You mean when he makes excuses for the garbage they also did back then. This is the guy that gets mad at people for dressing as a video game character yet booked a Mummy for a show once.
There's a statue to Danno O'Mahony in Ballydehob, West Cork, Ireland. I saw it this summer coincidentally, my mother lives in a nearby town. I think writing nearby or maybe on the side of the plinth credits him with creating the Irish Whip.
Ya, I live really close to Ballydehob, my dad even built the ring around the statue, it is so cool that a move used universally now in wrestling, to be created by somebody in a small village like that.
@@shanebowen97 That's great. I took notice of the ring and thought it was a nice touch. I saw online afterwards that it didn't have the ring when it was first put up.
As a wrestler, what kills the Irish Whip is when wrestlers run before there is the PULL from there opponent. That's IF there is a PULL as well. Like Jim says, The Vader whip. It's a pet peeve of mine. During training I always emphasize this basic with younger wrestlers, because it really does kill the suspension of disbelief when done incorrectly.
I can't imagine why anyone would start running before their back is pushed, much less before their arm is even pulled. I believe it happens, because now that you've mentioned it I realize I've seen that a dozen times on Monterrey's indies. I realize why the shoot offs looked so strange, that the guy wasn't really pushing or pulling, and I still don't get it. I don't care if you're a friend of the promoter who's just paying to get in his ring, have you ever been in...a fight?...a wrestling match?... a rugby game?...a crowded hallway? Anything?(just venting, not asking you)
I've had very similar thoughts about the Irish Whip too, but I've always just accepted it for the reason Jim said (it's very well established.) There is simply nothing that says "pro wrestling" more then an Irish Whip. And yeah, if done well and in the right way, it can definitely look far more plausible then it usually does these days. I think It'd be a little bit tricky though, because it really depends heavily on both wrestlers to get it looking just right and it's done several times in a single match.
@@slappygilmour1984 well that’s something you do in amateur wrestling to gain control over your opponent. I’d say doing the collar and elbow tie up standing so straight up is when it leaves the realm of realism.
I just watched a Lou Thesz/ Buddy Rogers match and they use the ropes once and Thesz actually pushed Rogers into the ropes, but Rogers didn’t bounce and run into the other ropes. It looked legitimate, not like the mess it became.
Wasn't it Gangrel that added like a jumping motion to his Irish whip, and sometimes he'd even end up falling to his hands with his own momentum? Pretty sure he was the one that did it that way, always thought it was cool twist on it.
He definitely did a little hop and I'll always remember it. Also remember in early 90s WCW guys would do the whip to the corner and fall down with the throw
I remember reading that there was a Whip in Irish Folk style wrestling, where you'd grip their wrist with one hand, and put the other on their elbow, and then just run the guy forwards. Torqueing the arm like that put them off balance, and if they tried to resist it directly it would hyperextend the elbow joint. It was apparently popular with the bouncers who knew it because you could run somebody out the front door of the pub without really hurting them.
My problem with the Irish whip, and rope running in general, is that EVERYONE seems to think they have to do it. Not everyone can do it well, or even needs to. Does everyone need to chokeslam too?
Actually, Irish Whip is an old wrestling style in which two competitors would lock arms and wrestle by whipping each other around, trying to score a throw. But, I can guarantee that if a 250 lb wrestler were to grab you by the arm and throw you toward the rope, you're either going, or you're falling out of the ring. The rebound is because if you were to try and stop after hitting the ropes, you would trip and fall. So you might as well go with it, or risk putting yourself in a compromised position. It is not a bullshit move, but has become a bullshit move because of how it is performed. But when people say that once you use an Irish whip, the whole match becomes ridiculous, they show that they clearly don't understand the history of pro wrestling and its origins. Edit: the style of wrestling that the Irish whip comes from is collar and elbow, although I have heard it referred to as whip wrestling. But it is a very old and tested technique, nonetheless.
And I can guarantee that you are wrong about this. For you to irish whip somebody who was resisting, you'd have to be able to pull with enough force to pull not only their bodyweight, but also the force that they are resisting with in the opposite direction. You'd have to have a massive size and strength advantage to be able to pull this off, and if you were this much stronger you could literally just win a match in anyway you wanted
@@daggy6683 You're thinking about this from the modern approach to the Irish whip, where you just give a little tug on their arm and they go flying, whereas I'm coming at this from the intended use of the maneuver. When someone begins to resist, it actually becomes easier to take them off balance; they pull back and you step into them, forcing them to now abruptly change their center of mass while you pull them forward. This is how judo throws are accomplished. The Irish whip is basically a setup to a hip toss.
Gl for someone at 250. I'm a hair under 6'1 and 275, with 6E feet. They'd be able to knock me down far easier. I run from no man, unless Lord God tells me so.
The give-take aspect to even the most "real" wrestling matches is obviously not realistic, but it's still enjoyable to watch and better than tedious UFC matches where *it just looks like* they're lying on the ground and spooning (I know this isn't really the case) e.g. Brock delivering a suplex vs Brock doing a takedown and ground guards for five minutes.
Some of the new artists are good, but Travis does the most entertaining and visually appealing job of encapsulating a podcast segment in a single frame of art.
When you irish whip and follow them and give a knee right after they hit the ropes, it totally works. The roperunning we've seen since the mid 80s is stupid af and arguably the biggest credibility killer of them all
@@lautheimpaler4686 false....by the 80s most people knew wrestling was fake, cornette and Brian literally had a segment where they talked about how even in the heyday of wrestling most people knew it was somewhat of a work they just didn't know how much. And it wasn't blatantly obvious. In the 80s most people did NOT believe wrestling was in fact real.
Lol I get a kick out of people who say most people who watched wrestling in the 80's knew it was fake as if they knew every wrestling fan back then. People in the 80's who knew it was fake didn't watch it because it was fake. And the ones who did watch it still though it was real, especially the people I knew who watched it. And if people knew it was fake then, then the near riots wouldn't have broken out and groups of fans wouldn't be waiting outside the arena hoping to beat down the wrestler they hated the most.
i think one reason why the whip works is because the guy being thrown can also use the position offensively and frequently gets the upper hand so its not like they are just sitting ducks on the return
I remember Joe Rogan joked about how silly the collar and elbow tie up is and there was no one there to explain the logic or reason behind it. The purpose behind the collar and elbow was to prevent sucker punches in the opening moments of wrestling matches. Boxing was heavily involved with early wrestling, dudes would just sucker punch you if you shot on him (you can see this in UFC today).
@angryman0 sure there is. I've seen guys agree to touch gloves and throw a punch when the other guy goes for it. Not illegal, but definitely a sucker punch.
It's been established for so long that it's accepted. It doesn't help that the rings are so big now. The fact that WWE uses a 20ft ring just kills any logic. When rings were 12-14ft it was more believable.
btw check out that viscious Trouble in Paradise Kofi threw at Miz in 2012 after he rebounded at the ropes for a great example of the Irish Whip done right
I know how to do an armbar, so I can spot a worked armbar from a mile away. Sometimes they're crap, but other times I can admire the artistry of almost making it look like the real thing. Doesn't bother me either way.
@@Tony-fq5bn Both of those guys are legit shooters so their submissions are gonna look legit. With the kimura, different guys have different flexibility. So it’s easier to make it look good. Brock would hold the lock as if he’s already pushing as far as the guys arm will go… and then it snaps. In reality he’s holding it a few inches before it reaches full tension, and then jerks it forward closer to that point, but without actually reaching or surpassing that point which would result in injury.
I remember having a fantasy organization wrestler as a kid whose finisher was an irish whip off the middle rope. Sit them on the top turnbuckle and then violently yank them down face first into the canvas.
Well the very first kayfabe reason for any move to have any sense in wrestling: the guy is groggy. Not unconscious enough to beat him already by pinfall, but groggy enough to do some damage. Like doing a top rove move to him, or throwing him towards the rope.
I remember encountering two dudes arguing about something like this just a few years ago. One of them was so into old school wrestling and the other dude was so into modern indie wrestling. The old school guy keep criticizing the overused spot nowadays where one wrestler or a bunch of them at ring side will just keep standing there waiting until their opponent jumps from the top-rope and dives on them. He really went on saying how phony looking it was. The other guy retorted by saying that today's ringside dive spots is what the Irish Whip is just like then, both are clearly phony looking but you just gotta suspend your disbelief and accept that these moves just "work" in pro wrestling. I felt like both those dudes were missing the point, but I didn't butt in because listening to their argument was entertaining as heck.
@@Ockap1812 in the WWE back in the day it looked way worse. Dudes would act knocked out then roll into place closer to the turnbuckle to make sure the diver doesn't miss.
Much of that history has already been well documented by others. Tim Hornbaker, Larry Matysik, Matt Farmer, Steve Yohe, Mike Chapman, Dave Meltzer to name a few.
Colega Pro Wrestling's (Osaka) Hora-chan has an Irish Whip comedic bit where he runs the ropes like a world-class sprinter -- which eventually gets slower and slower and slower -- and eventually face plants on the mat to the surprise of his puzzled opponent.
I haven't watched Colega in months...did Hibiscus Mii lose yet? Also is UEXILE still there? Also Fuchi in AJPW first used the spot if running back and forth delivering lariats in the corner until he got exhausted, being an old man. I think that is where Hora-Chan got the idea.
@@Gotchism4Life Momoka Hanazono pinned Hibiscus Mii for the first loss. And pre-pandemic temporary shutdown, Naoki Tanizaki won a battle royale/ladder match to become the inaugural CPW Champion -- but vacated the title during the closure. Since returning, the company is running three days a week.......and Uexile remains a regular w/ Land's End.
Konan used to deliver the worst Irish Whip. He would stand flat footed and put nothing into the whip than a little fling of his opponent’s arm and his opponent would have to take off running. I couldn’t believe no one coached him on that.
I always took it as the wrestler that is whipped into the ropes is willing to go because, for example, he can come back off the ropes and clothesline his opponent. But I did sometimes wonder why no one stops and just punches the guy because it seemed like no one is expecting that. :)
This question and topic is exactly how I decided I was certain wrestling was “predetermined” when I was like 7 or 8. My friends all thought I was stupid. I mean yeah I for sure am lol just not about this
I started watching wrestling in the early 90s. Been addicted ever since! I remember you were the ultimate heel manager. Hated you as a kid, but since then I have much respect for your insight and wit. Those were never shown on television, and I understand why.
But then what is the move for in the first place? What is the dude doing the Irish whip going for? Is he just trying to make the dude fall flat on his face? This has always been my issue: If the dude running is choosing to do that… what was the original intent of his opponent?
Don murocco had a very distinctive Irish whip..a double handed wrist grab.. As did macho man.. Savage did a grab behind the head and grab the wrist type of whip..
The Irish Whip is the dumbest move in wrestling history, with the second being the drop down. How someone will see someone falling down in front of them and you step right over them instead of dropping down and doing something to them, is just phony as hell.
The drop down is a leg chop, that's completely legit if you're actually trying to hit the other guy. But they aren't trying to break each other's legs so they leave enough distance so the other guy can safely jump over.
irish whip, as a way to bounce them off the ropes to return to you, idk. but I did once irish whip a guy into a huge window, irl. he was unable to "just stop" and didn't "trip on his own feet"
The guy who asked the question is right. Growing up, the running to, and bouncing off, the ropes was the biggest giveaway that what I was watching wasn't entirely legitimate.
I remember Raven saying he never did the reverse Irish whip because when be broke in it was considered a high spot and you just didn't do it except for special circumstances.
As Yoshiko shooted (I'm guessing that would be the verb form as "shot" doesn't sound right?) on Act Yasukawa in JOSHI Pro Wrestling, she actually gave her an Irish whip right in the middle of it all, which Yasukawa came running back from. I always found that interesting.
They were attempting to work at that point but the heat between them was so strong it ended up a pure shoot. I think that's why the referee didn't stop it - Japanese wrestling is often half real, half fake so things can become blurred at times. Nakamura even said he thought him and Ibushi were legit shooting on each other at WK9.
@@duckmercy11 It was more that they kept going back and forth between working and shooting, so the staff was hoping they would end it professionally without having to step in - but that didn't happen of course. Pretty much everyone agrees it should have been stopped earlier, though. Even Yoshiko was kind of like "what the f why aren't you stopping this?" at a few points during the match.
I briefly wrestled and was surprised to find out bouncing off the ropes actually made you take a step or two. That's if you bounced off the ropes correctly. You'd have to take a step to avoid falling down because of the momentum transfer. Also, bouncing off the ropes HURTS at first. How much it hurts probably depends on how the ropes are made.
When I was a kid, when my friends and i would rough house outside. So many times I would instinctively Irish whip them, just from having watched so much wrestling. Never did anything tho because they'd go about 4 steps, stop, and come right back😂😂
Funniest thing Ric Flair ever did was when he was whipped into the corner turnbuckle, flipped over the top rope and then started running to the other side on the corner of the ring apron, where he would be met with a clothesline before he got to the other turnbuckle, where if he made it, he would jump off the top rope and be met with a fist to the stomach. It looked very cartoony the way he did that and I was never sure if he didn't just do that for comedy, knowing that it wasn't going to work
I'm surprised that Jim didn't mention Whipper Billy Watson, the Cdn. champion who also used the Irish whip and threw his opponents into the opposite ring post. I heard a story that Watson whipped an opponent into the opposite corner so hard, he broke the man's shoulder. IDK if it's true, but the Whipper was a very popular guy in Toronto for many years.
This was a pretty educational video. I love a lot of wrestling history, even though a lot of matches before 1970 are painfully unexciting to watch by today's standards. I remember watching an old Bob Backlund match and thinking, "Darn, how long is he going to keep that headlock going?"
This is so awesome and that Is why Jim is such a treasure. I could count on one hand how many people would be qualified to answer this. Such a good nuanced answer. You gave the history explained how it can look phoney but it can be real in certain situations. Of course that type of question leads to others like the assisted verticle suplex where the wrestler is obviously just waiting and trying not to lean on his own and cause the drop so the other wrestler gets over for holding him up so long.
YES! This is the question I've been wanting to ask since the 90s, not just about about this particular move but a lot of them, thank you! ...Actually I wondered since the 80s now that I think about it. I was a gymnast as a kid so that helped me understand how some things did and didn't work, but other things either didn't look right or baffled my intuitive understanding of physics, like splashes and leg/elbow drops. Then there's the good old foot stomp when the action is just a face slap, lol. Even little kids, if they're smart, can see right through some of it. That's why I didn't really like wrestling at first, but more than that I didn't like most of the wrestler's gimmicks. I liked Kevin Sullivan and Fallen Angel for the cheesy Satanism, Jake the Snake because he really frightened me (Damien didn't) and G.L.O.W. because it was hilarious but the women were badasses. I also liked it coming down from acid Saturday mornings (I think) with the color and contrast on the tv all the way up!
The idea is that you're essentially throwing them on their feet via quick reversal of momentum. Obviously, it wouldn't work IRL bc you cannot make a person run, lol. Even if Andre did it, the person would simply fall down. Jim is great to listen to for this stuff though. I was a wrestling addict when I was a little boy so this was starting in the mid 80s. Even at age 4 or 5, I didn't believe the double axe handle or Irish whip could work or hurt people.
The entire point is that going with the Irish whip and running is the _COUNTER_ to the move. Originally the Irish whip would throw the person onto the mat so a move could be done to them. So running developed as a counter to that, because it was better than falling over and being vulnerable to a ground attack, in kayfabe.
I asked Conor McGregor about the history of the “Irish Whip”. He stated that it was a piece of cable his father used on him when he misbehaved, which was like every fu**ing day.
Even as a little kid who thought wrestling was real, I always felt that the turnbuckle flip that HBK would do when getting whipped into the turnbuckle was really fake and phoney.
One of my pet peeves in wrestling. In MMA, Bas Rutten used to push kick his opponents into the ropes, and then take advantage of their compromised stance and pounce on them as they rebounded. I guess it's the same idea behind the original whip into the ropes: creates an off balance scramble, takes advantage of the ring. Can be an interesting moment. But the modern style of whipping and rope running has gotten so stylized it's hard to watch. Why do these guys decide to run back and forth in the ring in the middle of a fight?
I’d say that’s the common Americanized pronunciation. I did have a great-aunt who pronounced it “Mah-h-ney”, with just a very quick middle syllable. Her parents were Irish immigrants, so she had this unique Chicagoan accent with just a hint of an Irish thrown in.
Yeah, I remember the first time I saw this. Back when those Buddy Rogers and Verne Gagne kids were killing the business with their unrealistic moves (this is a joke).
Could be the guy being whipped is glad to gain the speed for a counter attack when he bounces back. Also I often think of pro wrestling as another world, perhaps parallel to reality. I don't question Super Mario catching a mushroom and doubling in size.
Moves look fake if they are too homogenized. Everybody does all the moves exactly the same as everybody else. Whether for style or necessity, the old school wrestlers used to do things in a more spontaneous-looking way. As an example of necessity, look at Rick Flair. After he broke his back in the plane crash, he had to take bumps in an odd way for the rest of his career to avoid hurting his back.
The most phoney Irish whips are when a smaller guy shoots off a guy significantly bigger than him. Example there's no logic in Shawn Michaels being able to execute an Irish whip on Vader.
Suspension of disbelief. It's why I can still enjoy professional wrestling. I know what's real and what isn't. I have for many years, but I have always been very good at suspending those thoughts and immersing myself in the moment. Admittedly, it can be hard at times, but if you just completely surrender all rational thought and go along for the ride, it's still fun a lot of the time.
One of the biggest detractions of today's product is the lack of realism. Sure its been a work since the 50s or 60s but at least back then and up to relatively recently it seemed realistic. We didn't see Ricky Steamboat do a 360 frog splash onto Rick Flair as Flair was tweeting a selfie instead of rolling out of the way or something.
I’m glad this got asked. Fuck running the ropes. The whip itself isn’t bad especially into something like another opponent or stairs or the corner but fuck bouncing off the ropes. That’s some jabroni shit
I can’t believe you guys actually answered! This is crazy! Thanks for reading, Jim and Brian.
Well played
@@garydavis2036 aaaaaaalllll
Good question man thanks! I was hoping to find an answer and glad it was Jim who answered.
I like when Cornette explains the mechanics of some moves and spots and also the when, how and why they were invented. I understand better the idea.
You mean when he makes excuses for the garbage they also did back then. This is the guy that gets mad at people for dressing as a video game character yet booked a Mummy for a show once.
@@rickybobbyroode9814 he gets mad at cosplayers? wtf
You got 69 likes bro. I like your comment but I’m also a legend, I won’t be the one to ruin your glory.
There's a statue to Danno O'Mahony in Ballydehob, West Cork, Ireland. I saw it this summer coincidentally, my mother lives in a nearby town. I think writing nearby or maybe on the side of the plinth credits him with creating the Irish Whip.
Never knew that, how cool.
Irish legend.
Ya, I live really close to Ballydehob, my dad even built the ring around the statue, it is so cool that a move used universally now in wrestling, to be created by somebody in a small village like that.
@@shanebowen97 That's great. I took notice of the ring and thought it was a nice touch. I saw online afterwards that it didn't have the ring when it was first put up.
th-cam.com/video/FXuviXP1xrg/w-d-xo.html
As a wrestler, what kills the Irish Whip is when wrestlers run before there is the PULL from there opponent. That's IF there is a PULL as well. Like Jim says, The Vader whip. It's a pet peeve of mine. During training I always emphasize this basic with younger wrestlers, because it really does kill the suspension of disbelief when done incorrectly.
@@nothanks6549 Eh so just exchanging one kayfabe killer for another lol.
Too many have forgotten that it's supposed to look like a struggle not a choreographed dance routine.
I can't imagine why anyone would start running before their back is pushed, much less before their arm is even pulled. I believe it happens, because now that you've mentioned it I realize I've seen that a dozen times on Monterrey's indies. I realize why the shoot offs looked so strange, that the guy wasn't really pushing or pulling, and I still don't get it. I don't care if you're a friend of the promoter who's just paying to get in his ring, have you ever been in...a fight?...a wrestling match?... a rugby game?...a crowded hallway? Anything?(just venting, not asking you)
I've had very similar thoughts about the Irish Whip too, but I've always just accepted it for the reason Jim said (it's very well established.) There is simply nothing that says "pro wrestling" more then an Irish Whip. And yeah, if done well and in the right way, it can definitely look far more plausible then it usually does these days. I think It'd be a little bit tricky though, because it really depends heavily on both wrestlers to get it looking just right and it's done several times in a single match.
Nothing says pro wrestling like a top rope elbow drop
@@Blk.Philip collar and elbow hook up
@@slappygilmour1984 well that’s something you do in amateur wrestling to gain control over your opponent. I’d say doing the collar and elbow tie up standing so straight up is when it leaves the realm of realism.
Just don't over think and break apart pro wrestling moves and boom problem solved.
Dropkick
An Irish Whip (shoot off) can benefit either wrestler, depending on what happens after the bounce. That's why I never questioned it.
I asked this myself a couple years ago glad to hear Jim's thoughts on it
Don’t lie
@@wilabanodeniro9780 What?
I just watched a Lou Thesz/ Buddy Rogers match and they use the ropes once and Thesz actually pushed Rogers into the ropes, but Rogers didn’t bounce and run into the other ropes.
It looked legitimate, not like the mess it became.
Wasn't it Gangrel that added like a jumping motion to his Irish whip, and sometimes he'd even end up falling to his hands with his own momentum? Pretty sure he was the one that did it that way, always thought it was cool twist on it.
He definitely did a little hop and I'll always remember it. Also remember in early 90s WCW guys would do the whip to the corner and fall down with the throw
I remember reading that there was a Whip in Irish Folk style wrestling, where you'd grip their wrist with one hand, and put the other on their elbow, and then just run the guy forwards. Torqueing the arm like that put them off balance, and if they tried to resist it directly it would hyperextend the elbow joint. It was apparently popular with the bouncers who knew it because you could run somebody out the front door of the pub without really hurting them.
The Irish Whip is definitely a move that looked much better when they did it back in 50s…it used to look pretty legit the way they used to do it.
My problem with the Irish whip, and rope running in general, is that EVERYONE seems to think they have to do it. Not everyone can do it well, or even needs to. Does everyone need to chokeslam too?
No not at all. Always looked the same. The difference is that back then someone you liked was doing it.
@@rickybobbyroode9814 the thirties Irish whip is the only one that looks good Because it's a two-on-one arm dragish judo throw
Actually, Irish Whip is an old wrestling style in which two competitors would lock arms and wrestle by whipping each other around, trying to score a throw. But, I can guarantee that if a 250 lb wrestler were to grab you by the arm and throw you toward the rope, you're either going, or you're falling out of the ring. The rebound is because if you were to try and stop after hitting the ropes, you would trip and fall. So you might as well go with it, or risk putting yourself in a compromised position. It is not a bullshit move, but has become a bullshit move because of how it is performed. But when people say that once you use an Irish whip, the whole match becomes ridiculous, they show that they clearly don't understand the history of pro wrestling and its origins.
Edit: the style of wrestling that the Irish whip comes from is collar and elbow, although I have heard it referred to as whip wrestling. But it is a very old and tested technique, nonetheless.
And I can guarantee that you are wrong about this. For you to irish whip somebody who was resisting, you'd have to be able to pull with enough force to pull not only their bodyweight, but also the force that they are resisting with in the opposite direction. You'd have to have a massive size and strength advantage to be able to pull this off, and if you were this much stronger you could literally just win a match in anyway you wanted
@@daggy6683 You're thinking about this from the modern approach to the Irish whip, where you just give a little tug on their arm and they go flying, whereas I'm coming at this from the intended use of the maneuver. When someone begins to resist, it actually becomes easier to take them off balance; they pull back and you step into them, forcing them to now abruptly change their center of mass while you pull them forward. This is how judo throws are accomplished. The Irish whip is basically a setup to a hip toss.
Gl for someone at 250. I'm a hair under 6'1 and 275, with 6E feet. They'd be able to knock me down far easier. I run from no man, unless Lord God tells me so.
@@misterx6346 Does God often tell you to do things ?
I was taught to put a fair bit of force behind shootoffs, and always make it look somewhat out of control when hitting the ropes off one
Here you can see Danno O'Mahony do the Irish whip back in 1935: th-cam.com/video/FLj1FxTV-KI/w-d-xo.html
The give-take aspect to even the most "real" wrestling matches is obviously not realistic, but it's still enjoyable to watch and better than tedious UFC matches where *it just looks like* they're lying on the ground and spooning (I know this isn't really the case) e.g. Brock delivering a suplex vs Brock doing a takedown and ground guards for five minutes.
The King of Art Travis Heckel is here! Jim Cornette, Brain Last and Travis Heckel knows how to be entertaining!
Soy boy
Some of the new artists are good, but Travis does the most entertaining and visually appealing job of encapsulating a podcast segment in a single frame of art.
When you irish whip and follow them and give a knee right after they hit the ropes, it totally works. The roperunning we've seen since the mid 80s is stupid af and arguably the biggest credibility killer of them all
Kitchen Sink. My favorite!
You think running the ropes is the biggest killer of credibility? Watch aew for half an hour if you want to see serious credibility killing
@@trahapace150 lol that's not how credibility killing works. In the 80's, most people thought that wrestling is real. Now they don't.
@@lautheimpaler4686 false....by the 80s most people knew wrestling was fake, cornette and Brian literally had a segment where they talked about how even in the heyday of wrestling most people knew it was somewhat of a work they just didn't know how much. And it wasn't blatantly obvious. In the 80s most people did NOT believe wrestling was in fact real.
Lol I get a kick out of people who say most people who watched wrestling in the 80's knew it was fake as if they knew every wrestling fan back then. People in the 80's who knew it was fake didn't watch it because it was fake. And the ones who did watch it still though it was real, especially the people I knew who watched it. And if people knew it was fake then, then the near riots wouldn't have broken out and groups of fans wouldn't be waiting outside the arena hoping to beat down the wrestler they hated the most.
i think one reason why the whip works is because the guy being thrown can also use the position offensively and frequently gets the upper hand so its not like they are just sitting ducks on the return
I always looked at it as the wrestler that's being "whipped" is going with it , with the intention to turn it in their favor
I remember Joe Rogan joked about how silly the collar and elbow tie up is and there was no one there to explain the logic or reason behind it.
The purpose behind the collar and elbow was to prevent sucker punches in the opening moments of wrestling matches.
Boxing was heavily involved with early wrestling, dudes would just sucker punch you if you shot on him (you can see this in UFC today).
I think you're confusing one of Joe Rogans statements. What he actually said is "I think this wrestler needs more DMT".
@Hidden Sword
Being kicked is more likely these days than it was in the past. Kicking and knee strikes weren't much of a concern as they are now
@angryman0 sure there is. I've seen guys agree to touch gloves and throw a punch when the other guy goes for it. Not illegal, but definitely a sucker punch.
@@natebaxter9551 Same for hitting people after the bell (or horn I guess in UFC) or after a break.
I always assumed the collar and elbow was just brought over from an amateur wrestling lockup.
It's been established for so long that it's accepted. It doesn't help that the rings are so big now. The fact that WWE uses a 20ft ring just kills any logic. When rings were 12-14ft it was more believable.
I have been waiting for this topic for so long! Thank you so much Jim and Brian.
Absolutely love when Cornette gets into wrestling history
Such good shit pal
btw check out that viscious Trouble in Paradise Kofi threw at Miz in 2012 after he rebounded at the ropes for a great example of the Irish Whip done right
Very Well put!! Without a doubt one of the best! Jim and Brian has the best wrestling talk shows on Air!!
I know how to do an armbar, so I can spot a worked armbar from a mile away. Sometimes they're crap, but other times I can admire the artistry of almost making it look like the real thing. Doesn't bother me either way.
What did you think of Brocks armbar when he "broke" HHH's arm and also of Del RIos Armbar finisher. I thought it looked pretty good
Whenever someone talks about armbar in wrestling, I think of Asuka countering a slap with a flying armbar.
@@Tony-fq5bn Both of those guys are legit shooters so their submissions are gonna look legit. With the kimura, different guys have different flexibility. So it’s easier to make it look good. Brock would hold the lock as if he’s already pushing as far as the guys arm will go… and then it snaps. In reality he’s holding it a few inches before it reaches full tension, and then jerks it forward closer to that point, but without actually reaching or surpassing that point which would result in injury.
The whole criss-cross running the ropes is the dumbest thing I've ever seen!🤣
I agree. I used to feel like vomiting when they did that.
hogan warrior
The whip never bothered me. The Flair flop always did though. Should’ve been barred for that shit
I remember having a fantasy organization wrestler as a kid whose finisher was an irish whip off the middle rope. Sit them on the top turnbuckle and then violently yank them down face first into the canvas.
"Jericho is taking short cuts in the ring. Like doing an Irish whip and not following it up with a step" - Jim Cornette
It’s the small things like that that makes stuff look super fake and obvious. I mean at least posture like you’re putting some effort in
Well the very first kayfabe reason for any move to have any sense in wrestling: the guy is groggy. Not unconscious enough to beat him already by pinfall, but groggy enough to do some damage. Like doing a top rove move to him, or throwing him towards the rope.
Waaaaay back in 1978 in my early days of watching, I questioned the Irish Whip. I think that and the Monkey Flip need to be retired.
i remember just back in the early/mid 90s the irish whip was like a special move in a match , Corny is right that it’s over done now.
I always pondered this. Thanks Jim!!!!
Good analysis Jim
I remember encountering two dudes arguing about something like this just a few years ago. One of them was so into old school wrestling and the other dude was so into modern indie wrestling. The old school guy keep criticizing the overused spot nowadays where one wrestler or a bunch of them at ring side will just keep standing there waiting until their opponent jumps from the top-rope and dives on them. He really went on saying how phony looking it was. The other guy retorted by saying that today's ringside dive spots is what the Irish Whip is just like then, both are clearly phony looking but you just gotta suspend your disbelief and accept that these moves just "work" in pro wrestling. I felt like both those dudes were missing the point, but I didn't butt in because listening to their argument was entertaining as heck.
Ya, but at least it was just one(obvious) thing back then, nowadays wrestling pretty much looks completely choreographed
thats a good argument from both guys. pro wrestling is not suppose to be like a real fight but it just has its own logic
I think the fakest looking spots today are the overly assisted top rope moves. It clearly looks like they're both helping each other out.
@@Ockap1812 in the WWE back in the day it looked way worse. Dudes would act knocked out then roll into place closer to the turnbuckle to make sure the diver doesn't miss.
Fuck.. I feel like there's so much history and knowledge that will go with Jim Cornette
Much of that history has already been well documented by others. Tim Hornbaker, Larry Matysik, Matt Farmer, Steve Yohe, Mike Chapman, Dave Meltzer to name a few.
Colega Pro Wrestling's (Osaka) Hora-chan has an Irish Whip comedic bit where he runs the ropes like a world-class sprinter -- which eventually gets slower and slower and slower -- and eventually face plants on the mat to the surprise of his puzzled opponent.
I haven't watched Colega in months...did Hibiscus Mii lose yet? Also is UEXILE still there?
Also Fuchi in AJPW first used the spot if running back and forth delivering lariats in the corner until he got exhausted, being an old man. I think that is where Hora-Chan got the idea.
@@Gotchism4Life Momoka Hanazono pinned Hibiscus Mii for the first loss. And pre-pandemic temporary shutdown, Naoki Tanizaki won a battle royale/ladder match to become the inaugural CPW Champion -- but vacated the title during the closure. Since returning, the company is running three days a week.......and Uexile remains a regular w/ Land's End.
@@richardcoreno Thanks for the updates. What days are they running? I assume Saturday is still Saturday Night Rising Stars.
@@Gotchism4Life Thursday-Saturday
@@richardcoreno Thanks again. 👍
Konan used to deliver the worst Irish Whip. He would stand flat footed and put nothing into the whip than a little fling of his opponent’s arm and his opponent would have to take off running. I couldn’t believe no one coached him on that.
I always took it as the wrestler that is whipped into the ropes is willing to go because, for example, he can come back off the ropes and clothesline his opponent. But I did sometimes wonder why no one stops and just punches the guy because it seemed like no one is expecting that. :)
It mainly depends on how someone takes the move.
This question and topic is exactly how I decided I was certain wrestling was “predetermined” when I was like 7 or 8. My friends all thought I was stupid. I mean yeah I for sure am lol just not about this
Bret Hart and Benoit made it look great.
In the ring, those two could make anything look great.
No surprise
This clip had more double-entendre than a fucking Carry On film ;P
I always wondered why it was called the "Irish Whip", and I got my answer.
I think Steen started the back of the head push off for his pop up power bomb.
I never thought I would see a lepercorny!!!!
A leprecornette 😂
You’ll never get me lucky cheeseburgers!
I started watching wrestling in the early 90s. Been addicted ever since! I remember you were the ultimate heel manager. Hated you as a kid, but since then I have much respect for your insight and wit. Those were never shown on television, and I understand why.
To me I always just figured the kayfabe was that people only ran to the ropes to try and come back and counter
But then what is the move for in the first place? What is the dude doing the Irish whip going for? Is he just trying to make the dude fall flat on his face? This has always been my issue: If the dude running is choosing to do that… what was the original intent of his opponent?
Jim is describing a full armdrag and twist.
I always always always love it when Jim shares his historical knowledge of wrestling.
Don murocco had a very distinctive Irish whip..a double handed wrist grab.. As did macho man.. Savage did a grab behind the head and grab the wrist type of whip..
The Irish Whip is the dumbest move in wrestling history, with the second being the drop down. How someone will see someone falling down in front of them and you step right over them instead of dropping down and doing something to them, is just phony as hell.
The drop down is a leg chop, that's completely legit if you're actually trying to hit the other guy. But they aren't trying to break each other's legs so they leave enough distance so the other guy can safely jump over.
Literally one of the few wrestling holds that I never seen in a shoot pro-wrestling match is this one.
irish whip, as a way to bounce them off the ropes to return to you, idk.
but I did once irish whip a guy into a huge window, irl. he was unable to "just stop" and didn't "trip on his own feet"
The guy who asked the question is right. Growing up, the running to, and bouncing off, the ropes was the biggest giveaway that what I was watching wasn't entirely legitimate.
I remember Raven saying he never did the reverse Irish whip because when be broke in it was considered a high spot and you just didn't do it except for special circumstances.
As Yoshiko shooted (I'm guessing that would be the verb form as "shot" doesn't sound right?) on Act Yasukawa in JOSHI Pro Wrestling, she actually gave her an Irish whip right in the middle of it all, which Yasukawa came running back from. I always found that interesting.
They were attempting to work at that point but the heat between them was so strong it ended up a pure shoot. I think that's why the referee didn't stop it - Japanese wrestling is often half real, half fake so things can become blurred at times. Nakamura even said he thought him and Ibushi were legit shooting on each other at WK9.
Shot is the correct term.
@@natebaxter9551 you know the light I never knowed, I'm on the dark side of the road.
@@duckmercy11 It was more that they kept going back and forth between working and shooting, so the staff was hoping they would end it professionally without having to step in - but that didn't happen of course. Pretty much everyone agrees it should have been stopped earlier, though. Even Yoshiko was kind of like "what the f why aren't you stopping this?" at a few points during the match.
I briefly wrestled and was surprised to find out bouncing off the ropes actually made you take a step or two. That's if you bounced off the ropes correctly. You'd have to take a step to avoid falling down because of the momentum transfer. Also, bouncing off the ropes HURTS at first. How much it hurts probably depends on how the ropes are made.
When I was a kid, when my friends and i would rough house outside. So many times I would instinctively Irish whip them, just from having watched so much wrestling. Never did anything tho because they'd go about 4 steps, stop, and come right back😂😂
Funniest thing Ric Flair ever did was when he was whipped into the corner turnbuckle, flipped over the top rope and then started running to the other side on the corner of the ring apron, where he would be met with a clothesline before he got to the other turnbuckle, where if he made it, he would jump off the top rope and be met with a fist to the stomach. It looked very cartoony the way he did that and I was never sure if he didn't just do that for comedy, knowing that it wasn't going to work
I'm surprised that Jim didn't mention Whipper Billy Watson, the Cdn. champion who also used the Irish whip and threw his opponents into the opposite ring post. I heard a story that Watson whipped an opponent into the opposite corner so hard, he broke the man's shoulder. IDK if it's true, but the Whipper was a very popular guy in Toronto for many years.
I once got into a fight in junior high school and I whipped the guy into the lockers. He fell like a stone.
What I saw this video I so hoped it was going to be an explanation of why it is called Irish with as opposed to any other kind of whip
This was a pretty educational video. I love a lot of wrestling history, even though a lot of matches before 1970 are painfully unexciting to watch by today's standards. I remember watching an old Bob Backlund match and thinking, "Darn, how long is he going to keep that headlock going?"
This is so awesome and that Is why Jim is such a treasure. I could count on one hand how many people would be qualified to answer this. Such a good nuanced answer. You gave the history explained how it can look phoney but it can be real in certain situations. Of course that type of question leads to others like the assisted verticle suplex where the wrestler is obviously just waiting and trying not to lean on his own and cause the drop so the other wrestler gets over for holding him up so long.
I agree with Silicone Valley guy. The irish whip does kind of kill the mystique.
In the 60's mad dog vachon used the whip as a finisher
YES! This is the question I've been wanting to ask since the 90s, not just about about this particular move but a lot of them, thank you!
...Actually I wondered since the 80s now that I think about it. I was a gymnast as a kid so that helped me understand how some things did and didn't work, but other things either didn't look right or baffled my intuitive understanding of physics, like splashes and leg/elbow drops. Then there's the good old foot stomp when the action is just a face slap, lol. Even little kids, if they're smart, can see right through some of it. That's why I didn't really like wrestling at first, but more than that I didn't like most of the wrestler's gimmicks. I liked Kevin Sullivan and Fallen Angel for the cheesy Satanism, Jake the Snake because he really frightened me (Damien didn't) and G.L.O.W. because it was hilarious but the women were badasses. I also liked it coming down from acid Saturday mornings (I think) with the color and contrast on the tv all the way up!
The idea is that you're essentially throwing them on their feet via quick reversal of momentum. Obviously, it wouldn't work IRL bc you cannot make a person run, lol. Even if Andre did it, the person would simply fall down. Jim is great to listen to for this stuff though. I was a wrestling addict when I was a little boy so this was starting in the mid 80s. Even at age 4 or 5, I didn't believe the double axe handle or Irish whip could work or hurt people.
The entire point is that going with the Irish whip and running is the _COUNTER_ to the move. Originally the Irish whip would throw the person onto the mat so a move could be done to them. So running developed as a counter to that, because it was better than falling over and being vulnerable to a ground attack, in kayfabe.
I Irish-whipped a guy face-first into a wall once. I tackled him to the floor as he bounced backwards. Worked for me!
I asked Conor McGregor about the history of the “Irish Whip”. He stated that it was a piece of cable his father used on him when he misbehaved, which was like every fu**ing day.
Even as a little kid who thought wrestling was real, I always felt that the turnbuckle flip that HBK would do when getting whipped into the turnbuckle was really fake and phoney.
7 minutes on the Irish whip. Awesome
Has Jim said anything about the latest WWE talent releases?
I'm waiting on that myself. I want to hear his thoughts on them finally firing Nia Jax.
Next up: The Hip Toss.
Really interesting, thanks
One of my pet peeves in wrestling. In MMA, Bas Rutten used to push kick his opponents into the ropes, and then take advantage of their compromised stance and pounce on them as they rebounded. I guess it's the same idea behind the original whip into the ropes: creates an off balance scramble, takes advantage of the ring. Can be an interesting moment. But the modern style of whipping and rope running has gotten so stylized it's hard to watch. Why do these guys decide to run back and forth in the ring in the middle of a fight?
actually a really good question and answer
It's supposed to be like a double bluff/ game of chicken
Good question.
That is the most hilarious pronunciation of Mahony ever, it is pronounced like Mah-nee
That's funny coz my ex pronounced her own name 'ma-hoe-nee'...
So...
I’d say that’s the common Americanized pronunciation. I did have a great-aunt who pronounced it “Mah-h-ney”, with just a very quick middle syllable. Her parents were Irish immigrants, so she had this unique Chicagoan accent with just a hint of an Irish thrown in.
Yeah, I remember the first time I saw this. Back when those Buddy Rogers and Verne Gagne kids were killing the business with their unrealistic moves (this is a joke).
Could be the guy being whipped is glad to gain the speed for a counter attack when he bounces back.
Also I often think of pro wrestling as another world, perhaps parallel to reality. I don't question Super Mario catching a mushroom and doubling in size.
Moves look fake if they are too homogenized. Everybody does all the moves exactly the same as everybody else. Whether for style or necessity, the old school wrestlers used to do things in a more spontaneous-looking way. As an example of necessity, look at Rick Flair. After he broke his back in the plane crash, he had to take bumps in an odd way for the rest of his career to avoid hurting his back.
At least we all know the best way to get questions answered now 🙄
Have Charley from Starksville ask it?
LMAO LEGEND programing spam emails
The most phoney Irish whips are when a smaller guy shoots off a guy significantly bigger than him. Example there's no logic in Shawn Michaels being able to execute an Irish whip on Vader.
I have sent in a question multiple times too...only for AEW crap to come up this was a good question and for Jim to give us the answer 🤙
Now all you do is push the circle button
Suspension of disbelief. It's why I can still enjoy professional wrestling. I know what's real and what isn't. I have for many years, but I have always been very good at suspending those thoughts and immersing myself in the moment. Admittedly, it can be hard at times, but if you just completely surrender all rational thought and go along for the ride, it's still fun a lot of the time.
Standing/Stalling Suplex
One of the biggest detractions of today's product is the lack of realism. Sure its been a work since the 50s or 60s but at least back then and up to relatively recently it seemed realistic. We didn't see Ricky Steamboat do a 360 frog splash onto Rick Flair as Flair was tweeting a selfie instead of rolling out of the way or something.
It appears that 13 people must like the head palm shoot off.
CORNETTE is WRESTLING
Why is Conrad Thompson in the thumbnail???
😜
The way Americans pronounce Mahony is hilarious 😂😂
More of manny
I’m glad this got asked. Fuck running the ropes. The whip itself isn’t bad especially into something like another opponent or stairs or the corner but fuck bouncing off the ropes. That’s some jabroni shit
I'm more interested in precisely what makes it "Irish".
This picture looks like David Andrews of the New England Patriots. Look him up and you'll see.