She wasn't a minion of Satan. I wish all the youtube channels would have at least googled Carla Gugino's interview where she spills the beans. Verna is a neutral entity outside of space and time. She's making a joke about ravens being minions of satan as a warning, because that's not the case in the Bible or folklore. According to Carla's interview she's neutral entity. Her goal isn't to lead people astray, but to see what choices they will make, because she can see all possible timelines.
I agree with this, she shows compassion and goodness at times and those aren't the usual characteristics of supposed demon spawn. Neutral makes sense, ppl really get what they wish for.
Yes! When she talks to the Usher kids she mentions these alternate timelines more than once such as when she tells Frederick it's ironic he would be a dentist in other timelines. She saw all their possible choices and probably knew they will make the ones bringing about their downfall.
It is exactly that kind of entity/force early bronze age Human world start organizing a religion around and eventually call satan. It is not a thing than can be understood easily, or at all by a human mind, and thus it is dressed up and simplified by stories giving the force/entity characteristics it really does not have. Perhaps, in this story, the biblical story about satan is simply the equivalent of a cautionary cargo cult of verna.
Verna is "The Morrigan" from Celtic mythology. She has an association with Fate, which is why she can see the future. And is associated with crows/ravens.
Doesn’t track for me. The Morrigan “Incites warriors to battle and can help bring about victory over their enemies. is often described as a trio of individuals, all sisters, called "the three Morrígna".
She's not the ONLY one 😆... She's an living metaphor. Lol there are others like Vera, Ishtar, Lilith ext lol but your NOT wrong but not right. I don't think there is the a right answer. Is she the devil? God? Death, demon, Angel? My answer to this is "Yes" lol😂
That's just headcanon on your part and doesn't really make much sense. Ravens are associated with a lot of mythology. I don't think she's any particular mythological entity and left purposefully ambiguous. The abstract personification of the consequence of pursuing greed. The raven association is to keep with the Poe theme of the series, not a reference to any particular mythology.
Verna was likely one of the immortal beings from the hollow side of the earth. Arthur Pym said that during the transglobe expedition, they found that the earth was hollow, and on the other side lived immortal beings that defied the laws of time and space. Verna even reminds him that he saw her standing on the ice. She also mentions that she came "topside" because she found human beings to be fascinating. She probably gives humans these deals out of curiosity to see what they will do with their wealth and power, and which path they will take. She seemed genuinely angry at Roderick for the path he chose and its consequences, so I like to believe that there are others in-universe who did good things with their fortune and like Lenore, she granted them peaceful deaths at the end.
I don't think she was evil or a demon. She granted Rodericks's wish, told him the price upfront, and made their deaths match their crimes, taking pity on Lenore and showing remorse. Morally she was a grey area, far better than almost all of the characters in the show.
She is definitely evil, whether a demoness or not. She is very hypocritical as she directly killed innocent people in the orgy party, revel in the millions of deaths & suffering from ligodone addiction, but then somehow having a "mercy" kill toward Lenore. I would argue it's a flimsy writing to gain some sorts of empathy towards such supernatural character. Just because someone granted you a wish, it doesn't mean they are not evil, especially since they have their own agenda to begin with.
@@crozravenI would have to disagree there. She definitely did have an agenda: bringing justice against a couple of evildoers, although there was a true, innocent victim in the form of Lenore in the end. Mads and Rod were definitely evil ppl already when they met Verna and they proved to be even worse than the Jester CEO and by how their kids all turned out...not one was a decent human being (notice that Lenore was 1 gen away from those 2 for there to be a chance not to turn out evil like her father and uncles/aunts). As for the acid rave, Phospero(sp?) wanted the 'cream of the crop' so they were all connected/similar to his background and some even had felonies, so not exactly good ppl either. The wait staff were pretty much innocent and hence got spared. She never 'revelled' in the mess the drug caused, she was always using that against Rod.
@@paulsimonmccarthy9209She's evil *to evil ppl*. Otherwise, why would she care/show emotion about killing Lenore? If she's so evil, she wouldn't care about her or the wait staff. To say absolutes is not seeing the whole picture.
I cried too. I was wondering if it was coming after she said the bloodline had to die, but she was such a sweet character. I didn’t know if they would go as far as to kill her. I should have known though since the Raven poem is about his lost Lenore
She is a neutral entity. Episode 6 gives the most insight into what she truly is. In her conversation with Arthur she says she ‘had to come up top’ to see the people who circumnavigated the globe. Arthur also talks about Ultima Thule, a ‘hollow Earth’ or a realm outside of time and space. Verna constantly insists when they talk, she is outside of time and space, hence why she sees all realities, all time timelines. She is from this realm outside of our own, a fourth dimensional being. She sees all versions of Madeline side by side and it breaks her heart. Satan is a myth. She is real, and all those that reside in Ultima Thule are real. She is not evil, she feeds on possibilities, eating those worlds that would never be because of the deals she makes. She is from another world, an eldritch terror who feeds on the choices of humanity, and in the end cares about the survival of humanity. All that she takes is given back in abundance, hence the Phoenix foundation, Juno and Morelles endeavours to repair what fortunato had ‘tatooed’ on the world. Verna is ‘not a woman’ as she says herself, not even human. They tell us what she is, and where she’s from, and Pym accepts it so quickly because he has seen where she is from, hence why he’ll never speak of it.
She brought Usher back to life after he suicides and could count people affected by the good and bad deeds of the characters, which implies that she has almost omnipotent powers. She also seems to be older than humanity itself. She refers to the people she cut deals as clients. I believe she is sort of a manifestation of destiny.
Actually I thought that Verna's character is inspired by the Celtic Goddess of Death, Fate War amd Nature the Morrigan or she is just the manifestation of Karma (consequences one faces per one's actions).
i don’t know if anyone commented on this bit, but i thought the fact that she warned morelle before the chemical rain in the club was very telling that verna is a fair character, she seems to be all about morals, justice and balance
@@cartelmusicc9565 yes. she tested the moral compass of each of the siblings, and she even tested roderick and madeline at the bar by making them the offer in the first place, they failed by taking it. this is why she respected pym more. justice can be the same as balance here, she made sure they got what they deserved based on the moral test
Verna transcends space and time it is implied. She knows all past and all possible futures arising from different choices the person makes. She mentions that Frederick would have been a dentist in another life.
Its wild to me that in discussions around Verna I don't see people bringing up Pym's story about there being a race of people beyond time that live in the center of the earth. Especially when Verna tells Pym she knows he saw her during the expedition - and that she had to go "topside" I really think the devil/demon doesn't make much sense. For a show about death there is surprisingly little to do with religion (christianity even less). Verna doesn't seem like an evil entity trying to trick people into giving their souls. But a being that exists outside of our perception of time and reality - and can manipulate it. That sees humans as curious things - taking interest in some and making deals to shift things to their favor - but at a cost, and comes back to judge them after. All in all I think for the usher's it is still basically a "deal with the devil" in a conceptual manner. But I really think she is more otherworldly than biblical
I was thinking the same exact thing. I don't think she is an agent of hell but an agent of the universe. I think verna was a cosmic being that was able to pop back and forth from reality and do what she does best. I really enjoyed seeing her in action. I mean I guess you can say she was like the grim.reaper but I think it's too on the nose. I choose to believe she is a cosmic being with great power
@@nancytorpey3570 Hmm, haven't come across it. It's certainly something Flanagan might do - as the Hill house kids are he stages of grief - pretty sure he confirmed that one. However I am not immediately convinced on this one, as they don't each align to one very easily in my mind. Rather most suns I could assign to most of the kids. Greed, lust, envy. Most could be given that. While ones like wrath and sloth are more tenuous. I think it is certainly a valid reading - but may not be the authorial intent.
Her character was more like the Angel of Free Will. She wasn't the devil or one of his minions. She valued integrity and virtue. It's better the second time you watch it, you catch more of the excellent dialogue. This is an instant classic. We need the fall of the House of Rockefeller Medicine, the real House of (P)usher.
This is the first comment I’ve seen that perfectly states what I’ve been thinking. Verna is free will. Our choices always have results, for better or worse. She represents that entire set of natural laws.
@@Durpydurp4488 I'd say she is the personification of the consequences of the choices we make, due to free will. Particularly the consequences our choices have on others, not necessarily ourselves.
Free will should apply to each human soul, my dad or grandfather making a deal should not affect my free will so no she cant be an angel.. In biblical scripture we all determine our souls fate.. in this Case Roderick determined his families and his granddaughters fate. Lenore was a child and innocent and made no deal but still killed well before her time just because a deal her grandfather made.. Free will is for each human to determine for themselves.. this was not the case in this story.
I like how she realized that Lenore was the only good soul in the Usher family and she took her out quickly without any pain and even gave her reassurance that her mother would recover and change the world
Something about her monologue as the chimp brought tears to my eyes (I tear up when other people would get chills). When she opened her shirt and started to cry out in pain I could _feel_ it. It was awful and incredible
Verna didn’t say ravens were viewed as minions of Satan, that was Roderick. Verna said that they were believed in a lot of different cultures to bring good fortune.
Verna was incredibly empathetic. She had a moral compass and used truth and knowledge to justify not only her kills but her method. She was unafraid to feel the suffering of others. I wouldn't say she was evil.
I’m fairly certain the morrigan was a major inspiration for verna. Ravens are symbols of the morrigan who influences death (both the method and measure) as well as peoples fortunes and it often associated with having three faces or phases. And she alludes to this with Madeline. Referring to her past present and future, a parallel to the maiden mother and crone symbology found with the morrigan (and hekate) Lastly Edgar Allen Poe (who wrote the fall of the house of usher) was of Scottish descent and took an interest in Celtic mythology as a young man. The morrigan is a Celtic deity
One thing that really got me about the Ushers deal with Verna…the current generations have basically made this deal as well…maybe not with some all powerful entity but….we use and use our planets resources for comfort and convenience….and the next generations will “foot the bill”…that’s why I kind of like the “Mother Nature” theory for Verna
I loved the series. It seemed to me that Verna allowed everyone to make their own choices, and unfortunately everyone made a bad/wrong choice and they paid dearly for it, with the exception of Lenore. The brother and sister were allowed to see the destruction they had wrought because of their insatiable greed.
I saw Verna as a Karmic Angel of Death -- an angel from Providence, not fallen. All characters had a choice (free will) when tempted in thier choices -- Verna merely outlined the details of the choice and the price consequences charge. For example, Artur Pym was given a choice with consequences outlined, and he choose his own fate, knowing it meant prison. Verna respected that.
Great analysis but one question would that make her immortal knowing that she gave them that choice and knowing they would choose that way? Or could she have lead them down a better path of redemption? Sometimes people make a deal with the devil and regret the consequences of their desicion, nor did they understand the gravity of their decision at the time of making it, so one would argue she dangled herion to a herion addict.
@@abbiealverez2960I see what you're getting at but Verna tried to warn/bribe all of the usher kids except Napoleon about how their deaths would come. How they all died were solely based on their actions and Verna killed them just so, I don't think it was in your words "dangling heroin to a heroin addict" more so a trying to convince and addict of getting clean but them continuing to do drugs anyway.
Unfortunately for your theory, she's not from any Judeo-Christian tradition. She's a being outside of space, time, and religion. She even denies the existence of a soul in the series.
Verna or the "raven" was not the devil. She was karma. If you read the book and watch the show carefully, she does give them a chance to make a different CHOICE (e.g. Perry).
I don’t see Verna as evil at all… As Verna said, the meaning of a Raven all depends on your philosophy. To Roderick, because his mother put it in his head they were bad omens they are bad. Yet to others they are signs of change and good fortune. But it’s all down to what you do with yourself. And Roderick and Madeline chose a path of destruction. That was not Verna influencing them to do that.
She reminds me of The Raven Queen from D&D lore. But Verna seems like a combination of Nephthys, egyptian goddess of the Dead; Baba Yaga, Slavic Crow trickster goddess who would grant blessings to those who prove themselves; and Dhumavati, Hindu crow goddess of death and the void between where time ends and begins.
Leave it to Mr. Pym to be the only corrupt person on the show who refuses the temptation to save his ass in exchange for his soul. He's already done it once.
Verna is not Satan or even a demon. When she gives the statement that humans have no souls that clearly implies not Satan as it requires humans to have souls. Also she feels good at the positive things Lenore did and the help to humanity her mother is going to bring. There are other examples. So no Verna is not Satan or even a demon. She is a more of a God or entity not affiliated with Christianity more of a Karma/Fate or some other God not related to Christianity but more of an ancient deity. Maybe even an Egyptian God or Greek God. Even in the Eastern God…neither good or bad.
I see Verna as a foreshadowing of death. With that said she does kind of warn some of the kids, she allows them to bring the things that happen to them on themselves. I loved this series so much. To me it is about how far will you actually go to get what you want & how power can change people, When Roderick decided to take the deal he had 2 kids already and knew he was playing God with their lives, that just shows what kind of man he was. One of my favorite moments besides Lorne's & Verna's exchange was when she asked Arthur Plym what are your assets? Not what you have, own,etc. what you bring of value as a person. I think this shows that Verna is compassionate & moral, and knows money does not bring you happiness. and she has to carry out the deal that was made.
@@missnna1999pure evil doesn't show compassion. She is more than likely Death herself. A version of the Grim Reaper that has the ability to make pacts.
She was brilliant but my favorite character was author the lawyer..I wish we saw more of his story..because seeing her on the ice was a nice eerie foreshadowing
I am aware that this show is meant to be art, and therefore can be taken in many different ways. I would like to believe that Flannigan tries his best to make this show in that way on purpose. Sure, there are definites, like Verna being an anagram for raven and stuff, but as for what I think she is, I truly believe that she was/is an agent of hell and possibly Lucifer himself. I feel that people like to put things into little boxes and label them accordingly, and that is actually great usually as humanity wouldn't have gotten far without the ability to adapt in ways like this. But I feel that most people when hearing the name lucifer, Satan, the devil, etc associate it with complete darkness and evil. And yes, it is pretty much true right? The devil is bad, the negative to the heaven's positive. But I kept remembering one of my favorite quotes from the crucible while watching this show. It's the classic one from Reverend Hale. "Until an hour before the Devil fell, God thought him beautiful in Heaven." Lucifer was, unquestionably, the highest held in God's favor, the most beautiful, the one that showed the very most potential. If that is so, then old Luci must have shown a lot of emotions, actions, and traits that God wanted to encourage. Traits like intelligence, resourcefulness, and yes even empathy. Much like we see in toxic relationships or from narcissistic individuals, a person can emulate kindness, can make you truly BELIEVE they have goodness in them, despite it actually being used as a tool for manipulation. The question in my mind is, how can any man alive or dead in our entire history, say for certain that they know who the devil truly is or how they might act? That is something to me, that only God would know. If Lucifer is known to be 'tricky, cunning, deceitful" then they cannot simply just be labelled bad and only be bad. It would make sense then, that the devil has to be more complex than just being/acting evil all the time. Truly the devil wouldn't get very far if they were obviously evil and wanting to make a deal. Trickery and snake oil selling requires charisma and a talent for building trust. Verna states that they are not a woman when a character refers to them as such but chooses the form of a woman. Why? Well, maybe because Satan is the embodiment of sin and betrayal, and it was an innocent woman (Eve) that it was able to trick into the original of sins. For the devil, it would be like mockery, it would be like a secret joke, that only those who are timeless would get the punchline to. Verna takes a lot more than they give, and when they give it is solely out of their own selfish motivation. They are able to bring back Roderick, yes, but only because they want him to die at exactly the time and precisely the way that they wanted, as stated in so many words by Verna themself. And technically, they did not give Roderick 'life', they merely forced him to vomit up the contents he had taken and reversed a very recent process of unconsciousness. Something I suppose, akin to a stomach pump and a wave of smelling salts could do. It LOOKS powerful, until you understand what is happening. I'd imagine our medicine and technology today might look like Godhood to those far in the past. So technically, I don't think Verna was 'giving' Roderick anything, not even more time, they just wanted to remain on control. If you think about it, about 90% of this show, Verna is taking 'what they are owed". In fact, the entire premise to this show, is about taking and coveting. The Usher family, Verna, etc all covet and take whatever and whenever they want. Perhaps Verna acted like they wished it could have been another way, perhaps they seemed sorrowful at certain points. But for someone that was just doing their job or making sure the deal was settled, they sure looked like they were enjoying themselves and relishing in the torment at certain crucial points. And I believe that in those moments, the veil slipped, and Verna (Lucifer) was showing their true feelings. Verna spent a lot of time preaching about the awfulness of humanity and all the things we do that are ignorant, evil, or just plain absurd. And the thing is, despite what Verna was and what they were doing during the show, they could not have been more right. How far we have fell as a species, when one year of sacrifice could ensure that the world would never know suffering again, and yet...we still put currency in things only for ourselves or immediate gratification. Remember too, that Lucifer could not fathom God's love for humanity. He saw them as flawed, stupid, ugly beings and above all else, envied them so much that it caused his eventual downfall. Those speeches seem to make a little more sense to me, when I observe them form the point of view of someone who is talking face to face with the creation he has absolutely resented and detested since the dawn of time. Well, what about Lenore? Verna looked like they were sorrowful about taking that life. Well, I have a few theories about that, but mostly I came to the realization that the original deal that Madeline and Roderick had made all those years ago with Verna, was that they and all of their children, would die at the same time. The deal didn't say anything about which souls would go to heaven or hell, and of course the devil being the devil, most likely wouldn't have wanted to get hung up on those details while in the midst of a deal heavily in their favor I would imagine. I believe that with each of the Usher's children's deaths, they took pleasure and relished in it because each one of them were theirs to toy with and had evil tendencies and an ugliness that meant most certainly their souls were theirs for an eternity. But 'sweet' Lenore, could never belong to Verna. She had no ugliness, and no evil in her heart. And so, the deal was paid in full, that Lenore had to die with her family, but her soul was not Vernas to take or toy with. Something that can be viewed very obviously when looking at all of the dead family members side by side, Lenore looks 'untouched", she is not mangled. She is dead, yes, but she is not quite as gruesome looking when compared to her other family members. We see this same behavior when Verna is denied by Arthur Pym and Auguste Dupin. Verna tries to strike a deal with Pym but is respectfully declined after pitching the deal to him. And Verna then immediately, within the same breath as his last word, disappears. Only then to next be seen watching on with an almost sorrowful gaze, as Arthur is arrested and heading to jail. Why sorrowful? Because each soul the devil wins over, is like an arrow into the heart of their enemy (God). What you see as genuine sorrow, is just selfishness tucked under the surface, imho. Now with Auguste Dupin, if you notice, she never approaches him. Not only because he isn't part of the deal, but because perhaps, Verna (Satan) knows there is no point, he is "the richest man in all the world" because at the end of the story he has found happiness in letting go of his lifelong quest and is able to enjoy his family and life. He is a good man, genuinely good in his heart, and is therefore a waste of Verna's time. I could go on and on, but I've already wrote a novel here. I'm not saying this theory of mine is 100% right or anyone else's is wrong. I'm just throwing this out there to show just how complex Verna's character was and just how great of a job the actress and Flannigan did when creating this show. Truly well done!
Poe did not write about the devil as a character or engaging in Faustian pacts (except in the lesser story "Never Bet the Devil Your Head"). Verna is most closely described as a psychopomp, an entity who leads souls of the recently deceased to the world below (note in one episode she said that she had to go 'topside'). Cheapneasy is correct in that Verna is similar to the Irish triplicate-goddess Morrigan, who appeared as a raven and brought about death, particularly in battle.
Verna can also examine different dimensions, timelines, or possible futures. She mentions that the guy who dies in the abandoned building he was a good dentist in another life.
I think she is The Morrigan, because of seeing the possibilities of different futures had the family members chosen different. Also tracks with the raven, shape-shifting, and association with death.
In Indian mythology, the raven is associated with the deity ,Shani or Saturn. Saturn is known as a really taxing deity, associated with Karma,in Hinduism. Too dark in his ways to be even worshipped and known for testing human beings in all sorts of ways, and punishes people during their lifetime for misdeeds. Verna seems to be a similar kind of force. She cannot be a demon because she said she found no joy in taking away Leonore 's soul. Similarly, she appreciated that Arthur Pym refused her offer for any kind of leverage, realizing he was already old and no one to live for. She mentions to Madeline that Roderick would have been a great poet if he had refused the deal and had not been so driven by ambition.
I wonder why she promoted choice to the kids, when ultimately they would all die. I'm guessing, if they chose differently, their death would be less fatal?
Maybe Verna is a being from the other side of where Pym said there was an island near antartica? Rodrick was explaining (a story Pym told to one of the kids) to Dupin.
I thought she was Death and that the raven was a symbol just showing that someone was going to die. However I really enjoyed your commentary, almost as much as I enjoyed the Mini-series. I binge-watched that in the space of 2 days, only because I had some things to do. I could’ve watched it in one day! LOL. Signed Gary’s fam mem T
I think Carla's depiction of Verna makes her somewhat terrifying, in that she's playing an entity capable of terrible things, but she can appear so loving, kind, and empathetic. It's scarier than, say, a demon who only threatens you and appears monstrous, because she can make you believe she's not all bad, and can seem so genuine.
Alot of people are saying that shes a goddess of sort(Mainly Morrigan) or some evil minion of satan but I think she's just a deity that Mike Flannagan made up for the show that heavily inspired from other deities. But she's definitely some sort of being that came from the underworld because of a dialogue that she had with Arthur Pym saying that she wanted to go 'topside'. And there isnt really a Raven God or Goddess that we know of and they normally play as a symbolism like messengers or omen but apart from Odin's Ravens, alot of mythos uses crows as a representation of themselves and not raven.
There's a few: Apollo, Athena, Macha, Morrigan, and Badh (Irish crow goddesses associated with crows and ravens), just to name a small handful. So to say that there are none that we know of is baseless.
@@lunesterv5802 What I mean is that there isnt a deity that we know of that fully uses a Raven as a representation of themselves, think like Egyptian Deities like Horus; Falcon, Bastet; Cat, or Greek like Hecate; Her hounds, etc. Ravens are used as messengers with Apollo and Athena but the stories that both had depicted Crows (Coronis) and in the end, the whole entire Corvidae family is thrown in into the story which is why alot of modern day retelling mixes up the 2 when Crows were the OG. So yes with Morrigan and her sisters, they use both or even the family of Corvids but their original mythos were initially crows. Alot of mythos uses Crows as a representation of something while Ravens are normally just messengers or companions. Maybe im just reading too much into it but you dont associate Aphrodite's Doves with Pigeons even though they belong in the same family for an example.
VERNA IS Nephthys. Here's the reasons 1) Nephthys, or “Mistress of the House,” was the goddess of the air (since the sky is the “head” of the world) and the head of the family. Nephthys is the Greek form of Nebt-het or Nebhet, meaning “lady of the house.” 2) when making the original deal she notes in the old days they would have used papyrus (amongst other things). This was commonly used by ancient egyptians. 3)Also, the Raven showing up everywhere is a huge giveaway. The raven's role as a guardian of the deceased is a recurrent theme in ancient Egyptian mythology. Nephthys, the goddess of the dead and overseer of funerary rites, is often depicted with the crow or raven as one of her symbols. The bar with a raven on it was no coincidence. 4)Nephthys is a goddess who gives the pharaoh power to see "that which is hidden by moonlight". This is possibly an allegory for future events , as to most thr future is unknown and hidden in darkness. 5) This goddess has been described as having negative and positive traits. It's obvious in the show that sometimes she tries to give people a kindess when she can, but can be angered when witnessesing acts of cruelty. 6) she mentions to Pym that she came up from below to watch him on the expedition he was on. This couls be a reference to her dwelling in the duat (egyptian land of the dead). 7) Edgar Allen Poe has at least one story about Ancoent Egypty (its a conversation with a mummy), and the Adevnturrs of Arthur Gordan Pym talks about How some pf their discoverys had Egyptian Hieroglyphs on them. 8) Nephthys was able to raise the dead. Which is most likely what she did with the Ushers mother and latter Madelyn Usher. Why the focus on Egyptian burial rites and Verna refering to Madeline as Cleopatra (there's the obvious 'female ruler' angle. But Isis was cleopatras patron diety and Nephthys is the sister twin of Isis, she would have known Cleopatra personally. Cleopatra also had tons of wealth and power but met a tragic end). Additionally, Nepthys was able to grant protections to the dead and possibly living. I dont think the Egyptian and Raven References were just throw aways. Verna makes egyptian references several times. Cheers
@BrainPilot Also something to note: Every Usher individual died doing something she suggested (or obviously gave them a choice) on what they shouldn`t do, they all ignored her & had a gruesome death. If you think about it, she gave them all a chance to change the kind of people they were & if they`d listened then they would`ve died differently
It was also said that ravens are a omen of good in some cultures so why are youtubers saying verna is a Linked to satan she was never cruel only gave the deaths they deserved since most of the usher kids dident listen to her warning to me it showed verna isnt a demon but some being of death and observer of life since she could see the lives they would have if they chose a difrent path
She's not a demon, although it's understandable if you think that (there's even one scene where she's mentions she went "topside", which could be implied she came up from Hell). She's more of a deity of sorts. She can be kind, she has a moral code and she does what she does for the main reason why gods do anything with mortals; because it's amusing to them.
I see her as a being like Nanno from Girl From Nowhere, which is also an excellent series on Netflix. Nanno is the personification of karma and vengeful justice, while Verna is more of an entity that embodies Fate and Fortune.
If Verna was in league with Satan, she wouldn’t be so angry and sad about having to take Lenore’s life. She warned Roderick that anyone in his bloodline would pay the price, she warned him. And yet he didn’t warn his children what was ahead. And clearly for Verna, good deeds in her eyes earn a peaceful trip to the other side at no cost, bad deeds will be paid for in full in awful ways.
She was neither angry nor sad though. She was indifference & did not enjoy killing a pure hearted girl like Lenore. It could be argued, she would be way more happy if she kill a corrupted Lenore, like if Lenore is a bully or gold digger or whatever evil teen stereotypical nowadays.
They never really get into Verna's background, other than she had been around since the dawn of Civilization. On one hand she is portrayed as sort of good, giving the Usher children the fates they deserve, but also attempted to show some of them mercy and giving them a last-minute chance to find peace. Yet on the other hand, she IS the one responsible for giving them the power to do all the evil they did in life with no consequences. So, in reality, she was as much responsible, if not more so, for all the evil they did as they themselves were. So, I certainly wouldn't say she was "good", I would say she was more likely an "evil" entity, but one with at least a touch of morality.
Having just re-read Poe's short story, I find there is barely a seed of a story in this excellent modern series. Yes, the name Usher has been retained and a crumbling "house" or family. That seems to be where the similarity between Poe's narrative and the current interpretation ends.
She is a Yakshini, or Karna Pishachini in Tantra- Female beings of different lower/higher realms than us and the Goddess. Often influencial people do their "Sadhana" to gain power/money/fame but with a great sacrifice in return. People often invoke them for their greedy purposes
I see who she is clean as day. She is "The Morrigan". The raven of Irish myth and she is definitely NOT evil or a demon. The Morrigan is the shape changing goddess of magic, death and justice. Her 3 Earthly aspects are Macha, Morrigu and Badb. People mistake death as an ending. It's not, it's a balancing act just like justice. Yes, Roddy and Maddy's body count was high but that means their fall hit so much harder. They had the opportunity to change the world but Roddy was a fraud (in his confession) and the world suffered for it. Every Usher made their own beds and got what they deserved in the end. With the exception of Lenore. She was completely innocent but the balance of her death was explained perfectly by Verna. That's why the ending had an optimistic tone. Auggie inherited the Earth while Pym rots in jail. This is making way for real change, lasting change. Just like Verna, The Morrigan loves symmetry (AKA balance, justice). I loved this show because it captures Irish pagan myth & spirituality sooooo well. This could be the same universe as American Gods. She has NOTHING to do with anything in Christian mythology. You have to think outside of that.
Verna is not a minion of satan. She offers choices with clear consequences, she’s not malicious and the scene where she takes the life of Lenore perfectly illustrates this. There’s a lot Egyptian imagery and metaphor throughout this series so I’m more inclined to believe she’s some variation of Nephthys, mother of Anubis or an amalgamation of various myths that include Nephthys although Carla describes the character as a neutral entity.
Meaning, their deaths didn't have to be so gruesome. But they couldn't change or stop who they truly were, that's why their deaths were brutal. All but Lenores, because she was pure.
While even actors interpret parts their own way, this part, to me, was the classic crossroads entity or trickster deal maker. Every culture has it in different forms, names and settings with most sharing similar traits. The most obvious examples would be Exu the primordial energy and Eleggua but there are plenty of other examples. And they are usually neither good nor bad, they just are, they offer, and its usually the actions Taken by the accepting party that abuse and misuse often braking or trying to get out of deals that leads to the negative aspects of said entities to manifest and correct situations previously agreed upon. In short, careful what you wish for, you might get it.
I was hoping that Verna would have the heart to let Lenore live because I felt like Verna had a kind heart somewhere deep down inside. That was a very sad moment and when I found out that Annabell Lee also committed suicide. 😢😢😢
Yeah, Lenore had the most peaceful death but it was hardest one to accept. I kept hoping that she was adopted and technically not part of the bloodline or that Roderick would find a loophole to somehow save her as an act of redemption.
i'd like to think she's a similar being to that of dream from the sandman series where she's not a demon like Mazikeen or an Angel like Lucifer but somewhere in between and that she's the very embodiment of the concept of Karma.
Thanks for breaking this masterpiece down into tidbits that ANYONE WHO NEVER READ POE'S WORK into a Cliff Notes version for people that won't ever read the Cliff Notes. Way to be 180 degrees off on all of it.
I think this is close, but personally, I believe Verna is an incarnation of Azriel the angel of death. I think she was always going to collect their souls at some point and I think she even stated that Roderick and Madeline were not going to live any longer or shorter as a result of their deal. I think she was testing their moral fiber, and allowing them to essentially choose the method of their own death. They could’ve had a quiet, peaceful one like with Lenore, but instead, they chose greed and build their empire on the bodies of others. So Verna came to collect an appropriate death.
On a deeper scale this show is kinda all about multiverses,, or the Schrødingers cat paradox. Kinda cool, but i wish they would have showed Roderick and Madaline possible paralell storylines - so they would have got to see what their bad chooses brought them, and what good life's they missed because of greed.. All in all another greate show from Mike Flanagan, though i liked midnight mass a little better. But i love all the actors, and i hope he gets them on the show also!
Verna is cool and all and I want to know more about her but is anyone else down for watching Netflix do a dark series about Pym's expedition? I know I would.
I don’t think that Verna is death as some have speculated. In the mythologies of death personified that I’ve seen/ read, Death tends to be impartial not seeking to gather more lives through deals but definitely pursuing them when they “cheat death.”
It is also likely that verna is from the center of the earth, as it is stated in the north pole pim found the earth was hollow, and that verna "went topside" to see pim at the north pole.
She was literally Lucifer. The deal. The power of illusion. Telling you not to do something, while dangling it right in front of you. The list goes on n on lol .
Exactly ppl are lost...the serpent said to Eve you shall not die and death has never left due to sin....the siblings sold their soul for the love of money, power etc
The Raven in the poem isn’t supernatural. Ravens can talk (like parrots) and the bird learned the words never more because the narrator kept repeating them.
She is NOT a minion of Satan. She is a neutral entity. if all the Usher kids weren't such shitheads (bar Lenore), she'd have let them die peacefully. That's merciful. A minion of Satan wouldn't show that sort of mercy
House of Usher villain - Verna Stranger Things villain - Vecna Czech Republic's entry in the last Eurovision - Vesna I'm starting to see a pattern here...
![⭐ฮิตในTikTok!! ( หมูเด้ง MooDeng ) Ver. แดนซ์โจ๊ะๆ ReMix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3krsyfWUeHU/mqdefault.jpg)
Who and most importantly WHAT do you think Verna is? Comment your thoughts below!
See below.
at first I thought she was a ghost, but later on, the devil's soldier
I agree, God's soldiers are angels and the Devil's soldiers are demons. Verna definitely is a demon.
I don't think she's an agent of Satan. More of a natural entity.
She is Death.
She wasn't a minion of Satan. I wish all the youtube channels would have at least googled Carla Gugino's interview where she spills the beans. Verna is a neutral entity outside of space and time. She's making a joke about ravens being minions of satan as a warning, because that's not the case in the Bible or folklore. According to Carla's interview she's neutral entity. Her goal isn't to lead people astray, but to see what choices they will make, because she can see all possible timelines.
I agree with this, she shows compassion and goodness at times and those aren't the usual characteristics of supposed demon spawn. Neutral makes sense, ppl really get what they wish for.
I feel like she is the embodiment of karma. You reap what you sow into this world.
Yes! When she talks to the Usher kids she mentions these alternate timelines more than once such as when she tells Frederick it's ironic he would be a dentist in other timelines. She saw all their possible choices and probably knew they will make the ones bringing about their downfall.
It is exactly that kind of entity/force early bronze age Human world start organizing a religion around and eventually call satan. It is not a thing than can be understood easily, or at all by a human mind, and thus it is dressed up and simplified by stories giving the force/entity characteristics it really does not have. Perhaps, in this story, the biblical story about satan is simply the equivalent of a cautionary cargo cult of verna.
@@UmbraKrameri she also warns a lot of the ushers before their deaths, so they can have more peaceful/quiet deaths.
Carla Gugino did a great job portraying a character that was deadly but not cruel!
Totally agree with you there!
She's such a deep and stunning addition in everything she's in 💜
I fully fully agree! She was excellent in her role here!
She's brilliant
She did a phenomenal job 👏🏾
Verna is "The Morrigan" from Celtic mythology. She has an association with Fate, which is why she can see the future. And is associated with crows/ravens.
Doesn’t track for me. The Morrigan “Incites warriors to battle and can help bring about victory over their enemies. is often described as a trio of individuals, all sisters, called "the three Morrígna".
@@sltorras what?
@@UC4AQUgrQ9EwVIGoF0w7xHXg She does none of that.
She's not the ONLY one 😆... She's an living metaphor. Lol there are others like Vera, Ishtar, Lilith ext lol but your NOT wrong but not right. I don't think there is the a right answer. Is she the devil? God? Death, demon, Angel? My answer to this is "Yes" lol😂
That's just headcanon on your part and doesn't really make much sense. Ravens are associated with a lot of mythology. I don't think she's any particular mythological entity and left purposefully ambiguous. The abstract personification of the consequence of pursuing greed. The raven association is to keep with the Poe theme of the series, not a reference to any particular mythology.
Verna was likely one of the immortal beings from the hollow side of the earth. Arthur Pym said that during the transglobe expedition, they found that the earth was hollow, and on the other side lived immortal beings that defied the laws of time and space. Verna even reminds him that he saw her standing on the ice. She also mentions that she came "topside" because she found human beings to be fascinating.
She probably gives humans these deals out of curiosity to see what they will do with their wealth and power, and which path they will take.
She seemed genuinely angry at Roderick for the path he chose and its consequences, so I like to believe that there are others in-universe who did good things with their fortune and like Lenore, she granted them peaceful deaths at the end.
Like some kind of shinigami.
Yes. That is what she was. Clearly.
🙄
Mind you, she always makes it a point to remind Roderick of the lives he has taken away due to his company and greed.
Thr biggest issue with your theory, is that Verna showed up in photos taken decades prior to the expedition
I don't think she was evil or a demon. She granted Rodericks's wish, told him the price upfront, and made their deaths match their crimes, taking pity on Lenore and showing remorse. Morally she was a grey area, far better than almost all of the characters in the show.
Agreed, you get what you wish for.
She even gave Pym a clear description of what his paths led.
She is definitely evil, whether a demoness or not. She is very hypocritical as she directly killed innocent people in the orgy party, revel in the millions of deaths & suffering from ligodone addiction, but then somehow having a "mercy" kill toward Lenore. I would argue it's a flimsy writing to gain some sorts of empathy towards such supernatural character. Just because someone granted you a wish, it doesn't mean they are not evil, especially since they have their own agenda to begin with.
@@crozravenI would have to disagree there. She definitely did have an agenda: bringing justice against a couple of evildoers, although there was a true, innocent victim in the form of Lenore in the end.
Mads and Rod were definitely evil ppl already when they met Verna and they proved to be even worse than the Jester CEO and by how their kids all turned out...not one was a decent human being (notice that Lenore was 1 gen away from those 2 for there to be a chance not to turn out evil like her father and uncles/aunts).
As for the acid rave, Phospero(sp?) wanted the 'cream of the crop' so they were all connected/similar to his background and some even had felonies, so not exactly good ppl either. The wait staff were pretty much innocent and hence got spared.
She never 'revelled' in the mess the drug caused, she was always using that against Rod.
@@paulsimonmccarthy9209She's evil *to evil ppl*. Otherwise, why would she care/show emotion about killing Lenore? If she's so evil, she wouldn't care about her or the wait staff. To say absolutes is not seeing the whole picture.
I sobbed when Lenore died! She was the one good Usher. But when I saw Verna sitting in the bed, I went “Oh, yeah, she is part of the bloodline.” 😢
I really hoped in that moment that it would be revealed that Morrie had cheated and she was not Frederick 's daughter. But alas!
Yeah that was such a sad moment!
I cried too. I was wondering if it was coming after she said the bloodline had to die, but she was such a sweet character. I didn’t know if they would go as far as to kill her. I should have known though since the Raven poem is about his lost Lenore
She was so sweet. I really hoped she wasn’t actually Fred’s kid and that her mom cheated, but nah. 😭
@@anoushkas8726This exactly.
She is a neutral entity. Episode 6 gives the most insight into what she truly is. In her conversation with Arthur she says she ‘had to come up top’ to see the people who circumnavigated the globe. Arthur also talks about Ultima Thule, a ‘hollow Earth’ or a realm outside of time and space. Verna constantly insists when they talk, she is outside of time and space, hence why she sees all realities, all time timelines. She is from this realm outside of our own, a fourth dimensional being. She sees all versions of Madeline side by side and it breaks her heart. Satan is a myth. She is real, and all those that reside in Ultima Thule are real. She is not evil, she feeds on possibilities, eating those worlds that would never be because of the deals she makes. She is from another world, an eldritch terror who feeds on the choices of humanity, and in the end cares about the survival of humanity. All that she takes is given back in abundance, hence the Phoenix foundation, Juno and Morelles endeavours to repair what fortunato had ‘tatooed’ on the world. Verna is ‘not a woman’ as she says herself, not even human. They tell us what she is, and where she’s from, and Pym accepts it so quickly because he has seen where she is from, hence why he’ll never speak of it.
I agree. I think she is an agent of the universe who has no master. she makes her own rules and how to enforce them.
This is the best analysis I have seen. Have you made a video with your own analysis?
This is really well written
Wow bro this is beautiful
@@sarap.288 no but I’m thinking about it 😂
Mike Flannigan is so linguistically rich that I overlooked the VERNA = RAVEN thing. He spans the simple to complex so well.
Yeah he's definitely one of the best for that genre!
She brought Usher back to life after he suicides and could count people affected by the good and bad deeds of the characters, which implies that she has almost omnipotent powers. She also seems to be older than humanity itself. She refers to the people she cut deals as clients. I believe she is sort of a manifestation of destiny.
That makes a lot of sense. Also since she knew how the character's lives would turn out if they had made different choices
I always thought that she was Fate
Actually I thought that Verna's character is inspired by the Celtic Goddess of Death, Fate War amd Nature the Morrigan or she is just the manifestation of Karma (consequences one faces per one's actions).
i don’t know if anyone commented on this bit, but i thought the fact that she warned morelle before the chemical rain in the club was very telling that verna is a fair character, she seems to be all about morals, justice and balance
Morals , justice ? Ehh idk , but balance? Absolutely .
@@cartelmusicc9565 yes. she tested the moral compass of each of the siblings, and she even tested roderick and madeline at the bar by making them the offer in the first place, they failed by taking it. this is why she respected pym more. justice can be the same as balance here, she made sure they got what they deserved based on the moral test
She also warned all the siblings too, sadly they were to selfish or greedy
Verna transcends space and time it is implied. She knows all past and all possible futures arising from different choices the person makes. She mentions that Frederick would have been a dentist in another life.
Its wild to me that in discussions around Verna I don't see people bringing up Pym's story about there being a race of people beyond time that live in the center of the earth.
Especially when Verna tells Pym she knows he saw her during the expedition - and that she had to go "topside"
I really think the devil/demon doesn't make much sense. For a show about death there is surprisingly little to do with religion (christianity even less). Verna doesn't seem like an evil entity trying to trick people into giving their souls. But a being that exists outside of our perception of time and reality - and can manipulate it. That sees humans as curious things - taking interest in some and making deals to shift things to their favor - but at a cost, and comes back to judge them after.
All in all I think for the usher's it is still basically a "deal with the devil" in a conceptual manner. But I really think she is more otherworldly than biblical
That too!
I was thinking the same exact thing. I don't think she is an agent of hell but an agent of the universe.
I think verna was a cosmic being that was able to pop back and forth from reality and do what she does best.
I really enjoyed seeing her in action.
I mean I guess you can say she was like the grim.reaper but I think it's too on the nose. I choose to believe she is a cosmic being with great power
I agree, what do you think about the seven deadly sins being attributed to each of the six children and the twins who were greed.
@@nancytorpey3570 Hmm, haven't come across it. It's certainly something Flanagan might do - as the Hill house kids are he stages of grief - pretty sure he confirmed that one.
However I am not immediately convinced on this one, as they don't each align to one very easily in my mind. Rather most suns I could assign to most of the kids. Greed, lust, envy. Most could be given that. While ones like wrath and sloth are more tenuous.
I think it is certainly a valid reading - but may not be the authorial intent.
Oh my fucking god I completely missed that 🥹
Her character was more like the Angel of Free Will. She wasn't the devil or one of his minions. She valued integrity and virtue. It's better the second time you watch it, you catch more of the excellent dialogue. This is an instant classic. We need the fall of the House of Rockefeller Medicine, the real House of (P)usher.
This is the first comment I’ve seen that perfectly states what I’ve been thinking. Verna is free will. Our choices always have results, for better or worse. She represents that entire set of natural laws.
@@Durpydurp4488 I'd say she is the personification of the consequences of the choices we make, due to free will. Particularly the consequences our choices have on others, not necessarily ourselves.
I thought it was meant to be “fall of the house of sackler”
Free will should apply to each human soul, my dad or grandfather making a deal should not affect my free will so no she cant be an angel.. In biblical scripture we all determine our souls fate.. in this Case Roderick determined his families and his granddaughters fate. Lenore was a child and innocent and made no deal but still killed well before her time just because a deal her grandfather made.. Free will is for each human to determine for themselves.. this was not the case in this story.
I like how she realized that Lenore was the only good soul in the Usher family and she took her out quickly without any pain and even gave her reassurance that her mother would recover and change the world
Something about her monologue as the chimp brought tears to my eyes (I tear up when other people would get chills). When she opened her shirt and started to cry out in pain I could _feel_ it. It was awful and incredible
Same. I felt bad for the real animals being tested on
I agree it waa powerful moments
That part scared the life out of me, but you are absolutly right❤
I’m just scared of chimps😅
Verna didn’t say ravens were viewed as minions of Satan, that was Roderick. Verna said that they were believed in a lot of different cultures to bring good fortune.
Verna was incredibly empathetic. She had a moral compass and used truth and knowledge to justify not only her kills but her method. She was unafraid to feel the suffering of others. I wouldn't say she was evil.
So glad to see that so many people saw MORE in this series than the yam bag that created this video with the logic of a 12yr old
I’m fairly certain the morrigan was a major inspiration for verna. Ravens are symbols of the morrigan who influences death (both the method and measure) as well as peoples fortunes and it often associated with having three faces or phases. And she alludes to this with Madeline. Referring to her past present and future, a parallel to the maiden mother and crone symbology found with the morrigan (and hekate)
Lastly Edgar Allen Poe (who wrote the fall of the house of usher) was of Scottish descent and took an interest in Celtic mythology as a young man. The morrigan is a Celtic deity
One thing that really got me about the Ushers deal with Verna…the current generations have basically made this deal as well…maybe not with some all powerful entity but….we use and use our planets resources for comfort and convenience….and the next generations will “foot the bill”…that’s why I kind of like the “Mother Nature” theory for Verna
I loved the series. It seemed to me that Verna allowed everyone to make their own choices, and unfortunately everyone made a bad/wrong choice and they paid dearly for it, with the exception of Lenore. The brother and sister were allowed to see the destruction they had wrought because of their insatiable greed.
Verna sees evey possibility, but not the certainty.
Verna needs her own short movie series, she was awesome to watch...somehow this seemed all to real.
I saw Verna as a Karmic Angel of Death -- an angel from Providence, not fallen. All characters had a choice (free will) when tempted in thier choices -- Verna merely outlined the details of the choice and the price consequences charge. For example, Artur Pym was given a choice with consequences outlined, and he choose his own fate, knowing it meant prison. Verna respected that.
Great analysis but one question would that make her immortal knowing that she gave them that choice and knowing they would choose that way? Or could she have lead them down a better path of redemption? Sometimes people make a deal with the devil and regret the consequences of their desicion, nor did they understand the gravity of their decision at the time of making it, so one would argue she dangled herion to a herion addict.
Excellent point, and your "heroin" example is well taken.@@abbiealverez2960
@@abbiealverez2960I see what you're getting at but Verna tried to warn/bribe all of the usher kids except Napoleon about how their deaths would come. How they all died were solely based on their actions and Verna killed them just so, I don't think it was in your words "dangling heroin to a heroin addict" more so a trying to convince and addict of getting clean but them continuing to do drugs anyway.
Unfortunately for your theory, she's not from any Judeo-Christian tradition. She's a being outside of space, time, and religion. She even denies the existence of a soul in the series.
Verna or the "raven" was not the devil. She was karma. If you read the book and watch the show carefully, she does give them a chance to make a different CHOICE (e.g. Perry).
I don’t see Verna as evil at all…
As Verna said, the meaning of a Raven all depends on your philosophy.
To Roderick, because his mother put it in his head they were bad omens they are bad. Yet to others they are signs of change and good fortune.
But it’s all down to what you do with yourself. And Roderick and Madeline chose a path of destruction. That was not Verna influencing them to do that.
I just realized Verna is an anagram for Raven. How fitting!!
She even mentioned to Camille that she could’ve died in her sleep, but she decided to go to the lab. So here they were.
She reminds me of The Raven Queen from D&D lore.
But Verna seems like a combination of Nephthys, egyptian goddess of the Dead; Baba Yaga, Slavic Crow trickster goddess who would grant blessings to those who prove themselves; and Dhumavati, Hindu crow goddess of death and the void between where time ends and begins.
That's fair!
Leave it to Mr. Pym to be the only corrupt person on the show who refuses the temptation to save his ass in exchange for his soul. He's already done it once.
True!
Carla Gugino's portrayal of Verna was absolutely amazing. Such a talented actor.
Yeah she was amazing in this!
In a way,Verna reminds me of the Outsider from the Dishonored series 😅
Verna is not Satan or even a demon. When she gives the statement that humans have no souls that clearly implies not Satan as it requires humans to have souls. Also she feels good at the positive things Lenore did and the help to humanity her mother is going to bring. There are other examples. So no Verna is not Satan or even a demon. She is a more of a God or entity not affiliated with Christianity more of a Karma/Fate or some other God not related to Christianity but more of an ancient deity. Maybe even an Egyptian God or Greek God. Even in the Eastern God…neither good or bad.
I see Verna as a foreshadowing of death. With that said she does kind of warn some of the kids, she allows them to bring the things that happen to them on themselves. I loved this series so much. To me it is about how far will you actually go to get what you want & how power can change people, When Roderick decided to take the deal he had 2 kids already and knew he was playing God with their lives, that just shows what kind of man he was. One of my favorite moments besides Lorne's & Verna's exchange was when she asked Arthur Plym what are your assets? Not what you have, own,etc. what you bring of value as a person. I think this shows that Verna is compassionate & moral, and knows money does not bring you happiness. and she has to carry out the deal that was made.
I don’t think she’s a demon. She seems to be neither good nor evil
She's pure evil
@@missnna1999pure evil doesn't show compassion. She is more than likely Death herself. A version of the Grim Reaper that has the ability to make pacts.
The collateral she/it engineered at Perry's party in EP.2 was brutal.
It was! Definitely horrific!
With all the Egyptian references in the show I’d say Verna was a take on the entire egyptian pantheon as a single entity.
That’s fair! That’s an interesting thought!
This character was not evil.
Do you not think?
She made the show to me
Yeah she was definitely one of the best characters!
I absolutely loved this!
Yeah it was such an awesome show!
She was brilliant but my favorite character was author the lawyer..I wish we saw more of his story..because seeing her on the ice was a nice eerie foreshadowing
That’s fair! Yeah true he was a great character!
I am aware that this show is meant to be art, and therefore can be taken in many different ways. I would like to believe that Flannigan tries his best to make this show in that way on purpose. Sure, there are definites, like Verna being an anagram for raven and stuff, but as for what I think she is, I truly believe that she was/is an agent of hell and possibly Lucifer himself.
I feel that people like to put things into little boxes and label them accordingly, and that is actually great usually as humanity wouldn't have gotten far without the ability to adapt in ways like this. But I feel that most people when hearing the name lucifer, Satan, the devil, etc associate it with complete darkness and evil. And yes, it is pretty much true right? The devil is bad, the negative to the heaven's positive. But I kept remembering one of my favorite quotes from the crucible while watching this show. It's the classic one from Reverend Hale.
"Until an hour before the Devil fell, God thought him beautiful in Heaven."
Lucifer was, unquestionably, the highest held in God's favor, the most beautiful, the one that showed the very most potential. If that is so, then old Luci must have shown a lot of emotions, actions, and traits that God wanted to encourage. Traits like intelligence, resourcefulness, and yes even empathy. Much like we see in toxic relationships or from narcissistic individuals, a person can emulate kindness, can make you truly BELIEVE they have goodness in them, despite it actually being used as a tool for manipulation.
The question in my mind is, how can any man alive or dead in our entire history, say for certain that they know who the devil truly is or how they might act? That is something to me, that only God would know. If Lucifer is known to be 'tricky, cunning, deceitful" then they cannot simply just be labelled bad and only be bad. It would make sense then, that the devil has to be more complex than just being/acting evil all the time. Truly the devil wouldn't get very far if they were obviously evil and wanting to make a deal. Trickery and snake oil selling requires charisma and a talent for building trust.
Verna states that they are not a woman when a character refers to them as such but chooses the form of a woman. Why? Well, maybe because Satan is the embodiment of sin and betrayal, and it was an innocent woman (Eve) that it was able to trick into the original of sins. For the devil, it would be like mockery, it would be like a secret joke, that only those who are timeless would get the punchline to.
Verna takes a lot more than they give, and when they give it is solely out of their own selfish motivation. They are able to bring back Roderick, yes, but only because they want him to die at exactly the time and precisely the way that they wanted, as stated in so many words by Verna themself. And technically, they did not give Roderick 'life', they merely forced him to vomit up the contents he had taken and reversed a very recent process of unconsciousness. Something I suppose, akin to a stomach pump and a wave of smelling salts could do. It LOOKS powerful, until you understand what is happening. I'd imagine our medicine and technology today might look like Godhood to those far in the past. So technically, I don't think Verna was 'giving' Roderick anything, not even more time, they just wanted to remain on control. If you think about it, about 90% of this show, Verna is taking 'what they are owed". In fact, the entire premise to this show, is about taking and coveting. The Usher family, Verna, etc all covet and take whatever and whenever they want. Perhaps Verna acted like they wished it could have been another way, perhaps they seemed sorrowful at certain points. But for someone that was just doing their job or making sure the deal was settled, they sure looked like they were enjoying themselves and relishing in the torment at certain crucial points. And I believe that in those moments, the veil slipped, and Verna (Lucifer) was showing their true feelings.
Verna spent a lot of time preaching about the awfulness of humanity and all the things we do that are ignorant, evil, or just plain absurd. And the thing is, despite what Verna was and what they were doing during the show, they could not have been more right. How far we have fell as a species, when one year of sacrifice could ensure that the world would never know suffering again, and yet...we still put currency in things only for ourselves or immediate gratification. Remember too, that Lucifer could not fathom God's love for humanity. He saw them as flawed, stupid, ugly beings and above all else, envied them so much that it caused his eventual downfall. Those speeches seem to make a little more sense to me, when I observe them form the point of view of someone who is talking face to face with the creation he has absolutely resented and detested since the dawn of time.
Well, what about Lenore? Verna looked like they were sorrowful about taking that life. Well, I have a few theories about that, but mostly I came to the realization that the original deal that Madeline and Roderick had made all those years ago with Verna, was that they and all of their children, would die at the same time. The deal didn't say anything about which souls would go to heaven or hell, and of course the devil being the devil, most likely wouldn't have wanted to get hung up on those details while in the midst of a deal heavily in their favor I would imagine.
I believe that with each of the Usher's children's deaths, they took pleasure and relished in it because each one of them were theirs to toy with and had evil tendencies and an ugliness that meant most certainly their souls were theirs for an eternity. But 'sweet' Lenore, could never belong to Verna. She had no ugliness, and no evil in her heart. And so, the deal was paid in full, that Lenore had to die with her family, but her soul was not Vernas to take or toy with. Something that can be viewed very obviously when looking at all of the dead family members side by side, Lenore looks 'untouched", she is not mangled. She is dead, yes, but she is not quite as gruesome looking when compared to her other family members. We see this same behavior when Verna is denied by Arthur Pym and Auguste Dupin. Verna tries to strike a deal with Pym but is respectfully declined after pitching the deal to him. And Verna then immediately, within the same breath as his last word, disappears. Only then to next be seen watching on with an almost sorrowful gaze, as Arthur is arrested and heading to jail. Why sorrowful? Because each soul the devil wins over, is like an arrow into the heart of their enemy (God). What you see as genuine sorrow, is just selfishness tucked under the surface, imho. Now with Auguste Dupin, if you notice, she never approaches him. Not only because he isn't part of the deal, but because perhaps, Verna (Satan) knows there is no point, he is "the richest man in all the world" because at the end of the story he has found happiness in letting go of his lifelong quest and is able to enjoy his family and life. He is a good man, genuinely good in his heart, and is therefore a waste of Verna's time.
I could go on and on, but I've already wrote a novel here. I'm not saying this theory of mine is 100% right or anyone else's is wrong. I'm just throwing this out there to show just how complex Verna's character was and just how great of a job the actress and Flannigan did when creating this show. Truly well done!
I can’t get over how Roderick kept having kids knowing he made a deal
Yeah it's bad isn't it. Shows his true mindset and feelings!
Poe did not write about the devil as a character or engaging in Faustian pacts (except in the lesser story "Never Bet the Devil Your Head"). Verna is most closely described as a psychopomp, an entity who leads souls of the recently deceased to the world below (note in one episode she said that she had to go 'topside'). Cheapneasy is correct in that Verna is similar to the Irish triplicate-goddess Morrigan, who appeared as a raven and brought about death, particularly in battle.
Verna can also examine different dimensions, timelines, or possible futures. She mentions that the guy who dies in the abandoned building he was a good dentist in another life.
I think she is The Morrigan, because of seeing the possibilities of different futures had the family members chosen different. Also tracks with the raven, shape-shifting, and association with death.
I acquired a very old book with a collection of Edgar Alan Poe poems in it. This movie has quite a few references to other poems he has written
Yeah it does! It’s got many which is really cool!
In Indian mythology, the raven is associated with the deity ,Shani or Saturn. Saturn is known as a really taxing deity, associated with Karma,in Hinduism. Too dark in his ways to be even worshipped and known for testing human beings in all sorts of ways, and punishes people during their lifetime for misdeeds.
Verna seems to be a similar kind of force. She cannot be a demon because she said she found no joy in taking away Leonore 's soul. Similarly, she appreciated that Arthur Pym refused her offer for any kind of leverage, realizing he was already old and no one to live for.
She mentions to Madeline that Roderick would have been a great poet if he had refused the deal and had not been so driven by ambition.
I wonder why she promoted choice to the kids, when ultimately they would all die. I'm guessing, if they chose differently, their death would be less fatal?
Maybe Verna is a being from the other side of where Pym said there was an island near antartica? Rodrick was explaining (a story Pym told to one of the kids) to Dupin.
Verna was my favorite character in the whole series.
Yeah she was awesome!
I thought she was Death and that the raven was a symbol just showing that someone was going to die. However I really enjoyed your commentary, almost as much as I enjoyed the Mini-series. I binge-watched that in the space of 2 days, only because I had some things to do. I could’ve watched it in one day! LOL.
Signed Gary’s fam mem T
I think Carla's depiction of Verna makes her somewhat terrifying, in that she's playing an entity capable of terrible things, but she can appear so loving, kind, and empathetic. It's scarier than, say, a demon who only threatens you and appears monstrous, because she can make you believe she's not all bad, and can seem so genuine.
Alot of people are saying that shes a goddess of sort(Mainly Morrigan) or some evil minion of satan but I think she's just a deity that Mike Flannagan made up for the show that heavily inspired from other deities.
But she's definitely some sort of being that came from the underworld because of a dialogue that she had with Arthur Pym saying that she wanted to go 'topside'. And there isnt really a Raven God or Goddess that we know of and they normally play as a symbolism like messengers or omen but apart from Odin's Ravens, alot of mythos uses crows as a representation of themselves and not raven.
There's a few: Apollo, Athena, Macha, Morrigan, and Badh (Irish crow goddesses associated with crows and ravens), just to name a small handful. So to say that there are none that we know of is baseless.
@@lunesterv5802 What I mean is that there isnt a deity that we know of that fully uses a Raven as a representation of themselves, think like Egyptian Deities like Horus; Falcon, Bastet; Cat, or Greek like Hecate; Her hounds, etc.
Ravens are used as messengers with Apollo and Athena but the stories that both had depicted Crows (Coronis) and in the end, the whole entire Corvidae family is thrown in into the story which is why alot of modern day retelling mixes up the 2 when Crows were the OG.
So yes with Morrigan and her sisters, they use both or even the family of Corvids but their original mythos were initially crows.
Alot of mythos uses Crows as a representation of something while Ravens are normally just messengers or companions.
Maybe im just reading too much into it but you dont associate Aphrodite's Doves with Pigeons even though they belong in the same family for an example.
VERNA IS Nephthys. Here's the reasons
1) Nephthys, or “Mistress of the House,” was the goddess of the air (since the sky is the “head” of the world) and the head of the family. Nephthys is the Greek form of Nebt-het or Nebhet, meaning “lady of the house.”
2) when making the original deal she notes in the old days they would have used papyrus (amongst other things). This was commonly used by ancient egyptians.
3)Also, the Raven showing up everywhere is a huge giveaway. The raven's role as a guardian of the deceased is a recurrent theme in ancient Egyptian mythology. Nephthys, the goddess of the dead and overseer of funerary rites, is often depicted with the crow or raven as one of her symbols. The bar with a raven on it was no coincidence.
4)Nephthys is a goddess who gives the pharaoh power to see "that which is hidden by moonlight". This is possibly an allegory for future events
, as to most thr future is unknown and hidden in darkness.
5) This goddess has been described as having negative and positive traits. It's obvious in the show that sometimes she tries to give people a kindess when she can, but can be angered when witnessesing acts of cruelty.
6) she mentions to Pym that she came up from below to watch him on the expedition he was on. This couls be a reference to her dwelling in the duat (egyptian land of the dead).
7) Edgar Allen Poe has at least one story about Ancoent Egypty (its a conversation with a mummy), and the Adevnturrs of Arthur Gordan Pym talks about How some pf their discoverys had Egyptian Hieroglyphs on them.
8) Nephthys was able to raise the dead. Which is most likely what she did with the Ushers mother and latter Madelyn Usher. Why the focus on Egyptian burial rites and Verna refering to Madeline as Cleopatra (there's the obvious 'female ruler' angle. But Isis was cleopatras patron diety and Nephthys is the sister twin of Isis, she would have known Cleopatra personally. Cleopatra also had tons of wealth and power but met a tragic end). Additionally, Nepthys was able to grant protections to the dead and possibly living.
I dont think the Egyptian and Raven References were just throw aways. Verna makes egyptian references several times.
Cheers
I think she is the devil in disguise. Her character was brilliant and Carla Gugino did a fantastic job! This whole series was fantastic!
Such a Brilliant adaptation of everything Edgar Allen Poe did.
@BrainPilot Also something to note: Every Usher individual died doing something she suggested (or obviously gave them a choice) on what they shouldn`t do, they all ignored her & had a gruesome death. If you think about it, she gave them all a chance to change the kind of people they were & if they`d listened then they would`ve died differently
It was also said that ravens are a omen of good in some cultures so why are youtubers saying verna is a Linked to satan she was never cruel only gave the deaths they deserved since most of the usher kids dident listen to her warning to me it showed verna isnt a demon but some being of death and observer of life since she could see the lives they would have if they chose a difrent path
She's not a demon, although it's understandable if you think that (there's even one scene where she's mentions she went "topside", which could be implied she came up from Hell). She's more of a deity of sorts. She can be kind, she has a moral code and she does what she does for the main reason why gods do anything with mortals; because it's amusing to them.
I think has been her best role so far
Yeah she was awesome in this role!
She's actually The Morrigan
I see her as a being like Nanno from Girl From Nowhere, which is also an excellent series on Netflix. Nanno is the personification of karma and vengeful justice, while Verna is more of an entity that embodies Fate and Fortune.
If Verna was in league with Satan, she wouldn’t be so angry and sad about having to take Lenore’s life.
She warned Roderick that anyone in his bloodline would pay the price, she warned him. And yet he didn’t warn his children what was ahead. And clearly for Verna, good deeds in her eyes earn a peaceful trip to the other side at no cost, bad deeds will be paid for in full in awful ways.
She was neither angry nor sad though. She was indifference & did not enjoy killing a pure hearted girl like Lenore. It could be argued, she would be way more happy if she kill a corrupted Lenore, like if Lenore is a bully or gold digger or whatever evil teen stereotypical nowadays.
Verna really reminds me of The Kid in Castle Rock and VM Varga in Fargo.
Verna is the Raven and also Maat the she weighs the heart against one or feathers and determines their fates.
They never really get into Verna's background, other than she had been around since the dawn of Civilization. On one hand she is portrayed as sort of good, giving the Usher children the fates they deserve, but also attempted to show some of them mercy and giving them a last-minute chance to find peace. Yet on the other hand, she IS the one responsible for giving them the power to do all the evil they did in life with no consequences. So, in reality, she was as much responsible, if not more so, for all the evil they did as they themselves were. So, I certainly wouldn't say she was "good", I would say she was more likely an "evil" entity, but one with at least a touch of morality.
Having just re-read Poe's short story, I find there is barely a seed of a story in this excellent modern series. Yes, the name Usher has been retained and a crumbling "house" or family. That seems to be where the similarity between Poe's narrative and the current interpretation ends.
Yeah i've been reading Poe's tales and poems since watching this show and they're amazing reads!
She is a Yakshini, or Karna Pishachini in Tantra- Female beings of different lower/higher realms than us and the Goddess.
Often influencial people do their "Sadhana" to gain power/money/fame but with a great sacrifice in return. People often invoke them for their greedy purposes
Carla Gugino has once again demonstrated what a marvelous actress she is in the role of Verna!
Definitely did!
@@BrainPilotI remember first seeing her as a child actress in "Troop Beverly Hills" when I was a Girl Scout, this series is a far cry from that movie!
she is not satan, she is death
Definitely open for interpretation!
Carla who plays Verna is terrifying. Especially the part where she hopped up on table as chimp. I believed she was satan but just in different form
I see who she is clean as day. She is "The Morrigan". The raven of Irish myth and she is definitely NOT evil or a demon. The Morrigan is the shape changing goddess of magic, death and justice. Her 3 Earthly aspects are Macha, Morrigu and Badb.
People mistake death as an ending. It's not, it's a balancing act just like justice. Yes, Roddy and Maddy's body count was high but that means their fall hit so much harder. They had the opportunity to change the world but Roddy was a fraud (in his confession) and the world suffered for it.
Every Usher made their own beds and got what they deserved in the end. With the exception of Lenore. She was completely innocent but the balance of her death was explained perfectly by Verna. That's why the ending had an optimistic tone. Auggie inherited the Earth while Pym rots in jail. This is making way for real change, lasting change. Just like Verna, The Morrigan loves symmetry (AKA balance, justice).
I loved this show because it captures Irish pagan myth & spirituality sooooo well. This could be the same universe as American Gods. She has NOTHING to do with anything in Christian mythology. You have to think outside of that.
She may be related to fate and death but as you yourself said, she wasn't evil. You went biblical when this was about so much more than that.
Carla Gugino was an absolute revelation as Verna in this series.
She didn’t turn into a chimpanzee; she has the power of illusion. The chimp was there the whole time - Camille saw Verna instead until it was too late
Verna is not a minion of satan. She offers choices with clear consequences, she’s not malicious and the scene where she takes the life of Lenore perfectly illustrates this. There’s a lot Egyptian imagery and metaphor throughout this series so I’m more inclined to believe she’s some variation of Nephthys, mother of Anubis or an amalgamation of various myths that include Nephthys although Carla describes the character as a neutral entity.
Meaning, their deaths didn't have to be so gruesome. But they couldn't change or stop who they truly were, that's why their deaths were brutal. All but Lenores, because she was pure.
While even actors interpret parts their own way, this part, to me, was the classic crossroads entity or trickster deal maker. Every culture has it in different forms, names and settings with most sharing similar traits. The most obvious examples would be Exu the primordial energy and Eleggua but there are plenty of other examples. And they are usually neither good nor bad, they just are, they offer, and its usually the actions Taken by the accepting party that abuse and misuse often braking or trying to get out of deals that leads to the negative aspects of said entities to manifest and correct situations previously agreed upon. In short, careful what you wish for, you might get it.
Another interesting detail was the name of the black cat: PLUTO. This was the romanic name for HADES, the God of the underworld in Greek mythology!
I was hoping that Verna would have the heart to let Lenore live because I felt like Verna had a kind heart somewhere deep down inside. That was a very sad moment and when I found out that Annabell Lee also committed suicide. 😢😢😢
Yeah, Lenore had the most peaceful death but it was hardest one to accept.
I kept hoping that she was adopted and technically not part of the bloodline or that Roderick would find a loophole to somehow save her as an act of redemption.
i'd like to think she's a similar being to that of dream from the sandman series where she's not a demon like Mazikeen or an Angel like Lucifer but somewhere in between and that she's the very embodiment of the concept of Karma.
Thanks for breaking this masterpiece down into tidbits that ANYONE WHO NEVER READ POE'S WORK into a Cliff Notes version for people that won't ever read the Cliff Notes. Way to be 180 degrees off on all of it.
I think this is close, but personally, I believe Verna is an incarnation of Azriel the angel of death. I think she was always going to collect their souls at some point and I think she even stated that Roderick and Madeline were not going to live any longer or shorter as a result of their deal. I think she was testing their moral fiber, and allowing them to essentially choose the method of their own death. They could’ve had a quiet, peaceful one like with Lenore, but instead, they chose greed and build their empire on the bodies of others. So Verna came to collect an appropriate death.
Whether devil or The Morrigan or Hecate, she is a supernatural/god-like being who influences life and destiny. She could come by many names.
On a deeper scale this show is kinda all about multiverses,, or the Schrødingers cat paradox. Kinda cool, but i wish they would have showed Roderick and Madaline possible paralell storylines - so they would have got to see what their bad chooses brought them, and what good life's they missed because of greed..
All in all another greate show from Mike Flanagan, though i liked midnight mass a little better. But i love all the actors, and i hope he gets them on the show also!
Verna is cool and all and I want to know more about her but is anyone else down for watching Netflix do a dark series about Pym's expedition? I know I would.
There's a lot of Egyptian references making me think she's partly a physical manifestation of divine judgement
I don’t think that Verna is death as some have speculated. In the mythologies of death personified that I’ve seen/ read, Death tends to be impartial not seeking to gather more lives through deals but definitely pursuing them when they “cheat death.”
Not death but a crossroads demon
I'm going crazy what D&S alignment is Verna, I'm going with chaotic neutral.
It is also likely that verna is from the center of the earth, as it is stated in the north pole pim found the earth was hollow, and that verna "went topside" to see pim at the north pole.
That’s an interesting way to look at it!
She was great. Very underrated
Definitely was!
Shes basically a combination of the streets and the game from Lupes Fiascos magnum opus The Cool
She was literally Lucifer.
The deal.
The power of illusion.
Telling you not to do something, while dangling it right in front of you.
The list goes on n on lol .
Exactly ppl are lost...the serpent said to Eve you shall not die and death has never left due to sin....the siblings sold their soul for the love of money, power etc
The Raven in the poem isn’t supernatural. Ravens can talk (like parrots) and the bird learned the words never more because the narrator kept repeating them.
verna was mother nature!
She is like Andre Linoge in Storm of the century of Stephen King,that kind of demon.
She is NOT a minion of Satan. She is a neutral entity. if all the Usher kids weren't such shitheads (bar Lenore), she'd have let them die peacefully. That's merciful. A minion of Satan wouldn't show that sort of mercy
Do you think? That's a fair opinion!
House of Usher villain - Verna
Stranger Things villain - Vecna
Czech Republic's entry in the last Eurovision - Vesna
I'm starting to see a pattern here...
Definitely loved the character.
Yeah she was awesome!