Vande Sangeetam EP24 : Chintana - Ragam Thanam Pallavi
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- #nvijaysiva #vandesangeetam #music
Vande Sangeetam!
To music, I take a bow. It gives us so much, from rejuvenating our spirits and cleansing our mind, to a sense of physical well being and a definite spiritual direction if we choose. Sometime during our life, we need to prostrate before this power. We attempt here to share all that it has given us- Composers, ragas, thoughts on puranas. We also try to look at what we should do, individually and collectively, to ensure that its purity and profound beauty are passed on to the generation next.
Recorded in natural settings at Kalakshetra campus, Chennai.
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Intro Music: Sri K Arun Prakash
N Vijay Siva - Vocal
R K Sriramkumar - Violin
N Manoj Siva - Mridangam
Intro Graphics,Recording & Post Production:
Pramod Gokhale & Akshatha Gokhale
Very thoughtful and helpful reflections to call out some very meaningful distinctions. Universal agreement will not be found, but demos like this one are invaluable to help listeners (and musicians) make informed choices!
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏😍🤩👌thank you 🙏
Very honest and valid confessions of the celebrated RTP, with its pro's and con's. Many would not dare to confess that RTP's seldom evoke the elements of bhakti and surrender. Sir's concerts with RTP have had all the good elements in its right mixture never have I heard very elaborate brain taxing pallavi's from Sir but yes the complexity of the tala was always there. My namaskarams to Sir's feet 🙏
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Thank you. Beautiful presentation.Your theoretical narration interspersed with spontaneous bursts of music is always such a lovely experience!
From the perspective of a novice listener, I have to admit that my attitude towards Raagam Thanam Pallavi has been one of avoidance; it sounds too complex, not sure if I would understand enough to appreciate anything about it. Also the very idea of having to delve into mathematics in order to be able to enjoy this format of music seemed like a deterrent.
After listening to your presentation, I actually went back to youtube and listened thru a good number of ragam-thanam-pallavis... different artists, different ragas, different styles. It was a pleasant experience for me( I made no attempt to understand the mathematics behind it, just allowed music to do its job). Without this episode and my earnest need to understand what was really being discussed about, I wouldn't have probably listened to Ragam-thanam-pallavis anytime soon; so thanks a lot for accelerating my exploration of this format.
In my childhood, I remember hearing a story where Narada stakes a claim that he is the greatest devotee of Vishnu. Vishnu points him to a farmer and suggests his devotion is more than Narada. To illustrate this fact, Narada and Vishnu visit him in disguise and ask for shelter for the night. The farmer and his family end up sacrificing their meager meals to feed the guests; they starve for the whole day but still don't forget to pray to Vishnu before going to sleep. Narada isn't impressed, he claims he can starve for days and still remember to pray. Vishnu then places a pitcher filled to brim with water/oil on Narada's head and asks him to roam around for a whole day without spilling a drop.When Narada finishes his assignment, Vishnu asks him, how many times did he remember to pray during the day. Narada admits he did not pray even once as his entire focus was on not letting the liquid spill. Vishnu points out that a relatively simple task forced him to forget his prayers, whereas the farmer's family lived an extremely difficult life, and even after having to give up whatever little they had, they wouldn't forget their prayers.
I used to listen to this anecdote and contend that a task demanding precision could take up way more processing power of the brain and make people forget important things, than the general drudgery of life, which, despite causing a lot of physical pain, possibly did not take up too much in terms of the processing capacity of the brain when it came to operations like "remembering to pray".
The story somehow felt very relevant in the context of this episode. Sometimes tasks like executing an RTP that demand a lot of precision can cause human brain to get so caught up in the mathematical intricacies that the initial purpose of music....to inspire devotion or other emotions, to transport the listener to a different plane far away from the mundaneness of life could well get lost. So is the format in its core destructive to the greater purpose of music? I sincerely hope that is not the case. I did enjoy this episode, especially the musical experience it catalysed for me and I know, simply because of this episode, I will continue to browse TH-cam for many more RTPs especially the artists you have recommended. Thanks again for an enlightening demonstration.
Bang on when you said the last line...difference between proving your prowess and connecting with the Power. Amazing perspective
Well explained. Bhakti, the essence of music. Pranams.
"Proving themselves and not connecting themselves with the divine" what a realisation! Pranams to the soul which is guiding lakhs of ppl to streamline, get back to the roots and enjoy the purpose of the art... bhakti, saranaagati, moksham🙏
Vijay Siva Anna, I agree with you that most artistes don't feel bhakthi while singing an RTP. But isn't it the same with singing Raga alapana and Kalpana swaram? If somebody says they feel Bhakthi while singing or listening to Raga alapana, then they may not need a krithi at all to feel Bhakthi 😊
I have been listening to Carnatic Music for 50+ years; lately I have been wondering how and why 'Tanam' has become to be a Raga Alapana in the Tanam format. I am glad I am aligned with stalwart like you and not alone in thinking this way; you nailed it. Hopefully, budding artists listen to your comments and follow it. Regards.
Tanam is actually Madhyama kalam .
Anandam is the word. Not thom thom.
So honestly explained! Thanks Sir!
RTP evolved to please the Chief Patron and was restricted to Sadas. It was intended not for sabha. Sadas and Chief Patrons vanishing in democratisation of both politics and music-rasana, chamber concerts were being held, like baithaks of Hindustani music appreciation, which was intended to free the artists in non conformance to the cutcheri paddhati of sabha. If the patrons of chamber concerts and the artists agreed, RTP was taken for full scale elaboration-90 to 120 minutes-eka raga. Condition was it should not be kalpita-premeditated and kalpana-manodharma sangita. AIR from 1940's became the chief patron for Karnataka Sangita, which gradually programmed short time duration concerts to satisfy listeners interested in other forms of music-folk, light, theatre, devotional, cultural and cinema. Artists had to compromise both on forms and time. Sabha also took to AIR program timings observing the change in rasikas interest and investment of time and money.
Historically, Taittiriya Upanishad/Aranyakas teaching Brahman is Satya-Jnana-Ananta-Ananda, ananta and ananda was used in tanam, post prabhanda period. Later laya svaras-tom etc became choice and popular replacing anantam-anandam (to the purist, barefit of anandam).
Ragam thanam pallavi is challenging that is everyone's manodharmam still keerthanam s are the main it is thrilling item I enjoy in all concerts specially mlv present rtp with rare ragas with colour full ragamalika swarams it is very intellectual
Thanks. Finally (as a Radhika) I understood the difference between singing a kriti elaborately and a RTP. So much technicality involved. I am happy to be a listener of music from stalwarts! Bless you!!
so beautifully explained. I never knew this difference in neraval between Kriti and RTP. As for the latter half of this presentation, isn't every concert in carnatic music like that in some way where the individuality is emphasized more than collective presentation (and because of this it is more of a recital than concert). Imagine in a western music concert with 50 or so ensemble of musicians, if everybody is trying to pull the presentation in a different direction to prove his/her prowess. on rare occasions when the three/four artists on stage work in unison to bring out the best in our music it is such a treat to the ears.
Very well explained . Thank you
Very true and nicely explained.
Excellent. The apex of sabhas should note this.
very nice explanation sir. Namaskarams for all the information
Thanks for this very enlightening talk on Ragam Thanam Pallavi. Honestly, I am also one of those who always yearn to a listen to a Ragam Thanam Pallavi in a Concert.
I second your opinion 🙏
A very interesting and informative episode
With my very little knowledge I feel example should have been in the same raga for kriti & RTP for better understanding of simpletons .Both could have been kambodhi or karaharapriya.
But you have made us understand your position.Thanks
Well said Sir🙏🙏🙏
A frank disclosure on RTP. That the RTP lacks or is deficient of Bhakti ,that it is a showing-off of the
musician and that it should not be treated anymore than a Javali or a thukada. No sir, it is a much
anticipated segment of a full concert with the choice of ragas for the ragamalika swarms. What is
important is that the Thanam should establish the proximity of the raga to its veena form and not
another version in a human form,as it has now degenerated.The last point ,in my view,is the vital take
from this episode. Thank you for this observation.
Veda Paaraayanam..Anyway we are enjoying thoroughly all these episodes. Thank you Sir.
No Bhakti in RTP? No connectivity? RTP or RP or TP is development of performarative aspect of music (sadas, of patron). Goal manodharma. Objectives- expressions of kalpana-creativity; support for art form and practitioners; infotainment.
Artists excel with devotion of two kinds-one to the Brahman; second to the lakshya and lakshana. Artists in their sublime moments, becoming self effacious, denial attain divinity in the very class of music of intellectual pleasure.
Namaste Sir!
Musicians needed a platform to prove their supremacy. That must have brought the RAgam, ThAnam, Pallavi into existence. The Vocalist has all the advantages and the other accompanying artists have all the disadvantages.
The vocalist may get months or weeks to prepare the layout of the pallavi and practice thoroughly. The accompanying artists won't have an idea of what is in store for them in any particular concert.
They have to 'grab' the pallavi and its salient features and plan the part they are expected to play on the spot, on the dias.
To be honest I always admire and applaud the accompanying artists who rise to the occasion and make such a remarkable delivery.
When so much of calculations and mathematics creep into the R T P, something must move out to make space for them. Invariably it is the Bhakti element that chooses to exit when Mathematics enters.
Divinity and Drastic calculations can't coexist!
They are mutually exclusive! I enjoy more listening to simple songs (in any language I can understand) dripping with divinity than all these complicated 'battles of talents' among the 'giants' of music'.
Exactly
U can't except bhakthi or bhakthi bhava in RTP..RTP is meant only for show casing expertise in the ragam by the vocal artist and the pakkavadhiyakaaras..thats for what it is...
And it's the rasikas expectation to hear the RTPs fm an artist and to judge and enjoy at the same time..
Kutcheri is not only to showcase bhakthi bhava but also to judge viz enjoy the expertise of an artist by rasikas through RTPs..
In a concert, ellame irukanum..ofcourse, Bhakthi bhava shd play a major part of any carnatic music but adhuve carnatic music illa..
And to my surprise he left out mentioning MLV AMMA who is a doyen of RTPs..is it intentional? It seems its intentional as vijay shiva is averse with RTPs and MLV amma is known more for her RTPs ..
@@smadhavan6166 namasté Sir 🙏
A niraval can become a thAnam sung with the words of the song.
RAgA is already sung in a great detail.
So are the kalpana swaras.
The same Talent and Expertise proved in a RTP can be displayed in any keerthanai by the vocalist.
At times the matrmatical calculations become a heavy load on the artists and the audience.
The first and the essential quality of music is its sweetness.
Ingitham is sangeetham.
My hats off to the violinists who rise to the challenge spontaneously.
Maybe they deserve the center spot since they are ' on duty' all the time... except the Thani aavarthanam.
I Wish you and your family
A Happy and prosperous New Year.
@@visalakshik.raman.6278
Nice
Happy new year to u and u r family
Secondly, ofcourse, a experienced carnatic artist can bring out his best fm any thing and everything either in keerthanai or in RTPs format.
But to me, its upto the musician to bring out the best fm the format he is comfortable with
Lot of Carnatic musician like MLV has brought out the beauty and essence with bhava(as said by Vijay shiva) in both RTP and Keerthanai format in the same concert..
So, to found fault with one or the other shd not be made out off..Both got their own place in a kutcheri and finally artist has to satisfy the rasikas and rasikas coming to a kutcheri will have diff taste like in a hotel and it's the duty of the musician to satisfy all of his rasikas according to their taste of interest
And finaly, Vijay shiva is an outstanding musician with lot of in depth knowledge of music in general and more particularly carnatic music
@@smadhavan6166 We are not finding fault with anyone.
We are just sharing our opinions.
No two persons can see eye to eye and have the same opinion all the time about everything.
Musicians have to cater to all the different section of the audience.
So let them decide what they want to present and how.
Thank you for your thought provoking reply.🙏🙏🙏
if I am lucky i should learn music from you one day . just one song .
Pranams! with due respect to your vast knowledge that you exihibit in this series..I would like to share a quite interesting opinion of my father (late) Singaballur N Radhakrishnan's Guru Kunnakudi Subbaiya Bhagavathar that Thanam Rendition should be done with fullest dedication like Sama
In Navaratri Sangeetotsava of Thiruvananthapuram they sing ful krities, mrdanga tala at the time of pallavi presentation. Why not in other occasions these happen?
Thanks Vijayji.
Shiva ayya. Well explained
U are an expert. 🙏
please would like u sin ragam thallam pallavi
In kamboji my favourite
It's really an awesome episode
Nicely explained vijay, though it may be necessary or expected from a vidwan atleast once in 6 or 7 concerts just for the sake of variety of expectations from rasikas, but of course with the element of grammar which u have mentioned stuck to it.
why you are not permitting anybody to upload your concerts?
lot of people in the audience will show off their prowess by showing off their knowledge too. Almost like the fastest fingers first.:)
I agree with Vijay Shiva Sir's comment that unfortunately today the ragam thanam pallavi in concert's focus more on ragamalika swaram's and the kanakku of the pallavi rather than the tanam and neraval which should be explored to the maximum. All the past master's like MS Amma, Semmangudi Mama etc have explored the tanam and neraval to the maximum. I have listened to Madurai Mani Iyer's concert's and have observed that Mani Iyer did not prefer to do anulomam and pratilomam and did not do that kanakku in Pallavi while singing Pallavi. Mani Iyer used to sing simple Pallavi's in Kanda Triputa Taalam and Aadhi Taalam like Oraru Mugane Unadu Paadam Tunaiye in Keeravani, Sharavanabhava Guruguha Shanmukha in Shanmukhapriya etc and focussed more on neraval and tanam and did ragamalika swaram's to the minimum like just 2 ragam's like Kaanada and Shanmukhapriya. Hope the sabha's take Vijay Shiva Sir's opinion and implement this to get some good music we used to listen from yesteryear stalwart's. There are pallavi's where we can relate to it like Pradhanamanadhu Mannida Neyam Vazhvinil Anaivarukkum a pallavi in Khamas Raagam on humanity composed by Mridangam Vidwan K Arunprakash Sir and a pallavi Manam Solvadhu Anaittum Seivadhalla Suthanthiram Manasatchiyudan Nadapadai Andri in Bhairavi Ragam about the real meaning of freedom that if you do the right thing according to your conscience and do not do things according to your mind, that is real freedom, Kadhallipom Naam Anaivarum Aridhana Manidha Vaazhvai a pallavi in Mukhari Raagam again composed by Mridangam Vidwan K Arunprakash Sir . We cannot completely say that we cannot connect to Pallavi's. There are some with which we can connect. But the sad reality is that the majority is not something we can connect to. A good session.
One of my friends was thinking aloud sometime ago: why is this called Ragam, Tanam, Pallavi when everything is set to a ragam and what we actually do is an Alapana/Alapanai, Tanam and Pallavi. Won’t it be more appropriate to call it Alapana, Tanam, Pallavi? ATP instead of RTP?
Your views?
A good number of them make the anulomam Pratilomam a chaos , go off key and make a fool of themselves.
Most Inspiring and Interesting Presentation. Bringing to us the most intricate aspects of Ragam, tanam and pallavi. !! Thanks a Lot for this beautiful Blog. !!
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