Why Reaching Level 20 in D&D Never Happens...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
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In a game designed to go all the way up to level 20, why are there so few instances of people actually reaching that level? In this video we explore all the reasons why level 20 is such a rare milestone for players to reach!
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Solid points. Good explanation.I like these for high level monster powers: 1) whatever attack you make on it--spells--weapons--anything--only does 1hp damage. 2) Three attacks. On a natural 20, the target is beheaded and instantly killed, no save, regardless of hit points. Again, great video. Rock on. --Professor Dungeonmaster, Dungeoncraft.
Burnout and the DM being able to create encounters for high levels is a real art form
D&D has a special feel for those first four levels. Characters feel very much mortal
Hard agree with this. 5e was designed for beginners in mind, and so the first three levels are training wheels. You're expected to level up to 2 after your first session, giving you the entire dnd experience in your first go. Fixing the xp requirements for levels 1-6 and pulling characters down from 3 to 1 would make for a punchier, wilder game.
5e (well, all dnd really) after level 8 is a mess. Ten feels like a good, honest cap.
Over the course of DnD generations and the rise of the "action-adventure RPG" video game genre (ex: Skyrim), the emphasis on playing heroes who are overly extraordinary in their world - often times reaching messianic status - has grown tremendously in popularity. I didn't immediately catch onto this until reaching higher levels and danger felt more like a nuisance than an actual threat - even if I am low on HP - because high-level combat can take hours to complete and true death feels intangible until a bad dice roll happens. And with this in mind, the most fun I have had is when mortality is on the line at those low levels.
There are oodles of games where your PC feels mortal. I don't see why you'd describe low level D&D as special in this regard.
@eriktyrrell424 because we are discussing dnd in a vacuum, a game that is notoriously hard to get people to leave. Yes, games like traveller and wfrp give us that mortality feel in spades, but without that ampersand on the cover it's a hard sell to most.
I have a campaign idea that starts characters AT level 20 to play a "pre-history" session that sets world knowledge, then players begin a set of 1st level characters to discover how things worked out a couple of centuries later.
I love that idea!
@@misfitadventurers I figure that will take the pressure off trying to get them TOO 20th... Then it can end wherever it ends.
@@misfitadventurersreminds me of a secondhand story from a gaming convention one-shot. DM handed out epic level pregen characters, of recognizable powerful wizard names like Modenkainen, Bigby, Leomud, etc. And started the story of a council of wizards coming together to discuss some new evil that was going to take over the land. And before anyone could roll any dice, DM announced there was a bright light, and they ceased to exist. Then handed out more pregens, low level nobodies, and narrated that they just saw a wizard's tower off in the distance vaporized, and maybe they should check it out.
I had this same idea for a campaign. I want the players to meet an NPC that tells of a story from long ago "so the legends tell" and on the following session have the players play lvl 20 characters (would have to have them built and ready to go by the next session) and let what happens to them in that session(s) become the story that's been passed down.
As encounters get higher level I find you have to add more depth to the fight to keep it interesting. Slogging it out gets tiring, instead have a hostage, someoneone running away, a ritual you need to stop or changing environment. This means more work from a GM to provide challenge and engagement.
Congratulations on finishing for summer! Hope you can relax now.
It is definitely a commitment to go from Level 1 to 20! I got back into playing D&D after not really playing much since 2e in the early 90s. I started playing 5e back in 2017 with my kids. I have a group of buddies that I played D&D with in high school back in the 80s. We still stay in touch, but are scattered around the U.S. In 2018 I reached out and asked if they would be interested in trying 5e on a VTT. They agreed and I ran a 1st level One-Shot. Everyone enjoyed it. So, we decided to turn it into a campaign and continued with the same characters. We've been playing every other week for 6 years now. We've only had to cancel maybe 1 or 2 sessions a year. They have only made it to level 10! With a group of 5 level 10 characters it's already becoming more difficult to keep it challenging. I can only imagine what it will be like it in 5+ levels.
Great video!
As a player, I've only ever been in games that reached level 13. As a DM, most of my campaigns (homebrews) last 4-5 years each and the players generally reach 20. My players and I have been playing together for between 10 to 35 years, so we're well established to be able to pull it off.
Wow. I wish i have that kind of group. Or friends.
Same here. It is very nuanced, bc the CR system is just awful past level/ CR 12, with some lower exceptions, like properly run Kobold and urd lairs or a locked tomb filled with waves of shadows and banshees.
I like level 20 campaigns, but they are very difficult. Good video topic, but we need solutions just as much as the recognition of the problem.
Alot of people resort to the simplistic:
- more HP
- more damage/ higher hit chance
- more AC
- more saves/ legendary resists
- more immunities/ resistances
- more critters... more waves and waves of critters ...
I'm of the thought, build better monsters, which is why I break out 3rd party (Kobold Press' Tome of Foes is my favorite) materials over Level/ CR 15. Kobold Press seems to understand the truest meaning behind CR, which WotC doesn't- except the formula they use internally they don't share with DMs.
I personally love high level D&D. I've run multiple campaigns now that have reached 20th level, and I'm currently playing in one that the DM swears will not just reach 20, but continue AT 20 for some time. I honestly can't wait.
I love the big, epic adventure of fighting demon lords, invading planes like the 9 Hells or the Abyss, working directly for gods and immortals, making our own kingdoms and territories either on the Prime Material or elsewhere.
That all said, I fully realize that our group is kind of the exception. We've known each other for years, we've played not just D&D but tons of other games as well like Shadowrun, Fallout, Star Wars, Conan, etc.
Good luck with your level 20 one-shot. I'm running my players through a Tales of the Yawning Portal campaign (my first campaign as a DM). I intend to take them to level 20. Due to the dungeons having level restrictions, it's taking a long time to get there. It's been over 2 years and they're level 7. But, by the time we get past Tomb of Horrors, the revised books should be out and, I'm hoping more high level adventures will be out as well. So, hopefully, challenging them won't be as hard.
Have a great summer.
It was mentioned in the comments about semi retiring characters…. This has been a normal idea I use. I’m also a sandbox DM, so I go with the flow. I set a starting point and let the players build the rails. I’ve been doing this since the late 80s.
That said, I have homebrew restrictions and encourage multiclassing. The first restriction is a max lvl 15 main class….. most classes get their best feature right around there. If the campaign makes level 15 or higher they are already one of the best at what they do. I do some things to help buff the characters when it comes to some resources but I also have rules in place to give somethings a cost that increases the stakes of player agency.
I GM published Pathfinder 2e adventure paths and have had groups complete three level 1-20 campaigns and one level 10-20 campaign so far. The encounter balance works in PF2e, and the Paizo adventure paths are well-written for the top-end character levels.
Never played higher than level 12, I would love to try GMing higher levels but worry about the time combats will take if they are actually challenging! Good video! Have a great summer.
Tier 4 characters can be surprisingly brittle, too. They’re both powerful and surprisingly weak at the same time. The shadows encounter is a great example.
One last point is that things can be scarily slow at very high levels.
I actually had a character death (soon remedied) during the level 20 dungeon in a revised Candlekeep mysteries/spelljammer mashup I did recently. High level combat can be very hard to balance, so the use of environmental effects and lair actions is key.
Currently at 14th level in one of our campaigns, and we’ve been playing for around 3 years 😂
My mind is blown. Why is so much stuff making me think of Misfits today 🤔
Check out Treatmonk's level 20 one shot video. He, Colby, and the Dungeon Dudes are all really experienced players and you can pick up a lot of good tips on how to make such a high level adventure fun!
Spotted the Pathfinder 2e books on your shelf while you were saying that it's hard to balance encounters at high levels in 5e... ;)
I just found this channel and it seems enjoyable. I plan to catch more of your videos. As for level 20 adventures, you are right there is a dearth of material. I am DM for a party of 17th level characters. I have been looking all over for opponents and other challenges for them. I already have encounters pencilled in for level 20, I just have to get them there. The story arc is to save the world from and invasion from another plane of existence. I am going to look into Uncaged Goddesses. Thanks for spiking my interest.
Surprisingly, the new Vecna module that was released is supposed to take characters to level 20. But, as you said, that is rare. I think they only did it because it is supposed to be the last module for this edition and it was also intended to be a bit of a 50th anniversary type module too.
Hi. I just found this channel. Great topic! I've been running games since 1989 and only had 2 parties make it from level 1 to level 20 (and higher) in AD&D 2nd Edition and Star Wars RPG Revised Core Rules. Both of those games took several years of regular sessions (3 years of weekly 6 hour sessions in the first case, and 3 years of monthly 12 hour sessions in the second. In both cases, the PCs were leading armies against armies led by a draco-lich/lich team-up, and a pair of sith lords serving an ancient dark-side spirit. In any case, I've also played in several campaigns that reached level 15 or so, and I agree that challenging characters at these power levels is difficult. The Highest level character I've played in 5e was a 12th level Bard, but that campaign went on hiatus after 2 of the players had a baby in real life. I'm currently running a 5e campign where the PCs are 7th level. I am Hoping to take them to 20th, but they have already defeated SEVERAL creatures that should have been WAY beyond their abilities. I am struggling to find a way to keep them challenged without creating combat encounters that take hours to resolve.
"I'm 37 years old, and I've played a lot of D&D. I've leveled up from 1 to 20 in 3.5 with two separate wizards; one of them even reached level 25. In D&D 5e, I had my favorite character ever reach level 20. It was during a massive Undermountain sandbox adventure. My character, a gnome wizard named Scruple Deepwater, started out in Waterdeep Dragon Heist. However, our plans took an unexpected turn when a friend decided to venture into Undermountain prematurely. We were supposed to wait five years for preparation, but one day, we received his belongings along with a letter from an NPC, informing us that our friend had either perished or been captured somewhere in Undermountain."
My players are level 25. We use the epic level system. It's awesome. Theyre pretty much their own DMs
which epic level system are you using?
As a GM that has made it from level 1 to level 18 with a module, 5E is a different game once you pass 12th level. It helped that I was basing off a Paizo adventure path, but it's also a lot of throwing obstacles at the PCs and hoping that they have the resources to overcome or subvert them. It also doesn't help that many of the high level monsters in the monster manual aren't very challenging.
The point about the monster manual is an excellent one. I've bought multiple "monster manual" books from 3rd party groups (mostly Kobold Press's Creature Codex and Tomb of Beasts series) which are SO MUCH better than the MM is. They have way more interesting and unique monster abilities than the standard monsters from MM have to offer.
DMing for over 25 years. 3 campaings have gotten to lvl 20 before completion (1 of those a pathfinder adventure path) and 1 epic level campaign that fizzled out. Current of the 3 lvl 20 campaigns has been going on for like 6 years, and my party is near the end. It takes a lot of work, commitment, and knowing your players enough to keep them interested and engaged.
It is difficult, time-consuming, and totally worth it if you can manage it.
Side note: A cleric with Spirit Guardians can make quick work of any number of shadows. Or at least render the encounter rather obsolete. At least RAW
Well thought out discussion on it. I agree with all of your points. I have a core group that we are on our third campaign, the first one finished at level 14, the second was level 11, and now we are attempting the third. You have to kind of break the game to challenge high level characters.
Happy Summer!
For me, the one 5e campaign I ran the characters got to level 8 - by that time I HATED it. 2 rounds of combat could take the better part of an hour and no one ever broke a sweat. And the solution, to give them ANOTHER combat after their abilities have been used was way less than appealing. I can’t even imagine running any higher than that without wanting it to just be done.
I’ll play 5e if it’s offered, but it’s not my favorite. I will never run it again.
Then you're not running it properly. I think half of ya'll don't even read how an adventuring day is supposed to be structured before talking a lot of shit you don't understand.
I agree with you. Level 20 is more likely to just be a wish list or dream level that nobody wants to run but everyone wants to play. In my opinion it only works as a PvP encounter where the players challenge each other. Otherwise the options for even a group of 3 level 20 characters would be very difficult to challenge them for anything. Even social encounters would be difficult when characters will likely have at least one or two stats at 20. On top of all that any battle will take forever. With so many options players will sift through all the best possible ways to tackle each enemy. Tons of HP to chip away at with options to gain most the HP lost back extending the fights even longer.
Mid level play is where most players and DM's have the most fun IMO. Enough room to have some power and feel like a bad ass. Yet weak enough that danger can be real making the stakes high and thus winning a battle feels earned.
All of your points are pretty solid! Though making a campaign longer term gets abit easier if you have the world reacting to the players/character actions at those levels. High level encounters make more sense if they are aware & preparing for the characters 😁
Playing 1st edition level 20 characters was very challenging and fun.
Levels 3-7 are so much fun in First and Second Editions
Nice video. I agree with Professor Dungeonmaster. Keep this channel
Going.
Title of the video
Me: Meanwhile I am running my 3rd high level campaign.
Highest I've ran was up to level 17 at the end of my 2 year frostmaiden campaign. It became very difficult to adequate challenge the players
Enemies become spongy or deadly lethal neither of which is very fun.
With the whole milestone leveling routine, getting to 20 should be a breeze. I agree, though, finding things to do at higher levels can be tough. A big dungeon crawl with little time to rest might do the trick.
Very high powered mixed system games can be really fun with the right group of players, the game that I was in, it was very hard to get a low lvl character to live, I would go threw 50 or so to get one to lvl 9 or 10 where they had enough power & friends with power to have a chance, it's not for everyone but we had a blast.
Four years into playing these characters and they are barely 13th. I have a sandbox, non-linear old style game. And I believe reaching 20th is where it all should begin. In first edition, when I played instead of being DM, my favorite character was a dual classed character who I played for over 20 years. An assassin/magic user who was 14th/23rd. And my DM could challenge me. 1e was really fun.
My favorite D&D Campaign is (The Throne Of The Bloodstone.) It goes from levels 18 to 100. It's the highest level d&d campaign ever created as far as I remember. And I've played through it twice. My first character that I played through ended at level 64. And the last character that I played through stomped at 80 and then we picked it back up and went all the way to 100 I still have his character sheet It is a binder full of 80 plus pages.
Yes!!!! I loved Throne of Bloodstone. It was a great campaign. The war game aspect was really fun, I still remember us just brute forcing our way through the Assassin's Run since our party had no rogues in it, fighting Orcus, etc. That entire series was just great. So glad someone else remembers it as fondly as I do.
I played lvl 20 one shot, it was fun and super broken.
So, the big problem I have seen with playing level 20 characters in a one-shot was, it is near impossible to keep all your abilities in your mind especially if this is a brand new character to you. I would say when you do this, recommend to the players that they play a character they have played previously so they know the earlier rules for the character, how those rules interact with the rules they are not used to & not trying to figure out what you'll do when the character can't use their latest abilities. I have played a lot of multiclass characters so I do not know the upper level abilities well & many people even struggle with recalling the second level features when playing an 8th level character. (I hope you have a great time.)
My group did something like that once. It turned out to be a blast, with a little prep work.
This was after the "DC Legends Of Tomorrow" show premiered and we'd gotten to talking about resurrecting some PCs (victims of maladies like Fizzled Campaign Syndrome, Replaced Before 9th-itis, or Acute TPK) and running them in an Epic Level one-shot. And we decided to add some Villains That Got Away as adversaries.
We did a couple of sessions we called "The Danger Room" (to me, my X-PCs!) where we rewrote the PCs as Level 21 - because Epic Boons are cool - and practicing their high-level abilities against increasingly powerful foes and hazards, because I wasn't used to DMing that high either.
After a couple of those we were ready for The Big Time. The actual one-shot actually took two sessions, but it wasn't a slog.
Something that came out of those sessions - that we've since adopted as standard - is using 3×5 index cards for the unfamiliar abilities. With summaries of results & saves, any secondary or lingering effects, and semi-scripted breakdowns of using them in play. We've found they can really speed up combat encounters.
We call them alternately Cheat Sheets, Combo Cards, or Special Effects. That last one is my favorite, because I love to hear a player announce "Death by Special Effect!"
[edited for spelling and clarity]
You covered a bit of it, but the allure of the new shiny. With characters growing in complexity, remembering all the mechanical parts of the PCs (both as individual players and GM to best customize encounters), remembering all the dangling plot threads and NPCs and fetch quests, etc. Even within D&D there's the longing for the simplicity of the time when you had nine hit points and two spell slots and the only thing going on was fighting rats in the inn's basement. Not to mention players wanting to have a stab at the GM role, or wanting to play a new RPG system, or get into a trading card game, or just stop gaming and try a movie night.
The party I currently DM for is about to hit lv19 if they can make it to the next long rest.
We've been running this campaign using xp, playing weekly for ~3 years.
It's the first ever campaign for the majority of the party.
This is really going to mess with their expectations of future games with this atypical experience.
In 26 years; I've managed to GM 2 campaigns to level 20, and a handful to the mid-to-late teens.
I quite enjoy running high level play. Balancing isn't much of an issue. The players have so many abilities, resources & contingencies; you can just throw what you like at them and they will find a way to win/survive.
The players will be rich & powerful enough to make major changes to the world; so the campaign needs to revolve more around their personal goals rather than an overarching plot. A wizard player may want to set up a magic school in a demiplane. Another player might want to build an army to take over a small country. A necromancer might want to creature a new type of undead or attain lichdom, etc
All these can lead to adventures & roleplaying opportunities.
6. DMs capable of running such high level games are rare.
I find it interesting, the problems new DMs seem to have.
I started playing, and DMing with AD&D (apparently now called 1st Edition), where it was just expected that, as long as your character didn't die, and it was more likely that they would, you would get to Level 20 and play at that level before ending the campaign and starting a new character for the next game.
In fact, in the 80's, during the big D&D scare, parents were being told that the entire point of D&D was to get your character up to Level 20 and then suicide the character, and that somehow, that would also cause your child to do the same. The 80's were a weird time.
I went away for about 40 years, and now I've come back to find this watered down 5th Edition, where no one dies, and you get all these Death Saving Throws, spells to bring back the dead and all the other stuff. So if your characters aren't making it to Level 20, with all the crutches you have now, there's something wrong. Yeah, ok, people have lives and may not be able to play the years it takes to complete a campaign. But that's the only reason I can think of, off the top of my head, for why they wouldn't.
As for what you throw at Level 20 Characters, well, if you're still using published adventures above Level 10, you aren't a very creative DM. I know I'm jaded, but no one back in the 80's, was using published adventures. A few starter adventures existed, but that was all. It was far more fun to create your own adventures. Granted, everything was a Dungeon Delve, but even so, it was far more fun to make your own. What they now call Home Brew, we just called it D&D.
What do you throw at a Level 20 party? Gods. Not one or two, but entire Pantheons. You also create Level 20 NPCs for them to fight. I know that the BBEG I create for the game at the beginning, isn't going to last an entire Campaign, so I don't even try. I create the first Big Bad, and as the game progresses, I get ideas for other BBEGs. I have half a dozen or more, by the time the original BBEG is defeated, and as that time draws near, I pick the one I think will be the most fun, and I start sprinkling in plot hooks. I may have three, four, or even five different Big Bads by the time the party gets to Level 15.
It's sort of like Babylon 5. You defeat the big threat, and suddenly that leads into an even bigger, or more pressing threat, which then leads into another, and that can go on indefinitely. Ending the Shadow War, reveals Night Watch, and the Authoritarian Government takeover. Ending that threat leads to the Telepath War, because they were backing the Authoritarian Government, with the intent to run everything from behind the scenes. Throughout, you have little side quests that cement the next phase as a viable threat.
Yes you're incredibly jaded. It's good that you know that.
the couple of times I played level 20 character we started at level 20.
My level 12 (nearly 13) halfling monk will try to get there. :)
But you’re totally right, it’s unlikely that you get there, and most adventures don’t reach that high. And as a player I would like to also change things up a bit and create a new character.
Shadows are CR 1/2 so, assuming they've got a Channel Divinity/Turn Undead available any Cleric of 5th level or up with destroy all within 30 ft. that fail a Wisdom saving throw. The Cleric doesn't have to see the Shadows, they need need to be able to see *OR* hear the Cleric. A 5th level Cleric is probably going to have a DC 14 (from 8+Wis[3]+Prof[3]) or better, Shadows don't get a bonus so that's about 65% of them blown away - assuming the Cleric survives into their turn on round 1. Up at 20th level, that DC is going to up at around DC 8+Wis[5]+Prof[6] = 19. So that's 90% of them (any undead up to CR 4) obliterated with a single word. Of course, without Turn Undead it becomes a lot dicier if 50+ Shadows creep out of the shadows.
My players reached level 20 last night right before our final boss. Ended the 5 year long campaign :)
But I definitely feel that levels 1-12 are the most enjoyable parts of the game.
since playing 5th ed the highest our characters have gotten to was 10 and 11. Tomb of Annihilation ended with everybody being lvl 11, and Storm Kings Thunder was lvl 10. Only time I've played a lvl 20 character was back in 2nd edition but our characters started at lvl 20 so it kind of counts.
I'd agree with some of your other comments--DM burnout is a huge issues at high levels just because there is so much more work to do. I've run absurd level play and it's hard. Ultimately, you reach a point where the only thing that can challenge a high level party is another high level party, whether it's standard player races, or a Dark Sun 30th level Dragon King Arch Mage who also can breath a cone of molten slag sand.
Also, high level play at the very least involves domain or even world level consequences, so you're really talking about characters who are going to be involved with armies--either their own or as a part of one. Older editions of the game did develop things for this level of play, which usually started at 9th or 10th level. And this is where most adventuring modules ended. There were a few designed for characters 10th-14th, but those were rare--the vast majority of modules were published for characters 1st - 7th level, and that's the sweet spot of adventuring and dungeon delving.
That's why when I hear about people who start their games at level 5, I can't believe it because you've lost four of the best adventuring levels.
Or your characters could go out and go plane hopping, but each plane of existence would have it's own "physics" and ways magic does or doesn't work, so again that puts a lot of work on both the DM and players to make adjustments when their magic items or abilities don't work in the 777th level of the abyss they way they might on the prime material plane or in the 3rd heaven.
Every time you're going to a new plane, something different is messed up--that's friction that leads to frustration.
I took a party fron 1 to 20 in 5e using straight xp. It took six years and the last few levels were a slog. I'm glad I did it, but never again.
One theme I have seen with high level modules is the pocket dimension where 'magic works differently'. So their strategy is to take away the PC's high level spells and abilities or at least alter the way they work. Another method is destroying or taking away their equipment, particularly magic items. Taking away their toys and frustrating the PCs in other words.
Players hate that sort of thing. They consider it sort of DM "cheating". I wouldn't do it lightly.
This reason interacts with the time commitment reason that people don't hit level 20: Players get itching to try other character concepts or builds (or DMs get interested in new worlds/campaigns)
Im currently at the end of a campaign where they are level 20. It was long and difficult as a DM to get them there
You are so much better than Ginny D.
My group started Strahd a year ago. L1-L8 so far. Will be playing Eve of Ruin L10-20.
Past that, we will use Level Up rules for L20-30.
So it can be done if your group is determined enough.
Then again, my group has over 240 years combined RPG gaming experience
There can be more than one female D&D youtuber. *gasp*
It's a pretty big flaw of the system to only be mechanically interesting from levels 3 to 12. I know people don't like when Pathfinder is mentioned, but seeing my players use varied actions at level 1 in Pathfinder months after my level 12 5e rogue fought the BBEG with her party only doing steady aim + crossbow strike each round (which was objectively the optimal play when I didn't try to hide) was extremely refreshing.
Making CR 20 encounters that will challenge a party is hard.
The power creep is real and a difficult monster to slay. Know your PCs and how to foil them (in the literary sense). Create villains that mirror or counter them without striping their agency or deminish their abilities. It's a fine line you have to walk sometimes.
More emphasis needs to be put on the 'adventuring day'
if you only look at single encounters and the party is coming in fresh and fully charged; then yes those high CR monsters are going to get nuked. The game is designed with the expectations that the players are meant to win.
But it is also designed with the intent of multiple encounters a day, and that does not translate to the 5min adventuring day the majority of DMs run where it's a single encounter then taking a rest.
For however many "I win" buttons the party has, that is how many encounters you should plan for before the next long rest.
They don't need to be long encounters. In fact bank on them being short because they are being resolved quickly and easily with those "I win" buttons. Those encounters sole reason is to draw those uses out.
THEN you throw in the centrepiece encounter; the one which you wanted to have focus and didn't want to be over in an opening round nova.
Players are far easier to challenge on the longer timescale than trying to squeeze it all into a single encounter.
I've assumed that the higher the levels of play was for sessions of smaller groups. All the PC's are still in the campaign world, but they don't get together and go adventuring as much.
Some of the material from earlier D&D editions covering "Epic" level play might be of use. The campaign usually turns from being one of personal adventure into one where the characters are trying to run/establish a domain/kingdom and are facing off existential threats to those. Also, the types of foes that they have aren't the ones that are going to be waiting for the characters to come to them in their lair. They're going to have the resources to pick the characters and their associates off one by one at inopportune times or otherwise undermine their authority. It becomes quite a different game at those high levels.
Thank you for the video :)
I was gonna write a long list of my grievances with the video, but everything I wanted to say can be summed up rather succinctly with the following statement:
"The rulebooks aren't."
Pacing, challenge rating, fun, cheating, player engagement, **everything is the DMs job to solve**. Those answers AREN'T in the DM's guide. There are some nice suggestions, but zero answers.
Level 15 or so seems to be a natural terminus.
Have a fun summer! It's margarita time! :D
Couldn't have said it better myself! 😆
Also, third parties make some cool, powerful monsters. And sometimes have templates where you can create any level of a type of monster.
The only time I've seen it work well is to semi-retire the high level characters once it becomes too hard to find meaningful challenges for each session. The players make new characters in the same world, and they exist at the same time as the high-level semi-retired characters, and the DM can have the players reprise their high level characters occasionally for some bigger plot in the world.
This is a norm. I had three campaigns running concurrently in my homebrew, all three at different levels…. Each feeding the other. It’s a art and takes time to build it.
@@syvajarvi2289 I feel like this could also work really well in a West Marches style of game, since there it would be up to the players to come up with ideas, and then the DM can develop something around those ideas.
@@StephanieDaugherty absolutely, I came up in Westmarch’s style games and sandbox my homebrew for that reason. Some of the most fun we had was a lvl 5 campaign that the players were acquisitioners for the artificers guild that was supplying the high level characters and armies.
designing for high level content isn't just difficult because of what's in the game and the laughably weak statblocks you're given for those levels, it's difficult because the same people who can comprehend and wield those high level character sheets are often veterans in playing it and are in turn often extremely creative with what they have, it was hard enough challenging my level 2 party of vets with how they comprehend and test the limits of their low levels, I'm both excited and mortified at the prospect of eventually handing them tier 4 powers
one thing i will say about it is having a lot of enemies is actually a good idea if you lump them together in initiative, use averages, etc. because you want to keep your AOE team busy and let the single target party members go after the "main target"
the music loop is slowly driving me insane
ive done it once in my 23 years of dnd
I am looking to pathfinder for higher lvl play. Their adventure path campaigns run from 1-20 or 1-10 and then you can pick one of their 11-20 campaigns to continue if you like and feel that battling the same bad guy for 20 lvls is a slog.
I havent played a lot of pf2e so far so i dont know how high lvl play ends up being in pathfinder but supposedly their math is tighter and encounters are more balanced at high lvl. when i GMed pf2e i had a lot more fun running combat then 5e as the pf2e statblocks had more abilities at low lvl then the dnd ones.
Skill level of the Dungeon Master.
I have gone to 20 & beyond several times even in D&D 5e.
You know, empathy is also a skill.
@apjapki
You know there is such a thing as toxic empathy.
@@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec Yes but you don't need to worry about that.
Maybe the progression of levels in ttrpgs needs to be redesigned. Maybe maximum power output should be at level 10 and then levels after that progress your character in different ways
Because most dms (and wotc apparently) think higher levels just means higher numbers so players get bored.
Wasnt a problem before wotc got hold of D&D. Used to play with groups in ad&d that played high level adventures all the time. There were modules made for high lvl, but wotc dnd isnt anything like old school D&D.
Biggest issue with high level dnd is how clunky the system feels at that point. Rounds can take a long time at level 10. At level 20 it’s probably terrible.
Look for the new WotC campaign module, “Vecna, Eve of Ruin.” It was literally released 1 week ago (May 21st, 2024). The campaign starts with characters at level 10 and it takes them all the way to level 20.
If a Lich falls in the forest...
@@NemoOhd20. . . And there's nobody there to hear him . . .
Does that mean the party found his phylactery?
I mean, im not gonna lie, I've thought about throwing my players into a 3 lvl jump, add 3 years of traveling and enjoying the stars and return to a simple street thug that puts hurt out and returns from his slain opponents. Paranoia becomes the enemy
Why not "homebrew" the shadows into shadow knights? Give them +3 plate, insane saving throw bonuses, and 3 attacks each with like +15 to hit, and roll a d6 for the strength loss? Lol. If balance breaks at high level, just go crazy with the monster buffs, lol.
Shadows as is, if ran correctly, can be challenging for a high level group. A few lucky rolls... Shadows also make excellent filler for fights.
Let us know how it goes!
Yeah level 20 is certainly quite a thing Alrite , I think last time I played I played at 20 it took a double nightwalker fight to really create some threat, which sounds like a lot but the party still won out pretty convincingly, Ild soundly expect a high level party to take care of many shadows a well played AOE , a spirit guardians or a turn undead kinda solves it
Not that i've had many lvl 20 battles but doesn't turn time go way up by that point, i know i can feel it between level 3 and 10.
Waiting for your turn in a group of five is bad enough but at lvl 20 it must be murder.
I feel the stories get more "cosmic" kind of how comic books eventually end up cosmic with power Level. Some players don't like those kinds of stories and prefer a more grounded setting.
As a DM who set out to try to get 5e characters from 1st level Dragon Heist characters through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, Feywild and Avernus to get to level 20...I'm bored with the campaign? I really set out to see if it could be done and man, it is becoming a chore for me. So, burnout more than any other thing, for me as a DM.
wish, power word kill, foresight, these are part of the reason.
One word: Wish
One important thing that makes level 20 gameplay incredibly boring is combat taking so long xD Even the most trivial fights can be slogs if players dont want to burn their best/strongest abilities.
To challenge high-level players. Less brawn and more brain work. Create major conflicts of emotions and beliefs. Yes if you must create OP villains that can stand up to your god-like players and even outwit them.
can the DM in the group just decide to play at level 20?
Sorry. I don't mean to detract from proper engagement with my random commentary. 😅
I've not actually played much D&D. So, all I can really contribute is sort of armchair philosophy.
I know that besides what you mentioned, the way that levels are achieved might play a part. Nobody wants to use XP. Of course, nobody wants to play at lower than 3rd level either, and that should just make the task of getting to 20 easier.
I think they are missing a huge opportunity to lower the power curve with 2024. That's always been the problem with 5e, it's a superhero simulator, not a medieval fantasy rpg
In 4e there were 30 levels, can you imagine?
Oh man... 😅
In 3.5 my main campaign went to level 50.
@@jimmyrepine8952 Those were the good old days before they dumbed the game down.
@@jimmyrepine8952 That must have been a Beast of a campaign
Even if you played every week and leveled every time it would take 4 months no one’s schedules ever have done that in the history of the world.
Level 21: unlimited wish spells as actions, reactions and bonus actions!
Only played AD&D ❤2nd Edition " Why Reaching Level 20 in D&D Never Happens..." ? 🤔if you say so i have characters from every class from 2000-2008 Level 30x2 and down a few in the 20S and in the Teens we ran 2 characters at once . this sounds like a edition issue or DM or Players ending it . 2nd works 💯so this sounds like a edition 🤣💩issue mostly . ?
I generally understand and agree what you're saying here, but I think the part where you talk about how when running a homebrew campaign a GM will inherently be drawing inspiration from published modules is very misguided. I got into the hobby in 2015, and started as a homebrew GM before even learning the term "homebrew", and it was a few years before I ever ended touching any published adventure content for my games. I'd imagine this experience isn't really that uncommon-- GMs not being influenced by WotC's adventure design.
The level creep in D&D makes no sense to me. Level 20 should be reached after years (decades) of in game play, and be a character nearing retirement. However, most campaigns allow them to reach level 20 in a matter of days, or months...at most.
Don't Balance the encounter - ever.
Boredom is a factor for me.
Making a level 20 character feels too much like entering a cheat code on a video game. I always lost interest after doing that.
Also, unless you nailed your character design, playing the same fellow for several years can be a drag.