I entered the aviation industry at the tender, young age, of 16 years old. I began A&P school while I was in high school, and was a fully certificated mechanic at 19 years old back in 1996. I love aviation and will always be fascinated with airplanes, and if I could afford to I would be a true ticket collector ( right now I have only an A&P and Private Pilot licenses). Pay is my biggest issue, I don't believe that licensed mechanics get paid enough, not just for skill, but also for the knowledge we must have. We had a joke years ago that a pilot's books are only 3" thick but the mechanic's books are 20" thick. As with the PIC, the A&P mechanic can be held legally, and criminally, responsible for his mistakes. Pay is a big issue for mechanics, but it's more than that; it's also, at least for me, that there is no real future. I'm 47 now: my body simply can not do a lot of the work anymore. I am tired, but there is no real possibility for promotion or upward movement within a company. So what am I working for now? Only a paycheck, and this paycheck is worth only enough to make sure that I return to work the next day. What is the motivation for people to enter this work force? My career path ended my first day at my first job, and employers have no respect for A&P's because we already cost more money that they don't want to spend. In short, We aren't paid enough, and we have no future in the industry. Personally, because of my love for aviation I will continue as long as I can, even while being broke, broke down, and receiving no respect.
900 euro a month for a aerospace mechanic? That's well below the poverty line in The Netherlands. If the Greek want to keep em, pay em more. I for one would want at least double that pay, and i could probably get triple or quadruple that working for a similar company in the Netherlands. Plus healthcare and benefits and vacation days.
Well said. When companies don't want to pay the market rate as determined by supply and demand they end up short staffed and try to blame "greedy employees" who just want more money instead of the real problem; the greedy managers themselves who try to rip off employees as much as they can get away with in order to get the biggest bonus possible.
So true. I still don’t know why the market pay rate for a board member, executive, or chief officer is $5 million USD per year + bonuses + stock options + allowances? Yet the employees that work in a company’s operations are paid less than $100,000 USD per year or even less than $50,000 USD per year.
And that is not only personal opinion - that is also that the science of nation economy says. Supply and demand curves do not really have the concepts of "shortages". There can and will be a balance at any level of demand and supply. There are not enough mechanics? Simple - pay more. There will be more mechanics afterwards and fewer flights (because of higher prices) - and there will be a new equilibrium.
20 years as an AME. 13 years at the countries second largest airline. Certified on all of their aircraft types. 13 years of straight night shift while being on call during the day. Moved my family 4 times in those 13 years for the company. No raises for the last 6 years. They asked me to move a 5th time, take a 40% pay cut, and go to the countries highest cost of living city. I quit and within 1 year was making more money in a different industry…working day shift.
There IS a shortage of qualified Mechanics. I know; I'm one of the new ones. Before you go making comments about some cocky Gen Z nitwit, Know this. I'm 56, I've worked for 38 years as a technician (Master Composite Technician), the last 20 in Aerospace. I peaked in my field financially because there was no certification available. So, I've become an A&P Mechanic. The pay is no longer low (And is going up) and the demand is high. It does, however, take 16-36 months to create a qualified mechanic and the attrition rate is high.
@@peterfireflylund If you need a job done - the price you find somebody to do it is the "worth". If you don't find somebody - you are not paying enough.
Since the ECB is a government company the pay is the minimum allowed. I understand that since these employees have spent years working with aircraft one would expect some decent wages, but, again, this is how Greece works
A jeep mechanic & problem specialist I know quit his job & did bicycle food deliverys, he earns loads more the he use to & works when he wants to, perfect life
Its worse. Retired Engineering Manager here. They pay PMPs, CPAs, CEOs, CFOs, Analysts, and virtually everyone else huge sums of money, and spit on the Engineers. I've seen it. The outright contempt I've seen in the management meetings for engineers and technical people is beyond belief. After they demanded I cut salaries 40%, I was ready to go. Of course, they were doing that in secret...
I remember Piedmont Airlines coming to my school to recruite back in 2021 and they where only offering $18 to start then get a bumb up to $25 after the initial training. Mean while United Airlines was Hiring for $35 to start. When i heard that i was so dissapointed. I still Graduated and Got my A&P but decided to keep my job in the chemical Manufacturing Industry instead because the Pay was better, and the drive to the airport was 45mins to 1 hour away,.
Since I'm probably your age, and 10 years or so older than the poster. I think that this thinking that the technical workers are replaceable is a follow on of the shift in the economy of the US of running companies solely by the short term accounting outlook on profit rather than including the idea that you'd better have a nice product in the pipeline for 10 and possibly even 20 years from now. And that a reasonable amount of durability buys customer loyalty. I watched GE go from being a cutting edge company with R&D to the biggest finance company (GE Capital). Companies used to hire workers and train them to keep them. Now they expect a lot of them to show up with all the qualifications.
shot answer to chewing-gum-ing-ishly long article ... at 1st it was steam revolution, then came industrial revolution then came IT revolution and now is social revolution .. .post covid ppl have realized to keep staying home, "work from home" and be laxed ... and less productivity is also because they r using more of "go by the book" as weapon never before ... even if have to let go on high income... so whatever deltas this vlog is quoting is basically because of above said + automation + replace instead fix (even for large chunks of system/machine etc) ... Greece could be asking them to fix more and Norway etc would asking them to replace more to make sure everything maintains say Norway's world recognized flagship pristine and prestige which clearly contrasts with greece, romania neighborhood.
The key part here is "The company takes care of them" and not treat them as cattle to be slaughtered. So many US companies have a bean-counter mentality of shedding highly skilled engineers only to find that in 12 months time when the industry starts to pick back up again, they have to start recruiting and reskilling new staff. It's bonkers! Most engineering industries are very cyclic - they all follow basically the same curves of boom and bust with some variance. Does it not make sense to invest in training and up-skilling / using the existing skills you have to reduce waste and concentrate on streamlining business operations during a bust phase rather than dumping them when they also need security? You come out the other side with the fully skilled work force you had at the dip and you have the added benefits of a streamlined organisation and staff that appreciate being protected during a downturn. These are worth so much more than dollars in the pocket and I'm talking from experience.
@@rjy8960 Hmm maybe an engineer or at least a manager who works close with engineers and understands this stuff should be in charge... nah lets put in the admittedly useful bean counter outside of the role he's useful in!
Funny how executives pay rises and high pay are justified by them as “we need to pay the best to have the best managers” but that ideology doesn’t translate down the line to the workers…
Another really galling thing for my friend (the AME in a Canadian city) is to see, within his org, stupidity-with-toeing-the-party-line being rewarded with ever large pay packets as the policy destroys the ability of the airline to adapt to changing conditions. Boeing isn't the only company that is being destroyed from the top down.
“Huh, our retention sucks, I wonder why?” “How much do you pay them?” “About half as much as they spend on rent every month.” “Yeah, I dunno, it’s a mystery.”
@@smalltime0 Greek wages are nothing like Belgian or Norwegian ones, minimum wage in Belgium in engineering is €3.000/month and €17/h for overtime, they'd make five times more here. Ten times more if they move to the USA
It's only part of it, the youngest generation to enter the workforce is relatively small and so they're able to command higher wages because there's more competition for less people. I'm a millennial and so from a much larger generation. As a graduate engineer it was unbelievably hard to get a foot in the door (every job had thousands of applicants), as a result i was willing to work for free (I would work unpaid internships just to get experience while working a second job). Now I'm established in the industry and do quite well but my company is struggling to attract graduates from the next generation because they're a much smaller pool.
I remember watching a documentary a while back in like 2008 right after the crash about pilots who were going in debt and basically *PAYING* to work outrageous hours. They would basically have to share trailers near airports with multiple other pilots that they chipped in for and after flight school/certifications/etc they were making below minimum wage. They showed how they also were put on regional jets and doing these ridiculous back to back legs and were on food stamps because of the extreme low pay (like $18,000/year). These same people crying about a shortage blamed the “excessive amount of pilots” for the crappy conditions. So most burned out and then now you wonder why they don’t have the experienced pilots. Actions have consequences but corporations only think about how to cost cut even more and “next quarter”/their bonus. But shifting the blame is a common tactic… “*THEY* don’t want to work anymore…” said from a guy who spends more time golfing and never worked a real job he had to earn in his life.
Licensed mechanic here of 37 years in the industry. I wouldn’t recommend my son to do this job. This industry is a SLOW career progression industry. It takes a solid 10 years to earn your salt in experience, and you never stop learning. We can and do take a lot of crap to do this job. The shift work can be downright painful, the ongoing regulations you have to adhere to in one hand with operational pressures of company management asking ‘Why isn’t it serviceable yet?’ In the other hand. Working outside in woeful conditions, etc all take their toll. Company policy tells you of how you should work to the highest standards in theory, but then have you jumping from one plane to another fixing defects without adequate breaks is a recipe for mistakes. We should be on a ton more money for what we have to deal with and day by day things are getting worse. Nope. I told my son to become an electrician.
As a senior engineer with only a few years before retirement I have made some observations. I’ve also worked as a mechanic and a pilot at various times over a long career. One of the toughest things to maintain is morale, and it’s probably the most important factor in quality. When morale goes down, quality goes down. When quality goes down, regulation goes up. When regulation goes up, morale goes down. This results in a vicious cycle. I see it in my own job. Esprit de corps (morale) is the most important factor in the hyper-competitive field that aviation has become, yet upper management is blind to it, and views cost as the principal factor. Morale is the only thing that can cultivate the mutual trust that is critical to success in aviation.
shot answer to chewing-gum-ing-ishly long article ... at 1st it was steam revolution, then came industrial revolution then came IT revolution and now is social revolution .. .post covid ppl have realized to keep staying home, "work from home" and be laxed ... and less productivity is also because they r using more of "go by the book" as weapon never before ... even if have to let go on high income... so whatever deltas this vlog is quoting is basically because of above said + automation + replace instead fix (even for large chunks of system/machine etc) ... Greece could be asking them to fix more and Norway etc would asking them to replace more to make sure everything maintains say Norway's world recognized flagship pristine and prestige which clearly contrasts with greece, romania neighborhood.
Boeing offered me $18 per hour as an f-18 flight line mechanic. I was an avionics guy in the USAF. Another aircraft company was offering $28 I took an electrician job in the steel industry starting around $40 an hour. Aviation industry pays peanuts
Being a retired Enlisted Engineer with 26 years in the US Navy, I can understand the frustration and lack of appreciation we received. Our Weapons and detection technology are great. But it is the ships engineers that make it all work. With out us keeping the Electrical Plant and the Ships Propulsion systems working all the fancy weapons are useless. Unless the Ship can get to the battlefield, it is useless. Without out Electricity, The Radars and Electronic Counter Measures are useless. The Torpedoes can't be fired without the Compressed Air our Air Compressors Generate. The Airplanes can't be moved to and from the Hanger deck and flight deck without the Aircraft Elevators we maintain and repair. Face it without competent Mechanics and Engineers this world we live in would not exist.
I'm an AC Tech and basicaly my job is to guarantee that the roomtemperature stays at certain levels. simple enough right? thing is: my job isnt to make sure your private AC keeps runnigng but rather the i ones that keep all the servers cool. but we still get periodically beancounters that try to shove us arround. i have adopted a "i dont need this machine to run" attitude just to spite these kind of people. at least in my country you get paid better than most of these kind of pencil pushers yet they are still thinking they're somthing better. like that saying. when everything is working as it should be management wonders why they pay that much money, reversely when something goes wrong they still wonder why the pay that much money.
After getting out of the Navy, I spent 20 years working at the local hospital in maintenance and few people understood how important we were for the hospitals operation. Again we maintained the optimum temperatures in the operation rooms, we supplied the Steam for the Sterilizers and all the other services to keep the place in operation. There were a couple of Nurses and Doctors and and Admin personnel who understood our importance, but for the most part we were in the hidden underbelly of the operation until the crap hit the fan and then we rose to the challenge. I have no regrets for the life I lead and I am quite proud of the work I did both in the Navy and the Hospital. A lot of the people who worked there when I come in still greet me and my wife when we have appointments and we talk about the changes since I retired. Still a great place.
@@assasine08 I understand your pain. The old adage, "Accounts know the price of anything and the value of nothing, " is still true. Boneheaded decisions to save pennies that result in huge losses and sometimes the business-I will never understand.
As a US CEO my solution to the shortage of technical staff is simple: get the ones remaining to work 73 hours per day. The Excel model I used to arrive at this brilliant strategy can't be argued with, and the improvement in our bottom line means I'll get another fabulous bonus again this year. So it's a win-win all round!
One of the problems in common with a lot of scientific/technical jobs is that there tends to be a limit on career and job progress. You may be a highly skilled and hard to replace person, but there are managers, administrators and even human resources people (with far fewer skills) in most companies who are earning far more. And the only way to get on is to give up on your technical career and go into management. Sitting through all those boring meetings and driving an office chair simply pays better.
Yeah and they REFUSE to pay the skilled technician any more than whatever cap for that position they set since they can't have a lowly wrench turner making anything close to what management/admin/HR white collar types make. Even though the wrench turners are the ones keeping the entire business operating. It's all just ego. Almost every industry is like this. Managers get more money to feel special while signing the paper work. Meanwhile the sharp end of the stick that is actually doing the work that provides the product or service that makes the company money, gets peanuts. Than the managers wonder why no one wants to work for them.
@@josh885 Replacing management is easy. If supply and demand dictated the salaries of management, they'd be paid less than engineers, and hired from outside the firm. But people aren't always rational.
I was a mechanic for Atlanta's largest airline. A line mechanic with a little overtime can easily make more money than his first manager, a you get to leave your work problems at the door. And managers work longer hours.
I loved Peter saying: JUST PAY THEM MORE MONEY! Easy solution... But corporations always being corporations, always looking for profits first for their shareholders
Unfortinately there is a time delay between the shareholders earning profit and wondering why the company doesnt make products any longer they can profit from
It is likely no that easy per se - pay more is step one. Then likely the amount of maintenance needed on new planes needs to be reduced and become more automated. In the end, real growth in welfare can only occur with real productivity increases. But artificially low payment like in this case, can also lead to lack of innovation .. because instead of building more robust and efficient systems you can simply give "peanuts to the grease monkey" to fix and maintain afterwars. Like comparing galley slaves with a diesel engine in a ship.
Don't forget the obscene payouts for top execs and CEO's in these companies. The people who actually do the work seem to to be the least valued in these corporations.
@@gaiaiulia That is definitely a blight of our time - and not only because of the money spent. It is also because these are often managers - and we've seen this with the Boeing series- who are retained to optimize worker exploitation instead of driving real efficiency gains through better engineering. That is , why in the western world has low productivity growth now.
I’m an aircraft mechanic. This is the worst job I’ve ever had. It is brutal. My body and mind has suffered, the bad hours, exposure to all sorts of stuff, including noise, chemicals , etc. also dealing with toxic leadership , poor supervision, bad training. All of these things make it horrible. Pay is honestly not bad , but even if my pay was doubled I wouldn’t stay.
A close friend works as a 'pointless paper-pusher' (his own description) for our local authority. A neighbour's son works in some kind of engineering job (not sure what) for an (in)famous budget airline. Guess who earns more? Guess why I'd never consent to fly with that airline?
I've worked as a aircraft mechanic for 37 years. Retire in a year or two. I enjoy working on airplanes. I like the people I work with, management is reasonable. They bumped up pay the last 2 years a lot. There is turn over of people. Having so many new workers is stressful for everyone. Mechanics make mistakes in their first two years and cost the company money in reworks. Everything I read about Boeing leads me to think that is not a place anyone should work.
As a Greek I have lived abroad most of my life. Unfortunately the brain drain is real, it’s hard to retain talent with such salaries and life in Greece isn’t that cheap anymore.
Greece is great at cheaping out and losing money by doing so. They also lost the 4. ETCS contractor in a row. At this point they spent more money on peny pinching than the whole thing would have cost... It's a joke. Things have a proper price you pay it or you pay it twice.
With a 900€/month monthly salary --before taxes and dues mind you- a mechanic will never be able to buy a house or a new car - even in Greece. Why should anybody want that job?
Worked with a Greek guy for a while, nice guy, said the salaries there were unliveable, and his mother paid extra into her state pension her whole working life, on the promise of receiving extra money when she retired, only for the government to turn around and stop paying the extra payments to people who’d paid more.
As an AMT, just want to say thank you Peter. Having a voice like yours in support of us mechanics/engineers means a lot. I have a deep passion for aviation, and I love what I do. But it is so taxing and draining with these companies constantly wanting more and more productivity and output, but less and less pay and with bare minimum benefits. It's discouraging having such love for the industry, while feeling like we are constantly overlooked and borderline taken advantage of by the senior learship of these companies. You're encouragement and support gives me hope though and reassurance that I love what I'm doing and at least someone notices all the hard work and commitment we give. 🙏🙏
I saw this written in a Mesaba Saab cargo bay, except it was : Don't tell my mother. I work for Mesaba Airlines. She thinks I'm sweeping floors in a strip club.
As an active B1 aircraft engineer I wrote my thesis for my MSc in London University exactly on this subject back in 2017. My predictions back then were a 35,000 shortage by 2030 now worse case scenario predictions are 48,000 by 2027 in Europe and same in Northern America this acceleration can be attributed to fairly recent world events and other factors which you correctly pointed out. As an active engineer working nights on the line in all weathers in Belgium looking after x4 767s completely on my own, away from my home and family and after been refused a payrise I am unfortunately one of them very demotivated Engineers you mention. I would like to thank you very much and I appreciate your acknowledgment of us engineers and most crews do. Most folk don’t understand how closely Engineers and Pilots work together, unsung heroes comes to mind.
That is shockingly low pay. These are valuable employees with specialised skills. I'm an engineer myself in the UK (currently working on computer software for an American multinational, and before that I was a military contractor), and for reference I earn more in a week than these engineers do in a month. I'd say if they want to hold onto their engineers, they need to pay them. Edit: You said the same thing as me by the end of the video :) Obviously couldn't agree more.
POV: Southern American, African, Southeast Asian, Korea, China and other brain drain countries unable to compete due to less money. TH-camrs: those employers are just greedy. *compares high overhead/operations cost job with sitting in front of computer* Yes, greedy corporations is a thing that exists. Oversimplifying an issue is also a thing that exists.
900 Euros a month? Is that correct? I'd be surprised if they could hire anyone at that level of pay. No wonder they just wait to get the certification and leave. These are highly skilled people. Paying wages that low is an insult and they deserve to have no workers.
they can hire peoples... and train them... but they can't retain them once they're trained with such wages what they should do is compare the wage/living cost in Belgium/Norway with the same in Greece and add the hiring/training cost and look if the the difference is that big... if hiring/training mechanics cost more than the pay increase to be competitive, just consider it a cost saving measure
As an A&P Mechanic for 48 years, now retired, all I can say is anybody considering going in to the Aircraft Industry would have to be out of their mind.
Completely agree my friend. I was a mechanic A&P for 4 years and moved out of the industry bc of low wages and hard long working hours. Moved to a different industry and never been happier. Im just 28.
As a current A&P, I can say we are just like a step child of the company. We don’t get what we want and we don’t even know how to negotiate. Other departments give us a hard time just because they aren’t happy with their situation. A lot of the time the flight crew and passengers don’t seem to like us being onboard despite the fact they were the one that called us in the first place
The same applies for Brazil. I have all qualifications A&P, quality inspector but the pay was simply too low. Resign from the industry to open a car painting shop. I made about 5 times more at least and if I dont work well somebody`s car just dont get shinny in aviation if you dont work well you will be responsible for an air disaster. Love aviation but it simply doesnt worth the risk
45 years in aircraft maintenance. USAF then on to US major airline. I had a true love of aviation. When I see young people with my love of aviation I tell them to stay in school with a focus in medical, management, engineering (not aeronautical). Once established in your chosen career. Go buy an airplane and enjoy your love of aviation
As someone who got an engineering degree and wound up in a tech job ... It's pay, and a toxic work environment. Executives have maximized shareholder value in the short term, and that's all that really matters to anyone. People are very price sensitive. Executives are very greedy. Boards are very sensitive to stock price. Engineers are not missed in the short term.
I have an uncle that works as mechanics in airline, and he said the shortage means long hours and while overtime pay is good but it's just too physically draining, and workers can't say no to overtime work so they are forced to work 12 hour days daily, and sometimes 6 days a week. Many of them quit because of the long hours and it's just not worth it.
Thank you very much for pointing this out. One thing is to have better and more complex technology and systems. The other is who is able to do the building and maintenance. Expecting more and more from technicians and engineers and at the same time paying them less and less for their services can only lead to a dead end and an increasing error and failure rate. Nobody can have any interest in that. Especially not when the safety of all of us depends on it.
@@ChinnuWoW they probably get fired, or the union mandates it, if that's the case, if they want to stay in the union to be protected, then they are compelled to take the extra hours, the union probably corners people who are not unionized and compel them to join or get a job in another field
Myself being an aircraft mechanic totally agree with you on this topic. Long hours low pay and having the risk of losing it all if you somehow manage to get something wrong by mistake haunts me to death. Airline Management will market them selves as safety being their prime concern but they end up pressuring you to hurry up and take shortcuts in key safety maintenance practices as it will cost them time and money to keep the aircraft on ground.
Thank you for looking out for the guys behind the scenes, and you’re completely spot on in my experience as an A&P Mechanic. We hear all the time to not sacrifice safety, and then told to take shortcuts. My advice is and will always be to do what’s right because that’s my certification not the company’s, and the company isn’t going to help you if God forbid an incident/accident occurs. Putting out an airworthy product is way more important than some CEO’s end of year bonus! Love the videos, your channels are awesome!
As an AMT with 38 years of commercial aircraft experience at 2 of the largest airlines in the USA, I can honestly say this information is spot on. You will start out working midnights almost regardless of the company, also work every holiday, every weekend, every birthday celebration coupled with no prime-time vacation (summers or holidays) for the first few years, at best. At worst, this could be your life for decades! Once the younger guys, get a peek behind the curtain, it ADIOS! Add to all that the inherent hazards of working around things that can, and frankly do kill people, is it any wonder young people don't seek out this industry. Management is driven by getting the aircraft up, safety often takes a back seat to this goal, regardless of the lip service they give the FAA or anyone else. All this, in many cases, to earn less than the guy maintaining your Toyota. There are a few exceptional places you may earn more, but the working conditions are universal. There was a time when the pilots made approximately double what a top tier AMT made, now pilots make 4 to 7 times what AMT earn, they are certified on ONE aircraft type, on any given night you might be expected to service multiple aircraft types and if you are not efficient, there will likely be questions to answer. All this while actual classroom training is under constant attach, as unnecessary. Another thing no one considers is the ability to earn income away from your primary employment. If you are an automotive technician, an electrician, HVAC technician, you can earn with "side work" if you choose. This is virtually impossible as an AMT, there are very few opportunities outside your primary employer.
QANTAS used to have one of the best trained aircraft engineer workforces, right here in Australia. Their conditions of employment were excellent, the engineers devoted and loyal. QANTAS outsourced and discarded these people and this critical local resource.
@@ibsn87 Yeah the legacy engineers...not the new hires...Qantas offered me $35 per hour flat on night shift as a contractor...and I am fully licensed 30 years plus experience.
@@desobrien3827 I used to work as an AME at S.I.T. 20 years ago, saw the writing on the wall when we were told that QANTAS is looking at adopting 'best practice' by other airlines and Ansett going bust. Took the bronze handshake, got a lot more sleep and retrained as a civil engineer. Now on $56p/h wage building targets with no nightshift and less stress! Love aviation, but would never advise anyone to work for an Airline. And who wants to deal with CASA?
@@desobrien3827 sorry to hear your story-the foreigner(s) who strangely gained control of QANTAS disrespected the premium engineering workforce and also our brilliant, young 747-438ER airplanes. My sister was lucky-she was a flight attendant there (but also a qualified school teacher)-she took the QANTAS redundancy and ran. It’s not so easy for technical people like me.
In a recent interview on CBS, the CEO of AerCap explained that Boeing fired a lot of their engineers during the covid pandemic while Airbus kept their personnel. He mentioned that you don't employ a barrista to replace an engineer, and that it takes four years to train people to work on assembling airplanes, and in his opinion that is the reason why Airbus have the edge now.
Boeing was notorious for generations now for mass layoffs of skilled workers. It's literally one reason I avoided the company, despite living within walking distance from a VERTOL plant. Employers love reliable employees, too many employers forget that employees absolutely require reliable income.
My late father was an American Airlines FAA certified line mechanic in the 1950s through the 80s. He worked hard long hours, was seldom home and had a complete commitment to his work. This video is very relatable for me. Without the skill and knowledge of mechanics, planes would not continue to fly. Thank you for sharing this video.
What a great video talking about what the public have no idea is going on. Thank you for highlighting this important issue. I left the industry I loved here in Australia 18 months ago after 35 years. I started as an apprentice , worked hard and became a Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. For the most part it's been a great career and I'm certainly glad my Dad suggested it to me all those years ago. I've worked for small general aviation companies, medium sized airlines, large airlines, overseas companies and a charity during my aviation career. It's a career I am extremely proud of and 18 months later I still miss it sometimes. I don't miss the crap conditions like working outside in the rain, cold, heat, wind, asked or pressured to do or sign for dodgy shit, squeezed into a hole that some idiot designer thought would be big enough, treated like shit by management and companies etc etc etc. But I do miss fixing planes with some of the most talented and respected people I know. But unfortunately, in Australia at least, aviation isn't what it used to be and quite frankly, it is a race to the bottom regarding wages, conditions and standards. Since leaving aviation, my current employer pays me almost double the pay plus monthly and yearly bonuses as well as proper overtime rates to fix steam systems in factories, hospitals and other industries compared to what I was getting fixing planes. I have a company car that I have full use of with a fuel card and I am made to feel as part of the team and valued as an employee. I have had more company lunches in the last 18 months than all the shitty cold pizza I got in 35 years in aviation. So I get all that plus a few more things with NOWHERE near the responsibility I had certifying for the airworthiness of an aircraft. My stress levels have plummeted, my happiness has increased immeasurably and I'm nowhere near as grumpy as I used to be. My partner and kids are loving the new me and I reckon if I was to tell my better half I was going back to aviation she'd kill me. As I said I do miss working on planes but for me at this time and the foreseeable future, the risk versus reward of aviation just isn't worth it anymore. I just hope the inexperienced "engineers" they hire to replace those of us that left the industry don't f&%k up and cause a plane to come crashing through mine or anyone elses roof 🤞🤞🤞
I am a recently retired engineer. I worked in the UK, mostly on industrial machine control systems. Qualified to work on and design mechanical, electrical, electronic and software systems, I think I only moved jobs for the money on one occasion. While I had the respect of all my colleagues on similar grades, I found any respect from management grades almost absent. Undervalued at best, I usually moved job because I was tired of being treated as a disposable grunt. I also find it sad that the local university from where I graduated has closed its school of engineering in favour of business and media studies. We still need engineers and some things cannot be "outsourced" to lower waged countries.
The bigger the company the worse it gets ,best thing in my career was moving from big blue chip company after apprenticeship , 6 years of being a number to places that paid better and bosses that would make you a cuppa,take you for a pint ,small companies where you was appreciated
A&P no longer in the industry here. Not only do A&P mechanics make less than a car mechanic, we literally risk going to jail if we make a mistake. Not a good environment.
I worked closely, daily, hourly, by the minute, with a number of A&Ps over 45 years. As the pilot flying the helicopters they worked on I learned a huge amount of useful tech knowledge from them. Though they seldom left the ground they had just as much at risk for a mistake as I did. Nothing flies, or should fly, without the A&Ps say so. I have, and you should too, have immense respect for their profession.
Wait, what? No "just culture" what so ever over there in the US? In most of the "civilized" aviation industry "just culture" is where it's at. Persecution is only applied if the "mistake" was done intentionally, or if SERIOUS neglect is in the picture. Otherewise we tell about the mistake, things are fixed, and then we LEARN from what caused it, to prevent it from happening again. What you describe sounds like a "fear culture", which leads to people not speaking up about, or even worse, hide their mistakes in fear of retribution, and that is NO FUCKING GOOD AT ALL!
Topping out at $100/hour at FedEx is making less than a car mechanic? Maybe you weren't a mechanic long enough/didn't look for the right opportunities.
Spot-on! As an A&P Tech, I left the trade decades ago when liability insurance became necessary. Low pay and high liability. No money to buy insurance.
I've been working as a B1.1 Engineer for 5 years, with 4 of those years spent as a mechanic. The treatment and pay are extremely poor; I've never felt so mentally and physically abased in any job before. We typically work six days on, with only one day off, often on 11-hour shifts, far from our families. Additionally, we frequently work with toxic materials that take a serious toll on our bodies.
B2 here with 30 years experience. I can relate to your experience. Just want to add, when company treat its employee as expendables (consumable), don't expect the reciprocation of loyalty & courtesy.
@@antoinehomme606 absolutely! when i was leaving my first company where i spent 3 years, when i went to my bay manager and handed him my resignation the reply was ( you? where are you going to go? you are nobody, nobody will take you to work you are nothing my friend, are you sure about this? ), are you sure about this? )
It’s also worth noting that especially in EASA/CAA jurisdictions, an A/B1/B2 license is required to actually certify that a job has been completed. These licenses, especially a B Category license requires a minimum of 5 years experience to even apply for, including the several years it takes to complete an apprenticeship also needs to be taken into account. So even if a huge of influx of new staff comes in over the next few years, it’ll take many more years before these staff are in a position where they can actually certify work that has been carried out and supervise junior mechanics!
Hiring should be based on qualifications and experience alone, that's what we should all be fighting for. No politics, no stereotypes, no discrmination, no biases, no BS. Anything that's not qualifications and experience should be out of the conversation while hiring.
Respect goes a long way. Old job jumped pay (only because they were going to lose everyone) but then turned around and said “you’re going to have to earn it” As if we weren’t working too hard already.
As one of the sub 30 year old A&Ps, thank you for speaking on this subject! I have all sorts of feelings about this and why Aircraft technicians feel undervalued, but to put it into perspective for people who aren't involved with the politics- this issue is making the industry more dangerous at an alarming rate. When I started in the industry 5ish years ago, it was rare to see an incompetent mechanic because companies were fairly proactive about firing them since they were a liability. Now companies are so desperate for labor that they are hiring these incompetent mechanics again. A lot of them just don't take the job seriously enough considering we're on the front line of passenger safety, and some just straight up aren't fit to be technicians, but companies won't/can't fire them. The regional airlines are especially notorious in this regard. I worked with a guy who I would describe as dangerous because of his incompetence. When I was hired at that station, we had 25 technicians and someone would always double check his work and found an issue with it 9 times out of 10, and 50% of those were safety critical items. When I left, we were down to 7 mechanics, and while we did our best, sometimes there just wasn't enough man power to double check. We reported him to everyone we could think of and he received multiple writeups, but the company still wouldn't fire him. This is slowly making it's way into the big three airlines too. There's currently a mechanic working for one of them who's had multiple infractions, including one that did over a million dollars in damage to an aircraft, and he's working on flights as we speak. You may not think it effects you, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see an increase in maintenance related incidents in the coming years. It's tough to keep good technicians when we're paid less than elevator mechanics, and have a hell of a lot more to lose.
On a side note, if you want to see where a lot of the shortage started, the Northwest airlines strike in 2005 is a fascinating look into mechanic union politics (IAMAW, Teamsters and AMFA unions all did writeups about it, though I'm inclined to believe AMFAs version) and could make an interesting video... Those unions seem to be busier fighting each other than fighting for their workers benefits.
Yep, at my current company when I joined a senior tech needed 10 years experience. It's now 4 years for a senior tech. It's insane. These kids are getting hired in at the top level and they have never used or seen 70% of what we do. They don't even know what they don't know and the damage to the aircraft is insane.
A large employer near me has a program with a local community college that has a huge hire rate for the graduating students. And a-lot of that college’s Engineering majors actually switch to the more vocational program that is tailored to the needs of that employer, either due to hard courses, or due to the internships given to students at the college. With the well paying jobs, great company culture, low student debt, transformative internships, and the high hire rate you can see why. I hope that the aerospace unions can see this as a way to convince others to join the industry rather than having to “commit” to a working apprenticeship. [It also allows students to “go to college” and then say “whops, I make good money now!” to their parents, when they don’t get the full 4 year degree]
Thank you very much for explaining that. It also has something to do with appreciation and recognition. We don't just need great academics, we also need other work and services to be done well. Unfortunately, it's the same everywhere: fewer and fewer people are expected to be able to do more and more work. At the same time, other expectations are often rising, because one thing is to have better and better technology and another is who can maintain and repair it, for example. Where more and more is demanded for less and less in return, this can only lead to errors and waiting times increasing and employees looking for other opportunities where they can find better working conditions and better pay. The consequences of these problems affect us all. No matter what level of education we have. How nice it would be to live in a world where necessity does not lead to bad employment contracts, but where everyone can do their work in peace and security.
THANK YOU!!!! As a licensed AME, I truly love my career and don’t see myself choosing anything else. However, constantly being told by employers that we’re expendable, replaceable, and don’t have as much value as flight crew is extremely demoralizing. I completely understand why there is struggle to retain or hire new engineers. Here in Canada, some air carriers are offering pretty high signing bonuses, yet still struggle to attract talent. Some times it’s not all about the money, but more so about the importance of recognition.
Here's my two pennyworth. When I were a lad starting out in with a Big Airline we checked in and out with a roster clerk behind a desk. Chatting to an older guy it transpired he was a qualified AME. I asked why he'd left the ramp for a boring desk job. " Comfortable lifestyle, regular hours, pay as good (maybe better"). A few years later a friend did exactly the same. I think it's a Western (certainly British) cultural thing. Skilled manual labour is just not valued. Who would you prefer your daughter to go out with; a plumber or a lawyer? And when the water starts pouring through the ceiling...? Great series of videos !
I worked for a German airline company repair shop. In our area, American Airlines was hiring for mechanics with a very nice sign-on bonus. Our company came out and said just because other airlines companies are paying more, we are not. You can leave to another company and the company will write a good recommendation. This is a really bad way to treat your employees.
This all reminds me Machiavellian "Prince", that does not account for skilled workers and their mobility at all. The bean counters and politicians just don't understand how valuable skilled workers are, and not anyone can be trained to do that job.
I love how you display a high level of emotional intelligence in your videos, you’re not too quick to jump into conclusion, speculate and point fingers, you apply high level of diplomacy in sensitive issues which is really worth emulating. Been learning a lot on your 2 TH-cam channels
Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the public. Increased salary for engineers is long overdue but the job has little glamour appeal, the hours and conditions are not what youngsters are looking for Worked as a licenced engineer for some 40 years and left in 2020 as part of a mass redundancy program. In my group some 120,+ left with over 40 years experience. The industry was decimated of thousands of years experience virtually over night. My company stopped training apprentice in the early '80s and we spent over 25 years questioning management as to where the new blood would come from. Our questions fell on deaf ears. The industry is reaping what it sowed.
Thanks for your rant in addition to the usual detailed information. The heart of all these "shortages" are the attitude of Corporations governed by former CFO types who view workers as an EXPENSE to be minimized rather than a resource that is the heart of the value of any company.
One problem not mentioned here is the lack of hands on experience youngsters get with machinery nowadays. I'm English, in my 50's and spent 32 years in Aerospace Engineering. 23 years of these were in manufacturing. When I started most of us had experience with helping older family members or friends fix their cars, motorbikes, lawn mowers etc. A fair portion built model aircraft, some of which flew. We were mechanically savvy. This was whether you were on the shop floor or going in as a graduate. You simply don't see this sort of thing going on any more. When I was at school in the 70s/80s we were also taught Metalwork and Woodwork at school. This is something that is now rare. A friend was looking around a new school his children were due to start at. Seeing a fully equiped workshop (lathe, milling machine, forge etc) he made a comment about how nice it was to see. The reply he got back was that the school was selling off the machine tools as no one does that anymore in this country. A few years back I was giving a talk to some engineering apprentices when it became apparent they had minimal experience of making or maintaining/fixing anything. They had been hired simply based on academic credentials. An additional problem that we have in the UK is that engineering is looked down upon as being a lesser profession to pursue. This also puts the youngsters off as they don't think it would impress their peers. We do get youngsters through who are clever and mechanically competent, but there are simply not enough of them.
I am seeing the same, you have 5 years on me and I meet grads who have no mechanical skills whatsoever, the apprentices are a bit better, local college has started to teach machining again but it is clear that the college tutor doesn’t know machining either
I knew there was something going on when my 11 year-old son was considered a hero by his mates in our (French) village just because he could change a bicycle inner tube. When I was 11, it was normal to be overhauling your 1172 Ford engine for a valve grind when you weren’t driving it around the fields, at a school that had everyone doing either woodwork or metalwork O levels, and bugger the dangers of letting 13 year olds loose on a Myford. These things matter, because you don’t get a mechanical grasp of things by moving a computer mouse. If you don’t build things from Meccano with your hands as a child, or tinker with your Ford, you miss out on whole swathes of engineering intuition. None of the kids whose parents send them to see me, when they say they want to be a engineer, can even change an inner tube. It’ll be good to see the pay go up for the horny-handed sons of toil.
Once more, Mentour nails it precisely. People who damaged and even destroyed the company they work for (like Harry Stonecypher) are paid millions while those who build, maintain and fly the planes must fight for a living.
@@bartsolari5035 You mean that, even with lots of help, he triggered a catastrophe like the bankruptcy of MDD while they were having one of the best planes on the market (the MD-11)????? What would he have done if he had no help??? Wouldn't he massacre projects like the 737 MAX, the 777X and the 787?
Absolutely spot on with the pay comment. When boeing seems to jump through hoops to give its soon to be ex ceo a ~35% raise but neglects to ensure a decent living wage for its mechanics , there's a huge problem right there
My company was facing a skilled kabor shortage. We partnered with our local community college to create a certification program. Pay is good and once students started graduating, labor shortages have declined substantially. Companies need to take ownership for their labor pipeline.
I am always impressed by your excellent diplomacy, Petter. No matter which topic you choose to speak on, you are always able to get across both your truth, and opinion, clearly. You cannot be faulted for the courage to approach difficulties, as you are truly skilled in not skirting around issues, and also never getting bogged down by them. You say what you say, and then leave it to others to think on. I wish far more creators could be as smooth. It is refreshing to see such honesty and integrity in these times, when you could easily just create 'dramas' for clicks.
As a CIP (I spend millions on tickets each year) with a large alliance, it was just yesterday that I went to of a meeting with execs with one of the largest airline companies in Europe, telling them the same thing after hearing for the past 5 years how difficult it is to hire & keep good and hardworking people. It's not just mechanics, it affects pretty much every non-senior management type of job in the aviation industry. Fares are going up everywhere, the demand curve is as steep as never, coffers of full, so why is the industry not ready to pay competitive and fair wages? One issue I suspect is the fear of another melt-down in the industry, another is pure greed (the golden 60s-90s have created an inappropriate DNA in for most execs), and finally, the service fragmentation and artificial extensions of the value chains through contracting and subcontracting more and more aspects of the core business. And let's not forget: airline economics is highly complex and irrational at its best. Now, if that hinders us from paying decent wages, we have to radically change our approach in the industry.
Thank you very much for this video. The aircraft mechanic/maintenance technician is often forgotten and almost never promoted in a positive or heroic light. A main landing gear tire, for example, if it's found to be bad on a transit or through flight, takes about 2 hours to change (getting the equipment, maintenance references, actually doing the job, then completing and submitting final paperwork). In this scenario, the passengers will be mad and upset because maintenance is taking too long because their flight is delayed. However, if the captain decides to take that same aircraft as is (not changing that main tire) to avoid a delay, and something happens on takeoff or landing, and the pilots "save the plane" they are considered heroes in the public's eye, whereas the mechanics will be looked at poorly because that potential issue wasn't taken care of in the first place. Also, when was the last time, or how often do you see a commercial or advertisement for being/becoming an aircraft mechanic/maintenance technician? Most of the time, you see pilot commercials and advertisements.
I'm a UK EASA and UK CAA licensed aircaft engineer. I work in Scandanavia and we can't find enough engineers. For years there has been under-investment in training engineers, Europe's air forces haven't been releasing thousands of engineers like they did decades ago. Now I'm in my late fifties and this is the demographic of aircraft engineers; in the next five to ten years most of us will retire. It takes five years to go from nothing to holding a UK/EASA licence, that's before gaining the experience, knowledge, confidence and type training before issuing your first certificate of release to service. I really don't know how commercial aviation can continue like it does today...
In reality they can and will continue to. The reason is fundamentally division, corruption and backstabbing between engineers. And the companies use this very well to their advantage. Engineers never stick together, they undercut each other. It is very easy to enter with fraudulent qualifications and experience. If engineers had the same balls, integrity and professionalism as pilots they would have the same or higher salaries as pilots because that is what a real engineer is worth. Unfortunately there are very few of those.
@@user-qr4sj8xm3f my airline is going through contract negotiations right now, the under cutting and not sticking together has been rife. Normally the company would be able to make the most of this situation, but this time round they haven't been able to take advantage as they actually need to pay us more as they cannot attract staff. It's an airline that used to pride itself on being the place everyone wanted to be but now they barely keep hold of the staff they already have. The industry is definitely in for a huge shake up as to keep aircraft serviceable you need to have some people that know what they are doing, and to attract and retain them you need to pay good money.
About 15-20 years ago there was a sense of career growth in our profession. Then came churning out AME licenses, with individuals just going over a few hundred multi choice questions in a few months and then acquire basic licenses. The greedy airlines hired these novice engineers with no experience or skill because legally they could sign off an aircraft. Of course HR are the pimps who created this. The senior and experienced engineers were the real people who mentored and supported the release of the aircrafts. As Peter mentioned the number of stupid if not serious repeat mistakes that happen in line is because of such scenarios. For example look at the type course procedure since COVID. It’s the 147 training schools (private) and the airlines who are contracting them laughing all the way to the bank. What used to be real classrooms is now 2 months of excruciating online classroom with instructors just whizzing through slides. 147’s make big time $ with some old retired instructors and airlines save in hotel, airline tickets and per-diem costs. It’s pathetic. I can’t imagine how a new apprentice can even imbibe anything from a type course online. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. When you look at the input a professional engineer vs an inexperienced engineer puts in a turnaround of an aircraft you will be aghast. In the end it’s all about management and HR making their shots whereas the engineers and mechanics keep running in circles. But surely it’s going to come to a breaking point soon. At that point the bleeding is going to be profuse.
There's a really simple way of retaining those mechanics: Pay them more In my last job (a university space lab in southern England that's produced hundred of instruments onboard orbital and interplanetary missions) we were picking up Ex-Rolls-Royce staff mainly because we paid 25% more than RR does - and that "25% more" was only slightly higher than what's paid to UNQUALIFIED office workers (about £28k/year from the university, requiring government topups (welfare) - meaning that RR and the university were essentially obtaining undeclared governmental subsidies. I suspect the only reason GE/P&W/Safran don't file WTO dumping complaints is because their own workers are in a similar situation) More than one of those engineers decided that whilst they were passionate about aviation/space, the fact that 20 years into their careers they could get better pay working in a supermarket stacking shelves or operating checkouts - without incurring the expenses of maintaining qualifications or tools - mean tthat they would be stupid to continue letting passions dictate pragmatisim
I am a A/C engineer in Austria and in average we get a salary between 50.000,- - 80.000€ a year, depend on experience age of the worker. I am really shocked about the 900€!? Till you have a B License (B1/B2) you need at least 3-5 years, its a long and hard education. No wonder they say goodby to companys like that. About the conditions, like you said, they are very demanding. 12h shifts, 70% night shifts, tight workspace in aircrafts, noise.... I watch your channel sinze a time and I learnd much things through this and the mentoure Pilot channel, you do a great work. Thank you for that. Greetings a B2(Avionics)-Engineer.
I even have former co workers that had in mind to get the engineer B1 license and quit that idea cause being a contractor mechanic makes same amount with fewer responsibilities and not as much training.
@@karlelias Ja , ich arbeite bei der AUA und habe die Fachschule für Flugtechnik in Langenlebarn absolviert und ich würde es wieder machen, ich kann mir nicht vorstellen was anders zu machen.
@@karlelias Der große Vorteil ist auch die Jobsicherheit, auf Grund des Mangels braucht man relativ selten Angst haben den Job zu verlieren. Selbst wenn, Flugzeugtechniker werden überall gesucht.
I've been working in aviation maintenance for four years and received my A&P certificate seven months ago. While I'm no expert, I've seen firsthand how challenging it can be. Working 8 to 16-hour days to keep aircraft airworthy requires a lot of energy and a focused mindset to avoid mistakes that could potentially endanger lives. And yet, many of my coworkers still live paycheck to paycheck (obviously this might vary depending on location and employer). Aviation maintenance is a highly skilled trade that not everyone can easily perform, yet it's rare to see companies truly acknowledge and appreciate this.
Not only are corporation making enemies of their workers, for some bizzare reason making enemies of your customers is now a strategy used by so many of these corporation. It's a bold strategy, let's see how it works out for them.
Marx mentioned this over 150 years ago in Das Kapitol. How capitalism is a zero sum game in the end as it's modelled on Feudalism. You have the owners and workers, and eventually when you exploit the workers to where they can't afford your products, it all collapses. Eventually they turn on you as your products aren't part of their spending cycle/capability. In the end, you MUST balance your profit with your pay to keep stable long-term.
All I can say is you're a true officer, the kind that understands that the bars on their shoulders are a whole lot lighter with a team to support them.
I loved your sense of humor with your comment "rant over!" I really appreciate your videos as they are instructive and entertaining at the same time. You do a superlative job in my opinion.
I love a Mentour Rant ... I honestly agree with other commenters - it's not a shortage of workers, it's a shortage of workers willing to work for poor pay & conditions! I would love to train as an aviation mechanic, but at 50 & living miles from the nearest airbase I know it's not an option for me, but I follow all your channels & love your content Petter, so thank you so much for what you do ❤✈
There are only two groups of people that understand the value of maintenance engineers. Flight crews and ground crews. When airline board members and their accounts departments cotton on, the problem will be solved.
To put the 900€ per months for a qualified mechanic salary in perspective, the minimum wage (not even the wage of a qualified mechanic) in france is 1200€. Now it makes a whole lot of sence to change jobs with a salary like this
Remark: In the IT-Security Industry it is also bad. I was asked by several CIOs on how we solve that. My answer was: you can't hire your engineers, you must build them. If you try to hire your way out of this, you'll end up in a rat race. You have to create them yourself and use the time to bind them through company culture.
True. In IT security it's almost laughable how most people are random security testers than capable and paranoid security guys because we started prioritising nonsensical things like CEH certificates than looking for tech guys with the mental muscle to be security guys. The entire reason for this damage comes from ethical hacking community that comodatized and standardized a cultural and open system into generating useless and dumb testers. You need good hackers. Not the factory made "certified ethical hackers"
in the IT industry there is no gorverment controlled mandatory requirment of years before you can actual take on a certain roll...For aviation engineers, there is....
I'm 48, in the UK, and all of my experience is in office administration, compliance and auditing, and retail. I am very good at learning new skills especially if they are heavily procedure driven. I'm also looking for a total career change. Unfortunately these newer engineering and tech industries are an alien concept to me... busy doing other things. I am also very security minded as a person, risk aware and a totally clean record. After that lengthy introduction, a couple of questions. how would I find out if I have the capacity to learn the skills required to work in the IT and InfoSec industry?... Coding may as well be ancient sanskrit as far as I'm concerned. Could I even understand coding languages? Where can I find out more about the industry in general? Thanks In advance
Thanks for addressing this issue. Its not just the pay its the whole picture. I work in the EU as an B1 737 engineer for over 20 years and we are very over stressed. The pay in general is the same as someone else working in an maintenance environment. and because becoming an B1 engineer takes about seven years i find myself usually looking over 10 mechanics at the same time. And if they make one mistake i am the one to blame. This is pretty stressful but you get used to it. And als becouse there is such a shortage of B1 engineers you can never have a day off. We used to have an engineer who could not get time off for his honeymoon. And if you work in the weekends you can forget time off. Thats also a nice thing to talk about is shifts. We work mostly night shifts and that worns out the body pretty easy. And if you take the total picture it becomes clear. Imagine you have a birth day party scheduled from a friend and you apply for leave. You are not going to get it becouse you are to important for the company. The pay isnt worth it and the stress of looking after junior mechanics is to much you start to think. Is this really worth it? Especially if you see other industries working from Monday/Friday on dayshift witch the same pay? Lots of engineers i know stopped in aviation becouse the want a normal life with time for friends and family which i also find important. And i have to ask myself this every day, is this really worth it? Would my life be easier if i quit Aviation?
As a former Production Engineer (in the UK), during the 1950's I had a Technical High school education, (my first technical drawing started at twelve years of age) went into a full 5 year apprenticeship at sixteen and getting engineering diplomas by twenty one (1967), enabling me to understand manufacturing processes of the day, the physics of materials, machines, and enabled me to run a factory. That was in a country with Manufacturing representing approx 40% of UK GDP, which now has
Thank you very much for someone with your experience to say that. This can get us all into trouble and nobody can want that. It is one thing to have better and more sophisticated technology, the other is who can maintain it so that it can work. This requires more and more knowledge and precision in the work and the necessary monitoring. If employees are not well motivated and struggle with the costs of their daily lives, this can only lead to an increase in problems and waiting times. Nobody can want that. Especially in high-risk areas such as air traffic.
I am in a different but similarly underpaid industry, education. I can make the same money serving drinks in a bar or answering phones with zero stress and no insane unions or bosses to deal with.. Pay is horrendously low currently, for many blue collar type jobs.
"Just pay them more money!" YA THINK!!!??? I can stock shelves for $25/hour and get paid the same as I do working for Boeing 2nd shift. Bar-tending pays even better at most places and I wouldn't have to drive in terrible traffic 32 miles each way.
Hi Petter. When workers are meaningless for the companies, ( as you’ve seen during the pandemics), the companies become meaningless for the workers. They just run to another meaningless company who pay them a few dollars more. Have an absolutely fantastic day. 👍🏼
A very valuable and important reflection for the aviation industry, which requires urgent attention. On the other hand, we need more keen and considerate observers like you Mentor Pilot. You're simply the "Best"!!!!
I just graduated high school and I was seriously looking at being an aircraft mechanic but the education just costs too much compared to how much the job pays. The school near me wants 40 grand per year tuition, it's insane, not to mention room and board and cost of living. Instead it'll be cheaper to get a bachelor's in mechanical engineering at a state university and get a better paying job. They have to decrease the barrier of entry and increase pay if they want people to become mechanics.
@@kenoliver8913 I'm in Florida and since I got good grades and test scores in school the state is paying 75% of my tuition plus I'm getting the Pell Grant so it's not like the government gives you nothing here and now that I'm looking, there are public colleges that have programs for training to be an aviation technician so maybe I was being a bit too pessimistic before since I was comparing it to a private school that I keep hearing about. They actually came to my school and were talking to me about it but that's when they dropped the $40,000 bombshell lol. Honestly I don't know how private colleges even exist, they're so expensive.
@@MentourNowI work on the factory floor of a company making cardboard products. I literally glue pieces of paper together, and I get paid more than twice that, even without irregularity compensation. 😮😢
The familiar whine by so many employers "nobody wants to work anymore" and they don't realize or admit "for the crappy salary / working conditions we have". Some the reddit subs I follow have the simple statement "people don't quit because of bad jobs, they quit because of bad managers". All it takes is some college grad MBA coming in, thinking "I know more than the people who work for me" and proceed to micromanage people and suddenly your key people are working elsewhere.
I'm engineer, not in Aerospace but its a problem across the board. I work in rail, and the problem is the same, a lot of engineers are at retirement age (everyone from technicians to design, maintenance and highly specialist engineers.) The work is highly responsible and safety critical but the pay and conditions have been worsening. I have seen colleagues change to software engineering, patent law, consultancy, or work for better paying companies like Amazon or Google, data centres are another one where we are losing staff. The work is just as hard but the rewards are on average better. The business is waking to the fact that they need engineers and there is infighting amongst senior leadership trying to spread the increasingly limited talent pool. But renumeration does not reflect these realities and they keep wondering why people are leaving. You often find the same staff return as contractors or as consultants meaning the business now pays more to the consultancy to get the same member of staff they had inhouse.
I can't pat you on the back enough for pointing out this issue. I am ex uk military, crossing the decide is quite, time consuming and costly if you want your civil licences, plus I think you need to look further back, schooling has in the UK at least dumbed down vocational skills removing the practical hand skills subjects, so over all interest is waining,when I left the RAF asa technician I spent at least 8/10 years before gaining enough academic qualifications. I.e. a degree,, and project management qualifications to step away from the hands onto position myself for the design and test side of aerospace engineering. And it worked too I got to employ all the skills I learnt in the RAF, alongside my academics in aerospace engineering. Kindest regards MickT.
Oh man, I could write a book on this topic. One thing that's prevalent in the US is by and large the maintenance people working the grueling hours are often 2-3 layers deep in a contracted labor agreement, which I can say from experience stays on the front of your mind. I think the maintenance teams you're focusing on are just part of the wave of the same thing happening all the way back to the bauxite mines that airframes are born from. I've shifted from flight line maintenance early in my career to third party testing, to manufacturing and at this point I stay away from suppliers.
this applies to nearly every other trade in the western world, as well. management is creating unattractive workplaces for skilled trades, and trying to whittle down wages, and so there is no draw for people who would otherwise thrive in those trades.
@@MentourNow it is already becoming a problem. ambulance services in my area are coming up short of paramedics to staff ambulances. construction trades are chronically shorthanded. even our fast food industry is struggling to maintain staffing. and in all those fields, workers are expected to do more for less pay.
A recent study in Sweden showed an increased interest for young women to become truck drivers instead of nurses, maybe because that was cooler and better paid. Also I remember a study a few years back that showed that the lifelong income of someone going directly from high school to a job was higher that someone who went on to a technical college or institute, meaning a higher education didn't always pay off. Finally it has been, at least in the past a good cooperation between the unemployment agencies, the unions and the business to train people for jobs that are in high demand. In mid 70's and late 90's I got computer training for free so I could start working in the IT-business and it was mostly tailormade for the requirement from the corporations that in many cases were responsable for the training programs.
This forecast scares me. I've been working in this industry since 2006. I did a dual apprenticeship for 3 1/2 years and after a few years of investing my own money and doing lots of training, I became B1. Then, 2 years ago, I also trained as an A&P mechanic. I also paid for that myself. Now, with my experience and qualifications, I can say that my salary is sufficient and good. If you start with nothing, the pay is poor. And there's the problem, if you want to stay in this industry, you have to be sure that it takes time, that the conditions are not the best (night shifts, working weekends and holidays, exposure to harmful chemicals, noise, etc.), that you might be far away from your family, far away from home - because these jobs are not available in every area. What job would you choose as a young person with this background and compared to other jobs? I think the answer will be the same for almost everyone. But at the end of the day, I like being an aircraft mechanic, there are a lot of positive things about it. It's up to you what you want.
In my anecdotal experience, the big old multinational engineering firms *only* offer competitive salaries to people with decades of experience. Unsurprisingly, younger engineers/developers are drawn to different industries. You get what you pay for, which also applies to workers. The brightest engineers are offered twice the salary in big tech straight out of university or after working for these old multinationals for a few years and jump ship as soon as they can.
900€ is laughably low when i look at my current salary as an apprentice which is almost 200€ more than their salary. I work for a German regional railroad as a mechatronics engineer by the way.
@@MentourNow oh and i forgot to add that i get union benefits and yearly pay raises, also because of the union since that negotiates work contract Tarifs with the company.
€900/m?! There’s been so much of this “we need more people getting into STEM fields” but there’s nothing out there. I know SO MANY science and engineering graduates who can’t find jobs that get them paying back their student loans. They’re finding it hard to find industry jobs that’ll give them enough experience too.
Minimum wage for a 40h week in Germany is 2000+€/month. The average income is double that. And Greek certifications are accepted in Germany (as well as Belgium and Norway, with the later having an even higher pay). So it makes sense. Just one clarification: most European countries have free university education, so student loans are not a big thing here.
I was at an Engineering graduation recently, and every single graduate that I talked to was already employed in an engineering job. Science jobs are harder to get than engineering jobs.
Depends on what kind of engineering, yes? I know someone with a degree in electrical engineering/computer science who’s running out of space to stack his money.
Lots of unpaid internships, though. lol. The hubris of these companies to think that you should be a literal peasant and grovel at their feet to get hired is insane. So they go into IT or other fields that pay more.
@@spacecadet35 Which part of the world are you at and in which engineering discipline ? For exemple, Canada has a high underemployment rate for engineering graduates.
Spot on… The day I left Lockheed Martin as a Sr. Systems Engineer and took my skills into another field, my paycheck DOUBLED… Five years later I was making TRIPLE what my former colleagues were making. And equally important if not more so, is the difference in the pace of evolution outside the major airframe manufactures. The later moves glacially in comparison any other engineering field - which presents a problem for employees. When working for an airframe manufacturer you are constantly falling behind technology in comparison to your peers - at the same time being employed in an industry with wild swings in business conditions… it’s self-sabotage to your career, and it never leaves the back of your mind - because you know if there is a hiccup, you don’t have the skills to compete in the open market. In short, you are trapped and you know it…. And that NEVER leaves your mind…. The best career move I ever made was getting out of aerospace when i did, and I’ve never looked back….
thank you very much for the acknowledgment to AMT’s, it is much appreciated. the general public mostly have no idea the MX required and what it takes to allow them to travel
I agree . Back in 1966 United came to our high school and recruited graduates to enroll into a 2 year program to become pilots for united . The same junior college also had a parallel program for A & P mechanics . This is what is still needed and an obvious solution to today's shortfalls . Short sighted CEO,s can only be controlled by UNIONS ! Your employees are your partners not your slaves to be used and abused . Equality and Respect go hand in hand with success !
I know Greece is a relatively low-paying country, at least by European standards, but €900 a month for skilled engineers? That's less than half the minimum wage here in the UK, in other words what you'd get for a full-time job working at a supermarket checkout.
It's a joke even for Greece - it's actually not hard to find qualified work for 2000 Euro in Greece entry level Callcenter jobs make you more than 900 Euro.
It's less than I get in a month for my State pension here in the Republic of Ireland. Mechanics should be paid way more. They're the people who keep the aircraft airworthy, after all.
900€ per month is crazy low. I can absolutely understand why these people leave. I am in my first year of training to become an aircraft electrician and I get almost 300€ more
Hello Mentour! Long time watcher, first time commenter here. This video hits home really hard since I literally quit EAB today to pursue a career close to my home town since I don't originate from the Attica region. I'm not a mechanic though. The company also offers easa rated training for aircraft mechanics and is easa part 147 certified. Their training sector is where I worked and is pretty much the same story as the mechanic story you mention. 900 Euros / month (net income) is a joke for any highly skilled / highly educated professional like 95% of the people working there. In Athens (at least an hour's drive away) or in Chalkida, rent prices for anything that doesn't resemble a rat's nest start at 450E. Thats' 50% of the EAB salary lol try to live on 450E/month, even in "lower cost" Greece as some other people here commented about, and I will eat my nose. Its such a sad sight to see highly skilled people qutting after a year with the acquired certifications in hand, but the company offers no incentive for anyone to keep working there (ie. housing assistance or pay raise), so what do they except people to do? keep slaving away?
There is another problem too, back in the day I remember many kids like me, had dream jobs like I want to be a pilot, or an engineer. Nowdays, kids like to be a TH-camr, a tiktoker or anything they can be a celebrity. I think the same problem will be in other fields as well like shipping and car industry.
I think no small part of that change is gen Z listening to their older brothers and uncles about how their careers have treated them, in all industries. Gen Z knows that nowadays, if you're not a CEO you had better be famous - everyone else is getting screwed
I was an mechanic apprentice for an MRO back in 2021/2022 that was co-operating with a training facility in Norway. We used to work 10 hour shifts in 4 day periods, with a pay of 5 euros per hour. Long story short, they decided it was a good idea to not make facemasks mandatory at the time which resulted in a lot of us testing positive for C19. I was out for a very long time and by the end of it, they kicked me out. Also has to be said my motivation level was very low due to the fact that I was far away from home, long days, poor mentoring, depression etc, so from that stand point it's understandable why they would do this. Anyways, fast forward a few weeks I get sent back to Norway and was later sent to another maintenance/training facility in Sweden and was supposed to be there for two weeks. Less than halfway through this 2 week period I get a phonecall from the boss at the norwegian training facility telling me that they were ending my apprenticeship early due to poor motivation, lack of skills etc. Even though the only thing we did in my time in Sweden was clean out a nearby hangar. The only thing we did as far as "maintenance" goes was take off and re-install a engine cover on a Cessna, and remove the sparkplugs off a helicopter. So I didn't understand and still don't understand how they thought that was enough of an evaluation to terminate my apprenticeship, but yeah. I've since tried to get back into the industry but without luck, they say once you fall out it's near impossible to get back in. With several of the companies/airlines I applied to, not even taking the time to send me an e-mail telling me why they wouldn't consider me, or that I simply was out of the running, nothing, dead silence. At the end of it all it really left a poor taste in my mouth on the maintenance side of aviation. Especially since I feel like I wasted 3-4 years of my life working hard towards something that ultimately would be worthless in the end. Obviously if I could go back and change things, I would, and it's not all the companies fault, I'm not perfect. But I truly think it could have been handled better. I'm now on a different carrier path that will hopefully end in something better. Anyways, don't know if anyone will read this. Just wanted to give my two cents on this whole situation.
The hubris of many companies is the problem. They think that their business is the only one that is important. That you need to be perfect and the best of the best to even be considered to set foot on their property. top-down, completely vertical management and think that you should be willing to work for free to be part of their business - but that they must pay you something, due to unions or laws. that is, "you should feel blessed to even have this job offer" (despite them being 3rd from last place, even - completely blind management).
As of this comment, I am a senior in electrical engineering. I have a desire to work in the aviation industry, specifically aircraft maintenance. I really appreciate the video, showing what I could be facing when I graduate next year.
I'm a CAA and EASA Licenced Engineer, this issue goes way back to the early 2000s. After this date company commitment to training/help died, in the 90s part of our monthly talk was who was studying for their licence, who had their exam/oral and who had their new licence. We as Engineers highlighted this lack of training to the company but had the reply of,, why should we invest in people who might leave,, we don't need anyone. It was plain as day as to what the whole industry was heading for. The airline I worked for then started to started to loose Licenced Engineers in 2013 every year to today 2+ Engineers retire or move on. There is a total lack of understanding on how you get an experienced Aircraft Engineer 70% is hands on, 30% is your type rating knowledge. That's why it takes time to learn these skills it also filters out people who do not like this type of work. The best Aircraft Engineers have hand skills and use Aircraft knowledge to it's best to safely find, fix and turn a broken Aircraft into a serviceable one. The 20 plus year's is one big gap of experience to fill, really it's impossible. What's happening now is a watering down of skills required using one Engineer to sign off multiple work zones, where as before you would have an engineer on each work zone. You don't get an Engineer from just passing the Authorities exam, year's of Aircraft hands on knowledge will..
As a retired engineer I can assure you that management always tries to keep us on low pay scales, even though one error on our part will likely result in equipment failure leading to possible fatalities.
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
Use code "mentournow" and the link below to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan: incogni.com/mentournow
ahhh because you'll need it after trying betterhelp, clever
I entered the aviation industry at the tender, young age, of 16 years old. I began A&P school while I was in high school, and was a fully certificated mechanic at 19 years old back in 1996. I love aviation and will always be fascinated with airplanes, and if I could afford to I would be a true ticket collector ( right now I have only an A&P and Private Pilot licenses). Pay is my biggest issue, I don't believe that licensed mechanics get paid enough, not just for skill, but also for the knowledge we must have. We had a joke years ago that a pilot's books are only 3" thick but the mechanic's books are 20" thick. As with the PIC, the A&P mechanic can be held legally, and criminally, responsible for his mistakes.
Pay is a big issue for mechanics, but it's more than that; it's also, at least for me, that there is no real future. I'm 47 now: my body simply can not do a lot of the work anymore. I am tired, but there is no real possibility for promotion or upward movement within a company. So what am I working for now? Only a paycheck, and this paycheck is worth only enough to make sure that I return to work the next day. What is the motivation for people to enter this work force? My career path ended my first day at my first job, and employers have no respect for A&P's because we already cost more money that they don't want to spend.
In short, We aren't paid enough, and we have no future in the industry. Personally, because of my love for aviation I will continue as long as I can, even while being broke, broke down, and receiving no respect.
900 euro a month for a aerospace mechanic? That's well below the poverty line in The Netherlands. If the Greek want to keep em, pay em more. I for one would want at least double that pay, and i could probably get triple or quadruple that working for a similar company in the Netherlands. Plus healthcare and benefits and vacation days.
fancy thumbail being deceptive are we. Mr Boeing lover.
What will kill the industry is DEI. I wouldn't fly if they were to make it totally free of charge, it is what it is.
So far every single "shortage" a company complained about can be summed up to "we don't want to pay them market rate"...
Well said. When companies don't want to pay the market rate as determined by supply and demand they end up short staffed and try to blame "greedy employees" who just want more money instead of the real problem; the greedy managers themselves who try to rip off employees as much as they can get away with in order to get the biggest bonus possible.
more like "livable wage" market rate is bs because it relies on an average and even then big companies can collude to bring that market rate down :(
So true. I still don’t know why the market pay rate for a board member, executive, or chief officer is $5 million USD per year + bonuses + stock options + allowances? Yet the employees that work in a company’s operations are paid less than $100,000 USD per year or even less than $50,000 USD per year.
@@YamiPheonix531Well it's simple, really. Because the board members decide who gets what rate.
And that is not only personal opinion - that is also that the science of nation economy says. Supply and demand curves do not really have the concepts of "shortages". There can and will be a balance at any level of demand and supply. There are not enough mechanics? Simple - pay more. There will be more mechanics afterwards and fewer flights (because of higher prices) - and there will be a new equilibrium.
20 years as an AME. 13 years at the countries second largest airline. Certified on all of their aircraft types. 13 years of straight night shift while being on call during the day. Moved my family 4 times in those 13 years for the company. No raises for the last 6 years. They asked me to move a 5th time, take a 40% pay cut, and go to the countries highest cost of living city. I quit and within 1 year was making more money in a different industry…working day shift.
Glad you had the balls to make the move. Hope you have better times now❤️
Which industry did you go to
That was a real shit hole job you had! Glad your doing well now!😀😀😀
Let me guess …. Westjet
And this is all too familiar a story. Really high handed and callous management.
There's never a shortage of workers, only a shortage of workers willing to work for low pay.
Maybe there is a shortage of people who are worth paying a lot for?
Easy fix: More mass immigration. :)
Then it depends on how much travelers are willing to pay their ticket...
There IS a shortage of qualified Mechanics. I know; I'm one of the new ones. Before you go making comments about some cocky Gen Z nitwit, Know this. I'm 56, I've worked for 38 years as a technician (Master Composite Technician), the last 20 in Aerospace. I peaked in my field financially because there was no certification available. So, I've become an A&P Mechanic. The pay is no longer low (And is going up) and the demand is high. It does, however, take 16-36 months to create a qualified mechanic and the attrition rate is high.
@@peterfireflylund If you need a job done - the price you find somebody to do it is the "worth". If you don't find somebody - you are not paying enough.
900€ per month for an engineer??
I made ~1600€ per month delivering groceries on a bicycle in Germany and that wasn't even a full time job
That is Greece for you
@@BoomBit1 I knew the ECB austerity polices fucked the working class over, but that people with degrees still can't make a living is wild
Since the ECB is a government company the pay is the minimum allowed. I understand that since these employees have spent years working with aircraft one would expect some decent wages, but, again, this is how Greece works
A jeep mechanic & problem specialist I know quit his job & did bicycle food deliverys, he earns loads more the he use to & works when he wants to, perfect life
We pay 1880€ (equivalent) for washing dishes or 7-11 cashier in Hong Kong. No wonder they leave for Europe.
Its worse. Retired Engineering Manager here. They pay PMPs, CPAs, CEOs, CFOs, Analysts, and virtually everyone else huge sums of money, and spit on the Engineers. I've seen it. The outright contempt I've seen in the management meetings for engineers and technical people is beyond belief. After they demanded I cut salaries 40%, I was ready to go. Of course, they were doing that in secret...
That's so wrong - you guys are what it's all about...thank you.
I remember Piedmont Airlines coming to my school to recruite back in 2021 and they where only offering $18 to start then get a bumb up to $25 after the initial training. Mean while United Airlines was Hiring for $35 to start. When i heard that i was so dissapointed. I still Graduated and Got my A&P but decided to keep my job in the chemical Manufacturing Industry instead because the Pay was better, and the drive to the airport was 45mins to 1 hour away,.
@@bjalbern Christ; if you were living in Denmark you'd get better pay working at McDonald's.
Since I'm probably your age, and 10 years or so older than the poster. I think that this thinking that the technical workers are replaceable is a follow on of the shift in the economy of the US of running companies solely by the short term accounting outlook on profit rather than including the idea that you'd better have a nice product in the pipeline for 10 and possibly even 20 years from now. And that a reasonable amount of durability buys customer loyalty. I watched GE go from being a cutting edge company with R&D to the biggest finance company (GE Capital). Companies used to hire workers and train them to keep them. Now they expect a lot of them to show up with all the qualifications.
shot answer to chewing-gum-ing-ishly long article ... at 1st it was steam revolution, then came industrial revolution then came IT revolution and now is social revolution .. .post covid ppl have realized to keep staying home, "work from home" and be laxed ... and less productivity is also because they r using more of "go by the book" as weapon never before ... even if have to let go on high income... so whatever deltas this vlog is quoting is basically because of above said + automation + replace instead fix (even for large chunks of system/machine etc) ... Greece could be asking them to fix more and Norway etc would asking them to replace more to make sure everything maintains say Norway's world recognized flagship pristine and prestige which clearly contrasts with greece, romania neighborhood.
From my long experience, people will stick with a hard, crappy job as long as the money is right and the company takes care of them.
Yep, I would say that’s likely correct
The key part here is "The company takes care of them" and not treat them as cattle to be slaughtered. So many US companies have a bean-counter mentality of shedding highly skilled engineers only to find that in 12 months time when the industry starts to pick back up again, they have to start recruiting and reskilling new staff. It's bonkers!
Most engineering industries are very cyclic - they all follow basically the same curves of boom and bust with some variance. Does it not make sense to invest in training and up-skilling / using the existing skills you have to reduce waste and concentrate on streamlining business operations during a bust phase rather than dumping them when they also need security? You come out the other side with the fully skilled work force you had at the dip and you have the added benefits of a streamlined organisation and staff that appreciate being protected during a downturn. These are worth so much more than dollars in the pocket and I'm talking from experience.
Low wages and high expectations. How come that's not working out?
🫣😉
Ironically that's exactly how I feel about Amazon
@@rjy8960 Hmm maybe an engineer or at least a manager who works close with engineers and understands this stuff should be in charge...
nah lets put in the admittedly useful bean counter outside of the role he's useful in!
Funny how executives pay rises and high pay are justified by them as “we need to pay the best to have the best managers” but that ideology doesn’t translate down the line to the workers…
The 'best' managers are the ones that can extract the most money from workers and consumers.
Correct. One can be a good CEO or a bad CEO. A bad CEO still makes a ton of money to go away.
Another really galling thing for my friend (the AME in a Canadian city) is to see, within his org, stupidity-with-toeing-the-party-line being rewarded with ever large pay packets as the policy destroys the ability of the airline to adapt to changing conditions. Boeing isn't the only company that is being destroyed from the top down.
@@stage6fan475 Shareholders put management there to raid the company for their own benefit. Principal agent theory is destroying business.
Boeing's Calhoun is leaving at the end of the year. But not without a boat load of money...
“Huh, our retention sucks, I wonder why?”
“How much do you pay them?”
“About half as much as they spend on rent every month.”
“Yeah, I dunno, it’s a mystery.”
It can't seriously be 900 EUR a month.
@@smalltime0in greece it’s not unusual
@@smalltime0 Greek wages are nothing like Belgian or Norwegian ones, minimum wage in Belgium in engineering is €3.000/month and €17/h for overtime, they'd make five times more here. Ten times more if they move to the USA
It's only part of it, the youngest generation to enter the workforce is relatively small and so they're able to command higher wages because there's more competition for less people.
I'm a millennial and so from a much larger generation. As a graduate engineer it was unbelievably hard to get a foot in the door (every job had thousands of applicants), as a result i was willing to work for free (I would work unpaid internships just to get experience while working a second job). Now I'm established in the industry and do quite well but my company is struggling to attract graduates from the next generation because they're a much smaller pool.
I remember watching a documentary a while back in like 2008 right after the crash about pilots who were going in debt and basically *PAYING* to work outrageous hours. They would basically have to share trailers near airports with multiple other pilots that they chipped in for and after flight school/certifications/etc they were making below minimum wage.
They showed how they also were put on regional jets and doing these ridiculous back to back legs and were on food stamps because of the extreme low pay (like $18,000/year). These same people crying about a shortage blamed the “excessive amount of pilots” for the crappy conditions.
So most burned out and then now you wonder why they don’t have the experienced pilots. Actions have consequences but corporations only think about how to cost cut even more and “next quarter”/their bonus. But shifting the blame is a common tactic… “*THEY* don’t want to work anymore…” said from a guy who spends more time golfing and never worked a real job he had to earn in his life.
Licensed mechanic here of 37 years in the industry. I wouldn’t recommend my son to do this job. This industry is a SLOW career progression industry. It takes a solid 10 years to earn your salt in experience, and you never stop learning. We can and do take a lot of crap to do this job. The shift work can be downright painful, the ongoing regulations you have to adhere to in one hand with operational pressures of company management asking ‘Why isn’t it serviceable yet?’ In the other hand. Working outside in woeful conditions, etc all take their toll. Company policy tells you of how you should work to the highest standards in theory, but then have you jumping from one plane to another fixing defects without adequate breaks is a recipe for mistakes. We should be on a ton more money for what we have to deal with and day by day things are getting worse.
Nope. I told my son to become an electrician.
As a senior engineer with only a few years before retirement I have made some observations. I’ve also worked as a mechanic and a pilot at various times over a long career. One of the toughest things to maintain is morale, and it’s probably the most important factor in quality. When morale goes down, quality goes down. When quality goes down, regulation goes up. When regulation goes up, morale goes down. This results in a vicious cycle. I see it in my own job. Esprit de corps (morale) is the most important factor in the hyper-competitive field that aviation has become, yet upper management is blind to it, and views cost as the principal factor. Morale is the only thing that can cultivate the mutual trust that is critical to success in aviation.
And how many CEOs are ex-airline pilots?
feels like its not affecting just the aviation industry, but probably a majority of manufacturing industries.
shot answer to chewing-gum-ing-ishly long article ... at 1st it was steam revolution, then came industrial revolution then came IT revolution and now is social revolution .. .post covid ppl have realized to keep staying home, "work from home" and be laxed ... and less productivity is also because they r using more of "go by the book" as weapon never before ... even if have to let go on high income... so whatever deltas this vlog is quoting is basically because of above said + automation + replace instead fix (even for large chunks of system/machine etc) ... Greece could be asking them to fix more and Norway etc would asking them to replace more to make sure everything maintains say Norway's world recognized flagship pristine and prestige which clearly contrasts with greece, romania neighborhood.
Oh yeah. That vicious cycle of morale, quality and regulation really hits home. I've been living it for the last 15 years in my industry.
That may be right, but the principal cause of morale going down is crappy pay and working conditions before anything else.
As an aircraft engineer, this is spot on. I have almost 20 years of experience and love what I do. But if I had to start again, fuck that.
I’m going to steal your last sentence…😂 it’s expressive of common sentiments we have toward abusive, exploitative employers and management.
Oh never fear, AI will come to the rescue. Which will then create a new boom in roof repair and building construction...
Boeing offered me $18 per hour as an f-18 flight line mechanic. I was an avionics guy in the USAF.
Another aircraft company was offering $28
I took an electrician job in the steel industry starting around $40 an hour.
Aviation industry pays peanuts
And i guess that wasn't 1990?
@@koneofsilence5896 2016
Meanwhile, Walmart pays $15 to stock shelves.
@@koneofsilence5896 2016
And Amazon pays my son $20 to work on the shipping dock! You just need to work very hard physically.
Being a retired Enlisted Engineer with 26 years in the US Navy, I can understand the frustration and lack of appreciation we received. Our Weapons and detection technology are great. But it is the ships engineers that make it all work. With out us keeping the Electrical Plant and the Ships Propulsion systems working all the fancy weapons are useless. Unless the Ship can get to the battlefield, it is useless. Without out Electricity, The Radars and Electronic Counter Measures are useless. The Torpedoes can't be fired without the Compressed Air our Air Compressors Generate. The Airplanes can't be moved to and from the Hanger deck and flight deck without the Aircraft Elevators we maintain and repair. Face it without competent Mechanics and Engineers this world we live in would not exist.
Exactly my point!
Feel you. Fellow undervalued engineer here. Were like the drains, management don’t notice until we’re not working.
I'm an AC Tech and basicaly my job is to guarantee that the roomtemperature stays at certain levels. simple enough right?
thing is: my job isnt to make sure your private AC keeps runnigng but rather the i ones that keep all the servers cool. but we still get periodically beancounters that try to shove us arround. i have adopted a "i dont need this machine to run" attitude just to spite these kind of people. at least in my country you get paid better than most of these kind of pencil pushers yet they are still thinking they're somthing better.
like that saying. when everything is working as it should be management wonders why they pay that much money, reversely when something goes wrong they still wonder why the pay that much money.
After getting out of the Navy, I spent 20 years working at the local hospital in maintenance and few people understood how important we were for the hospitals operation. Again we maintained the optimum temperatures in the operation rooms, we supplied the Steam for the Sterilizers and all the other services to keep the place in operation. There were a couple of Nurses and Doctors and and Admin personnel who understood our importance, but for the most part we were in the hidden underbelly of the operation until the crap hit the fan and then we rose to the challenge. I have no regrets for the life I lead and I am quite proud of the work I did both in the Navy and the Hospital. A lot of the people who worked there when I come in still greet me and my wife when we have appointments and we talk about the changes since I retired. Still a great place.
@@assasine08 I understand your pain. The old adage, "Accounts know the price of anything and the value of nothing, " is still true. Boneheaded decisions to save pennies that result in huge losses and sometimes the business-I will never understand.
As a US CEO my solution to the shortage of technical staff is simple: get the ones remaining to work 73 hours per day. The Excel model I used to arrive at this brilliant strategy can't be argued with, and the improvement in our bottom line means I'll get another fabulous bonus again this year. So it's a win-win all round!
Haha you mong
It seems to be catching on in other places in the world. The presenters first example didn't sound US.
What’s terrifying is that management actually thinks like that
One of the problems in common with a lot of scientific/technical jobs is that there tends to be a limit on career and job progress. You may be a highly skilled and hard to replace person, but there are managers, administrators and even human resources people (with far fewer skills) in most companies who are earning far more. And the only way to get on is to give up on your technical career and go into management. Sitting through all those boring meetings and driving an office chair simply pays better.
Yeah and they REFUSE to pay the skilled technician any more than whatever cap for that position they set since they can't have a lowly wrench turner making anything close to what management/admin/HR white collar types make. Even though the wrench turners are the ones keeping the entire business operating. It's all just ego. Almost every industry is like this. Managers get more money to feel special while signing the paper work. Meanwhile the sharp end of the stick that is actually doing the work that provides the product or service that makes the company money, gets peanuts. Than the managers wonder why no one wants to work for them.
@@josh885
Replacing management is easy. If supply and demand dictated the salaries of management, they'd be paid less than engineers, and hired from outside the firm. But people aren't always rational.
You hit the nail on the head . Every word true .
I was a mechanic for Atlanta's largest airline. A line mechanic with a little overtime can easily make more money than his first manager, a you get to leave your work problems at the door. And managers work longer hours.
I loved Peter saying: JUST PAY THEM MORE MONEY!
Easy solution... But corporations always being corporations, always looking for profits first for their shareholders
Unfortinately there is a time delay between the shareholders earning profit and wondering why the company doesnt make products any longer they can profit from
It is likely no that easy per se - pay more is step one. Then likely the amount of maintenance needed on new planes needs to be reduced and become more automated.
In the end, real growth in welfare can only occur with real productivity increases.
But artificially low payment like in this case, can also lead to lack of innovation .. because instead of building more robust and efficient systems you can simply give "peanuts to the grease monkey" to fix and maintain afterwars. Like comparing galley slaves with a diesel engine in a ship.
MANAGEMENT and INVESTORS hate that idea ... lol
That's why we are in the dark time without hope.
Don't forget the obscene payouts for top execs and CEO's in these companies. The people who actually do the work seem to to be the least valued in these corporations.
@@gaiaiulia That is definitely a blight of our time - and not only because of the money spent. It is also because these are often managers - and we've seen this with the Boeing series- who are retained to optimize worker exploitation instead of driving real efficiency gains through better engineering. That is , why in the western world has low productivity growth now.
I’m an aircraft mechanic. This is the worst job I’ve ever had. It is brutal. My body and mind has suffered, the bad hours, exposure to all sorts of stuff, including noise, chemicals , etc. also dealing with toxic leadership , poor supervision, bad training. All of these things make it horrible. Pay is honestly not bad , but even if my pay was doubled I wouldn’t stay.
Does your trade have apprentices that learn on the job or do mechanics just learn in schools that have old engines and aircraft?
@@dannydaw59 yes but training is rushed and not effective.
A close friend works as a 'pointless paper-pusher' (his own description) for our local authority.
A neighbour's son works in some kind of engineering job (not sure what) for an (in)famous budget airline.
Guess who earns more?
Guess why I'd never consent to fly with that airline?
I've worked as a aircraft mechanic for 37 years. Retire in a year or two. I enjoy working on airplanes. I like the people I work with, management is reasonable. They bumped up pay the last 2 years a lot. There is turn over of people. Having so many new workers is stressful for everyone. Mechanics make mistakes in their first two years and cost the company money in reworks. Everything I read about Boeing leads me to think that is not a place anyone should work.
@@not_listening2792 if I worked under better supervision , then it would be a fun job. I love working on airplanes. The people? No.
As a Greek I have lived abroad most of my life. Unfortunately the brain drain is real, it’s hard to retain talent with such salaries and life in Greece isn’t that cheap anymore.
Yeah.. I’ve heard that
Greece is great at cheaping out and losing money by doing so. They also lost the 4. ETCS contractor in a row. At this point they spent more money on peny pinching than the whole thing would have cost... It's a joke. Things have a proper price you pay it or you pay it twice.
With a 900€/month monthly salary --before taxes and dues mind you- a mechanic will never be able to buy a house or a new car - even in Greece. Why should anybody want that job?
I have come across more than a few Greeks working abroad in the IT industry.
Sharp guys, and most of them pleasant to work with.
Worked with a Greek guy for a while, nice guy, said the salaries there were unliveable, and his mother paid extra into her state pension her whole working life, on the promise of receiving extra money when she retired, only for the government to turn around and stop paying the extra payments to people who’d paid more.
As an AMT, just want to say thank you Peter. Having a voice like yours in support of us mechanics/engineers means a lot. I have a deep passion for aviation, and I love what I do. But it is so taxing and draining with these companies constantly wanting more and more productivity and output, but less and less pay and with bare minimum benefits. It's discouraging having such love for the industry, while feeling like we are constantly overlooked and borderline taken advantage of by the senior learship of these companies. You're encouragement and support gives me hope though and reassurance that I love what I'm doing and at least someone notices all the hard work and commitment we give. 🙏🙏
A friend told me: "don't tell my mother I'm a Boeing engineer, she thinks I'm a stripper. I don't want to break her heart."
😂
How original!!!
A tweet*
I saw this written in a Mesaba Saab cargo bay, except it was : Don't tell my mother. I work for Mesaba Airlines. She thinks I'm sweeping floors in a strip club.
😂
As an active B1 aircraft engineer I wrote my thesis for my MSc in London University exactly on this subject back in 2017. My predictions back then were a 35,000 shortage by 2030 now worse case scenario predictions are 48,000 by 2027 in Europe and same in Northern America this acceleration can be attributed to fairly recent world events and other factors which you correctly pointed out. As an active engineer working nights on the line in all weathers in Belgium looking after x4 767s completely on my own, away from my home and family and after been refused a payrise I am unfortunately one of them very demotivated Engineers you mention. I would like to thank you very much and I appreciate your acknowledgment of us engineers and most crews do. Most folk don’t understand how closely Engineers and Pilots work together, unsung heroes comes to mind.
What I do know is that an experienced worker is usually fast to diagnose a problem and knows not to think that is the entirety of the case.
That is shockingly low pay. These are valuable employees with specialised skills. I'm an engineer myself in the UK (currently working on computer software for an American multinational, and before that I was a military contractor), and for reference I earn more in a week than these engineers do in a month. I'd say if they want to hold onto their engineers, they need to pay them.
Edit: You said the same thing as me by the end of the video :) Obviously couldn't agree more.
Absolutely correct
Yes, not retaining staff is a sign of a low quality employer.
POV: Southern American, African, Southeast Asian, Korea, China and other brain drain countries unable to compete due to less money.
TH-camrs: those employers are just greedy.
*compares high overhead/operations cost job with sitting in front of computer*
Yes, greedy corporations is a thing that exists. Oversimplifying an issue is also a thing that exists.
Truth.
@jmax8692 I'm sorry, but I don't understand what point you are making.
900 Euros a month? Is that correct? I'd be surprised if they could hire anyone at that level of pay. No wonder they just wait to get the certification and leave. These are highly skilled people. Paying wages that low is an insult and they deserve to have no workers.
thats in greece though where life is cheaper, still not that cheap but cheaper.
900 Euros a month?? I couldn't cover rent alone with 10x that income after taxes in the US.
@@JimPekarek salary levels are abysmally low in Greece
Minimum wage in Greece is 667€ and average about 1280€ so no wonder skilled people don't want to work for 900€.
they can hire peoples... and train them... but they can't retain them once they're trained with such wages
what they should do is compare the wage/living cost in Belgium/Norway with the same in Greece and add the hiring/training cost and look if the the difference is that big... if hiring/training mechanics cost more than the pay increase to be competitive, just consider it a cost saving measure
As an A&P Mechanic for 48 years, now retired, all I can say is anybody considering going in to the Aircraft Industry would have to be out of their mind.
In a lot of places I've worked at, it was often joked that "Being nuts is a job requirement".
Completely agree my friend. I was a mechanic A&P for 4 years and moved out of the industry bc of low wages and hard long working hours. Moved to a different industry and never been happier. Im just 28.
As a current A&P, I can say we are just like a step child of the company. We don’t get what we want and we don’t even know how to negotiate. Other departments give us a hard time just because they aren’t happy with their situation. A lot of the time the flight crew and passengers don’t seem to like us being onboard despite the fact they were the one that called us in the first place
The same applies for Brazil. I have all qualifications A&P, quality inspector but the pay was simply too low. Resign from the industry to open a car painting shop. I made about 5 times more at least and if I dont work well somebody`s car just dont get shinny in aviation if you dont work well you will be responsible for an air disaster.
Love aviation but it simply doesnt worth the risk
45 years in aircraft maintenance. USAF then on to US major airline. I had a true love of aviation. When I see young people with my love of aviation I tell them to stay in school with a focus in medical, management, engineering (not aeronautical). Once established in your chosen career. Go buy an airplane and enjoy your love of aviation
As someone who got an engineering degree and wound up in a tech job ... It's pay, and a toxic work environment.
Executives have maximized shareholder value in the short term, and that's all that really matters to anyone. People are very price sensitive. Executives are very greedy. Boards are very sensitive to stock price. Engineers are not missed in the short term.
I have an uncle that works as mechanics in airline, and he said the shortage means long hours and while overtime pay is good but it's just too physically draining, and workers can't say no to overtime work so they are forced to work 12 hour days daily, and sometimes 6 days a week. Many of them quit because of the long hours and it's just not worth it.
Thank you very much for pointing this out. One thing is to have better and more complex technology and systems. The other is who is able to do the building and maintenance. Expecting more and more from technicians and engineers and at the same time paying them less and less for their services can only lead to a dead end and an increasing error and failure rate. Nobody can have any interest in that. Especially not when the safety of all of us depends on it.
It is certainly one explanation of why a door fell off a 737. Tired people make lots of mistakes. Tired disgruntled people even more.
And we all know what exhaustion leads to. Tell your uncle he's valued here.
What happens if they refuse overtime?
@@ChinnuWoW they probably get fired, or the union mandates it, if that's the case, if they want to stay in the union to be protected, then they are compelled to take the extra hours, the union probably corners people who are not unionized and compel them to join or get a job in another field
I graduated in aeronautical engineering, got laid-off during the pandemic and now work in IT where I earn over 2x more than I used to (:
Congratulations !
Moved from commercial pilot to IT in 1993. With hindsight best thing I ever did.
@@longbiowsix Could you explain why IT was better than being a pilot. I am an IT guy too but still interested in Mech Engg which is my original field.
@@prashanthb6521 Lots of people want to be a commercial pilot - until they see what the requirement pilot stuff is.
@@prashanthb6521 IT always pays more
Myself being an aircraft mechanic totally agree with you on this topic. Long hours low pay and having the risk of losing it all if you somehow manage to get something wrong by mistake haunts me to death. Airline Management will market them selves as safety being their prime concern but they end up pressuring you to hurry up and take shortcuts in key safety maintenance practices as it will cost them time and money to keep the aircraft on ground.
Don't mind long hours, it is the pay that sucks...A fellow licensed A & P
Thank you for looking out for the guys behind the scenes, and you’re completely spot on in my experience as an A&P Mechanic. We hear all the time to not sacrifice safety, and then told to take shortcuts. My advice is and will always be to do what’s right because that’s my certification not the company’s, and the company isn’t going to help you if God forbid an incident/accident occurs. Putting out an airworthy product is way more important than some CEO’s end of year bonus!
Love the videos, your channels are awesome!
As an AMT with 38 years of commercial aircraft experience at 2 of the largest airlines in the USA, I can honestly say this information is spot on. You will start out working midnights almost regardless of the company, also work every holiday, every weekend, every birthday celebration coupled with no prime-time vacation (summers or holidays) for the first few years, at best. At worst, this could be your life for decades! Once the younger guys, get a peek behind the curtain, it ADIOS! Add to all that the inherent hazards of working around things that can, and frankly do kill people, is it any wonder young people don't seek out this industry. Management is driven by getting the aircraft up, safety often takes a back seat to this goal, regardless of the lip service they give the FAA or anyone else. All this, in many cases, to earn less than the guy maintaining your Toyota. There are a few exceptional places you may earn more, but the working conditions are universal. There was a time when the pilots made approximately double what a top tier AMT made, now pilots make 4 to 7 times what AMT earn, they are certified on ONE aircraft type, on any given night you might be expected to service multiple aircraft types and if you are not efficient, there will likely be questions to answer. All this while actual classroom training is under constant attach, as unnecessary. Another thing no one considers is the ability to earn income away from your primary employment. If you are an automotive technician, an electrician, HVAC technician, you can earn with "side work" if you choose. This is virtually impossible as an AMT, there are very few opportunities outside your primary employer.
Don't blame the company for those policies, blame the union. The old-timers put you on the midnight shift....
Well that’s a simplistic view of reality
QANTAS used to have one of the best trained aircraft engineer workforces, right here in Australia. Their conditions of employment were excellent, the engineers devoted and loyal. QANTAS outsourced and discarded these people and this critical local resource.
What’s the average aircraft mechanic on in Brisbane/ Sydney/ Melbourne? All the ones I know are on big dollars.
@@ibsn87 Yeah the legacy engineers...not the new hires...Qantas offered me $35 per hour flat on night shift as a contractor...and I am fully licensed 30 years plus experience.
@@desobrien3827 I used to work as an AME at S.I.T. 20 years ago, saw the writing on the wall when we were told that QANTAS is looking at adopting 'best practice' by other airlines and Ansett going bust. Took the bronze handshake, got a lot more sleep and retrained as a civil engineer. Now on $56p/h wage building targets with no nightshift and less stress! Love aviation, but would never advise anyone to work for an Airline. And who wants to deal with CASA?
@@desobrien3827 sorry to hear your story-the foreigner(s) who strangely gained control of QANTAS disrespected the premium engineering workforce and also our brilliant, young 747-438ER airplanes. My sister was lucky-she was a flight attendant there (but also a qualified school teacher)-she took the QANTAS redundancy and ran. It’s not so easy for technical people like me.
@@Michael.ChapmanDo you mean that vixen Alan Joyce, or other foreigners who are coming in droves as we speak?
In a recent interview on CBS, the CEO of AerCap explained that Boeing fired a lot of their engineers during the covid pandemic while Airbus kept their personnel. He mentioned that you don't employ a barrista to replace an engineer, and that it takes four years to train people to work on assembling airplanes, and in his opinion that is the reason why Airbus have the edge now.
The other reason is that Airbus planes don't just decide to take a nosedive, killing everyone on board. Twice.
Boeing was notorious for generations now for mass layoffs of skilled workers. It's literally one reason I avoided the company, despite living within walking distance from a VERTOL plant.
Employers love reliable employees, too many employers forget that employees absolutely require reliable income.
My late father was an American Airlines FAA certified line mechanic in the 1950s through the 80s. He worked hard long hours, was seldom home and had a complete commitment to his work. This video is very relatable for me. Without the skill and knowledge of mechanics, planes would not continue to fly. Thank you for sharing this video.
What a great video talking about what the public have no idea is going on. Thank you for highlighting this important issue. I left the industry I loved here in Australia 18 months ago after 35 years. I started as an apprentice , worked hard and became a Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. For the most part it's been a great career and I'm certainly glad my Dad suggested it to me all those years ago. I've worked for small general aviation companies, medium sized airlines, large airlines, overseas companies and a charity during my aviation career. It's a career I am extremely proud of and 18 months later I still miss it sometimes. I don't miss the crap conditions like working outside in the rain, cold, heat, wind, asked or pressured to do or sign for dodgy shit, squeezed into a hole that some idiot designer thought would be big enough, treated like shit by management and companies etc etc etc. But I do miss fixing planes with some of the most talented and respected people I know. But unfortunately, in Australia at least, aviation isn't what it used to be and quite frankly, it is a race to the bottom regarding wages, conditions and standards. Since leaving aviation, my current employer pays me almost double the pay plus monthly and yearly bonuses as well as proper overtime rates to fix steam systems in factories, hospitals and other industries compared to what I was getting fixing planes. I have a company car that I have full use of with a fuel card and I am made to feel as part of the team and valued as an employee. I have had more company lunches in the last 18 months than all the shitty cold pizza I got in 35 years in aviation. So I get all that plus a few more things with NOWHERE near the responsibility I had certifying for the airworthiness of an aircraft. My stress levels have plummeted, my happiness has increased immeasurably and I'm nowhere near as grumpy as I used to be. My partner and kids are loving the new me and I reckon if I was to tell my better half I was going back to aviation she'd kill me. As I said I do miss working on planes but for me at this time and the foreseeable future, the risk versus reward of aviation just isn't worth it anymore. I just hope the inexperienced "engineers" they hire to replace those of us that left the industry don't f&%k up and cause a plane to come crashing through mine or anyone elses roof 🤞🤞🤞
I am a recently retired engineer. I worked in the UK, mostly on industrial machine control systems. Qualified to work on and design mechanical, electrical, electronic and software systems, I think I only moved jobs for the money on one occasion. While I had the respect of all my colleagues on similar grades, I found any respect from management grades almost absent. Undervalued at best, I usually moved job because I was tired of being treated as a disposable grunt.
I also find it sad that the local university from where I graduated has closed its school of engineering in favour of business and media studies. We still need engineers and some things cannot be "outsourced" to lower waged countries.
The bigger the company the worse it gets ,best thing in my career was moving from big blue chip company after apprenticeship , 6 years of being a number to places that paid better and bosses that would make you a cuppa,take you for a pint ,small companies where you was appreciated
A&P no longer in the industry here. Not only do A&P mechanics make less than a car mechanic, we literally risk going to jail if we make a mistake.
Not a good environment.
I worked closely, daily, hourly, by the minute, with a number of A&Ps over 45 years. As the pilot flying the helicopters they worked on I learned a huge amount of useful tech knowledge from them. Though they seldom left the ground they had just as much at risk for a mistake as I did. Nothing flies, or should fly, without the A&Ps say so. I have, and you should too, have immense respect for their profession.
Wait, what? No "just culture" what so ever over there in the US?
In most of the "civilized" aviation industry "just culture" is where it's at. Persecution is only applied if the "mistake" was done intentionally, or if SERIOUS neglect is in the picture. Otherewise we tell about the mistake, things are fixed, and then we LEARN from what caused it, to prevent it from happening again.
What you describe sounds like a "fear culture", which leads to people not speaking up about, or even worse, hide their mistakes in fear of retribution, and that is NO FUCKING GOOD AT ALL!
Topping out at $100/hour at FedEx is making less than a car mechanic? Maybe you weren't a mechanic long enough/didn't look for the right opportunities.
Spot-on! As an A&P Tech, I left the trade decades ago when liability insurance became necessary. Low pay and high liability. No money to buy insurance.
There is some contractors for military that don’t require A&P as long as you have the experience such as prior military
I've been working as a B1.1 Engineer for 5 years, with 4 of those years spent as a mechanic. The treatment and pay are extremely poor; I've never felt so mentally and physically abased in any job before. We typically work six days on, with only one day off, often on 11-hour shifts, far from our families. Additionally, we frequently work with toxic materials that take a serious toll on our bodies.
B2 here with 30 years experience. I can relate to your experience. Just want to add, when company treat its employee as expendables (consumable), don't expect the reciprocation of loyalty & courtesy.
@@antoinehomme606 absolutely! when i was leaving my first company where i spent 3 years, when i went to my bay manager and handed him my resignation the reply was ( you? where are you going to go? you are nobody, nobody will take you to work you are nothing my friend, are you sure about this? ), are you sure about this? )
Do you mind if I ask where you work? I'm thinking about becoming a maintenance engineer in the UK
@@codygarland3246 Czech Republic
@@codygarland3246 Central Europe
It’s also worth noting that especially in EASA/CAA jurisdictions, an A/B1/B2 license is required to actually certify that a job has been completed. These licenses, especially a B Category license requires a minimum of 5 years experience to even apply for, including the several years it takes to complete an apprenticeship also needs to be taken into account. So even if a huge of influx of new staff comes in over the next few years, it’ll take many more years before these staff are in a position where they can actually certify work that has been carried out and supervise junior mechanics!
. *I looked up the salary of an aviation mechanic and learned why there is a shortage.*
Hiring should be based on qualifications and experience alone, that's what we should all be fighting for. No politics, no stereotypes, no discrmination, no biases, no BS. Anything that's not qualifications and experience should be out of the conversation while hiring.
Engineers are willing to take a lot more pressure and be more loyal, if the pay is good and the company shows respect.
I think you are right
Boeing will just kill you, apparently
Respect goes a long way. Old job jumped pay (only because they were going to lose everyone) but then turned around and said “you’re going to have to earn it”
As if we weren’t working too hard already.
As one of the sub 30 year old A&Ps, thank you for speaking on this subject! I have all sorts of feelings about this and why Aircraft technicians feel undervalued, but to put it into perspective for people who aren't involved with the politics- this issue is making the industry more dangerous at an alarming rate. When I started in the industry 5ish years ago, it was rare to see an incompetent mechanic because companies were fairly proactive about firing them since they were a liability. Now companies are so desperate for labor that they are hiring these incompetent mechanics again. A lot of them just don't take the job seriously enough considering we're on the front line of passenger safety, and some just straight up aren't fit to be technicians, but companies won't/can't fire them. The regional airlines are especially notorious in this regard. I worked with a guy who I would describe as dangerous because of his incompetence. When I was hired at that station, we had 25 technicians and someone would always double check his work and found an issue with it 9 times out of 10, and 50% of those were safety critical items. When I left, we were down to 7 mechanics, and while we did our best, sometimes there just wasn't enough man power to double check. We reported him to everyone we could think of and he received multiple writeups, but the company still wouldn't fire him. This is slowly making it's way into the big three airlines too. There's currently a mechanic working for one of them who's had multiple infractions, including one that did over a million dollars in damage to an aircraft, and he's working on flights as we speak. You may not think it effects you, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see an increase in maintenance related incidents in the coming years. It's tough to keep good technicians when we're paid less than elevator mechanics, and have a hell of a lot more to lose.
On a side note, if you want to see where a lot of the shortage started, the Northwest airlines strike in 2005 is a fascinating look into mechanic union politics (IAMAW, Teamsters and AMFA unions all did writeups about it, though I'm inclined to believe AMFAs version) and could make an interesting video... Those unions seem to be busier fighting each other than fighting for their workers benefits.
@@andrewvz1914 Sounds like the U.S. Congress
Haha it's pretty much exactly like that!
Yep, at my current company when I joined a senior tech needed 10 years experience. It's now 4 years for a senior tech. It's insane. These kids are getting hired in at the top level and they have never used or seen 70% of what we do. They don't even know what they don't know and the damage to the aircraft is insane.
A large employer near me has a program with a local community college that has a huge hire rate for the graduating students. And a-lot of that college’s Engineering majors actually switch to the more vocational program that is tailored to the needs of that employer, either due to hard courses, or due to the internships given to students at the college.
With the well paying jobs, great company culture, low student debt, transformative internships, and the high hire rate you can see why.
I hope that the aerospace unions can see this as a way to convince others to join the industry rather than having to “commit” to a working apprenticeship.
[It also allows students to “go to college” and then say “whops, I make good money now!” to their parents, when they don’t get the full 4 year degree]
That sounds great!
Thank you very much for explaining that. It also has something to do with appreciation and recognition. We don't just need great academics, we also need other work and services to be done well. Unfortunately, it's the same everywhere: fewer and fewer people are expected to be able to do more and more work. At the same time, other expectations are often rising, because one thing is to have better and better technology and another is who can maintain and repair it, for example. Where more and more is demanded for less and less in return, this can only lead to errors and waiting times increasing and employees looking for other opportunities where they can find better working conditions and better pay. The consequences of these problems affect us all. No matter what level of education we have. How nice it would be to live in a world where necessity does not lead to bad employment contracts, but where everyone can do their work in peace and security.
THANK YOU!!!! As a licensed AME, I truly love my career and don’t see myself choosing anything else. However, constantly being told by employers that we’re expendable, replaceable, and don’t have as much value as flight crew is extremely demoralizing. I completely understand why there is struggle to retain or hire new engineers. Here in Canada, some air carriers are offering pretty high signing bonuses, yet still struggle to attract talent. Some times it’s not all about the money, but more so about the importance of recognition.
Here's my two pennyworth. When I were a lad starting out in with a Big Airline we checked in and out with a roster clerk behind a desk. Chatting to an older guy it transpired he was a qualified AME. I asked why he'd left the ramp for a boring desk job. " Comfortable lifestyle, regular hours, pay as good (maybe better"). A few years later a friend did exactly the same. I think it's a Western (certainly British) cultural thing. Skilled manual labour is just not valued. Who would you prefer your daughter to go out with; a plumber or a lawyer? And when the water starts pouring through the ceiling...?
Great series of videos !
I worked for a German airline company repair shop.
In our area, American Airlines was hiring for mechanics with a very nice sign-on bonus.
Our company came out and said just because other airlines companies are paying more, we are not. You can leave to another company and the company will write a good recommendation.
This is a really bad way to treat your employees.
This all reminds me Machiavellian "Prince", that does not account for skilled workers and their mobility at all. The bean counters and politicians just don't understand how valuable skilled workers are, and not anyone can be trained to do that job.
@@solarissv777 There are 'bean counters' who realize the problem, but most are willing blind to the problems.
I love how you display a high level of emotional intelligence in your videos, you’re not too quick to jump into conclusion, speculate and point fingers, you apply high level of diplomacy in sensitive issues which is really worth emulating. Been learning a lot on your 2 TH-cam channels
Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the public. Increased salary for engineers is long overdue but the job has little glamour appeal, the hours and conditions are not what youngsters are looking for
Worked as a licenced engineer for some 40 years and left in 2020 as part of a mass redundancy program. In my group some 120,+ left with over 40 years experience. The industry was decimated of thousands of years experience virtually over night. My company stopped training apprentice in the early '80s and we spent over 25 years questioning management as to where the new blood would come from. Our questions fell on deaf ears.
The industry is reaping what it sowed.
Thanks for your rant in addition to the usual detailed information.
The heart of all these "shortages" are the attitude of Corporations governed by former CFO types who view workers as an EXPENSE to be minimized rather than a resource that is the heart of the value of any company.
One problem not mentioned here is the lack of hands on experience youngsters get with machinery nowadays. I'm English, in my 50's and spent 32 years in Aerospace Engineering. 23 years of these were in manufacturing. When I started most of us had experience with helping older family members or friends fix their cars, motorbikes, lawn mowers etc. A fair portion built model aircraft, some of which flew. We were mechanically savvy. This was whether you were on the shop floor or going in as a graduate. You simply don't see this sort of thing going on any more.
When I was at school in the 70s/80s we were also taught Metalwork and Woodwork at school. This is something that is now rare. A friend was looking around a new school his children were due to start at. Seeing a fully equiped workshop (lathe, milling machine, forge etc) he made a comment about how nice it was to see. The reply he got back was that the school was selling off the machine tools as no one does that anymore in this country.
A few years back I was giving a talk to some engineering apprentices when it became apparent they had minimal experience of making or maintaining/fixing anything. They had been hired simply based on academic credentials.
An additional problem that we have in the UK is that engineering is looked down upon as being a lesser profession to pursue. This also puts the youngsters off as they don't think it would impress their peers.
We do get youngsters through who are clever and mechanically competent, but there are simply not enough of them.
I am seeing the same, you have 5 years on me and I meet grads who have no mechanical skills whatsoever, the apprentices are a bit better, local college has started to teach machining again but it is clear that the college tutor doesn’t know machining either
I knew there was something going on when my 11 year-old son was considered a hero by his mates in our (French) village just because he could change a bicycle inner tube.
When I was 11, it was normal to be overhauling your 1172 Ford engine for a valve grind when you weren’t driving it around the fields, at a school that had everyone doing either woodwork or metalwork O levels, and bugger the dangers of letting 13 year olds loose on a Myford.
These things matter, because you don’t get a mechanical grasp of things by moving a computer mouse.
If you don’t build things from Meccano with your hands as a child, or tinker with your Ford, you miss out on whole swathes of engineering intuition.
None of the kids whose parents send them to see me, when they say they want to be a engineer, can even change an inner tube.
It’ll be good to see the pay go up for the horny-handed sons of toil.
Once more, Mentour nails it precisely. People who damaged and even destroyed the company they work for (like Harry Stonecypher) are paid millions while those who build, maintain and fly the planes must fight for a living.
Harry had lots of help
@@bartsolari5035 You mean that, even with lots of help, he triggered a catastrophe like the bankruptcy of MDD while they were having one of the best planes on the market (the MD-11)????? What would he have done if he had no help???
Wouldn't he massacre projects like the 737 MAX, the 777X and the 787?
Absolutely spot on with the pay comment. When boeing seems to jump through hoops to give its soon to be ex ceo a ~35% raise but neglects to ensure a decent living wage for its mechanics , there's a huge problem right there
Yep
My company was facing a skilled kabor shortage. We partnered with our local community college to create a certification program. Pay is good and once students started graduating, labor shortages have declined substantially. Companies need to take ownership for their labor pipeline.
Excellent strategy.
I am always impressed by your excellent diplomacy, Petter. No matter which topic you choose to speak on, you are always able to get across both your truth, and opinion, clearly. You cannot be faulted for the courage to approach difficulties, as you are truly skilled in not skirting around issues, and also never getting bogged down by them. You say what you say, and then leave it to others to think on. I wish far more creators could be as smooth. It is refreshing to see such honesty and integrity in these times, when you could easily just create 'dramas' for clicks.
As a CIP (I spend millions on tickets each year) with a large alliance, it was just yesterday that I went to of a meeting with execs with one of the largest airline companies in Europe, telling them the same thing after hearing for the past 5 years how difficult it is to hire & keep good and hardworking people. It's not just mechanics, it affects pretty much every non-senior management type of job in the aviation industry.
Fares are going up everywhere, the demand curve is as steep as never, coffers of full, so why is the industry not ready to pay competitive and fair wages? One issue I suspect is the fear of another melt-down in the industry, another is pure greed (the golden 60s-90s have created an inappropriate DNA in for most execs), and finally, the service fragmentation and artificial extensions of the value chains through contracting and subcontracting more and more aspects of the core business.
And let's not forget: airline economics is highly complex and irrational at its best. Now, if that hinders us from paying decent wages, we have to radically change our approach in the industry.
Thank you very much for this video. The aircraft mechanic/maintenance technician is often forgotten and almost never promoted in a positive or heroic light.
A main landing gear tire, for example, if it's found to be bad on a transit or through flight, takes about 2 hours to change (getting the equipment, maintenance references, actually doing the job, then completing and submitting final paperwork). In this scenario, the passengers will be mad and upset because maintenance is taking too long because their flight is delayed.
However, if the captain decides to take that same aircraft as is (not changing that main tire) to avoid a delay, and something happens on takeoff or landing, and the pilots "save the plane" they are considered heroes in the public's eye, whereas the mechanics will be looked at poorly because that potential issue wasn't taken care of in the first place.
Also, when was the last time, or how often do you see a commercial or advertisement for being/becoming an aircraft mechanic/maintenance technician?
Most of the time, you see pilot commercials and advertisements.
I'm a UK EASA and UK CAA licensed aircaft engineer. I work in Scandanavia and we can't find enough engineers. For years there has been under-investment in training engineers, Europe's air forces haven't been releasing thousands of engineers like they did decades ago.
Now I'm in my late fifties and this is the demographic of aircraft engineers; in the next five to ten years most of us will retire. It takes five years to go from nothing to holding a UK/EASA licence, that's before gaining the experience, knowledge, confidence and type training before issuing your first certificate of release to service. I really don't know how commercial aviation can continue like it does today...
Simply put, they can't.
In reality they can and will continue to. The reason is fundamentally division, corruption and backstabbing between engineers. And the companies use this very well to their advantage. Engineers never stick together, they undercut each other. It is very easy to enter with fraudulent qualifications and experience. If engineers had the same balls, integrity and professionalism as pilots they would have the same or higher salaries as pilots because that is what a real engineer is worth. Unfortunately there are very few of those.
@@user-qr4sj8xm3f my airline is going through contract negotiations right now, the under cutting and not sticking together has been rife. Normally the company would be able to make the most of this situation, but this time round they haven't been able to take advantage as they actually need to pay us more as they cannot attract staff.
It's an airline that used to pride itself on being the place everyone wanted to be but now they barely keep hold of the staff they already have. The industry is definitely in for a huge shake up as to keep aircraft serviceable you need to have some people that know what they are doing, and to attract and retain them you need to pay good money.
About 15-20 years ago there was a sense of career growth in our profession. Then came churning out AME licenses, with individuals just going over a few hundred multi choice questions in a few months and then acquire basic licenses. The greedy airlines hired these novice engineers with no experience or skill because legally they could sign off an aircraft. Of course HR are the pimps who created this. The senior and experienced engineers were the real people who mentored and supported the release of the aircrafts. As Peter mentioned the number of stupid if not serious repeat mistakes that happen in line is because of such scenarios. For example look at the type course procedure since COVID. It’s the 147 training schools (private) and the airlines who are contracting them laughing all the way to the bank. What used to be real classrooms is now 2 months of excruciating online classroom with instructors just whizzing through slides. 147’s make big time $ with some old retired instructors and airlines save in hotel, airline tickets and per-diem costs. It’s pathetic.
I can’t imagine how a new apprentice can even imbibe anything from a type course online.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. When you look at the input a professional engineer vs an inexperienced engineer puts in a turnaround of an aircraft you will be aghast. In the end it’s all about management and HR making their shots whereas the engineers and mechanics keep running in circles. But surely it’s going to come to a breaking point soon. At that point the bleeding is going to be profuse.
There's a really simple way of retaining those mechanics: Pay them more
In my last job (a university space lab in southern England that's produced hundred of instruments onboard orbital and interplanetary missions) we were picking up Ex-Rolls-Royce staff mainly because we paid 25% more than RR does - and that "25% more" was only slightly higher than what's paid to UNQUALIFIED office workers (about £28k/year from the university, requiring government topups (welfare) - meaning that RR and the university were essentially obtaining undeclared governmental subsidies. I suspect the only reason GE/P&W/Safran don't file WTO dumping complaints is because their own workers are in a similar situation)
More than one of those engineers decided that whilst they were passionate about aviation/space, the fact that 20 years into their careers they could get better pay working in a supermarket stacking shelves or operating checkouts - without incurring the expenses of maintaining qualifications or tools - mean tthat they would be stupid to continue letting passions dictate pragmatisim
I am a A/C engineer in Austria and in average we get a salary between 50.000,- - 80.000€ a year, depend on experience age of the worker. I am really shocked about the 900€!? Till you have a B License (B1/B2) you need at least 3-5 years, its a long and hard education. No wonder they say goodby to companys like that. About the conditions, like you said, they are very demanding. 12h shifts, 70% night shifts, tight workspace in aircrafts, noise....
I watch your channel sinze a time and I learnd much things through this and the mentoure Pilot channel, you do a great work. Thank you for that.
Greetings a B2(Avionics)-Engineer.
I even have former co workers that had in mind to get the engineer B1 license and quit that idea cause being a contractor mechanic makes same amount with fewer responsibilities and not as much training.
darf ich fragen wo du arbeitest? bei der aua in wien? was hast du für eine Ausbildung gemacht und würdest du das wieder machen?
@@karlelias Ja , ich arbeite bei der AUA und habe die Fachschule für Flugtechnik in Langenlebarn absolviert und ich würde es wieder machen, ich kann mir nicht vorstellen was anders zu machen.
@@cle9323 alles. klar sehr spannend. danke!
@@karlelias Der große Vorteil ist auch die Jobsicherheit, auf Grund des Mangels braucht man relativ selten Angst haben den Job zu verlieren. Selbst wenn, Flugzeugtechniker werden überall gesucht.
I've been working in aviation maintenance for four years and received my A&P certificate seven months ago. While I'm no expert, I've seen firsthand how challenging it can be. Working 8 to 16-hour days to keep aircraft airworthy requires a lot of energy and a focused mindset to avoid mistakes that could potentially endanger lives. And yet, many of my coworkers still live paycheck to paycheck (obviously this might vary depending on location and employer). Aviation maintenance is a highly skilled trade that not everyone can easily perform, yet it's rare to see companies truly acknowledge and appreciate this.
Not only are corporation making enemies of their workers, for some bizzare reason making enemies of your customers is now a strategy used by so many of these corporation. It's a bold strategy, let's see how it works out for them.
Neither has a choice. You work for them or don't work. You fly their planes or don't fly.
Marx mentioned this over 150 years ago in Das Kapitol. How capitalism is a zero sum game in the end as it's modelled on Feudalism. You have the owners and workers, and eventually when you exploit the workers to where they can't afford your products, it all collapses. Eventually they turn on you as your products aren't part of their spending cycle/capability. In the end, you MUST balance your profit with your pay to keep stable long-term.
All I can say is you're a true officer, the kind that understands that the bars on their shoulders are a whole lot lighter with a team to support them.
Anybody who has been in any sort of a management job can tell you that you can only ever be as good as the people supporting you.
I loved your sense of humor with your comment "rant over!" I really appreciate your videos as they are instructive and entertaining at the same time. You do a superlative job in my opinion.
I love a Mentour Rant ... I honestly agree with other commenters - it's not a shortage of workers, it's a shortage of workers willing to work for poor pay & conditions!
I would love to train as an aviation mechanic, but at 50 & living miles from the nearest airbase I know it's not an option for me, but I follow all your channels & love your content Petter, so thank you so much for what you do ❤✈
There are only two groups of people that understand the value of maintenance engineers. Flight crews and ground crews. When airline board members and their accounts departments cotton on, the problem will be solved.
For every pilot you see there are dozens of people that you don’t see that are just as vital in keeping your safety when you travel.
To put the 900€ per months for a qualified mechanic salary in perspective, the minimum wage (not even the wage of a qualified mechanic) in france is 1200€.
Now it makes a whole lot of sence to change jobs with a salary like this
Remark: In the IT-Security Industry it is also bad. I was asked by several CIOs on how we solve that. My answer was: you can't hire your engineers, you must build them. If you try to hire your way out of this, you'll end up in a rat race. You have to create them yourself and use the time to bind them through company culture.
True. In IT security it's almost laughable how most people are random security testers than capable and paranoid security guys because we started prioritising nonsensical things like CEH certificates than looking for tech guys with the mental muscle to be security guys. The entire reason for this damage comes from ethical hacking community that comodatized and standardized a cultural and open system into generating useless and dumb testers. You need good hackers. Not the factory made "certified ethical hackers"
in the IT industry there is no gorverment controlled mandatory requirment of years before you can actual take on a certain roll...For aviation engineers, there is....
In other words, brainwash them.
Is this a special subscriber or member? Cus he commented just when he first uploaded it
I'm 48, in the UK, and all of my experience is in office administration, compliance and auditing, and retail.
I am very good at learning new skills especially if they are heavily procedure driven. I'm also looking for a total career change.
Unfortunately these newer engineering and tech industries are an alien concept to me... busy doing other things.
I am also very security minded as a person, risk aware and a totally clean record.
After that lengthy introduction, a couple of questions.
how would I find out if I have the capacity to learn the skills required to work in the IT and InfoSec industry?...
Coding may as well be ancient sanskrit as far as I'm concerned. Could I even understand coding languages?
Where can I find out more about the industry in general?
Thanks In advance
Thanks for addressing this issue. Its not just the pay its the whole picture. I work in the EU as an B1 737 engineer for over 20 years and we are very over stressed.
The pay in general is the same as someone else working in an maintenance environment. and because becoming an B1 engineer takes about seven years i find myself usually looking over 10 mechanics at the same time. And if they make one mistake i am the one to blame. This is pretty stressful but you get used to it.
And als becouse there is such a shortage of B1 engineers you can never have a day off. We used to have an engineer who could not get time off for his honeymoon. And if you work in the weekends you can forget time off. Thats also a nice thing to talk about is shifts. We work mostly night shifts and that worns out the body pretty easy.
And if you take the total picture it becomes clear. Imagine you have a birth day party scheduled from a friend and you apply for leave. You are not going to get it becouse you are to important for the company. The pay isnt worth it and the stress of looking after junior mechanics is to much you start to think. Is this really worth it?
Especially if you see other industries working from Monday/Friday on dayshift witch the same pay?
Lots of engineers i know stopped in aviation becouse the want a normal life with time for friends and family which i also find important. And i have to ask myself this every day, is this really worth it? Would my life be easier if i quit Aviation?
Family, friends and time will always be more important than work. Always
As a former Production Engineer (in the UK), during the 1950's I had a Technical High school education, (my first technical drawing started at twelve years of age) went into a full 5 year apprenticeship at sixteen and getting engineering diplomas by twenty one (1967), enabling me to understand manufacturing processes of the day, the physics of materials, machines, and enabled me to run a factory. That was in a country with Manufacturing representing approx 40% of UK GDP, which now has
As aviation engineer I can confirm, we are not payed well in comparison to the responsibility for the safety of aircrafts and their users…
Thank you very much for someone with your experience to say that. This can get us all into trouble and nobody can want that.
It is one thing to have better and more sophisticated technology, the other is who can maintain it so that it can work. This requires more and more knowledge and precision in the work and the necessary monitoring. If employees are not well motivated and struggle with the costs of their daily lives, this can only lead to an increase in problems and waiting times. Nobody can want that. Especially in high-risk areas such as air traffic.
I am in a different but similarly underpaid industry, education. I can make the same money serving drinks in a bar or answering phones with zero stress and no insane unions or bosses to deal with.. Pay is horrendously low currently, for many blue collar type jobs.
"Just pay them more money!" YA THINK!!!??? I can stock shelves for $25/hour and get paid the same as I do working for Boeing 2nd shift. Bar-tending pays even better at most places and I wouldn't have to drive in terrible traffic 32 miles each way.
No drug tests either.
@@reubenmorris487why would a drug test worry you?
@@reubenmorris487 Hugs, not drugs!
Hi Petter. When workers are meaningless for the companies, ( as you’ve seen during the pandemics), the companies become meaningless for the workers. They just run to another meaningless company who pay them a few dollars more.
Have an absolutely fantastic day. 👍🏼
Yep, that’s very possible
Best way to describe this situation!
A very valuable and important reflection for the aviation industry, which requires urgent attention. On the other hand, we need more keen and considerate observers like you Mentor Pilot. You're simply the "Best"!!!!
I just graduated high school and I was seriously looking at being an aircraft mechanic but the education just costs too much compared to how much the job pays. The school near me wants 40 grand per year tuition, it's insane, not to mention room and board and cost of living. Instead it'll be cheaper to get a bachelor's in mechanical engineering at a state university and get a better paying job. They have to decrease the barrier of entry and increase pay if they want people to become mechanics.
Well that's the US for you. Most developed countries pay YOU to undertake post-school education and training, not the reverse.
@@kenoliver8913 I'm in Florida and since I got good grades and test scores in school the state is paying 75% of my tuition plus I'm getting the Pell Grant so it's not like the government gives you nothing here and now that I'm looking, there are public colleges that have programs for training to be an aviation technician so maybe I was being a bit too pessimistic before since I was comparing it to a private school that I keep hearing about. They actually came to my school and were talking to me about it but that's when they dropped the $40,000 bombshell lol. Honestly I don't know how private colleges even exist, they're so expensive.
I understand you. I am here in Canada and paid 40k CAD for an Avionics Tech program.
€900 per month...that is ridiculous...i am in Ireland and employed as a security officer and get paid €500 per WEEK
Yep..
@@MentourNow so in the space of 1 month i would be paid over twice what they are
@@MentourNow more pay and company incentives to make your mechanics loyal to your company and the job as a whole
So you ate overpaid
@@MentourNowI work on the factory floor of a company making cardboard products. I literally glue pieces of paper together, and I get paid more than twice that, even without irregularity compensation. 😮😢
Anytime you ever hear "there is an X shortage". Add the following to make it correct - "at the current wages we're offering".
The familiar whine by so many employers "nobody wants to work anymore" and they don't realize or admit "for the crappy salary / working conditions we have".
Some the reddit subs I follow have the simple statement "people don't quit because of bad jobs, they quit because of bad managers".
All it takes is some college grad MBA coming in, thinking "I know more than the people who work for me" and proceed to micromanage people and suddenly your key people are working elsewhere.
I'm engineer, not in Aerospace but its a problem across the board. I work in rail, and the problem is the same, a lot of engineers are at retirement age (everyone from technicians to design, maintenance and highly specialist engineers.) The work is highly responsible and safety critical but the pay and conditions have been worsening. I have seen colleagues change to software engineering, patent law, consultancy, or work for better paying companies like Amazon or Google, data centres are another one where we are losing staff. The work is just as hard but the rewards are on average better. The business is waking to the fact that they need engineers and there is infighting amongst senior leadership trying to spread the increasingly limited talent pool. But renumeration does not reflect these realities and they keep wondering why people are leaving. You often find the same staff return as contractors or as consultants meaning the business now pays more to the consultancy to get the same member of staff they had inhouse.
I can't pat you on the back enough for pointing out this issue. I am ex uk military, crossing the decide is quite, time consuming and costly if you want your civil licences, plus I think you need to look further back, schooling has in the UK at least dumbed down vocational skills removing the practical hand skills subjects, so over all interest is waining,when I left the RAF asa technician I spent at least 8/10 years before gaining enough academic qualifications. I.e. a degree,, and project management qualifications to step away from the hands onto position myself for the design and test side of aerospace engineering. And it worked too I got to employ all the skills I learnt in the RAF, alongside my academics in aerospace engineering.
Kindest regards MickT.
0:32 Tanagra is also where Darmok and Jalad fought a monster.
Ahh, I didn’t know that
Good catch Number One.
Shakka, when the walls fell.
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagara
The Beast at Tanagra
Darmok and Jalad on the ocean
You so beat me to it
Oh man, I could write a book on this topic. One thing that's prevalent in the US is by and large the maintenance people working the grueling hours are often 2-3 layers deep in a contracted labor agreement, which I can say from experience stays on the front of your mind. I think the maintenance teams you're focusing on are just part of the wave of the same thing happening all the way back to the bauxite mines that airframes are born from. I've shifted from flight line maintenance early in my career to third party testing, to manufacturing and at this point I stay away from suppliers.
this applies to nearly every other trade in the western world, as well. management is creating unattractive workplaces for skilled trades, and trying to whittle down wages, and so there is no draw for people who would otherwise thrive in those trades.
Correct. I think this will soon become a huge problem in the west
@@MentourNow it is already becoming a problem. ambulance services in my area are coming up short of paramedics to staff ambulances. construction trades are chronically shorthanded. even our fast food industry is struggling to maintain staffing. and in all those fields, workers are expected to do more for less pay.
It’s global. All by design of corrupt corporate politicians
A recent study in Sweden showed an increased interest for young women to become truck drivers instead of nurses, maybe because that was cooler and better paid.
Also I remember a study a few years back that showed that the lifelong income of someone going directly from high school to a job was higher that someone who went on to a technical college or institute, meaning a higher education didn't always pay off.
Finally it has been, at least in the past a good cooperation between the unemployment agencies, the unions and the business to train people for jobs that are in high demand. In mid 70's and late 90's I got computer training for free so I could start working in the IT-business and it was mostly tailormade for the requirement from the corporations that in many cases were responsable for the training programs.
This forecast scares me. I've been working in this industry since 2006. I did a dual apprenticeship for 3 1/2 years and after a few years of investing my own money and doing lots of training, I became B1. Then, 2 years ago, I also trained as an A&P mechanic. I also paid for that myself.
Now, with my experience and qualifications, I can say that my salary is sufficient and good.
If you start with nothing, the pay is poor. And there's the problem, if you want to stay in this industry, you have to be sure that it takes time, that the conditions are not the best (night shifts, working weekends and holidays, exposure to harmful chemicals, noise, etc.), that you might be far away from your family, far away from home - because these jobs are not available in every area.
What job would you choose as a young person with this background and compared to other jobs?
I think the answer will be the same for almost everyone.
But at the end of the day, I like being an aircraft mechanic, there are a lot of positive things about it. It's up to you what you want.
In my anecdotal experience, the big old multinational engineering firms *only* offer competitive salaries to people with decades of experience. Unsurprisingly, younger engineers/developers are drawn to different industries. You get what you pay for, which also applies to workers. The brightest engineers are offered twice the salary in big tech straight out of university or after working for these old multinationals for a few years and jump ship as soon as they can.
900€ is laughably low when i look at my current salary as an apprentice which is almost 200€ more than their salary. I work for a German regional railroad as a mechatronics engineer by the way.
Good, and you should be paid more
@@MentourNow oh and i forgot to add that i get union benefits and yearly pay raises, also because of the union since that negotiates work contract Tarifs with the company.
@@MentourNow 😂😂 you shouldn't be greedy too
In Switzerland, a 16-year-old high school apprentice earns around CHF 850 as an aircraft maintenance technician
@@alexandrupalade4959 We actually got 50€ less i our first year but because of the union that went up significantly in the second year
€900/m?! There’s been so much of this “we need more people getting into STEM fields” but there’s nothing out there. I know SO MANY science and engineering graduates who can’t find jobs that get them paying back their student loans. They’re finding it hard to find industry jobs that’ll give them enough experience too.
Minimum wage for a 40h week in Germany is 2000+€/month. The average income is double that. And Greek certifications are accepted in Germany (as well as Belgium and Norway, with the later having an even higher pay). So it makes sense.
Just one clarification: most European countries have free university education, so student loans are not a big thing here.
I was at an Engineering graduation recently, and every single graduate that I talked to was already employed in an engineering job. Science jobs are harder to get than engineering jobs.
Depends on what kind of engineering, yes? I know someone with a degree in electrical engineering/computer science who’s running out of space to stack his money.
Lots of unpaid internships, though. lol. The hubris of these companies to think that you should be a literal peasant and grovel at their feet to get hired is insane. So they go into IT or other fields that pay more.
@@spacecadet35 Which part of the world are you at and in which engineering discipline ? For exemple, Canada has a high underemployment rate for engineering graduates.
Spot on… The day I left Lockheed Martin as a Sr. Systems Engineer and took my skills into another field, my paycheck DOUBLED… Five years later I was making TRIPLE what my former colleagues were making.
And equally important if not more so, is the difference in the pace of evolution outside the major airframe manufactures. The later moves glacially in comparison any other engineering field - which presents a problem for employees. When working for an airframe manufacturer you are constantly falling behind technology in comparison to your peers - at the same time being employed in an industry with wild swings in business conditions… it’s self-sabotage to your career, and it never leaves the back of your mind - because you know if there is a hiccup, you don’t have the skills to compete in the open market. In short, you are trapped and you know it…. And that NEVER leaves your mind….
The best career move I ever made was getting out of aerospace when i did, and I’ve never looked back….
thank you very much for the acknowledgment to AMT’s, it is much appreciated. the general public mostly have no idea the MX required and what it takes to allow them to travel
I agree . Back in 1966 United came to our high school and recruited graduates to enroll into a 2 year program to become pilots for united . The same junior college also had a parallel program for A & P mechanics . This is what is still needed and an obvious solution to today's shortfalls . Short sighted CEO,s can only be controlled by UNIONS ! Your employees are your partners not your slaves to be used and abused . Equality and Respect go hand in hand with success !
I know Greece is a relatively low-paying country, at least by European standards, but €900 a month for skilled engineers? That's less than half the minimum wage here in the UK, in other words what you'd get for a full-time job working at a supermarket checkout.
It's a joke even for Greece - it's actually not hard to find qualified work for 2000 Euro in Greece entry level Callcenter jobs make you more than 900 Euro.
It's less than I get in a month for my State pension here in the Republic of Ireland. Mechanics should be paid way more. They're the people who keep the aircraft airworthy, after all.
In the poorest countries people make 10 to 100 times less. But for Greece €900 is certainly too little for this type of job.
If you learn to drive an hgv here in the uk, if you leave before a set time after qualifying, then you have to pay for all your training full price.
900€ per month is crazy low. I can absolutely understand why these people leave. I am in my first year of training to become an aircraft electrician and I get almost 300€ more
Hello Mentour! Long time watcher, first time commenter here. This video hits home really hard since I literally quit EAB today to pursue a career close to my home town since I don't originate from the Attica region. I'm not a mechanic though. The company also offers easa rated training for aircraft mechanics and is easa part 147 certified. Their training sector is where I worked and is pretty much the same story as the mechanic story you mention. 900 Euros / month (net income) is a joke for any highly skilled / highly educated professional like 95% of the people working there. In Athens (at least an hour's drive away) or in Chalkida, rent prices for anything that doesn't resemble a rat's nest start at 450E. Thats' 50% of the EAB salary lol try to live on 450E/month, even in "lower cost" Greece as some other people here commented about, and I will eat my nose. Its such a sad sight to see highly skilled people qutting after a year with the acquired certifications in hand, but the company offers no incentive for anyone to keep working there (ie. housing assistance or pay raise), so what do they except people to do? keep slaving away?
There is another problem too, back in the day I remember many kids like me, had dream jobs like I want to be a pilot, or an engineer. Nowdays, kids like to be a TH-camr, a tiktoker or anything they can be a celebrity. I think the same problem will be in other fields as well like shipping and car industry.
I think no small part of that change is gen Z listening to their older brothers and uncles about how their careers have treated them, in all industries. Gen Z knows that nowadays, if you're not a CEO you had better be famous - everyone else is getting screwed
I was an mechanic apprentice for an MRO back in 2021/2022 that was co-operating with a training facility in Norway. We used to work 10 hour shifts in 4 day periods, with a pay of 5 euros per hour. Long story short, they decided it was a good idea to not make facemasks mandatory at the time which resulted in a lot of us testing positive for C19. I was out for a very long time and by the end of it, they kicked me out. Also has to be said my motivation level was very low due to the fact that I was far away from home, long days, poor mentoring, depression etc, so from that stand point it's understandable why they would do this. Anyways, fast forward a few weeks I get sent back to Norway and was later sent to another maintenance/training facility in Sweden and was supposed to be there for two weeks. Less than halfway through this 2 week period I get a phonecall from the boss at the norwegian training facility telling me that they were ending my apprenticeship early due to poor motivation, lack of skills etc. Even though the only thing we did in my time in Sweden was clean out a nearby hangar. The only thing we did as far as "maintenance" goes was take off and re-install a engine cover on a Cessna, and remove the sparkplugs off a helicopter. So I didn't understand and still don't understand how they thought that was enough of an evaluation to terminate my apprenticeship, but yeah. I've since tried to get back into the industry but without luck, they say once you fall out it's near impossible to get back in. With several of the companies/airlines I applied to, not even taking the time to send me an e-mail telling me why they wouldn't consider me, or that I simply was out of the running, nothing, dead silence. At the end of it all it really left a poor taste in my mouth on the maintenance side of aviation. Especially since I feel like I wasted 3-4 years of my life working hard towards something that ultimately would be worthless in the end. Obviously if I could go back and change things, I would, and it's not all the companies fault, I'm not perfect. But I truly think it could have been handled better. I'm now on a different carrier path that will hopefully end in something better. Anyways, don't know if anyone will read this. Just wanted to give my two cents on this whole situation.
The hubris of many companies is the problem. They think that their business is the only one that is important. That you need to be perfect and the best of the best to even be considered to set foot on their property. top-down, completely vertical management and think that you should be willing to work for free to be part of their business - but that they must pay you something, due to unions or laws. that is, "you should feel blessed to even have this job offer" (despite them being 3rd from last place, even - completely blind management).
As of this comment, I am a senior in electrical engineering. I have a desire to work in the aviation industry, specifically aircraft maintenance. I really appreciate the video, showing what I could be facing when I graduate next year.
electrical engineer? get into the mining industry, you will make €900 per day
@@mrman5517 Isn't mining more dangerous industry for engineer?
I'm a CAA and EASA Licenced Engineer, this issue goes way back to the early 2000s. After this date company commitment to training/help died, in the 90s part of our monthly talk was who was studying for their licence, who had their exam/oral and who had their new licence. We as Engineers highlighted this lack of training to the company but had the reply of,, why should we invest in people who might leave,, we don't need anyone. It was plain as day as to what the whole industry was heading for. The airline I worked for then started to started to loose Licenced Engineers in 2013 every year to today 2+ Engineers retire or move on. There is a total lack of understanding on how you get an experienced Aircraft Engineer 70% is hands on, 30% is your type rating knowledge. That's why it takes time to learn these skills it also filters out people who do not like this type of work. The best Aircraft Engineers have hand skills and use Aircraft knowledge to it's best to safely find, fix and turn a broken Aircraft into a serviceable one. The 20 plus year's is one big gap of experience to fill, really it's impossible. What's happening now is a watering down of skills required using one Engineer to sign off multiple work zones, where as before you would have an engineer on each work zone. You don't get an Engineer from just passing the Authorities exam, year's of Aircraft hands on knowledge will..
As a retired engineer I can assure you that management always tries to keep us on low pay scales, even though one error on our part will likely result in equipment failure leading to possible fatalities.
Best rant ever 😍
It irritates me when people are dancing around the real issue.
Pay them and they will come!
@@MentourNow 😉
As much as I love dancing, the dancing around pay rate is really aggravating!