Some friends and I do a table top Roleplay set in the TNG era and that is a line we pulled out, haha. "A valid point Admiral, but you are a guest star and the main cast is talking."
You forgot one thing in the recap of The Pegasus... during one of the commercial breaks, Riker and Troi popped off to the holodeck to run some Archer/T'pol fanfic...
Clayton Berg It would make sense because it's another story about lovers from very different worlds, with the female having a very formal, interfering family. If Troi wanted to roleplay she might even try being a Vulcan because she's so emotional and they are so logical.
You must be mistaken, that never happened. If that had happened it would have been really stupid and ruined the Pegasus. Fortunately it didn't happen. You are mistaken. :)
@@claytonberg721 interestingly, its established that 23rd century holographic information wasn't very accurate in DS9 in the Tribble episode. Ie, Kirk didn't look like his picture. Yet the people seen in this holodeck program representing even older people are exact matches for what we have seen on the entire Enterprise show. This suggests that the show was its self a holodeck program representing the events and people of that era with some level of error. That also falls in line with the idea that TOS is a not so accurate representation of what those events looked like, something pushed by Roddenberry himself.
"Some of it was so bad that they even bothered to teach us about it in school." That made me laugh really hard, then it made me really depressed. Thanks, Steve.
I assume you're talking about the Trail of Tears? President Andrew Jackson ordered the Cherakees to leave their land. The Tribe appealed the order to the Supreme Court and won, but Jackson shot back, the Indians have their ruling from SCOTUS, but let's see if SCOTUS can enforce it." Naturally, SCOTUS has no enforcement tools, so the Cherakees still have to pack up and leave their land, and along the way, they lose quite a few tribal members because of the terrain and weather. A truly bad episode in American history by a bad 19th century president. He also destroyed the Bank of the United States.
"It's Captain Picard day, number one....... Please , put that Captain Picard doll down." " Oooh Captain, I'd just for once wanted you to be my puppet."
"I let him get away with it and I don't hold it agaisnt him, because he's one of my favourite characters... That's how bias works." Mr. Shives, you have created yet another quote that I will probably use frequently in the future.
When you think about it, the Admirals breaking the rules (and principals) of the Federation for what they see as the greater good makes total sense given what we've seen of Star Trek's captains. They're constantly pulling that sort of shit at a lower level, and in the end an Admiral comes along and says "You broke all the rules but, goddamnit, you did good. I'm gonna give you a slap on the wrist that's actually secretly a promotion or whatever." If your captains have that sort of space-hero-cowboy-batman culture, it's going to be reflected in the admiralty as well, but the admirals have even fewer checks on their behavior and fewer people willing or able to stand up to them and say the ends don't justify the means.
Yeah pretty much. I mean Starfleet training literally has, in the Kobayashi Maru scenario, breaching the Romulan treaty as a training scenario for every would-be Captain. The clear message is that "if you can get away with it, it's fine".
I never thought about it this way, but you are 100% correct. You reap what you sow, and Starfleet makes a concerted effort to create an individualist midset in its officers. Even Picard does this, telling Data (paraphrased) "some of the greatest tragedies in our history happened because "I was only following orders" was more important than thinking through the issue at hand". When that's the message you're sending to every officer, the only surprise is that Starfleet isn't in a constant state of mutiny.
And that puts Starfleet between a rock and a hard place. If they simply follow orders, by the time they're admirals they would commit genocide without questioning it, just because it comes from above. And if they support individual thinking, by the time they're admirals they do whatever they want, because free thinking is encouraged.
I would never have included Nechayev because in the end she and Picard ended up, maybe not liking each other, but respecting each other. So I’m glad you DIDN’T include her. Yet again, another great video!
"Starfleet does not want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation." This is where it comes from. Starfleet wants free-thinkers who will take the initiative and do what they think is right regardless of what they're told. Sometimes this creates utter mavericks who are genuinely morally-superior heroes like Jean-Luc. However, sometimes enough pats on the head will turn an otherwise innocuous but ambitious officer into someone who thinks they truly know what's best, not just for the present situation but for the galactic situation as a whole, and they've been conditioned to think the rules don't apply to them so long as they're doing what they think is best.
I'm sure there are quite a few of these admirals who did what they did thinking they were justified due to their feelings they had the moral High Ground. During the last election I saw a video where two women in their twenties were arguing with a woman because she supported Trump. Then they ripped this six year old boy's hat off his head because it was a MAGA hat and wouldn't give it back to him. They ran and played keep away with it as he begged and cried. Finally they threw it on the ground and stomped on it and as the six-year-old was crying, the mother who was recording the whole thing while chasing after them looked at them and said "look at what you just did to my six-year-old son what is wrong with you!" Their response was "Well you shouldn't be raising him to be a trump supporter!" as if anyone who supported Trump was an evil monster and therefore they had the moral right to do whatever they wanted because said person was a trump supporter even if it was a six-year-old boy.
And both, blindly following orders, and acting independently, has it's issues. And both have shown that people will to right and wrong things with either system.
@@glennwilliams2950 should look into how Lore Reloaded on YT interprets Janeway and her mental journey & morals leading up to the feud with Ransom in Voyager.
Admiral Nechayev is honestly one of my favorite admirals in all of Starfleet, I adore her. I wish we got to see more of her overall. Then Admiral Forrest on ENT. ALso, I love see John Locke as an Admiral. Is he gonna rant about the numbers?
Even in season 7, the Voyager crew still treats the Doctor differently. Seven turns him off, apparently mid-sentence, in "Imperfection". What kind of trouble would she get in if she knocked out, say, Tom? In "Lineage", B'Elanna reprograms the Doctor to make him operate on her unborn baby, and we don't see her punished. She does apologize to the Doctor at the end of the episode, but, again, imagine how serious the consequences would be if B'Elanna altered a biological crew member's brain to make them do something against their will. I'm not surprised the Doctor used the crew's likenesses in "Author, Author".
And the Doctor being able to control his shutdown function was pretty much the first personal freedom he gained on the ship. Exactly so that people don't turn him off in the middle of work, or to keep him running all night without anything to do.
No mention of the fact that apparently Admiral Cartwright apparently escapes justice, changes his name to Joseph Sisko and retires to run a Creole restaurant?
Something quite hilarious about Admiral Satie is how easily she is baited into exposing her true colours by a bit of jabbing from Picard. Is that all it takes? If so, she's not exactly a cunning mastermind.
I think it would have been a nice bit of continuity is Admiral Clancy had actually been Admiral Nechayev. It would have added a lot more weight to the scenes between the Admiral and Picard if we actually knew the history between them. Both Patrick Stewart and Ann Magnuson do a good job and have enough chemistry to make the idea of their characters having a history, but I would love to have seen Natalia Nogulich reprise her role. Nechayev was a character I loved to hate, and is probably my favorite admiral, evil or otherwise.
I never looked at Nechayev as a villain per se or even a rogue admiral. If anything she was buttoned-up Starfleet to the core. She was always willing to do what was right for Starfleet without compromising the values of Starfleet, even if it went against the wishes and desires of captains like Picard or Sisko.
I've had bosses like Nechayev. Between her and JAG's Admirals Chegwidden and Boone, I would have chosen to work for Chegwidden or Boone. Screw the Nechayev boss clones who deserve not to be preserved in my memory.
Oh yes, she is. She portrays a bureaucrat I have little respect for and hasn't promoted anybody to a starship captaincy or a rear admiral for several years. She's nothing more than a high-level Starfleet bureaucrat sitting at a desk at Starfleet HQ, staring at a computer monitor filled with figures. She's not out there among the stars and planets, commanding squadrons of ships, a starbase, or helping negotiate a prisoner exchange between the Cardassians and the Feds.
She did her job. That's it. There is no reason for everyone in Starfleet to be best friends. Could she be nicer? Sure. But there is no reason for it. If any, she lost contact to the frontier a bit and acted from her office back home.
@@gustafsone The framing device for "These Are the Voyages... " (the actual finale of Enterprise) was Riker on the holodeck experiencing some of the last adventures of the NX-01. All set during Pressman's visit to the Enterprise D for the Pegasus mission.
Your polls absence Admiral Cartwright, in my opinion, was a huge oversight. His betrayal is one of the most egregious for my view at least. He conspired to assassinate the federation president, the Klingon Chancellor, and start a war! His actions might not have been as self serving as some of the others, but still pretty evil Love the videos Steve, thank you for the entertainment and introspective
Agreed. I'd say the same for Admiral Dougherty from Star Trek: Insurrection. That plan to uproot the Ba'ku without their knowledge to leverage their planet's rings was diabolical. I can't imagine how bad things would've gotten for them as they started aging again, and that's assuming no other side effects.
"read the jersey, I'm team Picard" omg, Steve, your comedic timing and writing has me laughing out loud to the point I was coughing. brilliant, and thank-you. omg... so funny
The Cardassians had the same problem with Gul Dukat Day. Then they instituted a discriminatory no half-Bajorans ban, which cut the number of entries by 70% to a more easily manageable 50K+
@@Timmersan Oh jeez, the thought just occurred... what if Dukat had so many kids that he lost track & accidentally... nope I'm not finishing that sentence.
Just how many kids did Will Riker sire, and with whom--besides Deanna Troi? The alien kid in "Past Imperfect" doesn't count, nor does that 10 YO kid in "The Child". He didn't spend enough time with either Ro ("Conundrum"), the alien woman from "The Game," Soran from the "The Outcast", or Beate from "Angel One" to procreate much less help the mothers deal with their pregnancies.
I always found it fascinating that the episode that introduced Section 31 and indicted the existence of this shadowy organization dedicated to doing anything to preserve the Federation... was immediately followed by "In the Pale Moonlight" showing a good man like Capt Sisko falling prey to that exact sort of logic in his endeavor to bring the Romulans into the war.
Personally, I always enjoyed Nachayev. She was just a hardass who was perfectly pleasant but needed things to get done. I think starfleet sent her out specifically because once a decision was made, she delivered the orders with a minimum of argument, whether she agreed or not, she'd run the play. Clancy, I think was just dealing with a jaded starfleet and jaded Federation council and had very little wiggle room. And Clancy I liked alot otherwise :) She also was no nonsense. But when she had the opportunity to flex, look at the task force she shipped out.. That was over 300ships and on short notice.. probably out of the shipyards on other worlds because the implication was those ships were new.. She got the job done when she had the evidence to make it so.
Agreed. Clancy was absolutely correct in turning down Picard's request. He was arrogant to think he could dictate the terms of his reinstatement. Once he had evidence she mobilized the fleet. Similarly Nechayev had to make hard decisions. The peace treaty with Cardassia wasn't perfect, but the perfect is often the enemy of the good.
I didn't like her because she was a hard ass, i have an issue with athority heh. But i 'm just going to have to come to grips with being misogynist i guess now /shrug.
Ya know, when I was a kid I didn't like her because she was "mean" to Picard as an adult I like her more. She was spot on about what they should've done with Hugh. If they were going to let him go back it should've at least accomplished something for the safety of the Federation!
Characters have been re writing history for most of the franchise. And given what we know about timetravel and parallel timelines in star trek she likely didn't erase her own timeline, she simply ensured there was a timeline where things went better.
Characters have been re writing history for most of the franchise. And given what we know about timetravel and parallel timelines in star trek she likely didn't erase her own timeline, she simply ensured there was a timeline where things went better.
I don't remember where, but I saw an excerpt of an interview with Natalia Nogulich where she said that she's been told Nechayev is sometimes pointed to by genuine military brass as a model for how to interact with subordinates. I've never seen her as evil, or even really antagonistic -- just a device for creating narrative and thematic constraints. She's actually high on my list of desired returning characters. I would like to see her as a top Starfleet admiral, or even Starfleet C&C.
That's the thing that vexed me too. I haven't rewatched _TNG_ in some time, but I don't really remember her as being even antagonistic, let alone villainous. Yet so many brought her up as a potential example. I always saw her as a rather firm, but usually fair, military top-brass.
@@scaper8 In the episode that introduces Hugh she shows up at the end to reprimand Picard for not committing an act of genocide and orders him to never let an opportunity to completely destroy the Collective go by.
@@candopoc She's also the one who puts Jellico in command of the Enterprise, and she's also the one who orders Picard to carry out a forced relocation in Journey's End.
Worst evil admiral as in the most evil or the worst in the sense of being sucky at being an evil admiral? The former is stiff competition. The latter has to be Admiral Dougherty from Star Trek: Insurrection. He was totally ineffectual at being a bad guy.
@@JJMHigner Oh, yeah. Good old Anthony Zerbe. He played General Grant in the North and South Book 2 Miniseries in the mid-80s and the sarcastic police officer who disliked David Janssen's private detective character, Harry Orwell in the eponymous drama.
The whole idea of the Federation not accepting the sentience and personhood of androids while also looking on in awe and bending over backwards for every random blinking fart cloud or invisible space ghost always felt like either an active choice to point out hypocrisy or bad writing. I could never decide which.
Thank you about Picard and his relationship with kids!!! My thoughts exactly! His bond with Elnor makes perfect sense to me at this moment in his life... and even though he did "get" to be a father in Inner Light, he didn't get to be one in his "real" life.
I actually liked the term rogue admiral's instead of evil admirals. The reason for this is that every one of the admirals mentioned had the good of Starfleet and the federation as a whole at heart when they began to use unorthodox methods to accomplish their goals. The term "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind here. For Preston's it was the development of a defensive system that he viewed as capable of saving thousands, if not millions, of federation live, and for Leyton it was the threat of a war with the dominion that made him act irrationally. The only truely evil admiral I can see is commodore Oh who we found out was actually a romulan agent, and even she had reasons for what she did, albeit not very good ones.
For sentient holograms you forgot the first who was also a complete accident... Moriarty ... who was created by one misplaced word in Elementary, Dear Data and then in essence, escapes his captors control (some would even say slavery) in Ship in a Bottle. While being recognised by some of the crew he never gained any real rights
Pressman wasn't evil, he must have had the backing of Starfleet to get as far as he could, one admiral could not have created a phase cloak and acquired a ship without at least it being signed off because 100's of people must have been involved. The pegasus is more proof that Starfleet is not above secret operations that contravene agreements (not unlike real world counties)
He even had the explicit support of Starfleet Command and Starfleet Intelligence for the salvage mission. Which IMO makes it all the more arrogant of Picard to think he could interfere with it. Stories like this make it obvious that some of those writers have no idea how a real military would actually work.
Cartwright did the right thing. Picard is so juvenile and pollyannish sometimes. Picard should have destroyed the Borg, he shouldn't have needed to be tricked to destroy the crystalline entity and he shouldn't have turned Cartwright in. Did we have a treaty when he violated Cardassian space to perform a secret mission? What's the difference? How many times has he went into the neutral zones or sent spies to various places in violation of treaties? Remember Lower decks? Does he think all of our spies like the Romulan General are wrong because it violates a treaty?
@@glennwilliams2950 Do you mean Pressman? Cartwright is the admiral from Star Trek VI that plotted to assassinate the Klingon chancellor and Federation President.
I actually liked Admiral Nechayev. She represents the hard nosed “big picture” bureaucracy in Starfleet. Too bad she only made a few appearances in DS9. It would’ve been interesting to see how she would handle the situation with Bajor and the Dominion.
I would have happily traded Admiral Ross for Nechayev. He wasn't bad or anything. Just kind of milquetoast. Nechayev could have held her own against Sisko better. The other option would have been to just promote Sisko to a Rear Admiral. He basically ran the offensive during the sixth and seventh seasons.
Nechayev would've been the perfect opponent for Leyton. One want's to run a military coup because he thinks the civilian government isn't doing enough against the Dominion. The other supports the existing structures with no jokes. Those two arguing in Starfleet HQ over how to protect the Federation would've been great.
Well, I've always seen Starfleet/United Federation of Planets/Star Trek as an allegory for our own society. So of course it's flawed because we're flawed. If it was perfect you wouldn't have as good a platform for those storylines that expose that, and since Star Trek has a history of moral storytelling, showing our own failings is a major part of the show as a whole. Because afterall, this society of ours has a long history already and we're just starting to deal with only some of the issues Star Trek raised over 20 years ago. Is it beyond the pale to suppose that there are still hurdles to negotiate for centuries to come? It shows what history tells us, that we as a society can move forward but it's always at the pace of the least willing to change.
OK, but also being fair about the reactions people had to Necheyev, people despised Captain Jellico (remember him from the first Trek, Actually?), despite being a seemingly good officer and captain, one dealing with a tense situation, doing the best he could. But, he butted heads with our series regulars, so much of the audience hated him. That's how a lot of people react to antagonistic, but not necessarily villainous, characters regardless of gender.
@@Blasted2Oblivion pretty sure that little prison is going to be put on a shelf and forgotten about, like how Moriarty's program just languished in some folder for half a decade until Barklay stumbled upon it. 😔 Also, a prison is still a prison, even if you are fooled into believing it is not.
if you are going to go down the "wrong thing for the right reason" path you then need to start looking at all the times the main crews chose to ignore the prime directive for various reasons... or 101 things that Janeway is actually guilty of
Steve, since you're taking about them doing evil things for the right reasons, you should talk about the depths they wentto during the dominion war. Mainly the episodes Inter Arma einem silent legis and In the pale moonlight.
There was also that time in S3 of TOS where Kirk and Spock violate treaties to fly into Romulan space and steal a cloaking device at Starfleets order. An act of war by any measure.
Please read the ST TOS novel "The Romulan Way" (written by Diane Duane) to see what happens to Bones McCoy, who was declared a war criminal to stand trial on Romulus for his role in "The Enterprise Incident": he disguised Kirk as a Romulan so that he could sneak aboard a Romulan ship to steal their cloaking device.
The Federation has always been, among other things, a stand-in for the United States. It's easier to do evil when you have always believed your nation to be exceptionally, even uniquely, good.
I was thinking the opposite applied: The UFP is more like a stronger UN, while Starfleet is a very powerful global Navy to threaten rogue countries like Cuba and North Korea. Ditto for doing the same to China, Russia, Iran and Al-Qaeda and ISIS.
I recently re-watched "Journey's End" and a scene with Nechayev struck me. Picard calls her up to discuss the situation and ask for the Federation Council to intervene. Nechayev tells him she already tried and the answer was, "No." It's late season 7 at this point, so we're conditioned to think, "Okay, but we know Picard is likely to ignore that and do the right thing anyway. Since she didn't do that she's Eeeeeeeeeevil!" But, first, Picard doesn't quite do that, rather he fumbles the situation, and a rather crappy compromise is reached, one that is the impetus for the Marquis, actually. Yes, she does tell Picard in "Descent" that he screwed up with Hugh and should NEVER pass up an opportunity to take out the Borg, no matter how much they are turning the drone they rescued into the Enterprise's pet, I mean real person who should have the right to be an independent person. But, again, it comes across as more of Starfleet's position than her striking out on her own accord.
She was right about Hugh though. They should've sent him back with a virus to cripple the Borg, if they just had to let him go back. Or otherwise don't allow him to go back, and allow him to be further rehabilitated. They didn't do either very well.
Picard uses diplomacy to convince Nacheyev, and she tells him, she tried the same already. So the point where the Federation seems to order the obviously evil thing, she is totally on Picard's side, but also respects the chain of command. The situation with Hugh is quite different. As viewers we meet him the same moment the crew meets him, and they develop a relationship. Even his will to return to the Borg, despite all their attempts to convince him otherwise. But at no point tries anyone to force him to stay. Necheyev didn't have that development with Hugh. She knows how dangerous the Borg are, that there is a unique chance to seriously cripple this foe that can't be reasoned with. In some way, she is right in demanding the use of Hugh as a weapon.
Great summary of The Pegasus (one of my favorite TNG episodes as well). Pressman's standing in your polls also indicates another layer of what makes his willfulness to shove aside law and morals so problematic: the fact that so many people are not likely to see it as a big deal. Keep up the fabulous work.
One thing that always struck me with starfleet admirals and the overall rank structure, there seems to be a glass ceiling based on race. Admiral: Human mostly or Vulcan Captain: Human mostly or Vulcan Cdm: Human mostly or Vulcan Lt cdm and below: All welcome. It's for TV most likely so we can identify with characters, but it's not a good look 🤔😃
I agree. Although just for arguments sake, not counting alternate realities, we’ve seen a Bolian admiral (Homefront/Paradise Lost), Bolian Captain (Conspiracy), Benzite Captain (mentioned, Apocalyse Rising), plus assorted high ranking aliens in the council scenes of Star Trek IV. I dare say many of those that were just mentioned could have been non-human/Vulcan too.
Man I love watching you talk about Star Trek and the way you deliver your thoughts to us. You get so emotional and your facial expressions are hilarious. Nice job, son.
Oh shut up, she desroyed Borg and part of their network, saved Tuvok mental health, save 7of9 from death and Chakotay from sorrow, and voyager came back 7 years earlier. And that's all she did. She did not sacrify millions of people, that timeline never existed. Period.
To be honest, I find Clancy laying into Picard more amusing then anything else, especially after finishing the season. The first time I watched that, I was slightly pissed, but I also realized that Clancy, and by extension Starfleet, had no obligation to help Picard. Yes, it would have been nice if they did, but that's it. After finishing the season, I think back to the look on Picard's face as he is getting grilled, and I chuckle a bit. Patrick Stewart played that scene excellently. Also, when you did that misogynist joke near the end there, I literally laughed and called you an asshole. While laughing, don't want you to get the wrong idea.
How did Leton lose the poll? He tried - nearly succeed, in a coup of the federation goverment! Clearly the poll is being influenced by Changeling Spies! I would love to see you do a Trek Actually on all the bad admirals and the obvious institutional corruption in Starfleet. Loved this episode. The Anti-Hero Bad Admirals, Captains and politicians are one of my favorite tropes in Star Trek.
@@리주민 You're referring to the Maine-Missouri Compromise of 1819, correct? I'm glad you learned a little bit about American history in your school. What did you think about the Trail of Tears incident? Or the Donner Party cannabalism incident in the 1840s? How about the Dred Scott decision in 1857? Did you learn about that story?
Okay so while the main point of this video is great, I'm so happy to see someone putting the Picard series in the right context. It is VERY clear that, unlike Discovery's writers, the writers of the Picard series DID go back and extend from events established in Next Generation (and other Trek series, Voyager in particular). I hate that there are people who really going to shoot down anything new that's made regardless of whether it's well written or poorly written.
"I am proud to say that I've written another insane Admiral. They must put something in the water at Federation Headquarters." (Ronald D. Moore, Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages)
"I'm saying statistically you *probably* are a misogynist" Thank you, I laughed loud enough to startle my husband xD As a note, Nechayev came across to me as someone trying to handle the ethically and logistically messy and bloody business of an actively disputed military conflict zone who wasn't unfeeling, but she prioritized the logistics. I feel like if you got her alone, she'd admit that she thought it was good to have soft hearts on the ground level but expected captains and up to act on the hard-edge logistics. And as for Clancey who just Wants To Do Her Job and then here comes Picard, who's never really gotten over being the king of his own warp-capable castle, and she doesn't even want to step on him so much as just wants him to go away so she can go back to Doing Her Damn Job. Neither are evil, they just are trying to take out the emotional aspect of the question "How Many of the Lives I'm Responsible Have to be Lost?" They're both the type to answer the Trolley Question with "Hit the fewest number of people. Pull all the controls you have to. Shoot someone in the face if necessary. Reduce the number of deaths and salve our feelings afterwards.
Evil Admirals in Starfleet are so hilariously common, that you pretty much just need to say "Admiral". I just assume they're evil until proven otherwise.
Au contraire. Not every Admiral in Starfleet is evil. There are good ones like Kirk's boss Heihachiro Nogura. You hear about him in ST TMP and in many ST TOS Lost Years novels like "Time for Yeserday" (by A.C. Crispin) and "The Pandora Principle" by Carolyn Clowes.
Admiral Picard or Admiral Kirk, b/c of his own quote: “Well let me tell you something. Don't! Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do *anything* that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.”
Janeway recklessly altered the timeline in order to save her favorite minions. And just them. She even specifically chose to come back only a couple weeks after Joe Carey dies horribly at the hands of random aliens. No happy ending for you Joe. Sorry.
Nechayev was probably my favorite admiral, actually. She's clearly the one that they decided to make Picard's personal handler because she's immune to the Picard Maneuver. No, not that one, the one where he shouts a morality lesson at you until you acknowledge that he has the high ground. She's a realist in Starfleet rather than a starry-eyed dreamer like Picard. Her personality is very much "sunshine and puppies are great, but what good is your moral high ground when the Cardassians bomb it out from beneath you?" And, I always felt that she and Picard respected each other. Like they might have been on friendly terms when their duty didn't get in the way.
"Ah, but you see the 'cloaking' effect is merely a side effect of phasing through all matter. If you don't interact with matter, you can't be detected. You see; we *weren't* developing 'cloaking' technology. We were developing an entirely different technology which simply happened to have some of the same effects." --some Starfleet lawyer, probably
I hope that lawyer wasn't Kirk's lawyer, Sam Cogley from ST TOS episode "Court Martial". The quote sounds like it came from a Silicon Valley corporate counsel.
I think the "evil admiral" is something owed to Trek's history as well (just see Kirk's constant bias and racism against Klingons. Granted, they murdered his son, but still...). Trek was invented against a background of Flash Gordon, John Carter, Perry Rhodan and, to a lesser extent, lost in space. The Gernsbach-/Heinlein-esque trope of the competent man was still very much a thing and still lurks beneath to this very day, just in another guise in Star Wars (and keep in mind that the Motion picture could just be made because of that movie). So, it is fair to assume that Starfleet promotes the typus of the "Competent Man" (and, later, the competent woman) who feels they are empowered to do whatever they want to do in order to reach their goals. And that mindset makes sense on the frontier: Think on the fly, take risks, be morally flexible, do whatever "needs to be done" to get ahead. As evidence of this, I would just point to episodes like "Patterns of Force" from TOS or the mentioned "Journey's End" from TNG, as well as to much of Sisko's and Janeway's actions in their individual series. Throw in young Picard from Nemesis as well, for good measure, and keep in mind that Janeway ended up being promoted before him (and yes, I actually like Janeway and most of her portrayal, but no, I don't think she is a morally infallible leader). But there is a problem: That exact mindset can also lead to delusions of grandeur, to the feeling of not being responsible to anyone, anmore, which is why those people can become a menace to the very society they are sworn to protect- see the list above.
Everyone (unless they're clinically insane) believes they're the hero of their own story and will construct all manner of justifications for why what they're doing is right (even noble "I will make this sacrifice for the greater good"). It's good writing to assume that villains actually HAVE a justification for their actions as opposed to just being "because they're evil". But yes, when you combine it with rewarding the (occasional?) playing fast and loose with the rules that is practised by its Captains, it makes sense that they don't think the rules should apply to them - they never did before!
As Thomas Wayne said, when he shot Zoom in the head and gave Flash a chance to rewrite history back to its former timeline, "Not necessarily..." As temporal paradoxes go, Admiral Janeway was destined to complete a loop that was already in play, otherwise the Temporal Prime Directive would've applied, and the crew of the time ship Relativity would've stopped her. Those billions would've been splinters in time, and in need of "correction"...
@@ricaard Thomas Wayne was correcting the damage done, Janeway's timeline had not been altered by anyone, she altered it. And saying it must've been okay because no time agency stopped her does little to negate this fact. Admiral Janeway isn't evil though, arrogant and selfish yes, which I suppose is evil.
Dear Steve, I was born in 1970. In England we got Star Trek in 1978. I was the perfect age and I suddenly had a step dad who introduced me to the magic. I can remember my first episode - The Corbomite Manoeuvre. It of course rocked my world. I wish you and me could sit down and have a beer together. I am as enthusiastic as I was when I was eight. It would be a great talk. I have a deep and burning hatred for Sexually Transmitted Voyager, btw. Good day to you sir.
This week my audio fan series CHRONICLE has its season finale, which touches on exactly these issues. In it, Federation policy was directly responsible for allowing a catastrophe to claim billions of lives. Decades later, the consequences of this emerge--not least from the reaction of a larger, older, more powerful and profoundly ethical civilization they encounter. I'm hoping we do a second season, to examine what a turning point this must be for the Federation--and the "bad admirals" are exactly the ones who might make the situation so very much worse. Wonderful video essay. You are one of my three favorite TREK youtubers--along with Jessie Gender and Trekspertise. :) Thank you so much.
Aside from the fact that this is just a great video, it's also the most subtle social criticism I've heard this week. And I don't even think that that part was intended... Well done.
I think part of the reason Satie came to mind over Pressman was due to Simmons theatricality. "I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard!" is such an iconic, OTT line that it imprinted itself on the brains of Trek fans, and elevated Satie to immortality. And Satie's antagonism wasn't just a "I've got to protect the Federation, the poor little baby!" It felt *personal*. I'm also tempted to being up the original Evil Admiral, Commodore Tracy, who committed the ultimate sin -- he beat up James T. Kirk.
If you're going to test an illegal widget you told the Romulans you wouldn't make - maybe do the test on the other side of Federation space from the Romulan border?
If all your channel was was you doing your summaries of Trek episodes I would still subscribe the hell out of it! Seriously, your summaries are as good or sometimes better than the episodes themselves.
You forgot the part of the episode where Riker visits the Holodeck to mull over if he should tell Picard the truth or not... I think Scott Bakula was in that scene....
Fun fact: I just found out yesterday that one of my friends lives next door to Fleet Admiral Alynna Nechayev from Star Trek (TNG, DS9) Natalija Nogulich m.imdb.com/name/nm0634101/
I’m glad that you did one of your recaps. They are my favourite parts of your videos and it was a pleasant surprise to find one in a not actually trek actually video.
I had a great US History teacher. We spent a month, I think, in the Native American forced relocations and exterminations. In South Carolina! All thanks to my awesome teacher.
For breeding purposes genetic engineering is allowed. Assuming that Spocks's mother (Amanda Grayson) was able to carry him part way to term (if not a full pregnancy maybe longer for a Vulcan baby) genetic tinkering had to be done. She had red blood and Spock has green blood. Spock joined Starfleet.
A useful rule of thumb my husband and I have derived is that if anyone justifies their action by saying it is "For The Greater Good" then they are evil.
im so glad you never have a giant microphone in your face. i dont know how you manage it. over the past few years all the tubers can only be heard through the largest mic possible, so you are a uniquely talented host
Well it took some googling but am I right that was a Tombstone(1993) film reference with the moustache ? I'm not so sure about characterising admiral Nechayev as just an antagonist in the same way as captain jellico. She wasn't rogue but she seemed to be fine with implementing a series of orders that would have had any of the main cast leaving their pips on the table, Admiral Clancy started supporting picard just as soon as Picards crew had reasonable evidence to support his claims.
I think Nechayev is a good representative of the darker, more ruthlessly pragmatic side of Starfleet, for sure. As for the mustache joke, that's a reference to 90's-era Terry O'Quinn in general. He had it in Tombstone, and in just about everything else I remember him doing back then, except "The Pegasus," oddly enough.
you know this video and the one about the Federation being the bad guys brought up an idea in my mind. As the Flagship the Enterprise is not just a place to station all "the Best and Brightest Starfleet has to offer" but its also a pretty heavy PR tool. So it wouldnt be suprising that all the people inclined to being heroic good hearted get stationed there. In the end there is probably a second Flagship running around where the crew is more inclined to getting their hands dirty as well as ships staffed by people chosen by one or more of the "Evil Admirals"
"Remember Will, he might be an Admiral, but he's also a Guest Star."
Some friends and I do a table top Roleplay set in the TNG era and that is a line we pulled out, haha. "A valid point Admiral, but you are a guest star and the main cast is talking."
Not to mention, a guest star who has played plenty of evil (fill the baanks) _______________________ in his career.
I mean, sure, but it's Terry O'Quinn not just any guest star.
@@christelheadington1136 And at the end Picard says " good luck, your going to need those friends".
@@whoiswillo at the time, he was just a guest star.
You forgot one thing in the recap of The Pegasus... during one of the commercial breaks, Riker and Troi popped off to the holodeck to run some Archer/T'pol fanfic...
The "Not Actually ENT Actually" :P
Clayton Berg It would make sense because it's another story about lovers from very different worlds, with the female having a very formal, interfering family. If Troi wanted to roleplay she might even try being a Vulcan because she's so emotional and they are so logical.
You must be mistaken, that never happened. If that had happened it would have been really stupid and ruined the Pegasus. Fortunately it didn't happen. You are mistaken. :)
@@claytonberg721 interestingly, its established that 23rd century holographic information wasn't very accurate in DS9 in the Tribble episode. Ie, Kirk didn't look like his picture.
Yet the people seen in this holodeck program representing even older people are exact matches for what we have seen on the entire Enterprise show.
This suggests that the show was its self a holodeck program representing the events and people of that era with some level of error.
That also falls in line with the idea that TOS is a not so accurate representation of what those events looked like, something pushed by Roddenberry himself.
I don't think fanfic is the right word... I don't think any of the fans wanted that lol
"Some of it was so bad that they even bothered to teach us about it in school." That made me laugh really hard, then it made me really depressed. Thanks, Steve.
I assume you're talking about the Trail of Tears? President Andrew Jackson ordered the Cherakees to leave their land. The Tribe appealed the order to the Supreme Court and won, but Jackson shot back, the Indians have their ruling from SCOTUS, but let's see if SCOTUS can enforce it." Naturally, SCOTUS has no enforcement tools, so the Cherakees still have to pack up and leave their land, and along the way, they lose quite a few tribal members because of the terrain and weather. A truly bad episode in American history by a bad 19th century president. He also destroyed the Bank of the United States.
Admiral Cartwright , why was he so against the Klingons. I'd like to know his past history with them.
"It's Captain Picard day, number one....... Please , put that Captain Picard doll down."
" Oooh Captain, I'd just for once wanted you to be my puppet."
"I let him get away with it and I don't hold it agaisnt him, because he's one of my favourite characters... That's how bias works."
Mr. Shives, you have created yet another quote that I will probably use frequently in the future.
The best definition of politics I've ever seen.
This is how I feel about Janeway 😂
Since when has Riker become Shives' favorite character? Is this a mirror universe? Is Janeway his second best?
When you think about it, the Admirals breaking the rules (and principals) of the Federation for what they see as the greater good makes total sense given what we've seen of Star Trek's captains. They're constantly pulling that sort of shit at a lower level, and in the end an Admiral comes along and says "You broke all the rules but, goddamnit, you did good. I'm gonna give you a slap on the wrist that's actually secretly a promotion or whatever." If your captains have that sort of space-hero-cowboy-batman culture, it's going to be reflected in the admiralty as well, but the admirals have even fewer checks on their behavior and fewer people willing or able to stand up to them and say the ends don't justify the means.
Yeah pretty much. I mean Starfleet training literally has, in the Kobayashi Maru scenario, breaching the Romulan treaty as a training scenario for every would-be Captain. The clear message is that "if you can get away with it, it's fine".
Didn't Kirk pretty much make 2 careers out of that
I never thought about it this way, but you are 100% correct. You reap what you sow, and Starfleet makes a concerted effort to create an individualist midset in its officers. Even Picard does this, telling Data (paraphrased) "some of the greatest tragedies in our history happened because "I was only following orders" was more important than thinking through the issue at hand". When that's the message you're sending to every officer, the only surprise is that Starfleet isn't in a constant state of mutiny.
Excellent point
And that puts Starfleet between a rock and a hard place.
If they simply follow orders, by the time they're admirals they would commit genocide without questioning it, just because it comes from above.
And if they support individual thinking, by the time they're admirals they do whatever they want, because free thinking is encouraged.
I would never have included Nechayev because in the end she and Picard ended up, maybe not liking each other, but respecting each other. So I’m glad you DIDN’T include her.
Yet again, another great video!
"Starfleet does not want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation."
This is where it comes from. Starfleet wants free-thinkers who will take the initiative and do what they think is right regardless of what they're told.
Sometimes this creates utter mavericks who are genuinely morally-superior heroes like Jean-Luc.
However, sometimes enough pats on the head will turn an otherwise innocuous but ambitious officer into someone who thinks they truly know what's best, not just for the present situation but for the galactic situation as a whole, and they've been conditioned to think the rules don't apply to them so long as they're doing what they think is best.
Morally superior? Is that a joke? His morals shift with the wind.
Well said. 👏
✌️&❤️
I'm sure there are quite a few of these admirals who did what they did thinking they were justified due to their feelings they had the moral High Ground.
During the last election I saw a video where two women in their twenties were arguing with a woman because she supported Trump. Then they ripped this six year old boy's hat off his head because it was a MAGA hat and wouldn't give it back to him.
They ran and played keep away with it
as he begged and cried.
Finally they threw it on the ground and stomped on it and as the six-year-old was crying, the mother who was recording the whole thing while chasing after them looked at them and said
"look at what you just did to my six-year-old son what is wrong with you!"
Their response was "Well you shouldn't be raising him to be a trump supporter!"
as if anyone who supported Trump was an evil monster and therefore they had the moral right to do whatever they wanted because said person was a trump supporter even if it was a six-year-old boy.
And both, blindly following orders, and acting independently, has it's issues. And both have shown that people will to right and wrong things with either system.
@@glennwilliams2950 should look into how Lore Reloaded on YT interprets Janeway and her mental journey & morals leading up to the feud with Ransom in Voyager.
"I like Riker and let him get away with it because that's how bias works."
Well played Steve, well played. 🖖
Admiral Nechayev is honestly one of my favorite admirals in all of Starfleet, I adore her. I wish we got to see more of her overall. Then Admiral Forrest on ENT.
ALso, I love see John Locke as an Admiral. Is he gonna rant about the numbers?
Evil admiral? I thought the agreed upon term was "badmiral" or is that just in my friend group?
"badmiral" implies mere incompetence rather than malicious intent, tho. "Admireval" perhaps?
That's good! I'm stealing that!
We always referred to Tom Paris's father as "Dadmiral."
Does that mean a bad captain is a craptain?
lest we forget kirk: SPOCK: Jim they are dying
kirk: LET THEM DIE!!!
I loved the rant about Picard's character development. His gradual move towards a "father" figure was awkwardly hilarious, but also very apparent
Even in season 7, the Voyager crew still treats the Doctor differently. Seven turns him off, apparently mid-sentence, in "Imperfection". What kind of trouble would she get in if she knocked out, say, Tom? In "Lineage", B'Elanna reprograms the Doctor to make him operate on her unborn baby, and we don't see her punished. She does apologize to the Doctor at the end of the episode, but, again, imagine how serious the consequences would be if B'Elanna altered a biological crew member's brain to make them do something against their will.
I'm not surprised the Doctor used the crew's likenesses in "Author, Author".
And the Doctor being able to control his shutdown function was pretty much the first personal freedom he gained on the ship. Exactly so that people don't turn him off in the middle of work, or to keep him running all night without anything to do.
"I'm proud to say I've written another insane admiral. They must put something in the water at Federation Headquarters."
- Ronald D. Moore
That something must be either Klingon Bloodwine, Romulan Ale, or Ferengi synthehol beer.
No mention of the fact that apparently Admiral Cartwright apparently escapes justice, changes his name to Joseph Sisko and retires to run a Creole restaurant?
Yeah but he also makes Bajoran Jesus so forgive and forget
He also fathered a child with a god ...
But then he ruined it all again by moving to Alabama...
@@mb2000 moving to Alabama is his punishment.
Exactly
Something quite hilarious about Admiral Satie is how easily she is baited into exposing her true colours by a bit of jabbing from Picard.
Is that all it takes? If so, she's not exactly a cunning mastermind.
I've never even seen Satie as evil per se. Just paranoid.
Here is my question. Are evil admirals just more evil in the mirror universe, or are they good guys?
I think it would have been a nice bit of continuity is Admiral Clancy had actually been Admiral Nechayev. It would have added a lot more weight to the scenes between the Admiral and Picard if we actually knew the history between them. Both Patrick Stewart and Ann Magnuson do a good job and have enough chemistry to make the idea of their characters having a history, but I would love to have seen Natalia Nogulich reprise her role. Nechayev was a character I loved to hate, and is probably my favorite admiral, evil or otherwise.
I liked Admiral Nechayev. No nonsense, "get it done". While offering counterpoint to Picard, she was in no way a villain.
I never looked at Nechayev as a villain per se or even a rogue admiral. If anything she was buttoned-up Starfleet to the core. She was always willing to do what was right for Starfleet without compromising the values of Starfleet, even if it went against the wishes and desires of captains like Picard or Sisko.
I've had bosses like Nechayev. Between her and JAG's Admirals Chegwidden and Boone, I would have chosen to work for Chegwidden or Boone. Screw the Nechayev boss clones who deserve not to be preserved in my memory.
Oh yes, she is. She portrays a bureaucrat I have little respect for and hasn't promoted anybody to a starship captaincy or a rear admiral for several years. She's nothing more than a high-level Starfleet bureaucrat sitting at a desk at Starfleet HQ, staring at a computer monitor filled with figures. She's not out there among the stars and planets, commanding squadrons of ships, a starbase, or helping negotiate a prisoner exchange between the Cardassians and the Feds.
She did her job. That's it. There is no reason for everyone in Starfleet to be best friends. Could she be nicer? Sure. But there is no reason for it. If any, she lost contact to the frontier a bit and acted from her office back home.
Nechayev ordered Picard to commit genocide how is she not a villain.
Pressman's greatest crime had to be ruining the finale of Enterprise.
LOL good one
Hey, it's not Pressman's fault. That finale could never have been saved and should never have been written.
I don't understand. What did he have do with "Terra Prime" ?
@@gustafsone The framing device for "These Are the Voyages... " (the actual finale of Enterprise) was Riker on the holodeck experiencing some of the last adventures of the NX-01. All set during Pressman's visit to the Enterprise D for the Pegasus mission.
Nah, I blame the producers. 😉
Your polls absence Admiral Cartwright, in my opinion, was a huge oversight. His betrayal is one of the most egregious for my view at least. He conspired to assassinate the federation president, the Klingon Chancellor, and start a war! His actions might not have been as self serving as some of the others, but still pretty evil
Love the videos Steve, thank you for the entertainment and introspective
Agreed. I'd say the same for Admiral Dougherty from Star Trek: Insurrection. That plan to uproot the Ba'ku without their knowledge to leverage their planet's rings was diabolical. I can't imagine how bad things would've gotten for them as they started aging again, and that's assuming no other side effects.
"read the jersey, I'm team Picard" omg, Steve, your comedic timing and writing has me laughing out loud to the point I was coughing.
brilliant, and thank-you. omg... so funny
Regarding Picard’s attitude to children, I think his relationship with his nephew (René, I think) marks an important turning point
The gradual progress of his friendship with Wesley was also a factor.
Riker day would be impossible. Could you imagine? Having the sift through all the entries created by children Riker had sired?
The Cardassians had the same problem with Gul Dukat Day. Then they instituted a discriminatory no half-Bajorans ban, which cut the number of entries by 70% to a more easily manageable 50K+
@@Timmersan Oh jeez, the thought just occurred... what if Dukat had so many kids that he lost track & accidentally...
nope I'm not finishing that sentence.
@@Spike-Prime Well, even if he didn't know, they might.
Just how many kids did Will Riker sire, and with whom--besides Deanna Troi? The alien kid in "Past Imperfect" doesn't count, nor does that 10 YO kid in "The Child". He didn't spend enough time with either Ro ("Conundrum"), the alien woman from "The Game," Soran from the "The Outcast", or Beate from "Angel One" to procreate much less help the mothers deal with their pregnancies.
I always found it fascinating that the episode that introduced Section 31 and indicted the existence of this shadowy organization dedicated to doing anything to preserve the Federation... was immediately followed by "In the Pale Moonlight" showing a good man like Capt Sisko falling prey to that exact sort of logic in his endeavor to bring the Romulans into the war.
War is one hell of a motivator for shady actions
Personally, I always enjoyed Nachayev. She was just a hardass who was perfectly pleasant but needed things to get done. I think starfleet sent her out specifically because once a decision was made, she delivered the orders with a minimum of argument, whether she agreed or not, she'd run the play. Clancy, I think was just dealing with a jaded starfleet and jaded Federation council and had very little wiggle room. And Clancy I liked alot otherwise :) She also was no nonsense. But when she had the opportunity to flex, look at the task force she shipped out.. That was over 300ships and on short notice.. probably out of the shipyards on other worlds because the implication was those ships were new.. She got the job done when she had the evidence to make it so.
Agreed. Clancy was absolutely correct in turning down Picard's request. He was arrogant to think he could dictate the terms of his reinstatement. Once he had evidence she mobilized the fleet. Similarly Nechayev had to make hard decisions. The peace treaty with Cardassia wasn't perfect, but the perfect is often the enemy of the good.
I didn't like her because she was a hard ass, i have an issue with athority heh. But i 'm just going to have to come to grips with being misogynist i guess now /shrug.
Erik Jerks is she the “sheer fucking hubris” Admiral? (I haven’t seen Picard yet).
@@mb2000 yes. And as much as I love Picard (the character), I think she was right. It's Starfleet, not Space-Uber. :)
Ya know, when I was a kid I didn't like her because she was "mean" to Picard as an adult I like her more. She was spot on about what they should've done with Hugh. If they were going to let him go back it should've at least accomplished something for the safety of the Federation!
I'm surprised Admiral Janeway isn't on the list. Rewriting the past to suit her wishes? That's pretty bad.
As soon as I saw this on my recommendation videos, I thought, "Either Janeway or Cartwright."
Characters have been re writing history for most of the franchise.
And given what we know about timetravel and parallel timelines in star trek she likely didn't erase her own timeline, she simply ensured there was a timeline where things went better.
Characters have been re writing history for most of the franchise.
And given what we know about timetravel and parallel timelines in star trek she likely didn't erase her own timeline, she simply ensured there was a timeline where things went better.
SHE'S TO DANGEROUS TO BE LEFT ALIVE!
I would have thought Admiral Mathew Dougherty (Insurrection) would have made the list, especially with the talk about forced relocations in the video!
Agreed especially since he was complicit with the Son'a on the attack on a federation vessel
Steve's rant re. the character development of Picard and the grinches who slagged it off gives me life!
Layton came so close to taking over Starfleet using the fear of changlings. Had Sisco not been there he would have done it.
I don't remember where, but I saw an excerpt of an interview with Natalia Nogulich where she said that she's been told Nechayev is sometimes pointed to by genuine military brass as a model for how to interact with subordinates. I've never seen her as evil, or even really antagonistic -- just a device for creating narrative and thematic constraints. She's actually high on my list of desired returning characters. I would like to see her as a top Starfleet admiral, or even Starfleet C&C.
That's the thing that vexed me too. I haven't rewatched _TNG_ in some time, but I don't really remember her as being even antagonistic, let alone villainous. Yet so many brought her up as a potential example. I always saw her as a rather firm, but usually fair, military top-brass.
@@scaper8 In the episode that introduces Hugh she shows up at the end to reprimand Picard for not committing an act of genocide and orders him to never let an opportunity to completely destroy the Collective go by.
Absolutely. Admiral N. Is my personal favorite.
Well said btw!
@@candopoc She's also the one who puts Jellico in command of the Enterprise, and she's also the one who orders Picard to carry out a forced relocation in Journey's End.
Worst evil admiral as in the most evil or the worst in the sense of being sucky at being an evil admiral? The former is stiff competition. The latter has to be Admiral Dougherty from Star Trek: Insurrection. He was totally ineffectual at being a bad guy.
Well he was not trying to be a bad guy. He was misguided and tragic to me. Love the actor, of course!
@@JJMHigner Oh, yeah. Good old Anthony Zerbe. He played General Grant in the North and South Book 2 Miniseries in the mid-80s and the sarcastic police officer who disliked David Janssen's private detective character, Harry Orwell in the eponymous drama.
Crazy how fast a Not Actually can come out
3:13 "The Doctor didn't spend several years in the Delta Quadrant for you to question his personhood! HE'S GOT RIGHTS!" (Ensign Brad Boimler)
The whole idea of the Federation not accepting the sentience and personhood of androids while also looking on in awe and bending over backwards for every random blinking fart cloud or invisible space ghost always felt like either an active choice to point out hypocrisy or bad writing. I could never decide which.
Thank you about Picard and his relationship with kids!!! My thoughts exactly! His bond with Elnor makes perfect sense to me at this moment in his life... and even though he did "get" to be a father in Inner Light, he didn't get to be one in his "real" life.
He has now - sort of.
I actually liked the term rogue admiral's instead of evil admirals. The reason for this is that every one of the admirals mentioned had the good of Starfleet and the federation as a whole at heart when they began to use unorthodox methods to accomplish their goals. The term "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind here. For Preston's it was the development of a defensive system that he viewed as capable of saving thousands, if not millions, of federation live, and for Leyton it was the threat of a war with the dominion that made him act irrationally. The only truely evil admiral I can see is commodore Oh who we found out was actually a romulan agent, and even she had reasons for what she did, albeit not very good ones.
"I'd make a great evil admiral wouldn't i?"
It would be so hilarious if you were a guest star on Picard.
What amazes me is that after all that plotting in Star Trek VI the Federation let Cartwright retire and run a restaurant in New Orleans.
He did have to change his name to Sisko to stay incognito, though...
AND he apparently lived for another 80 years after the events in Star Trek VI, even though he was already like 60 in that movie.
I heard he later moved to Alabama, but it didn’t go well either...
One of his co-conspirators was Odo, to boot!
@@lorcannagle And Odo and Neelix had both visited Earth during the 80s where they had infiltrated the governor's mansion of some unidentified state.
For sentient holograms you forgot the first who was also a complete accident... Moriarty ... who was created by one misplaced word in Elementary, Dear Data and then in essence, escapes his captors control (some would even say slavery) in Ship in a Bottle. While being recognised by some of the crew he never gained any real rights
All the Evil Admiral did what they did "For the Greater Good." "The Greater Good."
Pressman wasn't evil, he must have had the backing of Starfleet to get as far as he could, one admiral could not have created a phase cloak and acquired a ship without at least it being signed off because 100's of people must have been involved. The pegasus is more proof that Starfleet is not above secret operations that contravene agreements (not unlike real world counties)
indeed, Pressman was the oliver north of the whole thing.
He even had the explicit support of Starfleet Command and Starfleet Intelligence for the salvage mission. Which IMO makes it all the more arrogant of Picard to think he could interfere with it. Stories like this make it obvious that some of those writers have no idea how a real military would actually work.
@@TheSarcMark Which is how a certain party's soldiers killed millions of civilians for the greater good of Germany.
Godwinned.
Cartwright did the right thing. Picard is so juvenile and pollyannish sometimes. Picard should have destroyed the Borg, he shouldn't have needed to be tricked to destroy the crystalline entity and he shouldn't have turned Cartwright in.
Did we have a treaty when he violated Cardassian space to perform a secret mission? What's the difference? How many times has he went into the neutral zones or sent spies to various places in violation of treaties? Remember Lower decks? Does he think all of our spies like the Romulan General are wrong because it violates a treaty?
@@glennwilliams2950 Do you mean Pressman? Cartwright is the admiral from Star Trek VI that plotted to assassinate the Klingon chancellor and Federation President.
I actually liked Admiral Nechayev. She represents the hard nosed “big picture” bureaucracy in Starfleet. Too bad she only made a few appearances in DS9. It would’ve been interesting to see how she would handle the situation with Bajor and the Dominion.
I would have happily traded Admiral Ross for Nechayev. He wasn't bad or anything. Just kind of milquetoast. Nechayev could have held her own against Sisko better. The other option would have been to just promote Sisko to a Rear Admiral. He basically ran the offensive during the sixth and seventh seasons.
She and Picard had an interesting relationship. Sure she is bossing him around and often a jerk about it but I got a sense of mutual respect.
Picard offered her canopies, the only time I ever recall a Captain offering an Admiral something like that. :)
Nechayev would've been the perfect opponent for Leyton.
One want's to run a military coup because he thinks the civilian government isn't doing enough against the Dominion.
The other supports the existing structures with no jokes.
Those two arguing in Starfleet HQ over how to protect the Federation would've been great.
"remember, he migth be a admiral, but he's also a guest star" literally laughed out loud :D
Well, I've always seen Starfleet/United Federation of Planets/Star Trek as an allegory for our own society. So of course it's flawed because we're flawed. If it was perfect you wouldn't have as good a platform for those storylines that expose that, and since Star Trek has a history of moral storytelling, showing our own failings is a major part of the show as a whole. Because afterall, this society of ours has a long history already and we're just starting to deal with only some of the issues Star Trek raised over 20 years ago. Is it beyond the pale to suppose that there are still hurdles to negotiate for centuries to come? It shows what history tells us, that we as a society can move forward but it's always at the pace of the least willing to change.
OK, but also being fair about the reactions people had to Necheyev, people despised Captain Jellico (remember him from the first Trek, Actually?), despite being a seemingly good officer and captain, one dealing with a tense situation, doing the best he could. But, he butted heads with our series regulars, so much of the audience hated him. That's how a lot of people react to antagonistic, but not necessarily villainous, characters regardless of gender.
You forgot to mention Moriarty as a synthetic life forms that Star Fleet straight up tricked into living in a prison.
@@Blasted2Oblivion pretty sure that little prison is going to be put on a shelf and forgotten about, like how Moriarty's program just languished in some folder for half a decade until Barklay stumbled upon it. 😔
Also, a prison is still a prison, even if you are fooled into believing it is not.
But I hold out hope that Starfleet was able to replicate the Doctor's mobile emitter and give it to Moriarty :)
Admiral Satie gets my vote. Her surreptitious way of thinking might have remained hidden if not for Picard's defiance.
if you are going to go down the "wrong thing for the right reason" path you then need to start looking at all the times the main crews chose to ignore the prime directive for various reasons... or 101 things that Janeway is actually guilty of
I viewed Picard's relationship with Elnor as a way to fill the void in his life left by the death of his nephew, René Picard.
Could be.
Steve, since you're taking about them doing evil things for the right reasons, you should talk about the depths they wentto during the dominion war. Mainly the episodes Inter Arma einem silent legis and In the pale moonlight.
There was also that time in S3 of TOS where Kirk and Spock violate treaties to fly into Romulan space and steal a cloaking device at Starfleets order. An act of war by any measure.
Please read the ST TOS novel "The Romulan Way" (written by Diane Duane) to see what happens to Bones McCoy, who was declared a war criminal to stand trial on Romulus for his role in "The Enterprise Incident": he disguised Kirk as a Romulan so that he could sneak aboard a Romulan ship to steal their cloaking device.
"That's how bias works." I love your willingness to be aware of yourself.
The Federation has always been, among other things, a stand-in for the United States. It's easier to do evil when you have always believed your nation to be exceptionally, even uniquely, good.
Coughtrumpcough
@@whoviandax8053 Hard work!
I was thinking the opposite applied: The UFP is more like a stronger UN, while Starfleet is a very powerful global Navy to threaten rogue countries like Cuba and North Korea. Ditto for doing the same to China, Russia, Iran and Al-Qaeda and ISIS.
I recently re-watched "Journey's End" and a scene with Nechayev struck me. Picard calls her up to discuss the situation and ask for the Federation Council to intervene. Nechayev tells him she already tried and the answer was, "No." It's late season 7 at this point, so we're conditioned to think, "Okay, but we know Picard is likely to ignore that and do the right thing anyway. Since she didn't do that she's Eeeeeeeeeevil!" But, first, Picard doesn't quite do that, rather he fumbles the situation, and a rather crappy compromise is reached, one that is the impetus for the Marquis, actually.
Yes, she does tell Picard in "Descent" that he screwed up with Hugh and should NEVER pass up an opportunity to take out the Borg, no matter how much they are turning the drone they rescued into the Enterprise's pet, I mean real person who should have the right to be an independent person. But, again, it comes across as more of Starfleet's position than her striking out on her own accord.
She was right about Hugh though. They should've sent him back with a virus to cripple the Borg, if they just had to let him go back. Or otherwise don't allow him to go back, and allow him to be further rehabilitated. They didn't do either very well.
Will she return for Picard? Hope so!
Nechayev was also correct. Picard forgot the destructive power of the Borg.
Picard uses diplomacy to convince Nacheyev, and she tells him, she tried the same already.
So the point where the Federation seems to order the obviously evil thing, she is totally on Picard's side, but also respects the chain of command.
The situation with Hugh is quite different. As viewers we meet him the same moment the crew meets him, and they develop a relationship. Even his will to return to the Borg, despite all their attempts to convince him otherwise. But at no point tries anyone to force him to stay.
Necheyev didn't have that development with Hugh. She knows how dangerous the Borg are, that there is a unique chance to seriously cripple this foe that can't be reasoned with. In some way, she is right in demanding the use of Hugh as a weapon.
Great summary of The Pegasus (one of my favorite TNG episodes as well). Pressman's standing in your polls also indicates another layer of what makes his willfulness to shove aside law and morals so problematic: the fact that so many people are not likely to see it as a big deal.
Keep up the fabulous work.
21:08 "This is never going to be mentioned again. "
ME: "What about the Enterprise finale?"
FANBASE: "THIS IS NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN."
One thing that always struck me with starfleet admirals and the overall rank structure, there seems to be a glass ceiling based on race.
Admiral: Human mostly or Vulcan
Captain: Human mostly or Vulcan
Cdm: Human mostly or Vulcan
Lt cdm and below: All welcome.
It's for TV most likely so we can identify with characters, but it's not a good look 🤔😃
Well a half Romulan did become Commodore! :P
I agree. Although just for arguments sake, not counting alternate realities, we’ve seen a Bolian admiral (Homefront/Paradise Lost), Bolian Captain (Conspiracy), Benzite Captain (mentioned, Apocalyse Rising), plus assorted high ranking aliens in the council scenes of Star Trek IV. I dare say many of those that were just mentioned could have been non-human/Vulcan too.
Whenever there is a position of power there will always be people who try to take advantage of that power
You forgot about the part where Riker spends hours in the holodeck pretending to be the chef on the NX-01 Enterprise. LOL
Man I love watching you talk about Star Trek and the way you deliver your thoughts to us. You get so emotional and your facial expressions are hilarious. Nice job, son.
"That's how bias works." That line made me smile.
A video about bad admirals and no Janeway joke? WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO STEVE?!
"Do IT"!
Oh shut up, she desroyed Borg and part of their network, saved Tuvok mental health, save 7of9 from death and Chakotay from sorrow, and voyager came back 7 years earlier. And that's all she did. She did not sacrify millions of people, that timeline never existed. Period.
To be honest, I find Clancy laying into Picard more amusing then anything else, especially after finishing the season. The first time I watched that, I was slightly pissed, but I also realized that Clancy, and by extension Starfleet, had no obligation to help Picard. Yes, it would have been nice if they did, but that's it. After finishing the season, I think back to the look on Picard's face as he is getting grilled, and I chuckle a bit. Patrick Stewart played that scene excellently.
Also, when you did that misogynist joke near the end there, I literally laughed and called you an asshole. While laughing, don't want you to get the wrong idea.
How did Leton lose the poll? He tried - nearly succeed, in a coup of the federation goverment! Clearly the poll is being influenced by Changeling Spies! I would love to see you do a Trek Actually on all the bad admirals and the obvious institutional corruption in Starfleet. Loved this episode. The Anti-Hero Bad Admirals, Captains and politicians are one of my favorite tropes in Star Trek.
Speaking of Rura Penthe, how about we talk about the Federation allying itself with an empire that has slave planets.
@@리주민 You're referring to the Maine-Missouri Compromise of 1819, correct? I'm glad you learned a little bit about American history in your school. What did you think about the Trail of Tears incident? Or the Donner Party cannabalism incident in the 1840s? How about the Dred Scott decision in 1857? Did you learn about that story?
Okay so while the main point of this video is great, I'm so happy to see someone putting the Picard series in the right context. It is VERY clear that, unlike Discovery's writers, the writers of the Picard series DID go back and extend from events established in Next Generation (and other Trek series, Voyager in particular). I hate that there are people who really going to shoot down anything new that's made regardless of whether it's well written or poorly written.
I don't think Picard was very well written, but I thought Clancy represented an intriguing turn,
The Douchey Admiral Who Does Have A Good Case.
“He might be an admiral but he’s a guest star.”
He might be an admiral, but guess who does your annual personnel evaluation?
"I am proud to say that I've written another insane Admiral. They must put something in the water at Federation Headquarters." (Ronald D. Moore, Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages)
"I'm saying statistically you *probably* are a misogynist"
Thank you, I laughed loud enough to startle my husband xD
As a note, Nechayev came across to me as someone trying to handle the ethically and logistically messy and bloody business of an actively disputed military conflict zone who wasn't unfeeling, but she prioritized the logistics. I feel like if you got her alone, she'd admit that she thought it was good to have soft hearts on the ground level but expected captains and up to act on the hard-edge logistics. And as for Clancey who just Wants To Do Her Job and then here comes Picard, who's never really gotten over being the king of his own warp-capable castle, and she doesn't even want to step on him so much as just wants him to go away so she can go back to Doing Her Damn Job. Neither are evil, they just are trying to take out the emotional aspect of the question "How Many of the Lives I'm Responsible Have to be Lost?" They're both the type to answer the Trolley Question with "Hit the fewest number of people. Pull all the controls you have to. Shoot someone in the face if necessary. Reduce the number of deaths and salve our feelings afterwards.
Is evil something internal to a character or a product of actions that can only be judged in hindsight? (false dichotomy?)
Evil Admirals in Starfleet are so hilariously common, that you pretty much just need to say "Admiral". I just assume they're evil until proven otherwise.
Au contraire. Not every Admiral in Starfleet is evil. There are good ones like Kirk's boss Heihachiro Nogura. You hear about him in ST TMP and in many ST TOS Lost Years novels like "Time for Yeserday" (by A.C. Crispin) and "The Pandora Principle" by Carolyn Clowes.
Admiral Picard or Admiral Kirk, b/c of his own quote: “Well let me tell you something. Don't! Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do *anything* that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.”
I think the quote came from Kirk, in ST TNG "Generations."
Janeway recklessly altered the timeline in order to save her favorite minions. And just them. She even specifically chose to come back only a couple weeks after Joe Carey dies horribly at the hands of random aliens. No happy ending for you Joe. Sorry.
Nechayev was probably my favorite admiral, actually.
She's clearly the one that they decided to make Picard's personal handler because she's immune to the Picard Maneuver. No, not that one, the one where he shouts a morality lesson at you until you acknowledge that he has the high ground.
She's a realist in Starfleet rather than a starry-eyed dreamer like Picard. Her personality is very much "sunshine and puppies are great, but what good is your moral high ground when the Cardassians bomb it out from beneath you?"
And, I always felt that she and Picard respected each other. Like they might have been on friendly terms when their duty didn't get in the way.
"Ah, but you see the 'cloaking' effect is merely a side effect of phasing through all matter. If you don't interact with matter, you can't be detected. You see; we *weren't* developing 'cloaking' technology. We were developing an entirely different technology which simply happened to have some of the same effects."
--some Starfleet lawyer, probably
I hope that lawyer wasn't Kirk's lawyer, Sam Cogley from ST TOS episode "Court Martial". The quote sounds like it came from a Silicon Valley corporate counsel.
I think the "evil admiral" is something owed to Trek's history as well (just see Kirk's constant bias and racism against Klingons. Granted, they murdered his son, but still...). Trek was invented against a background of Flash Gordon, John Carter, Perry Rhodan and, to a lesser extent, lost in space. The Gernsbach-/Heinlein-esque trope of the competent man was still very much a thing and still lurks beneath to this very day, just in another guise in Star Wars (and keep in mind that the Motion picture could just be made because of that movie).
So, it is fair to assume that Starfleet promotes the typus of the "Competent Man" (and, later, the competent woman) who feels they are empowered to do whatever they want to do in order to reach their goals. And that mindset makes sense on the frontier: Think on the fly, take risks, be morally flexible, do whatever "needs to be done" to get ahead. As evidence of this, I would just point to episodes like "Patterns of Force" from TOS or the mentioned "Journey's End" from TNG, as well as to much of Sisko's and Janeway's actions in their individual series. Throw in young Picard from Nemesis as well, for good measure, and keep in mind that Janeway ended up being promoted before him (and yes, I actually like Janeway and most of her portrayal, but no, I don't think she is a morally infallible leader).
But there is a problem: That exact mindset can also lead to delusions of grandeur, to the feeling of not being responsible to anyone, anmore, which is why those people can become a menace to the very society they are sworn to protect- see the list above.
Everyone (unless they're clinically insane) believes they're the hero of their own story and will construct all manner of justifications for why what they're doing is right (even noble "I will make this sacrifice for the greater good"). It's good writing to assume that villains actually HAVE a justification for their actions as opposed to just being "because they're evil". But yes, when you combine it with rewarding the (occasional?) playing fast and loose with the rules that is practised by its Captains, it makes sense that they don't think the rules should apply to them - they never did before!
One could call the second act of this video “not actually not actually trek, actually”
Most evil admiral? Janeway. She erased the lives of billions of people essentially just to save Seven and cut her journey home by a few years.
As Thomas Wayne said, when he shot Zoom in the head and gave Flash a chance to rewrite history back to its former timeline, "Not necessarily..."
As temporal paradoxes go, Admiral Janeway was destined to complete a loop that was already in play, otherwise the Temporal Prime Directive would've applied, and the crew of the time ship Relativity would've stopped her. Those billions would've been splinters in time, and in need of "correction"...
@@ricaard Thomas Wayne was correcting the damage done, Janeway's timeline had not been altered by anyone, she altered it. And saying it must've been okay because no time agency stopped her does little to negate this fact. Admiral Janeway isn't evil though, arrogant and selfish yes, which I suppose is evil.
Fingers crossed for evil Admiral Janeway in Picard season 2
Dear Steve, I was born in 1970. In England we got Star Trek in 1978. I was the perfect age and I suddenly had a step dad who introduced me to the magic. I can remember my first episode - The Corbomite Manoeuvre. It of course rocked my world. I wish you and me could sit down and have a beer together. I am as enthusiastic as I was when I was eight. It would be a great talk. I have a deep and burning hatred for Sexually Transmitted Voyager, btw. Good day to you sir.
This week my audio fan series CHRONICLE has its season finale, which touches on exactly these issues. In it, Federation policy was directly responsible for allowing a catastrophe to claim billions of lives. Decades later, the consequences of this emerge--not least from the reaction of a larger, older, more powerful and profoundly ethical civilization they encounter. I'm hoping we do a second season, to examine what a turning point this must be for the Federation--and the "bad admirals" are exactly the ones who might make the situation so very much worse.
Wonderful video essay. You are one of my three favorite TREK youtubers--along with Jessie Gender and Trekspertise. :) Thank you so much.
i wonder how long it took for Professor Moriarty to realize he was actually locked up in a holographic prison box
Aside from the fact that this is just a great video, it's also the most subtle social criticism I've heard this week. And I don't even think that that part was intended... Well done.
I think part of the reason Satie came to mind over Pressman was due to Simmons theatricality. "I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard!" is such an iconic, OTT line that it imprinted itself on the brains of Trek fans, and elevated Satie to immortality. And Satie's antagonism wasn't just a "I've got to protect the Federation, the poor little baby!" It felt *personal*. I'm also tempted to being up the original Evil Admiral, Commodore Tracy, who committed the ultimate sin -- he beat up James T. Kirk.
If you're going to test an illegal widget you told the Romulans you wouldn't make - maybe do the test on the other side of Federation space from the Romulan border?
If all your channel was was you doing your summaries of Trek episodes I would still subscribe the hell out of it! Seriously, your summaries are as good or sometimes better than the episodes themselves.
You forgot the part of the episode where Riker visits the Holodeck to mull over if he should tell Picard the truth or not...
I think Scott Bakula was in that scene....
"Riker gets away with another crime" LOL
Fun fact:
I just found out yesterday that one of my friends lives next door to Fleet Admiral Alynna Nechayev from Star Trek (TNG, DS9)
Natalija Nogulich
m.imdb.com/name/nm0634101/
I’m glad that you did one of your recaps. They are my favourite parts of your videos and it was a pleasant surprise to find one in a not actually trek actually video.
I had a great US History teacher. We spent a month, I think, in the Native American forced relocations and exterminations. In South Carolina! All thanks to my awesome teacher.
I love your delving deep into Star Trek and focusing on the "humanity"!
20:22 in their defense that is a really stupid treaty.
For breeding purposes genetic engineering is allowed. Assuming that Spocks's mother (Amanda Grayson) was able to carry him part way to term (if not a full pregnancy maybe longer for a Vulcan baby) genetic tinkering had to be done. She had red blood and Spock has green blood. Spock joined Starfleet.
The really scary part is - if TNG represents the best crew in Starfleet, do evil admirals run roughshod over the worst crews in the fleet?
I guess the Pegasus they mutiny, but Leyton gets the red squadron to follow him
A useful rule of thumb my husband and I have derived is that if anyone justifies their action by saying it is "For The Greater Good" then they are evil.
im so glad you never have a giant microphone in your face. i dont know how you manage it. over the past few years all the tubers can only be heard through the largest mic possible, so you are a uniquely talented host
Well it took some googling but am I right that was a Tombstone(1993) film reference with the moustache ? I'm not so sure about characterising admiral Nechayev as just an antagonist in the same way as captain jellico. She wasn't rogue but she seemed to be fine with implementing a series of orders that would have had any of the main cast leaving their pips on the table,
Admiral Clancy started supporting picard just as soon as Picards crew had reasonable evidence to support his claims.
I think Nechayev is a good representative of the darker, more ruthlessly pragmatic side of Starfleet, for sure.
As for the mustache joke, that's a reference to 90's-era Terry O'Quinn in general. He had it in Tombstone, and in just about everything else I remember him doing back then, except "The Pegasus," oddly enough.
you know this video and the one about the Federation being the bad guys brought up an idea in my mind.
As the Flagship the Enterprise is not just a place to station all "the Best and Brightest Starfleet has to offer" but its also a pretty heavy PR tool. So it wouldnt be suprising that all the people inclined to being heroic good hearted get stationed there.
In the end there is probably a second Flagship running around where the crew is more inclined to getting their hands dirty as well as ships staffed by people chosen by one or more of the
"Evil Admirals"
I wonder if that second flagship is Constitution, Potemkin, Republic, or something else?
Once again, this was actually a good video. Especially the Pegasus Incident episode breakdown and analysis! Kudos!
If they’re not a main character and they’re an admiral they’re probably evil.
If the Enterprise encounters another Federation star ship they either turn out to be evil or blow up before the episode ends, lol
One of them did however go on to also be Sisko's dad so maybe he should get a pass? Lol