjeiwhri Not anywhere near the level of fuel consumption and power. Rotaries need either a lot more power or a lot more gears for the same acceleration as a heavier diesel because they are so peaky. The only Le man winning rotary was one of the slowest cars on the field while the diesels were still the fastest around even once the power and fuel consumption was lower than contemporary gasoline cars.
@@ego4551 excuses,,, excuses
It’s an ENDURANCE race
@@ego4551 and?
what i feel in everyday driving; power figure shows the threshold max performance level of the car. torque feels useful to reach/get to that max figure, and whenever partial throttle pedal applied.
Sick video. Thanks bro!
I find my diesel has allowed me to overtake without changing down a gear. A lot of diesels have different gearboxes with shorter ratios that take advantage of low down grunt. This renders higher RPM changes useless for me personally, the car feels like she runs out of puff about 5k
I have a 6 speed 163hp 400Nm diesel, 5 speed 298hp 454Nm and 8 speed 350hp 510Nm petrol.
Diesel pushes all the way uphill on a 100kph cruise with no gear shift, but other petrol cars don't.
Certainly, there is less diesel stress in long-distance high-speed driving.
@@y_h110 Just don't let that arrogant PistonAvatarGuy tell you otherwise. Instant report if you hear any nonsense.
Very useful explanation ❤
It's not just about peak power. Power band matters.
If two engines are close in peak power, but one has significantly more peak torque, the one with more torque one will normally have a wider powerband. Which makes it look like torque wins races.
0.2% subscribed is crazy, +1 sub, I feel bad for you
nah the pity sub is crazy 😭😭
@@HeyLookItsThatGuy I'm gonna pity sub too 😢
I learned that a diesel engine has no flamefront. Due to compression ignition which happens everywhere at once unlike from a single spark plug. The reason why diesels cant rev so high is that they need to be build much sturdier because of said compression ignition. So stronger pistons and rods made out of steel/cast iron. That is much heavier than the aluminum pistons you find in petrols. Hence you cant move up and down as fast without stuff breaking hence lower rpm.
I may get details wrong from time to time, but that's better than being overall wrong, like the people who criticize me.
@@PistonAvatarGuy okay ahm yeah. Why are you telling me that?
Diesels also have lower rpm, because of them utilizing high compression to ignite the diesel fuel, so just think.. extremely high pressure in the cylinders fighting diesel fuel from even entering the chamber, hence It can only have so very few occurring cycles when its restricted from entering quickly into the chamber. Second, diesels typically have turbos in them, that helps them at lower rpms but chokes and restrict them at higher rpm. Third, gasoline is more refined than diesel. This makes gasoline thinner in density. So, gasoline burns faster as a result. less powerful but faster burning.
@@venelprince6889 Diesel fuel burns slower but contains more energy. On paper or at least in long and rigorous applications like running at high rpm constantly you want the engine to burn as little fuel as possible whilst taking advantage of the extra low end torque that a diesel provides. Slower revving engines do typically last longer than their high revving counterparts but that depends.
Because the saying is dumb and wrong. Power wins races not torque.
12th grade physics revised after so many years. Almost forgot those formulas
I didn't notice u are a small youtuber until u said "get me to 10k and i'll build a turbo civic"... I wanna see this!!!
Good explanation 😊
Well because diesels don't make as much horsepower and horsepower is ultimately what determines how quickly work gets done, diesels are also heavier.
Then again diesels were designed to be workhorses and get jobs done like towing.
Diesels are also limmited in rpm because their Internals are build more chunky to accommodate more torque. Heavier internals mean it cant spin as quick cause the acceleration will turn the engine inside out.
The whole "torque wins races" generalisation is just wrong.
If we take two cars one higher torque, the other higher power and give them both the perfect CVT transmission, zero loss, higher power will ALWAYS win.
More energy transformed from chemical into kinetic energy per second (as power is energy per time).
Now if they had one gear probably torque wins.
Modern cars have automatic 8-10 speeds, putting them somewhere in between the two cases.
It's an oversimplification that doesn't reflect reality.
Precisely. It is the energy being converted that generates the force, this is the key to understanding power vs torque. The diesels have more torque because they get all the hp with less rpm
"every racing series ever" bro really forgot the Audi TDI LMP1 cars that dominated for a decade 💀💀 and then the Peugeot diesels that weren't far behind
That was because of regulations tho. It was the diesel-craze back then and WEC wanted to give a playground for manufacturers to improve their diesel technology. The regs heavily favored diesels for example by allowing FAR bigger displacements than petrols.
wondering if mazda compete with torqueless rotary engine vs those diesels
The average performance during rev up matters. Aka work lol. Integral P(rev) d(rev). While P also a dependent of torque curve and rev. P=M*2pi*rev. Rev counts as much as torque on the performance side, morover counts on work done. Two for the rev one for the torque.
Thanks, very interesting, I already knew the difference between HP and torque but never really got why sporty diesels (BMW, Audi etc) where still not as fast 0-100 as performance petrol cars
Because they have less power and more weight. The current 340i has 34hp more than the diesel version while being 75kg lighter. Kept to the same power, weight or equalized fuel consumption by energy content the gasoline would loose.
Banger video mannen
because they fly apart at like 6k rpm. Its a different engine for a different application.
2:05 the only time imperial units are actually good, all the other times, metric is a lot better…
(torque HAS to be in nm though, just like anything else)
The limiter cuts the torque later in the band as the forces get to high at higher revs
In Germany we have a BMW 1 series by AS Performance xdrive swap destroying every drag race rn with a diesel
The saying is "Americans buy horsepower(figure), but drive torque" - Bob Lutz.
One way to try and explain it for "dummies" I found good was with boxing:
Torque is how hard you can punch.
Rpm is how many punches you can throw in a given a mount of time.
Power be it in Kw or Hp is the resulting damage.
So a boxer who is twice as strong as his opponent but the other guy is more than three times faster, the weaker guy will win.
This is the most clear cut explanation of torque and horsepower that I have ever seen.
Kudos as well for the difference between PS and HP and finally on why Europe uses watts now to define an engines power output.
I totally agree , very well explained
I made a video about the Audi TDI that everyone is commenting about: th-cam.com/video/7UBe-8w5QA0/w-d-xo.html
All the comments seem to be experts so I hope you approve it
It's more efficient and more drivable at low speeds. So it has its own positives
That was a nice video
Just imagine what it means if 2 cars have the same torque in stats but one of them has 2x more hp.
Torque wins races so long as the horsepower and weight are similar, gaving high torque means power is more accessible meaning your in the power band alot earlier and for longer, thats it. For straight line performance higher HP for sustained periods will always win again assuming weight are similar
Because wheel torque per unit weight is what wins races and diesels only transmit more wheel torque at the bottom end of the powerband.
That all was kinda wrong. The problem with the deasel is not that it can't rev high, you can always adjust that with gearing, it's more about its weight. Diesel engines deal with greater pressures and they need to be beefier than gas engines. They also produce more torque, which means they also need stronger and heavier shafts and gears in the drivetrain. And when you rotate something heavy, it has great rotational inertia, which also doesn't help winning races. That's why generally in a lightweight racecar it is prefered to make power by higher RPM, not with higher torque.
Btw, as far as I remember, Audi made diesel work in Le Mans.
I have a 1998 vw Jetta 1z TDI it's got the torque but it revs slowly even as a overhead cam engine I can't imagine how slowly a pushrod diesel revs
Not a scientist but my take on torque and hp is once the entire weight of the car is in motion no more torque is needed to keep accelerating other than the engine that can keep working at a faster rate (horsepower).
You're mostly correct. Horsepower is indeed what determines the ultimate acceleration and top speed potential. However, even for getting off the line, engine torque is still meaningless in theory, because any torque at the wheel can be provided given gearing. Just like the Archimedes quote:
"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world"
tuned 1.9tdi are kinda fun to watch though. had the pleasure of flashing an old seat ibiza going hella slow in the fast lane, he dropped a gear and disappeared faster than i could say "what the actual fuck"
Power and torque are quite literally not on the same level, because POWER has TORQUE ALREADY taken into account, as per the equation, power = torque * rpm, so torque is on the same level as RPM, not power
(engine) Torque can also be seen as how much "power" the engine makes/burns every engine cycle
Wheel torque is different and is basically "real" torque to the wheels, which changes constantly, from 1st gear the torque is really high, then it keeps decreasing as the speed increases, while the engine torque is somewhat constant
For example a 500 hp supercar has 500 ft lb torque, but makes 1500 ft lb torque in 1st gear, an obscure game MotorSim 3 shows this well
Man the stats at the end makes me sad! I'm waiting for that Honda build.
the actual pulling force from a big horse is around 5,5-5,7 hp :)
What wins races is not a horsepower, not a torque. It is wheel torque graph, because we can exactly see how torque is building up through gears. So even if we compare torque graph between 2 engines we are not considering the transmission ratios efficiency. And if we compare 2 engines with same horsepower and different torque, one with lower torque has higher redline. Also, for one of this two engines to win a race it is not important only the horsepower but how constant is the torque (not even the maximum value), this is considering the torque dips or spikes. So yeah, in real world horsepower is much more useful number than maximum torque in comparing the performance of the car but is not complete.
100 hp/50 nm at engine crank always win race against 50 hp/100 nm at wngine crank assuming both be on perfect gearing 👌🏻 more powerfull engine with less torq at pefect gearing always win race cos force at contact path which determined accelerstion level at set resist depend on power level at set speed and torq is 100% compnsate be rpm cos torq and rpms are only components vs power is output capability of engine assuming like im wrote it is conect with perfect gearing compare any the same car model with 2 diffrent engine where one version have more power vs other more torq in 99% of egzample more powerfull version have faster accelerstion time and top speed …☕️feg ferrari modena 1,5 tons 400 hp 373 nm 100% smoked vw golf gtd 1,5 tons 400 nm 200 hp on feg 1/4 mile drag strip royal enfield continental 535 gt 44 nm 29 hp be absolutely smoked be zx4 rr 39 nm 77 hp at drag strip , corevette or viper some version with 650 nm 400 hp be smoked be lexus lfa 470 nm 560 hp at dragstrip and so one 206 1,6 hdi 110 hp275 nm have no chance with 206 rc 177 hp 201 nm we can easy say power win races 😉defenitely not torq ☕️with this torq win race its only gay story it dosent work 🤭🤮☕️
I have a small bone to pick because of the relative position of the powerband between diesel engines and gasoline engines and the effects of gearing if you have a diesel and a gasoline vehicle with the exact same power output the and the same number of gears and the same top speed the relative powerband is significantly greater than with a gasoline engine even though the diesel might have a shorter absolute power band
@@myonen4402 That's not always true, you can shape the torque curve of a gasoline engine by using boost by rpm to make it match the torque curve of the diesel... to a point. There will be a point where the diesel can exceed the maximum BMEP of the gasoline engine, but that rarely happens.
@@myonen4402 Also, to match the BMEP of a gasoline engine, diesels require significantly more boost, which results in significantly more lag at the same BMEP.
Edit: Moving more air also requires larger turbochargers, which means more rotating mass, which means more lag.
@@myonen4402 An interesting example in this case would be a comparison between a Nissan GT-R engine and a 430 hp Navistar S13. With 3.45 times the torque multiplication of the diesel, the Nissan engine can match the torque output of the diesel from idle until it starts to significantly exceed the torque output of the diesel at a certain point. In order to prevent the torque curve of the Nissan engine from exceeding that of the diesel, boost could simply be made to taper off at a certain point (at about 4,800 rpm).
0:11 arlight, bye!😂
ive only ever had diesels, most of them were wagons (like a 2013 opel insignia sports tourer)
Torque is just force, it can be easily manipulated through gearing.
In first gear you can make more torque than a diesel while driving a gasoline car.
You should have put a lever analogy in there, but the bike one (while not complete) was good enough touch I guess...
The truth is, neither is good enough to win a race without the other, and neither of them is enough to win a race.
Let me explain. Torque without power means no RPM, which means no speed (imagine a bulldozer or a tractor). Power without torque means no acceleration, which means, yes, you will have a higher top speed, but you will accelerate waaay too slow, but as I mentioned already, if you have a good enough gear ratio, you can manipulate torque easily, and still get good acceleration, while you cant get horsepower through gearing, your engine RPM is too limited.
Now about the second half, and why neither of them are enough to win a race.
Lets say you have a 1000hp and 1000Nm torque car, like a Dodge Challenger, and a Porsche 911... who will win a race on the track? If you think its going to be the Dodge, I'd suggest you go see a doctor or a psychologist. But why isnt the Dodge faster? Because to win a race, you don't need an engine.... you need a car, just like torque and horsepower are nothing without each other. An engine is nothing without a car, and a car is nothing without an engine. Its a matter of making the perfect combination of all the parts in a car to make a fast car on track... A powerful engine without a well balanced car around it won't make a fast lap... And vice versa, an extremely well balanced car, but with low horsepower, wont make a fast lap either.
A Challenger makes a lap around the Nurburgring in 7:35 with 808hp and 960Nm torque. Then why is it a few seconds slower than a Porsche Cayman? Yes, the Porsche is lighter, but it has almost 2 times less hp than than the Dodge. Whoever said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" should go race with a bulldozer. Horsepower does not win races, torque does not win races, well designed cars with well designed engines win races, and this is why americans are still 15 years behind Europe and Japan when it comes to racecars. They can make powerful engines, but not fast cars. They only just managed to go sub 7 minutes with the Mustang GTD, well over a decade after Porsche, and two decades if we (unfairly) count Radical in this equation. Drag racing was invented just so they can focus on a engine, and disregard almost every other aspect of the car, its just too complicated for them (this is why Ford hired a Canadian/European company to make the suspension for the Mustang GTD, if they had to make it themselves, it would never go under the 7 minute mark)
For everyone mentioning the Audi TDI, it won because it was more fuel efficient, it did not keep up with other cars because of pure speed, it just had less stops for fuel, and making a fuel efficient car isnt really "racing". This is why you have 1-2 examples of diesel cars winning a race next to a thousand gasoline cars, so shut up, this isnt a road trip by people conserned with fuel economy, this is racing.
what you gain in speed you lose in torque ,so that's why we need horsepower and not torque
i drove an f10 530xd with 254hp and after 120 it was rubbish, the car was in perfect working condition ,but this what i have always encountered when driving diesel
" Torque gets you moving but horsepower keeps you moving" is bs. To accelerate you need toque at the wheel. The more hp you have, the more torque at the wheel you can have. Diesels are tuned for low rpm and need longer gearing to have a decent top speed. They pull hard at 2-3k rpm, but you won't be racing at 2-3k rpm. Up at 4k rpm torque is about half of their peak, and the petrol car will be in a lower gear all the time.
Go to South East Asian countries bro, we all love diesel drag race.
So... Can you explain me why i’m faster than a Ford mustang 317hp whith my BMW 4 series with 320 hp, even at high speed ? 🤔
Germans are better at making cars
Long story short: torque doesnt win races
Torque gets you off the line quicker so the shorter the race, the more advantage to higher torque cars.
I keep hearing "onions" instead of "engines" ^^'
The torque is good but the powerband Dosent lean towards hp so you kinda of have to be in a lower rpm to take advantage of the speed and that’s not ideal for going all out on track. The powerband Although torquey isn’t wide like N.A. engines that can make decent torque down low but have better power bands up high
Do you guys think that Tesla Roadster could potentially beat an actual dragster?
Against a Top Fuel dragster? No way in hell. Those things would eat that Tesla alive as fast as that thing would hit 100 mph.
@TheSilverShadow17 makes sense
Because wheel torque is real torque
Torque does not win races, its horsepower. Torque is just a force thats apart of the equation for hp(torque*rpm/5252), torque honestly isnt too important as geared transmissions exist. A car with low torque but high hp can just make up the torque deficit through high rpm and the appropriate gear ratios. Think of any modern day f1 car for example, not alot of torque, but has high hp and rpm combined with many gears.
Wide power bands win races, not torque.
@@PistonAvatarGuy yea exactly
@@PistonAvatarGuyAnd the more advanced the transmission, the narrower the powerband can be.
If we had perfect CVTs, only a few rpm would be suffice as a powerband.
I think they even had CVTs in F1 for a while, and I think (might be wrong here) because they kept optimal rpm always, they were a lot faster.
@@cedricl.marquard6273 A CVT was tried in testing, but never raced. According to the team that had been testing the CVT, it was a promising technology, but it was never faster than the transmissions already in use at the time.
@PistonAvatarGuy Ah ok. Thanks.
diesel may have more torque but it also has taller gears, because it cannot spin as fast. So it has worser leverage than more revvy engines.
cos torque dont win race 👉🏻 m.th-cam.com/video/pbIx1SCA_nI/w-d-xo.html 2:23 viper 500 hp 711 nm vs 599 gtb 612 hp 609 nm yep camera is on 599 gtb 👌🏻 viper fast is small point in mirror 😎🌪️🍿 beside disel dosent make more torq well atleast those which are on market already comapre petrol turbo simialr dispalcement theyr similar 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻🍿
Yeah but atleast you get good mpg
That is the lamest feature to be proud of.
Another feature is being able to tow and pull heavy trailers. That's why diesels are the workhorses for heavy duty applications.
@@hrthrhs it is as long as you don't need to pay the price of fuel, or as long as you need to stop to refuel. Then having very good mpg just makes you driving long distances for cheap and without need to refuel as often.
i would always choose a 3.0 tdi v6 over turbo 4cyl petrol in any shape or form, (they usually make around the same hp) diesel will always overtake easier and go uphill loaded like it's nothing, while petrol counterpart would be struggling to do so, consuming twice as much fuel
So what about a diesel with a cvt that keeps it in the perfect rpm range all the time?
The shifts aren't the problem. A diesel shifting at 4'800rpm will still make almost peak power at 4'000, with an 8 speed.
Torque is just an imprecise term. We mention the torque at the crank. Torque times rpm is power. A diesel has more torque, but less max. rpm. Therefore it makes the same power as a gas car with less torque but a higher rev range.
Then comes the transmission, the wheels etc. who change the ratio. Wheel hp at the end is what counts
fun fact top fuel dragsters diesek the entire run after the first 0.1 second they melt the spark plugs and run off compression lol
@@Zonotic2 diesel doesn't have spark plugs..
@solidfuel0 That's why he said, " they diesel the entire run after 0.1 second " because there is no longer a spark plug from that moment and beyond, running off pure compression
not anymore, thats 40 years old information.
@@justincharles6585yeah, I don’t understand how this could be remotely true, since top fuel dragsters aren’t direct injection motors. Certainly they would blow the motor every run from pre-ignition? And what any the burnout? That definitely lasts more than 0.1 seconds…
Well, this video is from Europe, so they have the Volvo iron knight over there that diesel Lorry/Semi truck will embarrass a lot of petrol/gasoline production cars on top speed.
In a stock gas vs disel engine comparison gas would win the race because gasoline engines makes a little bit lower torque in a longer rpm range than disels.
Yeah, tractors don't tend to win races
3:57 Don't you dare talk smack about mah boi Bart !
Need more refference race... Thailand its diesel war race...
At the same power level diesel wins. Has way better power integral. Torque doesn't win races, it is just part of what power consists of.
Nope .
Diesel doesnt' win races? R18 TDI just entered the chat.
Simple, race is a time event... horsepower is torque over time... the end
It's very simple diesels simplely rev slower and still have gears to change
Well they do. Same power diesel will often over perform same power petrol
Because Torque gets you moving but horsepower keeps you moving.
That’s not a good comparison. It’s torque vs rpm. Not torque vs horsepower. Torque is how hard you can hit, rpm is how fast you can hit, and horsepower is the total damage.
@@2seepYes. Horsepower is basically work over time, and rpm is how fast you hit something, but torque is how hard you hit that object as you said yourself.
Because anything that has horsepower and uses rotation to move has torque, and the measure of the rate that you'd be able to produce motion is horsepower.
Power = rate of work
Work = force X distance (implies motion because of distance)
Nice video. Subbed. You should try out Automation!
What is that?
@@AndreasPetersen1 A decently detailed car engine designer and vehicle simulator. Has a few career gameplay mechanics that you can side step, sandbox offers a nice level of detail. More casual than designing and writing code for beamng engines/cars. It’s fun to play with stroke and sizes, compression, and see the power outputs.
+1 to that. I've spent 150 hours in automation this year just building engines and cars in sandbox. Since it's based on math, everything comes out to pretty realistic numbers compared to the real stuff (to a point, of course)
What if u would put CVT in BMW Diesel, would it help ? :D
@@shutu6338 In theory it might, since the CVT is supposed to take full advantage of the engine's peak power at peak rpm. However, given how flawed the CVT is and how often it experiences mechanical failure, such performance would sound excellent on paper.
No, it would only widen the margin in favor of petrol. Diesel are faster because they deliver more power over a wider range of the torque band, while gas engines are very peaky, delivering peak power on a very small band. A cvt allows the gas to stay with this band, negating the advantage of the diesel
@@ego4551 Makes sense. The original comment was curious about using a CVT for a diesel engine despite the inherent flaws and issues with CVTs. They're great on paper but those gearboxes are underwhelming in practice.