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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ธ.ค. 2023
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First of all Thank You John for making the FM vs GT7 video! I’m a long time fan of the Forza franchise going back to FM2 on Xbox 360, as a fan I’m extremely confused and disappointed in the results of the new game. Especially in regards to what we were shown vs what we have, you highlighting these things only helps us as a community ask the question. What the hell happened with this game?!? Development started in late 2019 according Dan Greenawalt so regardless this game had ample time compared to previous titles. It’s not toxic to be disappointed and have questions, thank you once again for the video!
Ground textures on Forza 2023 looks worse than Forza 7. Forza 7 also loooks more detailed.
GT always was better and looked better. Why be surprised. Microsoft has mad a good or good looking game in a very long time.
@@east00100% cap. GT has always struggled with environment and car sounds.
Started in 2019? What where they doing after FM7 and before 2019?
@TheWholeGrainBread_Real GT compared to other races has always been known to have good looking environments. The detailing of the cars are top notch. Forza has always been low IQ, boring trash. Xbox fans are known to be slow so makes sense that all of their 1st party games are soulless.
Gt7 with PSvr2 and a steering wheel is unbeatable immersion.
Fully modded AC on PC definitely beats it but yes it is still a very awesome experience for a budget. But the ghosting in GT7 is super distracting to me
PSVR2 (and VR in general) is just a huge PITA to use.
@@fcukugimmeausername not really..you plug in the single USB, put it on your head and that's it. not sure what's such a hassle about that
yea dude.. 10 years and its stronger and better than ever. i love AC@@redfoxsports4749
@@redfoxsports4749 came here to say that as well. No game has come close to modded Assetto Corsa. Forza and GT don't even feel like real cars on a wheel compared to Assetto.
I think John was too light with FM.
The real Forza fans are up in arms over the latest version and they really needed someone with a large voice to take the game to task; because hopefully that’ll lead to better updates to the game to fix the issues.
Bring such a light touch might mean Turn 10 will feel like they got away with things like lowering the car model quality and the half baked campaign mode.
I think DF and John especially are tired of witnessing how their videos are taken often as ammunition in fanboy wars, so thats why i think his approach was, lets say, rather diplomatic.
And if you can read between the lines i think its clear where he stands in most aspects, and thats GT7.
I am in the same boat, super disappointed in Forza and it is the objectively uglier game compared to GT7. I honestly dont know how anyone with a good taste in videogames visuals could even pick Forzas visuals over GT7s. The only exception i'd make is during night with rain. Forza indeed looks amazing in these moments (even though maybe a bit over the top), but in every other setting the game falls flat on its face.
The campaign had nothing to do with a video about rendering though.
I can't believe people are debating whether you should announce a winner because it makes people feel bad. I mean come on.
I had a guy telling me Polyphony is lazy for not showing visible engine swaps, claiming it was the easiest thing in the world with the tools polyphony uses. Its hard to believe people out there thinking making games is easy when videos like yours exist.
Motorsport 4 was peak Forza Motorspot and remains my favourite racing game to this day. But I currently play GT7 and Forza Horizon 5/4 these days. Great video guys!
FM4 is still the GOAT of console racing games. I don't know why they went the direction they're in since FM5.... Very sad 😢
Forza Motorsport 4 is the best they made. Followed by 6. This forza doesn’t look like anything in the demo.
I'm confused as to how determining a winner can be considered as toxic. Yes there will always be fans of each that will argue till they're blue in the face, but what ever happened to being mature enough to accept someone's conclusion from testing, even if it isn't what you want to hear?
People are just way too over-sensitive nowadays. They want everything tailored to make them feel better about themselves and their decisions.
If videos like these are not made, then devs are not held accountable for anything. One might think comparison vids are toxic, but I think they help the end user as the devs try to improve on what they released.
I also think a lot of the reason for so much toxicity is purely because of how T10 advertised FM pre release. The words they used and the video they showed... I mean, as of right now, the game is not what they described. But I'd be surprised if they weren't working on bringing it up to what they promised. As a GT fan, remember, PD released a sub par game initially, and have resolved so much with updates. Give it time.
If you enjoy one over the other, it shouldn't matter what the other one is like. Enjoy them for what they are and have fun.
Pussification
Smart words. 🤘🏻
Pretty sure GT7's primary issue was the lack of campaign, which I don't believe has been addressed. The only other thing I remember was in game currency, but that's a piss-easy fix.
@JZStudiosonline alongside that, GT had physics issues, server issues, various bugs, glitches, force feedback problems, kerb hacks, PP issues. I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.
I think single player will be much more fulfilling if they ever release GT Sophy for all of single player.
@@Brocky05 Isn't it like... 30 random races though?
Games are a product we pay for. If the product is subpar we all have the right to point it out. Any time you put something out into the market, you don't get brownie points for effort if what you put forth is bad. You're expected to go back to the drawing board and do better next time.
I think the issue is people think being critical about anything nowadays is being negative. We don't move forward just pointing out positives. We move forward by identifying what needs work and could be better and hopefully entice the folks who need to to put in the time to improve upon it with our critique!
Makes sense, but people just like to be dicks when being critical.
Here's the thing, there are no excuses, because they can fix anything in any game today; look no further than GTA5.
Love this comment 💪🏾💯
yeah why are we pretending like Forza was even close to GT in that video? Why cater to fanboys that cant take criticism of their games? If its true it should not be controversial.
It was either one of the STALKER or Metro devs (A lot of the same people anyway) that said they want the game judged as it is, not given a pass because it was made under shitty circumstances because the end user doesn't care. They want a good game, not a sob story about how tough it was.
Incidentally, Stalker 2 is still being developed after the dev team had to flee Ukraine after the Russian invasion. I don't give a shit that the devs may or may not have worked overtime when they put out a bad product and there's other people doing the same thing in a god damn war zone. The fact is they had 4 more years than usual and put out a product with less content, worse visuals, lacking features, and an ill-conceived campaign/leveling system that any one of the employees should've pointed out as a terrible idea.
There is genuinely no reason to buy FM8 over 7 when everything is worse except for physics.
Honestly it was a very respectful video towards each developer with some constructive criticism involved. At the end of the day, we share our hobby with children young and old, there will always be arguments.
Well not really
I agree with you
Yeah it was a really good video. I think DF does a great job even though I dont agree with them all the time... but that just comes down to personal preference. Just as I use to love playing Battlefield, but that goes way back to BF3 and BF4. I really disliked BF 1, BF 5, and hated 2042. However many people love playing those games, so they must not be that bad even though I didnt like them. BF players and COD players use to go at each other like FORZA & GT are right now hahahaaa
@@BiGG_X Yeah man i was around for the BF3 vs COD times too and that was way worse. Even the xbox 360 vs ps3 multiplatform game comparisons would cause chaos. Maybe i just dont notice it as much since i've gotten older
GT7 is better, there is no arguments. only copes
Yeah, I still don't understand how they went from 2 years of development time to 6 years and the result was a bit disappointing(?) And not only graphics, but bugs and performance issues specially on PC. I also saw some people were complaining about the game feeling incomplete as well. Idk, seems weird
At least 3-4 years was spent rebuilding the engine from the ground up
@valkeitos3-4years to upgrade an engine to look worse than a cross gen ps5 game? Only at xbox
@@valkeitos It´s all just weird. I expect Halo Infinite levels of "bringing the engine up to par", while not having the scope and cap of what´s possible to do down, as per the engineers/programmers of the engine, the console specs, and the project directors. It is all just weird and directionless. Throwing shit at the wall and doing busy work(and remodelling the promised to be) would result in 3 times the game, and if not sabotaged, it would play, and be good.
They can do anything with the UI, at any time- like in FM7, cut out the lootboxes(suddenly possible-eh), but no change to the upgrade and torment of buying them, looking at a "pretty garage", that, that´s too much to ask. You need to do it, we cannot do any changes, expect news on race modes and FRR soon(!). BIG Things commin´! And it was a Fyre festival.
Accessibility and gametime optimization is paramount.
i think the bigger issue when it comes to forza motorsport is that it has no soul or character and feels like another racing game due to how bad the presentation is over all with generic menus and repeating the same race structure over and over again until you turn off the game
@@mniakan754 i just think they don't listen to players as much as we would like. The game also needs some serious handling and physics updates that make the cars more realistic to drive let alone tune.
Microsoft should safe their reputation by means of add in game patches which improving all aspects showed in first trailer.
I feel like more dudes crawled under cars with microphones to record them for GT than for forza.
That’s very important to me 🙏
Fun fact: Mike caviezel,former turn 10 sound guy does the car sounds for them at polyphony digital,he was around since gt sport but he really got things going in gt7 and you hear it 100%
I feel like Sound is a win for Forza, GT sounds still sound very synthetic
@@RogueBeatsARGPersonally after hearing both, I'd say it's the complete opposite. Look at the Lexus LFA for example, on GT, it sounds so accurate to the real thing meanwhile on Forza recently it always sounds so synthesized and almost like they're putting this filter on it to make it louder which really just ends up hurting my ears lol
John, your video was very respectful, i am a Forza Motorsport fun my self and i wasn't offended by anything you said! It opened my eyes to the fact that GT looks better by a long shot! I don't know how the physics feel in that game , because i haven't played any GT game since 4. But i might just pick up a PS5 because of your comparison video! Keep up the good work!
Get a wheel and PSVR2 for it later on and have your mind blown.
The best way to game is multi-platform in my opinion. There are great things to miss out on everywhere.
Every racing game feels different in physics, tyre model, and force-feedback, even amongst highly regarded PC simulators, but they all make sense and react about right in their own world. For me the recent physics update in GT7 with all the assists off on hard tyres using a wheel feels similar enough to be able to jump between it and PC sims without learning bad habits.
If you're really into racing games GT7 may be worth getting a PS5. And a year of PlayStation plus premium is $120 vs game pass ultimate $216 a year is amazing value. Game trials and some great games
@@rockettbuggey5990regular game pass at $120 a year works fine…I use Xbox through my gaming laptops…I used to be a hardcore Sony pony…I still own my 3 vita’s and my very limited big boss psp…but as I age and with custody of 4 kids I bought 3 gaming laptops when ps5 released and then later I bought a regular steam deck upon release and now a steam deck OLED at 1tb which was $703 with tax…also my Xbox account was from the 360 days, windows picked off where I last left and I still add to my achievements…I truly love GT though I still play gt psp on my vita….and no other racing game “track” fills that for me…that being said forza horizon series is fire.
If you are willing to pick up a ps5 for gt7, at some point, pick up a psvr2. It is genuinely mindblowing for a racing game.
If you have a compatible wheel then GT is great! If you mainly game on a pad, Forza is relaxing and with the sheer number of assists, you can turn your brain off and get some wins and upgrade your car / garage. Gran Turismo 7 by almost all metrics is a better experience, however to sit at home after a hard day at work - Forza has that weird pull of something like Diablo or Football Manager. Kick back and gain some xp.
Well, am a huge Xbox fanboy! But you have to give credit where credits is Due!! And I saw the whole video and to be honest..just from what I was seeing. I think you were being very kind to Turn 10. Gran Turismo just looked better and looked more realistic in just about every comparison. While Forza looked Generic, almost like it was just another racing game. Which was Shocking since this was Developed to be a True Next Gen game.
A crapgamer subscriber 😂😂😂
Trashbox forever last place with no games 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@MichaelM28Look, a pony with no life!
Sony fanboy GARBAGE!
Alex's criticisms would be regarded "toxic" by the ironically toxic fanboy community. We can't call fair comparisons and logical conclusions toxic. Ultimately everyone is entitled to their opinion, but John eloquently and tactfully gave GT7 its due. Too many far distance camera low res twitter video screenshots have been used against that game. But under a proper spotlight, its incredibly impressive. 🔥🔥🔥
Graphics isn’t a matter of option..it’s a matter of facts..and it quite clear gran turismo has superior graphics. Hold Turn 10 accountable so they can do better instead of praising mediocre work
@@jerso79d faaacts
DF was super soft on Forza in this comparison let's be honest lol
They could've really went in how poor the car models are, the total lack of detail, the borderline arcade physics in a racing sim, the horrendous progression system....the list just goes on and on
GT7 was so easily head and shoulders over Forza that DF was forced to declare them the winner. If it were anywhere near close they would've said it's a tie
The cap for GT7 is hilarious. Gran Turismo has not been good since 4. Yall are high as hell.
@adamjjohnsen yeah I agree. I mentioned in the initial videos comments about this. Pretty much every single aspect GT7 is superior. It embarrasses forza..but John was being ...diplomatic... to say the least 😂. My point is, they were talking about how they don't want these videos to be used to over criticise Forza, but Alex did exactly that - and rightly so. That ain't toxic. That's just a fair comparison. FM8 is a soulless downgraded lazy mess with a few nice post fx. Compare FM8 to Driveclub from 2015. It'd still get destroyed.
Forza motorsport was very hyped ,to a degree, it is false advertising and not what was sold
Can’t agree more. I love both series but FM was so disappointing. Felt like loads was missing.
@@zerocool5238can’t agree with that for the most part. The physics, graphics(at least compared to FM7), general racing, MP, and music, are better than the last Motorsport game
Citation required
Another game that was rushed by Xbox/MS. The 12 month window killed a lot of games from reaching the promise that was….promised 🤔
For context. I truly dislike Alex. Can DF replace him with someone, anyone else. Smug F***
Anyway, I own a XSX and love it but I don’t stand behind any multi billion/ trillion company who just takes my money and gives 0 f’s about me.
Xbox has a long way to go but at least Xbox/MS have a business model in place that can support the long or longer term unlike Sony’s current model. I think a lot of this was self inflicted and a lot was rushed but almost had to be. Xbox fell way behind, again, early generation and had to put out content as quickly as possible to gain some ground back. Looking forward to seeing what 24’ holds in store.
EVERYONE! The main problem was Cris Esaki and the hype marketing "Built From the Ground Up," slogan. The fake hyper real, ray tracing video trailers. If all Turn10 did was say, "FORZA IS BACK!" We wouldn't be nearly as pissed off about the steaming pile that was released!
Loved watching the comparison as I'm pretty new to the racing genre. Gran Turismo 7 really kicked it off for me; I had only ever played arcade racers in the past (NFS Underground, Midnight Club, NFS 2015) and anything verging on sim felt so daunting to play and understand. GT7 was super appealing with how it approaches car culture and actually teaching the ins and outs of basically everything about cars. I didn't think I'd ever be tuning cars in game but the first time I upgraded and tuned my dream Dodge Viper to improve its handling characteristics and actually win races... it blew my mind! Fell in love with GT7 right then and have been actively watching races and playing other racing games like F1/Dirt Rally since. Forza looks perfectly fine gameplay wise, if I had an Xbox I'd absolutely give it a go, but I am super thankful that PlayStation has a developer like Polyphony that's so dedicated to a vision they've actually impacted my life outside of the TV screen.
Any reason why hdr was off in the comparison? Because GT has the best implementation of hdr
Everytbing John said in his comparison video was spot on. Nearly 99% of people that watched it, could see he was hitting all the points dead on. It was obvious who the miniscule minority was in this matter. The fanboys - who are also the most toxic gamers (on both sides). They want their side to win and any criticism is immediately viewed as negativity or favoritism. Surprised we didn't see the "DF must have been paid by Sony" comments. The fact is, criticism when presented the way John did, only helps to push things forward. It was constructive, insightful and well thoughtout. The constant side by side comparisons did the rest. This is what we need more of, critical but smart criticisms to get better products. Because competition pushes devs to get better, so does constructive criticism. And it is nice that a reputable channel like Digital Foundry puts this much effort into these videos, like they do.
The DF is often accused by Ponies to be Microsoft Shills.
But Xbots feel the same way towards DF and Sony so they must be doing something right,right?😂
well no because DF always damage control for Xbox when they release a bad game. This video was another example of John pretending like it was a close competition between the games. Thats dishonest@@GameslordXY
99% of people who watched the video enjoyed it for what it was a fun deep dive comparison. There's always going to be that nasty 1% who just have to say terrible things about on or another for reasons I don't think I'll ever understand. But please don't let that 1% deter you from making these excellent, highly enjoyable videos! Keep up the great work guys! ❤
Yeah stupid people
Both are good games. I prefer GT7 by a large margin because once I played it in VR I couldn’t go back to flat. I wish Xbox had a headset so I could play Forza in VR too because unfortunately I don’t want anything to do with a PC so GT7 it is.
Yeah VR is a game changer for racing games.
Why do you have such an aversion to PC as a gaming platform?
@@coinsagE46m3 for a lot of people the initial cost (in today's market) is a huge obstacle, especially if you want a rig that can play VR games at a competent level.
@@coinsagE46m3 Not saying it’s bad. It’s just not for me. Did the PC thing for awhile but ended up more annoyed and frustrated than entertained.
@@74Spyderman I get that! Tough to beat a "set it and forget it box" that's easy to play on the couch, with guaranteed controller support with every game. I love my PC, but wish it was more seamless. Big picture is close, except when games have launchers or pre menu things(fallout/borderlands/batman Arkham). Consoles are also a sweet bang for your buck too. My PC is many times the cost of my current gen consoles.
Forza Motorsport was a huge downgrade compared to the previews. Build from the ground up...
They butchered the game !!!
It looks even worse vs Forza Horizon 5, which is a 2021 game. Who looked at this, and said: This is fine.
On point! I was expecting it to at LEAST look like FH5. But also pc requirements were higher than fh5 baffles me
It looks worse than forza 5! A game from 2013!
It's the Madden of racing franchises, what can you expect?
Original video is coming up as Private?
The comparison was absolutely amazing and perfect timing for me as I have been looking at getting GT7 and/or FM (which I know is on GP). Having watched the video, there was only game I have any interest in playing and that is GT7, which I haven't played since GT3. I really appreciated the detail of the coverage and I have zero issues with what was highlighted by John for either game.
I haven't watched the original video yet. Which game has the more realistic physics engine?
Depends. On clear/dry tracks I feel like stock cars feel better on forza. While actual race cars(especially high downforce cars)and wet weather racing is better on gt. Also gt has a few dirt tracks and a snow track. Played both of these on a controller just fyi.
I thought the video was really interesting. I guess I'm an Xbox player but I'm into DF because I love to hear about how technology is deployed and it's rare that we get to see two different developers approach the same source material. It highlights so much about how games are put together and the different choices that are made along the way. Thanks for making it!
This work by John was df at its ultimate best. People like chrom being salty about the outcome as it were are part of the problem
They’re just two games being compared in a deep and very professional manner. Pointing out the differences and comparing the two isn’t in any way being derogatory or insulting to anyone
People need to get a fucking grip. Totally agree with Alex’s opening gambit too.
Love your Work Guys and many others Too
So true about FM4, I decided to try it again, and I was impressed how a game from 2013 still looks so good.
Facts shouldn't be mistaken for opinions and it is a fact the GT is more detailed and close to realism in terms of models and elements on track. So giving appreciation and the due to someone who actually went a step further is better than being more diplomatic in our appreciation and giving out the participation award.
Just to add on to that, we should also keep in mind that preferences are not facts as well.
Sony shills
exactly. i got the feeling in his video, he tried to really be very diplomatic to the point it seems like he is almost a bit defensive of forza.
It was a great video. The people who are toxic are going to be toxic. The video was what I would hope to see from someone who loves games.
Why is video private ?
Forza looks like you're viewing the game (even while in 3rd person) through a, and i dont want to say dirty windshield but a not as clear if that makes sense. So it gives colors kinda of a washed out look whereas GT doesn't have that and you get better colors.
thing is, it doesn't even look that good in cockpit view
The comparison video was fun to watch. Going deep in several topics and highlighting the highs/lows took a lot of work. And that work pays off!
My personal conclusion was that GT7 went for a more accurate look. When FM went for a little bit more spectacular.
Regarding the landmarks, even the Narrator in Forza Motorsport mentions using "the hotel" as a visual cue. So they do understand the importance in this.
Yea tree placement is so important for breaking points, was sheer laziness on Turn10's point to chuck a load on random trees in
Considering gt 7 is a cross gen game and Forza is built from the ground that's end the talk just imagine if gt7 was built only for PS5 what the result will be and I think they went very soft on Forza gt7 is miles better to look at and feels more premium
10TB! Dang! Thanks for making the video. I haven't watched it yet but going to now that I know what you put into it. Keep up the great work guys love your content.
Thanks John for all you passion and effort you put into this project! It was very enjoyable to watch.
i was really looking forward to Forza Motorsport, but was pretty disappointed.
playing the Game pass version on a 12700k and rtx 3080 and it just doesn't look as good as it should IMO.
Also doesn't help that i kept getting this bug where the actual road would disappear.
Would love to see a car comparison of GT7 vs Motorsport vs Horizon 5.
I think the review was very fair as an owner of both
Forza Motorsport 2023 is simply another case of false advertising. The game clearly doesn’t look like it did in the trailer despite “in game footage”
As a GT fan I'm going to say this: boy I wish it had FM's performance RT gameplay mode. That's a really nice feature. (Although if there's one graphical feature I would LOVE to have in GT it would be RT shadows with accurate penumbra in photo mode. I accept it might not be fast enough for realtime but it would look so nice in renders.)
Your comparison was terrific, and the research into making it is appreciated by me. I play GT7 because I have a PS5, not an X-Box, and as has been suggested, the console/game wars is regrettable.
As a GT7 player I can appreciate the different approaches, and think Forza is a great game in its own right. There are some ways it is superior to GT7 (the online racing can be sensational fun from what I've seen), and fanbois of both camps are losing sight of the fact that the industry needs competition, lest we have just a couple of racing titles which dominate and become complacent.
Re gameplay, I was ultra excited when GT7 was announced, and even bought a PS5 to take advantage of the new features, but on release there was much consternation about the mess the game was in. Microtransactions, for one. I applaud the devs of Forza for releasing a product which will have teething problems, but end up being a worthy competitor (I think it is already ...) to GT7.
It was a super fair and balanced comparison. As a longtime FM fan, I was let down that they didn't knock it out of the park on release, but I'm still enjoying the game and I expect it will get a lot better before it rides off into the sunset. One of your main points is absolutely true: While playing, they both look great.
On the point at 7:37 about how drivers use trees as braking points in real life - this is completely true, and furthermore, drivers will use things as simple as certain bumps in the road for braking and turn in points. Sims used by real-world teams take extra care to make sure trees, bumps, and other seemingly unmeaningful geometry are completely accurate to assist driver preparation. You also saw a lot of drivers comment on how things were either present or missing from certain games and sims when everyone jumped into sim racing during COVID in 2020.
I also want to give a personal note - as someone lucky enough to work in motorsport and who has traveled to many of the tracks seen in the GT7/Forza video, I have to say that in my personal opinion GT7 just captures how the lighting looks and feels at the track better than Forza in general, but in the past I have found that some Forza tracks have done a striking job at capturing tracks - Sebring in Forza 6 especially come to mind. But especially in GT7, the feeling I get loading into some tracks is just uncanny - their approach to lighting and colors just feels absolutely spot on with how it feels to be at the track.
Great video. To me, FM looks like something is off in the lighting model. I forgive it for that, but the track count and direction of the game progression I don't....not for 6 years in development. FM4 is my favorite Forza title followed by a tie between FM6/FM7.
no hate to fm and its devs but its just that there's a lot of things that is missing and things that shouldn't be added like the car xp and car points for upgrade I just think that the carpg doesn't work that well for forza unless they just use in game credits rather than car points to buy upgrades
The video was a masterpiece, good job John! ❤
It was an astonishing amount of work. respect.
As someone who grew up with both series and loves GT7, I was honestly looking forward to FM. A next-gen racer to really keep GT on its toes. I'm still confused as to why the final product was so bleh. Great comparison John :)
I grew up with them as well tbh I think GT has always been that little step a head. A lot of it likely comes down to Polyphony Digital not having their fingers in so many pies being their core focus and putting the man power and time in for all the tlc better.
forza fanboys getting their feelings hurt
Love both series and forza finally caught up to GT a few releases ago, but GT seems to have caught up graphically. Both games still drive amazingly to me.
When I found your channel I loved to watch everyone break everything down. But there's definitely a subset of people who rob the enjoyment for me
Just don't read the comments if it takes away your enjoyment of the videos
@@JG-ib7xk that mostly works here but youtube algorithm seems to promote toxic videos
I feel as though in his efforts to try and be impartial, John inadvertently gave off the impression of being biased towards Forza and was too soft. A lot of parts I felt as thought GT7's advantages and Forza's disadvantages were being downplayed, and didn't really get that vibe for the vice versa.
I think the biggest crime of all is that HDR wasn't enabled. Like... why? He even admitted that GT7's HDR implementation is best in class and they obviously have set-ups that support HDR. Why weren't they enabled for both games...? The only reason I can think of is that they didn't want the comparison to be overly one-sided but if that's what it ends up being because it reflects reality then let it be what it will be.
That's not getting into the incredible disparity in car model detailing that wasn't really tackled deeply. Polyphony was incredibly obsessive with recreating these cars in the digital space and certain models in Forza just straight up look last-gen.
I think a Forza Motorsport 2023 vs FM7 video would be great. I feel like FM2023 took some very very clear steps backwards from FM7 and it’s disappointing to see. The one that stands out to me immediately and the most… the weather. FM7 weather felt more visceral, and FM2023 lacks puddles and hydroplaning. There is just a general uniform reduction in traction across the whole track in FM2023. GT7 and FM7 both handle wet tracks better, with GT7 simulating the drying along the driving line while off line remains wetter, and FM7 has the puddles which make certain parts of the track way more dangerous.
Great recap Digital Foundry!
Epic video John. You put the argument straight to bed.
Installed fm on pc and right at the tutorial the street was invisible, completely missing texture like you’re driving in space. Fastest refund ever
Forza has so much incredible potential, but will always play third fiddle to GT as long as it simply tries to be the XBox version of GT -- instead of pursuing its own unique vision of what a driving game can be (see Driveclub, Grid, F1, Assetto Corsa, and Motorstorm as examples of games that successfully do this). Try the following -- play GT5 in 3D (a stunning experience 12 years before VR in GT7 arrived) -- and see that even back in 2010, GT was attempting to push the envelope.
i think the "toxicity" we saw was not that one game is better than the other, its that Forza is not as good as it SHOULD be. As a GT "fanboy" i wanted Forza to be great, in order to properly give GT some competition. the fact that Forza constantly touted "built from the ground up" and at launch that it turned out to be a complete lie, is a massive disappointment. the fact they are re-using ANY assets in a game that supposedly was "built from the ground up" shows to me that the devs dont actually care all that much. again, im not saying these things to piss off forza fans, i just miss the days where GT and Forza would actually push each other to innovate and create good games.
To be completely fair, the only time where GT and Forza were matched, were during the PS3/Xbox 360 era
@zacariascisneros6399 true, it would be nice to back to that era. These games need to push each other in order for both player bases to get more out of them.
Love your videos, dont engage in the comment war because it will do more damage than good. Keep up the great work guys.
Hopefully Turn10 takes the criticism the right way and really puts some work in to make it better. The video is mostly objective and even the devs probably agree with everything you showed. If they don't try and turn it around then we all know what the real goals were with the game.
I’f you look at the FM original 2 cinematic teasers shown at showcases you might just think they falsely mis represented their game. 🙁 they still deserve credit for the rain graphics and night and day time cycles. 👍🏼
@ 4:01 I agree about fm and gt having different approach on the genre
That first question was pathetic. We pay for these games, we can decide what works for us and what doesn't.
I got into a debate with someone over the video and quickly realized they didn't even watch the whole thing or maybe none of it lol.
It's a fair video. Keep making these. These toxic ppl will weaponize whatever.
After being insulted by the roulette tickets of GT7, I really wanted Forza Motorsport to succeed.
Team Green had an opportunity to strike where Team Blue faltered; a first party simcade racing game. Alas it seems we can't have nice things.
Both series reached their peak with their 4th installments
Team Blue didn't falter though
@@MichaelM28 team blue went to the moon with the spec 2 update and psvr 2
@Unprotected1232: Some people have the worse luck with those tickets, my friend is one of them. I have won everything but the "Million-dollar stack of gold.😊
@@willierhone6244 I've won the million once and half million a handful
GT7 chase cam is abysmal
Only thing I dislike about gt7 is the predatory roulettes that suspiciously seem to always land on the worst reward and how 2 mil cost 20 dollars real life money. 2 mil is nothing in this game and some cars cost 20mil.
I'm a Forza Motorsport fan and I don't see the issue with the video. The game has far more problems than whether or not the graphics are better than GT7. I wish more media outlets would call out T10 for the mess of a game and not having the balls to face fans.
The graphics were way over hyped and definitely under delivered, it looks better than FM7 but not by anywhere near the amount you would expect after a 6 year gap and on a way more powerful console
That's so true. It looked incredible in the marketing material
Because of their failed focus on raytracing and volumetric clouds. It's too taxing on the system. They should instead have went the Forza Horizon 5 way.
@@vandammage1747 I do agree about a way too big focus on ray tracing, the Xbox and ps5 both have really poor RT capabilities
Get this: in GT7, I can set up a custom racing experience with custom time of day, and racing only one AI, AND I WILL GET PAID FOR IT. Forget graphics or physics, Forza totally fails on this front. In GT7, I just take any favorite car, stock usually but sometimes fixed up, I get to set up a 3-lap racing session say at sunrise, set time to very advanced, choose my weather, whatever, limit the race to me and one other, and I make $11,000 in 5 minutes, AND IT'S GORGEOUS while I do this. I do it again twice and go to the used car lot, and pick out a stock car I already have, and make a souped-up version of it. And so on. GT7 allows me to have this self-made narrative. Forget the graphics or the feel or the physics, Forza simply doesn't allow this, whereas with GT7, I can create my own narrative. That's what I see as the biggest differences between these. Older Forzas would would let me do this.
I thought the video was funny. I don't care which is best and I'm not into console wars, but, for some strange reason my Twitter timeline was full of Xbox fans boys like that sausage Colteastwood shouting about how much better Forza was, taking pics of Forza looking at its very best VS GT7 at it's very worst. Then your video came along and I could just envision all the anger and denial. Lol
Great talk, and great great comparison video!!!
I agree that the two developers are indeed "top tier". The difference is that one of them is very mismanaged.
As a simracer, who race exclusively on the PC, in SimRig, with DD Wheel and loadcell pedals, my two cents. I disagree that you can't enjoy iRacing. True, it has a steep learning curve, but once you get in your head vehicle dynamics, weight transfer, and understanding of the grip of the tires, you are good to go. And can then race in any hardcore sim racing title. Forza Motorsport is a disappointment because when you play it with the wheel, it has the same quirks and strange car (actually tire and suspension) behavior as the previous title. Also, force feedback you feel through the wheel is very strange, and behind GT. You can have a racing game, that is more on the sim side, but also plays well with the gamepad, and is also good on the wheel. This was promised, but not delivered. I don't want to get into GT vs. Forza, because the more racing games the better. But you can feel the physics engine is based upon previous Forza. We were promised new, from the ground up rewrite, and we clearly didn't get it. It's sad actually, considering YEARS of development. And since physics engine is so integral part of any racing game, we won't get any major improvements. We'll get DLCs, and better support for various wheels, but underlying car behavior is here to stay. This was a huge missed opportunity, IMO.
Oh, I would like to add the crucial part I forgot. The main thing with any game, sim racing title or not, the main point is, you CAN have fun. It's a good game. It just is not what we were expecting. You can still have enjoyable multiplayer races. You still drive in "real" cars on real tracks.
It was a well done video, good job. Fan boys only matter when you give them a voice
Ignore the butthurt forza trolls.
Not to mention FM progression is giving the player a taste of supercar right at the beginning.
From a standalone game progression, it's not a good things to give the player all the cars/weapons in any game.
Thanks for doing what you did. The polarization of the gaming community never ceases to amaze me.
I love both GT7 and Forza Horizon 5, with countless hours in both. So I was very excited to have another sim-cade racer with Motorsport. I even paid money for the first big car pack in Motorsport, even though I have it on gamepass. I was very disappointed with Forza, and dropped the game altogether. I’ve never played a racing game with more bugs and downgraded visuals than Motorsport. I think it’s important to hold developers accountable. Turn 10 has a lot of work to do, and I hope they turn the game around. I will check back in from time to time, but right now it feels like there is an issue at Microsoft and how they manage their teams. We’ve seen this story play out over and over again with almost every Microsoft first party game this generation, and it has nothing to do with fanboy-ism.
GT has always been more of a simulator than folk realise.
Also, GT franchise pushed the driving sim genre to improve..... inspirational.
Forza is just a desperate attempt to try and compete with GT
Always has been and always will be.
A 2nd video and still no reason explained, Why the graphic duel was made with GT7 using the top graphics mode and Forza Motorsport using the Performance+RT mode? The Forza mode used is like medium graphic mode with RT only on cars.
Great video and I agree with the criticism about both games. But the harsh reality has little to do with the actual developers and more about the decisions made by people who oversee the process. These games are designed for profit, but when the developers sell a game far shorter than the hype they generate they should be subjected to these criticisms. They want your money and when your loyal player base is at stake you should be doing right by them instead of selling them short.
One HUGE problem Forza always has is that the side of the car that is on the shadow side is way too dark.
was a great vid guys
I think this was a very tame and respectful video. It was very clear that 99% of polyphonys scanning is sooo much more accurate, cars and tracks. Considering GT7 was developed earlier, had to cater for ps4, the interiors had to be designed to work in VR where they look perfect.
The time they have had to develop Forza for current gen only, the level of detail is unacceptable.
I liked the video. Usually with any racing game whether its sim or arcade styled i end up watching it with a huge grin on my face.
It was a lot of fun to watch, i enjoyed watching the way both dev teams handled various aspects of the tracks, weather, cars... i do agree GT seems the better of the two based on the comparison you made, but of course i dont play either of these games. In fact i think Rocket League is the best game ever and both GT and Forza are for nerds. Come at me.
What was IGN playing or watching or smoking when they said recently that Forza is the better looking game? They gave the visuals in Gran Tourismo 7 a 4.5... too much realistic 🤔
It is the better looking game and IGN are right.
@@KhromTXlol
They said that?
@@KhromTXNo it isn't and no they're not xbot
@@KhromTXI'm guessing Destin made that video. That would explain a lot
18:14 who is this guy submitting the Q&A question? What an oddly apologist take for him to have on the subject. Forza Motorsport's been universally, heavily criticized on virtually all web spaces, and this has nothing to do with the DF video's "verdict." It doesn't take much investment into either of these titles to see which one spent the time to develop a full-fledged title that meets AAA standards in 2023. FM23 can be summarized like this: a proper update to the physics with a rudimentary inclusion of weather, and a half-baked RT system, muddied by an extensively recycled, stripped down, decontented, buggy, unstable, unoptomized, and uninspired package, all for the price of $70-100.
I am glad that you made this comparison, it also shows that you love forza and expect a lot more from the developers. They definitely under delivered badly, I expected a lot more from them and I HOPE they see your videos and rethink their whole formula because Gran turismo 7 is made with love for us car lovers. From the replays to the physics and so on and so forth. Forza does not appear to be made with the same passion.
19:20 Chrom, a person who mentioned 3 xbox owned games, mentioned how much they loved FM. We understand. But at the olympics there can only be one person to take gold. Doesn't mean the silver winner did not put in the work/effort.
I think we need to stop being "scared" to point out/accept when one game is factually better than another.
Enjoy FM, Chrom.
Having played both games, I'd say it was safe to assume that I enjoyed GT7 much more better.
To be honest, the Forza team should be criticized by fans because of what their team advertised the game was hyped to be. John did a good job with the comparison, especially if you played both games. Microsoft has a pattern of disappointing some fans with their first party games, from Halo, Forza, Starfield, etc. They just don't and won't get it for some gamers. They are fine with being who and what they are and gamers just need to accept it and buy the games and consoles they prefer.
The only really good game for Xbox this year was HI Fi Rush
@zacariascisneros6399 I'm sure you speak for all gamers what's a good game and what's not. Geesh, people grow up already. Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it's not good or great for many.
That’s some impressive eyebrow emoting happening there John. 🤨
The thing is hardcore Gt guys have openly admitted they like some aspects of Motorsport better. I have not played gt7, I have played Motorsport and it has some very good things going for it as gt7 seems to have as well. I plan to play gt7 when I get a chance to do so.
Regarding the toxicity surrounding the response to your video. That's not a fault of your video, It's just the tribal aspect of online culture and humanity in general. Your video was very well made and could actually help future development of FM titles if the dev team learn from it. In the short term it may be disheartening to the devs, but overall, in the long term... It's has the potential to be a big positive. ✌️
great! but you completely left out the sounds department