Bart Ehrman on the Origins of the Trinity
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The fact that today's Christians focus more on believing in dogmas and doctrines than on following the teachings of Jesus has always, always been astounding to me.
doctrin is above all, above the bible, above the words of jesus. once i saw the video of priest responded question about error translation / contradiction in bible. he explain it is not big problem, it can be tolerate, as long as not disturbing the faith especially trinity.
@@anndroid8734 said,
doctrin is above all, above the bible, above the words of jesus. once i saw the video of priest responded question about error translation / contradiction in bible. he explain it is not big problem, it can be tolerate, as long as not disturbing the faith especially trinity.
**********************************
Your comment reveals why good people hate Christianity.
"Doctrine is above all"? Is it also above helping the poor, not imposing your beliefs on others, and not considering yourself "above non-Christians" simply because your are a Christian?
@@anndroid8734 -> The trinity is a lie. Not even Biblical. Just like the lie of a rapture.
The idea that Christian doctrine is somehow divorced from the direct teachings of Jesus, as is so often claimed by Muslims and non-Christians, is utterly ignorant of Christian history and neglects scripture in its entirety. There is no coherent reading of the gospels that lacks trinitarian theology. It’s sad that people listen to fringe views and cherry-picked verses from the NT and use that to act like the widely held views throughout the entirety of Christian history are somehow baseless or misguided.
@@brigadierharsh1948 said,
The idea that Christian doctrine is somehow divorced from the direct teachings of Jesus, as is so often claimed by Muslims and non-Christians, is utterly ignorant of Christian history and neglects scripture in its entirety. There is no coherent reading of the gospels that lacks trinitarian theology. It’s sad that people listen to fringe views and cherry-picked verses from the NT and use that to act like the widely held views throughout the entirety of Christian history are somehow baseless or misguided.
***************************
1. How can an idea be ignorant of anything?
2. Is it at all possible that "the widely held views" are wrong?
3. Those who claim or believe "the widely held view" throughout the Christendom somehow have been unchanged "throughout the entirety of Christian history" are either willfully ignorant or deceitful.
The trinity actually violates the very laws of logic.
Name these laws...
@@canderssonswedican7486 The law of Identity, the law of excluded middle, and the law of non contradiction.
A thing cannot be what it is and be something else at the same time and in the same respect.
God cannot be the father and the son, at the same time and in the same respect. That violates the laws of logic.
A is A, A is not B.
If A were B, it would be B, it wouldn't be A.
@@jinxy72able God is beyond our own imagination. He can enter his own creation as he chooses, God cannot be restricted to the laws of logic in this universe as he is beyond it.
william James exactly you can’t apply the laws of logic on God. We can’t and will never understand Gods nature fully. While being here on earth.
@@ernesto.748 thanks brother. Another thing I tell muslims is how can God be present everywhere simultaneously? How is that possible? How is it possible for God to see things that are currently happening in Russia, New Zealand, South Africa and UK? Muslims tell me that God is beyond our own imagination, than I tell them that this issue can also be applied to the trinity God. The trinity God is beyond our imagination.
I tried to explain the Trinity to someone who never heard of it before, and they looked at me like I was saying the most illogical thing ever said. I had to keep reassuring that I was not making this stuff up.
I think the Trinity WAS made up by humans
@@Mr05241948 yep Satan wants people confused on who God is
@@AstariahFox And this is the best way to do it
Are you muslim?
@@AstariahFox what does that mean, is it b.s. or not?
Peace!
Most Christians believe whatever their Pastor tells them to believe, they wash it down afterwards with their cake and tea then go home and talk about how what Doris wore to church was inappropriate. They couldn't care less about how the oldest manuscripts differ from the Bible they now follow etc, it would cause them to think too much and ruin their little make believe story they've told themselves.
Pretty much spot on for many/most believers (not just Christians).
Crazy prayingmantis
Well the gospel today doesn’t different as much as people think it does, the message if Christianity is still the same. How some aspects that are interpreted may change but the manuscripts are not an entire different message. If any thing all the manuscripts we ever found are well over 90 % the same message if not more. Variations occur only in biblical version because as time moves, languages change and we speak a little differently so we try to have different versions to understand the message of Christianity.
You are being manipulated by a slick talking fool. You think believers are fooled by the Bible & clergy.... BUT it is you who are being fooled by this talking head... There's a reason his name is Err-man
There's a lot of projection going on in this post.
Crazy prayingmantis: Hi brother, if you are speaking about a religion, you are largely correct. But God has little, if anything, to do with religion; God's business is not religion; it is RELATIONSHIP: Father-son-daughter relationship. Believers are His children. Come Home brother, and God bless you.
Doesn't it tickle people's curiosity that the Quran highlighted this very issue as an innovation.
It never come across the christian why would Muhammad pbuh trying sobhard to refute Jesus as a God and christianity. Where Christian people never prosecuted him, in fact Christian king was one of the earliest muslim helper. Muhammad also said in Hadith that he encouraged muslim too restored christian church that broken. What are his motives ? He doesnt seem to hate christian but in the quran time and time again he refutes that Jesus was not God, he just mere human and prophet of God. But christian smh turn a blind eye to this.
Lol the quran didnt even get the trinity right, better luck next time mate
@@robinmjoy you need to do your research a little better my friend. The idea of Trinity comes from the pagan religion of Mithra, whose main city was Tarsus, the city of Paul… connect the dots buddy. In their pagan tradition, the Trinity was God the father, the Human mother and the child of the two, Mithra (half human/half God). When the silly creators of the Bible were manufacturing their new religion they copy pasted the same and original Trinity was God, Mary and Jesus. After Mary became so popular with parishioners, the Church decided to ex her out and replace her with “holy spirit” , which doesn’t make any sense at all. When that Aya was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh), the current Trinity for some of the Churches was God/Mary/ Jesus.
I can understand your confusion because the word of Jesus was co-opted by all these hustlers and changed back and forth for 4-5 centuries after his disappearance to come up with this convoluted man made religion called Christianity that has very little to do with the original Jesus (pbuh).
@@robinmjoy “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).’ But there is no llaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them”
[al-Maa’idah 5:73].
“The Messiah ['Eesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddeeqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)”
[al-Maa’idah 5:75].
I am not CERTAIN of what you mean by this, I don't know much about the Quran, but I do know that Jesus spoke on getting caught up in ridiculous man-made "traditions" like this. Basically treating traditions as religion from how I see it. He called the pharisees a bunch of hypocrites for getting stuck in messes like this
Basically the Trinity evolved over the years!
Yep and they still don't understand it , it's a man made doctrine
Sorry but there's no TRINITY anywhere in the Bible. But you can find it in the Athansian and Nicean Creeds of the pagan Roman Catholic Church.
Shiism also evolved over time
Basically!
@@yeshayahufernandes2234 proof?
The mystery of Christianity will be solved if Jesus was considered to be a prophet of God, a human being which is not God.
We muslims consider him a prophet and messenger of God.
@@mobinmirshekari4884, well, he was just a regular dude like Mohammed.
@@mobinmirshekari4884 Why and how did He resurrect then ? Read the history and wake up
reasons.org/explore/multimedia/rtb-podcast/read/rtb-podcast/2020/07/08/straight-thinking-20-evidences-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-part-2
www.elefant.ro/el-caso-de-cristo-the-case-for-christ-paperback_99c2e6ad-4d1a-488b-a050-4d0130a0eaa4 find a translation or do it yourself.
@Mobin Mirshekari, right. Prophet Isa (PBUH).
@george cobaleanu, Mathew 21:11 "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."
God is not the author of confusion
Which God? As far as the Bible goes, it's God authored nothing, not so wise men, literary geniuses maybe, but wise they were not authored it. Thus why the entire book is a walking contradiction.
monohmar official------well...considering it doesn't make any sense...........
God isn't the author of anything at all.
@@TheBaconWizard when you see a piece of art you wil say someone made it ! Now you see havnens and earth and you say that there is no creator ?? And you go calling peoole stuoid when you are the shit head ! Morrons
*The Christians should be called The Confused’s.*
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
*The Bible actually makes Jesus (pbuh) look like a complete idiot.*
*JESUS GETS PISSED OFF FOR NO LOGICAL REASON*
Mark 11:12-14
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, *BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE SEASON FOR FIGS.* Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
Mark 11:20-25
In the *MORNING*, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
NOW MATTHEW TELLS THE "SAME" STORY, SORT OF.
Matthew 21:18-22
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” *IMMEDIATELY* the tree withered.
*When the disciples SAW this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.*
WTF?
WHEN DID THE FIG TREE DIE? IMMEDIATELY OR THE NEXT MORNING? WHOSE TELLING THE TRUTH, MATTHEW OR MARK?
ALSO, HOW CAN JESUS NOT KNOW WHAT SEASON FIGS GROW IN HIS OWN COUNTRY, AT THE AGE OF 30?
ALSO, WHY CURSE THE PLANT?
THE PLANT WAS JUST FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF NATURE GOD HAD CREATED. WHY WOULD JESUS CURSE THAT?
The more I listen to Bart Ehrman giving the history of the bible, the more I am amazed that any intelligent person can believe a word of the Gospels. In particular, how anyone can perform the intellectual gymnastics required to accept the idea of the Trinity is beyond me. Because no matter which way you cut it, the Trinity makes no sense at all to anyone not infected by the religious virus.
It's easy to believe that every word of all the gospels is true...if you don't think about the words. You could believe that a random stream of letters is a true statement, without asking what that statement is.
I presume it has not occurred to you that you might be infected with the New Atheist virus.
Tony Foreman Aw bless. We wonder what believers do with their brains. But it's simple - they spend all their imagination and intellect finding ways to avoid the obvious.
A non-reply.
Tony Foreman Not good with irony, are you.
A tragic story of how a Prophet of God was made God by one person(Paul)
Stop trying to accuse Paul of something he never did.
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 1:17
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
@@TheKingdomOfGodIsAtHand What do you think of this behaviour ?:
1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
Did you watch the video? Ehrman clearly quotes the gospel of John where it's said that Jesus is eternal and god...
REPENT fuck u
XB
The more I listen to these debates, the more I realize how confusing it all becomes ....
Here is how the first century believers viewed Jesus. It's shocking.
and untold.The Catholic Church invented the trinity doctrine in 325AD. No wonder why the CAtholic Church confiscated the Bible so that nobody could read it but just obey the authority of Rome, The CAtholic Church wanted to keep the world ignorant of the truth and deceived by their trinity doctrine.
th-cam.com/video/D7cnc1QBWg0/w-d-xo.html
I agree. People say a lot!
All of them are convinced they are right and the other is wrong.
The trouble is that these sorts of discussions become all to often lasting distractions from the core teaching of God in new and old testament, "love God, first above everything else, then your neighbour
As yourself.
No matter the faith or denomination you associate with, this is at the heart of true faith and message of God's love and truth.
Hold fast to this for by living this, the greatest commandment, you are fulfilling your purpose and changing the world bit by bit.
@@familyknowles2457 i agree that we all should practice love and faith. However, love and faith doesn't rejoice in deception or unrighteousness. God hates lies. So if you can love your neighbor is great but if you believe lies from Satan ..God sees it differently , because Adam and Eve believed the lie of Satan ,and Adam and Eve lost their relationship with God and were cast away from the garden. They didn't hurt anybody but the fact that they believed Satan...that was a betrayal to God and showed no love for Him. think about it. Believing the truth matters to God
Makes perfect sense from the islamic perspective
@@TorahisLifeandLight I totally agree with you. Love must be balanced by truth. Yes Eve was deceived.
My concern is that in the pursuit of truth so many have gone astray forgetting to love their enemies and do good to those deceived haters.
Look at church history and you see how much infighting there was over the nature of the Godhead. The truth is nobody can say with 100 procent certaintity that God is X, Y or Z. All we have is good circumstantial evidence which points in a certain direction, but no one knows for sure which is why it is so completely foolish to fight about it.
I reiterate; the great commission and the greatest commandment remain as the foundation and goal of life. Everything else is a distraction. I urge everyone to seek truth and not to be deceived into fighting about words, genealogies, and philosophies but to do what Jesus Christ commanded.
That is real faith, the faith God really wants. Faith in action bringing His kingdom. You want know what real faith, expressed in love and truth looks like? Read Isaiah 58 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+58&version=MSG
I was raised as a Christian that was not taught the trinity doctrine, Dr. Ehrman's presentation is right on point. I know that at various times in history I would have been terminated for such beliefs. Many christians along the way have held these views and many were executed for it (Servetus was burned alive and Sir Isaac Newton is known to have not accepted the Trinity and remained totally silent on the issue). Tday there are still many christians who do not accept the trinity as correct. The one thing that I have noticed is that many trinity christians consider me to be not a chirstian because I do not accept the trinity. I adamantly believe that there is only one God. Thank you Dr. Ehrman for your clarity.
Read the Quran for a very clear and holistic explanation of the "one true God". When you are done then you are now able to make an informed view of who God is. quran.com/?local=en
Yes, I also get that I'm not saved if I don't acquiesce to the trinity. Well Peter on the Day of Pentecost preached and 3,000 people were saved and Peter never mentioned anything remotely resembling the trinity. In fact he calls Jesus a man twice in Acts 2:22-23. Like they have the authority to say who is saved and who isn't. The height of religious arrogance. Keep speaking it brother!!! Glory to God thru Jesus the Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach.
Have you read any other scholars.
If you believe that there is One God in the universe, please study Islam.
hear!!! hear!!!
Well said. Thanks for the explanation Dr. Ehrman.
"God is not a man" Numbers 23:19
God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor? James 4:12
I remember in bible study. Everyone freestyles their own understanding and they all contradicted each other.
That was why Jesus said "take my yoke."
And Jesus always agrees 100% with all their individual political views. 🤔
YES! EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON IN MY CATECHISM CLASS. But hey as long as feel good words, particularly 'love' is used, it's deemed acceptable.
Still handling the Word of God like a novice
Brother read Corinthians 14:33 it says god isn’t an author of confusion if there’s a single little confusion, Christianity is gonna be doubted to be the word of god
NO RATIONAL MIND WILL EVER ACCEPT THE CONCEPT OF THE TRINITY.
Here is how the first century believers viewed Jesus. It's shocking.
and untold.The Catholic Church invented the trinity doctrine in 325AD. No wonder why the CAtholic Church confiscated the Bible so that nobody could read it but just obey the authority of Rome, The CAtholic Church wanted to keep the world ignorant of the truth and deceived by their trinity doctrine.
th-cam.com/video/D7cnc1QBWg0/w-d-xo.html
@Henry Kavanagh Yep, and he exhibits rationality. Can you say the same?
Matthew2414 Network Hahaha is this a joke??
@@briemuss05 LOL what's a joke?
Matthew2414 Network the fact that u think the trinity was invented at the council of Nicaea.
8:30 seems to sum this whole thing up. I remember being in church when this whole discussion was brought to light. I also remember some of the church members looking really, really confused.
Nothing confusing about the following...
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
@Produce Your Evidence
Really. One of God's Holy Prophets, probably Elijah, sent from heaven seeing God clearly face to face, SENT BY JESUS, tells you Jesus is LORD GOD of the Holy Prophets and you say ridiculous!
And that in a vision the Holy Prophet John, calls 'the unveiling' or 'disclosure of truth' in the original Koine Greek
Your level of deception is beyond ridiculous. It's called blasphemy.
Rev. 22:19
No eternal life for you. God removes your name from His book of life.
Rev. 3:5
God who removes your name from HIS BOOK OF LIFE is JESUS.
Jesus, who the Prophet John, after hearing what Jesus and the Holy Prophet He sent from heaven said, in Rev. 22:16 Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus GOD ALMIGHTY Rev. 1:7,8
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
The Prophet John calling Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY after hearing
Rev. 22:12, 13
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Satan has blinded you to truth, using your basic sinful, arrogant prideful nature, and apparently you want to play with him.
Again, that's beyond ridiculous.
Blasphemy. Heresy.
The address to all the seven Churches of the Revelation...."He that has an ear let Him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches."
You have blasphemed the Holy Spirit!!
Rev. 22:16
I JESUS HAVE SENT MINE ANGEL TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES.I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
You have called Jesus a liar!
Nighty nite....forever
@@clarawagon9019 There is no “Nighty nite... forever” time and scholarship goes on whether you like it or not. You think using 1st Corinthians written by Paul not an original disciple or eyewitness, and revelations which is already the least credible book in the New Testament apart from its laughable divine concoctions related to depicting Jesus as in Greek mythology, will somehow triumph over all biblical scholarship against the doctrine of the trinity? Such humorous claims are rare indeed.
God is not author of confusion
And this is gonna make you even more confused.
It's impossible to explain a concept which is so inexplicable, so much so that one should examine its outright sensibility.
Interesting comments to Bart's entertaining telling of the history of how the doctrine of the trinity came about, but most seem to not realize that he is not expressing an opinion but simply reciting history as we best know it.
No he isn't. There are plenty of verses in the Synoptics alluding to Jesus' divinity.
@@huskyfaninmass1042 Most mainstream bible historians would disagree. Of course the earlier Gospels were tweaked a bit over the years and it can generally be figured out where. The Gospel of John is when the new narrative began to take shape. The Jesus into God story. The "we" I refer to is mainstream biblical scholarship, not fundamentalists who reject historical evidence. Bart has written extensively on the subject. th-cam.com/video/7IPAKsGbqcg/w-d-xo.html
Au contraire, mon frere. In Matthew Jesus says that anybody that loves their mother and father more than Jesus is not worthy of him. That implies he is the greatest good. He says heaven and earth will pass away before his words pass away. He says he is greater than the Temple. Only God would be considered greater than the Temple. He preached: "you have heard it said, but I say...' This puts his teaching above the Torah. God was the author of the Torah. None of these are the words of a mere prophet or rabbi.
Reciting history will never lead you to the right conclusion because the truth was turned into a lie by Catholicism and thusly history was written as a lie also to make you think the lies of Catholicism are orthodox which is phony baloney
@@huskyfaninmass1042 "There are plenty of verses in the Synoptics alluding to Jesus' divinity." But there are 5 times more verses that proove the opposite.
I was looking for more historical details, but this gives us the conceptual framework we most need.
never really thought deeply about the Trinity and never heard of modalism. Very good lecture. I like this way more than those debates.
These false dioxins don't want you to know about Modalism vs Trinitarianism vs Unitary monotheism because then you'd know what to follow.
Modalism is a garbage that Catholicism gave to the Pentecostal by experience non trinitarians Christians who baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and followed the way of holiness
What a tragedy! Follow the trayectory of this dilusion. First this false teacher starts with pride and thinking He is wise by believing textual criticism. Then he lose his faith and now nothing about the clear truth of the Bible makes sense to him. And lastly he tries to mock spiritual things that he can't even understand without faith. What a tragedy how so many people believe what this man teaches. We should be very selective in what we watch and don't let anybody (with or without PhD) steal our faith. I challenge anybody to read carefully the first three gospels and search for evidence that Jesus existed eternaly before He became flesh. Just and example is Mt.22:43-45. He is King David's Lord. Don't get confused by this apostate of the faith. Choose to trust in Christ and not in this scornful man.
So what are you gonna do with this information??? Shelf it in your brain under entertainment section.
@@TheChadWork2001 Modalism is also monotheism, its simply the view that Jesus Christ is the 1 and only God , thiswas a main view of Cheistians in rhe 2nd century.
Should i tell you how people go astray? When they don't follow what is clear in the Scripture and make theologies by themselves.
The trinity doctrine is polytheism. If you accept three different persons as God, you accept three gods. Could any one of the three proclaim to be the only one who is God and there is no god beside me? No. Could they all three in unison say, "God is one Lord and we are HIM"? No.
That is because you have a misunderstanding of the concept of the Trinity.
Hello Michael Estrada, Eugene here. The truth is, Trinitarians do not understand the Trinity! They tell us that, either at the beginning or at the end of their discourse on the doctrine of the Trinity. The problem is that you seem not to understand what polytheism is. If you identify three different persons as being God, you can say whatever else you please about the three, but you have three Gods. You can say from the pulpit that three are/is one, you can proclaim it in Church Creeds for a thousand years plus, but you cannot make polytheism to be monotheism by declaring it to be so. James White says that the three persons are one being. Three "whos" are one "what". Why are young people with even a little understanding of reason, rejecting Christ? Because Trinitarians ask them to believe non biblical stupid stuff. The trinity puzzle pieces will never fit together.
Again this is a misconception of the Trinity.
Firstly what the Trinity is not: Trinitarianism is not the opposite of monotheism, of which there are various forms. Monotheism can be unitarian (belief that the being of God is shared or possessed by only one center of consciousness, or "person"), or binitarian, or Trinitarian, etc.
The doctrine of the Trinity is that God is one being who exists eternally in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity means that God is, in essence, relational.
The gospel writer John describes the Son as living from all eternity in "the bosom of the Father" (John 1:18), an ancient metaphor for love and intimacy. Later in John's gospel, Jesus, the Son, describes the Spirit as living to "glorify" him (John 16:4]. In turn, the Son glorifies the Father (17:4) and the Father, the Son (17:5). This has been going on for all eternity (17:5b).
What does the term "glorify" mean? To glorify something or someone is to praise, enjoy, and delight in them. When something is useful you are attracted to it for what it can bring you or do for you. But if it is beautiful, then you enjoy it simply for what it is. Just being in its precense is its own reward. To glorify someone is also to serve or defer to him or her. Instead of sacrifificng their interests to make yourself happy, you sacrifice your interests to make them happy. Why? Your ultimate joy is to see them in joy.
What does it mean, then, that the Father, Son, and Holy glorifies one another? If we think of it graphically, we could say that self-centerdness is to be stationary, static. In self-centerdness we demand that others orbit around us. We will do things and give affection to others, as long as it helps us meet our personal goals.
The inner life of the triune God, however, is utterly different. The life of the Trinity is characterizef not by self-centerdness but by mutually self-giving love. When we delight and serve someone else, we enter into a dynamic orbit around him or her, we center on the interests and desires of the other. That creates a dance, particularly if there are three persons, each of whom moves around the other two. So it is, the Bible tells us. Each of the of the the others. None demands that the others revolve around him. Each voluntarily circles the other two, pouring love, delight, and adoration into them. Each person of the Trinity loves, adores, defers, and rejoices in the others. That creates a dynamic, pulsating dance of joy and love. The early leaders of the Greek church had a word for this - perichoresis. Notice our word "choreography" within it. It means literally to "dance or flow around."
The Father...Son...and Holy Spirit glorify each other... At the center of the universe, self-giving love is the dynamic currency of the Trinitarian life of God. The persons within God exalt, commune with, and defer to one another... When early Greek Christians spoke of perichoresis in God they meant that each divine person harbors the others at the center of his being. In constant movement of overture and acceptance each person envelops and encircles the others.
In Christianity God is not an impersonal thing nor a static thing - not even just one person - but a dynamic pulsating activity, a life, a kind of drama, almost, if you will not think me irreverent, a kind of dance... The pattern of this three-personal life is...the great fountain of energy and beauty spurting up at the very center of reality.
Abu taj md mahbub Ul alam well that is according to your understanding. But that sure is not the Biblical understanding.
If there is no God, then everything in and about us is the product of blind impersonal forces. The experience of love may feel significant, but evolutionary naturalists tell us that it is merely a biochemical state in the brain.
But what if there is a God? Does love fare any better? It depends on who you think God is. If God is unipersonal, then until God created other beings there was no love, since love is something that one person has for another. This means that a unipersonal God was power, sovereignty, and greatness from all eternity, but not love. Love then is not of the essence of God, nor is it at the heart of the universe. Power is primary.
However, if God is triune, then loving relationships in community are the great fountain...at the center of reality. When people say, "God is love," I think they mean that love is extremely important, or that God really wants us to love. But in the Christian conception, God really has love as his essence. If he was just one person he couldn't have been loving for all eternity. If he was only the impersonal all-soul of Eastern thought, he couldn't have been loving, for love is something persons do. Eastern religions believe the individual personality is an illusion, and therefore love is, too. For the Buddhist...personality is the fall of man, for the Christian it is the purpose of God, the whole point of his cosmic idea. It is the purpose of God because he is essentially, eternally, interpersonal love.
Ultimate reality is a community of persons who know and love one another. That is what the universe, God, history, and life is all about. If you favor money, power, and accomplishment over human relationships, you will dash yourself on the rocks of reality. When Jesus said you must lose yourself in service to find yourself (Mark 8:35), he was recounting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been doing throughout eternity. You will, then, never get a sense of self by standing still, as it were, and making everything revolve around your needs and interests. Unless you are willing to experience the loss of options and the individual limitation that comes from being in committed relationships, you will remain out of touch with your own nature and the nature of things.
C.S. Lewis once said that the only place besides heaven that is free from pain and suffering of relationships is hell.
Why is this? Because, according to the Bible, this world was not created by a God who is only an individual, nor is it the emanation of an impersonal force. It is not the product of power struggles between personal dieties nor of random, violent, accidental natural forces. Christians reject these other creation accounts, which refuse to give love primacy. We believe the world was made by a God who is a community of persons who have loved each other for all eternity. You were made for mutually self-giving, other-directed love. Self-centerdness destroys the fabric of what God has made.
Michael Estrada, Eugene here.
Has the three God Persons of the one triune God, always been merciful?
If not, did they or any one of them BECOME merciful?
Could God be merciful without someone to be merciful too? Are they merciful to each other?
What do the three of them talk about?
They each knows all that the others know.
They can do what all the others can do.
They lack nothing.
Jesus said that the highest form or degree of Agape love was to "lay down your life for your friend".
Are the three of them friends?
Have they expressed the greatest love?
Who died for who?
Is the second person the only one who has ever actually laid down his life for his friends?
Why is Jesus the only one to love to the uttermost?
Does God change from who He is to who He was not?
If God is now a moving, working, creating, loving, living Person wasn't He always a moving, working, creating, loving, living Person?
Does God now own His own stuff, things and persons, he created? Yes.
Why think that having His own stuff is a new thing for God?
Why couldn't God have always had His own created things and persons that He loves and who loves him back?
Please tell me one way the three persons of the triune God head would show their love to the others. How does God love God?
Excellent and beautifully clear presentation.
Bart May god have a rank for you for your courage on speaking the truth
What a tragedy! Follow the trayectory of this dilusion. First this false teacher starts with pride and thinking He is wise by believing textual criticism. Then he lose his faith and now nothing about the clear truth of the Bible makes sense to him. And lastly he tries to mock spiritual things that he can't even understand without faith. What a tragedy how so many people believe what this man teaches. We should be very selective in what we watch and don't let anybody (with or without PhD) steal our faith. I challenge anybody to read carefully the first three gospels and search for evidence that Jesus existed eternaly before He became flesh. Just and example is Mt.22:43-45. He is King David's Lord. Don't get confused by this apostate of the faith. Choose to trust in Christ and not in this scornful man.
Except so much of what he said it’s just flat out wrong, it’s based on total speculation and just arguments from silence, he’s resting his entire case on the fact that John didn’t mention the virgin birth, first he didn’t have to because it was already mentioned in the previous gospels, and John is different from the other gospels it’s not synoptic gospel, John discusses the divine nature of Christ.
8:35 'The Trinity is a mystery which means you cannot understand it, and if you think you understand it, you misunderstand it.'
it's inconsistent.... added to the bible after few hundred years after jesus death.
Abu Bilaal There is nothing to understand because there never was a trinity.
Abu Bilaal G-d says in Torah he will never speak in riddles parables etc. Another violation of G-ds laws.
Mike Tyson. True look up Johanna Comma 1John 5:7-8 admitedly added into NT. Muslims and Jews know this fact.Salom Akk
motorhead Correct, the Most High if chief among the bene elohim and the divine council.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1,2,3
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Romans already had the Capitoline Triad of gods (three deities who were worshiped in ancient Roman religion) so it's logical to assume they imported it into Christianity once they embraced it, along with Saturnalia (Christmas) and worship of Mary as goddess (Magna Mater).
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
@@mikeoz4803 word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible.
@@tomhools1605 Correct. Your point? It is the Latin word Trinitas meaning 3
It was St. Augustine taught that if think you understand Trinity then you misunderstand it because it’s a mystery. When he was asked to elaborate what he meant by that he shared a personal story of himself pondering in the beach and seeing a child collecting water from a bucket and filing it into a hole she made in the sand. Augustine being curious as to what she was trying to accomplish, interrupting her asked, “What in the good Lord’s name are you trying to accomplish by taking buckets of water and pouring into this hole in the sand?”
She replied, “The act of pouring the water from the ocean into the sand pit one bucket at a time is in the similitude of the very question you’re pondering”
If you ask me, that is a nice story, but I don’t have a testimony of it being truthful. God our Eternal Father and Jesus Christ appeared to a boy in upstate NY in 1820 shattering the myth that the Godhead is a “mystery”
Through the Prophet of the restored Gospel God the Father taught us that we are all born with a divine destiny to be like our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ adding further clarity to Revelation 3:21
As Athanasius put it in the fourth century, "the Son of God became man so that man might become God." This emphasis on theosis, "becoming divine," stands in contrast to the heavy emphasis on human sinfulness present in much of the theology of the Western churches. - Understanding Christianity through its scriptures, Harvard Religion Course
You’re completely full of sh**. Get help please. 😂😂😂
I think Augustine's defense shows just how far the rationalization rabbit hole one can go due to cognitive dissonance.
I'm confused. Professor Ehrman stated that docetism and modalism were the dominant views of the Church for centuries, but then he says Tertullian (who lived in the second century) introduced a new idea, the Trinity which won out.
just because that's when the trinity was introduced doesn't necessarily mean that's when it became the dominant view
That's right. Tertullian lived from approx AD 155 to 220. He was the first Christian Church Father to use the term "Trinity". But the doctrine of the Trinity, as we know it today, was first formulated at the Council of Nicea in AD 325, and then "finalised' into its current form at the Council of Constantinople, in AD 381. So it took around 180 years for the idea for cystallise into the doctrine of the Trinity as we know it, today.
Gentile Christians dug a hole for themselves when they elevated Jesus to god status and then had to keep on digging deeper and deeper.
And remember when the angels said, "O Mary, God sends you the good news of a Command of His: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He will be highly honored in this world and in the Next World and he will be among those favored by God. He will speak to the people alike when in the cradle and when grown up, and he will be among the righteous." Hearing this, Mary said, "How, O Lord, shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me?" "Thus shall it be,"44 was the answer. God creates whatever He wills. When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be" and it is. (Continuing their message, the angels added,) "And God will teach him the Book and wisdom, and give him the knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him as His Messenger to the children of Israel." Quran 3:45-49
beautiful. all the answer is in the Quran
Memoona Bilal foolish and fake religions, especially Islam have no place in these intellectual conversations, cause you know nothing and have nothing to offer.
Memoona Bilal
nope. the Angle told Mary that He will be called the Son of God.
the Savior to mankind. Read Luke. That's how it happened.
A M you muslims have no place amongst the truth and the saints of God. You have a filthy religion copying the existing religions of 700ac. More over, your leader Muhammad was a filthy arrogant criminal, and you are submitted by force to follow him. You are not to understand nor invited to judge the real God and the trully holy scriptures cause you are far away from conceiving these matters, since everything is illustrated by Islam in your minds
Μάριος Λοϊζίδης
why do you call me a Muslim.
+Tony Foreman, Matthew 28. 19 'Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'. This verse is a *Textual Variant*. You won't find this verse in the 2 most ancient Bible (Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Syriacus). This verse was inserted in the Bible in the year 1650 CE.
What is your religion and belief mate?
Eusebuis says the trinity was man made doctrine Eusebuis was an Early church father and historian that lived around 240. A D. He had a library in his home that had manuscripts that had been written around 50 A D his copies of Matthew 28:19 didnt mention a truine formula he read this over 20. Times he read this was Jesus speaking he said. Go ye and. Make. Disciples. Of all nations. In. My. Name or in his name Justblike it says. In Luke sister great commission Luke 24 :47.In that repentence and Remission of sin should be preach in his NAME among all nations beginning. At JERUSALEM. The trinity was later developed by heretical christians who wanted to start division among the early saints of God
@@davidortega357
Eusebies justtified lying as to get people to accept christianity. I cannot accept such a man
Christians avoid Bart like the plague.They get utterly destroyed when they try to debate him. They know before they get up on the platform that they are not going to convince the audience unless some in the audience are completely stupid and ignorant who filter out the truth that bart shares.
They still have time to believe in one true God..... if they use their intellect.
Na, I watched Dr. James White destroy him. Bart only argues from the Manuscripts and their variations. Which no Christian questions. So Bart really has no argument against us. Christians only hold to the fact that the original Autographed copies written by the apostles themselves are the inspired works. And the manuscripts may have variations in them, but were written by uninspired people who make mistakes. The Strength behind them, is, we have the manuscripts in the thousands and the majority of them all read the same. So I'll send out a big yawn to Dr.Ehrman.
Hello again preto shohmoofc guy, Eugene here. I turned 75 yesterday, wow, can't believe I made it this long. The beard is to shade & protect my skin as I tend to get skin cancer.
Please identify the video debate where James White destroyed Bart.
Your admission that "...the majority of them all read the same." is also an admission that there are some that do not "read the same". This means that you can't know for sure which manuscripts are the correct ones. Correctness is never determined by either majority or minority vote. Bart admits this truth while James denies it. Please send me the url of the debate you reference. Thanks & have a blessed evening and a new week.
Eugene, you seem like a decent guy. And although the beard may be for health reasons, it's still mighty impressive. However, when I read the exchanges between you and other believers, it reminds me of how the Lilliputians had a fierce conflict between the 'Big Endians' and the 'Little Endians' (ie. which end of the boiled egg should be opened with your knife).
The problem with Christianity is that it's not a simple dispute between two groups. If only it was as simple as the one which conflicted Lilliput!
No, its a religion of 10,001 variations - each (natch) claiming to be the sole guardians of the so-called truth. Hence they are incapable of being swayed by arguments, however logical they may be. It just goes to show the power of indoctrination. As the Jesuits correctly pointed out ' Give us a child until the age of seven and we will give you the man'.
Of course you'd have thought that an all-seeing, all-powerful deity would have at least managed to ensure that arguments between believers were unnecessary. After all, how hard is it to write clearly? How hard was it for the Christian' god to ensure his alleged holy words were not open to countless interpretations? Answer: too hard for Yahweh.
Sadly, when it comes to this god, although he finds knocking out a universe in six days easy-peasy, he clearly he hasn't quite quite got the hang of spelling out things in simple, clear and direct language. Never cracked it. However, to be fair to him, Allah has the same problem.
The point of my post? Simply that you are wasting your breath. You believe what you want and kids like preto will believe what they want. Logic and rational argument don't work when it comes to religion.
Me? I am an atheist of more than 40 years standing, so obviously I think you are all wrong and that Christianity is delusional bullshit. But believers are no more going to listen to me than they are other Christians who think that the egg should be opened from a different end.
But I suppose Christianity - no matter the variant people subscribe to -
keeps everyone happy, comes with a free invisible friend and provides 'pie in the sky ie. the hope that death is not the end and that they will still be around in 100,000 billion trillion zillion years from now.
Me? At the age of nearly 72, all I have to look forward to is - at best - a few more years of increasing infirmity and then an eternal sleep.
Being a realist, that's the BEST I can hope for - the worst, of course, being Yahweh getting medieval on my ass for all eternity (but I am sure he will do it in a most loving way).
Hello John Craske, Eugene here. Thank you for such a wonderfully honest letter. So you're 72, I had my 75th last Saturday, 4/29/42.
There are a growing number of religious people that are revising their beliefs because they are learning that there are different ways to understand things that heretofore they never heard of. Some, a few I think, are deciding to be agnostic and/or atheist. Some atheists are becoming theists.
Just look at Dr. Bart Ehrman, what a radical change. I agree with most of his scholarly work but we part company when it comes to what we do with those truths.
Many who leave the Christian faith make the same error as the person who hates mangoes because the ones they ate tasted awful. What they did not realize was that the mangoes they were given were not ripe. The "christianity" many/most people are given is distasteful and almost impossible to swallow and digest. The only way they are able to keep at it, is because, like bitter medicine they believe they must take it or suffer the dire consequences.
What I have discovered is that there are "ripe mangoes" and they taste good and that there is a way to understand Christianity that is as sweet as honey in the comb.
As to your future I would say that your last comment, " I am sure he will do it in a most loving way" is exactly what true Christianity and scripture teaches. That rules out eternal unbearable roasting over a fire that will never burn up what it burns. No where in scripture is that taught. There is a difference between the noun, punishment and the verb, punishing. In the bible, the punishment is destruction and is forever while the punishing has a beginning and an end.
Would you consider looking at Christianity from a logical and reasonable perspective? Maybe just for educational purposes?
The concept of the "Trinity" took several hundred years to fully develop and so was not added by any single person in particular.
The three "persons" who make up the modern orthodox Christian version of the Trinity (there are still branches of Christianity which don't accept the orthodox formulation) are all mentioned in some way in the New Testament. What was bitterly disputed for centuries was whether they were connected as a Godhead at all and, if so, how. There were early forms of Christianity which wholly rejected the idea that Jesus was God at all and insisted on a more traditionally Jewish conception of the Messiah as simply a man ordained and anointed by God or perhaps as a heavenly or angelic being sent by God in human form. This form of Christianity, preached by the Ebionites, Nazoraeans and some others survived into at least the Fourth Century. Some were reverting to a more Jewish conception of the Messiah but it is believed by many modern scholars that the Ebionities' claim to be descended from relatives of Jesus and therefore to be the original form of the Jesus sect has merit.
By the Second Century, however, the idea that Jesus was in some sense divine had well and truly taken hold in gentile Christianity. The main dispute then became in what sense he was divine. Adoptionists believed that Jesus was divine but that he only became so at his baptism. So they accepted that he is God but believed that he was not always so and that he was therefore not fully equal with God. The fact that the Gospel of Mark indicates Jesus' baptism as the point where he became the Messiah and that several passages in Paul's epistles indicate Paul believed Jesus became God's anointed at his resurrection gave the proponents of this view some scriptural basis.
Over the next two centuries various forms of Modalism developed, arguing that God could only ever be one and so the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could only be "aspects" or "masks" of the unity that is God as perceived by the observer/believer and not separate beings in any sense. Then there was Arianism, which accepted that the Son was divine but "proceeded from the Father", so he was not eternal and co-equal with him.
The poor relation in all versions of the Trinity and debates about it is the "Holy Spirit". In Judaism, the רוח הקודש or "ruach ha-kodesh" was the divine property of prophecy and wisdom and therefore the active element of Yahweh in the world. It's in this purely Jewish sense that most of the references to this "holy spirit" of Yahweh in the New Testament are meant - 2Corinthians 13:14 only looks like a Trinitarian formula now; no Jew of Paul's time would have interpreted it that way at all or would have even dreamed of doing so (ditto for Matt 28:19). Once Christianity drifted from its Jewish roots, however, the subtle distinction between an active aspect of God in the world and another form and then eventual a "person" of God quickly became blurry and was lost altogether.
By the Second Century the idea that there was, in some sense, a Trinity was dominant and other conceptions of Christianity were being marginalised and dismissed as "heresies". But there still followed several centuries of struggle over which of the competing conceptions of this Trinity was "correct". After Constantine legalised Christianity in 312 AD he was not pleased that his new faith was riven with divisions, so he called the Council of Nicea to settle the disputes over the nature of the Trinity. The Orthodox view won out over its then main rival, Arianism. But Arianism then got the support of several of Constantine's successors and staged a comeback. Even after Arianism was finally marginalised, non-Arian Christianity was then divided again, this time over the question of whether Jesus had one divine nature (Monophysitism) or a human and divine nature at the same time (the Chalcedonian position). Disputes over this and similar variations on Trinitiarian doctrines continued for centuries and often resulted in schisms and, occasionally, persecutions.
What is perfectly clear is that the whole idea of a Trinity evolved over centuries and what has emerged as the "orthodox" position held by most Christian churches today did so more as a result of luck, violent debate, imperial power and occasionally violence, conflict and torture. Claims made by modern conservative Christians that the orthodox position is somehow "clearly" the right one are undermined by this history of conflict and violence - if it was so "clear" there would not have been this whelter of disputes and conflicting positions.
For a good introduction to the varied forms of early Christianity and the earlier Trinitarian positions see Bart Ehrman Lost Christanities: The Battle for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew and for the later disputes see Richard E. Rubenstein When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity in the Last Days of Rome.
As for "explaining it" and the "need" for Jesus or the Holy Spirit, only a believer in these odd concepts can do that - I can't. I'd say the reason the whole concept has such a history of conflict and dispute and is so theologically incoherent is that it evolved out of a jumble of inconsistent ideas and traditions to begin with. It seems incoherent because it is.
@OTO TAKE Haven't seen it anywhere in the Old Testament. The Shema Yisrael is there and it says otherwise.
@OTO TAKE I'm not blind so do not assume. Nowhere in the Old Testament was the concept ever recognized. I've read the OT 18+ times and never seen it. Especially the fact that the Sh'ma Yisreal was in use as well as prophets being under Shalich Principle. God himself also made his own testimony in Joel 2.
@OTO TAKE Also don't add to the text. It's disrespectful to God's Law (Deuteronomy 4 : 2)
Hebrews 1:8 {the Father calls Jesus God}
But unto the Son he {God } saith,
Thy throne, O God {Theos}, is, forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
The Holy Spirit applies this to Jesus in (Hebrews) and to The Father in (Psalm 45:6).
Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, will last, forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 {Holy Spirit said worship only God.}
"You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. “You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,
Luke 4:8 {Jesus reminds satan only God is to be worshiped}
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve.
Hebrews 1:6 {the Father tells the angels to worship Jesus}
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world he {God} saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Daniel 7:13-14, (The Father decrees all will worship him)
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Matthew 28:17 {Apostles worship Jesus} Luke 24:52
And when they saw him, they worshiped him:
And they worshiped him.
John 20:28, 29 {Thomas calls Jesus God}{ o Kurios mou kai o Theos mou } the definite article.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου
…..Does Jesus correct Thomas? No, he calls him blessed.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Romans 9:5 {The Holy Spirit thru Paul calls Jesus GOD}
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen…NIV
I Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Titus 2:13 Titus 3:4-7
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior
Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man:
John 1:1, 2,3,14 {The Holy Spirit thru John calls Jesus God}
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word .
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai theos en ho Logos
He was in [the] beginning with God.
All things through him came into being, and without him came into being not even one [thing] which has come into being.
And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us,
John 1:9-10
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Acts 20:28 {The Holy Spirit thru Luke calls Jesus God}
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
2 Peter 1:1 {The Holy Spirit thru Peter calls Jesus God}
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11
"for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.,"
2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first,"
2 Peter 3:18
"but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen,"
Jude 4,5 (The Holy Spirit thru Jude calls Jesus God)
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Isaiah 7:14 {The Holy Spirit thru the prophets calls Jesus God}
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 (The Holy Spirit thru Matthew defines the name Immanuel, Jesus is GOD}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Revelation 1:8, 22:13, 16 (Jesus claims to be GOD)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end the first and the last…
I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
Matthew 4:7 (after satan tempts Jesus, Jesus states)
Jesus said to him again, 'It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'
Exodus 3:13-14 (the Father states he is I AM THAT I AM)
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, what is his name? What shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 10:30-36 {John states Jesus said he is I AM}
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
And Yet God is one
Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all ? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel;
The Lord our God is one Lord:
Deuteronomy 5:7
You shall have no other gods before me.
So who is HE?
th-cam.com/video/2OoUvneyE5Q/w-d-xo.html
Psalm 119:18
Open my eyes to see wonderful things in your Word.
In His service,
Isaiah 42:8 48:11-12 {God will never give his glory}
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, and I will not give my glory unto another. I am he; I am the first, I also am the Last.
Revelation 1: 8 (He is the first and the last the beginning and the end the Alpha and Omega)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was and which is to come, the Almighty.
Philippians 2:5-7 {of what did he empty himself}
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation (emptied), and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man:
{The Greek reads as follows}
Who in form of God subsisting not rapinesteemed it to be equal with god;
John 14:28 {Jesus in human form occupies a lower position then the Father}
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'"
Hebrews 2:9 {Jesus Humbled himself while walking among us}
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone
Galatians 4:4 {Jesus is born as a human}
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
until that time he assumed his correct position in heaven.
John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.”
Colossians 1:19 {Yet he was still GOD}
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily.,
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς Θεότητος σωματικῶς
…This indicates most unequivocally the full divinity of Jesus Christ, for neither any man, even the godliest one, nor any angel, even the highest in angelic hierarchy can contain the "fullness" or "entirety" of Divinity. There is no human word that embodies the very essence of the Divine Being which dwells in Jesus.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
To behold Jesus was to see GOD
John 17:5 {God gives Jesus his glory back} {of his right to exercise his deity}
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Matthew 28:18 {which he takes up after the resurrection}
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power {authority} is given (surrendered) unto me in heaven and in earth.
Revelation 1: 11-14, 22:13, 16 {Jesus assumes his correct position as GOD}
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: …
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;…
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End the First and the Last…
>> have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
Revelation 1:17-18 {the Holy Spirit thru John states Jesus is the First and the Last?}
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, fear not; I am the first and last:
I am he that liveth, and was…………….. Dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, A-men; and have the keys of hell and of death
John 1:1, 2,3,14 {The Holy Spirit states Jesus is God}
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word .
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai theos en ho Logos
And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us,
Matthew 1:23 (The Holy Spirit thru Matthew calls Jesus GOD}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 7:14 {The Holy Spirit calls Jesus God}
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
…..When did the First and the Last (GOD), the Beginning and the End (GOD), the Alpha and Omega (GOD) taste death?
Matthew 26:53 (Jesus was obedient to what was prophesied)
Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”…
Daniel 7:13-14, (Daniel saw the Son of Man approaching the Father)
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, . His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 {Holy Spirit said worship only God.}
"You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. “You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,
Luke 4:8 {Jesus reminds satan only God is to be worshiped}
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve.
th-cam.com/video/2OoUvneyE5Q/w-d-xo.html
And Yet God is one
Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all ? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel;
The Lord our God is one Lord:
Psalm 119:18
Open my eyes to see wonderful things in your Word.
In His Service,
people in modern civilisation n intelect being fooled by paul
@@MichaelTheophilus906 read...read ...n read.God will explain to u if u really want to know the truth.how will u see the truth if u close yr heart and yr eyes? God gives us brain/minds to think n not to follow whatever people say.
“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).’ But there is no llaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them”
[al-Maa’idah 5:73]. Quran
yeah ...Jesus = Super Man = Myth , Yahweh = Hulk = Myth but wait a minute...Allah who is also Humpty Dumpty is THE REAL GOD ...yeah yeah AL LAH (THE GOD)...woopty doo ...and if you don't believe in him ...he's gonna cremate you....hummmm...........lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Allah is a moon god, the good of war. End of report. Think about it... Please!!!
@@philliptribur5785 the moon and war idol lies have been debunked thousands of time. Allah is God. You find El, Elohim, Eloah, and Alaha in the Hebrew and Aramaic books of the bible, all of which are linguistically related to Allah who as al-Ilāh (i.e The God).
Allah is One.
Allah the Only One.
He never begets
And never was begotten
And there is nothing like Him
@@rainbow0027 My auto-correct screws up my sentences and I am not surprised it says this. You know what I meant. I would change it from now. Barak Allahu fikum.
A M I’d like you to make that remark to all the Christian Arabs of the world. You idiot!
Jesus never referred to God as Yahweh as you claim. He spoke Aramaic and called God
Alaha you moron
He did a decent job of describing a brief history of the outworking of the theology (though he describes it through the lens of basic 19th century historicism).
He, however, did his typical thing where he simultaneously attributes thoughts to the New Testament and its writers that aren’t there while also straw-manning the final theological understanding (he’s not a theologian). He doesn’t seem to have much of an understanding of how theology developed through the ages other than as some accident of history (in which case, he shouldn’t limit his cynicism to theology but apply it to his own intellectual heritage, as well).
The actual story is much more interesting and beautiful. There is a logical procession of the theological developments. Similar to the development of scientific theories.
sadly your comment won’t get more likes and brr trinity bad!!
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed- Galathians 1: 9.
*Bible says God's law and Jesus is a curse
*
13 Christ redeemed us from the *curse of the law* by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”(Galatians 3:13)
Bart is the true Christian.... Make more Sense than multi millionaire preacher's
*heretic
tHAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUTH IN YOU OR HIM.
@@garystanfield2274 n u still don't know what is truth🤣🤣
@@eliasasitetsoangami7497 i WILL TELL YOU TRUTH FOR ONE, THE BIRTH GIVEN NAME WAS IMMANUEL NOT JESUS, THAT YAHWEH IS THE MESSIAH'S NAME. IMMANUEL DID NOT DIE ON A CROSS AND NO NAILS WERE USED. HE DIED ON A REAL LIVE OLIVE TREE ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, BOUND WITH ROPE ON HIS WRISTS, THE OTHER TWO WERE HUNG ON THE SAME TREE NOT THREE DIFFERENT ONES. HE DIED ACCORDING TO jEWISH LAW NOT ROMAN LAW. NOW IF YOU CARE TO LEARN MORE REAL TRUTH LET ME KNOW OR KEEP LISTENING TO THIS LYING DECEIVER THAT KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURES.
@@eliasasitetsoangami7497 So how is your pagan name Jesus Christ helping you?
Why is it most christian feel so hard to admit Jesus is human and god is god.
Jesus claimed to be God. He said before Abraham was I AM. The jews did not cal God G-O-D they called him Yahweh which means I AM. No misunderstanding on the jews part they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy
They stoned God ? And then they
killed God ? Ur soo stupid may God forgive u.... God is way above all of this. Please do a favor To humanity and use your brain for once.
steel framer
Lol let's look at the sentence: "Before Abraham was *I AM* " Jesus said before Abraham, God was, not he. Jesus' original name was Eashou (spoken through his original language- Aramaic) and not Yahweh or any other. Jews proclaimed him Yahweh. Jesus prayed to his Lord too. Why would God pray to himself?! Jesus fell on his face and prayed.
Imran Hafiz
All Chritains accept Jesus was human. If he had not taken that form, He could not had paid our ransome.
JEUS CHRIST IS GOD
They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consistent with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Everyone in the heavens and the earth must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant. Quran 19:88-93
Nope.
Here is how the first century believers viewed Jesus. It's shocking.
and untold.The Catholic Church invented the trinity doctrine in 325AD. No wonder why the CAtholic Church confiscated the Bible so that nobody could read it but just obey the authority of Rome, The CAtholic Church wanted to keep the world ignorant of the truth and deceived by their trinity doctrine.
th-cam.com/video/D7cnc1QBWg0/w-d-xo.html
@@paulczubryt8644?
Good job again
Although I am not necessarily endorsing the doctrine of the Trinity, Yeshua said in John chapter 8 - before Abraham was I am, in John 16 verse 28 he said that he came from The father and he’s going back to the father, also on John eight verse 42 he said he came forth from God and was sent by God, these are all statements by the Messiah that he was in fact pre-existing, before being born in Bethlehem.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor,............
No one called Jesus by them names.
There are many times in NT where Jesus defers to the father, exactly like he is in subservience of him. He is also constantly praying to God the father, which again puts Jesus in the subservient role. The simple fact that he is called “Son Of God” inherently gives the impression that h is the Junior. So, how would a trinitarian clear this up for me?
They wont they will just say its a mystery just blindly follow it?
My channel debunks Christianity and that pagan Trinity
Let me see if I can help you understand John 1:1 to show that "the word" is not another "person".
I stand by my word - Is this me or someone standing beside me?
You have my word - Is this my words or is this someone else?
He gave me his word - Is this someone giving me another person?
2:11-6:43 sounds like some of the best stand-up ever
Very interesting!
Interesting and deadly...
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
@Produce Your Evidence
It is interesting to me that One and Only God believers, ignore the fact that subtracting from what is written in the Revelation, results in having GOD REMOVE THEIR NAME FROM HIS BOOK OF LIFE.
Rev. 22:19
NO ETERNAL LIFE!!
God who does that IS JESUS!
Rev. 3:5
God who removes YOUR NAME FROM HIS BOOK OF LIFE is JESUS!
Rev. 21:27
Have a nice day.
Who knows how many you have left.
If you even try to put the term "trinity" into logic, logic itself feels ashamed of it.
@Mansoor Ahmad I have already watched most of his lectures on trinity or New Testament available on TH-cam
It's a proof that people who are strongly believing are taught to take as truth even things which don't make sense, when it comes from an authority. And they are also taught that authority is always right even when logic says no. This is the reason why strongly conservative and religious voters are much more prone to support autocrats and fascism.
I like that, if you think you understand the trinity then you don't understand it. I admit, I don't understand it. As an engineer with a degree in mathematics I do understand that three is not one and one is not three.
It is simple, Jesus, peace be upon him, was Prophet of God.
Germanica Bosniaca Jesus was Prophet of God but he was not only a Prophet, he was the Divine Word became Flesh.
Q : Who is God?
Christian : Jesus
Q : Is Jesus the son of Mary.
Christian : Yes
Q : Who created Mary?
Christian : God.
Q : Who is God?
Christian: Jesus
Q : Jesus is the begotten son.
Christian : Yes
Q : Who is his father?
Christian : God.
Q : Who is God?
Christian : Jesus.
Q : Jesus is a servant of God.
Christian : Yes
Q : Jesus died on the cross?
Christian : Yes
Q : Who resurrected him?
Christian : God.
Q : Is Jesus a messenger.
Christian : Yes
Q : Who sent him?
Christian : God.
Q : Who is God?
Christian : Jesus.
Q: Did Jesus worship while on earth.
Christian: Yes
Q: Whom did he worship?
Christian: God.
Q : Who is God?
Christian : Jesus.
Q : Did God have a beginning?
Christian : No
Q: Then who was born on 25/DEC?
Christian : Jesus.
Muslim : Is Jesus God.
Christian : Yes
Q : Where's God?
Christian : In heaven.
Q : How many Gods are there in heaven?
Christian : Only one God.
Q : Where's Jesus?
Christian : He is seated on the right hand of his father.
Q : Then how many are they in heaven?
Christian : Only one God.
Q : Then how many seats?
Christian : one
Q : where's Jesus?
Christian: Seated next to God.
Q : How are they seated on one chair?
Christian : Its only understood by those with the Ghost.You need Ghost my friend.
RIP Christianity..
JESUS IS GOD
@@plasticmoon222 NO
The Father,Son and Holy Spirit are God ,,,he who does not believe
this is unfaithful and will not inherit the kingdom of God,,,its not a very
complex thing to understand,,everybody must make their choice,,,its Follow God or Follow people that talk against God and his existence
God bless Bart Ehrman. I have three books written by Mr. Ehrman and I learned a lot.
Are you sure you don't have one book by Dr. Ehrman?
Dr. Ehrman is an atheist though
@@succulentsfun Yes, but I am not.
@@joelukule-lee2982 Good to know, God bless you ❤ Just hope that you don't have to build your theology upon an atheist's interpretation of the Gospel.
@@succulentsfun Thank you. The Holy Scriptures are the word of God. The atheist asks why God allows so much suffering in the world. Christians must be able to answer this question...
Bart Ehrman burst the Christians bubbles.
qul u allahu ahad Surah 112 ayat 1
Who do I follow.....Ehrman or Jesus, Jesus or Ehrman.....hmmmmm...... I CHOOSE JESUS - the SON OF GOD.
JKiwi
JESUS never taught any Trinity...we know how it all happens. Unfortunately for you Christians mystery replaces history.
Julio Kosters your correct, you will not find trinity in the bible.
What churches do is work out out doctrine then search for verses to back up the doctrine. The point is that you can always find scripture to make things fit.
"We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen."
--- Nicene Creed, A.D. 325
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
Please someone help me understand what Malachi 3:1 means?
I wonder if the Greek Fates (composed of three) somehow also led to the Holy Trinity doctrine?
“I myself am the LORD. Besides me, there is no savior.” Isaiah 43:11
Yet....Jesus is the Savior of the world? (John 3:16, Matthew 1:21) lol
#QUOTEFAIL
For heaven's sake! Read entire chapters, guys. There is a whole/consistent/ concept being taught throughout scripture. Jesus' reference in John 3:16 is stated in context for all of chapter 3 as he addresses Nicodemus (a Jewish rabbi/scholar). Jesus' is teaching Nicodemus the Messiah's work is intended for people from EVERY RACE of mankind. Not just Jews and NOT EVERYONE! Jesus had to enlighten/inform/correct Nicodemus due to his many misunderstandings of the Messiah - which was (and still IS) a problem.
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated...God hardens whomever he wills." Rom.9:13,18
"...in Gilgal I began to hate them....I will love them no more...I will put their beloved children to death." Hosea 9:15,16
"Do not spare them but kill both man and woman, child and infant..." I Samuel 15:3
redmotherfive amen. Only one God.
@@aliceliddell1157 Jesus said I am only for the lost sheep israel, and isiah 42 says the final Prophet to the whole world is form Arabia and Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings on him!
Ibn Kathīr:
*" if ten Christians meet, they would end up with eleven sects! "*
I started agreeing with the first statements made by Bart. Then he stated that the Apostle John had a different view (the incarnate Christ), by using John 1:1. Dear Bart is a ball of confusion. The "Logos" in this passage simply means "word" and nothing else. See Strong's Greek Concordance #3056. Bart is simply repeating the errors made by most Trinitarians. This is not the view of all Christians.
Why doesn't Jesus correct the people holding the the wrong views..... especially since he has a "personal relationship" with them...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In Greek: 1 Ἐν (In) ἀρχῇ (beginning) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) Λόγος (Word) καὶ (and) ὁ (the) Λόγος (Word) ἦν (was) πρὸς (with) τὸν (of) Θεόν (God) καὶ (and) Θεὸς (God) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) Λόγος (Word). No ambiguities here. God is the Logos.
Logos means word or reason, Attempting to identify Jesus with the Logos is ridiculous. The Logos is a concept that was stolen from Greek philosophy. It was however modified to try to make it fit into a JudaoChristian framework thus producing all the absurdities that we see now.
@@tomgoff7887
Yes, you are 100% right!
How come christians pray to god and jesus but nobody prays to the holy ghost
if you put 5 humen and 3 animals in a room and i ask you how many humen in this room ? what is your answer ? :) is your answer 1 humen or 5 humen ? even the child will answer it correctly . the second problem its modalism
John 20:17
Jesus said, 'I am ascending to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER,
to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.'"
GOD has a GOD !
PLEASE use your brain that god gave us.
Hello Borg.
Gospel of john written after the gospel of luke,matthew and mark. the three gospel before john never write about john 20:17.
@@danialm8122 so are you saying John 20:17 is fabricated?
@gherrrie who says God can do everything..,?
1) Can God die..?
2) Can God create another uncreated ..?(the minute he does he is not uncreated by himself)
3) Can God throw me out of his kingdom (out of his reach)..?
4) Can God create another God almighty like himself..?
Expect only Godly things from God don't just excuse urself from using ur intellect by saying god can do everything..
Can u explain trinity to 5 year old..?
Or the following
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 New International Version (NIV)
11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
OR
Genesis 38:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother
Jeremiah 17:23 |
But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
I’m confused by Ehrmans last statement. He says the early Christians believed Christ was exalted by God but was subordinate, yet the Gospel of John clearly contradicts this with “in the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. How do you square the two?
actuary 1776 yes EARLY CHRISTIANS. gospel of John was written in 90-95AD or later
Asad Raza Seems like we are approaching the realm of semantics. Mark is touted as evidence of the views of the earliest Christians, yet wasn’t written until the mid 50s. So they are “early” Christians but John (anywhere from 30-50 years later) isn’t? Christians views on the divinity of Christ were undoubtedly in flux from the start, but I think it’s misleading to say early Christians didn’t believe in his divinity. This isn’t theology that developed centuries later far removed from 1st century Palestine.
Hello Bart Ehrman, Eugene here. I respect and admire you and your work because I believe that you are motivated by the love of/for truth. I hope you are not finished with your search although you have taken time out to teach what you have so far discovered. You rightly reject falsehoods and I am so glad that you share those insights but now you must not abandon the search for that which will replace those falsehoods. It is not enough to learn that 1+1+1 is not 1, one must learn that the true answer is 3. As you enrich us may you be also enriched. Your friend from a distance, Eugene.
From the looks of your hairy face i believe you must be one very wise man
Eugene Lanzl what religion are if you don't mind me asking?
Hello Krista Allen, I consider myself to be a strict Biblical Monotheist. Jesus' God and Heavenly Father is my God and my Heavenly Father. God has no God or Father.
@@originalhigene I wish all the Christians would be like you Eugene sir. I wish they would follow Jesus Christ instead of other people.
A blind guiding another blind. How sad! God is one not in quantity but in unity. Just like husband and wife are one. Please research the Hebrew word for -one-.
When the Christians are taken up on the issue of trinity and crucifixion, u will see a well learned person finding it difficult to understand simple English. When truth is missing a professor of English can be like a child
It’s actually wonderful how logic goes out the window.
So basically the priests made so many different rules that they couldnt make sense of their dogma anymore so they gave up and said" nobody can understand god, so god can make no sense "
Bart speech tells that he is near to the kingdom🤗😇
he is an atheist lol
Jesus had time to explain the trinity here on earth, after his resurrection. He didn't because it's not true.
Seem reasonable and well said….
Thank God for the truth
Which everyone thinks they have, 😂😂😂
Hey mr i have not understand which side do you stand here.
Thank you so much !
There is also some kind of trinity in pagan religion. For example, Zeus, Jupiter, and Thor are the same god, under different names.
***** Really? i thought that 666 represented the emperor Caligula.
Nope 666 is Solomon.
Quran 4:171
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
that is totally not related and not true.
Zeus, Jupiter, and Thor are all based on the same Indo-European sky god (Dyeus-phter) but that's not a trinity. A trinity is a godhead with three identities within the same belief system. The closest equivalent would be the Hindu Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva tri-divinity.
Whew! It takes so much work over centuries to make your own gods.
Jesus made it simple. There is one and only one God, his Father and our Father in heaven.
You mean this Jesus?
Hebrews 1:8 {the Father calls Jesus God}
But unto the Son he {God } saith,
Thy throne, O God {Theos}, is, forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
The Holy Spirit applies this to Jesus in (Hebrews) and to The Father in (Psalm 45:6).
Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, will last, forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 {Holy Spirit said worship only God.}
"You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. “You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,
Luke 4:8 {Jesus reminds satan only God is to be worshiped}
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve.
Hebrews 1:6 {the Father tells the angels to worship Jesus}
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world he {God} saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Daniel 7:13-14, (The Father decrees all will worship him)
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Matthew 28:17 {Apostles worship Jesus} Luke 24:52
And when they saw him, they worshiped him:
And they worshiped him.
John 20:28, 29 {Thomas calls Jesus God}{ o Kurios mou kai o Theos mou } the definite article.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου
…..Does Jesus correct Thomas? No, he calls him blessed.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Romans 9:5 {The Holy Spirit thru Paul calls Jesus GOD}
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen…NIV
I Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Titus 2:13 Titus 3:4-7
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior
Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man:
John 1:1, 2,3,14 {The Holy Spirit thru John calls Jesus God}
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word .
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai theos en ho Logos
He was in [the] beginning with God.
All things through him came into being, and without him came into being not even one [thing] which has come into being.
And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us,
John 1:9-10
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Acts 20:28 {The Holy Spirit thru Luke calls Jesus God}
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
2 Peter 1:1 {The Holy Spirit thru Peter calls Jesus God}
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11
"for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.,"
2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first,"
2 Peter 3:18
"but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen,"
Jude 4,5 (The Holy Spirit thru Jude calls Jesus God)
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Isaiah 7:14 {The Holy Spirit thru the prophets calls Jesus God}
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 (The Holy Spirit thru Matthew defines the name Immanuel, Jesus is GOD}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Revelation 1:8, 22:13, 16 (Jesus claims to be GOD)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end the first and the last…
I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
Matthew 4:7 (after satan tempts Jesus, Jesus states)
Jesus said to him again, 'It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'
Exodus 3:13-14 (the Father states he is I AM THAT I AM)
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, what is his name? What shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 10:30-36 {John states Jesus said he is I AM}
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
And Yet God is one
Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all ? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel;
The Lord our God is one Lord:
Deuteronomy 5:7
You shall have no other gods before me.
So who is HE?
th-cam.com/video/2OoUvneyE5Q/w-d-xo.html
Psalm 119:18
Open my eyes to see wonderful things in your Word.
In His service,
@@canderssonswedican7486 You may want to gain an education in Greek and develop some reading comprehension skills before assuming that Jesus had no God above him.
Jezebel's gods were triune.
Isaiah 42:8 48:11-12 {God will never give his glory}
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, and I will not give my glory unto another. I am he; I am the first, I also am the Last.
Revelation 1: 8 (He is the first and the last the beginning and the end the Alpha and Omega)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was and which is to come, the Almighty.
Philippians 2:5-7 {of what did he empty himself}
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation (emptied), and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man:
{The Greek reads as follows}
Who in form of God subsisting not rapinesteemed it to be equal with god;
John 14:28 {Jesus in human form occupies a lower position then the Father}
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'"
Hebrews 2:9 {Jesus Humbled himself while walking among us}
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone
Galatians 4:4 {Jesus is born as a human}
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
until that time he assumed his correct position in heaven.
John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.”
Colossians 1:19 {Yet he was still GOD}
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily.,
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς Θεότητος σωματικῶς
…This indicates most unequivocally the full divinity of Jesus Christ, for neither any man, even the godliest one, nor any angel, even the highest in angelic hierarchy can contain the "fullness" or "entirety" of Divinity. There is no human word that embodies the very essence of the Divine Being which dwells in Jesus.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
To behold Jesus was to see GOD
John 17:5 {God gives Jesus his glory back} {of his right to exercise his deity}
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Matthew 28:18 {which he takes up after the resurrection}
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power {authority} is given (surrendered) unto me in heaven and in earth.
Revelation 1: 11-14, 22:13, 16 {Jesus assumes his correct position as GOD}
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: …
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;…
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End the First and the Last…
>> have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
Revelation 1:17-18 {the Holy Spirit thru John states Jesus is the First and the Last?}
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, fear not; I am the first and last:
I am he that liveth, and was…………….. Dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, A-men; and have the keys of hell and of death
John 1:1, 2,3,14 {The Holy Spirit states Jesus is God}
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word .
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai theos en ho Logos
And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us,
Matthew 1:23 (The Holy Spirit thru Matthew calls Jesus GOD}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 7:14 {The Holy Spirit calls Jesus God}
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
…..When did the First and the Last (GOD), the Beginning and the End (GOD), the Alpha and Omega (GOD) taste death?
Matthew 26:53 (Jesus was obedient to what was prophesied)
Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”…
Daniel 7:13-14, (Daniel saw the Son of Man approaching the Father)
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, . His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 {Holy Spirit said worship only God.}
"You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. “You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you,
Luke 4:8 {Jesus reminds satan only God is to be worshiped}
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve.
th-cam.com/video/2OoUvneyE5Q/w-d-xo.html
And Yet God is one
Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all ? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel;
The Lord our God is one Lord:
Psalm 119:18
Open my eyes to see wonderful things in your Word.
In His Service,
Lets see how profound your understanding is, please tell me who raised Jesus from the dead.
@@canderssonswedican7486 The Bible says that God raised Jesus by the power He gave to him.
If you feel that Jezebel need to turn Jesus into your golden calf, read Exodus and see how that worked out.
Shalom
Hallelu YH
In Carnation or manifestation is never explained so well before.
Thank you
Bless you
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
Christianity is a lifestyle of love, forgiveness , doing to others as you would have them done to you, etc. It is not a a religion of believing in doctrines, theologies, etc.
'You will not find this doctrine in the New Testament'.
What about Matthew 28. 19 'Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit' and 2 Corinthians 13,13. 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen'?
The whole New Testament from start to finish is full of the Trinity. And the incarnation is there as plain as the nose on your face in Matthew and Luke.
+Tony Foreman That doesn't teach the Trinity belief. Remember the Trinity belief is a 3in1 idea.
Peace
+Yahya Snow The Trinity is only secondarily an idea it is primarily a reality and is presented as such throughout the New Testament.
That verse was added centuries later and not in the original manuscripts. Bart discusses this.
+Timothy Gibney There is no textual evidence for the omission of Matt 29 19 from the original mss. What is more the verse is quoted by 2nd and 3rd century works: The Dilache, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian.
+Tony Foreman I think you may want to research that? Almost all biblical scholars agree on that being a forgery for theological reasons with that.
last nail in the coffin for the Trinity
Fir Las false Bart Ehrman just don't understand, he does not reached to that level of understanding.
The last nail in the coffin is the 'Islamic Trinity' which is Allah, Muhammad & Jibril. It takes all 3 to make it work as 1.
According to you...you don't see clearly. 1 Corinthians 13:12.
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
@Irish Lad Yes Jesus, the Lamb of God died on the cross.
I will tell you in advance, you're going nowhere with this, but to your eternal death, if you persist.
Here's why...
In Revelation 22:19 the Holy Prophet Jesus sent says that if you subtract from what he or Jesus or the Prophet John or the Holy Spirit has told you in the Revelation, GOD will remove your name from His Book of Life.
No eternal life for you.
That's where you're headed, pal, unless you repent.
And you say what does that have to do with Jesus dying on the cross?
Pay attention.
Turns out that GOD who removes your name from His book of life is Jesus, the Lamb of GOD, that died on the cross! Rev. 3:5.
That's enough right there to condemn you to eternal death, but lets' keep going.
The book of life IS Jesus', the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE, that died on the cross, God's book of life! Rev. 21:27.
It always puzzles me as to how seemingly intelligent people, like yourself, will persist in the face of comments coming from Jesus and 2 of God's Holy Prophets telling you Jesus is God, still don't get it!!!
And then I remember, you have an unseen highly intelligent being, whispering in your ear.
His name is SATAN!!
This is no joke. This is an eternal life or no eternal life debate!!!
@Irish Lad
Yeah my God and God of all the Holy Prophets. My God lives forever.
Your God dies forever.
Have a nice day.
how about the 3 musketeers - all for one and one for all. Is that trinity or unity?
And every man for himself.
The three stooges.
but how do you account for the road to Emmaus?
I'm in no particular religion but I do agree with the Muslims on one thing there's only one God he has no partner and no nothing Shares his power Jesus Christ was a great prophet and a great instrument of God but not God himself there's only one God and there's nothing like him
You should really look for a better role-model as "great prophet", and not someone who wasn't condemning genocidal ideas and slavery.
El Groto I don't know what you talking about role model believing in one God is a great thing the guy said that I'm not in no particular religion but I believe in the Oneness of God is better than believing in the book that was change from its original manuscript you don't even know the origins of any religion or the Bible you don't know or have any idea what your follower in or where it came from you just going by what you been told you have no knowledge
I know the origin of the Bible - it was written by original fantasy writers. I have no knowledge because I refuse to believe in something that literally has 0 proof? Nice.
" you don't even know the origins of any religion" - really? Most of them were created by power-hungry assholes to control ignorant masses. If you take into account mormons or scientologists - then we can even say from which asshole that bullshit came out of.
Sean Fitzpatrick;
You are quite write.
Scrubbing away all of what hate mongores say about Islam here is what we Muslims believe:
Yes Allah the creator is one. He has no partner.
He is everlasting, indivisible, contiguous, all to encompassing, the originater of everything, the One of utmost power, the one of compounded Mercy and grace..
He caused this highly improbable universe to exist.
He created all soles, some with freedom of choice, some to only serve a specific purpose. He created us as Holly soles, which need to be perculated in order to exist in the proximity of His presence in the higher plains of Eden.
This universe will be destroyed, and there will only remain higher Edens and a black hole type Hell.
Allah created Adam and brought to life all of his offsprings before the descent to Earth. Put these soles to the test of accepting the challenge of ascending their existance to the higher plains of Eden. Under the condition of being tested in their faith during a short life on Earth. Also the condition of taking an oath to never betray Allah during their time in the lower plains of existance.
The first sin of Adam was only a necessary step in order that Adam would willingly lose his Grace. He and his wife. So that both are descended down to earth.
Allah Almighty does not hold a grudge against Adam and his faithful wife.
They are both completely forgiven for transgressing on the forbidden tree.
And so are all of their children who actually have no call or control over their parents sin.
So we Muslims do not believe in "Original Sin".
There is no such concept in Islam.
A sin is what we commit during this life time. We will be judged in the day of judgement one by one. Sins erode our soles and cause them to sink into the deep crators of the black hole of hell.
Hell is a hole that can not be filled.
We get red of our sins simply by repentance and asking forgiveness from Allah who would gladly give it to us as he tells us that he is overwhelmingly happy when a one of his servants returns to him and asks him for redemption and absolution.
No blood shedding is required whatsoever.
Of course for this to happen. One must believe in Allah.
If any body does not believe in Allah or calls another god along with Allah, then Allah is not the Eloh for him.
Jesus is a mighty prophet of Allah. So is Moses.
But they were both men blessed by Allah.
Moses is Al Kalim, meaning he is the one who was spoken to by Allah.
Muhmmed is Al Mostafa, meaning he was the one chosen by Allah.
Jesus is the Mesih.
Mesih, in Hebrew Machaich. The Messiah.
Is a word which means the anointed one.
Literally it means the rubbed one. Anointed comes from the understanding that when a Jewish King was chosen, he had oil rubbed over his head. That was the Jewish practice.
So from that background the Christians gathered that Jesus was a King to be. And that he would rein over Heavens and Earth.
The word Mesih alias Machaich really means the one who was touched, blessed, by Allah, no more.
He certainly did not die for any body's sin. Which would have been blasphemy in Islam "to die for any body's sin".
Actually he certainly did not die at all.
The Jews did not kill him. They had nothing to do with this story.
An illusion appeared on the cross and fooled the Romans into thinking they were crucifying somebody.
Jesus was standing by watching the idiots commit a foolish action.
He was ascended to heavens, because he has a futuristic role to be fulfiled. He will come back at the end days to kill the Antichrist, defeat his army, and save humanity from Gog and Megog.
The Jews misunderstood his purpose and opposed him.
Three days later the illusion disappeared. A cover up story was given by the Romans that he died and his body was stolen. The Apostles having spoken to him before he left, informed everybody that he was lifted to heavens.
In the confusion between his claimed death and his ascention to heavens the story of resurrection was invented.
Later on the Roman empire used that confusion to assert the concept of Trinity and the Father, Son, Holly Spirit beliefs.
The reason this was perseued is because the Roman empire is an Idolatrous State which worshipped Apollo, Posoiden, Zues, and other pagan Gods.
The Jews revolted against the Empire. They were masacared during the early 60's of the 1st century. The Empire played the creation of multi presence god so that the Jewish faith of monotheistic worship can be distroyed. And the Roman Empire becomes more acceptable to the peasants.
Jesus was not Allah.
He was not the son of Allah.
He was not crusified.
@@ahmedal-duaij428 thanks for sharing God bless you peace
The confussion about Jesus amongst Christians started way back...and still continues today and forever.
There were even some Christians then who argues if Jesus was to be co-equal with God he must be His Brother and not His Son.
Shall I tell you what is God? God is one... God is eternal..... God isn't born and neither does he give birth.... and there is none like unto him...
Mike Tyson. He is also paternal, maternal and fraternal, the uncreated creator, the Original Thought, Primal Energy source, the God of all that is and is not, of the seen and unseen, of both principles of certainty and uncertainty in physics and math, primal source of man's highest thoughts and inspiration, of the most sublime love, of the greatest joy,source of unending blessings forvevervand ever, Amen.
Bart is finally taking the gloves off and going to the core of the problem with Christianity. People are more focused on Paul's words than Jesus, PEOPLE ARE FOLLOWING TRINITY WHICH JESUS DID NOT TEACH!!!!!!
Bart contradicts himself in this video. he begins by saying that the Gospel of John differs from other Gospels in that it espouses a pre-incarnate Jesus as God, but then he finishes up by saying that christians did not come to believe that until 300 years later. John was clearly before that time.
6:37 "He wasn't just talking to himself" 😂
8:30 "The Confused Mystery"
this is very helpful, hope christians are listening
+بنت اليوتيوب :P *أستغفر الله* Not all of us believe in the trinity.
Biggest clown ever
I believe we are listening to the entire debate and not just this small section. Peace
Islam is just as much, if not more, bullshit than Christianity. Don't pat your Muslim back because you agree with some critical intellectuals work against Christianity. They could do the same to Islam.
Paul Mckenzie .. Please !! We arw waiting for them to make a study ..
I believe that Jesus is the son of God.
I no longer believe any of it.
Sorry.
If you believe that Jesus is the son of God because it's in the bible, go back and read it again because he is not the only one who made that claim.
God is my Father.....therefore i am His son. Halleluyah
The only verse I've seen hinting at the Trinity is Jesus' Great Commission. But Peter in Acts doesn't tell people to be baptized, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." He tells people to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Did Peter do it wrong or was he just telling us, "the name..." in Acts?
Quran 19:88-93
And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son."
You have done an atrocious thing.
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the WORD, & the word was with God & the word was God. (Word = Jesus)
This is incredible!
Satan is also incredible!!!
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
@clara wagon, you try to proof the bible by quoting the bible, that's no proof at all, give me proof outside the bible.
I have a son
And my son is me😂😂
Nope, the Son and the Father are not the same person, they are distinct persons, they just both make up the same essence, which is called God.
In the same way that Adam and Eve were both called Adam. Adam can mean one person specifically or a group of persons!
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called THEIR name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Genesis 5:1-2 KJV
A nation consists of multiple persons, but they are not the same. God consists of three Co eternal, Co equal, distinct persons!
@@johnroemeeks_apologetics HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I've literally heard all these in one conversation
I have the maker of the universe in my head telling me what to do. I have his arch enemy in my other ear tempting to sin. If I don’t believe this, I’ll be set on fire for all of time...
"Let no one decieve you from the simplicity in Christ"
"If another comes preaching a different Christ let him be anathema"
"To us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
-Paul
I used to be a former Trinitarian (Roman Catholic) for 53 years right up until God had mercy on me and sent me his Spirit. What does the Spirit have to say:
“At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for HIDING THESE THINGS FROM THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES WISE AND CLEVER, and for REVEALING THEM TO THE CHILDLIKE. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way.” (Luke 10:21)
“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will NEVER ENTER the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 18:3)
According to scriptures we are to put all things to the test, right? (1 Thess. 5:21)
Now, remember that show, “Are you smarter than a 5th grader”? Anyone here smarter than a 5th grader? Take the test and find out.
The topic is based on the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine declares the Godhead is triune being comprised of Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are “co-equal” with each other and “are all God”. Without being a bible scholar or having to twist scripture, this is really quite simple. Ready to play?
Elementary 5th grade reading and basic 2nd grade math show us the truth of this matter; hence being like a child just like our Lord said:
Open your Bible, go to the gospel of John and read the following verses for yourself: John 1:1-3. Now do the basic math. How many God beings do you count? 2 or 3?
Having established that both the Father and the Son are God from what you just read, now read the following verses: John 5:17, 5:19, 5:20, 5:21, 5:22, 5:23, 5:26, 5:30, 5:36, 8:28, 12:50, 10:30, 14:6, 14:23, 14:28, 15:10, 17:3, 17:5, Rom. 1:1, Rom. 1:27, 1 Cor. 1:3, 1 Cor. 1:9, 1 Cor. 8:6-7, 1 Cor. 15:27-28, 2 Cor. 1:2-3, Eph. 1:2, 5:20, Philip. 1:2, Col. 1:3, 1 Thess. 1:3, 2 Thess. 1:2, Phil. 1:3, Heb. 1:8-13, 1 Peter 1:3, 2 Peter 1:2, 1 John 1:3, 1: John 5:20, 2 John 1:3, 2 John 1:9, Rev. 3:12, 7:10, 21:22-23. Now do the basic math. How many God beings do you count? 2 or 3?
Those who consider themselves wise or smarter than a 5th grader, tell me, where in this world does 1 + 1 =3? Or 1 + 1=1?
The Spirit can keep going on with many more verses just like this. If you have the humility to be honest with yourself and what you just read, you will see the plain truth and the trinity doctrine is debunked. If the Holy Spirit was in fact God, why was he left out of all those verses? What happened to being “co-equal”?
Little children truly believe in Santa Claus in all sincerity up until the day they discover the ugly truth of the matter, right? This shouldn’t be any different. Why would you continue to believe a lie?
So now that you have read and seen the truth for yourself, do you still believe in the false trinity doctrine or are you not smarter than a 5th grader?
Another biblical fact: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is God. Nowhere!
It is crucial to understand what Deuteronomy 6:4 means when it says, “LORD is one.” The Hebrew word translated “one” in Deuteronomy 6:4 is echad. It means “unity,” not “singularity.” It is also used in Genesis 2:24 in referring to a husband and wife being “one” flesh. A husband and wife clearly are not one as in a singular being. Rather, they are in unity with each other. There is a Hebrew word that means “absolute singularity,” yachid, but it is never used in the Hebrew Scriptures in reference to God.
Many will foolishly say this proves the trinity. No! It doesn’t! It simply points back to what is written in John 1:1. Look and look but don't see?
Biblical truth clearly declares without room for error or ambiguity that God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit are NOT CO-EQUAL. The Father and the Son are both divine-both God Beings-but fulfill very different roles. Christ stated matter of fact, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). The doctrine of the trinity portrays God as a closed, indefinable, three-in-one being, rather than a divine God Family that can expand-currently consisting of the Father and His Son, the Messiah.
The world foolishly says about the Spirit of God that he is “God the Spirit”. Jesus tells us that “God IS spirit” (John 4:24). Do you see how foolish this is already? Why does God need a Spirit if he already IS spirit? It is the Spirit of God. The word “OF” being paramount as the Spirit belongs to God; the word “OF” denotes possession/ownership.
Don’t know who the Holy Spirit is? Simple, read John 1:51 and Hebrews 1:7, 1:14, and Psalm 104:4. There is our Helper in plain sight yet most are so blinded by the years of false teaching and lies they can’t see the truth. Angel of the Lord, Angel of God, Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit = the Holy Spirit.
Let the Bible explain itself, it's quite simple and straightforward. If you have the Spirit, the teaching is very simple without having to twist scripture and believe in something that just isn't there. Biblical truth is based on the word of God and the trinity is not in it. Why would any true Christian believe in something that is not written in the word of God?
The trinity is just one of many clever counterfeits devised by the devil to deceive humanity (Rev. 12:9). This world’s god does not want human beings to know they are offered what he can never have. Satan does not want men to know that God is reproducing Himself, expanding His Family in a way that can include them-meaning you! Your destiny is membership in this God Family, as a born-again Son of God, ruling with Christ at His imminent return (Rev. 3:21)
“To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” (Rev. 3:21).
It’s time to unlearn one of the greatest lies of so called “modern Christianity”. Believe in what Christ said and taught. Believe in what is clearly written in the word of God and not in the invented mythology or eisegesis of men. Stop being led by the teaching of men and start believing what is taught by the word of God in the Spirit.
If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!
Repent for the kingdom of God is near!
One could develop an entire book from this. Thank you so much. It is FREE TO BE FREE! THIS TRUTH IS TRULY LIBERATING. THANK YOU!
@@officialpeopletoken "and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32).....Amen!
An excellent summary. What th3 good doctor does well is clearly show the developmental nature of the trinity doctrine. It is anachronistic to talk about the trinity in the NT. The first Christians were concerned to prove that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, not that he was God Almighty.
Your comment starting at 9:30 pretty much says it all.
One question for mr. Bart ehrman, when will u says ur shahada ?
Inshallah
Are you insane? He will never become a muslim because he is an agnostic. He does not believe that their is a God and he sees human suffering everywhere.
william James Verily! You (O Muhammad SAW) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided. (Surah Al-Qasas 28:56)
@@najmussakib8913 I am a secular Christian myself and I am not willing to change my faith.
william James Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. (Surah Al-Bakarah 2:7)
Well said by bart..imagine if the whole simpson family spoke..lol
I love the sarcasm. Reminds me of Elijah the Prophet. He had the same respect for Prophets of Baal that we have.
You are going to like this....
Well, the presenter here is no different from any of us in one respect.
He doesn't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12.
Trinity or no?
You know, I have seen this both ways and there is something we should all be aware of, that there is something else that is significant when speaking on this topic.
Something, elemental, something we never consider.
In the Bible there is one, and only one human source that has seen God clearly, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN, that has something to say, relevant to this topic.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Would you care to see what he has to say?
The following is not intended to prove there is a Trinity, but to show from the best source in scripture that Jesus is God Almighty, which simultaneously debunks the One and Only God belief system, and avoids debating Trinity vs. non Trinity.
This is my answer to those who don't believe Jesus is God.
Best proof in the Bible, that Jesus is God, disproving the One and Only God, heresy.
1.
If Jesus is not God, then how do you reconcile that belief with Rev. 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9?
Jesus is God, because He sent HIS Holy Prophet from heaven, HAVING SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, to the Holy Prophet John in the Revelation, telling us Jesus is Lord God of the Holy Prophets!
Jesus sent His Prophet.
Only God can send HIS PROPHETS!
2.
The Prophet Jesus sent from heaven IS THE ONLY HUMAN SOURCE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, having seen GOD CLEARLY, face to face IN HEAVEN!
1 Corinthians 13:12
EVERYONE ELSE SPEAKING IN THE BIBLE, and YOU, ME, EVERYONE, just don't see clearly.
1 Corinthians 13:12
Again, Jesus' BIBLE HOLY PROPHET, seeing clearly, says Jesus is LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS!
One of GOD's Holy Prophets, certainly knows WHO HIS GOD IS!!
3.
God's Holy Prophet John, who is 'in the Spirit' throughout his vision, after seeing and hearing Jesus and God's Holy Prophet in Revelation 22:16 and Rev. 22:6-9, calls Jesus LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in his introduction to the vision HE HAS ALREADY SEEN and HEARD.
Rev. 1:7,8.
That's Jesus and two Holy Prophets, ONE JESUS SENT FROM HEAVEN, SEEING CLEARLY, WE DON'T, telling you JESUS IS GOD!!!!!
DOH!
So which position is Bart taking here? That they were incorrect in eventually reaching a conclusion on the trinity or that they were correct? I personally believe God exists as Body, Soul, and Spirit just as we do (made in his image). The difference from modalism is that I believe God can manifest each piece of himself independently but will be One God in eternity. I dont know if I will always believe this but after MANY years as a trinitarian this is where I have arrived for the current time.
Colosians !:19 NKJV He was before all else began and through Him all things consist Living (edited) He was before everything else began and it is His power that holds everything together. Bart you were saying something very significant but you mistook a part or couldn't remember something significant unless it's me? Praise The Lord Lester don't get hung up with words. If someone is mistaken about something we need to help educate them or in their Reply you'll grow more into a knowledge of the Truth...
Praise the Lord.
It may be Lester?