Thanks for having me on, Ratatoskr, it was a blast! I wanted to make a few corrections to things I said: - Rogier explicitly says Ranni was the offspring of Rennala and Radagon, so I was wrong about that. - The Nox armor says that the Nox were banished deep underground. This could mean the Eternal Cities were aboveground and were literally placed underground, but I take it to mean that the Nox lived aboveground and were banished below, perhaps migrating to the Eternal Cities (which I believe may have been built by the Numen, or the mysterious Uhl/Uld/Ancestral Spirit people.) - I said that the Snow Witch had the Spirit-Calling Bell; this isn't stated anywhere, but I think she's the most likely candidate, because Torrent is shaggy and likes frozen Rowa, and The Snow Witch body resembles a Wraith-Caller.
Also, someone pointed out that the black flames line doesn’t occur in-game! I was going through the text dump and didn’t check the actual cutscene in-game; there is a cut line where Enia says “Black flames cover the Erdtree” but she doesn’t say it in-game.
As Ratatoskr almost said a few times, you could make some phenomenal content. This was thoroughly enjoyable, and though I love Ratatoskr’s content, I think he reeled you in too soon on a few topics that I’m now anxiously wanting you to flesh out further.
@@FormlessPBnJ Thanks for saying so! After getting the great feedback from this conversation, I’m actually playing with the idea of making a video on the Helphen and the spirit world, cuz I haven’t seen anyone even mention that, and imho it has huge implications.
A small thing I'd like to add that has me convinced that it's very likely Torrent is related to the Snow Witch is the name Torrent itself. You don't usually see the word torrent much outside of references to rain, water, or snow. It's very weather-y, and easily a fit for the kind of name someone who regards herself as a Snow Witch would be likely to pick out if she was staying on theme.
Ratatoskr, please have this guy on again; just to ramble. I know it might be confusing but I for sure believe the ramblings have a point. A couple times now I believe he's been getting to a good point to get cut off. By himself even in a few places. Specifically when it comes to it all being connected; while I believe yes it might seem like each point needs to be broken down and specified on, that isn't how Elden ring, nor life works. It's out of this world non-understanding, and I think it's also the main point. Each of the small insignificant points of contention that seem like they don't matter, they do, and when you combine them all: while absolutely mind-fuckingly out of this realm bonkers they mold into an over arcing cohesion. That tells an, albeit confusing, one complete truth; which at the end, has to be broken up into a bunch of seemingly non-connected smaller truths. Which meld together eventually.
@@ATC43 Precisely, I was yelling at my screen when they ended up passing that part up. I believe the core of the story is the struggle of balance between those two concepts. Yin & Yang.
@@CrunchyVideos At certain areas, I agree, but I believe Miyazaki has put in quite a bit of references to multiple religions & traditions. Majority of which can trace their origins to old world alchemy and occult practices. Specifically Hindu and Buddhist rituals, as well as the more obvious ones; like the golden order being a representation of the crusades, and it sounded like you definitely had the 411 on it. Still an amazing podcast though, don't get me wrong. Captivated the whole 3 hours. Would absolutely watch another with you all!
I wish I had a better way than "youtube comment" to get this across, because I really put a lot of thought into this and would hate for this to all be buried, but here are some of my thoughts on some of this: I think the game makes Marika's ultimate desire for the Tarnished pretty explicit. She wants the Tarnished to struggle in order to become strong enough to slay the Elden Beast and in doing so end the Golden Order. You mention that often times the Golden Order is talked about as something more than just an organization and I think this is correct. The Elden Beast is in fact the living embodiment of the Golden Order. I don't think most people know that there is an "Elden Beast" behind everything, but that its definitely apparent that the Golden Order is something more than just an organization, but a force that acts on the world itself. Gideon and Hewg pretty much confirm this - Hewg is imprisoned in Round Table hold to forge weapons for the Tarnished explicitly for the purpose of slaying a god, and explicity at the behest of Marika. When we kill the Elden Beast the game tells us in the biggest font it has across the whole screen "GOD SLAIN". Gideon uncovered the truth of the Elden Beast and came to the conclusion that it was an impossible task, and thus tantamount to an eternal struggle. We know that to accomplish this the Erdtree must be burnt, and for that to happen we must defeat Malekith and unleash Destined Death. I believe this is the betrayal his remembrance refers to. The one task she gave her half brother was sealing away the Rune of Death (noting that this was done at the start of the Golden Order - and likely done to ensure the safety of the Golden Order), and in the end she guided Tarnished to slay him in order to bring Death to the Golden Order. So the one task she gave him was to seal away Destined Death to protect the Golden Order from it, and then lead the Tarnished to kill him to unleash it and destroy the Golden Order with it. I cannot think of a greater betrayal. I don't believe Marika is involved in the Night of Black Knives. I also think Ranni and the Assassins were allies of convenience - she wished to use the Rune to slay her flesh and free her from the Golden Order's purview. The Assassins wanted to do some assassinating with it. Thus, Ranni used them to accomplish her aims. I believe the Assassins were working for the Golden Order and likely acting to punish Marika and her offspring for questioning it, or otherwise going against it. Ranni somehow became party to the plot and used it to further her own ends. The Night of Black Knives was the finally straw for Marika and lead to her shattering the ring, and when that failed, recalling the Tarnished in order to finally free herself and the Lands Between of the Elden Beast/Golden Order. I think its telling that its the Black Knives that come after Iji and Blaidd when Ranni slays her Two Fingers, to me this seems to imply that they seem to be working for the Golden Order. I think this is also reinforce by the Marika/Assassins/Numen connection. Marika being Numen, likely brought many Numen followers with her into the Golden Order. It doesn't seem unlikely that if Marika began to turn against the Order that some would remain loyal, I mean Radagon remained loyal, and he *is* Marika. It seems weird to me that the *BIG* piece of evidence that everyone uses to pin the Night of Black Knives on Marika is that she happens to be the same race/come from the same place as the assassins. Ostensibly so does Radagon (I tend to believe that they've always been the same person, and lean towards the "split off then recombined" branch of that theory). (This is the bit I'm least certain of) I think Melina was likely the Gloam Eyed Queen, who once wielded Destined Death and the Black Flame until she was defeated by Malekith, thus becoming "Burned and bodiless". Perhaps she somehow rebelled against the Golden Order in its early days using the power of the Rune of Death. If/how she's connected to Ranni ... I don't know, Melina is probably one of the things I have the hardest time pinning down.
I think you're right on it, the only place I differ in opinion is that, Ranni, not only wasn't involved in the planning of the night of the black knifes; but had no idea it was going to happen in the first place. It seems, that other than Melania and Miquella, she is the only one with a normal sized body like us. As well as us finding her on top(technically upside down, bottom?) of the twisted divine tower. I believe with her being an almost stillborn in the egg, Radagon gave, Rennalla it caused her soul and body to split as we see with constant other characters; and left the grace in the 'egg'. The body was returned to the Erdtree where it was revived in her father's image as tarnished; and her soul transmuted into a doll created by Renna (whom I've always thought the split version of Ranni, the grace part stuck in the Egg.) Whilst Rennalla attempted to create her a new body. She got far enough in her journey, that she had a legitimate chance to change fate. I believe the Numan are in otherworldly race of the same vein as the ancestral spirits, and if you do something that is two out of line with how destiny is supposed to be played out; fate will intervene and send something akin, but actually even stronger than the power of faith. Fate(magic,death,cold) will send a causality to keep it in check through chaos, the primordial way. While faith wants regression in the form of strict order. To keep it the same. I believe Godwyn, finding out what his half sister was going to do, and legit being a good dude; went to assist/stop her and in a two for one the Numans' burned Renna's body(the most effect way to kill an ice witch) and using the death rune seals carved out, Godwyn 'the immortals', grace in order to ensure he could not come back to life, to meddle in fate nor faith further either. When you join Ranni, you're picking up where they left off; allowing her to finish the job she had already started, and almost completed.
I agreed on you with Marika doesn't plan on night of the black knives as you can see in Ranni dialogue, she has grudge and detest on Marika and rather die than to be that things consort She's clearly against Marika but they just has the same goal to destroy golden order today I'm still think Marika grudge against grater will is shroud in mystery. I meant she has so much grudge that she's willing to die to achieve it (kill the elden beast)
I think your theory about the Black Knife assasins makes a lot of sense of Melina and the fact that she uses their moveset but with a golden hue and Golden Order incantations. It's possible she was their leader (or just a member) and was killed during or before the plot to steal the Rune of Death and so uses the old version of their weapons not imbued with Destined Death.
Melina's dialogue in the first gameplay trailer is still relevant it seems. "They will fight, and they will die, in an unending curse. For how else is a champion, or a lord, to be born?"
On the D brothers, while Darian is alive, not only Devin says nothing, doesn't move, and wears plain cloth, a magical barrier protects him from all forms of damage. It is only when you give him the Twinned Armor Set that he "activates" and goes on his revenge quest against Fia. Perhaps the Twinned Armor set houses the singular soul of the D brothers, similar to (but not exactly) how the primal glintstone houses the soul of Sorceress Sellen.
Sellia has one of those giant thrones, in the Eternal Cities they have the giant skelton sitting in them. Sellia's is empty though. You even fight a couple Nox there. So Sellia is of the same civilization as the Eternal Cities.
@@darkhobo "Below Sellia, the Eternal City of Nokron sleeps. This sorcery originates from the maiden of that place." Hmmm... my assumption is that Sellians are Noxes who moved above ground after Nokron was destroyed.
@@darkhobo Gowry is a servant of the rot god in the same way Shabriri is for the frenzied flame. Shabriri is at the same time sort of a vessel for the will of the god to inhabit corpses like Hyetta and Yura, and the incarnation of the god itself in the earth plane . It's deeply connected to the main theme of the duality always present in this game, such as with twins, marika and radagon, etc
The guest (I'm sorry I forgot your name at this moment) made alot of good points and I liked him! You can tell he's not used to this kind of talk but given time I think he'd be great to have on more discussions
Well, after having watched the whole thing, I definitely like this guy. I actually quite like this video as a whole. I think having a loosely formed discussion based solely on connections and not conclusions every so often is refreshing and really gets the viewers brain working as well. Keep up the great work!
The Elden Lord is specifically destined to protect the god incarnate. They need to be the strongest so they do not overthrow the golden order. The Greater Will doesn’t expect you to side with Ranni, this is why when you choose one of the mending runes or the fractured ending you become the Elden Lord but if you do the Ranni ending or the Lord of Frenzy you just become Lord, this is proven by your friends completing the game in the same group as you and it pops up either Elden Lord or Lord.
The Laws of Causality and Regression are probably inspired by the philosophical concepts of "Progression" (gr. pro-hodos) and "Reversion" (gr. epi-strophe). The late antique Neoplatonists considered all of reality to be derived from an ineffable One from which the multiplicity of being emanates (progression/causality) and to which all beings long to return (reversion/regression). The "One Great" mentioned by Hyetta might also be a reference to this. The One is also considered to be beyond every distinction, even beyond the distinction of Chaos (which is equal to pure multiplicity) and Order (which is equal to unity). Order is actually a force that brings multiple things into unity, because it lets them participate in a single pattern, and is thus a force of stability. Chaos on the other hand breaks down patterns and is thus a force of movement and change. I guess that the Greater Will/Two Fingers and the Frenzied Flame/Three Fingers are supposed to represent those two fundamental principles of reality (Order/Chaos), derived from a single, transcendent One Great. Problems arise when one of those poles tries to shut out the other one from reality, because being is actually founded on both unity/stability/regression and multiplicity/change/causality. The world created by the Frenzied Flame is actually a mockery of true unity, because by abolishing all distinction and order it actually removes all meaningful relations between beings and thus also removes change/births. So in a way the melted down world of the FF ending could also be considered a totalitarian order, because in its total equality it is absolutely exclusive. To impose complete equality on reality, you actually have to erect a totalitarian order.
Pretty great explanation, and you hit home the key fault in both of the fingers’ viewpoints-unity and chaos actually inter-exist and are mutually dependent on one another to create the truly ordered world. In other words, what both fingers/outer god forces fail to realize about themselves and also the other is that the principle of unity and stability on a higher level is always dependent on some form of underlying chaos/disunity on a smaller scale; The two most obvious examples are our own organic bodies, and in turn the ecosystems such bodies produce. The chaos of trillions of bacteria and cellular organisms, which while constantly warring and vying for control in their sphere of existence, spontaneously work together unconsciously to order the whole body in a way that’s hard to grasp with linear forms of thinking. In the same way, the seemingly chaotic and frenzied struggle for animals and whatever other organisms to survive within their respective ecosystems actually always balances out to create some form of pattern of stability. All this is possible through cosmic laws set by the ineffable truth of reality which in Christian terms is known as the “Logos”, and in eastern terms as “Dharma”. Something I thought was really Interesting about the FF ending in regards to the philosophical significance is, as you said, it makes a mockery of true oneness (which is perfectly represented by the ☯️ symbol of Taoism). A good way to articulate this error alchemically-as that’s such a prevalent template for understanding the inspiration and themes for Elden Ring-is that the FF conflates the massa confusa with the Prima Materia. The massa confusa is actually just one aspect emanating from the Prima Materia, which is beyond all dualistic concepts such as chaos vs order, singularity vs duplicity, light vs dark, existence vs non existence, etc.
26:12 I can confirm the chest just won’t open if you haven’t been tasked by Ranni, I went down to Nokron only for the black whetstone and couldn’t open the chest as I was running through the area, the message was that I was not fated to open the chest.
I think the will of Marika that Gideon realized is that she wants them to kill a god. He states "A man cannot kill a god" as his reason for a tarnished being unable to become lord. As if that was a recent realization to him that made him change his mind. I think he got ahead of us, went into the tree, and upon realizing he would have to defeat Radagon, or perhaps even the Elden Beast, he gave up completely. He decided that either Marika had overestimated them or perhaps it's all one big cruel joke. "Markia has high hopes for us" feels almost sarcastic. We're supposed to suffer until we complete our task, but she has faced us with an impossible task, and therefore we will suffer for eternity. I don't think Hugh liked Gideon much. Pure speculation there, but he chose US as his lord. He was forging a god slaying weapon at Marika's request, but as he comes to recognize us as his lord he starts doing it for our sake as well. I'm not so sure Gideon knew any such weapon exists. I don't think Hugh would have told him. Not if he had already decided we are his lord.
TH-cam puts a lot of ads on these podcasts so you can listen on different podcast platforms here: anchor.fm/ratatoskr Episodes are released there 1 day after TH-cam. Also these episodes are speculation and don't represent my complete views on lore. Only the things released as independent lore videos represent my views.
Now that the DLC is announced I’m rewatching all of these older videos. Listening to this discussion has reminded me just how confusing the lore of ER is truly is. I’ve thought I had it all figured out several times but then I start questioning it again. I hope the DLC will shed even a tiny crumb of grace on some of these unanswered questions.
Genuinely not a big fan of Ratatoskr constantly speaking over his guest, I'd love to continue more of the video but he's blatantly disrespectful to an invited guest. Bothersome.
It's interesting that at 1:19:20 he basically said that the whole point of Elden ring is that Marika removed fire from the alchemical equation, and now we've learned about Messmer being hidden away or banished. Very interesting
46:05 another thing that might support this is the axe Godfrey uses. When you fight his spirit, it's clearly a double sided axe, but when you actually fight him later in the game, like half of his axe is broken
@@arionerron4273 Ohhh for some reason read “Godfrey” as “Godefroy” and I was like, “Does Godefroy have a different axe compared to Godrick? 😳🤔” and then I started thinking about the possible lore implications of that 😂
@@arcanefire7511 it’s Godfrey before he becomes Elden Lord. His axe became damaged in the time after becoming lord, and he only took Serosh once he became Lord
Miriel's dialogue about the "skeleton in Radagon's closet" and the statue in the capital is the best indicator to me that Radagon and Marika may have always been the same person.
100% agree, though I'm really curious as to how miquella and malenia were conceived. They were probably different entities but in one body, and can somewhat influence each other? And also some how have children in some way? The only way i can think of that is radically in speculation is if marika had a baby with each if the outer gods, one of rot and one of order or like eternal youth?
@@Electronica27 I'm not so sure that sexual reproduction even occurs in the Elden Ring universe the way we think of it. Not even between Godfrey and Marika, something tells me it just doesn't work like that. I think its more akin to Gwyn splitting his soul, Marika's body through the power of the Elden Ring can just "produce" demigods with the "influence" of a consort but maybe not require their physical body. Its all very weird lol Gross, but remember Mohg and how he wanted to become consort. I don't think the two of them have the "proper equipment" to make children but that didn't seem to bother Mohg at all from beginning his Dynasty, and dynasty is a very specific word. He intended to create a family to hand his power down to.
There is definitely a theme with eyes in Elden Ring. Eyes are commonly called “windows of the souls.” In ER they definitely seem to be windows, but for looking out instead of in. Eyes seem to facilitate some kind of manifest or power of the outer gods (or other super natural power?) E.g. the fire giants eye, Melina’s eye, tarnished eyes and seeing grace, Ranni’s eye that links her spirit and the doll she inhabits, dragon communion eyes, furled finger eyes (for the formless mother?), Melania’s eyes are scared over with rot (are her eyes a window/portal for the rot god?).
@@gibsonmorrison9197 Good catch! You reminded me I also forgot about the most obvious example: the eyes of those with the Flame of Frenzy. Also the Beast Eye (which may be Melina’s/gloam eyed queen’s other eye that Maliketh “acquired” when he defeated her).
@@arcanefire7511 That’s why I also added “or maybe supernatural power?” It’s not a perfect theory. I haven’t really worked out all the kinks yet. The Dragon eyes could just be the first step of turning into a dragon and be a “normal” biological change unconnected to any god. Melina’s eye maybe connected to the twinbird’s & deathbird’s outergod (though how the rune of death, ghost flame, black flame, twin bird, and gloam eyed queen are connected is unclear, if they are connected at all. I definitely think that Melina has one of the gloam-eyes queen’s eyes and the beast eye we get from Gurranq is the other). Ranni’s moon may be some kind of outer god. I don’t know if her eye is connected to that (or if she is connected to Melina. They both seem to know Torrent’s former master and they both do the one eye thing, but it could just be left over’s from an earlier story draft). I just think it’s interesting that, with eyes being an obvious theme, Ranni’s possession of the doll body seems incomplete. Her spirit is shunted to one side and she is only using one of the doll’s two eyes, almost like her spirit is only connected or pinned to the doll through one of the eyes. What it all means I am not quite sure. Eyes were also a theme in Bloodborne where you have eyes as a metaphor for insight into the supernatural…but also physical eyeballs had supernatural power and having a bunch of them, especially in your brain or grafted to your body connected you to the arcane…but also maybe it wasn’t even the eyes themselves but that super natural parasites are what gives you arcane powers and those parasites just liked to live in eyeballs (e.g. Ludwig and the black sky eye). What does it all mean?
Yes; also the one-eye sigil of Gideon Ofnir, the depiction of St. Trina with one eye (on the torch), the Scar and Soreseals, Roderika having the eye hue of a spirit tuner (same as Snow Witch eye), the blindfolded prophets, the briars piercing the eyes and seeing a blood star, the blind swordsman, etc etc etc
Around 1:04:00 , it seemed like Rata brought up spirit ashes of his own accord, and then asked why his guest was trying to tie spirit ashes to what he was saying in regards to grace. I found this a pretty confusing part of the podcast.
That’s because RATotaskr spent this whole podcast trying to undermine his guest and act like he is the only authority on Elden ring lore and as if anyone else wasnt being thorough enough. Complete a$$hat if you ask me. Was a fan of him til this podcast, from now on I’ll be taking my lore curiosity elsewhere.
Consider inviting the Sinclair Podcast duo. I would love to hear what they have to share. Also, this guy is great. Hope he comes back with his point of view.
So Marika's motives... If we go with the theme of Alchemy, she is trying to create a perfect something. I suspect she's trying to create a more perfect Elden Ring, though perhaps without knowing what that is. If we look at previous Miyazaki games, as important as the player is, they're ultimately just one step along the way, one iteration of the cycle. Therefore I don't think Marika's goal is to create a perfect Lord to sire a perfect successor. As for my logic, the history of the world seems to revolve around changing and removing things from the Elden ring. If we accept that Marika is behind everything, then it follows that when she shattered the Elden Ring, she intended for someone to put it back together, which is exactly what you do. The thing is, i don't think her goal is for the normal age of fracture ending to happen. I think her goal is for the new Elden Lord she has cultivated to contribute something new. In other words, to create and use a mending rune. Any mending rune. And after that, at some point the Elden ring might be shattered again in hopes yet another mending run is applied. This cycle would go on infinitely until perfection is achieve (assuming perfection is possible, but, knowing Miyazaki, it isn't.) I do think I need a need a bit more to go on, though. Really, for me the biggest clue is that the game is titled "Elden Ring" and my simple desire for the answer tot eh question that's nagging me to be staring me in the face right in the game's title. But that aside, the idea of constantly experimenting with the make-up of the Elden Ring in the hopes of creating something new and transcendent does fit with the ideas of Alchemy very well.
I agree, but I think that perfection is possible, just not eternal. She basically wants the most competent person to mend the Elden Ring in a way that fits the current status quo the best, perfectly, as it no longer worked in the times described by the intro.
I have one wild theory about Radagon. I think he started as some sort of a successfully forged Mimic Tear to Marika. Think about it, the Silver Tear project(?) were started at Nokstellar, which was one of the 2 lost sanctuaries of the Numen, which was devised as an attempt to artificially forge a Lord. I suspect at some point Marika had realized the possibility for Godfrey to lose his grace and become unbefitting to be a Lord, so she schemed with the Numen in their Eternal Cities to forge a Mimic Tear to be a copy of herself but male so she could rule over the Land Between alone in essence. This would also make sense why Radagon was loyal to the Golden Order, since he was forged before the time Marika's allegiance with the Greater Will changed. During the time he was with Rennala, maybe Radagon had gone through a rebirth through the rune of the unborn, which resulted into him gaining his own sentience, thus then his will diverged from Marika's control. At the time he returned to Marika's side and merged with her(?), Radagon has fully developed his own sense of will, and he chose to stick with the will he had been programmed to believe in - serving the Golden Order. I really want you guys to look into this possible direction for clues and speculation, I think it's worth some investigation.
I think it's more likely that Marika was simply rebirthed through Rennala's egg into Radagon. If a mimic tear was used at all, it was to mimic Marika since the real Marika was busy being Radagon.
Some very interesting speculation here. One thing I have wondered, since we fight a couple mimic tears of ourself, and create an ashes as well… when we rebirth ourselves with a mimic tear, are we still really ourselves? Or have we essentially replaced ourselves with a copy? A mimic tear rebirthed through the Rune of the Unborn into a different copy of us?
I actually think we hear Radagon's origin in game. One of the dialogues you can get from Melina "In Marika's own words" details how she decided that blind faith to the Golden Order had grown tired and she became curious about the deepest workings of the Greater Will and their faith. It is possible that, in order to plumb those depths, she cut away that part of her that held blind devotion to the Golden Order, which became Radagon. It's the exact same idea as Malenia/Millicent. Millicent is effectively the warrior's pride that led Malenia to fight against her Rot and remain just a swordsman rather than a Goddess of Rot. She was cut away, or perhaps thrown away, by Malenia when she bloomed in her attempt to avoid defeat against Radahn. At first, when Millicent discovers what she is, she wishes to return to her "mother"/sister/other self in order to restore what was lost. But, ultimately, Millicent decides to die as herself and not return to Malenia. She has become her own person, with her own personality and goals and grown beyond being simply an offshoot of her parent demigod. I think Radagon works exactly the same way. He started as just an element of Marika that she severed from herself. But he became an entirely independent entity. The Giant's curse of red hair could even play in to this, and may even explain why he's male instead of female (as all Millicent's sisters are).
This is a fascinating idea! I've been playing with the idea of virgin birth (there are also so many associations with Biblical stories) and maybe the idea that the Numen all reproduced asexually (they seem to be all women, long-lived but seldom born). I'm not totally sure, because I think the Flame Guardian face data looks very similar to the Numen template in character creation, so it's possible there are Numen males? Not really sure-- I'll definitely think about this idea. There's also the cut content with Asimi which indicates that Asimi would actually be inside you in some sense.
I have a thought in regards to what Gideon glimpsed, what terrified him. What Marika’s vision, what her will was, was to kill the Elden Beast, the Vassal of the Greater Will. Marika is referred to as the “vision of the greater will”, and her dialogue in reference to shattering herself, well, she doesn’t mean just figuratively, but literally as well. When she shattered herself, the “vision” was broken, meaning that a specific link allowing the greater will to exert its influence was broken. The Elden Beast came down in a star, and acted as the Greater Will’s vassal, it’s representative. This star, and I think by connection, the Greater Will, was actually more of a colonizing force than anything else. The greater will needs a vassal, and the vassal itself needs a being able to enact its “vision”. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that The Great Tree existed before being claimed by the Erdtree, and Miquella rejected the Erdtree to create the Haligtree. I think Miquella and Marika were both able to figure that for whatever reason, the Greater Will was not the benevolent force it presented itself to be. In fact, it was quite the opposite: as an Outer God, and the only one that managed to get the Lands Between under its sway, it’s eliminated whatever order or logic of the world, and supplanted it’s own over it. Marika figure it all out first, and then Miquella, and finally, Gideon. So when he say a man cannot slay a god, he doesn’t mean Marika. She’s already shattered and broken, as is Radagon. But the Elden Beast isn’t, and it is a god in full.
The mending rune of the death prince states that the Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death (ie, the Rune of Death that you unleash when you defeat Maliketh), which Maliketh did when he defeated the Gloam-eyed Queen and her Godskin Apostles. Ergo, the fight between Marika and the GEQ must have been before the Age of the Erdtree and Marika's Golden Order, as her defeat is what allows its creation. It was likely a fight between two Empyreans, chosen by their respective fingers as capable of becoming the vessel of the Elden Ring, the God of a new Age and a new Order, a fight Marika won thanks to her shadowbound beast, Maliketh. It was likely also been the fight that switched it from the prehistoric Age of the Ancient Dragons (for lack of a better term, as I don't recall the game naming their Age) to the Age of the Erdtree/Golden Order. It also explains how Godwyn could be the first recorded death of a demigod in history and how Maliketh's name could mean "Death of the Demigods"--the age before the Age of the Erdtree is described as prehistoric (relating to or denoting the period before written records); Godwyn wasn't the first demigod to die EVER, he was the first RECORDED death, with Maliketh's murder of other demigod competitors to Marika's ascent to Godhood happening in a time when written record didn't exist.
Heh. Or. More simple solution. The Erdtree Order and the Golden Order are two different things. They just both worship Marika and the Erdtree. One with death, and one without. Theres even two sacred seals and Two sets of incantations. Check out the amber medallions and the Erdtrees favors medallions. There was an age of the Erdtree where sap flowed, but its over now.
I'm not sure that "confining Destined Death" = Maliketh grafting the Rune of Death into his body. That was just a precaution he personally took because he came close to losing it and was terrified of failing Marika. We are never given any indication that this changed the world state at all. The much more major event was when Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring in the first place, giving her control over death. That's more likely what's meant by "confining Destined Death".
@@LillyAnarkitty I'm still confused at to what's going on with the ruin of death. So prior to the Elden Ring did death exist as we understand it irl? What about after the Elden Beast Arrived? When he corrupted the great tree? When the Elden Ring existed as we know it, but before Markia plucked the ruin out? After she removed the ruin and fave it to Malikath? I want to say that destined Death is a rule imposed by the Elden Ring forcing dead things to stay dead, and when removed by Marika what that meant is that only her own personal assassain could permanently kill people, but is that universal? I don't think everyone everywhere was immortal during Markias reign. Does it just apply to those who receive erd tree burial? Like normally you stay dead, but if you're buried in accordance with this religion you don't really die? Unless Marika's shadow comes after you? Also what's Fia trying to accomplish? Is she just trying to put death back into the elden ring how the greater will intended?
at about 2:28:00 : its not "a tarnished can not become a lord", its "a man can not kill a god". god in this instance can refer to marika, the elden beast, or possibly even the greater will. if what marika aims to create is a lord strong enough to kill the greater will, that might be reason for gideon to be afraid…
I think it's more along the lines that the people of the lands between are incredibly devout, but upon learning the real truth and that their whole faith was a lie, they succumb to the flame of frenzy
I want you to ask about one obvious thing, what no one is talking about. We have 2 fingers of golden order and 3 fingers of chaos, combination of both give us 5 finger, whole palm of a hand, on which we can see big accent in cutscene for second phase of radagon fight, when elden beast is appears - 5 fingers goes for radagon's body. Its for the theory what everything was one, but then 3 fingers were banished and locked away deep below capital, in same way rune of death was removed from the ring. What do you think about what?
Yup absolutely right, it’s too significant to have the 2 and 3 not being originally 5. If you look at the dead 2 fingers on top of the towers, they somewhat resemble Placidusax’s body- stone skin covering gold-ish mineral inside, or possibly wood. Not sure what to make of that. I do think it may be some reference to the God Hand from Berserk, but I don’t have any strongly developed thoughts past that at the moment.
There does seem to be missing lore pertaining to the era before the Golden order that could help give a better understanding of things which I hope they give us in the dlc
I think the speech Melina gives before she burns the Erdtree is actually a spell created by Marika that transports the Tarnished to Farum Azula. It's told Melina by Marika as though it's a prophesy relating to her, which it is, but not in the way she thinks. She's the flame in the prophesy/spell, she refers to herself as burned and bodiless and she literally burns the Erdtree by first burning herself. You've "walked alongside" her the entire game up to this point. Once she's finished the tree burning ritual you're transported to the "road of Destined Death" ie the path to the Rune of Death. The Great Bridge up to Maliketh even looks like a road. The prophesy also holds true for all endings too although with the Frenzied Flame ending the flame referred to is the Flame of Frenzy rather than Melina, all other endings Melina is still with you. The only problem I have with this theory is why you don't need to recite Marika's words when you do the Frenzied Flame ending, it's possible though that the tree burning process is the necessary part and the Cauldron has been blessed or enchanted by Marika to transport you and so the words are unnnecessary.
I have assumed that tarnished are analogous to arturian knights. The heroes of the past who are destined to come back when they are needed the most. Their base is called the ROUNDTABLE Hold. As such I disagree with viewing the Lands Between as the afterlife because it's their true place to belong, the place where they are trully alive unlike the outside where they are hunted and killed (Hoarah Loux in the intro, Fia's dialogue).
I think they’re playing with both ideas in the game-Lands Between as afterlife and as the true home of the Tarnished. In my head the former is more thematic than literal
I actually started the game under that assumption, and when I first got to roundtable hold, the FIRST thing I saw was the Green Knights giant fucking ax slammed into the table.
Ratatoskr, you should talk with Sinclair Lore about some of these subjects. Sophie and Sin (mostly Sophie) have some pretty in depth analysis, and I think each of ya’ll would benefit from a discussion with each other.
2:06:10, I personally believe that Ranni "planted" the fragment of the Rune of Death on Godwyn to use him to foil the Assassins. The Assassins, tasked as a last line of defense should Maliketh fail, would follow the power of the rune, so they chase whoever they sense has its power on it, first they killed Godwyn, beliving him to be the thief, and then started chasing Ranni herself when they discovered the the stolen fragment was split. That way the relation between Marika, the Assassins, Ranni and Godwyn makes way more sense. 22:00 by your reasoning, Gostoc too should be an Onyx Lord because of his neck, along with all the servants within Stormveil and Leindell 1:11:57 you counted 8 types flames in the game, and the eye has 8 dots, maybe that's that? maybe there is an outer god of all type of flames?
Weirdest Detail about Godfrey/Serosh, is after Godfrey slays the beast, Serosh's hand mirrors Godfrey's own in motion, so there's some type of spirit absorption or link, as if Serosh was *part of him* (almost like his own shadow beast ala Blaidd/Malekith) and that his death is what's needed to let Godfrey finally let loose as Horah Loux
Here's my comment for Ratatoskr hopefully commending my intuition down the line. Marika's motivations revolve entirely around trying to find meaning within her own world. Everything she does to change the golden order and to court powerful husbands and have godlike children. She's looking to create a world with meaning because she struggles to see it for herself as the god of the world. She is close enough to the greater will to understand more about it than anyone else and the part that she's missing is the ardent and full belief that Radagon demonstrates in the Greater WIll. Marika just wants the world to have a purpose, and this flaw with reality drives her to do anything.
Radagon a mere champion having a great rune of the elden ring itself before the shattering and before marring marika is the biggest evidence they've always been the same being because otherwise raykard ranni and radahn can't be considered demigods let alone radahn being the strongest one
@@RoyalMudcrab Renalla's kids being adopted is intended to be a cover story, as people were supposed to believe that Radagon and Marika were separate beings.
Not necessarily; Enia says that the demigods are all the direct offspring of Queen Marika. But in Radahn's Great Rune, it says "Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika." So there's an implication that someone can be retroactively made a demigod. Plus, Enia is pretty sus.
@@CrunchyVideos it's the status and the prevailing of being from the royal family it doesn't at least to me that they weren't demigods before it's just the public story, all finger readers are sus but were they ever wrong in anything? Enia literally tells you marika was the one who shattered the ring something you won't know until the end of the game and none of characters in the game knows it either so I don't see a reason why not to take her word for granted
I think one of the main "reasons" that Elden Ring both feels easier to grasp than previous FromSoft games, but also when you sit down to try to grapple with the lore ends up having so many more unknowns comes back to how character focused so much of it is, and then human nature when it comes to interfacing with people. You see the characters, you see how the characters talk about each other, you see the effects from the characters on others, etc and the part of you that is used to navigating complex human society goes "yup, got the main points, this seems like a navigable situation" because in real life we don't need to know the full minutia of everyone around us to function. So it's like the vagueness is vague in just the right ways to trick our brains into feeling like the lore is accessible while shrouding so many of the specifics.
And it's really good for giving us a sense of who the characters are, even as we know so little about what each character did specifically, or what order things were done in. I think that's part of why the whole suspicion about Marika being involved in the Night of the Black Knives is so popular: there's some lore that may hint at it, but really it *feels* like something Marika might do, and thats basically the same as saying that she did it to a human brain haha.
Two things. One, green and blue were under the same word in Japanese until very recently. The distinction came with Midori separating green from blue. Two, the Altus plateau is absolutely drained of life. Only pioneer species like birch are scratching out a living. The Erdtree, lacking war feeding it strong bodies, likely sucked the very essence out of the soil. Burning the tree would spread nutritious ash to the minor erdtrees and seeds. Also the rune in the amber egg might be from the previous, dragony, set of rings? It is 'preserved' in amber?
Placidusax being the storm lord of the hawks in stormveil just doesn't make sense thematically, what could be possible is the the hawks serve the dragons, as we do find a few hawk in Farum Azula right in front of an ancient dragon, additionally we find banished knights in Farum, and also, the banished knight helm is adorned with a small dragon figure, but otherwise, the Dragons have their own flying city, what would tie them to stormveil?? To me it's more likely that the original lord of stormveil was a great hawk, in service to the dragons of farum Azula, and that Farum Azula may have once floated over limgrave (the majority of sky ruins we find are in Limgrave), with stormveil being a place that connnects the two areas, maybe with a now destroyed portal. When Godfrey bested placidusax his god fled, and Farum Azula started crumbling and floating away, possibly because of their god's abandonment
26:30 crunchy is correct, it is dependent on Ranni’s quest line. I went to the chest after defeating radahn but before speaking with Ranni and was met with that message about “fate”.
The “beast siblings” Blaidd and Maliketh are Shadows, being created by a demigod’s personal Two Fingers to guide an Empyrean. It’s a whole thing but a lot of the details are dropped when Ranni is the small doll in Ainsel. Shadows are considered step sibling for their shared “parent” the Greater Will. Two Fingers have the power to make beasts and you fight one as a red invader in Ainsel (it looks like Blaidd). Ranni’s Two Fingers was directly trying to assassinate her for a while. It also explains why Blaidd goes nuts. He’s good at heart and wants to support Ranni as a brother but he’s “programmed” to serve the Two Fingers, not kill it. So he snaps. It’s implied Shadows are given to Empyreans shortly after they’re recognized for their status. Which left me wondering if Malenia and Miquella have shadows of their own (dlc maybe).
I think due to their rejection of the greater will their shadows most likely would have gone insane. It is also possible though that Malenia is Miquella’s shadow. There is a text that mentions that Blaidd is the blade of Ranni. This has a striking resemblance to Malenia being referred to as the blade of Miquella. Made me kind of see her as his shadow, maybe acting as shadow now they both lost their shadows.
@@mattwebb563 I think this is an awesome train of thought but I unfortunately think it's wrong. All of the Shadows distinctly have some relation to Beasts, which have some unclear importance to the Elden Ring. More directly, the Shadows aren't considered on the same level as demigods, which Malenia is. Morgott refers to Malenia during his cutscene along with Miquella, calling them the "Twin Prodigies". I think they were actually just straightforward twins. I agree that their shadow(s) must be insane by now if not dead. Still, could be fun to see them in a future update/dlc. Then again there's soooo many things I'd want to see in dlc I don't think it's possible we'll get it all.
@@solomon9655 Yeah sorry I don’t. Mean she is literally his shadow. I simply mean, having no shadows (since they rejected the Greater Will), she is acting as his shadow. As she sees him as the only true Empyrean worth becoming a god, she rejected her own claim to godhood and acts as his “shadow” instead. I think the “Blade of Ranni” line is meant to invoke a comparison, but she isn’t literally a Shadow in the proper sense. However that is of course before she becomes the goddess of rot. All bets are off now
As for Godfrey killing Serosh, Serosh was always an inhibitor on his frenzy for battle. By the time you get Godfrey to half health, even Serosh is going wild. He wants to fight. And at that point, there isn’t any point for Godfrey to have Serosh. So he killed him. There’s a pattern of Beast Folk being betrayed, and also betraying. The shadow bound beasts act as assassins if Empyreans go against The Greater Will. Marika betrayed Maliketh. Godfrey betrayed Serosh (by killing him, obviously).
Gideon's dialogue during his boss fight is confusing, and might be a case of mistranslation. However, I think there is a way to interpret it that makes sense if we take a broader view. The first strange thing he says is "None may take the throne." Obviously, the Elden throne has been occupied before, by Godfrey, so this on it's face is a contradiction. The word 'throne' could be figurative, so he's saying 'even if you become Elden Lord, you will never fully be in control, the throne itself and the position of Elden Lord are a sham.' Next he says "Marika has high hopes for us, that we struggle unto eternity." I don't think the eternity he refers to the current state of affairs in the lands between, I think it's more like, "Even if you do become Elden Lord, you will still have to struggle to maintain your order, and even so, your order will inevitably fall into decline." He's referring to the endless succession of ages going into the future should the Elden Ring continually be repaired. I think he's lying here, he says it with a kind of ironic twinge. I think he glimpsed the will of Queen Marika and is actively going against it. But I'll get back to this. "A tarnished cannot become Lord, a man cannot kill a God." The first part is a reiteration of "None shall take the throne." The second part "A man cannot kill a God." Well, he's kind of correct, isn't he? When you defeat the Elden Beast, the screen says GOD SLAIN. I think this is misleading. The Elden Beast and Elden Ring are the same entity, this is clear from the Elden Stars item description. When you defeat the Elden Beast, you haven't killed him literally, you've put the Elden Ring into a state where it can be repaired. But the consciousness of the Elden Beast is still alive, and will come to life the next time a champion comes to challenge it. Now back to Marika's motivations. I don't think that Marika shattered the Elden Ring simply because the Golden Order needed to change or she needed a new consort/new children. The Golden Order has changed before, she's gotten new consorts before without it being shattered, so I don't think these are the reasons. I think Marika shattered the Elden Ring in an attempt to rid the world of the Elden Beast once and for all. This is why she exhorted Hewg to make a weapon that can kill a God, and why he was so caught up with his task and treated it like some impossible conundrum, because it is. Now we come to the "End that cannot be." Gideon was searching for ways to destroy the Elden Beast for good, and found that the only way to truly get rid of it was the Frenzied Flame. The Frenzied Flame ending is the "End that cannot be." This is why Gideon wants us to struggle for eternity, to continually remake the ring, struggle to create and maintain order for eternity, because it's the only alternative he sees to the Frenzied Flame consuming the world. If you've made it to the end, thank you for reading.
An interesting idea. But logically, wouldn’t that mean that he’d not stand in your way unless you had the frenzied flame in you? That’s the only issue I have with your analysis. I agree that Merika is trying to kill the Elden Beast (personally I think she’s actually trying to kill herself and the Elden Beast is standing in the way of that). I think Gideon is arrogant and assumes that no one can create a new order after Merika’s meddling. I still stand firm that Merika is a dirtbag. Her actions make the most sense as a petulant person. First she becomes vessel of the Elden Ring and starts a campaign to conquer everyone else (which is not necessary as the Dragons and Radagon indicate that Order doesn’t require enslavement) and impose her rule over everything. She wants to rule. Then she sends Godfrey away so she can have full control but keeps him in her back pocket as a contingency. I believe she manifested Radagon as an aspect of herself to fulfill the role previously served by Godfrey but giving her more control. She calls him back to birth an Empyrean entirely derived from herself. Again to maximize control. However, she felt him beginning to gain more strength, which scared her. This fear grew into paranoia that exploded when the gloam-eyed Queen, supported by an instance of the fingers, tried to overthrow her. She sealed destined death away to prevent the natural transition of the ring (which was built in to the ring itself). But used Maliketh to control death herself. However, the fingers didn’t give up on resuming the proper order of replacing the vessel. At least one instance reached out to Ranni. This led to her orchestrating the black knives incident (I don’t think Marika planned that). This led to Marika completely losing it. She decided if she couldn’t rule then no one would. She shattered the Elden Ring in an attempt to kill herself, but failed. She had Hewg strive to create a weapon that could kill her as a fail safe. Then she began to call back the tarnished in an attempt to maximize the possibility of someone killing her. I don’t believe she determines who sees Grace. She might have the ability to withhold it entirely from people but I don’t think she ultimately controls it. I think that is actually the Greater Will. Logically, she would want as many tarnished as possible to see grace (to maximize the number of potential assassins) but very few actually do (and you are the only one who never loses it). This implies the grace has been specifically given to specific people for some more esoteric purpose. Perhaps the Greater Will recognizes your character specifically as the key figure in this melodrama, whether you choose to maintain its order or not.
@@SorryFace The simplest reason why Gideon fights you is because he himself wants to become Elden Lord. He says at the roundtable "We both intend to become Elden Lord, and stand before the Elden Ring..." So I always suspected you would eventually have to fight him. It could be that Gideon simply gave up hope in restoring the Elden Ring. This is a recurring theme in Souls games, characters losing the will to go on. If we assume the default ending is the age of fracture, it could lend credence to Gideon's hopelessness, since in this ending, the Elden Ring isn't fully repaired. That's probably the simplest way to interpret his dialogue, by assuming he's talking about the age of fracture and his hopelessness in the face of that. I've always been skeptical of Ratatoskr's idea that Marika was part of the conspiracy that killed her own son. It's more likely Marika shattered the Elden Ring in response to Godwyn's death. Ranni did it to slay her own mortal flesh, and Rykard helped because he was against the Erdtree. It all adds up. With regards to Grace, I would disagree with Crunchy and say that Grace is distinct from runes. Grace is always described as a light, and has strong associations with nobility and Godhood. The intro tells us that tarnished are "guided by Grace," however I don't think you meet any other tarnished in the game who can see Guidance of Grace besides yourself. They either lost the ability to see it, like Rogier, or were never able to in the first place. I think this is a 'Chosen Undead' type of situation. Your character is the one tarnished guided by Grace. Whatever will of Marika exists in the land has chosen your character specifically to be the champion.
@@CrowsofAcheron Gideon fearing the age of fracture does make the most sense. He doesn’t seem to know the mending runes exist. As for grace being the Will of Marika, I’m still not sold on that. I agree that the player character has specifically been singled out, but grace (or whatever controls it) clearly has its own agenda. Margot is “grace-given” and seems to have powers derived from the same light. However he opposes your quest. It could be that he was selected to try and maintain order after the shattering and once he becomes obsolete he can be defeated. But it’s not made clear. Grace could be the equivalent of the body’s immune system, taking measures to put out fires in the system as best it can. It only follows its programming and can’t recognize when it creates conflicting solutions.
The ruin of death symbol is present in the version of the Elden Ring located in Farum Azula, down the middle dead center. Which makes me believe that the the version in Farum Azula is the full Elden Ring and the one on the title screen is that of the Golden Order with the rune of death as well as possibly others removed from it.
@@CrunchyVideos nah man I took a snap of it and had it full screen 65” in 4k, it’s dead center in the middle of the symbol in Farum Azula completely clear to see. It’s where all the circle intersect
Was fire removed from the Golden Order because it routinely destroyed the spirits that had returned to the Erdtree? Maybe there's a capacity to the number of spirits that the Erdtree can contain; eventually, by removing the fire, the tree becomes overgrown and bloated. Additional trees have to be seeded in order to contain the excess souls. This could be why the tree doesn't burn until the rune of death is restored; the spirits literally can't burn until they are able to die. Perhaps Merika realized that, while her age was indefinite by removing destined death, the ensuing age would become bloated and overburdened and more and more people died. She was behind the conspiracy and burning the Erdtree after realizing that there was nothing to gain by continuing this age. The flame of frenzy feels that life is not worth living. By burning the tree entirely the the ground, death of the body is also death of the soul. It's the difference between a necessary controlled burn to stabilize an ecosystem and a destructive, all-out forest fire.
I do believe Ranni was in the egg that Radagon gave to Rennala and Ren just raised Ranni even though they were not related. This would explain why Ranni is an Emperyan as she was just birthed of Radagon. I think that ER has gnostic themes as well as alchemical and Ranni is supposed to be like what Christ in the Gnostic tradition. In Gnosticisim Jesus was sent by Sophia to save humanity from the Demiurge. Writing this makes me think that Godwyn might be a male child that Marika created herself through an egg like Ranni. That last part is just speculation and maybe is directly disproven through some item description. It would just fit thematically if Marika had a son by herself while Radagon had a daughter by himself.
And yet it exactly mimics the guidance of grace that originates from some SoGs. And it just so happens to link two foes who are clearly fated to face each other in combat. The Guidance of Grace led us to Godfrey, and it led Godfrey to us. A final battle for the Elden Throne.
I always kind of assumed that Godwyn wasn't the intended target on the night of the black knifes, because it doesn't quite make sense for Marika to kill her son. I'm not sure who could have been the target, maybe Marika herself? and Godwyn got in the way?
Though I think it's clear Marika was the mastermind of the Night, this bothers me as well. Best I can figure is that Godwyn is too perfect an heir. If The Shattering is the goal, and it clearly is, then Marika wants/needs her children to war. To pit their ambitions one against the other in mortal combat and see who emerges the strongest and most worthy. Perhaps Godwyn is a threat to that vision. Perhaps he's so, blindingly and obviously perfect as the heir to the Golden Order that his personality or position would stem any conflict before it starts. That he's so respected in the Lands Between, and by his siblings, that he could end the war simply by asserting his birthright.
Godwyn was the first of his line and an exemplar for the golden order. Killing him could be symbolic for your disdain for a system you're forced into like when you need the blood of a maiden for Varre.
Has anyone mentioned or noticed that the summoning pool statue resembles the people crucified throughout limbgrave, and not the statue of marika specifically? Not sure if it means anything, but I find it odd and wonder if it means anything
This podcast is so good. Sharing thoughts, meetings of minds. Not to kiss ass but this channel feels like it's worlds ahead of everyone else when it comes to working toward true comprehension of Elden Ring.
There are phantom animals and trees in the evergoals in the snow area. I also do think the rune of death does look like a flipped over elden ring/ marika logo. Just without the rings. More so the bottom of them top but it for sure is similar. Not sure what that means but I see it.
im stuck on a detail. it really has dug into my mind and i just can't let it go. The Three Sisters. the name of the region where Ranni's, Renna's, and Seluvius' Rises are located. it seems to me that seluvius has moved in and claimed the other one as him... and idk, but my intuition, my line of thinking... what if that was melina's rise? all the talk of twins in the game, and the curses of all of the demigod children... imagine triplets? it may not be anything... but thats where my speculation goes. i know its not really evidence driven... just that gut feeling.... im sticking my flag into the ground that melina, ranni, and renna (the gloam eyed queen) are a set of triplets. lets go dlc! make me wrong!
Melina has wrong hair colour tho, her's is like chestnut. All the Radagon/Renala children were redheads (as if we needed more reasons to be attracted to Ranni, damn)
Great video. 2 small criticisms. Rat, you tend to jump in a speak over your guests when you get excited. It would be a less frustrating listening experience if you try to avoid that. Also, in the first hour, ads every ten minutes is a bit much. Get your money, but it doesn’t create a good listening experience.
It feels to me like Elden Ring as a whole is a critique of Alchemy and the idea that we can decide what the good part of things is and separate that from the bad or useless parts and get something better. The best hand is a five fingered hand, but they separated them into the two fingers (who can point, but not really grasp) and the three fingers (who definitely can grasp). Leyndell presents itself as the pinnacle of refinement, superior to the misbegotten and the demi-humans pushed to the fringes, while throwing all its malformed children into the basement. I think the point is for the player to come to the question, "what even is the point of all this?" Because all this alchemy doesn't actually make anything better. Progress is a myth. Refinement is a myth. And the more you seek it the further you get from the actual good.
The cutscene after defeating Maliketh definitely does NOT mention the Erdtree burning with black flame. Just dropping this comment now as I've gone to double check. Enjoying the podcast so far though. EDIT: That section about Ranni and Melina was just fascinating. I'm pretty exhausted by people who think they are the same, and yet that was the most compelling argument I've heard yet. It also implies that Marika and Ranni really could've been in cahoots not just about the NotBK, but pretty much every event that takes place involving those two + Melina. And yet after all this brilliant conjecture, we're still missing some vital thread that ties this all together. Ratatoskr, I must say I'm in the same boat as you mentioned in the beginning of the video - I've read everything and I just can't quite make it all make sense.
Wow thanks for the correction! I was going through the text dump and didn’t check the actual cutscene in-game; there is a cut line where Enia says “Black flames cover the Erdtree” but she doesn’t say it in-game.
@@CrunchyVideos ah, I didn’t realize it was cut! Hm so we can’t take it as cannon, BUT… seems that was the intention. There’s definitely a little bit of black flavor to the color the Erdtree is burning at the end of the game, but it doesn’t look similar to the black flame we know. Here’s a hypothesis: what if, when Maliketh seals away destined death and this takes the power of the black flame away, that also drains it of its color? What if the flame we see released in the post-Maliketh cutscene is the TRUE color of the godslaying black flame, and what we see during our adventure is the muted, powerless version? Total conjecture, but a possibility!
@@TheBlaringBlue Yeah that’s where my mind’s at. That actually just triggered some thoughts; both the eclipsed sun and the somber smithing stones are described as “drained of color”. Possibly also related to the “leaden” black moon of Nokstella. Connection maybe?
@@CrunchyVideos This drained of color idea also potentially adds some additional context to Iji's death. He's surrounded by Black Knives, yet his body does not burn in red/black death flame, but in Godslaying blackflame. We've never seen the Assassin's wield the godslaying flame because their knives are imbued with a fragment of death. However, this still doesn't really lay out why he's burning in blackflame and not death flame. Lastly, both death flame and blackflame work similarly mechanically - they each tick your HP down extra after being hit. The blackflame doesn't reduce your max hp because as we've already established, it's not at full power.
@@TheBlaringBlue I assume by death flame you mean the red effect of Maliketh’s blade and the Black Knives? Because there is also death flame that’s gold and black, from the Eclipse Shotel.
"O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half." This line relayed to us by Melina always gave me the impression Marika chooses Radagon for her marriage (consort, merging partner, whatever) based on his position. She has absolute power over him. He's proven himself in battle and is absolutely loyal to the Golden Order. Which Marika houses physically in her body via the Elden Ring. A state bestowed upon her by the Greater Will. Radagon is brilliant in battle, an academic, completely faithful to the Golden Order. Marika chooses him because he can't refuse her. It would go against everything he has fought for and believes in. Marika only has to say the word and he comes running to Leyndell. He may hate it, but he can't refuse the call.
It makes me wonder... Follow me for a second. So Empyreans get Shadows. Marika's empyrean shadow is Maliketh. Ok. But what if Marika could or did get a different shadow when she ascended and became a God? Now as a God she gets a higher order of Shadow. She gets to upgrade. She gets Radagon. "Lean Hound of the Golden Order" I believe Marika calls him. ( or maybe because she banished Maliketh to Faram Azula, so she needed a "new" one. Either way.)
I believe Radagon was ALWAYS Marika to begin with, being the male aspect of Marika as Trina is the feminine aspect of Miquella. I think Marika became Radagon in order to bring the Carian family under the golden order. The children born of Radagon and Renalla being demigods because they’re technically of Marika’s stock (Radagon IS Marika). Radagon being called back to Marika to become elden lord is just her returning to her female form. In my game the line calls him “mine other self” not “mine other half” but I’ve heard quite a few people claim the line is half rather than self, which is pretty confusing but I wonder if it’s a localization issue.
@@christiancannon4774 i seem to recall they "became demigod stepchildren" when radagon married marika. to me, this implies that ranni etc were not demigods from birth, but somehow radagon becoming a god made them demigods after the fact. tho i dont remember where that is said; i think it was ranni…
Tbh thought this was going a diffferent route. I think this line 100% confirms radagon being separate from marika, and that the secret talked about in the preceptor mask = something different. Radagon is a different person, and when he becomes one with marika, there are actions in conflict with one of those 2 parties consistently -As if two agendas are being fulfilled separately, and in conflict with eachother.
@@jonathanbusche8093 yeah, I started with the quote verbatim so that there would be no question as to what I was referring to. Radagon was most certainly a completely separate individual. The mask description actually never mentions a secret, just that "all of their matters were to be kept strictly private" My assumption there is that Radagon wanted his life with Renalla and their children to be isolated from Leyndell and prying eyes.
I haven't seen anyone posit it yet pretty much anywhere, but my theory about Radagon's origins and why he already has an Elden Rune is that Marika used the Great Rune of the Unborn to split Radagon off from her. I think this fits both the lore and the alchemical parallels (to my knowledge; I know only the bare minimum about alchemical stuff). For one thing it solves why Radagon had the Great Rune of the Unborn to begin with. The Great Rune's item description explicitly states that it is the amber egg that Rennala clutches. Miriel's dialogue on Rennala states that Radagon bequeathed the amber egg to her, likely when they divorced. This isn't explicitly stated but it doesn't make much sense to have happened later, and it couldn't have happened after the Elden Ring was shattered because after that Marika/Radagon were trapped inside the Erdtree and couldn't freely leave to give Rennala gifts. This then suggests that Radagon gave Rennala the Great Rune of the Unborn when they separated, which in turn suggests that Radagon already had the Great Rune of the Unborn long before the Elden Ring was shattered and Great Runes became available to those strong enough to take them. Why would Radagon have had the Great Rune of the Unborn before the Elden Ring was shattered, and why wouldn't it be part of the Elden Ring before the Shattering? I think the answer to those two questions is that Marika already split it off from the Elden Ring and used it to create Radagon. This interpretation would help answer some questions about Radagon's children. For one thing, it would explain why Ranni could be an empyrean. If Radagon was always a split off part of Marika then he was always a god (even if he happened to not be one at the time he married Rennala), and thus his children would be semi-divine as well. This also explains why Rennala's children count as demigods even though the text says they were merely adopted into the Golden Lineage: they were secretly always part of the Golden Lineage. Lastly, I think it largely explains why Radagon and Marika's children are cursed: it's basically the result of divine incest (or selfcest in this case). Incest usually has negative ramifications, something that is especially true from GRRM's A Song of Ice and FIre, and it would make sense thematically that the children of two gods who were fundamentally the same person would have the highest potential divine power but would also be marred by their incestuous nature. In real life the effects of incest usually manifest in physical or mental illnesses or deformities passed down from regressive genes from the parents that were carried on by a lack of genetic diversity (I think: I'm a history guy, not a scientist, so if I'm wrong please tell me), whereas here the incest is divinely-inspired rather than physically, so the nature of Miquella and Malenia's deformities are also divine rather than strictly physical (though they definitely both have physical deformities as well). This interpretation also plays into some of the alchemical subtext. Radagon's marriage to Rennala, and his children with her, represent new variables Marika could add to the Elden Ring since their pairing had the potential to result in new empyreans. In addition, it fits my understanding of the general theme of the rebis: that you start with an imperfect whole, split it into the Red King and the White Queen, and then join them back together with the power of a dragon. So you start with Marika alone, she uses the Great Rune of the Unborn to perfectly rebirth herself into a second body, then they both do their own things and then eventually reunite through the power of the Elden Ring, which also take the form of the Elden Beast which overall looks and acts quite draconic. As I said, I haven't seen anyone else posit this theory and it makes the most sense to me in terms of Radagon and Marika's relationship. I could definitely be wrong about some stuff because it's been a month or two since I've played or thought about Elden Ring, but what do you think? Plausible or no? EDIT: Also, on the subject of the Night of the Black Knives and the Game Awards story trailer, I think it's important to remember that the trailer itself might be canon but not accurate. The narrator of the trailer is Ranni, a character who introduces herself by lying to the player and giving a fake name, and is also someone who helped plot and perpetrate the Night of the Black Knives. Already I think the story trailer's dialogue must be seen as suspect because Ranni presents herself as a storyteller explaining the history of the Shattering, but conveniently fails to mention the fact that she's behind it all (or at least one of a number of conspirators behind it). She's already leaving out some information, so it wouldn't at all be out of character for her to leave out more information. EDIT 2: On the subject of empyreans, I don't think Ranni is related to the Gloam-eyed Queen. The lore speaks of the Gloam-eyed Queen as an ancient, potentially mythological figure, an old enemy of Marika's who was defeated long ago. Ranni's birth is relatively recent, as she was born of the union of Radagon and Rennala. I could see Rennala having been around before the rise of Queen Marika since she appears to be thousands of years old, but I don't think Radagon existed before Marika claimed the Elden Ring and became a god, and without Radagon there is no Ranni. Ranni also does not appear to have any connection to blackflame: she stole Destined Death from Maliketh and imbued the Black Knives with its power, but the Black Knives don't appear to have any connection to black flames. Instead they shoot red-black laser blades in the same way that Maliketh's Black Blade does. I don't think there's any connection there, though given how convoluted Elden Ring's lore is I could certainly be wrong. It seems most likely to me that the Gloam-eyed Queen was an empyrean candidate before the Age of the Erdtree and that she was in contention with Marika to become the new god. We know of at least two gods of the Elden Ring: the nameless god whom Placidusax was Elden Lord for, and Marika. It therefore stands to reason that before Marika's age as god of the Elden Ring there would have been a different god of the Elden Ring and that Marika would have been an empyrean candidate of the Two Fingers with the purpose of replacing that god (it's also possible there was another unnamed god in between Placidusax's age and Marika's, but that's baseless speculation). If we assume that that's true (if you can find me evidence against that theory then I'll be glad to know it), then it makes sense that there would be other empyreans chosen by other Two Fingers who would have opposed Marika and attempted to become god of the Elden Ring themselves. The Gloam-eyed Queen appears to have been one of the most powerful empyreans (she did, after all, lead an immensely feared cult of god-murdering sadists) and was probably the most likely candidate to become the new god of the Elden Ring had Marika and Maliketh been defeated. The overall sense that I get from the Elden Ring and the Two Fingers / Greater Will is that at some point in each god's reign the Two Fingers / Greater Will decides that a change in divine leadership is in order, for whatever reason (AFAIK we don't know this). Following this, a bunch of divine empyreans are born, each Two Fingers champions one, and they have sort of a Holy Grail War kind of thing, just with guardian beasts (i.e. Blaidd or Maliketh) rather than summoned Heroic Spirits. Because of this I don't think the Gloam-eyed Queen is all that important in the grand scheme of things. She's an ancient empyrean who lost her battle, and her circumstances (assuming my theory is correct) inform us about how empyreans are selected to become gods and what kinds of people follow empyreans, but she's not actually a super important person. It's possible that Melina is the Gloam-eyed Queen but I don't think it's super relevant to the plot or anything. If she is the Gloam-eyed Queen then it would be another case of Marika giving birth to an empyrean, which she's done quite a bit of already, but I don't think it would be a huge revelation for Melina's or Marika's character one way or the other.
my interpretation of the black-haired woman in the Frenzied Flame ending was that it was Ranni and Melina united (she has Melina's face but the same black hair Ranni has when you find her at the finger corps). With the idea of "the fire puts things (back) into a confused mass, that would make a LOT of sense.
On the "red king" associated with the sun and the "white queen" associated with the moon. That must then become one. 1:30:25 Could this possibly have to do with Radagon and Rennala? Rennala is obvious but Radagon seems to be constantly trying to mix incantations and sorcery, most of his attacks are golden light based attacks. Flaming Red hair, lots of fire and sun imagery. A reason for Radagon to leave that union could be an incompatibility with Rennala. Unable to unify(become one), Marika offers to have him be the next Elden Lord, and he interested in creating a more perfect union accepts. Or at least my thought process behind this.
Only flaw: what does a titanic Elder Dragon need with a human sized/shaped castle? And if Godfrey already defeated the king of all dragons, why is anybody impressed when Godwyn fights Fortisax to a standstill later? Or, alternatively, if the Godwyn/Fortisax fight happened first, why does anybody remember it when Godfrey scored an even bigger win later?
@@brentgarrison6245 I forget where, but its stated Fortissax attacking the capital initiated the war. And its remembered for two key reasons. 1 is it's the first and only time the capital walls were actually brought down, and 2 that the friendship kicked off the ancient dragon cult. Both important events
The biggest evidence for Radagon being Merica all along, to my mind, has always been that it’s more narratively interesting from a storytelling perspective. Them being separate is just … flatter. Love the discussion.
@@PowerfulSkeleton given there isn’t a lot of evidence either way, I think it’s plenty solid evidence. As a writer myself we tend to go with the most interesting option.
@@PowerfulSkeleton it is but also there is a reason authors keep repeating themes throughout history and it’s not because they are bad at writing stories.
@@Arsenic7 I don't know what to do with the argument that a vague story point is going to be one thing because it's the most interesting option to a slice of other writers in the audience. I wish you all the best in your narrative endeavours, nonetheless.
I just started listening so this might be addressed later on but alchemy wasn't at all a materialist endeavor, that's completely wrong. Alchemy is the conjunction between the actual and the ideal, the bringing forth of higher planes, as above so below. Later part of it became chemistry but the process which alchemists were most interested into was the refinement of the soul. You should talk with Max Derrat on alchemy, he's looked much into it in the past years
You must have chuckled hearing later when he actually mentions Max Derrat. I am loving these philosophical and cryptoscientific breakdowns of the series from TH-cam content creators
This is my third time listening to this and the dude makes hella sense.... the erdtree is sort of this vacuum archive that carries the memories (souls) of the entire world.
I don’t have much to go on with this but remembering how the elden beast turned radagon and marika into a weapon, the finger maiden which are connected to the fingers who in turn are connected to the greater will can turn remembrances into weapons or spells. Thinking back to struggle, we really only get these from opponents who have struggled and we ourselves are suppose to struggle against, perhaps this is because the struggle purifies whatever the essence of the remembrance into a weapon or spell. Since Marika wants a weapon that can slay a god, perhaps the point of struggling into eternity isn’t to actually struggle eternally but until the struggle births a remembrance strong enough to forge a weapon that can slay a god.
To Crunchy, I am currently listening to the podcast at work, love your input!! I HAD to come here and mention to your point about the spirit versions of Godfrey, Loretta and Vyke, that in the golden spirit fight against Godfrey, his axe is still double sided and unbroken!! Where as the paintings in game, and promo art out of game, show the half axe-head after its been broken. My brain immediately thought of this as you explained your theory, and I think you are correct. Or on the right track at least
I think that struggle is also a pertinent thing if we look at the Japanese context. Buddhism's main pillars (Four Noble Truths) are to recognize that "pain is suffering" and that we have to recognize it and through meditation and Enlightenment, you can overcome it. I think that the Frenzied Flame tends to stop its efforts at recognizing the suffering and wanting it to end not by overcoming it, but by dying, which leads not to an end, but to rebirth. I think that the Law of Causality is basically a nod to karma and the Law of Regression is the law of rebirth. Of course one thing can easily be linked to the other. IDK, man, I'm nerd Buddhist lol
Then you are right person to ask, i know some of Buddhism but i have various interests in eclectic occult and mystical and mythological stuff so i am not sure. Isnt elden ring ( golden order ...i believe they are one and the same basically ), as in the overreaching law that the world of Elden Ring is governed, basically Dharma ? It reminded me of that concept, only in a way that is imposed on a world from the outside and not natural, like in our world. I researched and studied Gnosticism a bit and that imposing bit is straight up from Gnosticism where Gnostics mainly believe that the order set by Christian/Hebrew god is actually a kind of spiritual invasion and assault Earth and Humanity lasting for thousands of years, it is very similar to events of Elden Ring in some concepts. So i think it is a mixture of Buddhism and Gnosticism and parts of western mythology.
@@DreamskyDance Precisely! Dharma is, in a more precise definition, the term for “the teachings” of the Buddha what could be interpreted as the Golden Order, because the Buddha through his teachings told how the world should work and how we should act. There are some differences between many sects of Buddhism, some more traditional and others more contemporary. To some Buddhists (like me), Buddha was just a teacher and a mentor who taught cool stuff and he’s not at all a figure close to godhood and founded a philosophy. On the other hand, most of Mahayana traditions fall more in line with Gnosticism :)
So, what if the "can not" in Gideon´s death voice line was more a statement of "should not", rather than a statement of fact. It could just be that he doesn´t believe it to be possible of course.
I was gonna listen to this on my plane ride today but it’s not on Spotify yet :( guess I’ll have to wait. Love these talks man, lore speculation is my favorite topic
@@ratatoskr6324 just started listening and the discussion about alchemy and the principles behind it has really put causality and regression into perspective, this is a great episode man
That was a very clever find from Crunchy about how the rune of death is similar to crucified Marika, especially now that we know Marika’s rune looks exactly like that from the DLC. I think SmoughTown did a great job speculating about how Marika’s rune is a rune of life and it’s opposite is destined death
Just had a thought, what if…Rennala couldn’t have children. I know that seems mad. But Ranni is an Empyrean and must have been born from from marika/radagon alone. Why would this happen? Also radagon gave her a gift on leaving her that enable her to create her own children, and she seems fixated on the idea of being a mother, rocking a cradle alone in her room. I don’t know what that means for Rykard and Radahn, but it’s just an idea.
That is a hugely probable idea ngl. Huge plot hole there with running being known and confirmed as empyrean. And emperyans have to be born of pure blood.
This was the best Elden Ring podcast I've ever heard. I listened to the whole thing twice. Please more of this guy Crunchy. But the narrator never mentions Black Flame after you defeat Maliketh. When the Erdtree starts to burn it mentions something about a "dark fate," so that's what Crunchy was probably thinking of. 34:00
Experiencing this video for the first time after having the knowledge that I do now, the disdain for Godefroy has been here since the start! Absolutely love to see it
Godefroy is 100% a different person. Kristoff gets special burial rites for capturing him and for all intents and purposes, he appears to be the example of "Grafting = Might" that Godrick saw while fleeing the capital w/ the mimic veil.
For the Gideon Ofnir quotes, maybe it has to do with Marika's intentions. She could be trying to make a god to replace the Greater Will which "ends" that era, and she'd rather follow a god she created. Then Ofnir sees this and basically thinks she's overreaching and it's an impossible task.
Crunchy has made his own video. You can look at it here th-cam.com/video/D_wyvRCMrBw/w-d-xo.html
Extremely fantastic video.
Maybe wait for the guy to fucking talk? Just a thought.
😅
😊
Thanks for having me on, Ratatoskr, it was a blast!
I wanted to make a few corrections to things I said:
- Rogier explicitly says Ranni was the offspring of Rennala and Radagon, so I was wrong about that.
- The Nox armor says that the Nox were banished deep underground. This could mean the Eternal Cities were aboveground and were literally placed underground, but I take it to mean that the Nox lived aboveground and were banished below, perhaps migrating to the Eternal Cities (which I believe may have been built by the Numen, or the mysterious Uhl/Uld/Ancestral Spirit people.)
- I said that the Snow Witch had the Spirit-Calling Bell; this isn't stated anywhere, but I think she's the most likely candidate, because Torrent is shaggy and likes frozen Rowa, and The Snow Witch body resembles a Wraith-Caller.
Also, someone pointed out that the black flames line doesn’t occur in-game! I was going through the text dump and didn’t check the actual cutscene in-game; there is a cut line where Enia says “Black flames cover the Erdtree” but she doesn’t say it in-game.
Pin this?
As Ratatoskr almost said a few times, you could make some phenomenal content. This was thoroughly enjoyable, and though I love Ratatoskr’s content, I think he reeled you in too soon on a few topics that I’m now anxiously wanting you to flesh out further.
@@FormlessPBnJ Thanks for saying so! After getting the great feedback from this conversation, I’m actually playing with the idea of making a video on the Helphen and the spirit world, cuz I haven’t seen anyone even mention that, and imho it has huge implications.
A small thing I'd like to add that has me convinced that it's very likely Torrent is related to the Snow Witch is the name Torrent itself. You don't usually see the word torrent much outside of references to rain, water, or snow. It's very weather-y, and easily a fit for the kind of name someone who regards herself as a Snow Witch would be likely to pick out if she was staying on theme.
Ratatoskr, please have this guy on again; just to ramble. I know it might be confusing but I for sure believe the ramblings have a point. A couple times now I believe he's been getting to a good point to get cut off. By himself even in a few places. Specifically when it comes to it all being connected; while I believe yes it might seem like each point needs to be broken down and specified on, that isn't how Elden ring, nor life works. It's out of this world non-understanding, and I think it's also the main point. Each of the small insignificant points of contention that seem like they don't matter, they do, and when you combine them all: while absolutely mind-fuckingly out of this realm bonkers they mold into an over arcing cohesion. That tells an, albeit confusing, one complete truth; which at the end, has to be broken up into a bunch of seemingly non-connected smaller truths. Which meld together eventually.
Causality and Regression
@@ATC43 Precisely, I was yelling at my screen when they ended up passing that part up. I believe the core of the story is the struggle of balance between those two concepts. Yin & Yang.
I actually really appreciated him interjecting and keeping me on track, it was always just as I was losing the thread of the thing.
@@CrunchyVideos At certain areas, I agree, but I believe Miyazaki has put in quite a bit of references to multiple religions & traditions. Majority of which can trace their origins to old world alchemy and occult practices. Specifically Hindu and Buddhist rituals, as well as the more obvious ones; like the golden order being a representation of the crusades, and it sounded like you definitely had the 411 on it.
Still an amazing podcast though, don't get me wrong. Captivated the whole 3 hours. Would absolutely watch another with you all!
Yeah, every time it was getting good, Ratatoskr wanted it distilled/simplified...
I wish I had a better way than "youtube comment" to get this across, because I really put a lot of thought into this and would hate for this to all be buried, but here are some of my thoughts on some of this:
I think the game makes Marika's ultimate desire for the Tarnished pretty explicit.
She wants the Tarnished to struggle in order to become strong enough to slay the Elden Beast and in doing so end the Golden Order. You mention that often times the Golden Order is talked about as something more than just an organization and I think this is correct. The Elden Beast is in fact the living embodiment of the Golden Order. I don't think most people know that there is an "Elden Beast" behind everything, but that its definitely apparent that the Golden Order is something more than just an organization, but a force that acts on the world itself.
Gideon and Hewg pretty much confirm this - Hewg is imprisoned in Round Table hold to forge weapons for the Tarnished explicitly for the purpose of slaying a god, and explicity at the behest of Marika. When we kill the Elden Beast the game tells us in the biggest font it has across the whole screen "GOD SLAIN". Gideon uncovered the truth of the Elden Beast and came to the conclusion that it was an impossible task, and thus tantamount to an eternal struggle.
We know that to accomplish this the Erdtree must be burnt, and for that to happen we must defeat Malekith and unleash Destined Death. I believe this is the betrayal his remembrance refers to. The one task she gave her half brother was sealing away the Rune of Death (noting that this was done at the start of the Golden Order - and likely done to ensure the safety of the Golden Order), and in the end she guided Tarnished to slay him in order to bring Death to the Golden Order. So the one task she gave him was to seal away Destined Death to protect the Golden Order from it, and then lead the Tarnished to kill him to unleash it and destroy the Golden Order with it. I cannot think of a greater betrayal.
I don't believe Marika is involved in the Night of Black Knives. I also think Ranni and the Assassins were allies of convenience - she wished to use the Rune to slay her flesh and free her from the Golden Order's purview. The Assassins wanted to do some assassinating with it. Thus, Ranni used them to accomplish her aims. I believe the Assassins were working for the Golden Order and likely acting to punish Marika and her offspring for questioning it, or otherwise going against it. Ranni somehow became party to the plot and used it to further her own ends. The Night of Black Knives was the finally straw for Marika and lead to her shattering the ring, and when that failed, recalling the Tarnished in order to finally free herself and the Lands Between of the Elden Beast/Golden Order. I think its telling that its the Black Knives that come after Iji and Blaidd when Ranni slays her Two Fingers, to me this seems to imply that they seem to be working for the Golden Order.
I think this is also reinforce by the Marika/Assassins/Numen connection. Marika being Numen, likely brought many Numen followers with her into the Golden Order. It doesn't seem unlikely that if Marika began to turn against the Order that some would remain loyal, I mean Radagon remained loyal, and he *is* Marika. It seems weird to me that the *BIG* piece of evidence that everyone uses to pin the Night of Black Knives on Marika is that she happens to be the same race/come from the same place as the assassins. Ostensibly so does Radagon (I tend to believe that they've always been the same person, and lean towards the "split off then recombined" branch of that theory).
(This is the bit I'm least certain of) I think Melina was likely the Gloam Eyed Queen, who once wielded Destined Death and the Black Flame until she was defeated by Malekith, thus becoming "Burned and bodiless". Perhaps she somehow rebelled against the Golden Order in its early days using the power of the Rune of Death. If/how she's connected to Ranni ... I don't know, Melina is probably one of the things I have the hardest time pinning down.
I think you're right on it, the only place I differ in opinion is that, Ranni, not only wasn't involved in the planning of the night of the black knifes; but had no idea it was going to happen in the first place. It seems, that other than Melania and Miquella, she is the only one with a normal sized body like us. As well as us finding her on top(technically upside down, bottom?) of the twisted divine tower.
I believe with her being an almost stillborn in the egg, Radagon gave, Rennalla it caused her soul and body to split as we see with constant other characters; and left the grace in the 'egg'.
The body was returned to the Erdtree where it was revived in her father's image as tarnished; and her soul transmuted into a doll created by Renna (whom I've always thought the split version of Ranni, the grace part stuck in the Egg.) Whilst Rennalla attempted to create her a new body.
She got far enough in her journey, that she had a legitimate chance to change fate.
I believe the Numan are in otherworldly race of the same vein as the ancestral spirits, and if you do something that is two out of line with how destiny is supposed to be played out; fate will intervene and send something akin, but actually even stronger than the power of faith. Fate(magic,death,cold) will send a causality to keep it in check through chaos, the primordial way.
While faith wants regression in the form of strict order. To keep it the same.
I believe Godwyn, finding out what his half sister was going to do, and legit being a good dude; went to assist/stop her and in a two for one the Numans' burned Renna's body(the most effect way to kill an ice witch) and using the death rune seals carved out, Godwyn 'the immortals', grace in order to ensure he could not come back to life, to meddle in fate nor faith further either.
When you join Ranni, you're picking up where they left off; allowing her to finish the job she had already started, and almost completed.
This is the best summation of Marika's motives and plans with evidence to support them that I've seen yet.
I agreed on you with Marika doesn't plan on night of the black knives as you can see in Ranni dialogue, she has grudge and detest on Marika and rather die than to be that things consort
She's clearly against Marika but they just has the same goal to destroy golden order
today I'm still think Marika grudge against grater will is shroud in mystery. I meant she has so much grudge that she's willing to die to achieve it (kill the elden beast)
I think your theory about the Black Knife assasins makes a lot of sense of Melina and the fact that she uses their moveset but with a golden hue and Golden Order incantations. It's possible she was their leader (or just a member) and was killed during or before the plot to steal the Rune of Death and so uses the old version of their weapons not imbued with Destined Death.
This is an absolute fucking ripper of a youtube comment. Great stuff.
Melina's dialogue in the first gameplay trailer is still relevant it seems. "They will fight, and they will die, in an unending curse. For how else is a champion, or a lord, to be born?"
Completely forgot about this! Right on the nose
On the D brothers, while Darian is alive, not only Devin says nothing, doesn't move, and wears plain cloth, a magical barrier protects him from all forms of damage. It is only when you give him the Twinned Armor Set that he "activates" and goes on his revenge quest against Fia.
Perhaps the Twinned Armor set houses the singular soul of the D brothers, similar to (but not exactly) how the primal glintstone houses the soul of Sorceress Sellen.
What does that say when we put on the armor, though..?
@@jooot_6850 What, don't like beeing inside the D brothers?
@@Darkflo23 Heh. I guess that doesn't sound too bad.
They said all of this almost word for word in the podcast.
Where is he to give him the armor?
Time for a 3+ hour podcast all about "No it can't be... But.. Maybe?"
Bring it on lol
They really lost into it
@@hijikili2656 where the best ideas come from tbh
Here is an obscure part of Gowry dialogue: ""I vow to impart to you my knowledge of the lost sorceries of the Sellians, descendants of the Eternal"
Sellia has one of those giant thrones, in the Eternal Cities they have the giant skelton sitting in them. Sellia's is empty though. You even fight a couple Nox there. So Sellia is of the same civilization as the Eternal Cities.
@@darkhobo "Below Sellia, the Eternal City of Nokron sleeps. This sorcery originates from the maiden of that place."
Hmmm... my assumption is that Sellians are Noxes who moved above ground after Nokron was destroyed.
Gowry is the rot God. He’s (it) was sealed away in the lake of rot underground, conveniently right next to and under the eternal cities
@@jacquesbonhomme8198 Gowry tells us he is a servant of the rot god.
@@darkhobo Gowry is a servant of the rot god in the same way Shabriri is for the frenzied flame. Shabriri is at the same time sort of a vessel for the will of the god to inhabit corpses like Hyetta and Yura, and the incarnation of the god itself in the earth plane
. It's deeply connected to the main theme of the duality always present in this game, such as with twins, marika and radagon, etc
The guest (I'm sorry I forgot your name at this moment) made alot of good points and I liked him! You can tell he's not used to this kind of talk but given time I think he'd be great to have on more discussions
10 minutes in and I really like this guy.
Well, after having watched the whole thing, I definitely like this guy. I actually quite like this video as a whole. I think having a loosely formed discussion based solely on connections and not conclusions every so often is refreshing and really gets the viewers brain working as well. Keep up the great work!
6 hours in and I like this Crunchy boi.
The Elden Lord is specifically destined to protect the god incarnate. They need to be the strongest so they do not overthrow the golden order. The Greater Will doesn’t expect you to side with Ranni, this is why when you choose one of the mending runes or the fractured ending you become the Elden Lord but if you do the Ranni ending or the Lord of Frenzy you just become Lord, this is proven by your friends completing the game in the same group as you and it pops up either Elden Lord or Lord.
The Laws of Causality and Regression are probably inspired by the philosophical concepts of "Progression" (gr. pro-hodos) and "Reversion" (gr. epi-strophe). The late antique Neoplatonists considered all of reality to be derived from an ineffable One from which the multiplicity of being emanates (progression/causality) and to which all beings long to return (reversion/regression). The "One Great" mentioned by Hyetta might also be a reference to this. The One is also considered to be beyond every distinction, even beyond the distinction of Chaos (which is equal to pure multiplicity) and Order (which is equal to unity). Order is actually a force that brings multiple things into unity, because it lets them participate in a single pattern, and is thus a force of stability. Chaos on the other hand breaks down patterns and is thus a force of movement and change.
I guess that the Greater Will/Two Fingers and the Frenzied Flame/Three Fingers are supposed to represent those two fundamental principles of reality (Order/Chaos), derived from a single, transcendent One Great. Problems arise when one of those poles tries to shut out the other one from reality, because being is actually founded on both unity/stability/regression and multiplicity/change/causality.
The world created by the Frenzied Flame is actually a mockery of true unity, because by abolishing all distinction and order it actually removes all meaningful relations between beings and thus also removes change/births. So in a way the melted down world of the FF ending could also be considered a totalitarian order, because in its total equality it is absolutely exclusive. To impose complete equality on reality, you actually have to erect a totalitarian order.
I wish you to know that reading this has enhanced my philosophical acumen to the heights of the celestial firmament.
@@sirgoo9962 May you rise even higher and gain a vision even of the supercelestial place.
Someone's been reading Dr. Peterson, mayhaps?
@@LeifMaelstrom More like Plato
Pretty great explanation, and you hit home the key fault in both of the fingers’ viewpoints-unity and chaos actually inter-exist and are mutually dependent on one another to create the truly ordered world. In other words, what both fingers/outer god forces fail to realize about themselves and also the other is that the principle of unity and stability on a higher level is always dependent on some form of underlying chaos/disunity on a smaller scale; The two most obvious examples are our own organic bodies, and in turn the ecosystems such bodies produce. The chaos of trillions of bacteria and cellular organisms, which while constantly warring and vying for control in their sphere of existence, spontaneously work together unconsciously to order the whole body in a way that’s hard to grasp with linear forms of thinking. In the same way, the seemingly chaotic and frenzied struggle for animals and whatever other organisms to survive within their respective ecosystems actually always balances out to create some form of pattern of stability. All this is possible through cosmic laws set by the ineffable truth of reality which in Christian terms is known as the “Logos”, and in eastern terms as “Dharma”.
Something I thought was really
Interesting about the FF ending in regards to the philosophical significance is, as you said, it makes a mockery of true oneness (which is perfectly represented by the ☯️ symbol of Taoism). A good way to articulate this error alchemically-as that’s such a prevalent template for understanding the inspiration and themes for Elden Ring-is that the FF conflates the massa confusa with the Prima Materia. The massa confusa is actually just one aspect emanating from the Prima Materia, which is beyond all dualistic concepts such as chaos vs order, singularity vs duplicity, light vs dark, existence vs non existence, etc.
26:12 I can confirm the chest just won’t open if you haven’t been tasked by Ranni, I went down to Nokron only for the black whetstone and couldn’t open the chest as I was running through the area, the message was that I was not fated to open the chest.
I think the will of Marika that Gideon realized is that she wants them to kill a god. He states "A man cannot kill a god" as his reason for a tarnished being unable to become lord. As if that was a recent realization to him that made him change his mind.
I think he got ahead of us, went into the tree, and upon realizing he would have to defeat Radagon, or perhaps even the Elden Beast, he gave up completely. He decided that either Marika had overestimated them or perhaps it's all one big cruel joke. "Markia has high hopes for us" feels almost sarcastic. We're supposed to suffer until we complete our task, but she has faced us with an impossible task, and therefore we will suffer for eternity.
I don't think Hugh liked Gideon much. Pure speculation there, but he chose US as his lord. He was forging a god slaying weapon at Marika's request, but as he comes to recognize us as his lord he starts doing it for our sake as well. I'm not so sure Gideon knew any such weapon exists. I don't think Hugh would have told him. Not if he had already decided we are his lord.
TH-cam puts a lot of ads on these podcasts so you can listen on different podcast platforms here: anchor.fm/ratatoskr
Episodes are released there 1 day after TH-cam.
Also these episodes are speculation and don't represent my complete views on lore. Only the things released as independent lore videos represent my views.
Ads bring money from non members. I dont mind it
Now that the DLC is announced I’m rewatching all of these older videos. Listening to this discussion has reminded me just how confusing the lore of ER is truly is. I’ve thought I had it all figured out several times but then I start questioning it again. I hope the DLC will shed even a tiny crumb of grace on some of these unanswered questions.
Genuinely not a big fan of Ratatoskr constantly speaking over his guest, I'd love to continue more of the video but he's blatantly disrespectful to an invited guest. Bothersome.
It's interesting that at 1:19:20 he basically said that the whole point of Elden ring is that Marika removed fire from the alchemical equation, and now we've learned about Messmer being hidden away or banished.
Very interesting
"Crunchie is not a conten creator" - he damn well should be. Someone get this guy an editor , quick
46:05 another thing that might support this is the axe Godfrey uses. When you fight his spirit, it's clearly a double sided axe, but when you actually fight him later in the game, like half of his axe is broken
Are you talking about Godefroy?
@@SageStudiesGunnarFooth no the wierd golden boy that guards the erdtree
@@arionerron4273 Ohhh for some reason read “Godfrey” as “Godefroy” and I was like, “Does Godefroy have a different axe compared to Godrick? 😳🤔” and then I started thinking about the possible lore implications of that 😂
What I'm wondering is why Serosh isn't on his back there. Maybe he couldn't be conjured because he's half spirit somehow?
@@arcanefire7511 it’s Godfrey before he becomes Elden Lord. His axe became damaged in the time after becoming lord, and he only took Serosh once he became Lord
Miriel's dialogue about the "skeleton in Radagon's closet" and the statue in the capital is the best indicator to me that Radagon and Marika may have always been the same person.
100% agree, though I'm really curious as to how miquella and malenia were conceived. They were probably different entities but in one body, and can somewhat influence each other? And also some how have children in some way? The only way i can think of that is radically in speculation is if marika had a baby with each if the outer gods, one of rot and one of order or like eternal youth?
@@Electronica27 I'm not so sure that sexual reproduction even occurs in the Elden Ring universe the way we think of it. Not even between Godfrey and Marika, something tells me it just doesn't work like that. I think its more akin to Gwyn splitting his soul, Marika's body through the power of the Elden Ring can just "produce" demigods with the "influence" of a consort but maybe not require their physical body. Its all very weird lol
Gross, but remember Mohg and how he wanted to become consort. I don't think the two of them have the "proper equipment" to make children but that didn't seem to bother Mohg at all from beginning his Dynasty, and dynasty is a very specific word. He intended to create a family to hand his power down to.
This is the best elden ring lore video on TH-cam, you gotta be unhinged and think outside the box to figure the game out
There is definitely a theme with eyes in Elden Ring. Eyes are commonly called “windows of the souls.” In ER they definitely seem to be windows, but for looking out instead of in. Eyes seem to facilitate some kind of manifest or power of the outer gods (or other super natural power?) E.g. the fire giants eye, Melina’s eye, tarnished eyes and seeing grace, Ranni’s eye that links her spirit and the doll she inhabits, dragon communion eyes, furled finger eyes (for the formless mother?), Melania’s eyes are scared over with rot (are her eyes a window/portal for the rot god?).
Shabiri grapes.
@@gibsonmorrison9197 Good catch! You reminded me I also forgot about the most obvious example: the eyes of those with the Flame of Frenzy.
Also the Beast Eye (which may be Melina’s/gloam eyed queen’s other eye that Maliketh “acquired” when he defeated her).
How are Melina's, Ranni's and the dragon communion eyes connected to outer gods?
@@arcanefire7511 That’s why I also added “or maybe supernatural power?” It’s not a perfect theory. I haven’t really worked out all the kinks yet.
The Dragon eyes could just be the first step of turning into a dragon and be a “normal” biological change unconnected to any god.
Melina’s eye maybe connected to the twinbird’s & deathbird’s outergod (though how the rune of death, ghost flame, black flame, twin bird, and gloam eyed queen are connected is unclear, if they are connected at all. I definitely think that Melina has one of the gloam-eyes queen’s eyes and the beast eye we get from Gurranq is the other).
Ranni’s moon may be some kind of outer god. I don’t know if her eye is connected to that (or if she is connected to Melina. They both seem to know Torrent’s former master and they both do the one eye thing, but it could just be left over’s from an earlier story draft). I just think it’s interesting that, with eyes being an obvious theme, Ranni’s possession of the doll body seems incomplete. Her spirit is shunted to one side and she is only using one of the doll’s two eyes, almost like her spirit is only connected or pinned to the doll through one of the eyes.
What it all means I am not quite sure. Eyes were also a theme in Bloodborne where you have eyes as a metaphor for insight into the supernatural…but also physical eyeballs had supernatural power and having a bunch of them, especially in your brain or grafted to your body connected you to the arcane…but also maybe it wasn’t even the eyes themselves but that super natural parasites are what gives you arcane powers and those parasites just liked to live in eyeballs (e.g. Ludwig and the black sky eye). What does it all mean?
Yes; also the one-eye sigil of Gideon Ofnir, the depiction of St. Trina with one eye (on the torch), the Scar and Soreseals, Roderika having the eye hue of a spirit tuner (same as Snow Witch eye), the blindfolded prophets, the briars piercing the eyes and seeing a blood star, the blind swordsman, etc etc etc
11:36 "I have no interest in being correct" - Ratatoskr, May 20th, 2022.
Around 1:04:00 , it seemed like Rata brought up spirit ashes of his own accord, and then asked why his guest was trying to tie spirit ashes to what he was saying in regards to grace. I found this a pretty confusing part of the podcast.
That’s because RATotaskr spent this whole podcast trying to undermine his guest and act like he is the only authority on Elden ring lore and as if anyone else wasnt being thorough enough. Complete a$$hat if you ask me. Was a fan of him til this podcast, from now on I’ll be taking my lore curiosity elsewhere.
Consider inviting the Sinclair Podcast duo. I would love to hear what they have to share.
Also, this guy is great. Hope he comes back with his point of view.
Always look forward to listening to the podcasts! Keep up the good work ratatoskr!
So Marika's motives...
If we go with the theme of Alchemy, she is trying to create a perfect something. I suspect she's trying to create a more perfect Elden Ring, though perhaps without knowing what that is. If we look at previous Miyazaki games, as important as the player is, they're ultimately just one step along the way, one iteration of the cycle. Therefore I don't think Marika's goal is to create a perfect Lord to sire a perfect successor.
As for my logic, the history of the world seems to revolve around changing and removing things from the Elden ring. If we accept that Marika is behind everything, then it follows that when she shattered the Elden Ring, she intended for someone to put it back together, which is exactly what you do. The thing is, i don't think her goal is for the normal age of fracture ending to happen. I think her goal is for the new Elden Lord she has cultivated to contribute something new. In other words, to create and use a mending rune. Any mending rune. And after that, at some point the Elden ring might be shattered again in hopes yet another mending run is applied. This cycle would go on infinitely until perfection is achieve (assuming perfection is possible, but, knowing Miyazaki, it isn't.)
I do think I need a need a bit more to go on, though. Really, for me the biggest clue is that the game is titled "Elden Ring" and my simple desire for the answer tot eh question that's nagging me to be staring me in the face right in the game's title. But that aside, the idea of constantly experimenting with the make-up of the Elden Ring in the hopes of creating something new and transcendent does fit with the ideas of Alchemy very well.
I agree, but I think that perfection is possible, just not eternal. She basically wants the most competent person to mend the Elden Ring in a way that fits the current status quo the best, perfectly, as it no longer worked in the times described by the intro.
"Solve et coagula..."
Thanks for having the guest on! I think he contributed quite a lot. It was an especially impressive showing for not being a content creator
I genuinely cannot stress how much I appreciate these talks. Always brings about an interesting new idea or theory.
I have one wild theory about Radagon. I think he started as some sort of a successfully forged Mimic Tear to Marika.
Think about it, the Silver Tear project(?) were started at Nokstellar, which was one of the 2 lost sanctuaries of the Numen, which was devised as an attempt to artificially forge a Lord. I suspect at some point Marika had realized the possibility for Godfrey to lose his grace and become unbefitting to be a Lord, so she schemed with the Numen in their Eternal Cities to forge a Mimic Tear to be a copy of herself but male so she could rule over the Land Between alone in essence.
This would also make sense why Radagon was loyal to the Golden Order, since he was forged before the time Marika's allegiance with the Greater Will changed. During the time he was with Rennala, maybe Radagon had gone through a rebirth through the rune of the unborn, which resulted into him gaining his own sentience, thus then his will diverged from Marika's control. At the time he returned to Marika's side and merged with her(?), Radagon has fully developed his own sense of will, and he chose to stick with the will he had been programmed to believe in - serving the Golden Order.
I really want you guys to look into this possible direction for clues and speculation, I think it's worth some investigation.
I think it's more likely that Marika was simply rebirthed through Rennala's egg into Radagon.
If a mimic tear was used at all, it was to mimic Marika since the real Marika was busy being Radagon.
Some very interesting speculation here. One thing I have wondered, since we fight a couple mimic tears of ourself, and create an ashes as well… when we rebirth ourselves with a mimic tear, are we still really ourselves?
Or have we essentially replaced ourselves with a copy? A mimic tear rebirthed through the Rune of the Unborn into a different copy of us?
I actually think we hear Radagon's origin in game. One of the dialogues you can get from Melina "In Marika's own words" details how she decided that blind faith to the Golden Order had grown tired and she became curious about the deepest workings of the Greater Will and their faith. It is possible that, in order to plumb those depths, she cut away that part of her that held blind devotion to the Golden Order, which became Radagon.
It's the exact same idea as Malenia/Millicent. Millicent is effectively the warrior's pride that led Malenia to fight against her Rot and remain just a swordsman rather than a Goddess of Rot. She was cut away, or perhaps thrown away, by Malenia when she bloomed in her attempt to avoid defeat against Radahn. At first, when Millicent discovers what she is, she wishes to return to her "mother"/sister/other self in order to restore what was lost. But, ultimately, Millicent decides to die as herself and not return to Malenia. She has become her own person, with her own personality and goals and grown beyond being simply an offshoot of her parent demigod.
I think Radagon works exactly the same way. He started as just an element of Marika that she severed from herself. But he became an entirely independent entity. The Giant's curse of red hair could even play in to this, and may even explain why he's male instead of female (as all Millicent's sisters are).
Very interesting
This is a fascinating idea! I've been playing with the idea of virgin birth (there are also so many associations with Biblical stories) and maybe the idea that the Numen all reproduced asexually (they seem to be all women, long-lived but seldom born). I'm not totally sure, because I think the Flame Guardian face data looks very similar to the Numen template in character creation, so it's possible there are Numen males? Not really sure-- I'll definitely think about this idea. There's also the cut content with Asimi which indicates that Asimi would actually be inside you in some sense.
I have a thought in regards to what Gideon glimpsed, what terrified him. What Marika’s vision, what her will was, was to kill the Elden Beast, the Vassal of the Greater Will. Marika is referred to as the “vision of the greater will”, and her dialogue in reference to shattering herself, well, she doesn’t mean just figuratively, but literally as well. When she shattered herself, the “vision” was broken, meaning that a specific link allowing the greater will to exert its influence was broken. The Elden Beast came down in a star, and acted as the Greater Will’s vassal, it’s representative. This star, and I think by connection, the Greater Will, was actually more of a colonizing force than anything else. The greater will needs a vassal, and the vassal itself needs a being able to enact its “vision”. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that The Great Tree existed before being claimed by the Erdtree, and Miquella rejected the Erdtree to create the Haligtree. I think Miquella and Marika were both able to figure that for whatever reason, the Greater Will was not the benevolent force it presented itself to be. In fact, it was quite the opposite: as an Outer God, and the only one that managed to get the Lands Between under its sway, it’s eliminated whatever order or logic of the world, and supplanted it’s own over it. Marika figure it all out first, and then Miquella, and finally, Gideon. So when he say a man cannot slay a god, he doesn’t mean Marika. She’s already shattered and broken, as is Radagon. But the Elden Beast isn’t, and it is a god in full.
The mending rune of the death prince states that the Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death (ie, the Rune of Death that you unleash when you defeat Maliketh), which Maliketh did when he defeated the Gloam-eyed Queen and her Godskin Apostles. Ergo, the fight between Marika and the GEQ must have been before the Age of the Erdtree and Marika's Golden Order, as her defeat is what allows its creation. It was likely a fight between two Empyreans, chosen by their respective fingers as capable of becoming the vessel of the Elden Ring, the God of a new Age and a new Order, a fight Marika won thanks to her shadowbound beast, Maliketh. It was likely also been the fight that switched it from the prehistoric Age of the Ancient Dragons (for lack of a better term, as I don't recall the game naming their Age) to the Age of the Erdtree/Golden Order. It also explains how Godwyn could be the first recorded death of a demigod in history and how Maliketh's name could mean "Death of the Demigods"--the age before the Age of the Erdtree is described as prehistoric (relating to or denoting the period before written records); Godwyn wasn't the first demigod to die EVER, he was the first RECORDED death, with Maliketh's murder of other demigod competitors to Marika's ascent to Godhood happening in a time when written record didn't exist.
Heh. Or. More simple solution. The Erdtree Order and the Golden Order are two different things. They just both worship Marika and the Erdtree. One with death, and one without.
Theres even two sacred seals and Two sets of incantations.
Check out the amber medallions and the Erdtrees favors medallions. There was an age of the Erdtree where sap flowed, but its over now.
I'm not sure that "confining Destined Death" = Maliketh grafting the Rune of Death into his body. That was just a precaution he personally took because he came close to losing it and was terrified of failing Marika. We are never given any indication that this changed the world state at all. The much more major event was when Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring in the first place, giving her control over death. That's more likely what's meant by "confining Destined Death".
@@LillyAnarkitty I'm still confused at to what's going on with the ruin of death. So prior to the Elden Ring did death exist as we understand it irl? What about after the Elden Beast Arrived? When he corrupted the great tree? When the Elden Ring existed as we know it, but before Markia plucked the ruin out? After she removed the ruin and fave it to Malikath?
I want to say that destined Death is a rule imposed by the Elden Ring forcing dead things to stay dead, and when removed by Marika what that meant is that only her own personal assassain could permanently kill people, but is that universal? I don't think everyone everywhere was immortal during Markias reign. Does it just apply to those who receive erd tree burial? Like normally you stay dead, but if you're buried in accordance with this religion you don't really die? Unless Marika's shadow comes after you? Also what's Fia trying to accomplish? Is she just trying to put death back into the elden ring how the greater will intended?
at about 2:28:00 : its not "a tarnished can not become a lord", its "a man can not kill a god". god in this instance can refer to marika, the elden beast, or possibly even the greater will. if what marika aims to create is a lord strong enough to kill the greater will, that might be reason for gideon to be afraid…
Thanks for this; I have to check the text dump. I remember two different lines but maybe I’m hallucinating.
Goldmask’s hidden reaction makes me think that Truth IS Madness.
I think it's more along the lines that the people of the lands between are incredibly devout, but upon learning the real truth and that their whole faith was a lie, they succumb to the flame of frenzy
Fall right into like with bloodborne etc
So I was right to light them all up in Flames on my 1st Playthrough? Noice
I want you to ask about one obvious thing, what no one is talking about. We have 2 fingers of golden order and 3 fingers of chaos, combination of both give us 5 finger, whole palm of a hand, on which we can see big accent in cutscene for second phase of radagon fight, when elden beast is appears - 5 fingers goes for radagon's body. Its for the theory what everything was one, but then 3 fingers were banished and locked away deep below capital, in same way rune of death was removed from the ring. What do you think about what?
Yup absolutely right, it’s too significant to have the 2 and 3 not being originally 5. If you look at the dead 2 fingers on top of the towers, they somewhat resemble Placidusax’s body- stone skin covering gold-ish mineral inside, or possibly wood. Not sure what to make of that. I do think it may be some reference to the God Hand from Berserk, but I don’t have any strongly developed thoughts past that at the moment.
There does seem to be missing lore pertaining to the era before the Golden order that could help give a better understanding of things which I hope they give us in the dlc
I think the speech Melina gives before she burns the Erdtree is actually a spell created by Marika that transports the Tarnished to Farum Azula. It's told Melina by Marika as though it's a prophesy relating to her, which it is, but not in the way she thinks. She's the flame in the prophesy/spell, she refers to herself as burned and bodiless and she literally burns the Erdtree by first burning herself. You've "walked alongside" her the entire game up to this point. Once she's finished the tree burning ritual you're transported to the "road of Destined Death" ie the path to the Rune of Death. The Great Bridge up to Maliketh even looks like a road. The prophesy also holds true for all endings too although with the Frenzied Flame ending the flame referred to is the Flame of Frenzy rather than Melina, all other endings Melina is still with you. The only problem I have with this theory is why you don't need to recite Marika's words when you do the Frenzied Flame ending, it's possible though that the tree burning process is the necessary part and the Cauldron has been blessed or enchanted by Marika to transport you and so the words are unnnecessary.
I have assumed that tarnished are analogous to arturian knights. The heroes of the past who are destined to come back when they are needed the most. Their base is called the ROUNDTABLE Hold. As such I disagree with viewing the Lands Between as the afterlife because it's their true place to belong, the place where they are trully alive unlike the outside where they are hunted and killed (Hoarah Loux in the intro, Fia's dialogue).
I think they’re playing with both ideas in the game-Lands Between as afterlife and as the true home of the Tarnished. In my head the former is more thematic than literal
Yeah especially with the helphens steeple flavor text it makes no sense for the lands between to be a literal afterlife
I actually started the game under that assumption, and when I first got to roundtable hold, the FIRST thing I saw was the Green Knights giant fucking ax slammed into the table.
Ratatoskr, you should talk with Sinclair Lore about some of these subjects. Sophie and Sin (mostly Sophie) have some pretty in depth analysis, and I think each of ya’ll would benefit from a discussion with each other.
They would definitely spend around an hour on the debate over the timeline when Radagon was Marika
I’ve been thinking about a lot of things you both discussed in this podcast, I’m delighted by the content!
2:06:10, I personally believe that Ranni "planted" the fragment of the Rune of Death on Godwyn to use him to foil the Assassins. The Assassins, tasked as a last line of defense should Maliketh fail, would follow the power of the rune, so they chase whoever they sense has its power on it, first they killed Godwyn, beliving him to be the thief, and then started chasing Ranni herself when they discovered the the stolen fragment was split. That way the relation between Marika, the Assassins, Ranni and Godwyn makes way more sense.
22:00 by your reasoning, Gostoc too should be an Onyx Lord because of his neck, along with all the servants within Stormveil and Leindell
1:11:57 you counted 8 types flames in the game, and the eye has 8 dots, maybe that's that? maybe there is an outer god of all type of flames?
Weirdest Detail about Godfrey/Serosh, is after Godfrey slays the beast, Serosh's hand mirrors Godfrey's own in motion, so there's some type of spirit absorption or link, as if Serosh was *part of him* (almost like his own shadow beast ala Blaidd/Malekith) and that his death is what's needed to let Godfrey finally let loose as Horah Loux
Favorite line: “They had an uneasy alliance, they were all sitting in chairs.”
Here's my comment for Ratatoskr hopefully commending my intuition down the line. Marika's motivations revolve entirely around trying to find meaning within her own world. Everything she does to change the golden order and to court powerful husbands and have godlike children. She's looking to create a world with meaning because she struggles to see it for herself as the god of the world. She is close enough to the greater will to understand more about it than anyone else and the part that she's missing is the ardent and full belief that Radagon demonstrates in the Greater WIll. Marika just wants the world to have a purpose, and this flaw with reality drives her to do anything.
Everyone asks Who is Marika, but no one asks How is Marika
Radagon a mere champion having a great rune of the elden ring itself before the shattering and before marring marika is the biggest evidence they've always been the same being because otherwise raykard ranni and radahn can't be considered demigods let alone radahn being the strongest one
But the game states that they became demigods through adoption. That could be BS, of course, but the text IS there.
@@RoyalMudcrab Renalla's kids being adopted is intended to be a cover story, as people were supposed to believe that Radagon and Marika were separate beings.
Not necessarily; Enia says that the demigods are all the direct offspring of Queen Marika. But in Radahn's Great Rune, it says "Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika." So there's an implication that someone can be retroactively made a demigod. Plus, Enia is pretty sus.
There's a difference between getting the status and prestige of being the child of a god and actually having divine powers like the child of a god.
@@CrunchyVideos it's the status and the prevailing of being from the royal family it doesn't at least to me that they weren't demigods before it's just the public story, all finger readers are sus but were they ever wrong in anything? Enia literally tells you marika was the one who shattered the ring something you won't know until the end of the game and none of characters in the game knows it either so I don't see a reason why not to take her word for granted
I’m only an hour in but I’m loving this. I’ve been obsessed with the lore of this game and I’m still learning new things.
I'm crossing my fingers for at least an hour of russian literature
i looked it up and onyx stone deflects negative emotions while alabaster draws in energy from other stones pretty cool
I think one of the main "reasons" that Elden Ring both feels easier to grasp than previous FromSoft games, but also when you sit down to try to grapple with the lore ends up having so many more unknowns comes back to how character focused so much of it is, and then human nature when it comes to interfacing with people. You see the characters, you see how the characters talk about each other, you see the effects from the characters on others, etc and the part of you that is used to navigating complex human society goes "yup, got the main points, this seems like a navigable situation" because in real life we don't need to know the full minutia of everyone around us to function. So it's like the vagueness is vague in just the right ways to trick our brains into feeling like the lore is accessible while shrouding so many of the specifics.
And it's really good for giving us a sense of who the characters are, even as we know so little about what each character did specifically, or what order things were done in. I think that's part of why the whole suspicion about Marika being involved in the Night of the Black Knives is so popular: there's some lore that may hint at it, but really it *feels* like something Marika might do, and thats basically the same as saying that she did it to a human brain haha.
I think Gideon Ofnir shuddered in fear at Marika’s plan because she wanted the Golden Order to end. That’s “the end that should not be.”
Two things.
One, green and blue were under the same word in Japanese until very recently. The distinction came with Midori separating green from blue.
Two, the Altus plateau is absolutely drained of life. Only pioneer species like birch are scratching out a living. The Erdtree, lacking war feeding it strong bodies, likely sucked the very essence out of the soil. Burning the tree would spread nutritious ash to the minor erdtrees and seeds.
Also the rune in the amber egg might be from the previous, dragony, set of rings? It is 'preserved' in amber?
Placidusax being the storm lord of the hawks in stormveil just doesn't make sense thematically, what could be possible is the the hawks serve the dragons, as we do find a few hawk in Farum Azula right in front of an ancient dragon, additionally we find banished knights in Farum, and also, the banished knight helm is adorned with a small dragon figure, but otherwise, the Dragons have their own flying city, what would tie them to stormveil?? To me it's more likely that the original lord of stormveil was a great hawk, in service to the dragons of farum Azula, and that Farum Azula may have once floated over limgrave (the majority of sky ruins we find are in Limgrave), with stormveil being a place that connnects the two areas, maybe with a now destroyed portal. When Godfrey bested placidusax his god fled, and Farum Azula started crumbling and floating away, possibly because of their god's abandonment
26:30 crunchy is correct, it is dependent on Ranni’s quest line. I went to the chest after defeating radahn but before speaking with Ranni and was met with that message about “fate”.
The “beast siblings” Blaidd and Maliketh are Shadows, being created by a demigod’s personal Two Fingers to guide an Empyrean.
It’s a whole thing but a lot of the details are dropped when Ranni is the small doll in Ainsel.
Shadows are considered step sibling for their shared “parent” the Greater Will. Two Fingers have the power to make beasts and you fight one as a red invader in Ainsel (it looks like Blaidd). Ranni’s Two Fingers was directly trying to assassinate her for a while.
It also explains why Blaidd goes nuts. He’s good at heart and wants to support Ranni as a brother but he’s “programmed” to serve the Two Fingers, not kill it. So he snaps.
It’s implied Shadows are given to Empyreans shortly after they’re recognized for their status.
Which left me wondering if Malenia and Miquella have shadows of their own (dlc maybe).
I think due to their rejection of the greater will their shadows most likely would have gone insane. It is also possible though that Malenia is Miquella’s shadow. There is a text that mentions that Blaidd is the blade of Ranni. This has a striking resemblance to Malenia being referred to as the blade of Miquella. Made me kind of see her as his shadow, maybe acting as shadow now they both lost their shadows.
@@mattwebb563 I think this is an awesome train of thought but I unfortunately think it's wrong. All of the Shadows distinctly have some relation to Beasts, which have some unclear importance to the Elden Ring. More directly, the Shadows aren't considered on the same level as demigods, which Malenia is.
Morgott refers to Malenia during his cutscene along with Miquella, calling them the "Twin Prodigies". I think they were actually just straightforward twins.
I agree that their shadow(s) must be insane by now if not dead. Still, could be fun to see them in a future update/dlc.
Then again there's soooo many things I'd want to see in dlc I don't think it's possible we'll get it all.
@@solomon9655 Yeah sorry I don’t. Mean she is literally his shadow. I simply mean, having no shadows (since they rejected the Greater Will), she is acting as his shadow. As she sees him as the only true Empyrean worth becoming a god, she rejected her own claim to godhood and acts as his “shadow” instead. I think the “Blade of Ranni” line is meant to invoke a comparison, but she isn’t literally a Shadow in the proper sense.
However that is of course before she becomes the goddess of rot. All bets are off now
@@mattwebb563 This is actually pretty convincing now that I’ve thought about it more. Really cool theory.
As for Godfrey killing Serosh, Serosh was always an inhibitor on his frenzy for battle. By the time you get Godfrey to half health, even Serosh is going wild. He wants to fight. And at that point, there isn’t any point for Godfrey to have Serosh. So he killed him. There’s a pattern of Beast Folk being betrayed, and also betraying. The shadow bound beasts act as assassins if Empyreans go against The Greater Will. Marika betrayed Maliketh. Godfrey betrayed Serosh (by killing him, obviously).
Struggle creates growth, stagnation begets rot and torment. Contentment doomed the land’s between.
Gideon's dialogue during his boss fight is confusing, and might be a case of mistranslation. However, I think there is a way to interpret it that makes sense if we take a broader view.
The first strange thing he says is "None may take the throne." Obviously, the Elden throne has been occupied before, by Godfrey, so this on it's face is a contradiction. The word 'throne' could be figurative, so he's saying 'even if you become Elden Lord, you will never fully be in control, the throne itself and the position of Elden Lord are a sham.'
Next he says "Marika has high hopes for us, that we struggle unto eternity." I don't think the eternity he refers to the current state of affairs in the lands between, I think it's more like, "Even if you do become Elden Lord, you will still have to struggle to maintain your order, and even so, your order will inevitably fall into decline." He's referring to the endless succession of ages going into the future should the Elden Ring continually be repaired. I think he's lying here, he says it with a kind of ironic twinge. I think he glimpsed the will of Queen Marika and is actively going against it. But I'll get back to this.
"A tarnished cannot become Lord, a man cannot kill a God." The first part is a reiteration of "None shall take the throne." The second part "A man cannot kill a God." Well, he's kind of correct, isn't he? When you defeat the Elden Beast, the screen says GOD SLAIN. I think this is misleading. The Elden Beast and Elden Ring are the same entity, this is clear from the Elden Stars item description. When you defeat the Elden Beast, you haven't killed him literally, you've put the Elden Ring into a state where it can be repaired. But the consciousness of the Elden Beast is still alive, and will come to life the next time a champion comes to challenge it.
Now back to Marika's motivations. I don't think that Marika shattered the Elden Ring simply because the Golden Order needed to change or she needed a new consort/new children. The Golden Order has changed before, she's gotten new consorts before without it being shattered, so I don't think these are the reasons. I think Marika shattered the Elden Ring in an attempt to rid the world of the Elden Beast once and for all. This is why she exhorted Hewg to make a weapon that can kill a God, and why he was so caught up with his task and treated it like some impossible conundrum, because it is.
Now we come to the "End that cannot be." Gideon was searching for ways to destroy the Elden Beast for good, and found that the only way to truly get rid of it was the Frenzied Flame. The Frenzied Flame ending is the "End that cannot be." This is why Gideon wants us to struggle for eternity, to continually remake the ring, struggle to create and maintain order for eternity, because it's the only alternative he sees to the Frenzied Flame consuming the world.
If you've made it to the end, thank you for reading.
An interesting idea. But logically, wouldn’t that mean that he’d not stand in your way unless you had the frenzied flame in you? That’s the only issue I have with your analysis. I agree that Merika is trying to kill the Elden Beast (personally I think she’s actually trying to kill herself and the Elden Beast is standing in the way of that). I think Gideon is arrogant and assumes that no one can create a new order after Merika’s meddling.
I still stand firm that Merika is a dirtbag. Her actions make the most sense as a petulant person. First she becomes vessel of the Elden Ring and starts a campaign to conquer everyone else (which is not necessary as the Dragons and Radagon indicate that Order doesn’t require enslavement) and impose her rule over everything. She wants to rule. Then she sends Godfrey away so she can have full control but keeps him in her back pocket as a contingency.
I believe she manifested Radagon as an aspect of herself to fulfill the role previously served by Godfrey but giving her more control. She calls him back to birth an Empyrean entirely derived from herself. Again to maximize control. However, she felt him beginning to gain more strength, which scared her.
This fear grew into paranoia that exploded when the gloam-eyed Queen, supported by an instance of the fingers, tried to overthrow her. She sealed destined death away to prevent the natural transition of the ring (which was built in to the ring itself). But used Maliketh to control death herself.
However, the fingers didn’t give up on resuming the proper order of replacing the vessel. At least one instance reached out to Ranni. This led to her orchestrating the black knives incident (I don’t think Marika planned that). This led to Marika completely losing it. She decided if she couldn’t rule then no one would. She shattered the Elden Ring in an attempt to kill herself, but failed. She had Hewg strive to create a weapon that could kill her as a fail safe. Then she began to call back the tarnished in an attempt to maximize the possibility of someone killing her.
I don’t believe she determines who sees Grace. She might have the ability to withhold it entirely from people but I don’t think she ultimately controls it. I think that is actually the Greater Will. Logically, she would want as many tarnished as possible to see grace (to maximize the number of potential assassins) but very few actually do (and you are the only one who never loses it). This implies the grace has been specifically given to specific people for some more esoteric purpose. Perhaps the Greater Will recognizes your character specifically as the key figure in this melodrama, whether you choose to maintain its order or not.
@@SorryFace The simplest reason why Gideon fights you is because he himself wants to become Elden Lord. He says at the roundtable "We both intend to become Elden Lord, and stand before the Elden Ring..." So I always suspected you would eventually have to fight him.
It could be that Gideon simply gave up hope in restoring the Elden Ring. This is a recurring theme in Souls games, characters losing the will to go on. If we assume the default ending is the age of fracture, it could lend credence to Gideon's hopelessness, since in this ending, the Elden Ring isn't fully repaired. That's probably the simplest way to interpret his dialogue, by assuming he's talking about the age of fracture and his hopelessness in the face of that.
I've always been skeptical of Ratatoskr's idea that Marika was part of the conspiracy that killed her own son. It's more likely Marika shattered the Elden Ring in response to Godwyn's death. Ranni did it to slay her own mortal flesh, and Rykard helped because he was against the Erdtree. It all adds up.
With regards to Grace, I would disagree with Crunchy and say that Grace is distinct from runes. Grace is always described as a light, and has strong associations with nobility and Godhood. The intro tells us that tarnished are "guided by Grace," however I don't think you meet any other tarnished in the game who can see Guidance of Grace besides yourself. They either lost the ability to see it, like Rogier, or were never able to in the first place. I think this is a 'Chosen Undead' type of situation. Your character is the one tarnished guided by Grace. Whatever will of Marika exists in the land has chosen your character specifically to be the champion.
@@CrowsofAcheron Gideon fearing the age of fracture does make the most sense. He doesn’t seem to know the mending runes exist.
As for grace being the Will of Marika, I’m still not sold on that. I agree that the player character has specifically been singled out, but grace (or whatever controls it) clearly has its own agenda. Margot is “grace-given” and seems to have powers derived from the same light. However he opposes your quest. It could be that he was selected to try and maintain order after the shattering and once he becomes obsolete he can be defeated. But it’s not made clear. Grace could be the equivalent of the body’s immune system, taking measures to put out fires in the system as best it can. It only follows its programming and can’t recognize when it creates conflicting solutions.
The ruin of death symbol is present in the version of the Elden Ring located in Farum Azula, down the middle dead center. Which makes me believe that the the version in Farum Azula is the full Elden Ring and the one on the title screen is that of the Golden Order with the rune of death as well as possibly others removed from it.
Almost certainly.
Any DLC will likely expound on where those other runes are.
I’m not sure I see it... I suppose the Rune of Death could fit onto one of those circles, but that’s true of the title screen ER as well.
@@CrunchyVideos nah man I took a snap of it and had it full screen 65” in 4k, it’s dead center in the middle of the symbol in Farum Azula completely clear to see. It’s where all the circle intersect
Was fire removed from the Golden Order because it routinely destroyed the spirits that had returned to the Erdtree? Maybe there's a capacity to the number of spirits that the Erdtree can contain; eventually, by removing the fire, the tree becomes overgrown and bloated. Additional trees have to be seeded in order to contain the excess souls.
This could be why the tree doesn't burn until the rune of death is restored; the spirits literally can't burn until they are able to die.
Perhaps Merika realized that, while her age was indefinite by removing destined death, the ensuing age would become bloated and overburdened and more and more people died. She was behind the conspiracy and burning the Erdtree after realizing that there was nothing to gain by continuing this age.
The flame of frenzy feels that life is not worth living. By burning the tree entirely the the ground, death of the body is also death of the soul. It's the difference between a necessary controlled burn to stabilize an ecosystem and a destructive, all-out forest fire.
I do believe Ranni was in the egg that Radagon gave to Rennala and Ren just raised Ranni even though they were not related. This would explain why Ranni is an Emperyan as she was just birthed of Radagon. I think that ER has gnostic themes as well as alchemical and Ranni is supposed to be like what Christ in the Gnostic tradition. In Gnosticisim Jesus was sent by Sophia to save humanity from the Demiurge. Writing this makes me think that Godwyn might be a male child that Marika created herself through an egg like Ranni. That last part is just speculation and maybe is directly disproven through some item description. It would just fit thematically if Marika had a son by herself while Radagon had a daughter by himself.
3+ hours? This will easily get me through work today, thank you
Same, I absolutely adore these podcasts, the longer the better to me. I love for these.
The grace mentioned coming from Godfrey, was actually Morgott when he disintegrated.
Yeah, I said dunno how it's still being mistaken by grace
And yet it exactly mimics the guidance of grace that originates from some SoGs. And it just so happens to link two foes who are clearly fated to face each other in combat. The Guidance of Grace led us to Godfrey, and it led Godfrey to us. A final battle for the Elden Throne.
I always kind of assumed that Godwyn wasn't the intended target on the night of the black knifes, because it doesn't quite make sense for Marika to kill her son. I'm not sure who could have been the target, maybe Marika herself? and Godwyn got in the way?
Though I think it's clear Marika was the mastermind of the Night, this bothers me as well. Best I can figure is that Godwyn is too perfect an heir. If The Shattering is the goal, and it clearly is, then Marika wants/needs her children to war. To pit their ambitions one against the other in mortal combat and see who emerges the strongest and most worthy.
Perhaps Godwyn is a threat to that vision. Perhaps he's so, blindingly and obviously perfect as the heir to the Golden Order that his personality or position would stem any conflict before it starts. That he's so respected in the Lands Between, and by his siblings, that he could end the war simply by asserting his birthright.
Godwyn was the first of his line and an exemplar for the golden order. Killing him could be symbolic for your disdain for a system you're forced into like when you need the blood of a maiden for Varre.
Hell yeah! Lore insanity time baby!
Has anyone mentioned or noticed that the summoning pool statue resembles the people crucified throughout limbgrave, and not the statue of marika specifically? Not sure if it means anything, but I find it odd and wonder if it means anything
Poor crunchy can’t express his ideas properly before rat loses his patience lol
This podcast is so good. Sharing thoughts, meetings of minds. Not to kiss ass but this channel feels like it's worlds ahead of everyone else when it comes to working toward true comprehension of Elden Ring.
There are phantom animals and trees in the evergoals in the snow area. I also do think the rune of death does look like a flipped over elden ring/ marika logo. Just without the rings. More so the bottom of them top but it for sure is similar. Not sure what that means but I see it.
im stuck on a detail. it really has dug into my mind and i just can't let it go. The Three Sisters. the name of the region where Ranni's, Renna's, and Seluvius' Rises are located. it seems to me that seluvius has moved in and claimed the other one as him... and idk, but my intuition, my line of thinking... what if that was melina's rise? all the talk of twins in the game, and the curses of all of the demigod children... imagine triplets? it may not be anything... but thats where my speculation goes. i know its not really evidence driven... just that gut feeling.... im sticking my flag into the ground that melina, ranni, and renna (the gloam eyed queen) are a set of triplets. lets go dlc! make me wrong!
Melina has wrong hair colour tho, her's is like chestnut. All the Radagon/Renala children were redheads (as if we needed more reasons to be attracted to Ranni, damn)
Great video. 2 small criticisms. Rat, you tend to jump in a speak over your guests when you get excited. It would be a less frustrating listening experience if you try to avoid that. Also, in the first hour, ads every ten minutes is a bit much. Get your money, but it doesn’t create a good listening experience.
Pinned comment has a link to spotify and other platforms. Episodes are released there a day after TH-cam.
@@ratatoskr6324 that helps. I’d rather donate on patreon than give TH-cam ad revenue. Cheers!
It feels to me like Elden Ring as a whole is a critique of Alchemy and the idea that we can decide what the good part of things is and separate that from the bad or useless parts and get something better. The best hand is a five fingered hand, but they separated them into the two fingers (who can point, but not really grasp) and the three fingers (who definitely can grasp). Leyndell presents itself as the pinnacle of refinement, superior to the misbegotten and the demi-humans pushed to the fringes, while throwing all its malformed children into the basement.
I think the point is for the player to come to the question, "what even is the point of all this?" Because all this alchemy doesn't actually make anything better. Progress is a myth. Refinement is a myth. And the more you seek it the further you get from the actual good.
The cutscene after defeating Maliketh definitely does NOT mention the Erdtree burning with black flame. Just dropping this comment now as I've gone to double check. Enjoying the podcast so far though.
EDIT: That section about Ranni and Melina was just fascinating. I'm pretty exhausted by people who think they are the same, and yet that was the most compelling argument I've heard yet. It also implies that Marika and Ranni really could've been in cahoots not just about the NotBK, but pretty much every event that takes place involving those two + Melina. And yet after all this brilliant conjecture, we're still missing some vital thread that ties this all together. Ratatoskr, I must say I'm in the same boat as you mentioned in the beginning of the video - I've read everything and I just can't quite make it all make sense.
Wow thanks for the correction! I was going through the text dump and didn’t check the actual cutscene in-game; there is a cut line where Enia says “Black flames cover the Erdtree” but she doesn’t say it in-game.
@@CrunchyVideos ah, I didn’t realize it was cut! Hm so we can’t take it as cannon, BUT… seems that was the intention. There’s definitely a little bit of black flavor to the color the Erdtree is burning at the end of the game, but it doesn’t look similar to the black flame we know.
Here’s a hypothesis: what if, when Maliketh seals away destined death and this takes the power of the black flame away, that also drains it of its color? What if the flame we see released in the post-Maliketh cutscene is the TRUE color of the godslaying black flame, and what we see during our adventure is the muted, powerless version? Total conjecture, but a possibility!
@@TheBlaringBlue Yeah that’s where my mind’s at. That actually just triggered some thoughts; both the eclipsed sun and the somber smithing stones are described as “drained of color”. Possibly also related to the “leaden” black moon of Nokstella. Connection maybe?
@@CrunchyVideos This drained of color idea also potentially adds some additional context to Iji's death. He's surrounded by Black Knives, yet his body does not burn in red/black death flame, but in Godslaying blackflame. We've never seen the Assassin's wield the godslaying flame because their knives are imbued with a fragment of death. However, this still doesn't really lay out why he's burning in blackflame and not death flame.
Lastly, both death flame and blackflame work similarly mechanically - they each tick your HP down extra after being hit. The blackflame doesn't reduce your max hp because as we've already established, it's not at full power.
@@TheBlaringBlue I assume by death flame you mean the red effect of Maliketh’s blade and the Black Knives? Because there is also death flame that’s gold and black, from the Eclipse Shotel.
"O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half."
This line relayed to us by Melina always gave me the impression Marika chooses Radagon for her marriage (consort, merging partner, whatever) based on his position.
She has absolute power over him.
He's proven himself in battle and is absolutely loyal to the Golden Order. Which Marika houses physically in her body via the Elden Ring. A state bestowed upon her by the Greater Will.
Radagon is brilliant in battle, an academic, completely faithful to the Golden Order.
Marika chooses him because he can't refuse her. It would go against everything he has fought for and believes in.
Marika only has to say the word and he comes running to Leyndell. He may hate it, but he can't refuse the call.
It makes me wonder... Follow me for a second. So Empyreans get Shadows. Marika's empyrean shadow is Maliketh. Ok. But what if Marika could or did get a different shadow when she ascended and became a God?
Now as a God she gets a higher order of Shadow. She gets to upgrade. She gets Radagon. "Lean Hound of the Golden Order" I believe Marika calls him. ( or maybe because she banished Maliketh to Faram Azula, so she needed a "new" one. Either way.)
I believe Radagon was ALWAYS Marika to begin with, being the male aspect of Marika as Trina is the feminine aspect of Miquella. I think Marika became Radagon in order to bring the Carian family under the golden order. The children born of Radagon and Renalla being demigods because they’re technically of Marika’s stock (Radagon IS Marika). Radagon being called back to Marika to become elden lord is just her returning to her female form. In my game the line calls him “mine other self” not “mine other half” but I’ve heard quite a few people claim the line is half rather than self, which is pretty confusing but I wonder if it’s a localization issue.
@@christiancannon4774 i seem to recall they "became demigod stepchildren" when radagon married marika. to me, this implies that ranni etc were not demigods from birth, but somehow radagon becoming a god made them demigods after the fact.
tho i dont remember where that is said; i think it was ranni…
Tbh thought this was going a diffferent route. I think this line 100% confirms radagon being separate from marika, and that the secret talked about in the preceptor mask = something different. Radagon is a different person, and when he becomes one with marika, there are actions in conflict with one of those 2 parties consistently -As if two agendas are being fulfilled separately, and in conflict with eachother.
@@jonathanbusche8093 yeah, I started with the quote verbatim so that there would be no question as to what I was referring to. Radagon was most certainly a completely separate individual. The mask description actually never mentions a secret, just that "all of their matters were to be kept strictly private" My assumption there is that Radagon wanted his life with Renalla and their children to be isolated from Leyndell and prying eyes.
In kingdom hearts logic. Melina is rannis nobody .
Alchemy is the linchpin to the souls fractal! Been waiting for a talk like this thank you very much!
I haven't seen anyone posit it yet pretty much anywhere, but my theory about Radagon's origins and why he already has an Elden Rune is that Marika used the Great Rune of the Unborn to split Radagon off from her. I think this fits both the lore and the alchemical parallels (to my knowledge; I know only the bare minimum about alchemical stuff).
For one thing it solves why Radagon had the Great Rune of the Unborn to begin with. The Great Rune's item description explicitly states that it is the amber egg that Rennala clutches. Miriel's dialogue on Rennala states that Radagon bequeathed the amber egg to her, likely when they divorced. This isn't explicitly stated but it doesn't make much sense to have happened later, and it couldn't have happened after the Elden Ring was shattered because after that Marika/Radagon were trapped inside the Erdtree and couldn't freely leave to give Rennala gifts. This then suggests that Radagon gave Rennala the Great Rune of the Unborn when they separated, which in turn suggests that Radagon already had the Great Rune of the Unborn long before the Elden Ring was shattered and Great Runes became available to those strong enough to take them. Why would Radagon have had the Great Rune of the Unborn before the Elden Ring was shattered, and why wouldn't it be part of the Elden Ring before the Shattering? I think the answer to those two questions is that Marika already split it off from the Elden Ring and used it to create Radagon.
This interpretation would help answer some questions about Radagon's children. For one thing, it would explain why Ranni could be an empyrean. If Radagon was always a split off part of Marika then he was always a god (even if he happened to not be one at the time he married Rennala), and thus his children would be semi-divine as well. This also explains why Rennala's children count as demigods even though the text says they were merely adopted into the Golden Lineage: they were secretly always part of the Golden Lineage. Lastly, I think it largely explains why Radagon and Marika's children are cursed: it's basically the result of divine incest (or selfcest in this case). Incest usually has negative ramifications, something that is especially true from GRRM's A Song of Ice and FIre, and it would make sense thematically that the children of two gods who were fundamentally the same person would have the highest potential divine power but would also be marred by their incestuous nature. In real life the effects of incest usually manifest in physical or mental illnesses or deformities passed down from regressive genes from the parents that were carried on by a lack of genetic diversity (I think: I'm a history guy, not a scientist, so if I'm wrong please tell me), whereas here the incest is divinely-inspired rather than physically, so the nature of Miquella and Malenia's deformities are also divine rather than strictly physical (though they definitely both have physical deformities as well).
This interpretation also plays into some of the alchemical subtext. Radagon's marriage to Rennala, and his children with her, represent new variables Marika could add to the Elden Ring since their pairing had the potential to result in new empyreans. In addition, it fits my understanding of the general theme of the rebis: that you start with an imperfect whole, split it into the Red King and the White Queen, and then join them back together with the power of a dragon. So you start with Marika alone, she uses the Great Rune of the Unborn to perfectly rebirth herself into a second body, then they both do their own things and then eventually reunite through the power of the Elden Ring, which also take the form of the Elden Beast which overall looks and acts quite draconic.
As I said, I haven't seen anyone else posit this theory and it makes the most sense to me in terms of Radagon and Marika's relationship. I could definitely be wrong about some stuff because it's been a month or two since I've played or thought about Elden Ring, but what do you think? Plausible or no?
EDIT: Also, on the subject of the Night of the Black Knives and the Game Awards story trailer, I think it's important to remember that the trailer itself might be canon but not accurate. The narrator of the trailer is Ranni, a character who introduces herself by lying to the player and giving a fake name, and is also someone who helped plot and perpetrate the Night of the Black Knives. Already I think the story trailer's dialogue must be seen as suspect because Ranni presents herself as a storyteller explaining the history of the Shattering, but conveniently fails to mention the fact that she's behind it all (or at least one of a number of conspirators behind it). She's already leaving out some information, so it wouldn't at all be out of character for her to leave out more information.
EDIT 2: On the subject of empyreans, I don't think Ranni is related to the Gloam-eyed Queen. The lore speaks of the Gloam-eyed Queen as an ancient, potentially mythological figure, an old enemy of Marika's who was defeated long ago. Ranni's birth is relatively recent, as she was born of the union of Radagon and Rennala. I could see Rennala having been around before the rise of Queen Marika since she appears to be thousands of years old, but I don't think Radagon existed before Marika claimed the Elden Ring and became a god, and without Radagon there is no Ranni. Ranni also does not appear to have any connection to blackflame: she stole Destined Death from Maliketh and imbued the Black Knives with its power, but the Black Knives don't appear to have any connection to black flames. Instead they shoot red-black laser blades in the same way that Maliketh's Black Blade does. I don't think there's any connection there, though given how convoluted Elden Ring's lore is I could certainly be wrong.
It seems most likely to me that the Gloam-eyed Queen was an empyrean candidate before the Age of the Erdtree and that she was in contention with Marika to become the new god. We know of at least two gods of the Elden Ring: the nameless god whom Placidusax was Elden Lord for, and Marika. It therefore stands to reason that before Marika's age as god of the Elden Ring there would have been a different god of the Elden Ring and that Marika would have been an empyrean candidate of the Two Fingers with the purpose of replacing that god (it's also possible there was another unnamed god in between Placidusax's age and Marika's, but that's baseless speculation). If we assume that that's true (if you can find me evidence against that theory then I'll be glad to know it), then it makes sense that there would be other empyreans chosen by other Two Fingers who would have opposed Marika and attempted to become god of the Elden Ring themselves. The Gloam-eyed Queen appears to have been one of the most powerful empyreans (she did, after all, lead an immensely feared cult of god-murdering sadists) and was probably the most likely candidate to become the new god of the Elden Ring had Marika and Maliketh been defeated.
The overall sense that I get from the Elden Ring and the Two Fingers / Greater Will is that at some point in each god's reign the Two Fingers / Greater Will decides that a change in divine leadership is in order, for whatever reason (AFAIK we don't know this). Following this, a bunch of divine empyreans are born, each Two Fingers champions one, and they have sort of a Holy Grail War kind of thing, just with guardian beasts (i.e. Blaidd or Maliketh) rather than summoned Heroic Spirits. Because of this I don't think the Gloam-eyed Queen is all that important in the grand scheme of things. She's an ancient empyrean who lost her battle, and her circumstances (assuming my theory is correct) inform us about how empyreans are selected to become gods and what kinds of people follow empyreans, but she's not actually a super important person. It's possible that Melina is the Gloam-eyed Queen but I don't think it's super relevant to the plot or anything. If she is the Gloam-eyed Queen then it would be another case of Marika giving birth to an empyrean, which she's done quite a bit of already, but I don't think it would be a huge revelation for Melina's or Marika's character one way or the other.
my interpretation of the black-haired woman in the Frenzied Flame ending was that it was Ranni and Melina united (she has Melina's face but the same black hair Ranni has when you find her at the finger corps). With the idea of "the fire puts things (back) into a confused mass, that would make a LOT of sense.
This was really good! Hopefully you'll do more of these. I'm looking forward to you guys slowly piecing things together
On the "red king" associated with the sun and the "white queen" associated with the moon. That must then become one. 1:30:25
Could this possibly have to do with Radagon and Rennala? Rennala is obvious but Radagon seems to be constantly trying to mix incantations and sorcery, most of his attacks are golden light based attacks. Flaming Red hair, lots of fire and sun imagery.
A reason for Radagon to leave that union could be an incompatibility with Rennala. Unable to unify(become one), Marika offers to have him be the next Elden Lord, and he interested in creating a more perfect union accepts.
Or at least my thought process behind this.
The stormlord is likely placidusax. He's right in the biggest storm in the entire game
Only flaw: what does a titanic Elder Dragon need with a human sized/shaped castle? And if Godfrey already defeated the king of all dragons, why is anybody impressed when Godwyn fights Fortisax to a standstill later? Or, alternatively, if the Godwyn/Fortisax fight happened first, why does anybody remember it when Godfrey scored an even bigger win later?
@@brentgarrison6245 I forget where, but its stated Fortissax attacking the capital initiated the war. And its remembered for two key reasons. 1 is it's the first and only time the capital walls were actually brought down, and 2 that the friendship kicked off the ancient dragon cult. Both important events
@@brentgarrison6245 to your last point, the fortissax fight likely happened in the capital, whereas placidusax is a much less well-known being
Humanity sprites were also similar to grace in appearance, I’ve always wondered that connection but it could also just be a nod to games past.
The biggest evidence for Radagon being Merica all along, to my mind, has always been that it’s more narratively interesting from a storytelling perspective. Them being separate is just … flatter.
Love the discussion.
You're using a very strange standard of "evidence", there.
@@PowerfulSkeleton given there isn’t a lot of evidence either way, I think it’s plenty solid evidence. As a writer myself we tend to go with the most interesting option.
@@Arsenic7 Which is an entirely subjective metric.
@@PowerfulSkeleton it is but also there is a reason authors keep repeating themes throughout history and it’s not because they are bad at writing stories.
@@Arsenic7 I don't know what to do with the argument that a vague story point is going to be one thing because it's the most interesting option to a slice of other writers in the audience. I wish you all the best in your narrative endeavours, nonetheless.
I just started listening so this might be addressed later on but alchemy wasn't at all a materialist endeavor, that's completely wrong. Alchemy is the conjunction between the actual and the ideal, the bringing forth of higher planes, as above so below.
Later part of it became chemistry but the process which alchemists were most interested into was the refinement of the soul.
You should talk with Max Derrat on alchemy, he's looked much into it in the past years
You must have chuckled hearing later when he actually mentions Max Derrat. I am loving these philosophical and cryptoscientific breakdowns of the series from TH-cam content creators
This is my third time listening to this and the dude makes hella sense.... the erdtree is sort of this vacuum archive that carries the memories (souls) of the entire world.
I don’t have much to go on with this but remembering how the elden beast turned radagon and marika into a weapon, the finger maiden which are connected to the fingers who in turn are connected to the greater will can turn remembrances into weapons or spells. Thinking back to struggle, we really only get these from opponents who have struggled and we ourselves are suppose to struggle against, perhaps this is because the struggle purifies whatever the essence of the remembrance into a weapon or spell. Since Marika wants a weapon that can slay a god, perhaps the point of struggling into eternity isn’t to actually struggle eternally but until the struggle births a remembrance strong enough to forge a weapon that can slay a god.
To Crunchy, I am currently listening to the podcast at work, love your input!! I HAD to come here and mention to your point about the spirit versions of Godfrey, Loretta and Vyke, that in the golden spirit fight against Godfrey, his axe is still double sided and unbroken!! Where as the paintings in game, and promo art out of game, show the half axe-head after its been broken.
My brain immediately thought of this as you explained your theory, and I think you are correct. Or on the right track at least
I think that struggle is also a pertinent thing if we look at the Japanese context. Buddhism's main pillars (Four Noble Truths) are to recognize that "pain is suffering" and that we have to recognize it and through meditation and Enlightenment, you can overcome it. I think that the Frenzied Flame tends to stop its efforts at recognizing the suffering and wanting it to end not by overcoming it, but by dying, which leads not to an end, but to rebirth. I think that the Law of Causality is basically a nod to karma and the Law of Regression is the law of rebirth. Of course one thing can easily be linked to the other. IDK, man, I'm nerd Buddhist lol
Then you are right person to ask, i know some of Buddhism but i have various interests in eclectic occult and mystical and mythological stuff so i am not sure.
Isnt elden ring ( golden order ...i believe they are one and the same basically ), as in the overreaching law that the world of Elden Ring is governed, basically Dharma ?
It reminded me of that concept, only in a way that is imposed on a world from the outside and not natural, like in our world. I researched and studied Gnosticism a bit and that imposing bit is straight up from Gnosticism where Gnostics mainly believe that the order set by Christian/Hebrew god is actually a kind of spiritual invasion and assault Earth and Humanity lasting for thousands of years, it is very similar to events of Elden Ring in some concepts.
So i think it is a mixture of Buddhism and Gnosticism and parts of western mythology.
@@DreamskyDance Precisely! Dharma is, in a more precise definition, the term for “the teachings” of the Buddha what could be interpreted as the Golden Order, because the Buddha through his teachings told how the world should work and how we should act. There are some differences between many sects of Buddhism, some more traditional and others more contemporary. To some Buddhists (like me), Buddha was just a teacher and a mentor who taught cool stuff and he’s not at all a figure close to godhood and founded a philosophy. On the other hand, most of Mahayana traditions fall more in line with Gnosticism :)
So, what if the "can not" in Gideon´s death voice line was more a statement of "should not", rather than a statement of fact. It could just be that he doesn´t believe it to be possible of course.
I was gonna listen to this on my plane ride today but it’s not on Spotify yet :( guess I’ll have to wait. Love these talks man, lore speculation is my favorite topic
It's there now.
@@ratatoskr6324 just started listening and the discussion about alchemy and the principles behind it has really put causality and regression into perspective, this is a great episode man
Melina is most definitely not Ranni just based off the the way Rannis corpse looks at the top of her tower.
That was a very clever find from Crunchy about how the rune of death is similar to crucified Marika, especially now that we know Marika’s rune looks exactly like that from the DLC. I think SmoughTown did a great job speculating about how Marika’s rune is a rune of life and it’s opposite is destined death
There are 0 videos explaining what the ancestor spirits are, and I can't find any item descriptions that explain them. Does anyone have any theories?
Just had a thought, what if…Rennala couldn’t have children. I know that seems mad. But Ranni is an Empyrean and must have been born from from marika/radagon alone. Why would this happen? Also radagon gave her a gift on leaving her that enable her to create her own children, and she seems fixated on the idea of being a mother, rocking a cradle alone in her room. I don’t know what that means for Rykard and Radahn, but it’s just an idea.
That is a hugely probable idea ngl. Huge plot hole there with running being known and confirmed as empyrean. And emperyans have to be born of pure blood.
*Devours this podcast* - "Hrmph...feed me more!"
This was the best Elden Ring podcast I've ever heard. I listened to the whole thing twice. Please more of this guy Crunchy. But the narrator never mentions Black Flame after you defeat Maliketh. When the Erdtree starts to burn it mentions something about a "dark fate," so that's what Crunchy was probably thinking of. 34:00
Experiencing this video for the first time after having the knowledge that I do now, the disdain for Godefroy has been here since the start! Absolutely love to see it
"i have no interest in being correct in the things i say in this podcast" best quote ever
Godefroy is 100% a different person. Kristoff gets special burial rites for capturing him and for all intents and purposes, he appears to be the example of "Grafting = Might" that Godrick saw while fleeing the capital w/ the mimic veil.
For the Gideon Ofnir quotes, maybe it has to do with Marika's intentions. She could be trying to make a god to replace the Greater Will which "ends" that era, and she'd rather follow a god she created. Then Ofnir sees this and basically thinks she's overreaching and it's an impossible task.
Marika:Radagon::Miquella:St. Trina