Would you guys consider doing a tutorial game or on depth battle report for Force on Force? I know I would really benefit as even after reading through the book a few times I'm still confused on a many of the nuances involving reactions and reactions to reactions etc. It seems like a great ruleset but it's a hard one to learn without a teacher in my opinion.
it's disappointing that it's out of print but they do have the original Ambush Alley on their website as a PDF for $10 and that game does seek more like my speed so I was pleased to pick that up.
Pretty good review guys. Black Ops from Osprey is a pretty good alternative for a fast play modern game. We have been using it for playing drug wars after binge watching Narcos on Netflix.
Not a bad review. Once you mentioned the mechanics, it reminded me of an earlier tabletop war-game: Stargrunt 2 by Ground Zero Games, published in 1996. It used the dice types stated below for the different quality of troops. D4: Yellow (Untrained), D6: Green, D8: Blue (Regular), D10: Orange (Veteran),D12: Red (Elite).
I was thinking of Stargrunt II as well. From what I've read, SG II seems to be more usable with larger forces than this or it's SF cousin, Tomorrow's War. Have you played either of them?
Have you fellows reviewed Ambush Alley/Ospreys "Tomorrow's War"? I have the book and built two forces (30 infantry and 4-6 a.f.v.s) in 10 mm scale. The rule set is really different to anything I have been exposed to. The absence of a "quick start" sheet or a sheet with the play sequence and related info.reactions,casualties etc is a drawback to teaching someone who doesnt have a rulebook. Otherwise I was blown away by this rulebook.Oh ,"Force on Force " is the basis for " Tomorrow's War"
Thanks! We hate reading or watching game reviews, only to find out by the end that the reviewer "read" the rules but is "looking forward to their first game." That's ridiculous--why review a set of rules you haven't played multiple times on the table? So we only review games here that we've played extensively!
I really like Force on Force and Tomorrow's War (the sci fi version). I like to think of the mechanics as a crossbreeding of Crossfire with Stargrunt II.
Really awesome review!!! I actually agree with nearly all your points made by each person. All the positives I agree withnd all the negatives I agree with. The killers for me in this are: * No point system, you basically have to nut out scenarios all the time. It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons where you need a dungeon master to run the scenarios. Simple fix gain army lists like Flames of War. The benefit of this it can bring in tournament play which will boost the popularity of the game. * constantly having to reference rules. It doesnt seem to be logically laid out and sometimes they are in multiple areas arrrgh. * Lack of players, I just couldnt find anyone to play. *Lack of dice and counters when you buy the book. It really should be a boxed set where all the counters and dice are there to play straight away. Otherwise you have to photo copy the counters and have to send away for specific types of dice which for some reason took weeks to get to me. * Lack of support. I tried to join the websites forum but I needed to apply to join. They never got back to me with the acceptance email..... WTF. No way to join the community and get excited about it. Funny thing is I would still like to play it though. I bought a platoons worth of Aussie soldiers and a platoons worth of Taliban insurgents to duke it out. I think they need a version 2 to smarten it up a bit.
All good points, Andrew. And I think a lot of guys in our club would agree with them wholeheartedly. We are also hoping for a "version 2" that was being playtested by Ambush Alley some time ago. Let's hope it sees the light of day, because the core mechanics of this system are quite good.
I think this is the first review of yours that I've ever seen. It's also a really good review! Stargrunt II is the first system I ever used that represented troop quality with a variety of dice types. That system did that with weapons too. I'm not sure if you've plyed or looked at it but it's an older game by GZG in the UK. I'm also hoping you did a review on "Tomorrow's War" by Ambush Alley that uses the same kind of system that "Force On Force" uses. If you haven't reviewed that, I hope you do in the future. Thanks guys. I'm subbing.
Thanks, we're happy you found us! I have actually played Stargrunt before--it's been many years--and a couple guys in the club have played Tomorrow's War. We've been eagerly awaiting the long-promised, slightly simplified Ambush Alley 2. Hoping it may see the light of day at some point!
Excellent Review--but the support points were way too high. Here we are years after this review and the hard copies are still not in print and their website shows many areas empty or unavailable.
Please, please do a "how to play" or demo game for this one... it would be so wonderful as there really aren't many out there and its quite a great but hard to learn game.
Yeagh I was reading the rules again last night and I realise the game is not laid that well. Alot of words and very little example diagrams. I think what is missing is an example of the tokens that are required at the end of the book like they did with fog of war cards. You just have to print them off on a photocopier at home and I think this would help with the explaining a bit. You look at the tokens and you try and figure oht what each token does would help you understand the game a bit I reckon. Oh and they need to have a better cheat sheet so all the info is available on 2 - 3 cards.
I would agree this is a great ruleset and probably like you because I do not play it often enough find it slow. while as you say all the rules are in there my major bugbear is trying to find the rule that applies to a particular situation as they are not collected in specific groupings by eg mob=vement morale etc but spread throughout the book.
Totally agreed, Robert. It's hard to explain to someone who may not have used the rule book before, but while it is visually fantastic and has all the rules, for some reason it's not laid out in an intuitive way. We spend a ton of time flipping through multiple copies during a game looking for info. One of the guys tagged his pages with sticky notes to try and help locate frequent questions. I don't know how to explain it, except to say it's just not the easiest book to navigate during a game. Still love the rules, regardless!
I was going to ask what you guys thought about all the modern rulesets that have come out in the last five years since this review, but it doesn't sound as though Steve would be tempted! 😂 But yeah, there seem to be a lot of them around these days. Good times!
Hi Sebastien--we haven't played a ton of 1:1 Vietnam before. Mostly we are doing platoon or company level actions, but for squad level action we have used Point Blank (sold now by Brigade Games) and, of course, Force on Force for a slightly larger game. If you have any suggestions for other 1:1 games we should try in that period, we're all ears!
The front cover is similar style to Commando comics and Flames of war rule supplements. I think since you have two reviewers you should add your scores together and get the average :P so 84.5%
I own these rules and have played them once. I didn't like all of the saves with regards to hits but I am willing to give it another shot. It is just not the period we are into right now. The rulebook is way to beautiful to use in a game, however. :) I see someone is a fan of Chinese food. :D
We don't do a ton of gaming set in Vietnam, but a club favorite has always been Crossfire. The mechanics work especially well in dense terrain set-ups, and the jungles of Vietnam are well suited for those kinds of firefights.
Looking forward to a reprint, otherwise I'm looking at 'Skirmish Sangin', love to see a comparative review. Also, would you do a review of 'Chain of Command'?
We've played Skirmish Sangin a few times in the club. We will add it to the list potential systems for a video review--there's a long list we want to do! You're in luck with Chain of Command, as we already did a review last month. You can check it out here: th-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=G6gEiqYopdM
Sounds like an interesting set of rules but the mechanics seem to be very similar to Stargrunt II from the 1990s. Luckily I have found free pdf copies available on Scribd. So I will give it a look. Honestly though I think I would stay with Stargrunt if I had to pay for this game.
We have not played Spectre before in the club. Is a rule set you recommend? One of the guys in our club recently suggested we try Osprey's "Black Ops" system as a point of comparison to FoF. Always looking for new games to try!
I would highly recommend both it (Spectre) and Skirmish Sangin. Spectre is more focused on small team engagements with Special Ops and Skirmish Sangin is Squad/Platoon level play with a greater emphasis each soldier being an individual with their own separate stat lines.
good review gent's, I got the rule's way back when they first came out, I myself think they are fantastic, wouldn't do Nam or Bush war's, and it's is sad that they are no longer in print, my copy's in mint condition, keep up the good work Gent's
I love your channel and the reviews. However, I think that there is a problem in making a kind of general review for games wich have a specific purpose. In this case, the criticism about the playability and its lower grade as a consequence of being a detailed and granular and hence, rules heavy game. To me, this is a design and a players choice, not something that should be graded against a general criteria. It's like judging a rpg for not being streamlined like a boardgame. I'd prefer if you'd have a review by category. Say, granulary, simulationist types on one hand and streamlined, faster games as different categories and than judge them within their proposed function. The same goes to the quantity of miniatures needed, tablesize etc. If the game is specifically designed to similute, say, a massive napoleonic or antique battle, for example, with the specific purpose of creating the visual effect of such a battle with lots of miniatures, this shouldn't be a negative point in a general criteria "playability". Rather, the game should be evaluated with this purpose in mind. For a simulation style game, comparing it to others of its genre, is it too clunky and unelegantly designed? Does it require specific miniatures not available in the market outside of a certain company? This kind of graduation within its own category. Other than that, keep up the great work and the excellent channel! Cheers!
I use Force on force for WW2 games with particular rule mods for specific nations....very entertaining indeed. Just not a big fan of the Morale rules. Bring back Force on force....(or Ambush Alley 2!)
I hate pdf's. I looked at this game before and i liked the idea but i need a hardback book for the table. They should at least do a Print on Demand option like they do with so many old school RPG games now
We very much hope Ambush Alley and Osprey bring this back into print soon, because the hardback is gorgeous. Worthy of any coffee table, for sure. The eBay prices for new/used copies can get pretty steep right now.
Would you guys consider doing a tutorial game or on depth battle report for Force on Force? I know I would really benefit as even after reading through the book a few times I'm still confused on a many of the nuances involving reactions and reactions to reactions etc. It seems like a great ruleset but it's a hard one to learn without a teacher in my opinion.
it's disappointing that it's out of print but they do have the original Ambush Alley on their website as a PDF for $10 and that game does seek more like my speed so I was pleased to pick that up.
Pretty good review guys. Black Ops from Osprey is a pretty good alternative for a fast play modern game. We have been using it for playing drug wars after binge watching Narcos on Netflix.
Thank you so much for the review. I am willing to give this rule set a try based on the mechanics.
Would love to see a review of Skirmish Sangin or Spectre: Operations!
Dave Rockefeller I second Spectre Operations
@@robsevendaysaweek and Dave Rockefeller both and the new system that was kickstarted called Ultracombat
If the criticisms of Force on Force carry over to Spectre Operations then they're going to rip it apart. That game is so poorly written and bloated.
Not a bad review.
Once you mentioned the mechanics, it reminded me of an earlier tabletop war-game: Stargrunt 2 by Ground Zero Games, published in 1996.
It used the dice types stated below for the different quality of troops.
D4: Yellow (Untrained), D6: Green, D8: Blue (Regular), D10: Orange (Veteran),D12: Red (Elite).
I was thinking of Stargrunt II as well. From what I've read, SG II seems to be more usable with larger forces than this or it's SF cousin, Tomorrow's War. Have you played either of them?
No, only Stargrunt 2
Great review ! Awesome rule set , with a huge collection of theater books. A must play game.
Oh yes, strongly recommended. Thanks for watching the review!
I'd love to see you review Skirmish Sangin by Radio DishDash Publications
Have you fellows reviewed Ambush Alley/Ospreys "Tomorrow's War"? I have the book and built two forces (30 infantry and 4-6 a.f.v.s) in 10 mm scale. The rule set is really different to anything I have been exposed to. The absence of a "quick start" sheet or a sheet with the play sequence and related info.reactions,casualties etc is a drawback to teaching someone who doesnt have a rulebook. Otherwise I was blown away by this rulebook.Oh ,"Force on Force " is the basis for " Tomorrow's War"
Great review, to many of these videos on smaller wargames are just of poor quality. Nice to see great hosts who are also knowledgeable
Thanks! We hate reading or watching game reviews, only to find out by the end that the reviewer "read" the rules but is "looking forward to their first game." That's ridiculous--why review a set of rules you haven't played multiple times on the table? So we only review games here that we've played extensively!
How is this rule set for a peer to peer fight? Like U S. V China?
Would love to see a review of 2nd Ed Pulp Alley.
I saw a Fallujah book many years ago, but just thought of it after a show was on, now I learn it is really hard to get at a reasonable price
I really like Force on Force and Tomorrow's War (the sci fi version). I like to think of the mechanics as a crossbreeding of Crossfire with Stargrunt II.
Great review guys, I would like to see a corporation between the different modern set of rules. Thank you. Cheers
Fall 2019...still sold out. Only PDF available
Sadly.
Really awesome review!!! I actually agree with nearly all your points made by each person. All the positives I agree withnd all the negatives I agree with. The killers for me in this are:
* No point system, you basically have to nut out scenarios all the time. It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons where you need a dungeon master to run the scenarios. Simple fix gain army lists like Flames of War. The benefit of this it can bring in tournament play which will boost the popularity of the game.
* constantly having to reference rules. It doesnt seem to be logically laid out and sometimes they are in multiple areas arrrgh.
* Lack of players, I just couldnt find anyone to play.
*Lack of dice and counters when you buy the book. It really should be a boxed set where all the counters and dice are there to play straight away. Otherwise you have to photo copy the counters and have to send away for specific types of dice which for some reason took weeks to get to me.
* Lack of support. I tried to join the websites forum but I needed to apply to join. They never got back to me with the acceptance email..... WTF. No way to join the community and get excited about it.
Funny thing is I would still like to play it though. I bought a platoons worth of Aussie soldiers and a platoons worth of Taliban insurgents to duke it out.
I think they need a version 2 to smarten it up a bit.
All good points, Andrew. And I think a lot of guys in our club would agree with them wholeheartedly. We are also hoping for a "version 2" that was being playtested by Ambush Alley some time ago. Let's hope it sees the light of day, because the core mechanics of this system are quite good.
It's been 4 years now. Has FoF2 came out?
I may have to break down and get this in the new year. I have not played modern warfare, but do want to give it a go.
Does anyone know where you can get the rules now? the website has expired
Sadly it is now out of print as far as we know. Very unfortunate
I've been looking for modern rules, but not having a hard copy ruleset in print is a dealbreaker for me. 5/10
I think this is the first review of yours that I've ever seen. It's also a really good review! Stargrunt II is the first system I ever used that represented troop quality with a variety of dice types. That system did that with weapons too. I'm not sure if you've plyed or looked at it but it's an older game by GZG in the UK. I'm also hoping you did a review on "Tomorrow's War" by Ambush Alley that uses the same kind of system that "Force On Force" uses. If you haven't reviewed that, I hope you do in the future. Thanks guys. I'm subbing.
Thanks, we're happy you found us! I have actually played Stargrunt before--it's been many years--and a couple guys in the club have played Tomorrow's War. We've been eagerly awaiting the long-promised, slightly simplified Ambush Alley 2. Hoping it may see the light of day at some point!
Excellent Review--but the support points were way too high. Here we are years after this review and the hard copies are still not in print and their website shows many areas empty or unavailable.
Please, please do a "how to play" or demo game for this one... it would be so wonderful as there really aren't many out there and its quite a great but hard to learn
game.
Yeagh I was reading the rules again last night and I realise the game is not laid that well. Alot of words and very little example diagrams. I think what is missing is an example of the tokens that are required at the end of the book like they did with fog of war cards. You just have to print them off on a photocopier at home and I think this would help with the explaining a bit.
You look at the tokens and you try and figure oht what each token does would help you understand the game a bit I reckon. Oh and they need to have a better cheat sheet so all the info is available on 2 - 3 cards.
I would agree this is a great ruleset and probably like you because I do not play it often enough find it slow. while as you say all the rules are in there my major bugbear is trying to find the rule that applies to a particular situation as they are not collected in specific groupings by eg mob=vement morale etc but spread throughout the book.
Totally agreed, Robert. It's hard to explain to someone who may not have used the rule book before, but while it is visually fantastic and has all the rules, for some reason it's not laid out in an intuitive way. We spend a ton of time flipping through multiple copies during a game looking for info. One of the guys tagged his pages with sticky notes to try and help locate frequent questions. I don't know how to explain it, except to say it's just not the easiest book to navigate during a game. Still love the rules, regardless!
I tried tagging my copy of battlegroup rules for quicj reference but found the tags curled up so much it just didn't work lol
The system is basically a Savage Worlds RPG system. 4+ is always a success, 1 is always a failure. Dice size for stats and skills.
Thanks guys, picked this up a little while ago and am busy painting miniatures and building terrain.
Nice review, fellas! You have convinced me to dig my copy out of storage.
I was going to ask what you guys thought about all the modern rulesets that have come out in the last five years since this review, but it doesn't sound as though Steve would be tempted! 😂
But yeah, there seem to be a lot of them around these days. Good times!
Is there an equivalent boardgame of FoF?
The reaction system sounds a little like Crossfire.
Hi. Does the rule book contain lists to play?
It does, yes!
What would be the best man on man ruleset for Vietnam War?
Hi Sebastien--we haven't played a ton of 1:1 Vietnam before. Mostly we are doing platoon or company level actions, but for squad level action we have used Point Blank (sold now by Brigade Games) and, of course, Force on Force for a slightly larger game. If you have any suggestions for other 1:1 games we should try in that period, we're all ears!
The front cover is similar style to Commando comics and Flames of war rule supplements. I think since you have two reviewers you should add your scores together and get the average :P so 84.5%
Got a set off ebay for £35 including postage, starting to read through it
Great deal! It’s a great game and a club favorite
I own these rules and have played them once. I didn't like all of the saves with regards to hits but I am willing to give it another shot. It is just not the period we are into right now. The rulebook is way to beautiful to use in a game, however. :) I see someone is a fan of Chinese food. :D
have been looking forward to this
What would you say is the best game for Vietnam then? It always seems abandoned between the modem and WW 2 games.
We don't do a ton of gaming set in Vietnam, but a club favorite has always been Crossfire. The mechanics work especially well in dense terrain set-ups, and the jungles of Vietnam are well suited for those kinds of firefights.
Looking forward to a reprint, otherwise I'm looking at 'Skirmish Sangin', love to see a comparative review. Also, would you do a review of 'Chain of Command'?
We've played Skirmish Sangin a few times in the club. We will add it to the list potential systems for a video review--there's a long list we want to do! You're in luck with Chain of Command, as we already did a review last month. You can check it out here: th-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=G6gEiqYopdM
Sounds like an interesting set of rules but the mechanics seem to be very similar to Stargrunt II from the 1990s. Luckily I have found free pdf copies available on Scribd. So I will give it a look. Honestly though I think I would stay with Stargrunt if I had to pay for this game.
Nailed it. No rulebook should be more than a price of coffee.
Great review and yes it is a great rule set. Do you guys plan on playing/reviewing Spectre: Operations?
We have not played Spectre before in the club. Is a rule set you recommend? One of the guys in our club recently suggested we try Osprey's "Black Ops" system as a point of comparison to FoF. Always looking for new games to try!
I would highly recommend both it (Spectre) and Skirmish Sangin. Spectre is more focused on small team engagements with Special Ops and Skirmish Sangin is Squad/Platoon level play with a greater emphasis each soldier being an individual with their own separate stat lines.
@@LittleWarsTV Sangin is a mixture of a wargame and add little RPG elements into the rules and you need to look at it.
Well balanced, detailed and fun review. 9 put of 10
Direct, no-nonsense review-review. 9.5/10.
good review
good review gent's, I got the rule's way back when they first came out, I myself think they are fantastic, wouldn't do Nam or Bush war's, and it's is sad that they are no longer in print, my copy's in mint condition, keep up the good work Gent's
I love your channel and the reviews.
However, I think that there is a problem in making a kind of general review for games wich have a specific purpose. In this case, the criticism about the playability and its lower grade as a consequence of being a detailed and granular and hence, rules heavy game. To me, this is a design and a players choice, not something that should be graded against a general criteria. It's like judging a rpg for not being streamlined like a boardgame.
I'd prefer if you'd have a review by category. Say, granulary, simulationist types on one hand and streamlined, faster games as different categories and than judge them within their proposed function. The same goes to the quantity of miniatures needed, tablesize etc. If the game is specifically designed to similute, say, a massive napoleonic or antique battle, for example, with the specific purpose of creating the visual effect of such a battle with lots of miniatures, this shouldn't be a negative point in a general criteria "playability". Rather, the game should be evaluated with this purpose in mind. For a simulation style game, comparing it to others of its genre, is it too clunky and unelegantly designed? Does it require specific miniatures not available in the market outside of a certain company? This kind of graduation within its own category. Other than that, keep up the great work and the excellent channel! Cheers!
I use Force on force for WW2 games with particular rule mods for specific nations....very entertaining indeed.
Just not a big fan of the Morale rules.
Bring back Force on force....(or Ambush Alley 2!)
Force on force, more like blue on blue.
I hate pdf's. I looked at this game before and i liked the idea but i need a hardback book for the table. They should at least do a Print on Demand option like they do with so many old school RPG games now
We very much hope Ambush Alley and Osprey bring this back into print soon, because the hardback is gorgeous. Worthy of any coffee table, for sure. The eBay prices for new/used copies can get pretty steep right now.
Fours on Fours. ;D
Sounds like a name for a porno. ;)