Were Sauron and Saruman truly allies?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- In this video, we look at Sauron and Saruman's alliance. How did they help each other, how did they hinder each other, and were they truly allies?
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Sauron's "We will meet again soon" comment to Pippen after finding out his true identity is one of the creepiest lines in the LOTR.
Saruman knows that Sauron knows that Saruman is lying. Same, bestie!
Ngl I had to rewind that part several times lol
aNd ThEy WeRe RoOmAtEs
This is by far the best Tolkien TH-cam site.
I wonder if Sauron and Saruman knew each other from their days under Aule, I believe that may be one of the things Sauron had in mind when seeking to ally with Saruman, but unlike Melkor was with Sauron, a master that Sauron admired, respected, feared and idolised, Saruman desired to take Sauron’s place and succeed him as Dark Lord or as something similar. I like how snarky Sauron is when he believes he is speaking to Saruman through the Palantir when Pippin uses it. He seems genuinely disappointed and upset by Saruman’s betrayal, it’s more likely it’s because he suspects Saruman has the Ring and may be seeking to challenge him with it, but I like the idea that Sauron saw Saruman as a potentially great ally, out of a sense of kinship due to their history as colleagues.
I would describe it as 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally, at least for now.' Now, if Saruman had truly been willing to take the role that Sauron had as Morgoth's lieutenant, things would have likely not gone well for the Free Peoples.
Yep. For one, Sauron would've learned about the Shire sooner.
What is ironic is that Saurons war strategy was based on Saruman and he wouldnt attack Gondor that early if he knew Saruman would fail in his counqest of Rohan. Saruman taught he was being clever but Gandalf had already discovered his true intentions after the last meeting of the White Council and declared that Saruman became the servant of Sauron unknowingly. There is an echo of Feanor . In the end both Saruman and Feanor served Dark Lords unintentionally not to mention they were both obsessed with shiny telepathic stones and both of them served Aule aka the biggest impostor in Valinor xd
Yeah, Aule's Maiar and worshippers seemed to be the more corruptible types. Sauron, Saruman, Feanor, stumpy mountain men...
@@J4R0D That's one of Tolkien's underlying themes, the desire to create is considered very important but also very dangerous. Even Aule once defied Iluvatar's will via the creation of the dwarves and he is one of the mightiest and most important Valar (he forged the land of Ea and created the chains that would bind Morgoth). In Tolkien's view, the power to create is the ultimate power, only truly possessed by Iluvatar via the Secret Fire, so it is no surprise some of the most powerful beings ever would greatly desire it but any craftsman or creator needs to be very careful so that their desire to imitate that power does not go so far as to try to surpass or disregard to plan of Iluvatar like Melkor, Feanor, Sauron or Saruman did, because in the end that will be futile and only cause more suffering before the plan is fulfilled. In the end Aule admits his mistake and accepts Iluvatar's judgment, but only because his wisdom and understanding of Iluvatar is inherently greater due to his nature as a Vala, his students don't share that same kind of understanding so they tend to go down the wrong path and use the knowledge they gained from serving Aule in a way that goes against the wisdom of the Valar.
@@J4R0D I think someone needs to tap Aule on the shoulder.
Do you think Saruman, even with the Ring, could have posed a serious threat to Sauron? I ask this because Sauron has far more resources and bigger armies, but was Saruman's thinking that if he were to claim the One Ring, then the forces of Mordor would flock to his banner instead?
A Saruman in possession of the one ring essentially corrupts Sauron's armies and servants to his side and probably even gains a great deal of power over Sauron himself. Everything built with the power of the ring also comes under Saruman's control; he can for example just topple the dark tower, because it is built with the power of the ring and only holds because of it.
@@MajinOthinus No he can toople Dark tower if he ever achieves the mastery of the ring. Tolkien said only Gandalf the White could have done this although it must be said Saruman may have defeated him with larger armies because Tolkien said Galadriel and Elrond would have done the same thing
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 I’m pretty sure Tolkien was talking about Gandalf the Grey in his letter about Gandalf being ringlord. Gandalf as ringlord would have been far worse than Sauron because he would have been righteous but self-righteous and made good seem evil. So if Gandalf the Grey with the ring against Sauron was, in Tolkien’s own words "a close-run thing" then it seems to me Saruman the White with the Ring would have gained the mastery there.
@@kirtmanwaring3629 He was not talking about Gandalf the Gray he said with the power of the one ring at his side, only Gandalf would be able to cast down Sauron and even then there would be a delicate balance. In the beggining of the letter Tolkien talks about if Frodo would be able to control Nazgul at Mount Doom. Simply going by chronology he should be talking about Gandalf the White but I might be wrong
The "Gandalf as Ring-Lord" letter implies that any "creature of the same order" to Sauron (the Maiar) had at least a hope of overthrowing Sauron by mastering the Ring. At least Gandalf did (as the White or Grey wizard is not indicated). Even the greatest of elves (including Galadriel) explicitly can't conquer the Ring (though it would deceive them into thinking they could). But it's reasonable to conclude that Saruman and Durin's Bane, both Maiar themselves, had at least a chance like Gandalf did.
But I also feel this is a process of time and will -- of bending the Ring's fragile loyalty from its true master to its bearer. Saruman might have mastered it, had he quietly secured it sometime after the events of The Hobbit (but well before the Nazgul rode out). With time on his side, he might have succeeded in supplanting Sauron and becoming the new Lord of the Rings. This would have been as catastrophic to Sauron as if the Ring had been destroyed.
Even with Sauron utterly defeated, it seems "[the Ring] would have been the master in the end." As this was in reference to Gandalf as Ring-Lord, it's ambiguous if the Ring's "victory in the end" was through Gandalf's corruption (for he would make "good detestable and seem evil") or if it would come to literally dominate his mind (with the Ring, and Sauron's evil within, as a sort of entity unto itself). So it's not quite clear if Saruman would have been conquered by the Ring in the long term, or simply if its worked would endure under his reign (though Saruman was already evil, and so would have committed to similar works himself).
Regardless, the White Wizard had no such time. With Sauron coiled to strike the Free Peoples, and with all of his allies knowing his betrayal, the hourglass was already empty. He would have no choice to wield it to save himself (from Sauron, from the Ents, and from the Free People). Using his hubris and lust for power, the Ring would have deceived him and he would inevitably, one way or another, deliver it to its rightful master.
Saruman was doomed from the moment he betrayed Gandalf, for I doubt he could hope to master the Ring so quickly, nor to defeat the armies of those he betrayed by force.
4:03 The 1981 BBC Radio adaptation of Lord of the Rings does a good job of portraying the encounters between the Ringwraiths and both Saruman and Wormtongue.
Just discovered your channel. Excited to see more of the content you've already released and will continue to in the future
How do you think it would play out in future events if castimir and his sons WON the Gondorian civil war?
hmmm... good question
The Witch King may have never lost Angmar
The video was so funny in some parts 😆 "Conversation between the two would have been quite awkward"
Sauron held Saruman in utter contempt. But being shrewd the Lord of The Rings decided to use Saruman rather than destroy him. He could be useful in the quest to find Shire and Bilbo. Like Morgoth, Sauron tolerated no partners. Only at best a lieutenant which Saruman's treachery destroyed. Both lusted after the one ring. So an alliance was out of the question from the onset.
So, could you do a video on "what is magic in Middle-Earth?" Every time I hear the line, regarding the Nazgul, of them becoming great kings, Warriors, and sorcerers, I whine that none of them feel like mages. Beyond that, there is obviously magic, even beyond 3-5 specific Wizards, in Middle Earth, though some of it might be "special abilities" of individuals, such as Elves. I'm not looking for hard magic, bur we don't seem to see "regular wizards" anywhere, but then they also don't freak at the simple idea that such people exist, wherever their magic comes from? So, King Theoden, or Steward Denethor, don't have court mages, and there aren't places of learning, but what is magic, in Middle Earth?
Sauron: they don t know that we know they know we know
Saruman: oh ffs
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Gandalf provides best advices: "if u are going to betray, don't let them know multiple times"
Thus often shall a traitor betray himself and do good he does not intend.
Sums up Sauron and Saruman's backstabbing alliance.
Quick honey, Darth Gandalf uploaded another banger!
Could Melkor corrupt the race of men into monsters like the elves? What new monster would they be?
In his later writings, Tolkien was changing the origins of orcs to be Men and not Elves.
Doubling down on mistakes and refusing to admit they were wrong, and/or accept responsibility and negative consequences, one of the worst habits humanity has.
I think it's a very easy question. I don't think Sauron would ever TRULY ally himself with anybody. He seaks total control, always. Saruman has put himself in kind of a squeeze and knew that he must uphold an alliance until he has the Ring. But no, neither Saruman nor Sauron would and could never truly enter any kind of alliance. There would always be the wish to have all the power and never share it. As both of them are highly intelligent and know each other quite well, they would be very aware of this.
To be fair, Saruman wasn't that ineffective. Without him delaying Sauron's search, the Nine would have gotten the One Ring directly from an unprepared Frodo in Hobbiton! And after that, his Orcs got three people from the Fellowship. A kinda random Balrog got one, and Sauron got zero.
They were about as much Allies as Germany and Japan were in World War 2. Same enemies but didn’t care much for each other. Eventually would become enemies had they succeeded in their conquests.
That's a good example.
@@DarthGandalfYT thank you!
I was thinking Stalin and Hitler.
@@BrettCaton not really. Stalin and Hitler went to war eventually. Sauron and Saruman did not.
Not Allies, master and servant. And Saruman thought they were allies.
Not quite correct, although the movies do make it seem like that. They were allies of convenience to destroy the Free Peoples, but beyond that they had their own aims and did not trust each other in much capacity.
@@DaBIONICLEFan something like Germany and Japan. Different believes but the same enemy.
Sauron never considered Saruman an ally, he used him as a puppet to weaken Rohan.
In time, even if Saruman didn’t get the one ring and didn’t betray Sauron, he would have been enslaved then corrupted like the Nazgûl or the mouth of Sauron.
Didn't want to ruin that 420 like number, but deserved like.
As creative as JRR Tolkien was, why tf did he give the two villans such similar names?
Tolkein had a finite amount of brain power. He spent 90% of it creating languages, 9% creating plotlines, and had but 1% left when making up names. Don't believe me? Look at the stupid dwarves in The Hobbit - they all sound the same.
I'm not sure if that question was ever brought up with Tolkien. Saruman's name was deliberate though; it's Old English that can roughly be translated into "someone that is skilled with devices".
That scene is alsow one of my favorite 😂😮
Think big obvious large things. Harder to lose. Silly Ancient Beings.
Video sujestion:Were the dunedain of arnor and gondor and the elves allyes for most of the thired age?
Saruman is still plotting against Sauron as previously, and he was already going against the council and doing evil stuff, so what did the influence of Sauron through the Palantir change about Sauman?
We're not entirely sure as we rarely get Saruman's perspective, and we're unsure of his exact intentions during his period of isolation in the lead up to the War of the Ring. I'd say the biggest change is this - pre-corruption, Saruman is opposed to Sauron, but is secretly betraying the Free Peoples. Post-corruption, Saruman is opposed to the Free Peoples, but is secretly betraying Sauron.
They didn't trust each other
Rings of power review video maybe?
It’s trash, who cares
While Saruman will attack Rohan, Sauron will attack Gondor, and Morgoth will attack Literally Everyone
I have a question. How does evil magic work in Tolkiens works?
There are two types of magic in Tolkiens works.
First one is magia and second is goeteia. Neither of them are evil or good from the start and it is only purpose or the techniques of the magic user that shapes their allignment. Power is a neutral concept in Legendarium.
Magia is a more “showy” magic. Magia users, according to their stature and authority,can lay mountains broken or create fire,mists and empathy. Magia is a rather fast use of magic and the users can be addicted to it ,resulting in their weakening. Magia is generally used by good guys although as I said evil side also uses it. Best examples of magia users should be Morgoth or Gandalf.
Goeteia is a more subtle magic. User can use it to make others feared , inspired or deceive they can use it to further their skills and to commune with dead. Goeteia is more preferred by the evil side although elves also uses it. Goeteia requires less personal energy although results of it are not that fast or flashy. Best practioner of goeteia is certainly Sauron.
When used in evil work;magic can be used in many different ways. Morgoth created the race of orcs through twisted magic, Sauron deceives people and corrupts their thoughts with using Unseen Realm and rings of power, Nazgul are so terrible, they cause the bravest soldiers of
Men to suicide out of sheer fear. In more flashy side, Sauron used his hands to burn down people and he can even throw bolts of fire, Witch King can cause avalanches and manipulate Ice, Dragons can wipe the minds of their victims and Morgoth can use it to curse people and manipulate their fate in an extent. If you are interested I can post Tolkiens thoughts and writings about it.
I wonder if they ever sent each other noodz.
Unfortunately, Sexy Sauron no longer existed by that point so we'd have to assume that he was too insecure to send noodz.
@@DarthGandalfYT you're probably right. I wouldn't put it past Saruman, though.
0:04
sauron anf bombadil were actually allies
Sauron has no allies. He has slaves. Saruman was an unwilling slave.
It’s definitely more complicated than that