Everything you know about German history is wrong. | Katja Hoyer interview
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มี.ค. 2023
- Katja Hoyer is a journalist and historian.
Her next book, Beyond the Wall, is out on April 6.
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I was lucky enough to be taught history by Katja for almost 5 years. Great historian and fantastic teacher
@colethompson6914...not realy!
I’m envious. I’m currently reading “Beyond the Wall” and it’s really enjoyable.
An excellent interview. It's so refreshing to hear a German historian talk about the DDR, and its impact on modern Germany, Russia and the conflict in the Ukraine. Its a subject that is ignored so often, as if the DDR never existed. I'm no German expert, but I travel to East Berlin often, and I definitely still see very much an 'East German' identity, that has a natural alignment to Russia, politically and geographically. If you want to see it in reality, go to a Union Berlin v Hertha Berlin football derby or go and watch Dynamo Dresden.
Went to plenty of Union Berlin games, but not v Hertha, except in a bar. Never noticed a Cold War element to it. Union was not the "official" team of DDR Berlin - linked to the police or the state. That was Dynamo Berlin, which is now a minor club
@@mango4ttwo635 I'd love to go a Dynamo Berlin game, even though they've fallen through the leagues. This January I took the S-Bahn from Pankow back to the Airport after the Union v Hertha derby. The train was 50/50 split between Union and Hertha fans. The journey took over an hour, and it was fascinating to listen to the arguments (mostly friendly) between the rival fans. Basically, it centred on money and wealth. Union fans were laying into Hertha fans about their lack of success though they're the 3rd richest club in Germany (after Dortmund and Bayern). Union fans, to me, still had that old East German solidarity based around hard work, modesty and equality.
@@theanglianflaneurs5857 I was also told that they originated from trade unions and the labour movement (anything to do with their name??), and of crs, they come from one of the poorer parts of Berlin. So, I guess the solidarity thing makes sense.
I was in Berlin for two years, and watched Union in not particularly full grounds playing in the second league. I watched them get promotion on a mega screen behind their stadium. the past few years is a great story
@@mango4ttwo635 I'm praying that Union win the Bundesliga, but I think Dortmund or Bayern will prevail (Yawn, yawn). Its a fantastic story. Union were formed in 1966 from FC Olympia Oberschöneweide. Hans Modrow, the last DDR leader, was one of the founding members of Union Berlin.
@@mango4ttwo635 Nope. Sports in the GDR were 100% controlled and financed by the state (and the state was the ruling party SED); and of course were "official" (there were no inofficial clubs). While BFC were part of the Dynamo sports organisation (which was the sports organisation of police, customs and secret service. Mielke btw was head of the whole of Dynamo, but not of BFC.), Union's "sponsors" were the FDGB (the 100% SED-controlled trade unions board) and some local (state-owned) factories like KWO. They also had the support of the local (Berlin Koepenick) branch of the SED.
I know Union claim to have roots in pre-war sides that were linked to the local working class of the Koepenick borough (which btw wasn't that poor/proletarian as some of the inner city boroughs) but I do not buy into this as there's no historic continuity whatsoever.
Off the subject, it is interesting to note that Margaret Thatcher was not happy with the idea of German unification for reasons of Germany becoming a military power in the future (which is beginning to happen). I would therefore beg to ask Katja if East Germany would have faired better without unification and followed a similar path to independence such as other Eastern Bloc countries e.g. Poland and Hungary? Just to add that Katja is certainly one who puts many stereotypes about the former GDR and other aspects of German history to sleep. I look forward to reading her book.
Germany is quite the opposite of a burgeoning military power.
Thank you PoliticsJOE for posting this interview. Extremely informative and very interesting. Will definitely check out the book, I absolutely love learning.
This was so interesting. Thank you for putting this out. Thanks to Katja & excellent interview
Though I’m probably a bit older than Katja, I am also an East German who has been living in the UK for about a decade, so this was very interesting to me (for example, I also had six years of Russian in school). Most of my hometown was burned down by drunk Russian soldiers on the last day of WWII, and my family was part of the political opposition during the GDR, so my view of Russia is not as friendly as it might be for many in the older generations. I was also fortunate to be able to study English in school and later lived in the US. I had no idea about some of the connections of the East German political leadership to the Soviet leadership, and am looking forward to reading Katja’s book!
@germansnowman
...read better Wolfgang Leonhard "Die Revolution entläßt ihre Kinder"!
Really interesting interview, thank you. I'm looking forward to reading the book.
Humanizing the enemy - I've never heard of a better reason to be against war.
Waging war should be done sparingly, but is at times a valid necessity.
Not so sure east germans humanising russians should be framed as a bad thing - you can appreciate russian art and literature (who doesn’t?) and still be critical of the actions of Russian leaders? Would we prefer people see Russian people as one homogenous blob?
She isn't framing the humanisation of Russian people as a bad thing though, is she? She explains the historical context and connections. But said humanisation does go hand in hand with many East Germans viewing Russia through rose coloured glasses, parroting Russian talking points and not being critical of the actions of Russian leaders. And the share of East Germans who take the side of Russia against Ukraine and wouldn't mind Ukriane being absorbed by Russia is staggeringly high in East as compared to the West Germany.
An enthralling interview . Many thanks . I live in Bavaria and it strikes me as the Germans, A)understand, B) have come to terms with and C) are determined to learn from their history in a way that I wish the English could do . I am currently reading a book about Landshut, (where I live) written by local historians . It is a fascinating insight into how ordinary people lived during the nazi regime. I will definitely buy
Frau Hoyer's book.
What do you think we Brits haven't learnt? We learnt that slavery was bad and ended it. We learnt that colonialism is bad and ended it. And I could go on and on and on. So what is it that we are supposed to learn about our past that hasn't been learnt?
@@richardhorrocks1460 Perhaps you missed William the Conqueror' s legacy (see Land ownership), the Empire's oft-celebrated colonial ills and recently, the ridiculous jingoism and propaganda involved in Brexit?
@@harveybrown37 You'll have to explain your point a bit to me. I'm not saying that Britain isn't perfect, but the comment implies that Germany faced up to its past and learnt lessons, and I'm just saying that we have done on multiple occasions - many times leading the world - throughout our history. If you are saying that we need to re-think jingoism then fair enough, but it's hardly genocide, is it?
@@richardhorrocks1460 The UK invented Concentration camps, Hitler admired her colonialism. Perhaps you have missed the Asylum Bill. Post WW2, the UK wrote these Laws our Government is about to break. As for our land, the most unequally shared in the world bar Brazil, most of it still belongs to direct descendants of William the Conqueror' s Knights. Don't get me started on our 19th Century Political system, correctly described by Lord Hailsham 50 years ago as an ' Elective Dictatorship'.
An eye opener interview, thank you!
"Everything you know about German history is wrong." is a bid too bold a statement and the thumbnail is unfortunately misleading as hell, since it is only a bit about the german "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" at the end. But I guess its a good introduction for the Anglosphere.
Some thoughts though:
* She jumps more or less directly from Stalin to re-unification/Wende which ignores decades not so much dominated by political oppression but a kind of "grey" "frozen" time of intellectual and economic stagnation. People were less motivated by breaking free from STASI suppression, but they once in a lifetime wanted to go on vacation in Italy, wear Jeans of proper quality and listen to Udo Lindenberg, Einstürzende Neubauten etc.
* The official GDR was much more aligned with the USSR, then other countries of the eastern block. People from Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia had way less problems to move west then people from the GDR. Honecker was rhyming about the invincible Socialism ("Den Sozialismus in seinem Lauf...") while Poland already had "Solidarność" for almost a decade. "Karl-Eduard von Schnitzler" was polemicising against the west in a harsh Goebbels-style not heard in other countries except the USSR itself.
* The story about the "russian pen pal" sounds sweet but I think it has more to do with economics. People simply were aiming towards simple everyday freedoms and a better choice in consumer goods, as sad and un-heroic as that sounds. They simply could not imagine what it means to give up the "social security" aspect of Honeckers Wonderland for those freedoms.
* The GDR culture was a culture of scarcity and that is very deeply ingrained. Everybody knew someone who knew where to get spare parts for your car etc.,.. So they are more pragmatic about rising prices for energy and other commodities. Not so much to do with a cultural alignment with Russia.
* The statement that germany only has two ministers from the east is a bit bold. We had a Kanzler from the east for 16 years and I think the majority agrees she did a decent job. Not many West-Germans were complaining that they were not represented.
The West just has to subsidize the east for 40 years more otherwise they threaten to align with putin and/or vote AFD but hen we finally will be re-united ;-)
Merkel was born in Hamburg (just saying). ;) I don't think she did a decent job at all, nor did any other chancellor post 1990 (at least in my book). But then again I don't consider myself part of "the majority and strongly opposed "re-unification" in 1990.
Wow you really have a shallow almost western german perspective. I mean you pretend to know so much while not really being informed as much as you imagine.
@@holgerlinke98 So the sedinition of shallow is "western german" and the more shallow a perspective is the more "western german" it is ?
Lets say we might very well have different perspectives while I don't see the point of proclaiming one more shallow than the other.
@@oncaphillis well the typical western perspective is usually shallow, doesn't make it the definition of shallow tho. Your's is definitely shallow and your ignorance makes it so that you also believe it is correct and justified. Come on, let the cold war mentality in your head finally fade away.
@@holgerlinke98 where's the beef ? you don't argue against my initial statement. You just theorize about my general mental state and write smth. like "west german" == shallow.
Brilliant interview Joe. East German history is often put to one side, but if anything, we should consider it with as much significance as other recent German historical periods.
???
This is hands down the best interview Joe has put out. More retrospective histories (as well as the UK beat 'em ups), as they give our current space and time so much more context and illumination.
"Wende" in German is the root of "went", the strange past tense of "go" in English. Where's my prize 🏆? 🎉😊
Actually comes from "wenden", meaning 'to turn over or around' .. 'went' is past tense of 'to go', which is the wrong verb .. having grown up in the 90's near the old border in the region of Lüneburg/Lauenburg/Lüchow Dannenberg/Uelzen, the circumstances and issues couldn't have been more present in every day .. time spent in Berlin between '93-'99 is difficult to put into words .. vielen Dank für die Erläuterungen und Gegenüberstellung; man erkennt anhand der Fragen wie wenig Deutschland im eigenen Selbstfindungswesen von Auswärts tatsächlich erkannt und verstanden wird
@@l1ncs I know. I did German and Arabic at university. 👍 Is there another verb in English that uses two different source verbs for Present Simple and Past Simple? "Wende" is INDEED the root of "wenden" ACTUALLY und seit immer.
You're from Lincolnshire. Können Sie überhaupt Englisch (sprechen)? 🇨🇵🇪🇺
why are these interviews so quiet?
I went to Stasi HQ in 2020, and visited East Berlin (Köpenick) when I was a German student in 1982. This is a book which is going "on ze list" 🤔😂. I look forward to reading the eastern German story since reunification +1. Going to watch a bit of MDR (eastern German TV) on TH-cam now.
Unfortunately Germany has not come to terms with the crimes German commited against the Polish. They have done that in relation to the Holocaust, now they are coming to terms with crimes against other Germans or the "revenge" the red army has perpetrated on them. But sadly this historian also does not move the conversation about the devastation Germany unleashed on Poland and her population. There are no memorials to this in Germany and the knowledge is also minimal. There is nothing new in this interview that was not already known - what we know about the German history is right.
Damn, with a title like that... credit rating still okay?
Very interesting interview I briefly lived in Leipzig and I remember how fucked all the pavements and roads were!
Very very interesting.
Audio levels are so low. Hard to hear in headphones.
Use close captions , CLICK ON CC
PC, amp, speakers.
No problem here.
Maybe it's because you use a silly phone for internet content?
Great interview. Would love to see you interview Matthew Goodwin for his new book, asking some challenging questions.
Hi.. could you start doing these interviews as podcasts? It’s much more convenient than try to listen to TH-cam on the go.
Listening TH-cam videos as podcasts is the only reason to buy TH-cam premium, let’s be honest
Hi Politics Joe, right from the start I was very surprised to hear this young woman speak the way she does, it reflects quite badly on my own unconscious prejudices, that while I would expect a good deal of hostility from within some sectors of West Germany because Russia was the enemy that beat them to hear of less hostility from East Germany that remained under Russian domination for so long to be less hostile is unexpected!. It speaks to the fact that as I did actually know the warped anti-communist propaganda that we were drowning in was indeed mis-leading.
I did know the bad press was directed at German secret service personnel applying their interpretation of what was certainly provoked by western hostility and propaganda.
What we do hear is some of the reality that should be better considered where it is the actual experience of each and every individual that really matters, there are always some cohorts in every culture that take the upper hand and others that fall victim to repression and persecution.
It is always worth remembering that Hitler and the nazis 'enjoyed' a great deal of popularity in the nineteen thirties and the persecution of the minorities was very well supported in the general population. That is not to discount in any way the fact that all modern western governments are dominated by the small minority with the energy and enthusiasm to push ahead with their own agendas without any regard to real justice, honour or integrity, just lust for power, they then fully supported by far too many subscribers only too happy to encourage others to serve their private interests, the entire concept of the 'will of the people' and majority rule is a myth perpetuated and sustained by those who desire it and those who can profit by it, the only thing the majority can ever do is more harm than good!. The last thing humanity needs to have everybody on the same trajectory doing the same things with the same resources.
Cheers, Richard.
Video ACTUALLY starts at 1:41
I don't see the need in these pointless intros
NATO is not defensive it is offensive look at what they did to Libya. How did destroying Libya protect NATO.?It did the opposite it harmed people living in NATO countries bc of the migrant crisis that NATO caused by destroying Libya.
Brillant
of course it is. thing is if they had concentrated on trade not war they would have been number one in the world
fantastic historian my breeches
Really interesting.
I struggled to follow the accent, I put "Closed Captions", which struggled a whole lot more than me.
oh we know, we're just not allowed to speak the truth about it
Those who remember the time before the wall is an ever declining number. There are many many more that know the stories from their own families how russian soldiers conducted themselves in WW2.
Are you referring to the nearly 30 million lives lost defeating Hitler ?
15:10 What is she talking about??? They offered things like: Wait 15 years for a Trabbi (Carton garbage car) instead of 20 years. Or get allowance to apply for a telephone land line.
The pointless, irritating, distracting “music” stops at about 1:40. By then I was so pissed off I decided to write this and didn’t watch the rest of the video.
🤠💜
React to be led by donkeys prank mp’s
They always somehow forget, that the Germans treated the locals not much worse then the Communists...
This effectively holocaust denial you're spouting
@@NedTesco There is no "holocaust denial"!!! I worked for the Jewish Claims Conference in the early 2000. I know what happend - got insight details of many hundreds of survivors still alive reporting their suffering through Mengele.
If you look at the numbers, Stalin killed 20 million, many in Ukraine with starvation. Mao up to 70 million killed with GL and CR. Killing it's own population was not just practiced by the Nazis at that time.
th-cam.com/video/lhNM7wL_FeE/w-d-xo.html
24:00 sounds like west germans ought to learn a thing or two for once
Chancellor Merkel was in fact russophile. She was very good at Russian and obtained a rare scholarship to study in the Soviet-Union. She was also the daughter of a Lutheran pastor who moved his familiy from Hamburg (West Germany) to East Germany because of his socialist convictions. This tells a lot about her. Moreover there are rumours that she was an informal informant of the stasi (code name Erika). What is certainly true is that she was a secretary of the communist youth organisation (FdJ) in her work place as a physist. A role which she later downplayed quite successfully.
She had to join it because if she didn't, she wouldn't have been allowed to attend university. Her father also moved there because of a shortage of Lutheran pastors there, and he wanted to keep Christianity going in East Germany. She was a chemist, not a physicist.
bigger existential fear from climate change. Good news getting off fossil fuels
A “defensive organization” is not benign if you are the assumed enemy. I am also fascinated by the connection between the Communist Police States and the church. Catholic and not. Elizabethan England, for instance was a horrible police state very like Stasi in Germany and stalinism. The Inquisition etc. The philosophy and even method are identical
Did she say she writes for the Washington post, and the what Institute? That immediately put me on guard
"NATO is defensive organisation" Yeah right
Your bad grammar gives you away comrade!
So Finland joining an until recently run down organisation is for attacking Putin's Russia in your head?
No that would be peaceful Russia who is a victim of the world and only wants friends
Cant “do things?”
Bring on the western propaganda, as if we don't have enough.
Utterly useless and pointless comment
@@theanglianflaneurs5857 whatever
Yep, the framing of NATO as a "defensive organisation" is beyond a joke.
@@tomsimpson5449 it is though?
NATO is most certainly not a "defensive organisation". Joe, you're helping prop up the military industrial complex here.
can’t really understand all the smiling and laughing in this interview. I find it disrespectful .
... And the Nazis are being crushed again! 🇷🇺
This was really boring to listen to… I don’t know if it’s her tone but she put me to sleep
after or during your comment ?