Middle-earth Mysteries - The Dead Marshes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
- In this video, we look at the Dead Marshes, and discuss how they might have become haunted, and who might have been responsible for it.
Soundtrack - The Old Pumpkin Patch by Darren Curtis
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And as far as these marshes being influenced by Tolkien's experience in the Somme... Yeah, it really adds up.
I'd even argue that the Wood-Elves getting decimated at the Black Gate due to a rash charge may have been inspired by the British offensive at the Somme on July 1st, 1916. Over 57 thousand men, mostly young recruits, were killed in a single day, making it the deadliest day in British army history.
I think the 57000+ number is total British casualties and fatalities amounting to about a third of that figure. Either way, a devastating loss.
If the Wood-Elves were the British at the Somme, would that make Gil-galad and the Noldor the French?
Uuuuuh, I don't know, I assumed the Men of Dunland were the French
@@istari0
You are correct.
The number of dead is usually reckoned at around 20,000, which is still an horrendous loss
@@DarthGandalfYTthat would make sense considering the British and Americans were pissed to be placed under the command of Ferdinand Foch towards the end of the war. Foch was the supreme commander of all allied forces and that kind of pissed off the other countries
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Sylvan elves who have never seen the light of Valinor might have avoided the summons of Mandos out of fear of the unknown. They had no real idea of what they were being summoned to. So they lingered on in Middle Earth as spirits, again, probably not knowing the danger in doing that. The first time I read The Passage of the Marshes I got a tremendous sense of sadness from it. And you've summed it up. Immortal beings ending up trapped and held in a stinking swamp. Though why men and especially orcs would be part of this eternal trap is puzzling to me. But it would have suited Sauron to have this really nasty barricade, because, as we all know, "One cannot simply walk into Mordor."
That piece of land was named "Wetwang" after Sauron's fond memories of Angbang.
Truly this is deep lore.
Hmm... So Sauron gets moist from death and destruction? Well a dark lord needs to get his jollies in somehow.
@@skatemetrix He also has a thing for humidity in general. Might explain why he remained on Númenor during its downfall
@@LeHobbitFan Sauron remained in Numenor because he was an arrogant evil douche who did not expect the land to be obliterated.
Technically Sauron is a mega femboy. So maybe Ang bang and Ang's wang was whet.
Maybe Ang left bc Sauron was too high maintenance.
@@LeHobbitFan Joe Manchad
The scene of the Dead Marshes in Jackson’s films is very well done. The only issue I have is that it’s all shown in broad daylight.
*I, in contrast, love marshes, I think they have a charm. And the Dead Marshes were one of my favorite parts of LoTR, so atmospheric! They felt eerie for obvious reasons, but also safe, because no one else would find the Hobbits there, and Gollum knew the path.*
We don't want to forget the part that actual marsh gases played in this. Methane and carbon dioxide are powerful and deadly and can cause hallucinations due to oxygen deprivation. I'm sure Sauron was well aware of this and encouraging the myth would play in his favor. Why more here than other parts of the marsh? More organic matter decomposing here, even after several thousand years. Enslaving the restless, if possibly harmless spirits, would only add to the effect. Remember, this is part of the outer defenses of Mordor.
Science as an explanation? I like it.
I could see a good short story in the idea of someone who lost a loved one in those initial battles who then goes to The Dead Marshes upon hearing about the spirits there, looking for the ghost of their lost person.
Marshes, bogs and swamps have traditionally been associated with the supernatural, as they are places where the boundary between life and death has appeared to be thin - the rotting, dead, partially submerged matter and the hidden depths made this association easy. Otherwise known as 'liminal' places.
I've seen several videos about how the Brown Lands used to be the gardens of the Entwives until Sauron destroyed them in the 2nd or 3rd Age, the deaths of all the Elves, Men, and Orcs on the battlefield plus the deaths of so many of the Entwives is probably the biggest contributor to the haunting of the Dead Marshes
What if the dead marshes are a kind of lesson on how to make a place scary for the witch-king (and maybe the other Ringwraiths), with Sauron being the teacher
The dead marshes were always fascinating to me
The fascinating marshes were always dead to me.
Take a look in the pool, and what do you see?
In the dark depths, there faces beckoning me.
Can't you see them? It's plain for all to see.
They were there. Oh, I know you don't believe me.
I've always felt Iron Maiden was inspired by the Dead Marshes when they wrote the song Still Life. Yes, I know they say it is about the Inhabitant of The Lake, but it sounds so similar to the chapter about the marshes.
To me I think if Sauron did use his dark magic. He would have for sure had Orc spirits there too haunting the dead marshes.
That depends on the origin of Orcs. If Orcs were corrupted animals, they wouldn't have spirits. If Orcs were corrupted Men, their spirits would immediately leave the world, and therefore could not be enslaved. If Orcs were corrupted Elves, then Sauron might be able to enslave them.
@@DarthGandalfYT Personally believe they were mostly elves. But some mixed with men. On the origins of Orcs. But it is interesting. My favorite quote is were the ancient Orcs were described by elves as Demons.
Don't laugh at Wetwang, there's a real one in North Yorkshire near Driffield, it's got a good chippie.
Next in Middle-earth Mysteries - what was causing Darth Gandalf to almost break into laughter at the end of this video? You can hear the laugh bubble try to break free @10:40. :)
Morbid laughter I guess.
Sauron could also capture the spirits of men and turning them into wraiths.
A Morgul knife would turn anyone into a wraith. I assume that Sauron created the Morgul knifes.
The witch king threatened Eowyn with the "houses of lamentation" and then later being turned into a wraith.
It's a bit different with Men. Upon death, the spirits of Men immediately depart to the Halls of Mandos, and then leave the world, so they can't be trapped by dark magic. The thing with the Nazgul and other wraiths is that they aren't actually dead; their spirit is still there, but the body is invisible. If the Dead Marshes was haunted with those types of wraiths, then they should've had the ability to physically attack and kill Frodo.
@@DarthGandalfYT I disagree. They are clearly not living. Their bodies are long gone. They are essentially ghosts that are trapped by evil magic. They are similar to the dead men of Dunharrow. The only difference is the manner of how they are turned into ghosts and that the Nazgul trapped by Sauron. Sauron has enabled the Nazgul to interact with the living and phsyical things, otherwise they would be completely powerless. In Eowyns case her "flesh shall be devoured" and her "shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye". Gandalf on Nazgul "just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living". After the ford of Rivendell Gandalf says "Yet i think that we may hope now that the ringwraiths were scatttered and have been obliged to return as best they could to their master, empty and shapeless.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Does this mean that "The Dead Men of Dunharrow" are also still alive?
@@alanpennie8013 Their case is special. They are bound by a curse that keeps their spirits from passing on, but all evidence suggests that they are physically dead.
Drywang I imagine is a very painful condition.
Banger after banger after banger!
I have been binge watching everything i could find on YT made by you and it ranges from very good to totally awesome.
Well done and thank you for you great work.
Best wishes to you brother.
There seems to be a misunderstanding. It's not only Sauron who is able to send undead to haunt a place. The barrow-wights were sent by the leader of the Nazgul, not Sauron, so he is capable of doing that too.
Wow that threw me when I first heard u say Disaster of the Morannon & 1944. I, of course, was thinking of the Battle of Morannon during the War of the Ring...so it confused me for a moment. I now have a new topic to read about. I was not familiar with this Wainriders battle in the Dead Marshes.
Thank you! Your attention to detail is always compelling, and always makes me break out the books & start reading again!
Bro i always get very excited when i see that you have uploaded a video, just want you to now that your videos are so fucking good!! Keep it up!
I would say that you have come up with quite a reasonable theory as to the Dead Marches. Congratulations on your research and efforts.
You never fail to educate me! I really need to get my hands on The History of Middle Earth collection so I can actually call myself an expert.
I wouldn't be suprised if the Witch King made the Dead Marshes they way they were as a test bed for the Barrow Downs.
Your videos ask the most interesting questions.
Damn almost 11k now, you are breezing through the subs lol
I've thought for some time that once you get past the different topographies, there were a lot of similarities between the two.
Great video
this is the most disturbing location
Just something about it... aside from the obvious
_Morgoth's Ring_ also mentions that the elvish spirits refusing the summons to Mandos itself signifies taint of the shadow. Compare that to what it says about the Lingerers, the elves who chose not to travel into the West. They still have their bodies although their physical forms have mostly been consumed by their spirits in the later ages. They can reveal themselves and there is no mistaking them for houseless spirits because "the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit."
I thought ghostly marsh/swamp lights are called wisps and will-o-the-wisps and fairy lights, with corpse candles historically being those candles made of 'corpse tallow' (human fat). Or is 'the term corpse candles' used in the LotR books themselves?
Darth. I've shared this around a bit..
But I've did some thinking myself..
I've been thinking about the possible scenario of the what if numenor used its full resources to conquer me.
Phase one if forces are not already complete.
Immediate naval blockade of Lindon.
Landing troops in the old site of Lond daer. To make camps between what would've been THARBAD to down to the mouth of the river.
To 'siege' eriador and the elves, middle men and faithful numenorians living in the area.
At same time id construct the equivalents of isengard and helms deep till in their relevant places to prevent flank attacks by greenwood and lorien.
Phase two
Immediately gather my colonies at umbar and to the south and my client states to muster a large force of arms to march north and pacify the area known as gondor to fight the faithful there. Using my fleet to provide naval support and eventually reinforcements from numenor to destroy and capture the faithful ports..
Phase three.
March north and fight lorien.
Essentially to destroy the forest to prevent places to hide.
These are the forces of king amdir.
Any survivors might flee to greenwood, imladris and if they are friendly to the dwarves which I'm not sure about, khazad dum.
Then in a reverse of the last alliance March from north to south, id go to south to north for the passes leading to imladris to attack the flank. While that goes on, my forces south of eriador will after receiving steady reinforcements, would march north across the river.
Split into three prongs.
Phase four
One prong will head to Lindon proper to pin down reinforcements, while supplied by the fleet. The center prong with cleanse the area which would've become arnor to wipe out the elves, and faithful and enslave the middle men.
The right flank would join up with the army that secured, (gondor and Rohan and lorien) and attack the rear of any elven forces and survivors who fled to imladris.
Once Elrond and any force is gone, both armies to join the middle prong to reform and join the left prong holding down Lindon.
Phase four.
Full scale assault on the borders of Lindon to the Grey havens.
Long bloody campaign since escape is impossible thanks to my numenorian fleet.
Then besiege the havens and assault it on one flank and a second flank like a d day style landing with reinforcements from the south and additional from numenor.
Phase five
The Eldar are gone, the faithful are gone.
Spend a few years resupply and securing everything west of the anduin river.
When time is right go full force including a repeat of lorien on a grandeur scale on the kingdom of greenwood and the realms of men to the east.
I don't know if the dwarves can be conquered or if all halls and Dwarven kingdom's can be taken.
Maybe the ones in the blue mountains and iron hills.
Unlikely khazad dum and erebor.
Maybe the gray mountains?
What do you think Darth Gandalf?
Possible?
Long campaign?
The pros and cons?
And feedback is good
😉👍
A very interesting scenario and one I have wondered about from time to time. About what time in the 2nd Age do you have this happening and what do you see Sauron and his forces doing? I think he'd launch an attack on the Númenóreans during the latter phase of their war with the elves, dwarves, middle men, and the faithful. The latter would be worn down enough to no longer be a major threat but still dangerous enough that they could not be ignored.
@@istari0
Thanks man 👍
I see it as two possibilities.
Remember the forces of Lorien and greenwood were not the best under their kings as shown by the war of the last alliance.
The only real Power was khazad dun and Lindon under gilgalad
.
So two possibilities. Option, during the reigns of the 18th and 23rd kings of numenor when they started to use the AR prefix and went bad.
Option two the AR pharazon the last king of numenor.
The first option Saurons forces were rebuilding. The latter option his forces fled but were not destroyed.
Either way he could hunker down.
Like you said attack the numenorians after their war with Middle earth While they were weakened.
Still he had no means to get his forces to numenor so I think he would still go their and corrupt them to attack Aman.
What about the paths of the dead? Cursed by Isildur....
Nice lore bro, love your misterys videos keep it up!
I guess they were haunted, i dont know if from Sauron or from natural causes... Silvan Elves actually didnt want to leave ME... and its curious that in the Dagor fight it was Silvan Elves that were driven to the marshes.. seem legit xd
Yorkshire has a village in the East Riding called Wetwang. And no, I'm not making it up. 😊
Edit: when Tolkien was based at the University of Leeds, he and his family had holidays at Filey on the east Yorkshire coast. Back then, the railway went through Wetwang.
The more the Barrow-Wights are explained, the less frightening they are. Tolkien would have been better served if there was a suggestion that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, the souls of those men were NOT allowed to pass out of Arda. Maybe they swore some kind of evil oath in their desperation -- maybe that they would not find rest until the Witch-King was dead, something like that. If they have NO connection to the barrows or to those there entombed, they may be evil, but they are not, really, so scary.
Tolkien was a master of world-building. Horror, however, is about world-DESTROYING, showing that the rules of reality are NOT what you might have suspected, but something very different -- worse, uglier, and above all, UNKNOWN.
Well, we know that Sauron is very good at creating phantoms & wraiths when it suits his purposes.....as we saw with Gorlim the Unhappy & the visions of his wife that he kept seeing. Likewise, we know that the Witch King had control over Wights.....suggesting some power over death as well.
well strategically the dead marshes are to the detrement of sauron, since they restrict his possibility for troop movement
When is the next live stream?
Regarding the theory, I would say that is is the highest possibility and likelihood, in which only Tolkien's word could make it more or less likely. Since he no longer lives, it may not be fully proven, but it is likely not to be disproven.
I've been waiting for this one. I disagree with you opinion of marshes though. I find them fascinating and cozy.
Can you talk about procreation of elves and dwarves. Since Tolkien was very Catholic. Do you think he viewed sex 4 Judy procreation? Since Elves naturally lived long lives. Curious what you think?
Just procreation not "Judy". Lol
Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.
Meh, we've got the Dead Lakes in Wewahitchka.
that's the thing about peatmarshes... things don't rot away, - even for millennia
wetwang, please
based darth is based
SCP-2316 might be partcially inspired by this fictional haughted place. As it says "I don't recognize the bodies in the water."
Amber Heard rules The Browned Bedlands