The BUMPER ENGINE Has Some PROBLEMS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- Over a year ago, the Bumper Engine was released and seemed to be the next best Sonic fan game engine. However, I feel like there are some issues with developing stages for the engine that can make it tough to create a challenging and memorable experience. So what challenges do the Bumper Engine and other similar engines face? Let's talk about it.
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Bumper engine is fun, but it can feel really awkward with the levels that people just slap into it. With some tweaking it can be really great. Sonic GT for example is probably one of the best bumper engine fan games i've played. Really solid level design that works with the engine's strong points.
GT is one of the best ones I've seen. So yeah, there is one out there.
Sonic GT is what turned my attention towards this engine in the first place. I think we just lacked imagination and approach to sonic going the speeds he always should have been going. It totally can be done, it just needs to be open and there needs to be some awareness to how sonic can go up almost any slope. Use it to your advantage and make sure you have enough empty gaps and sheer cliffs/buildings in order to actually craft something.
Hello There Knuckles Channel ! Greedy here , the guy making Sonic GT, yes I believe you are on point on most of the problems the engine has, there are probably a few more that it's more a developer side things, Well I'd like to address some of the problems you Said on your video and how I manage them, this might help some other people to have my perspective...
1. For distance Covering and Speed, I believe the secret here is not just a massive level, but kinda the opposite, give players a burst of speed , but make it hard (NOT IMPOSSIBLE!) to keep that speed, right now in my project Sonic can run on flat ground up to 130, and max speed is 340, The normal run of the level should be a little higher than the base running , so if it is 130... it should be 150-160.
Sonic 3D Levels normally are DOWNHILL levels. this is a problem when you have SO MUCH speed, the solution for this is having Humps and long flat grounds making it harder to gain and keep speed unless you learn how to dodge obstacles , speed traps and enemies.You can see it work in Hill Top, while I give the player a HUGE speed boost at the start, you can only really keep it until you hit the Inverted U turn on the wall, if you know exactly what you are doing. the U turn Is even harder ,because it shots you straight into a speed break slope up and then a wall, making you need to "improvise" to keep it's speed. Same goes for the tunnel part, and the final stretch is mostly flat and relies on higher routes to get some speed.
2- Level Size /Time to finish is something Important, I'd say under a minute for speed run (they will probably break it and make in 30-40 seconds anyway!) , and 2-3 minutes for normal run, I'm Working on a new level that will be slightly longer than that, (looking at a 4-5 minute run, maybe 6?) but I believe anything beyond that is too much!
3- Platforming on Sonic SHOULD be possible trough speed , not the other way around.You should NOT GET speed for platforming, but you should be able to reach shortcuts thought speed, In essence knowing how to abuse Sonic speed and move-set should make you be able to do some stupid stunts, but these stunts should never feel cheap or obligatory.
4- The original Bounce is OP, I'm already on my 2º or 3º iteration of it and I'm still not satisfied with it.
5- Enemy placement is interesting, I have yet to find a good balance, I believe making enemies on sonic worth it is harder than making a good level.
6- Sonic Levels at least 3D ones always relied on pits as hazards, I don't like that I believe that the best hazard for the player in a Sonic game is to on the slowest path, have the "speed" drained of you is what makes you want to come back to the level and try to go faster, at least that my mentality making the levels.
7- Forcing sonic to perform on platforming challenges is not ideal, those are the worst part of the boost games (the 2d sections platforming), why? well mostly because what we think of platforming (aka Mario 64) is completely not suited for Sonic platforming should be tied with his speed, instead of having a classic 2 moving platforms what we need is 1 platform that forces you to spin dash at the right time maybe?(Like the gun on Mirage Saloon?!) that's one idea.....
I'd love to see you in my discord discussing level design with me, I can only see this as a Win Win Scenario :)
Anyway These are my takes on the problems. And here are a few things anyone thinking on making a game with the bumper engine should put on it's to do List:
-Make sure you optimize the Ring and Homing Controllers, they push a LOT of the CPU process in larger levels with more rings and Enemies.
-Start thinking about making a Enemy pool instead of instantiating them like is done originally , instancing is the worst performing action you can do on Unity.
Well This is all I have to say I think, Thank you for the video I enjoyed it very much and will probably put it on my must watch videos every know and them :) Cheers!
Its not exactly an issue with the engine its the people using it. For the most part the Bumper Engine is open source which means you can tweak Sonic to your liking relatively easily, the issue becomes when most fan developers just slap a level into the engine and not change anything to do with the physics to accomodate it. As you can see in the video due to it being an open world they tweaked Sonic to be a lot faster and overall more powerful to cover the distance and make it fun, where as other Bumper Engine projects, {The lazy ones that just slap inferior version of adventure levels into the engine.} Tweak nothing so the end result is the levels feeling much bigger and barren in comparison as Sonic moves at a much slower pace.
Its by no means the best engine but as we have seen with really shitty engines such as Blitz. If used properly it can be amazing, its just the fact of nobody using it to its full potential.
You know what? You're right because I played 2 other fan games with different approaches to level design. One with lots of open segments and one that is a bit more compact and the game felt exactly the same.
Something I feel fan game developers fail to realize that level design and control work together in a Sonic game. If one fails, both fails. The level design have to work with the controls of Sonic, and Sonic has to control comfortably without breaking the game or come out as sluggish, a lot of 3D fangames either creates a empty level with unorganized assets, or port a level that doesn’t work at all with the current control scheme.
I think what fans need to do is to make a level like Sonic Team would've akin to whatever game... and do some studying to understand why and how the level in question works.
Thank you for not being like "bottar then offeciel lel" and actually giving criticisms to it,I hope the creators see this and improve this engine
That is a statement that annoys me when I see fan game content or mods. Just because a person can receive praise for one level or modifying a pre-existing game, it doesn't mean they can replace an entire team.
@@GottaBeFrank absoloutly
- He said a year or so before Sonic GT and Angel Island released XD
Not saying your concerns werent valid tho, you raised a good amount of points. But we've seen GT and AI take off pretty well. They still have issues of course. But what game doesn't, right?
Yeah. One of these days, I plan on making a full video on Sonic GT. I want to know if anything in this video would still hold true. I'd have to take notes because this was in my unscripted editorial phase. Not great for remembering what I said.
Bumper Engine works fine when emphasis is put on more platforming, like in Hedge Physics test stage.
Actually, you can change Sonic's max speed in the editor itself.
i completely agree but also i like the momentum based sonic games for the speed. i think it just appeals to a different crowd of folks
I would also like to point out another problem with this engine (this isn't exclusive to bumper engine but rather every engine with hedge physics as a base) the code breaks if you try to use it in any version of unity from 2018.1 and up which means that you can't use any new feature of unity that came after that like shader graph, vfx graph, the new terrain system, lightweight/HD render pipeline, etc.
I mean I somewhat agree, but it's also open-source. The engine itself seems pretty good (the fact that it appears to handle decent graphical and logical capabilities just fine) to me, while your concern just seems to be with sonic's physics. If I understood the trailer correctly you can make Sonic any speed you want, meanwhile changing plenty of his physics to negate the various issues you pointed out - except the speed dash I guess
If that's the case, then it's a shame that developers don't tweak the engine to fit the level they make.
@@GottaBeFrank Why would they need to if it is open-source tho? I would think that the main levels of an open-source engine would usually be like proof-of-concept stuff. I understand the criticism, and ty for the reply btw, but I don't see them as major problems if they're meant to be modded in the first place
I'm guessing your thoughts have changed after Sonic GT came out? :)
Not really. I've played a more recent version, but they have issues of their own.
@@GottaBeFrank Well, the Bumper Engine is Open Source. Wich means most of the problems you talked about in the video start to lose thier validity.
Currently, I am trying to create my own sonic engine and I am trying to get the physics spot on. So I love videos like this that critique other popular engines. It is way better than the youtubers that just say, "Wow this is great, a lot of effort must have gone into this it is the perfect fan game". Keep it up man, you're doing great.
Its been a year since this video has been uploaded, and now people know how to use the engine right, for example sonic gt pushes the bumper engine to its limits and all have to admit that Sonic GT is an amazing fan game and there others like that and yes I know this is an old topic but still...
GT is an example on how to design good levels around the engine, for the most part. Aside from that, I haven't seen anything else come close to it.
As other people have mentioned, since Bumper is open-source, the real issue at hand is a lack of proper development on games that use the engine. I'm gonna copy what others have already said and agree that most developers simply slap a level into the editor and call it a day without giving any thought into how to tweak the physics to accomodate the level. It may not so much be problems inherent to the Bumper engine, but problems inherent to fan game development in general.
What I think the community really is lacking at this point is a strong grasp of what 3D Sonic level design should be and how the physics interact with it. For 2D fangames, obviously we have had great developers like Whitehead and Feperd who put the time into analyzing those mechanics and essentially creating the formula, and we have the 2D Sonic Physics Guide as the fruits of that labor. What we don't have is a strong grasp on 3D physics and level design for Sonic, no guide, because we haven't yet received a good model from official avenues. It's been up to us to figure that out.
The good news is that I think we're approaching the paradigm shift here soon. Amazing projects like Utopia, Project Hero, Sonic GT, and the open-source Infinity engine have been raising the bar and setting a standard for 3D Sonic physics and level design that I hope more people start to use or take inspiration from them to better our fan games as a whole.
I do want to thank you, Knuckles, for making these videos, because since that bar is being raised, we need to raise our level of expecations for Sonic fan games and not settle for anything less. We won't get there without discussions and criticisms like these.
I guess you do have a point. Hopefully we do have that one fan game that can execute a great 3D experience.
Or tweak the level to accommodate the physics. Or both.
MY TU WROTE THE BIBLE
I feel like the problems are 50/50 split between the framework itself and the developers that use it. While Bumper does have questionable physics and stiff control, a degree of fault also lies on the developers for rarely, if at all, adjusting the physics and control. Like most people don't get that it's OPEN SOURCE so they just use it as is rather than making an effort to modify it.
I think there's only like two or three Bumper games out there that actually make an effort to modify and improve the framework, everyone else just throws sonic in a terrain or poorly ported level and calls it good.
I'm really glad somebody decided to bring these issues to the forefront. It's definitely something I've noticed when looking at Sonic GT, which itself is probably the best use of the engine and showcases general level design principles that I think really live up to the classics. So while I want to applaud Sonic GT for that, I am bothered by certain aspects of it, which I think are mostly due to the Bumper Engine. Sonic's general floatiness and his ability to bypass huge swaths of a level using something as simple as a ramp is, in my eyes, a pretty big flaw. And while Sonic GT utilizes this attribute of the engine in its favor, it leads to speedruns that are more about flying than they are about running, which just feels kinda off for a game about a character whose defining characteristic is being able to run fast. It also de-incentivizes level designers from putting as much care into the geometry of the terrain itself, which should be fun to run on. But if you can just jump over all of it, then why bother making the terrain itself interesting?
Perhaps the fact that the engine is open source will allow people to tweak the parameters of the physics to make it feel more appropriate for Sonic levels that adhere more closely to precedents set by the classic games and stuff like Adventure 1 & 2, but for now, the closest I've seen are Utopia and Project Hero, both of which use their own custom physics and aren't open-source, which means people who aren't as adept at programming have no means of exploring level design unless they use something like Bumper Engine, which as you've mentioned, doesn't really promote great level design-at least not without extensive alteration.
And the unfortunate reality is that people who are skilled programmers aren't as likely to also be skilled level designers, which means that the pool of potential creators who can further the exploration of 3D Sonic level design is incredibly small. I feel like having a balanced team is an absolute necessity, and it's one of the reasons I have the most faith in Sonic Utopia right now, even if I prefer Project Hero's movement.
How did you got Frontiers early
i think slowing sonic down a bit may help and increast his turning speed and changes some cammra angles
The thing is that both sega AND the fanbase have been focusing too much on speed and too little on platforming
I could not agree more.
Is there not a public top speed variable? I haven't downloaded this yet but I would expect things like speed to have a public variable that could be adjusted to fit the individual project but, hey.
Here's an idea: Replace the bounce with the stomp. Problem solved
Did open zones before Frontiers.
The Bumper Engine aims to go for the Adventure Style (Obviously), but looking at this footage and Hill Top Zone in Sonic GT... it's like a Boost Game without the Boost. And to me... that's kind of contradictory when you take the Boost vs. Adventure debate into consideration. You might as well have the Boost to begin with because GT looks to be more about the speed than the platforming or the exploration factor that's in SA1 to 06.
I think what fans need to do is to make a level like Sonic Team would've akin to whatever game... and do some studying.
Can you cap Sonic's speed in this engine? Because making Sonic unnable to go above a certain speed outside of specificscenarios could work. It is possible to make linear instead of open levels, right? Maybe a Mirror's Ege kina game could be interesting, in a city in the sky, you have to clear the map as fast as you can, an the ennemies are able to chase you and block your roads an other hyper agressive behaviors like GTA cops but able to go almost as fast as Sonic himself.
Have you seen the Project Hero engine?
Yes I have. It has some promise, but I wont know until I see some levels designed for it.
@@GottaBeFrank I really want to try it out. It has some pretty cool features to it.
NO DUDE ITS GETTING ALOT BETTER IT EVEN HAS BOOST GAME CALELD HEDGE PHYSICS RIVAL THE GAME WHERE YOU CAN GET A EXPLORATION OF A NEW WORLD!!!!
As someone making a game with this particular framework, thank you for this video! I'm gonna use this as some form of guideline, just to help with the direction I'm taking my project in. The LAST thing I want to do is make a huge field level with no real goal or direction- instead, making a playground with a bunch of things to run around in repetitively to add replayability could possibly benefit the framework games.
Level design has to work with the movesets themselves when designing, well, any game. And Sonic, especially in fangames/fan frameworks, is the most important.
Does anyone know what happened to Supersonic68's Channel?
i kind of thought that this was a tutorial, but when I saw that it was you I forgot what I was doing and got instant nostolgia
I’d like to say that this is a design challenge that doesn’t come from the engine but rather the idea of using high speed momentum in a 3D plane. All that means is that this requires a new kind of level design that explores Sonic’s mechanics while challenging the player, rather than any changes to the engines themselves. I like looking at these engines; they’re so exciting. I just really wish people would put a considerable amount of time into making something that works for them.
Classic Sonic Games: _Platformer i am... i excel at that_
Boost Era: _NO TIME TO TALK!!! GOTTA GO FAST!!! VUUUUUSH_
Well... 3D games... i want to make some in the future and, if i get to make sonic fangames i'll use some sort of speed limit controled by the player.
V1 - Walking fast or Slow running
V2 - Sprinting speed ( normal speed for most characters )
V3 - Fast sprinting or Sonic's favorite
V4 - Super Peel-out speed ( triggers it by going down a slope or using the technique )
V5 - Light-Speed dash's speed ( obviously only used in light-speed dash or Red springs at "full power" ) [ all characters has different acceleration ratios... not all characters can go at Super Peel-Out speed without goind down a slope or hill so that they can trigger that speed level... also, only speed type characters can upgrade themselves to use the famou Super Peel-Out technique ]
V stand for Velocity and you can cicle through the V level you want ( example: The level is very plataform-ish? going at V4 will make you fall and scream oh no!!! go at V2 and the character will behave differently and there ya go )
Any fangamers out there? feel free to use this speed system so that the player can actualy choose the character's speed cap... credit me if you want... My name is The Brazilian Guy.
Codename Backstreet could work with this, or maybe an open world game where the goal is to get between areas of the map as quickly as possible.
Hey knuckles! I want to do a sonic fan game using this engine. I want the game to be fast like the boost games but also I want to do some exploration elements like sonic adventure. Do you have any recommendation of how to make that work???
I think the reason that the physics feel so weird is that you’re meant to change them. One of the things SuperSonic68 stressed about the engine is it’s accessibility. The physics script is extremely easy to change when you know what you’re looking for, which is also very easy to do.
This is just me, but I honestly hate the Bumper Engine. It tries to be this sort of mixture between the boost formula games and the physics engine of the Genesis classics, but because of the emphasis on speed, Sonic's gameplay gets stale in a short amount of time and also doesn't work with platforming and exploration. The controls in the Bumper Engine are always stiff and Sonic moves like a tank (same as with the boost formula games). At best, the Bumper Engine's gameplay is better suited for level design that has an emphasis on speed-racing. Sonic GT demonstrates how that's the case. Memorizing the best shortcuts in order to beat the stage in a short amount of time and also utilizing the physics in order to pull off crazy stunts is a blast.
Racing against Tails was especially the biggest highlight of that fan game. Since the Bumper Engine is built specifically with mindless speed as a focus, make it entirely a racing game. That is what it comes down to if these people want to view Sonic as simply all about speed. In terms of making anything close to a platformer, the Bumper Engine is never a good engine to use. Trying to force in platforming and exploration with the Bumper Engine (which focuses on speed) leads to a chaotic mess of a game.
Can't agree more... thanks
Doesn't help that it's just a repackaged hedgephysics
I don't think Bumper has an emphasis on speed at all. It's a pretty slow Sonic with a weak spindash and terrible neutral acceleration, he only thinks it's too fast because he's abusing the physics in that sloped map. Plop this Sonic Metal Harbor and you'd see what I mean.
Does anyone know if you can use this engine professionally like make a game and put it up for sale on steam?
You can't do that, it's illegal
This is a good critique, but I believe it has some misconceptions.
In your second point, you mentioned that Sonic is not just about speed, but platforming.
This is true, but when looking at the classic games, with the exception of Sonic 1 and CD, most of these platforming sections could be bypassed in seconds with proper utility of the games physics engine.
The point being: It's not just about platforming for difficulty, because Sonic games are extremely easy.
It's about skills mastery, and challenging the player to keep up a good flow.
The Bumper Engine does this very well as its physics mimic the classic Sonic games, which leads to a very high skill ceiling which keeps replayability high.
You also mentioned a lack of difficulty that comes with these kinds of open world games.
The problem with the argument is that even the official Sonic games are EXTREMELY easy.
The ring system makes sure that you are invincible with just 1 ring. And in the classics falling never means death, it just means you take the lower path.
Sonic never can, and never will compete with Mario, Donkey Kong, Megaman,etc in terms of difficulty because his games are too easy.
Sonic is more about replaying the game, mastering the physics, and speedrunning.
That was the inspiration behind the creation of Sonic 1 back in 1991.
In fact, Sonic GT, which makes proper use of the Bumper Engine, is by far the best 3D Sonic game ever made.
You know u can change max speed right?
How the actual shit do I get rid of the cursor on my screen while I play this
Used OBS and unchecked show cursor in the capture.
@@GottaBeFrank Wow. Well at least I got a useful answer, thanks bro XD
I've been watching this video for a minute and I already know a flaw. You said that sonic covers too much distance too quickly. Let me tell ya something. In the level creator, you can adjust sonic's speed. That is all
The only issue I have with Bumper Engine is the rails. As in I can't code in rail grinding to save my life.
What do you think of Sonic GT then? I feel like it does have a lot of platforming and multiple areas where you can get hit/crash.
I made a whole video on it. Some of the challenges are hit and miss, but going from point A to B is solid.
I think most people agree that Utopia 2016 was a mess. Iirc the devs do as well. But something that was mentioned about the engine is that they added a touch of slowness to make exploration and platforming more valid and make level construction easier. If you play GT and then Utopia, you'll definitely see that. That's not to say you can't go as fast in Utopia, but you need a REALLY good handle on the mechanics and level layouts.
EDIT: Also, Utopia's enemies are rather large, and given that the levels will be significantly less huge, I can see them being genuine enemies and not those things you run past
It's random but what do you think about sonic robo blast 2 ?
It's so-so. I do like some of the game, but the physics are a little slippery, so some deaths are on the game's engine. I know you can add wads, but a game can't be judged by the mods. It has to be judged on the unaltered game itself. I don't plan on playing it ever again.
Sonic stays in the air for too long with this engine.
In Sonic Adventure, your jumps are floaty.
@@thesupervideogamenerdmore3171
The bumper engine:
Falls at 90 degrees while moving forward.
SA:
Falls at increasing angle.
You can change the physics
@@ignShnv well then in that case its just the game, not the engine.
yumdum13 23 My point is, if you don’t like something, you can change it. For example, I am not a big fan of how turning works in BE, so I changed it by messing around with sonic’s physics.
The physics can be changed
Level structure itself is what should limit speed. Sonic should never have trouble gaining speed imo.
I honestly agree with you because as an engine it lacks what makes a Sonic game fun. Great level design and really good physics. It can really feel awkward at times with the levels people make. Sonic gets so much height with the bounce in this game, in SA2 Sonic will get a good amount of height with the bounce bracelet but here he gets too much, in fact, he gets so much that you can skip past objects, enemies and platforms that would otherwise slow the player down, skillful players would know how to avoid stuff like that but here all that challenge will be avoided with this engine's broken physics. As much work is being put in this, I don't think it can work for the main series, but it depends on how people use the engine.
I also like how you don't say "ThiS GaMe Is BeTTer tHAn OffIcIal GaMeS" because that bugs me when people think unfinished buggy fan projects are better than full official releases. In my honest opinion, Sonic World seems like the most well-polished fan game and that game has its issues. Until fans make a game with decent level design, voice acting, cutscenes, amazing gameplay, and cinematics we can't call them better than official Sonic games because they've been engines at best not full games.
Bumper Engine may have some big problems, but there’s one thing we can all agree on
It’s better than GMI
I haven't played enough GMI games to agree or disagree.
666 views... what could go wrong?
Bumper has nothing. It's so basic.
Do you know of a good 2D engine?
Diamond Wolf sonic worlds, look it up
Its a good engine
There is potential to make fun levels with it, but there is also potential to drop the ball and make something forgettable.
Nice on, remember me knuckle?
ONE OF THE FIRST love your vids by the way
...first