I am more interested in Tyr's reaction to... Life lets say when being restored. Ionya and Archemedias reaction was, "contain and cure". Are the titan defenses at tryhold *really* malfunctioning? I feel they are doing their job as intended and we are a threat to Order and corrupted by old gods, we are not evil just stupid. When Tyr comes around and looks to the aspects and looks to us, the +1 player character and go, and what is "this"? Then aspects go, oh we can vouch for them, saved the world many times totally cool even killed Neltharion. Tyr: 'Where are the other keepers' loken, Odyn, Ra, etc. Oh you killed loken? good. And Ra after he fell to the old gods? huh interesting. My friends Ionya and Archaedas had the disc soooo where are oh, you killed them too huh? So the defenses to stop a Void Lord from corrupting this world soul were destroyed and the failsafe laser was wasted on shooting an old god that was already contained before and not the void lord theat. Cool cool, at least the void lords don't know this- oh one of n'zoth's allies escaped wanting to claim a throne? I see. Welllp if you excuse me i'll just contact algalon real qui- why is he crying.
I think N'Zoth would have worked better as the main villain of his own expansion. The Pre-patch would have focused on some minions of N'Zoth trying to free him and we go to try and stop them. But we fail and N'zoth is freed, and the expansion itself will focus on the return of the Black Empire and us fighting against a freed Old God and his minions. Would have been a good opportunity to explore the Void a bit more.
would've been awesome. n'zoth's role in bfa felt so out of left field and unrewarding. one patch and a shitty cut scene is all it took to take down the thing that corrupted neltharion? gimme a fuckin break
@@near--zero you got that right. Last few have been rough to play. Bfa and SL killed it for me. I've recently hopped back into DF but it doesn't hold my attention like Legion did.
@@beecees410 I wanted to like bfa so badly. The trailer, opening missions, etc.... it allude it seem like we are going back to the roots of the game. Horde vs Alliance! Instead we recruited fat sailers, trolls who went to a chiropractor, and united against the fish people because old gods again...
@@Djones0125 i mean after all the collective effort of both the horde and alliance defeating all these tyrant up until going into space to tickle a titan together, i would have hated a horde vs alliance expansion. But ya, what we got was even worse. And the idea of shadowlands appealed me as an edge lo- i mean death knight. But, and i still cant believe it was possible, it was even worse than BFA.
Glad you are covering the plot holes in a professional way. I loved the story of Wow and grew up watching your lore videos. Hopefully your vigilance can help motivate them to bring the story back.
Next expac, World of Warcraft Electric Bugaloo. End zones are Dread wastes, and Azjol Nerub, Silithis, Ahn'qiraj the forgotten city. It ends with the reveal of the last old god tapping into azeroth forcing the bronze dragon flight to use time magic to stop the old god's plans while also preventing the damage killing the old god might do. With this in place it breaks the regular flow of time and then leads into murozond main villian expac.
Azeroth is the old gods mother(thats my theory anyway), but whatever she is i dont think she is a Titan. From what ive seen, Titans dont bleed, they are constructs but Azeroth does bleed so i dont think she is a Titan.
From the book where Vereesa becomes a Void Elf, we learn that the Void is capable of seeing possible futures, same way that the Light can, except Light is more "there is ONE future!" and Void is more "There's MANY futures!" So I personally read Past N'Zoth's whispers, as him just looking at you, and seeing all the possible futures that you have.
The funny thing about the Void and the Light is that they mean NOTHING in the end. You find this out in that one Kyrian quest chain when you're helping Alexandros and one of the lead Kyrian pretty much tell you that the Void and the Light are meaningless and Alexandros wasted his time following the Light since he ended up going to Maldraxus anyway. So, according to Shadowlands lore, nothing we do matters anyway.
Djaradin are definitely part of the 'bargains' that Iridikron made we even have that soft confirmed alliances through Tarjin the Blind that there were if anything talks between the two, as far as the five evil gods not too sure unless were going to learn something later in the expansion that hints at some 'expunged data' in regards to one we don't know or that was bound in an unconventional manner(think Neltharion using the void to vacuum up Razegeth).
I would love to see the emergence of a new old god, I remember thinking to myself maybe Murozond's death was what an Old god wanted to happen or what they wanted us to see and that was instead him becoming an old god, some form of accession into the void, I know that's pretty far fetched but I like the character so much.
why would N'zoth plan to lose? because like Xalatath says :"As so often is the case with the god of the deep even in defeat he ultimately wins" (might be slight paraphrasing don't remember the quote exactly) N'zoth is a corruptor not a fighter, he's weaker than all the others (if we believe Xalatath) but he's also smarter. It's easier to corrupt and manipulate your target when they don't realize they're being corrupted, if the whole of Azeroth believes him to be dead they won't suspect those incessant dark thoughts in their heads to be his whispers
Something I found interesting in the obsidian citadel dungeon was the elephant boss, and the potion or whatever the bad guys in there use on him. It make the boss grow magma tentacles which reminded me of the death wing fight. I'd love to think that blizzard is hinting at something here, but I also don't believe they have that kind of attention to detail like say fromsoftware would 🙃
What I like to think with N'zoth going into the blade is that it will make the people of Azeroth think that they finally have a weapon against the Old Gods if they were to rise again, and N'zoth wants every Old God to be inside that blade.
My thought for why N'zoth would want to be in the blade is time is meaningless so he escapes prison but we all know that he did. So using the dagger to hold him makes us think we are done with him forever. Now he is "free" and we don't know it. He works best in the shadows and behind the scenes so that is good for him.
What we need is an entire expansion just about the old gods. No mortal antagonists. No side conflict. No new races, species or zones. Just 100% dedication to fully and completely detailing out what they are and their true history!
Well, many people in many places already said it, but it really bugs they put that "I see you. What you are, what you will yet be" from N'Zoth fucking self, specially when we all have forgott about him and moved on. They maked and put on the man story (so everybody must see it) that entire black empire quest there for no real reason other that bring our attention to that. To do that, they must have at least some ideas where that leads, and I can't be "to nothing". Personally, the idea of N'Zoth not being dead and fake it's dead to scape through a vision seems pretty good to me, showing how smart he really is and making the 8.3 of BfA much more interesting to revisit. Retconing shadowlands with the "it was a dream" cliché seems going to far, but a "fake dead" like the hunter skill from N'Zoth, and then proceed to do dark stuff under the radar while be were busy in another plane of reality where we could not see him sounds very on character from N'Zoth, and maybe it can set tracks to a proper resolution with him and the old gods stuff, through a proper old gods expac (starts with N'Zoth and ends with the 5th old god). We're talking about Lovecraftian horror. Cosmic horror. Even if it's not real horror, that stuff sells a lot. I still think it can make a hell of an expac.
9:25 he could have known we needed to lose faith in the titians before he could win, with all the new titan lore showing they may have been no so good, we may have to seek out help against them and then Nzoth will have the heros of Azeroth willingly come to his side or somthing like that
"Why would Nzoth use his visions of the future to lose?" Its like Endgame. He saw a future where he could not win, where he was destroyed, and the only way to survive would be to "lose". In the vision of the past in DF he says he knows us and knows what we will do, I mean that seems pretty cut and dry right? He knows we defeat him, so he will obviously have taken steps to avoid that.
Shadowlands starts because a being that should have gone to one plane after death went to the wrong place. The nathrezim filled Argus' titan world-soul with death magic and it broke fundamental parts of that plane. Meanwhile we used a Titan facility to fill a Void-god with some kind of energy in order to "kill" him. Are we remotely sure that N'Zoth went to the correct plane when he "died"? Could be the victory that went unnoticed is us giving N'Zoth access to somewhere he never could have gone otherwise.
What i truly believe, is that visions of nzoth was exactly that, a vision. That he had a plan all along for something. Its not like shadowlands never happened like you said, it was just something out of the ordinary with the vision patch.
You saw one in TBC, granted not at full power: Dimensionus. the void lords are Just voidwalkers that consumes everything in their vicinity to stay in the realm of reality and never at full power.
WE STILL dont know what the old god was on draenor that we seen in outland and from other writings from the zones that point out an old god was on draenor.
@@holyflygon in TBC, they bird people in the last zone were trying to call forth an old god that looked like C'thun. in WoD there was a few hints of old gods being below the surface as Anzu Conversed with em' in a shorty story. Not to mention the area with the Sprouts.
@@RainWalking Maybe, maybe not, G'huun is a Titan made old god experimentation with old god samples. Unless they lied, which is a possibility, which would also mean they lied about everything probably including that Azeroth is a Titan.
The problem with many fans -- not just Warcraft fans, but all anime/game fans -- is that they take the dialogues of characters too seriously. They don't understand that what the characters say merely tell us what those characters think or believe, or even just being polite to other characters, at that point in time, and by no means what they say is true. I always question those people who would claim that, say, Vegeta is stronger than Goku just because Goku exclaimed "I've never seen such strength!" when Vegeta powers up. Magni Bronzebeard said that Azeroth is rid of Old God influence. That could be true for just that one moment. Maybe an Old God or two were still alive and simply not actively "influencing" anything by laying low and waiting for the next opportunity. Or maybe Magni is actually influenced by an Old God who gave him the illusion that Azeroth is safe. You see, the story is written -- or not yet written -- by humans. There's no need to speculate because the future of the story of Warcraft is still very liquid and can change easily if Blizzard saw fit. As Nobbel said, anything can happen, including retcons. So, stop speculating. It's fine to review the past, but there's no need to guess the future.
I feel there is a reason to use the older 5 old gods over the changes we have had. Maybe this 5th Old god was never chained on are side of the world. Kalmdor is mentioned to be the perfect continent created by the Titans. Maybe they didn't move all those lands to make the Super continent. Maybe just like how the Dragon Isles were shrouded in mists hidden from us, maybe their so much more out there beyond the seas. Personally i haven't played since Legion, but I get my lore fix from friends and all the WoW lore tubers to keep up on what is going as I still love the lore, and Old God lore is always so much fun to follow. Can't wait to hear what happens next, and hope it is fun for the player base.
I think it would be interesting to have N'zoth himself tie in to this confusion. We've had a lot of hints about new areas hidden from us on other parts of Azeroth, and this could be an ideal place for a 5th Old God. N'zoth, having met us in the past, knows that he dies and we defeat the other Old Gods, so he uses this knowledge to hide the 5th one from us. Instead of opening our eyes, he blinds Magni, and Azeroth herself, to this 5th Old God
I do think there’s a fifth old god; I would like them to do something weird with it. Like Cthun, Yogg, and N’Zoth were just in big cages and Yshaarj was torn to shreds; I like that Xalatath was in a dagger. Maybe the next one is imprisoned in its own name, which was torn apart and scattered around the world; only by reassembling the name can it start to influence the world again, and something has to know that they’re even looking for it to reassemble it.
I love the idea of N'Zoth putting itself in a blade. Because that action seems inscrutiable to us, it feels perfect for an inscrutiable Old God. What an Old God wants is not necessarily what would make sense to perfectly sane mortals... they are not existences like us. Personally, a great end is that there was this struggle between the Old Gods for dominance, and in fact, they are consuming each other to become some kind of Sentai Old God
The more I digest and learn, I am developing a theory. The Old God's are a shared entity and those that fall into the Void (through these 'gods') are joining it or 'descending into madness'. We have been seeing the Old God's different personalities/architypes and they somewhat reflect the 5 stages of grief in their voicelines and through their demise. Denial - C'Thun Anger - Y'Shaarj Bargaining - *Maybe linked with the blade of Sargeras?* Depression - Yogg Saron Acceptance - N'Zoth
It’s fun to think that our blunder with Chromie actually has long lasting effects. The devs can patch anything into the game so it’d be cool to see them change all of the text to say five gods as if nzoth prepared for what was coming by seeing the future of the champions and preparing by calling forth a fifth god at some point after the titans came to Azeroth.
would be cool if the fifth old god is Azeroth, which must be kept sleeping lest reality comes to an end(like Azathoth). which is why Sargeras had to be stopped from killing it. All existence in the warcraft universe is Azeroths dream and the titans figured this out and protect it at all cost
Yep, it would also explain why he had such a hard on to get our world. He wanted to destroy all worlds in the wowverse and killing her would be the quickest way. In any case even if Azeroth is not a old god(which i think she is or more like she is the mother of the old gods), she definitely aint a Titan. Because Titans are constructs(as said in the new DF lore and that Titans were made by the First Ones) and constructs dont bleed but Azeroth does, which means even if she is not a old god she aint a Titan either.
I always thought Xal was the unofficial 5th Old God, but with all the bronze stuff going on and us literally going back in time to the black empire, I lowkey kinda hope that a 5th old god is somehow able to slip through these opened timestreams and hide within the space (time?) in-between, watching/interfering with time from the present, the past, and the future (to which to an old god probably doesn't mean as much as it would to a mortal since they can already see all the possible futures). It could even explain the whole bits about exactly how/why the Old Gods are so prophetic other than "they're outside of mortal comprehension" and just expecting us to go along with it.
So the way the Void works, is that they can see all possible futures but they can never be certain which will be the right one. They use this to show people visions of the future where they joined the old gods to convince them to in fact join the old gods. The old gods, and N'Zoth in particular, have been shone as being able to read the minds of mortals. By going back in time, we basically told N'Zoth exactly which timeline happens. Or at least we narrowed things down to the point where things converge enough that he can accurately predict what will happen. And we did this so far in the past that he had an absolutely absurd amount of time to figure out how to use our perception of what happened to his advantage. Hell, it's possible that he just looked at all the futures branching off from him being defeated at that time in that way to figure out in which versions he ultimately wins. We gave the void the one thing it's never had, Certainty. And that is a very bad thing for us.
I think N'Zoth is like Dormamu from the Marvel Universe, where time has no effect on them. When we go back to the Black Empire part in Dragonflight. Nobody seemed to be worried about changing any future timeline while we are back there. In fact, the bronze dragons act like they have met the Black Empire before. Almost like if you go anywhere far enough back or forward through any branch of time you run into the Black Empire.
I think the 5th Old god they're talking about is possibly Xalatath. Remember the weapon's description has many origin stories, one of them being that it was a fang that belonged to an old god but never specified which one, so this might be it. Also back in Battle for Azeroth, look with how much familiarity N'Zoth and Xalatth talk to each other... The twist here being that this 5th Old god doesn't have a gigantic old gody like body. Instead, it works with a humanoid avatar just like the Aspects, maybe because it serves its purpose better, who knows, but it might lead to interesting events!
To answer your question on why would N'zoth chose to lose with the information he had, i think its because he sees endless possibilities, hence maybe he saw that if he defeat us and won, maybe by then some defense mechanism would activate? Like maybe the titans would come and pluck him out? Or some other kind of mechanism, i think he chose to go into xalatath to escape a prison that might be holding him back or lets say it might limit his power if he escaped it? Or it could be that he went into xalatath to infiltrate the titans ranks, since they were pumping azeroth with void maybe if someone used xalatath and stabbed a titan or if the titan used xalatath or held it he might be able to posses/influence the titan to create a void/dark titan to help them? Im not entirely sure but to me escaping from the Titan made prison into xalatath which is a void artifact that the old gods know about much more than titan creation would make sense because he might be able to deal with their creation with less difficulty than a titan one, thats what i personally think. And thank you for these wonderful videos!
I think the Old Gods are gone from Azeroth, but there are other ways the Void could become the next big threat. There are still Void cultists on Azeroth. But if there is a fifth Old God, it's likely Xal'atath. There are many hints, such as Xal'atath referring to the Old Gods as "us". She's either an Old God who went rogue, and was imprisoned in the blade, or she's messanger of Void.
@Nobbel87: Just curious, do you re-edit older videos when there is new information or information changes, or do you leave it to the upload date to serve as an indication of when that information was up to date and valid? I was just thinking that it might be helpful to add a quick disclaimer or simply just the present patch number in the video or in the description for users who may be confused now or in the future. The issue is not just for retcons, but for subject matter that is further clarified or added to within the game or novels.
He's made a couple of remakes, or new parts which add in new information, but it's not a regular thing. He always covers new lore and current content though, so his viewers should be mostly up to speed with new info and changes anyway.
"Why would N'zoth use his visions of the future to lose?" Because he had to lose, we are clearly a vital link in a chain of events that ultimately leads to the desired outcome of the old Gods. So if he had defeated us then , for example we would not have been able to go to the Shadowlands to defeat Jailer. If he had hidden from us that might have delayed our response to the threat coming from the Shadowlands, again leading to a possible undesired outcome. That leaves only two other options that I can see, N'zoth accepting his death or alternatively finding a way to cheat death so that the event takes place but he still survives the encounter. After all everyone thinking he is dead would take alot of pressure off , leaving him free to manipulate events from the Shadows because nobody is going to be looking for him if he is "dead". Also if 5 old Gods were imprisoned doesn't that mean there were originally 6 since Y'shaarj was ripped from the planet before the imprisonment of the others?
The difference between C'thun and N'Zoth is that the whole patch we beat N'Zoth in was all about entering his visions that have no impact on the world. We gained our power from entering his visions that weren't real. Even in Nyalotha we were fighting enemies that were just visions. I think it makes more sense that we were tricked, than we beat an old god that even the Titans had to lock away. I thin N'Zoth saw the future, and decided to trick us, and by extension Magni, possibly so the titan defenses would drop without any old god threat left.
I am struggling to connect to what the 5th could be. I wonder if G'huun was made a longer time ago and only sprung into action during Uldir and he was the 5th that they refer to as they also knew it? I also think that the loop causing the certain future of where Murozond goes has been closed but what stumps me is "Did Nozdormu have to go to a time period when the Old Gods were at their worst and corrupted him utterly?"
G'huun is a creation of the titans and their reasearch on the old gods, so he's an atrifical old god. So if they end up calling him the fifth old god, it would be a redcon after they've already redconned alot of lore in order to make it align more with the future they had planned for the story.
The real kicker isnt G'huun tho, the kicker is it said they locked away 5 old gods. Before this we only knew of 4, 1 of which was killed by the Titans, so if they did lock up 5 that means they lied and Y'sharajj is still alive. Or even crazier if they told the truth that means they killed him and locked away 5 old gods which means there were originally 6 old gods.
In regards to Morozond. I feel like his experience of time is different and that perhaps while the old gods do not exist in the here and now, that does not necessarily mean that they are gone from what Nozdormu sees. It has been kinda hinted at that he can not see everything and especially that he can only if barely see what the old gods are doing, so what if the old gods would find a way to only show Nozdormu a certain past, a specific moment, one possible future, but that one is assumed by Nozdormu to be the true one since he can see it and that does not necessarily have to happen in our time. Its more like 5 dimensional time at this point
I just saw something like this! Darnassus 54.27 38.45 “the old gods and the ordering of Azeroth” page 5 “The pantheon shattered the old gods’ citadels and chained the five evil gods far beneath the surface of the world”
I think the “defeats” of C’thun and Yogg Saron are that we destroyed their consciousness and they slipped into comas. With their minds annihilated their bodies were left to remain, and their remnant power was taken by N’Zoth when he was released hence why Magni said all corruption was gone, as all focuses and anchors of the Void Lords and the Old Gods
5th Old God leading a Black Empire invasion from the Southern half of the world would make sweet expansion. They could use it as another catalyst to update older zones that are now under attack by emperial forces.
1. Primalists need to get into the Emerald Dream freeing the 5th old god which is imprisoned in G'Hanir the Mother Tree 2. Iridikron uses the powers of the Old god to empower himself becoming Galakrond. 3. Iridikron infused Nozdormu with Dark water to corrupt him. Nozdormu sends Galakrond into the past in one last act of desparation and then becomes corrupted shattering the timeways 4. We witness the Dawn of the Aspects and fight Galakrond similar to how Broxigar fought Sargeras during the War of the Ancients. 5. We fight Murozond and work towards restoring the Timeways with Chromie and the Bronze Dragonflight. The weakened Murozond is banished to the End Time closing the loop and Chromie becomes the new Aspect of Time. 6. The Light invades our Timeline since we have been messing with time.
There was five old gods for quite some time (in Wrath, there were still five old gods, as I remember) - it was comparatively recent retcon to make only four. So I think it is simple writing mistake, or typo. Strange note, btw - I mean, we already had been familiarized with all Titans actions etc. We found out about YSharaj being just ripped away from the planet's crust, and defeated all remainings of him - in MoP. We killed Cthun and Yogg-Saron long time ago - Classic/Wotlk respectively. We know who backed Deathwing in Cataclysm. The only remaining, at that point in time, Old God - NZoth. But Dragonflight plots are pretending like we weren't aware about arrival of Titans and their actions back then. Also the phrasing is so blunt, I just cant - "peace" in quotes, "oppression", "Titans couldn't bind corruption". I mean - Titans have like half a dozen "reset" buttons all over Azeroth. We barely managed to convince Algalon the Observer to not hit one of those, back then. What does it mean with "couldn't bind" - they actually did bind them, it lasted for tenths of thousands of years at very least. Only after world-breaking Sundering, and after TItans were apprehended by Sargeras somewhere far-far away, making it so that no one checked on Titan-keepers and no one provided powers to sustain them - only then the Old Gods started to make commotions again. And TItans "oppressed" only the Old Gods and their servants - because they were aggressive and twisted planet's initial state to some horrific version. Azeroth is btw also a titan, so a creature of Order, in general. I don't get these weak-ass tries from plot to force a simplistic notion: - "Titans and their powers were deceptive and malitios all along, guys, wake up!" Because, khm, they actually aren't. At least it is not for anyone from Old Gods to lecture us about it. Metaphorically speaking - the gardener would not ask each earthworm or insect one-by-one, whether it wants to go to strawberries bushes today or not. It simply puts him in the earth nearby the bush - so worm would be provided with food. In the end, it is beneficial for all parties involved, even if those parties don't comprehend it at all.
I'm discouraged by how many "hints" in the game now feel less like actual clues to future story and more like potential options, if that makes sense. As if they're leaving breadcrumbs but really have no clue where they're going.
The lore in BFA states that in the research facility, Uldir, the Titans accidentally created a 5th old god, G'hunn. I am pretty sure that is the 5th old god they were talking about. That being said I doubt the whispers of the old gods are done for and with Xalatath still being around and other void cultists there is no doubt going to still be influence from the Void Lords in future updates or expansions.
I can see that. Them saying there’s 5 old gods makes me think they’re trying to hide the fact that they created the fifth old god, and are trying to make it seem like G’huun was always there.
Det är alltid ett nöje att se ditt innehåll! Ja, jag hör att du är från Finland så! Ville bara berätta att ditt lugnande talande är väldigt tilltalande så tack!
Hey Nobble. Thanks again for a fun, entertaining and enlightening episode. My friend and I had a lengthy discussion about all of this and some of the topics for the future of this expansion. As well as the possible expansion after this one. And there is something that you, and many other’s haven’t mentioned or delved into, that my friend and I are almost sure of. Mind you, this is all hear say and speculation; but it is the most conclusive answer in my mind. When N’Zoth is speaking to us in the past, when we go time hopping. He mentions many things. One thing that stuck out to my friend, that I agree with. Is the “Blind Queen.” And, without going into every single detail of what we discussed and to cut to the chase. And to make this relevant to this video: Couldn’t the “Blind Queen,” be Alexstraza? And couldn’t N’zoth technically come back in some way with her life binder aspectual powers? Couldn’t this, have been N’Zoth’s plan all along? To make us think we’ve won. Only to come back, just as Tyr is trying to do? Couldn’t this lead “Path to the deep places of the earth.” Lead her to “Corrupted Waters?” Where N’Zoth can influence her mind? What if as we chase after Irridikron, that the truth of what Tyr had done with them and the Incarnates. Drive Alexstraza into doubting what she believed, and make it easier for her to be turned into something for N’Zoth’s rebirth or return? Could these things I mentioned, be the very things that finally turn Norzdormu, into Murezond? That this is the terrible thing that happens, that he so desperately goes back and tries to prevent? What if?! The infinite Dragon flight was right all along?! What of we are eventually going to have to time hop as well. And destroy and restore things to a better future?! What are your thoughts on these theories? I have more to add. But this is the crusp of what my friend and I discussed.
we have always thought there should be a 5 old god so this dose kinda make sence and also back in i forget which expansion there was talk that the shadow priest knife was the fifth old god that somehow got cast down by the other 4
I think it depends on how many expansions are still to come. Because at some point they will run out of really bad villains and then someone will rummage around in a drawer and pull out a note that says 5 old gods
Love the Content Nobbel, Just wanted to put my 2 cents in about it, have been thinking alot about this, so When they write that they imprisoned the 5 old gods on Azeroth, would this be after the titans rip Y'shaarj out of the planet, only to realise they cannot do this them selfs and having to create the keepers to fight against the Old Gods? If so does that mean that there could be 2 more old gods still imprisoned in Azeroth? In saying that If Xal'atath counts as a Old God then there could be one more old God still unknown, but that's If they are counting Xal'atath.
The answer is even simpler: Y'shaarj did not exist yet when they wrote that lore. If they updated the text it would say they imprisoned three Old Gods. Back when this was written, Titans were considered smaller and weaker than Old Gods (in new lore they're basically replaced by their Keepers), the Eredar were evil before Sargeras, the Shadowlands were a deathly reflection of Azeroth, Suramar was a lifeless ruin recently raised from the ocean floor, and demons stayed dead when killed. So don't think too hard about it. :D The in-game books are now more like meant to reflect what the people of Azeroth knew (or thought they knew) back then.
N'zoth realized there is no real future that allows him to fully 'win' Azeroth in the traditional sense. He can't overpower the adventurers who have been accumulating more and more power that each of the most seasoned ones are miniature demigods or one-man armies now. Even his 'visions of the future' was a means to an end: he needed to appear and present a reasonable threat to make adventurers enter N'yalotha to fight him. He could've killed the Horde and Alliance that had gathered on the platform just above his prison, but chose not to, instead just grabbing Azshara as partially bait/revenge; and even she has a part to play. He let her keep the knife, he gave her the motivation to enlist the adventurers to 'kill' him with it, and now she's bamfed off to whereever the Void Lords are, literally carrying a bit of him with her, and we're prolly see her again too. He's basically realized the 'soft' approach works best cos we adventurers are experts at smacking things down the hard way.
It makes sense to have 4 Old Gods for each of the 4 Elemental Lords. Having a fifth would be rather messy, seeing as the only place we haven't seen one is Eastern Kingdoms, but... under Tirisfal? I find that hard to believe. If they TRULY wanted to do a fifth Old God, it should be... where? If we say Tirisfal, then I SUPPOSE it would make some sense that the Forsaken felt no effects, but what of all the non-Forsaken? What about under Blackrock Mountain? Well, then why did that Old God take over the Dark Iron Dwarves and Ragnaros? Alright, how about Stranglethorn Vale or Duskwood? Well, wouldn't Hakkar have some feeling of an Old God nearby or wouldn't the living races be taken by the Old God's powers? A fifth Old God seems to have no good place on the last continent unless it WILLING prevented its corrupting influence from twisting the minds of mortals around it. But if that Old God decided to bide its time, would it be smarted than N'zoth? The - arguably - wisest Old God? It just doesn't make sense.
If they do something cool it could be that Azeroth is something we've never seen before. I've seen theories of Old God, Titan, even a prime elemental, but it'd be really cool if it was something else entirely. My big question is why is there the veil around Azeroth that keeps our souls in? Is that just a biproduct of keeping Azeroth's soul dormant? It seems like Azeroth is it's own prison, the prison was constructed by the titans and they don't want anyone to know what Azeroth really is.. even the Old Gods had no clue what they found on the planet and what they were tapping into. It'd be AMAZING if Azeroth turns out to be the ultimate evil in the universe and Yrel and alternate Xe'ra show up and being the supposed goody two shoes light pawns they break the chains and set Azeroth free only to unleash a being of destruction unlike anything anyone's ever seen before and they all get blinked out of existence and even Sargeras has NOTHING on Azeroth. Personally, I still want to see what's on the other side of Azeroth.. There's still 2/3's of the planet we've never seen.
personally i don't want a 5th old gods, N'Zoth, Yogg, Y'Shaarj and C'Thun are already establish and loved by the community. and i'm afraid of another Jailer kinda story where "it was the 5th all along!!" plus a black empire expansion is my dream, old gods lore was always my favorite.
The way us "killing" old gods always comes off to me is that we're only killing a part of them or an avatar, then they wait and regrow their power in their prison. When they feel powerful enough to do so they manifest a physical avatar or another piece of themselves. A lot of my thoughts on them would come down to how they're imprisoned. Idk if they're in a constructed building underground or just buried.
My hopes for the future, Xalatash is the 5th old god. In a shocking turn of events, the other 4 old gods became rogue agents upon landing on Azeroth (as they wanted to cultivate the world soul in their own way). So they turned on Xalatash and banished her from breaking everything. Now the "benevolent" old gods are gone and the one true old god has left and gone back to the void. Just like Sargeras, they now know of the exact location of our ripe planet.
i loved the nyalotha patch of BfA and i loved everything it added relating to n'zoth i just wish there had been more i would have loved an entire expac just relating to fighting him
I really think we're going to see the end of the old aspects, minus Ysera. She already died. I really think the only things that would cause Noz to become Mor is the death of Alex. Her death might even relate to whatever villany Tyr has in store.
Like i think somehow one of the old gods could of kind of fooled us, like us going into the past to save Cromie could of sent things into motion, like N`Zoth himself could of looked into our minds, which could of set the whole reason on why he "knew" us, though at that timeline it could of slightly confused him onto just how he knew us, but realized there was a connection. and since that was way back than he could of conjured up a plan of some kind to give the old gods the best chance of suceeded, even if he wasn't in it. Like we alrdy know everything that was written isn't all true by the titan's so it like okay what isn't than, and i got a good feeling it's something huge, something even the titan's want to remain hidden though know eventually it will come to light, like it could of been instead of them failing to remove Y'shaari from Azeroth, maybe one of the Titan's got wounded and fell into the void trying to remove her, and they just rewrote the books and not mention the Titan at all so no know would be the wiser.
1 of 2 things will happen: 1: there is another old god so deep, we will only know it when is about to corrupt Azeroth. (if Blizz ever wants to go there, it would kinda introduce the end of WOW) 2: the voidlords infused what sword with an old god... and yeah.. would that not be ironic for Sargeras?
with time travel and multie dimensions, speculation about the lore becomes a lot less fun. but if they ever intended to bring this whole shenanigans to an end they need the void to some extend. though I'd be more interested what the elemental lords have to do with or say about these Protodragons
I never thought the Old Gods were gone. I hope they aren't. How can they be when we still see their influence in multiple tiny places? Maybe I'm wrong. I think they put an end to a particular chapter of the Old Gods' story, but there is definitely more they can pull from if they want. *Puts the nerd hat on* The Old Gods seem to work the same as the demons of Wow. Our Old Gods would want to come back just like the Legion did. There is no reason to think they would just get defeated and deal with it. Especially since the leaders of the Void no doubt know what Azeroth is. Anyway, sorry to type so much. Rant over :)
Only logical explanation. Madness, the moment Nerzoth escaped everyone on Azeroth lost his senses. Every expansion afterwards was just a vison of Nerzoth. That option is always there and I think it is a good one in this case. ;-)
I like that Idea. I thought of Something similar. Additionally, I thought that this old gods Body is in fact the curse of flesh. The god escaped His prison by disolving His Body and this old god Body essence sweeping over azeroth caused the curse. This would make the Goal of this god to absorb all the Biomass on azeroth to rebuild his Body. Kind of Like the tyrranids from 40k :D
Xala'tath: We may face some of my brethren in this conflict... a prospect that delights me. Their power will be mine! They will pay for what was done to me long ago.
I wouldn’t be opposed to there being a 5 old god, but the book was mistaken when it stated it was chained to the planet. What if it had escaped during the Titan’s subjugation and only acts as an observer to report back to the Void lords? They could then easily make that a names character we already know, but would have never expected since it was their job to always observe but never interfere.
With Mangi saying that the Old Gods are cleansed. Do we not remember "The King of Diamonds has been made a Pawn" I don't think we have seen a major payoff for this line, and even if it have, why would his corruption just end? From the earth he draws strength. Our earth. Our strength.
It will be a marketing nightmare, but it'd be awesome to know an expansion is coming but to have no clue about anything related to it and suddenly on day 1, we log into a Black empire Azeroth and we are enslaved or something. It will also be a developer nightmare, but cool af.
what if tyrhold is a prison for a old god and his body is how tyr use to mutate the dragons? i think tyrhold contains more experiments by tyr with both curse of flesh and dragonoid fusions. i think theres more to the vault of the incarnate due to its proximity to tyrhold. i think the vault was constructed to contain other dragons. just in case the aspect rebel as well.
Perhaps when players defeat the Old Gods in raids, it does more than just "break their Avatar and force them back into their prison". Perhaps doing so injures them enough that they basically withdraw to lick their wounds and rebuild their power. I would interpret the discussion with Magni to be that it's the first time in ages that they've all been withdrawn that much, which has allowed the /World Spirit/ - who is now at least semi-conscious - to be freed from their influence. That doesn't mean that the physical planet of Azeroth (which I don't think is _quite_ the same thing as its World Spirit / Titan Soul) is completely free of them.
Xal'atath said something about 'my brothers' and teased us about something else we don't know(when she said the old god names and then stopping and saying that only one will consume the world)...I think it's clear it has something to do with her
For the bit about Chronicle here blizzard sort of soft retconned it by emphesizing that it is written by the titans or atleast is from the titans perspective, so naturally that would also say that if the person writing notes in the in game book says that it is propaganda/lies that also means the chronicles can also lie.
i think the fact he recognizes us in the past means we will be going back in time again. i honestly think we will be alongside an old god in a final patch to fight against whatever dragon. nzoth is the old god with the most personality and i dont see us fighting him again. going back in time and having him being a rep would explain why he recognizes us when the elementals are fighting the old gods. so we would have to go back to a time before that. im assuming the infinite dragonflight will be doing something super evil near the beginning of azeroth's time? or someone using infinite dragonflight abilities
I definitely don't have any proof, but considering Neltharion's Old God influence, and the fact that the Primal Incarnate of earth, Iridikron, is the most powerful of their group, I think we'll probably see more Old God content in Dragonflight. At least from a story telling perspective, it seems to make a lot of sense.
![The Story of Uldir - Battle for Azeroth [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4FZ0wLLR8b8/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Story of Uldir - Battle for Azeroth [Lore]](/img/tr.png)
![The Story of The Red Dragonflight [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pOnUsV9D7lA/mqdefault.jpg)
I am more interested in Tyr's reaction to... Life lets say when being restored. Ionya and Archemedias reaction was, "contain and cure". Are the titan defenses at tryhold *really* malfunctioning? I feel they are doing their job as intended and we are a threat to Order and corrupted by old gods, we are not evil just stupid. When Tyr comes around and looks to the aspects and looks to us, the +1 player character and go, and what is "this"? Then aspects go, oh we can vouch for them, saved the world many times totally cool even killed Neltharion. Tyr: 'Where are the other keepers' loken, Odyn, Ra, etc. Oh you killed loken? good. And Ra after he fell to the old gods? huh interesting. My friends Ionya and Archaedas had the disc soooo where are oh, you killed them too huh? So the defenses to stop a Void Lord from corrupting this world soul were destroyed and the failsafe laser was wasted on shooting an old god that was already contained before and not the void lord theat. Cool cool, at least the void lords don't know this- oh one of n'zoth's allies escaped wanting to claim a throne? I see. Welllp if you excuse me i'll just contact algalon real qui- why is he crying.
This made me giggle. xD
"Welllp if you excuse me i'll just contact algalon real qui- why is he crying." im in tears 😂😂
Algalon retired and is playing Pokemon, trying to become the very best 😭
Ironiya is apperently missing acording to eastern kingdom book
IIRC Archaedas isn't canonically dead but he hasn't been mentioned in so long
I think N'Zoth would have worked better as the main villain of his own expansion.
The Pre-patch would have focused on some minions of N'Zoth trying to free him and we go to try and stop them. But we fail and N'zoth is freed, and the expansion itself will focus on the return of the Black Empire and us fighting against a freed Old God and his minions.
Would have been a good opportunity to explore the Void a bit more.
would've been awesome. n'zoth's role in bfa felt so out of left field and unrewarding. one patch and a shitty cut scene is all it took to take down the thing that corrupted neltharion? gimme a fuckin break
Glad too see you covering wow again, I know shadowlands was a hard hit on motivation
understandable. The blizz writers totally fucked the plot. The whole expansion should get retconned starting with the opening cinematic.
@@near--zero you got that right. Last few have been rough to play. Bfa and SL killed it for me. I've recently hopped back into DF but it doesn't hold my attention like Legion did.
@@Djones0125 my thoughts exactly
@@beecees410 I wanted to like bfa so badly. The trailer, opening missions, etc.... it allude it seem like we are going back to the roots of the game. Horde vs Alliance!
Instead we recruited fat sailers, trolls who went to a chiropractor, and united against the fish people because old gods again...
@@Djones0125 i mean after all the collective effort of both the horde and alliance defeating all these tyrant up until going into space to tickle a titan together, i would have hated a horde vs alliance expansion. But ya, what we got was even worse. And the idea of shadowlands appealed me as an edge lo- i mean death knight. But, and i still cant believe it was possible, it was even worse than BFA.
Glad you are covering the plot holes in a professional way. I loved the story of Wow and grew up watching your lore videos. Hopefully your vigilance can help motivate them to bring the story back.
Shadowlands was a plot hole.
@@cujoedaman Shadowlands was a hole. Just. A hole.
@@eggbeater55 This is true.
Next expac, World of Warcraft Electric Bugaloo. End zones are Dread wastes, and Azjol Nerub, Silithis, Ahn'qiraj the forgotten city. It ends with the reveal of the last old god tapping into azeroth forcing the bronze dragon flight to use time magic to stop the old god's plans while also preventing the damage killing the old god might do. With this in place it breaks the regular flow of time and then leads into murozond main villian expac.
murozon is in this expac
@@christianprevost8455 possible? yes! Something that is certain? No!
Can’t relate I play classic
villain*
Azeroth is the old gods mother(thats my theory anyway), but whatever she is i dont think she is a Titan. From what ive seen, Titans dont bleed, they are constructs but Azeroth does bleed so i dont think she is a Titan.
From the book where Vereesa becomes a Void Elf, we learn that the Void is capable of seeing possible futures, same way that the Light can, except Light is more "there is ONE future!" and Void is more "There's MANY futures!" So I personally read Past N'Zoth's whispers, as him just looking at you, and seeing all the possible futures that you have.
Vareesa?
i think you mean Alleria?
@@momsbe
Too many Windrunners for our own good anyway
The funny thing about the Void and the Light is that they mean NOTHING in the end. You find this out in that one Kyrian quest chain when you're helping Alexandros and one of the lead Kyrian pretty much tell you that the Void and the Light are meaningless and Alexandros wasted his time following the Light since he ended up going to Maldraxus anyway. So, according to Shadowlands lore, nothing we do matters anyway.
@@cujoedaman according to a character in SL it means nothing. That is not the same as "The Lore" saying it.
Even to a boring story(for me), you know how to add interesting frames and keep me hooked up the the story! Thanks and keep up the good work!
Djaradin are definitely part of the 'bargains' that Iridikron made we even have that soft confirmed alliances through Tarjin the Blind that there were if anything talks between the two, as far as the five evil gods not too sure unless were going to learn something later in the expansion that hints at some 'expunged data' in regards to one we don't know or that was bound in an unconventional manner(think Neltharion using the void to vacuum up Razegeth).
I would love to see the emergence of a new old god, I remember thinking to myself maybe Murozond's death was what an Old god wanted to happen or what they wanted us to see and that was instead him becoming an old god, some form of accession into the void, I know that's pretty far fetched but I like the character so much.
why would N'zoth plan to lose? because like Xalatath says :"As so often is the case with the god of the deep even in defeat he ultimately wins" (might be slight paraphrasing don't remember the quote exactly) N'zoth is a corruptor not a fighter, he's weaker than all the others (if we believe Xalatath) but he's also smarter. It's easier to corrupt and manipulate your target when they don't realize they're being corrupted, if the whole of Azeroth believes him to be dead they won't suspect those incessant dark thoughts in their heads to be his whispers
Brilliantly said
Or maybe he is just bad at his job.
Something I found interesting in the obsidian citadel dungeon was the elephant boss, and the potion or whatever the bad guys in there use on him. It make the boss grow magma tentacles which reminded me of the death wing fight.
I'd love to think that blizzard is hinting at something here, but I also don't believe they have that kind of attention to detail like say fromsoftware would 🙃
I agree, Fromsoft is incredible in hiding little details
Another interesting bit is that there is an art border in one of the novels that has a fifth Old God on ot as well.
What I like to think with N'zoth going into the blade is that it will make the people of Azeroth think that they finally have a weapon against the Old Gods if they were to rise again, and N'zoth wants every Old God to be inside that blade.
My thought for why N'zoth would want to be in the blade is time is meaningless so he escapes prison but we all know that he did. So using the dagger to hold him makes us think we are done with him forever. Now he is "free" and we don't know it. He works best in the shadows and behind the scenes so that is good for him.
That’s my theory too… that all of the old gods need to be in one container to fully infuse with Azeroth and birth a new void lord
What we need is an entire expansion just about the old gods. No mortal antagonists. No side conflict. No new races, species or zones. Just 100% dedication to fully and completely detailing out what they are and their true history!
Well, many people in many places already said it, but it really bugs they put that "I see you. What you are, what you will yet be" from N'Zoth fucking self, specially when we all have forgott about him and moved on. They maked and put on the man story (so everybody must see it) that entire black empire quest there for no real reason other that bring our attention to that. To do that, they must have at least some ideas where that leads, and I can't be "to nothing". Personally, the idea of N'Zoth not being dead and fake it's dead to scape through a vision seems pretty good to me, showing how smart he really is and making the 8.3 of BfA much more interesting to revisit. Retconing shadowlands with the "it was a dream" cliché seems going to far, but a "fake dead" like the hunter skill from N'Zoth, and then proceed to do dark stuff under the radar while be were busy in another plane of reality where we could not see him sounds very on character from N'Zoth, and maybe it can set tracks to a proper resolution with him and the old gods stuff, through a proper old gods expac (starts with N'Zoth and ends with the 5th old god).
We're talking about Lovecraftian horror. Cosmic horror. Even if it's not real horror, that stuff sells a lot. I still think it can make a hell of an expac.
9:25 he could have known we needed to lose faith in the titians before he could win, with all the new titan lore showing they may have been no so good, we may have to seek out help against them and then Nzoth will have the heros of Azeroth willingly come to his side or somthing like that
"Why would Nzoth use his visions of the future to lose?" Its like Endgame. He saw a future where he could not win, where he was destroyed, and the only way to survive would be to "lose". In the vision of the past in DF he says he knows us and knows what we will do, I mean that seems pretty cut and dry right? He knows we defeat him, so he will obviously have taken steps to avoid that.
Shadowlands starts because a being that should have gone to one plane after death went to the wrong place. The nathrezim filled Argus' titan world-soul with death magic and it broke fundamental parts of that plane. Meanwhile we used a Titan facility to fill a Void-god with some kind of energy in order to "kill" him. Are we remotely sure that N'Zoth went to the correct plane when he "died"? Could be the victory that went unnoticed is us giving N'Zoth access to somewhere he never could have gone otherwise.
@@c.b.- cool theory
@@c.b.- So N'Zoth respawns in the Titan afterlife
What i truly believe, is that visions of nzoth was exactly that, a vision. That he had a plan all along for something. Its not like shadowlands never happened like you said, it was just something out of the ordinary with the vision patch.
We wake up back in classic having saved Norzdormu from his fate. Then we start the story from the first horde onwards. What a dream that would be
Man i love that speculation time is back
I just want to see the void lords just once
You saw one in TBC, granted not at full power: Dimensionus.
the void lords are Just voidwalkers that consumes everything in their vicinity to stay in the realm of reality and never at full power.
@@warllockmasterasd9142you don’t really know that, that’s just speculation
Arent there more old gods out there on dead planets or planets without a titan core :D Could they not "somehow" invade Azeroth
WE STILL dont know what the old god was on draenor that we seen in outland and from other writings from the zones that point out an old god was on draenor.
@@holyflygon in TBC, they bird people in the last zone were trying to call forth an old god that looked like C'thun.
in WoD there was a few hints of old gods being below the surface as Anzu Conversed with em'
in a shorty story.
Not to mention the area with the Sprouts.
Fun speculation: the only other thing we know of that's still trapped beneath the surface is Azeroth herself.
The firth is G'huun
@@RainWalking Maybe, maybe not, G'huun is a Titan made old god experimentation with old god samples. Unless they lied, which is a possibility, which would also mean they lied about everything probably including that Azeroth is a Titan.
The problem with many fans -- not just Warcraft fans, but all anime/game fans -- is that they take the dialogues of characters too seriously.
They don't understand that what the characters say merely tell us what those characters think or believe, or even just being polite to other characters, at that point in time, and by no means what they say is true.
I always question those people who would claim that, say, Vegeta is stronger than Goku just because Goku exclaimed "I've never seen such strength!" when Vegeta powers up.
Magni Bronzebeard said that Azeroth is rid of Old God influence. That could be true for just that one moment. Maybe an Old God or two were still alive and simply not actively "influencing" anything by laying low and waiting for the next opportunity. Or maybe Magni is actually influenced by an Old God who gave him the illusion that Azeroth is safe.
You see, the story is written -- or not yet written -- by humans. There's no need to speculate because the future of the story of Warcraft is still very liquid and can change easily if Blizzard saw fit. As Nobbel said, anything can happen, including retcons.
So, stop speculating. It's fine to review the past, but there's no need to guess the future.
I feel there is a reason to use the older 5 old gods over the changes we have had. Maybe this 5th Old god was never chained on are side of the world. Kalmdor is mentioned to be the perfect continent created by the Titans. Maybe they didn't move all those lands to make the Super continent. Maybe just like how the Dragon Isles were shrouded in mists hidden from us, maybe their so much more out there beyond the seas.
Personally i haven't played since Legion, but I get my lore fix from friends and all the WoW lore tubers to keep up on what is going as I still love the lore, and Old God lore is always so much fun to follow. Can't wait to hear what happens next, and hope it is fun for the player base.
I think it would be interesting to have N'zoth himself tie in to this confusion. We've had a lot of hints about new areas hidden from us on other parts of Azeroth, and this could be an ideal place for a 5th Old God. N'zoth, having met us in the past, knows that he dies and we defeat the other Old Gods, so he uses this knowledge to hide the 5th one from us. Instead of opening our eyes, he blinds Magni, and Azeroth herself, to this 5th Old God
I do think there’s a fifth old god; I would like them to do something weird with it. Like Cthun, Yogg, and N’Zoth were just in big cages and Yshaarj was torn to shreds; I like that Xalatath was in a dagger. Maybe the next one is imprisoned in its own name, which was torn apart and scattered around the world; only by reassembling the name can it start to influence the world again, and something has to know that they’re even looking for it to reassemble it.
I love the idea of N'Zoth putting itself in a blade. Because that action seems inscrutiable to us, it feels perfect for an inscrutiable Old God. What an Old God wants is not necessarily what would make sense to perfectly sane mortals... they are not existences like us. Personally, a great end is that there was this struggle between the Old Gods for dominance, and in fact, they are consuming each other to become some kind of Sentai Old God
The more I digest and learn, I am developing a theory. The Old God's are a shared entity and those that fall into the Void (through these 'gods') are joining it or 'descending into madness'.
We have been seeing the Old God's different personalities/architypes and they somewhat reflect the 5 stages of grief in their voicelines and through their demise.
Denial - C'Thun
Anger - Y'Shaarj
Bargaining - *Maybe linked with the blade of Sargeras?*
Depression - Yogg Saron
Acceptance - N'Zoth
It’s fun to think that our blunder with Chromie actually has long lasting effects. The devs can patch anything into the game so it’d be cool to see them change all of the text to say five gods as if nzoth prepared for what was coming by seeing the future of the champions and preparing by calling forth a fifth god at some point after the titans came to Azeroth.
Remember that the diamond King speaks with the voice of the earth...THEIR voice.
Magni is going to pull a garrosh on us.
"The King of Diamonds has been made a pawn", a pawn of Azeroth the Dreamer mother of the Old Gods and creator of Reality(at least that my theory).
would be cool if the fifth old god is Azeroth, which must be kept sleeping lest reality comes to an end(like Azathoth). which is why Sargeras had to be stopped from killing it.
All existence in the warcraft universe is Azeroths dream and the titans figured this out and protect it at all cost
Yep, it would also explain why he had such a hard on to get our world. He wanted to destroy all worlds in the wowverse and killing her would be the quickest way.
In any case even if Azeroth is not a old god(which i think she is or more like she is the mother of the old gods), she definitely aint a Titan. Because Titans are constructs(as said in the new DF lore and that Titans were made by the First Ones) and constructs dont bleed but Azeroth does, which means even if she is not a old god she aint a Titan either.
I always thought Xal was the unofficial 5th Old God, but with all the bronze stuff going on and us literally going back in time to the black empire, I lowkey kinda hope that a 5th old god is somehow able to slip through these opened timestreams and hide within the space (time?) in-between, watching/interfering with time from the present, the past, and the future (to which to an old god probably doesn't mean as much as it would to a mortal since they can already see all the possible futures). It could even explain the whole bits about exactly how/why the Old Gods are so prophetic other than "they're outside of mortal comprehension" and just expecting us to go along with it.
So the way the Void works, is that they can see all possible futures but they can never be certain which will be the right one. They use this to show people visions of the future where they joined the old gods to convince them to in fact join the old gods. The old gods, and N'Zoth in particular, have been shone as being able to read the minds of mortals. By going back in time, we basically told N'Zoth exactly which timeline happens. Or at least we narrowed things down to the point where things converge enough that he can accurately predict what will happen. And we did this so far in the past that he had an absolutely absurd amount of time to figure out how to use our perception of what happened to his advantage. Hell, it's possible that he just looked at all the futures branching off from him being defeated at that time in that way to figure out in which versions he ultimately wins. We gave the void the one thing it's never had, Certainty. And that is a very bad thing for us.
I think N'Zoth is like Dormamu from the Marvel Universe, where time has no effect on them. When we go back to the Black Empire part in Dragonflight. Nobody seemed to be worried about changing any future timeline while we are back there. In fact, the bronze dragons act like they have met the Black Empire before. Almost like if you go anywhere far enough back or forward through any branch of time you run into the Black Empire.
All I can say is that I’m glad to see you posting wow content again and taking interest ❤
I think the 5th Old god they're talking about is possibly Xalatath. Remember the weapon's description has many origin stories, one of them being that it was a fang that belonged to an old god but never specified which one, so this might be it. Also back in Battle for Azeroth, look with how much familiarity N'Zoth and Xalatth talk to each other...
The twist here being that this 5th Old god doesn't have a gigantic old gody like body. Instead, it works with a humanoid avatar just like the Aspects, maybe because it serves its purpose better, who knows, but it might lead to interesting events!
To answer your question on why would N'zoth chose to lose with the information he had, i think its because he sees endless possibilities, hence maybe he saw that if he defeat us and won, maybe by then some defense mechanism would activate? Like maybe the titans would come and pluck him out? Or some other kind of mechanism, i think he chose to go into xalatath to escape a prison that might be holding him back or lets say it might limit his power if he escaped it? Or it could be that he went into xalatath to infiltrate the titans ranks, since they were pumping azeroth with void maybe if someone used xalatath and stabbed a titan or if the titan used xalatath or held it he might be able to posses/influence the titan to create a void/dark titan to help them? Im not entirely sure but to me escaping from the Titan made prison into xalatath which is a void artifact that the old gods know about much more than titan creation would make sense because he might be able to deal with their creation with less difficulty than a titan one, thats what i personally think.
And thank you for these wonderful videos!
I think the Old Gods are gone from Azeroth, but there are other ways the Void could become the next big threat. There are still Void cultists on Azeroth. But if there is a fifth Old God, it's likely Xal'atath. There are many hints, such as Xal'atath referring to the Old Gods as "us". She's either an Old God who went rogue, and was imprisoned in the blade, or she's messanger of Void.
When Xal'athat said "The shadows guide you friend, we will meat again. I'm certain of it." Maybe they weren't talking to the player, but to N'zoth.
Meat again. Kappa
You mean "meet" again.
@Nobbel87: Just curious, do you re-edit older videos when there is new information or information changes, or do you leave it to the upload date to serve as an indication of when that information was up to date and valid? I was just thinking that it might be helpful to add a quick disclaimer or simply just the present patch number in the video or in the description for users who may be confused now or in the future. The issue is not just for retcons, but for subject matter that is further clarified or added to within the game or novels.
He's made a couple of remakes, or new parts which add in new information, but it's not a regular thing. He always covers new lore and current content though, so his viewers should be mostly up to speed with new info and changes anyway.
"Why would N'zoth use his visions of the future to lose?" Because he had to lose, we are clearly a vital link in a chain of events that ultimately leads to the desired outcome of the old Gods. So if he had defeated us then , for example we would not have been able to go to the Shadowlands to defeat Jailer. If he had hidden from us that might have delayed our response to the threat coming from the Shadowlands, again leading to a possible undesired outcome. That leaves only two other options that I can see, N'zoth accepting his death or alternatively finding a way to cheat death so that the event takes place but he still survives the encounter. After all everyone thinking he is dead would take alot of pressure off , leaving him free to manipulate events from the Shadows because nobody is going to be looking for him if he is "dead".
Also if 5 old Gods were imprisoned doesn't that mean there were originally 6 since Y'shaarj was ripped from the planet before the imprisonment of the others?
The difference between C'thun and N'Zoth is that the whole patch we beat N'Zoth in was all about entering his visions that have no impact on the world. We gained our power from entering his visions that weren't real. Even in Nyalotha we were fighting enemies that were just visions. I think it makes more sense that we were tricked, than we beat an old god that even the Titans had to lock away. I thin N'Zoth saw the future, and decided to trick us, and by extension Magni, possibly so the titan defenses would drop without any old god threat left.
I am struggling to connect to what the 5th could be. I wonder if G'huun was made a longer time ago and only sprung into action during Uldir and he was the 5th that they refer to as they also knew it?
I also think that the loop causing the certain future of where Murozond goes has been closed but what stumps me is "Did Nozdormu have to go to a time period when the Old Gods were at their worst and corrupted him utterly?"
G'huun is a creation of the titans and their reasearch on the old gods, so he's an atrifical old god.
So if they end up calling him the fifth old god, it would be a redcon after they've already redconned alot of lore in order to make it align more with the future they had planned for the story.
The real kicker isnt G'huun tho, the kicker is it said they locked away 5 old gods. Before this we only knew of 4, 1 of which was killed by the Titans, so if they did lock up 5 that means they lied and Y'sharajj is still alive. Or even crazier if they told the truth that means they killed him and locked away 5 old gods which means there were originally 6 old gods.
"there's no more old gods on azeroth"
"the king of diamonds has been made a pawn"
Love how Warcraft cutscenes are like low budget machinima clips.
The note says 5 were imprisoned.
The 7-headed G.O.A.T. was flat out killed.
Raiders have dealt with 3.
I think there are 2 we haven't met yet.
In regards to Morozond. I feel like his experience of time is different and that perhaps while the old gods do not exist in the here and now, that does not necessarily mean that they are gone from what Nozdormu sees. It has been kinda hinted at that he can not see everything and especially that he can only if barely see what the old gods are doing, so what if the old gods would find a way to only show Nozdormu a certain past, a specific moment, one possible future, but that one is assumed by Nozdormu to be the true one since he can see it and that does not necessarily have to happen in our time. Its more like 5 dimensional time at this point
I would love to see the whiteboard of the core story team :D
I lowkey hope the old gods are not defeated yet and we will see a more powerful version, a end game of sorts where they do justice to their power
I just saw something like this! Darnassus 54.27 38.45 “the old gods and the ordering of Azeroth” page 5
“The pantheon shattered the old gods’ citadels and chained the five evil gods far beneath the surface of the world”
I think the “defeats” of C’thun and Yogg Saron are that we destroyed their consciousness and they slipped into comas. With their minds annihilated their bodies were left to remain, and their remnant power was taken by N’Zoth when he was released hence why Magni said all corruption was gone, as all focuses and anchors of the Void Lords and the Old Gods
7:35. I'm assuming this is from a quest chain?
It doesn't matter what Magni said, because the King of Diamonds has been made a pawn.
5th Old God leading a Black Empire invasion from the Southern half of the world would make sweet expansion. They could use it as another catalyst to update older zones that are now under attack by emperial forces.
1. Primalists need to get into the Emerald Dream freeing the 5th old god which is imprisoned in G'Hanir the Mother Tree
2. Iridikron uses the powers of the Old god to empower himself becoming Galakrond.
3. Iridikron infused Nozdormu with Dark water to corrupt him. Nozdormu sends Galakrond into the past in one last act of desparation and then becomes corrupted shattering the timeways
4. We witness the Dawn of the Aspects and fight Galakrond similar to how Broxigar fought Sargeras during the War of the Ancients.
5. We fight Murozond and work towards restoring the Timeways with Chromie and the Bronze Dragonflight. The weakened Murozond is banished to the End Time closing the loop and Chromie becomes the new Aspect of Time.
6. The Light invades our Timeline since we have been messing with time.
There was five old gods for quite some time (in Wrath, there were still five old gods, as I remember) - it was comparatively recent retcon to make only four.
So I think it is simple writing mistake, or typo.
Strange note, btw - I mean, we already had been familiarized with all Titans actions etc.
We found out about YSharaj being just ripped away from the planet's crust, and defeated all remainings of him - in MoP.
We killed Cthun and Yogg-Saron long time ago - Classic/Wotlk respectively.
We know who backed Deathwing in Cataclysm. The only remaining, at that point in time, Old God - NZoth.
But Dragonflight plots are pretending like we weren't aware about arrival of Titans and their actions back then.
Also the phrasing is so blunt, I just cant - "peace" in quotes, "oppression", "Titans couldn't bind corruption".
I mean - Titans have like half a dozen "reset" buttons all over Azeroth. We barely managed to convince Algalon the Observer to not hit one of those, back then. What does it mean with "couldn't bind" - they actually did bind them, it lasted for tenths of thousands of years at very least. Only after world-breaking Sundering, and after TItans were apprehended by Sargeras somewhere far-far away, making it so that no one checked on Titan-keepers and no one provided powers to sustain them - only then the Old Gods started to make commotions again.
And TItans "oppressed" only the Old Gods and their servants - because they were aggressive and twisted planet's initial state to some horrific version.
Azeroth is btw also a titan, so a creature of Order, in general.
I don't get these weak-ass tries from plot to force a simplistic notion:
- "Titans and their powers were deceptive and malitios all along, guys, wake up!"
Because, khm, they actually aren't. At least it is not for anyone from Old Gods to lecture us about it.
Metaphorically speaking - the gardener would not ask each earthworm or insect one-by-one, whether it wants to go to strawberries bushes today or not. It simply puts him in the earth nearby the bush - so worm would be provided with food.
In the end, it is beneficial for all parties involved, even if those parties don't comprehend it at all.
I'm discouraged by how many "hints" in the game now feel less like actual clues to future story and more like potential options, if that makes sense. As if they're leaving breadcrumbs but really have no clue where they're going.
The lore in BFA states that in the research facility, Uldir, the Titans accidentally created a 5th old god, G'hunn. I am pretty sure that is the 5th old god they were talking about. That being said I doubt the whispers of the old gods are done for and with Xalatath still being around and other void cultists there is no doubt going to still be influence from the Void Lords in future updates or expansions.
I can see that.
Them saying there’s 5 old gods makes me think they’re trying to hide the fact that they created the fifth old god, and are trying to make it seem like G’huun was always there.
I'm not done watching, but I will for sure love this video
Det är alltid ett nöje att se ditt innehåll! Ja, jag hör att du är från Finland så! Ville bara berätta att ditt lugnande talande är väldigt tilltalande så tack!
He’s dutch actually, not finnish
Hey Nobble.
Thanks again for a fun, entertaining and enlightening episode.
My friend and I had a lengthy discussion about all of this and some of the topics for the future of this expansion. As well as the possible expansion after this one.
And there is something that you, and many other’s haven’t mentioned or delved into, that my friend and I are almost sure of.
Mind you, this is all hear say and speculation; but it is the most conclusive answer in my mind.
When N’Zoth is speaking to us in the past, when we go time hopping. He mentions many things. One thing that stuck out to my friend, that I agree with. Is the “Blind Queen.”
And, without going into every single detail of what we discussed and to cut to the chase.
And to make this relevant to this video:
Couldn’t the “Blind Queen,” be Alexstraza? And couldn’t N’zoth technically come back in some way with her life binder aspectual powers?
Couldn’t this, have been N’Zoth’s plan all along? To make us think we’ve won. Only to come back, just as Tyr is trying to do?
Couldn’t this lead “Path to the deep places of the earth.” Lead her to “Corrupted Waters?” Where N’Zoth can influence her mind?
What if as we chase after Irridikron, that the truth of what Tyr had done with them and the Incarnates. Drive Alexstraza into doubting what she believed, and make it easier for her to be turned into something for N’Zoth’s rebirth or return?
Could these things I mentioned, be the very things that finally turn Norzdormu, into Murezond?
That this is the terrible thing that happens, that he so desperately goes back and tries to prevent?
What if?! The infinite Dragon flight was right all along?!
What of we are eventually going to have to time hop as well. And destroy and restore things to a better future?!
What are your thoughts on these theories?
I have more to add. But this is the crusp of what my friend and I discussed.
we have always thought there should be a 5 old god so this dose kinda make sence and also back in i forget which expansion there was talk that the shadow priest knife was the fifth old god that somehow got cast down by the other 4
I think it depends on how many expansions are still to come. Because at some point they will run out of really bad villains and then someone will rummage around in a drawer and pull out a note that says 5 old gods
Love the Content Nobbel,
Just wanted to put my 2 cents in about it, have been thinking alot about this, so When they write that they imprisoned the 5 old gods on Azeroth, would this be after the titans rip Y'shaarj out of the planet, only to realise they cannot do this them selfs and having to create the keepers to fight against the Old Gods? If so does that mean that there could be 2 more old gods still imprisoned in Azeroth? In saying that If Xal'atath counts as a Old God then there could be one more old God still unknown, but that's If they are counting Xal'atath.
The answer is even simpler: Y'shaarj did not exist yet when they wrote that lore. If they updated the text it would say they imprisoned three Old Gods. Back when this was written, Titans were considered smaller and weaker than Old Gods (in new lore they're basically replaced by their Keepers), the Eredar were evil before Sargeras, the Shadowlands were a deathly reflection of Azeroth, Suramar was a lifeless ruin recently raised from the ocean floor, and demons stayed dead when killed.
So don't think too hard about it. :D The in-game books are now more like meant to reflect what the people of Azeroth knew (or thought they knew) back then.
N'zoth realized there is no real future that allows him to fully 'win' Azeroth in the traditional sense. He can't overpower the adventurers who have been accumulating more and more power that each of the most seasoned ones are miniature demigods or one-man armies now. Even his 'visions of the future' was a means to an end: he needed to appear and present a reasonable threat to make adventurers enter N'yalotha to fight him. He could've killed the Horde and Alliance that had gathered on the platform just above his prison, but chose not to, instead just grabbing Azshara as partially bait/revenge; and even she has a part to play. He let her keep the knife, he gave her the motivation to enlist the adventurers to 'kill' him with it, and now she's bamfed off to whereever the Void Lords are, literally carrying a bit of him with her, and we're prolly see her again too. He's basically realized the 'soft' approach works best cos we adventurers are experts at smacking things down the hard way.
The 5 old gods line is also verbatim in the Warcraft 3 manual, interestingly enough.
It makes sense to have 4 Old Gods for each of the 4 Elemental Lords.
Having a fifth would be rather messy, seeing as the only place we haven't seen one is Eastern Kingdoms, but... under Tirisfal? I find that hard to believe. If they TRULY wanted to do a fifth Old God, it should be... where? If we say Tirisfal, then I SUPPOSE it would make some sense that the Forsaken felt no effects, but what of all the non-Forsaken? What about under Blackrock Mountain? Well, then why did that Old God take over the Dark Iron Dwarves and Ragnaros? Alright, how about Stranglethorn Vale or Duskwood? Well, wouldn't Hakkar have some feeling of an Old God nearby or wouldn't the living races be taken by the Old God's powers?
A fifth Old God seems to have no good place on the last continent unless it WILLING prevented its corrupting influence from twisting the minds of mortals around it. But if that Old God decided to bide its time, would it be smarted than N'zoth? The - arguably - wisest Old God? It just doesn't make sense.
Well N'zoth was just thrown deep in the ocean so maybe Vashjir has an old god or even Hyjal.
If the line "The king of diamonds has been made a pawn." does mean magni then it would explain why he would tell us we've succeeded.
Love your videos nobble, do you have any ideas on what your going to do for 1m on your channel?
"the old gods are not gone"
nobbel: that seems vauge.
If they do something cool it could be that Azeroth is something we've never seen before. I've seen theories of Old God, Titan, even a prime elemental, but it'd be really cool if it was something else entirely. My big question is why is there the veil around Azeroth that keeps our souls in? Is that just a biproduct of keeping Azeroth's soul dormant? It seems like Azeroth is it's own prison, the prison was constructed by the titans and they don't want anyone to know what Azeroth really is.. even the Old Gods had no clue what they found on the planet and what they were tapping into. It'd be AMAZING if Azeroth turns out to be the ultimate evil in the universe and Yrel and alternate Xe'ra show up and being the supposed goody two shoes light pawns they break the chains and set Azeroth free only to unleash a being of destruction unlike anything anyone's ever seen before and they all get blinked out of existence and even Sargeras has NOTHING on Azeroth.
Personally, I still want to see what's on the other side of Azeroth.. There's still 2/3's of the planet we've never seen.
personally i don't want a 5th old gods, N'Zoth, Yogg, Y'Shaarj and C'Thun are already establish and loved by the community. and i'm afraid of another Jailer kinda story where "it was the 5th all along!!" plus a black empire expansion is my dream, old gods lore was always my favorite.
The way us "killing" old gods always comes off to me is that we're only killing a part of them or an avatar, then they wait and regrow their power in their prison. When they feel powerful enough to do so they manifest a physical avatar or another piece of themselves.
A lot of my thoughts on them would come down to how they're imprisoned. Idk if they're in a constructed building underground or just buried.
cosmic beings go back to their cosmic plane when defeated in the material plane, so we just sent them back to the void
My hopes for the future, Xalatash is the 5th old god. In a shocking turn of events, the other 4 old gods became rogue agents upon landing on Azeroth (as they wanted to cultivate the world soul in their own way). So they turned on Xalatash and banished her from breaking everything. Now the "benevolent" old gods are gone and the one true old god has left and gone back to the void. Just like Sargeras, they now know of the exact location of our ripe planet.
i loved the nyalotha patch of BfA and i loved everything it added relating to n'zoth
i just wish there had been more
i would have loved an entire expac just relating to fighting him
I just got back to wow after 6 year break. Which creature un darkshore are you referring to?
Nzoth is still in every hero trinket bag that completed the quest that a single nowhere troll could remove nzoth influence from the char.
I really think we're going to see the end of the old aspects, minus Ysera. She already died. I really think the only things that would cause Noz to become Mor is the death of Alex. Her death might even relate to whatever villany Tyr has in store.
Like i think somehow one of the old gods could of kind of fooled us, like us going into the past to save Cromie could of sent things into motion, like N`Zoth himself could of looked into our minds, which could of set the whole reason on why he "knew" us, though at that timeline it could of slightly confused him onto just how he knew us, but realized there was a connection. and since that was way back than he could of conjured up a plan of some kind to give the old gods the best chance of suceeded, even if he wasn't in it. Like we alrdy know everything that was written isn't all true by the titan's so it like okay what isn't than, and i got a good feeling it's something huge, something even the titan's want to remain hidden though know eventually it will come to light, like it could of been instead of them failing to remove Y'shaari from Azeroth, maybe one of the Titan's got wounded and fell into the void trying to remove her, and they just rewrote the books and not mention the Titan at all so no know would be the wiser.
1 of 2 things will happen:
1: there is another old god so deep, we will only know it when is about to corrupt Azeroth. (if Blizz ever wants to go there, it would kinda introduce the end of WOW)
2: the voidlords infused what sword with an old god... and yeah.. would that not be ironic for Sargeras?
What about G'huun, from Uldir, doesn't it count as the Fifth Old God?
no its titan created
did not exist at the age of the black empire; was made later
with time travel and multie dimensions, speculation about the lore becomes a lot less fun.
but if they ever intended to bring this whole shenanigans to an end they need the void to some extend. though I'd be more interested what the elemental lords have to do with or say about these Protodragons
Mists of Pandaria was such a rad expansion
I never thought the Old Gods were gone. I hope they aren't. How can they be when we still see their influence in multiple tiny places? Maybe I'm wrong. I think they put an end to a particular chapter of the Old Gods' story, but there is definitely more they can pull from if they want.
*Puts the nerd hat on* The Old Gods seem to work the same as the demons of Wow. Our Old Gods would want to come back just like the Legion did. There is no reason to think they would just get defeated and deal with it. Especially since the leaders of the Void no doubt know what Azeroth is. Anyway, sorry to type so much. Rant over :)
Only logical explanation. Madness, the moment Nerzoth escaped everyone on Azeroth lost his senses. Every expansion afterwards was just a vison of Nerzoth. That option is always there and I think it is a good one in this case. ;-)
It's maybe possible that Xal'atath is a conscious fragment of a 5th "dead" old god, who can only become whole by being rejoined with the body
I like that Idea. I thought of Something similar. Additionally, I thought that this old gods Body is in fact the curse of flesh. The god escaped His prison by disolving His Body and this old god Body essence sweeping over azeroth caused the curse.
This would make the Goal of this god to absorb all the Biomass on azeroth to rebuild his Body.
Kind of Like the tyrranids from 40k :D
Xala'tath: We may face some of my brethren in this conflict... a prospect that delights me. Their power will be mine! They will pay for what was done to me long ago.
I wouldn’t be opposed to there being a 5 old god, but the book was mistaken when it stated it was chained to the planet. What if it had escaped during the Titan’s subjugation and only acts as an observer to report back to the Void lords? They could then easily make that a names character we already know, but would have never expected since it was their job to always observe but never interfere.
With Mangi saying that the Old Gods are cleansed. Do we not remember "The King of Diamonds has been made a Pawn" I don't think we have seen a major payoff for this line, and even if it have, why would his corruption just end?
From the earth he draws strength. Our earth. Our strength.
It will be a marketing nightmare, but it'd be awesome to know an expansion is coming but to have no clue about anything related to it and suddenly on day 1, we log into a Black empire Azeroth and we are enslaved or something. It will also be a developer nightmare, but cool af.
what if tyrhold is a prison for a old god and his body is how tyr use to mutate the dragons? i think tyrhold contains more experiments by tyr with both curse of flesh and dragonoid fusions.
i think theres more to the vault of the incarnate due to its proximity to tyrhold.
i think the vault was constructed to contain other dragons. just in case the aspect rebel as well.
Perhaps when players defeat the Old Gods in raids, it does more than just "break their Avatar and force them back into their prison". Perhaps doing so injures them enough that they basically withdraw to lick their wounds and rebuild their power. I would interpret the discussion with Magni to be that it's the first time in ages that they've all been withdrawn that much, which has allowed the /World Spirit/ - who is now at least semi-conscious - to be freed from their influence. That doesn't mean that the physical planet of Azeroth (which I don't think is _quite_ the same thing as its World Spirit / Titan Soul) is completely free of them.
Didnt they chain them after Y'sharj was killed? Meaning 2 extra old gods we dont know about?
Wasnt like Ilgynoth the Old God as well? He labored on Emerald Nightmare exclusively
Xal'atath said something about 'my brothers' and teased us about something else we don't know(when she said the old god names and then stopping and saying that only one will consume the world)...I think it's clear it has something to do with her
i really loooove that idea "shadowlands never happened". where do i sigh? 😊
For the bit about Chronicle here blizzard sort of soft retconned it by emphesizing that it is written by the titans or atleast is from the titans perspective, so naturally that would also say that if the person writing notes in the in game book says that it is propaganda/lies that also means the chronicles can also lie.
Oh man I cant wait for Legion 2!
i think the fact he recognizes us in the past means we will be going back in time again. i honestly think we will be alongside an old god in a final patch to fight against whatever dragon. nzoth is the old god with the most personality and i dont see us fighting him again. going back in time and having him being a rep would explain why he recognizes us when the elementals are fighting the old gods.
so we would have to go back to a time before that. im assuming the infinite dragonflight will be doing something super evil near the beginning of azeroth's time? or someone using infinite dragonflight abilities
I definitely don't have any proof, but considering Neltharion's Old God influence, and the fact that the Primal Incarnate of earth, Iridikron, is the most powerful of their group, I think we'll probably see more Old God content in Dragonflight. At least from a story telling perspective, it seems to make a lot of sense.