I feel the greatest crime of 2024 is criminally underusing Bloomburrow. That set should have been a flagship, heck it should have had 2-3 sets that explored the plane. We should have had a good 3 to 6 months there, perhaps exploring the different seasons of Bloomburrow.
Yeah, it sucks the most interesting set was cut short bc they did scheduling wrong for Duskmourne's Halloween slop, now it rotating early so they can make all Rotations happen January 1st for the "convenience" of new players (which also means November December sets are basically back to 2 year rotation again)
Was it really that interesting? Aside from being visually pleasing, what is there to take away from it? Parts feel like Stryxhaven and others like Lorwyn.. and a lack of identity (aside from having animals) is not something you want. Of course "everything could be better if it is better", but as it is, Bloomburrow is lacking an element to make it stick. Maybe WotC knew it and didn't put the effort.
Yeah, at the very least 2 sets I think 1 set establishing the plane and another having something happening with the calamity beasts or with the wider plot would've been really cool The problem with not having blocks of sets anymore is when we get new planes it's just "hey this place exists" and then we move on
I never quite understood what you meant with the set's dying until I realized that actually nobody is talking about Bloomburrow anymore, and I even forgot Ixalan and Eldraine ever happened. Thunder Junction is only still talked about because of how bad the set was thematically
Yeah, it's more in terms of attention. Like once a set comes out we're basically asked to forget it like it never existed and start looking at the next shiny product. Madness
I think all the problems with the theme and tone in Duskmourn all have a common cause: The people making magic cannot understand the difference between iteration and reference. Mark Rosewater has repeatedly said that he can't see any difference between the recent style of referential cards and cards that reiterate well worn tropes, like most of Bloomburrow and Innistrad, and the black knight from Alpha. The difference is that a reiteration is designed to be appealing for the same reason that the original was. It does roughly the same good thing the original did. A reference does not attempt to reproduce the substance and purpose of the original at all, merely to remind us of it. It's the difference between a new voice telling you an old story, and a new voice telling you ABOUT an old story. Well-executed reiterations stand on their own. You can still get the reference if you know the original work, but without that connection the reiteration just looks more original than it actually is. Superficial references depend on a better piece of media having already done all the work, adding little to nothing themselves. They're an echo of a piece that once said something. it's not more of the meaningful media, it's just a the sign pointing you back to it, and if you don't recognize the original that sign refers to, it tells you nothing. I'm not just complaining about the movie references being so on the nose here. I think this difference also explains almost everything else that didn't land for you. What are the glimmers? They're a picture of the idea of hope. Why? Because hope is a necessary component of tension, danger, and fear, separating them from pointless misery, and Duskmourn was made by people who do not appreciate the difference between the presence of actual hope and the presence of representations of it; of hope-references. They're serving us the menu and getting confused when we ask for the meal instead of eating the laminated paper. The one place where you and I differ on Duskmourn is that I loath the nightmare creatures for the same reason: They're anti-glimmers. They represent fears that, while real, aren't threatening in practice; like lost teeth, missing out, and failed tests. Look out, survivors! If you don't keep your wits about you, you might get dropped from the queue for the Marvel secret lairs, or even get a D- at school! Their actual function is so vague that when Jace and Kaito meet one in the story, it doesn't do anything, Kaito doesn't understand how to interact with it, and Jace defeats it by "taking away its dreams". Nothing nightmarish happens. Nothing at all happens. It could have been the incarnation of polka music instead and the scene would play out identically. This is why the tone is all over the place too. They've publicly said that the mission statement was to make references to lots of things people liked, not to replicate some particular thing that people liked about them all, so they're referencing all sorts of media that did different things for different reasons, and they don't recognize that as a problem because they've lost sight of the importance of meaning. "Remember all these completely different movies that made you feel different ways? Duskmourn is like those! You should feel the way you did when you watched them!". That's why the survivors don't fit in their world. Here, Wizards are no longer expecting us to eat a menu with pictures of meals we like. They want us to eat pictures of nonsense plates assembled from foods we like, like gravy and ice cream. It's silly, but once you've forgotten the purpose of the menu, it probably doesn't seem that way. The laminate will taste just as good as ever. The tech is also rooted in the same problem. It's a superficial reference to tech with little apparent thought given to what it does, how it does it, or where it comes from. It's covered in glowing screens, but none of them say anything. The staticky TVs are either just TVs, or ghost portals, or both, depending on which source you're reading, because they cared more about them being there than about why, or what that meant. Duskmourn tech is just a slower, more expensive route to the same kind of product that "AI art" makes: The menu they want us to eat has become incoherent and inconsistent, offering nameless things described with food-sounding adjectives. This is how Chris Cocks is able to be so confident that AI is the future of Magic: Studio X, or at least the people there who get to decide what goes on cards, have already succumbed to Tech Bro Brain Disease and forgotten that art exists and that made things should have uses. They don't know (or at least Mark Rosewater suggests he does not know) about the reason that people value their disciplines, and they are rapidly winding down the creation of anything that couldn't be extruded from a machine: Very soon, Magic will just be pictures of Magic IP characters in the costumes of trendy genres, and pictures of characters from other IPs exactly the same as they always are, and Aaron Forsythe doesn't seem to get why we're not applauding that. Magic absolutely is going to die because of this, just not in the same hysterical sense that people usually mean when they say that. It's not that the business will collapse and everybody will abandon the game all at once, it's just that it's being replaced at an exponential rate with references to other things, and to itself. Soon, the meaning carried by every magic card that's not about something else entirely will be "Hey, remember Magic? Wasn't it great?" That's not continuing to iterate. That's a memorial.
"They're serving us the menu and getting confused when ask for the meal instead of eating the laminated paper." VERY good! And I think you're spot on too. Even about the AI stuff. I talk about that a bit in my next video and... ugh....
@@RedBobcatGames Having read it back I realize I overstated my case at the end there. Everything I said with regard to Tech Bro Brain Disease and AI-ification is only meant to apply to "creative", not to game mechanics.
This reiteration vs reference thing has been going on for roughly 15 years in western pop culture, closer to 20 in japanese pop culture. The best explanation I've encountered for the phenomena calls it "database consumption", and contrasts it against a more traditional "narrative consumption". A work designed for narrative consumption is a discrete piece of fiction - it has an identifiable start and end, and it contains everything you need in order to enjoy it. In the context of a story, a narrative consumption work spends a lot of time establishing its characters, setting and premise, and seeks to give all of those things satisfying conclusions to their arcs. In the context of music, a narrative consumption work is an orchestral symphony or a song like Bohemian Rhapsody that tells a specific story. A work designed for database consumption doesn't (fully) function on its own. Instead, it builds upon a pre-existing "database" of recognisable and enjoyable "symbols" that appeal to consumers independent of any specific work. With database consumption, instead of people being fans of individual stories, people are fans of symbols in the database, and primarily enjoy works based on how they utilise those symbols. In "otaku" culture, this is very highly developed, to the point where virtually any concept can be given a character mascot by assigning a set of symbols to it, and will gain instant popularity. The character "Hatsune Miku", whose popularity recently bamboozled older MTG fans, became successful specifically because of database consumption forces within otaku culture. Recent MTG sets have all been works of database consumption. They're pulling symbols out of the cultural database - in some cases, very literal symbols, like the cowboy hat - and just presenting them plain: "Member cowboy movies?". That's a problem, because anyone who doesn't member cowboy movies, or who does but was never particularly into them, is not being given any opportunity to become interested in them through the set. Contrast with Theros, which even though pretty databasey was still developed enough that I enjoyed it despite being someone who really doesn't like Greek mythology. And this is an especially big problem for MTG because the western pop culture database is much less soluble than the weeb database. The weeb database is character elements, which makes symbols pretty context-agnostic. This is because there are very few "anime franchises"; the vast majority of anime are adaptations of manga and novels written by regular authors years earlier, and last 1-2 seasons, meaning that common character elements long outlive any stories that feature them. In western pop culture, creativity is much more top-down and franchise-led, which means characters rarely get decomposed into their elements and instead get inserted into the database as complete characters, and that means that there are symbols in the database that are tied to concepts of ownership and origin. Even when that decomposition does happen, the database is too silty to create a completely context-agnostic symbol, which results in much more discrete concepts of genre than are seen in the weeb database. The consequence of this is that when you go fishing in the database, you don't catch generic, adaptable symbols to assemble any way you want, you catch specific franchise references that can't be reimagined without losing the appeal. This is why Duskmourn wasn't able to integrate its many genre references into a coherent identity, while horror anime do this pretty successfully: "Blade" never got dissolved into his component symbols, so he's just in the database as "Blade", and the bare minimum familiar symbol to the database consumer is "literally Blade".
My brain read this as another Crimson Vow retrospective, I don't think it understands the idea that Duskmourn could already be over when I haven't even got round to playing it yet.
The Battle question seems quite simple, in two parts: Because it's easier to introduce a new card type that interacts in a unique way with other parts of the game (namely combat) than put in provisions within the existing rule body for, in this example, enchantments. And the second bit is for lore reasons: Enchantments are lasting magic effects that someone puts on either creatures, players (auras) or places (non-auras). The invasions of different planes doesn't quite fit any of those molds. Hence: New card type.
I came into magic for real just before eldraine came out last year. I got to enjoy that a fair bit before Ixalan came out, and i utterly adored that, it cemented my love for the game not least because Amalia became my favourite character ever and I got lost learning about the lore through her story. Now a year on since then, I can't help but feel a little like I've been bait and switched. Ixalan still feels to me like the last time had some proper grounded weighty story to me. Why does it seem as if I've been given a few doses of the good stuff till I i was hooked, and now it's all cut with flour and sawdust? And of course these worse hits come way more frequently in an attempt to reach that previous high. Hahaha.
Precisely my fears. I know it's been said but none of these "mtg characters in a new silly hat" gimmicks pull me in at all. I want to learn about the actual lore! I only recently understood what people meant to when they referred to set "blocks" and I'd love to return to that.
I didn't really give Duskmourn a chance for three reasons. The first being that I was still mentally focused on Bloomburrow, and didn't feel like committing any headspace to Duskmourn as it was only released a month or two after. Secondly the theme didn't mesh with me at all, as I personally do not think that the 80's vibe contrasts dramatically with the rest of magic, and vibes are a major reason for me even looking at new sets. Thirdly, by the time I got used to Bloomburrow, Foundations had begun and seemingly simultaneously ended their spoiler season.
I'm of the camp that thinks Duskmourn is significantly cooler and more interesting than Bloomburrow, but a factor is certainly the fact that I only really had one week to digest Bloomburrow (but not the main one, I was always interested in it) From a purely gameplay and mechanics angle...Duskmourn is significantly better to me. I know Bloomburrow is beginner friendly which is great and *necessary* but Duskmourn cards made me say "wow, that's cool" way more than Bloomburrow ones
I actually preferred the two-set block model over the old three-set blocks because so many otherwise good blocks suffered from having lackluster third sets that were running on creative fumes. I think the reason WotC doesn’t want to go back to the block model though is simply the fear of releasing a set that isn’t popular and then having already lined up a sequel set as the next release. So instead we get stuck waiting years for sequels to popular sets because they have to prove themselves first.
Yeah, I can see that. I just wish the last time they did a 2 block set wasn't halloween / wedding theme because I really don't think that did well to sell the concept of blocks being able to work
Honestly, a lot of blocks with 3 sets had worse second sets than third ones (Planar Chaos, Born of the Gods, Planeshift, Homelands back when that was in Ice Age Block, Legions, Conflux, Worldwake... I'd probably say Mirrodin Besieged if the thought of New Phyrexia didn't make me blow a gasket) or were weird cases where both the sets after the first sucked (looking at you, Mirrodin and Innistrad).
Likely I've gotten a lot more bleedy in later years, but I found several of the monsters shown in this video really scary. I am happy not to have collected the set. But I totally agree that the human 20's-something hero characters (with oh so perfect hair and makeup) looked more like from a ghostbusters movie than a nightmarish horror. I actually found the gremlin token playing with a torchlight cute. I think that was my favourite card from this video. Ps. and yes, a big congrats to mr hands!
I think that the inconsistencies you see is the difference between 80s movie horror and Gothic horror. At the same time we saw near unstoppable slasher characters, we also saw Final Girl / Guys who figured out a way to stop them. Usually by overcoming their fear, gaining some insight, or using a special weapon. I think that special something is what the glimmers are supposed to represent. That being said, Anthropede is a total fail, since human centipede released in 2009.
Sadly, because multiple problems (bad draft in some case), the middle block being considered the worse one, if you didnt like the plane / it's mechanic it meant 6 months of little interest for you (and no sales for wotc). Blocks had reasons to be dropped In general, I think wotc should opt to 4 sets a year, one every 3 months. Which makes the las vegas announcement make me scream into the void
You're not wrong, but my argument to that is always "Then they should hire better world building staff". The answer of just not having blocks always felt like an over reaction to a few sets being duds. That's like saying MKM wasn't well recieved so we should just bin off Magic's IP and have half the new sets be Universes Beyond...
I dunno. Maybe. I still feel like even if we're returning to a plane it should be done in a 3 part story arch. Now, that's not to say the story would have to happen all at once. I'd be fine if say we went back to the same plane the year after, and then the year after again to give us a very long winded 3 act story structure. In fact the wait may even build anticipation
I really wish they would go back to 4 standard legal sets a year. Other cards can be made but dont make them standard legal or quite as big. Great examples for these are final fantasy and Spiderman. Go ahead and make them if you must but dont drag them into standard or bring them into draft environments. Next year I will probably only attend 3 of the six sets draft events. I love magic have ever since I started in RTR but this pace is blistering. With a job and a family it feels like every time I go to draft a new set is out and I have to learn how to draft that one. It's kind of exhausting. Build good things and let them settle. Side note: I really miss the full stories that blocks told and really wish we got a bloomburrow block.
i think a confusing part of magic is kind of the idea that when a new set comes out, the older sets are still "relevant" insofar as they are legal game pieces in many environments for someone to pick up and get into. Like someone who just got into magic today could be like "hm would i like a duskmourn bundle, a thunder junction, or a bloomburrow?" and those are all cards that a relevant and legal today. but its also 100% true that attention pivots in a tiktok fashion immediately off one thing to the next and its really frustrating especially because if Im reading correctly next year will have 6 standard legal sets??? (Wacky Racers, Tarkir, Final Fantasy, Star Wars, Spiderman, and one more UB?). ive attempted to lazily check and see the number of standard sets (aside from CORE sets!) released each year and back in the day it was 3 sets a year... then it sped up a bit to 4 sets a year, then for two years (2018/2019) it was back to 3. And since then it was basically 4 sets a year and if there were 5 it was a year with the non-core core sets (dungeons and dragons and now foundations). So to sum things up, we've gone from 3 expansion sets, to 4 for a while, to 5 occasionally, and now next year 6 potentially(assuming the last one doesnt get moved)
Can't wait to have 8 weeks to play every Standard set until further notice! PS: First 4 weeks were Red Leyline so sucks if you don't like playing against Mono Red.
For all that i agree with the 3 part story being generally better, I'm not sure it would have suited duskmourn, seing the glimmers hope manifested by the house itself to protect those it terrifies and the nightmares and overlords in the same set shows the dichotomy of a demon that is feeding of the entire world but still is anxious for it's time isolation and doesn't want anyone to feel as bad as it did even tho it is also trying to make them feel way worse
Yeah, true. But this sort of thing makes me wish they'd advertised Duskmourn as it's own plane. By initially pitching it as 80s retro slasher horror I've come to it with expectations, and Glimmers just don't match what was advertised, you know?
I’d like to build out the enchantments as much as possible for five color rooms, so it plays off of what she can do the best. There’s plenty of synergy to work with for all the Eerie triggers, and with all the powerhouse enchantment creatures to help you get through it could be a lot of fun.
This was a cool set, it was actually the first pre release event I went to and even got 4th place for a 30 man tournament. And duskmourn has like half the number of legendary creatures that outlaws had, so they definitely tried to cut down.
Oh congratulations. I love pre release! And yeah, I think you're right about the Legendaries too. Be interesting to see what'll happen now that Universes Beyond is legal in all formats
Clown as a creature type doesn't hit me too badly because it's the sort of creature type I could reasonably see existing on other planes - the Rakdos totally should have some Clowns, and most old fantasy type planes probably have Jesters, which are basically just clowns (Eldraine for sure, right?). And you can't reasonably say that clown should be something else besides Jester - if that's your job, that's your job. Comparing it to the on the nose references of Thunder Junction of course just brings up the obvious antithesis of that, which is that Coyote is now a creature type, and that it's fine for there to be six stinking variants on Dog but lord forbid Naga and Snake be separate.
I don't really like Dusmourn too much thematically, but dammit, in my opinion this set is such a blast to play in Limited from a mechanical standpoint.
After I watched the video- I decided to see what kind of deck Marina Vendrell could be. Using *ONLY* cards you and Dr. Hands opened (tell him I said congrats), I made an okay deck with Eerie Triggers as the intended focus with Delirium as a minor backup strategy
The current cadence of releases is insane. Duskmourn feels like it just came out. I'm still not over how OTJ felt like it went out of stores so fast. (mostly because I wanted more packs opened so Thoughtsieze would be cheaper) I don't know how they expect anyone to keep up anymore.
I think Anthropede certaimly has human-like elements. The face in the center does look human-like, not quite an actial human face but like an AI imitation of it, which I think might be a not-very-well executed attempt at an Uncanny Valley effect, but more importantly, the Anthropede has human-like arms and hands, as the flavor text references I don't know, but I'd guess that Duskmourne is supposed to be simultaneously a horror set and a "hopeful" set. There's a card that cares about whether your opponent has a Glimmer creature, and I think that represents the idea - horrifying entities, but you're safe if you can find a Glimmer creature or one of those heroes
Yeah, elements like that I can certainly understand once I give them a moment. But they don't do themselves any favours when upon first glance I think "What's the glimmer doing there?" or "Why is that a movie reference?", you know?
While I do not agree on a lot of minor subjective commentary you presented here, I do agree that DM could have been much better served by splitting it into two or three sets, where each set focuses on one of the somewhat clashing tones we got. Thematically, I would have loved set 1 focusing on genuine horror, with Fears and monsters and freaks and insane survivors; and set 2 focusing on Glimmers, hope, and human resistance. You mentioned the Innistrad trilogy, but I was thinking more of an inversion of Scars of Mirrodin: where that block started with a conflict, and ended with hopes crushed and the "evil" reigning supreme, a DM duology could have started with complete hopelessness, and followed it up with a depiction of those who manage to stand against it. However, I also think that diluting the variety of tones in the single set would have also diluted the variety of game mechanical elements. The tones may clash in flavor, but the mechanics (which were noticeably tied to flavor) of the set all work incredibly well together IMO, with things like some green and white Fears being capable of tapping your own creatures, triggering their Survivor abilities, evoking a feeling of humans hiding from or outwitting monsters; or Manifest Dread effects flipping over and revealing not a monster, but a human, evoking a feeling of an ominous shadow turning out to be an ally; etc. My hot take is, I think mood whiplash in media is not an inherently bad thing, though it is definitely an acquired taste, and without an overly productive imagination, it's probably hard to appreciate some of the things I enjoyed about DM.
Very fair take. I thik a return to 3 set blocks that intended to be drafted together may fix some of the mechanics issues, but I also understand it would create new ones too. Tricky
19:30 the art direction of Friendly Ghost reminds me of Hanna-Barbera's Funky Phantom cartoon, where they basically tried to copy their own Scooby Doo formula, with a ghost mascot instead of a dog. Except they also had a dog. And a cat. Who was also a ghost. It doesn't give me the Casper vibes that people were pointing out is the obvious name reference, so it's not like toddler/preschool levels. But still, vibes are in the grade/middle school era for me when I would hope for at least preteen levels of thriller/horror.
I had been writing a big long comment about how I love Duskmourn, and how it brought me back to magic (even if it is for so little time) due to how much I adore this plane, and then defending the cards you were saying weren't quite "horror" enough for you. But I deleted it all because I'm genuinely BAFFLED by some of the things you are saying. Like. Because there are cards where people aren't afraid it's a bad horror set???? What. Huh. What. Like, I don't understand one bit. Like it's a horror set because it's set on a plane that's like "What if cosmic horror was all inside my house," and then we see everyone dealing with being inside that house. And people like, are people. And so try to make the most of it, scrounge around, defend themselves, try to stay alive. The indomitable human spirit versus overwhelming odds and whatnot. Fear becoming as routine as hunger, those that have survived a few things learning that it's steady themselves or become overwhelmed and die, harnessing their fear and anger at that fear to try and fight back, utterly terrified but spiteful enough to power through it and scream as you bury the blade in the rotten things mouth. The subtle horrifying idea that starts growing that maybe the few reprieves: the tech that they are able to recover, the glimmers, the few safe zones, all of it is because Valgavoth, the cosmic horror himself allowed them that sense of control because when he rips it away their terror and utter helplessness will be all the sweeter. I don't know. I just fully think our brains work entirely differently. I love this plane.
I'd have to agree, because yeah I don't agree haha. "The indomitable human spirit" just clashes with the type of horror it appears to me that they're trying to evoke here. Same for "the tech that they are able to recover, the glimmers, the few safe zones, all of it is because Valgavoth, the cosmic horror himself allowed them" just doesn't line up in my head with the Saw movies, or the Shining, or Human Centipede, or Wicker Man, or any of the other movies they're seemingly trying to mimic. These things all thematically clash from what I can see
@@RedBobcatGames Y'see I imagine it like, spoilers for the magnus archives, season 5 of the magnus archives. There is unending terror and nightmares and whatnot, but none of them are actually like *the thing that is the horror* yes, it's the horror for those people in that moment, but that's just whatever the house, and thus valgavoth is putting them through in that moment, just going from nightmare to nightmare. The real horror is the grander plane and the living embodiment of nightmares above it. It's a mismatch of many different vibes bc whatever scares them works. And then the indomitable human spirit thing is just, the glimmers which are their one real defence, which I like to think is actually just a thing valgavoth either permits or perhaps even is the source of in order to not make the fear go stale, while the technology works enough for them to rely on it, but not enough to trust it. I don't know, it really works for me anyway haha.
Yeah, that's fair. I get most of my information on sets from press conferences, creator panels and marketing material, and this set was very much sold to me as a top down designed 80s retro horror set, like Nightmare on Elm street and Friday the 13th etc. And I just don't see it here, or at least I see aspects that very much contradict that ethos. I think that's my main issue
@@RedBobcatGames Valid, I just randomly reccommended a video of the early access arena games, and then got sucked into the vibes of it, then read up on the lore. I'm sure the expectations vastly changes how your first impressions go, which of course colours your whole view of the thing.
Can't tell if the humanoid hands were missed on athropede or if that didn't succeed to point out the body horror in the name enough. Also, I REALLY wish that they pulled alt survivor arts to showcase the horror of them being hunted. Admittedly, as much I love that design choice, it's unfortunate that one gets the experience of a "monster appearing" at complete random.
As for Anthropede, kind of a bit of both? I think the issue is as soon as I've read the name, I'm already thinking about Human Centipede and now the card has that barrier to overcome to win me over
showing a statistic of how many viewers are subscribed while you said "some of you" was brilliant! and yes, the game "COUP" is awesome i love it a note regarding the feeling of the setting. i have almost 0 knowledge of magic lore and when i looked at duskmourne cards the first time, with the set being called "house of horror" i thought its "ghostbusters but magic", i didnt know it was supposed to be an actualy horror setting xD all the artworks look like they are just acting for a movie shoot
The Glimmers are supposed to be the source of hope for the Survivors, their last lifeline against the hunger of the house. Unfortunately falls through when far too many of the cards depict survivors as competent and fairly unconcerned
my main gripe with duskmourn is that it doesnt dive into any of its ideas too much, duskmourn (and maybe bloomburrow) could have benifitted from the old block releases. cause duskmourn has 3 ~ 4ish ideas,the survivors in the house valgavoth's cult with the horrors and the refrences to "modern horror" but no of em are really expanded upon and all of them feel so surface level
I started getting interested in MTG when Bloomburrow came out and officially started playing with Duskmourn and I have to say, it didn’t feel like Bloomburrow had any time in the light at all and Duskmourn certainly feels like a skip too. But I think that’s intentional. With Bloomburrow being strictly about cute critters in the woods and Duskmourn being about 80s horror through a MTG lens, I think these sets were pretty well sculpted to be geared towards a more general audiences and less about courting magics already established core demographic. Sure playing to your base is smart but GROWING your base is more appealing from a marketing perspective. So here comes the gimmick sets and Marvel/Final Fantasy/ Sponge Bob crossovers to pull fences sitters like me (I started looking once I heard about MTG x FF and committed because Duskmourn looked neat aesthetically). So Duskmourn not being for everyone and then getting scooped by to sell the next product is for sure what’s happening. “If you don’t like this set, move on to the next one where you could get something you do like.” The next new set of 2025 is MTG Mario Kart so I think that’s what the vibe is going forward into the new era. I’m down to see what the hell, as Foundations has the old school juice that I remember from when I was wee so hopefully these Foundations cards will last into the new era, but the new sets that are supposed to be “new MTG “ feel a bit like the others - Gimmicky.
As someone who likes the ideas of the glimmers as litteral glimmers of hope; I agree with you that they don't make a lot of sense in this set. In my opinion due to poor execution, there are many ways I could see them fitting in better with the set, but the most obvious one to me would be if the rest of the set actually felt scary like Innistrad, where they could be one of things that keeps some survivors alive/sane as they hold onto a darker world, but with nearly every glimmer just being a bright animal with little context in a tonally messy set at the very least, they unfortunately remain in my head as only an interesting idea rather than compelling cards.
I will say a main point I agree with in the video is that multi set blocks were better than magic's current release structure. I will also say however that I dont think I have ever seen a magic set that actually successfully narrates the themes of the plane and story of the world through its cards alone. Even some of the most evocative planes fail at that aspect as I think no magic set has truly achieved this. A big example of this is how the glimmers in Duskmourn are magical manifestations of the survivor's hope and persistance. No player would rightfully be able to get that aspect of the world building without reading the story. I believe that harshly criticizing the existance of these glimmer cards saying they clash with the sets theme would be like saying the disturb cards from crimson vow clash with the set theme because they show mostly kind and helpful spirits. I know that i cant truly convey my thoughts in a youtube comment but I hope at least some of my sentiment came through in that just dismissing elements of a set as off theme just ends up feeling not genuine when the sets main story isnt accounted for. (I will say the countless refrences and bad jokes are just bad for the set attempting to convey story through its cards)
I agree, and I think you make a good point. I was looking at it more from a game design perspective, before the narrative would have been written. I imagine on a white board somewhere the words "80s retro horror" was written, and I just can't get my head around how we ended up with glimmers from that. it's less that I think they don't fit the world, and more than I don't think they fit (what I assume) was the original design goal, if that makes sense?
I do think magic has been completely flopping when it comes to top-down design for their recent sets. Both MKM and OTJ failed at making their set themes fit into the magic setting. Especially with Duskmourn, I think that the top-down design hurt the set in a lot of ways as the story and mechanics that were made are actually rather interesting. Though the constraint of the 80s horror aesthetic ended up setting expectations at a completely different place and creating a mish-mash cacophony of conflicting asthetics from the 80s horror to the MTG unique setting elements.
No set is ever going to perfectly communicate all the ideas that went into it, but many sets have successfully communicated a world that's interesting within the cards alone. In those sets, the external lore text was an interesting expansion, rather than a substitute. For example, the Return to Ravnica block does a really good job communicating the personality of each faction through its cards, and showcasing an evocative faction war. I didn't need to read any lore to know how cool I thought Izzet and Orzhov were, and indeed I didn't read any lore until the D&D sourcebook, I just imagined my own Ravnica based on what I saw in the cards, which turned out very close to what Ravnica actually was, because the cards establish the plane well. Contrast with Strixhaven, which has a very similar premise, but where after iirc 4 years I still don't know what the RW, UR or WB factions are supposed to be about.
I’m not the biggest fan of most of the set but the fears and the overlords knocked it out of the park in the horror department both ingame and in lore the overlords and Valgavoth himself are so oppressive on the field, lord of pain is downright in control of the game state when he’s active and the impending mechanic for the overlords makes it actually genuinely anxiety inducing if you can’t dispel them and the turns are counting down before a juiced up win condition smashes through the wall like the koolaid man, the survivors look kind of goofy but I like it in a way since it shows that you never know what skills from your old life will help in this disastrous grim situation they find themselves in
@@RedBobcatGamesyeah it really is a shame how they made so many of the commons really silly when there’s so many awesome rares and mythical the rooms are cool too, I hope if we go back to this plane we get to see the Razorkin and their carnival of terror more, large portion of them appear to be clown based or these hulking butcher monsters that barely resemble humans and are like the biggest day to day threat on the plane since the giant moth demons are more of an overarching fear, but there’s only like three or four cards for them
I'd like to return, but this time for them to pitch it as it's own thing. I think the marketing of "This is an 80s retro horror movie" has harmed it in the end
@ yeah I feel that should’ve stayed for the collectors cards like the movie poster super rares things like that are cool but they shouldn’t be as frequent as they were, humor also has a place in MTG ofc but I feel it should be things like the goblins how it’s still semi grounded but hilarious for cards like goblin diplomat to be so bad at his job he causes a mass brawl things like that
I played the prerelease and got an almost fully functional Marina deck, which I actually built afterwards (Called it my "Magnetic Rose" deck for the Memories anime🌹)
notable that when maro mentions less legendaries he says non UB sets, and since they make up half of all premere sets now, we still will get plenty of commander cards in premere sets to destroy metas and to make feel bad moments, beyond getting rolled by the spongebob, freddyfazbear, condement man infinite.
Duskmourn really just misses the ball for me for several reasons. Firstly, it's yet another set this year, on top of everything else. Not that I really bought anything this year, but this is fighting with everything else for relevancy for me. I don't want to imagine how exhausting it must get for other players, especially Standard players. Don't even get me started on Bloomburrow barely getting time to be relevant before they shoved this set out the door. Secondly, it's setting. I think it's a bit of a weird one, even for Magic. A haunted house that feels impossibly huge on the inside, like it's a plane of it's own, can totally work, but as a plane outright? It feels weird. I think it would've been more effective if it was on somewhere simmilar to Innistrad, or even outright Innistrad, as a mansion taken over by a deranged witch planeswalker, or something worse perhaps. In fact, if this were a set block, you could have built up to the mansion itself, and it would've worked much better. Show the world outside of the building, and then show us how downright strange and horrifying the mansion itself was. Again, if you portrayed this plane as instead a haunted house that was plane-like on the inside, it would've been fucking awesome. Supposedly it started out as a plane, and turned into what it is now, which is fine, but I think having two sets for inside and outside of the mansion would've been pretty damn neat too. I'm willing to give it a bit more thought on that one though, see if it actually grows on me or not ultimately. For now though, it feels a bit off. But lastly, the biggest issue I've got, is it's modern influences. This could've actually been an absolutely fantastically presented plane, and it wouldn't be able to save itself from just feeling like something entirely out of place for what Magic is, which to me, is rooted hard into fantasy. It's not to say sci-fi can't work, but it needs to clearly be fantastical looking. It's why I thought Neon Dynasty fell entirely flat for me, because it was clearly just trying to be the Cyberpunk set. This set on the flipside, feels more like a Stranger Things set, or whatever you want to ultimately call it. Whilst it's artwork is genuinely phenominal, shit like modern looking TVs and the likes just don't work for Magic. If anything, it kills the fantastical vibe Magic has completely. Even Thunder Junction, as bad as that was, still tried to feel like it was believable for something you could expect from Magic. Hell, Duskmourn makes Thunder Junction look good by comparison, and that pains me immensely to say. I could go on, but I think you get the point. It's modern influences are the biggest reason I can't get into this set at all, because it feels far removed from what makes Magic cool to me. And I really wanted to like this one too, because it had such cool ideas and artwork. Apparently now though, it's a big ask to just have Magic sets feeling like they belong in Magic now. This was not a good set in my eyes, regardless of whether or not the cards are mechanically good or not. Couldn't care less if a card was amazing or busted, if it feels off, I ain't running it.
Wow, I didn't recognize half of the reference from this set to movies.. It just makes me sad because I thought they were related to the story (which I've given up on) not just for jokes. Gives me little hope that they're going to take magic story seriously anymore especially in combination with these universe beyond sets
The problem might be the Horror they are referencing. This feels like a spooky action movie, not a real Horror World. To put it another way, the point is to have fun fighting Ghosts, not be scared of them. And yes, it is very jokey.
@@RedBobcatGames I think the problem is they've tried to do both without really understanding either. They want it to be an oppressive and genuinely terrifying setting- but in trying to pull a different design approach to what Innistrad had they ended up pulling too many things like Ghostbusters and the Goonies as inspiration. Even things like Saw, Halloween, and Friday the 13th are pretty fucking goofy-looking once you get two or three sequels in. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't strictly hate the idea of "Magic characters but with aesthetically flavoured hats on." That being said, Spice8Rack's most recent video made me appreciate the setting a lot more than I initially did.
Yeah, I really wish my video had come out a week earlier because I feel Spice addressed / echoed / examined a bunch of stuff I'd raised as questioned here
I think your read on some of the art is a little uncharitable. Discomfort is an important part of horror. The first two character arts you highlighted were clearly uncomfortable, even if they weren’t abjectly horrified. “Glimmers of Hope” are important for maintaining a horror tone. If everything is all gloom and doom all the time, the horror loses its edge. It becomes drole and rote. The Glimmers are that thing, they’re a thing that keeps the remaining survivors clinging to hope (And they’re apparently engineered by the magic of the house to keep them hopeful so that crushing that hope is more satisfying.) Humor is also an important part of horror. Levity helps contrast the horror, making the horror more horrible. They all fit the tone. I do agree that having a 3-phase set would have made this more apparent and helped with the theming, though. Edit: Also with Anthropede I didn’t even think of Human Centipede. It has the upper half of a human face and a bunch of human eyes, it has humanoid features. Anthropede fits without the pun.
What I find most jarring is the way the marketing sold it to us. Because, yeah it fits with the narrative, but this was initially pitched as a retro 80's slasher movie set. That's the reason I find the Glimmers and what not so out of place. Because you're right, it is important for a horror setting, but it's not something you see a lot of (and certainly not in the form of glowing animals) in things like Friday the 13th, and Nightmare on Elm street, which is what they'd said this set was supposed to be. I even find the Saw references out of place because those films are so modern. I think the world builders, card designers and marketing team really need to get their ducks in a row
@@RedBobcatGames Thst makes complete sense. That entire gothic horror vibe and amazing artwork was what got me into Magic. If I was asked to choose my favourite artwork from just that set I wouldn’t be able to decide! I was thinking more those kinds of cards that break the mould a little. Do a different style.
I was really excited to try out MTG for the first time with Bloomburrow. But because of all the news about Duskmourn and universes beyond that happened concurrently i got burned out on MTG before i could even try out the set.
for me this year duskmourne and bloomburrow were the sets of interest for me and waited for so before and after these sets I'm basically waiting for the new year for tarkir and unfortunately a pushed back lorwyn
I play standard and am still making decks focused on OTJ cards, was just starting to really get interested in bloomburrow but duskmourne released a week later lmao
It truly is a shame how WotC is cannibalising their own sales by not giving them room to sell. Hell, my local game stores tend to sell out on magic product real fast and they have no reason to stock more because the new thing is coming next week anyways.
As a new player (joined last week of bloomburrow) I don't really understand the theme issues. As far as I can see it, MTG isn't really a "high fantasy" theme and more of a "dimension hopper" theme. We had cyberpunk futuristic sci fi, story books, detectives, cowboys, furry creatures and 80s horror. Even caverns of Ixalan to me was just dinosaurs and pirates from what little I've seen. There is very little high fantasy from what I've seen. The "magic" in magic is just a vessel for them to say "what if haunted house dimension" This is why I'm also not interested in Tarkir, but have a fair amount of hype for Aetherdrift. Races through the multiverse sounds cooler then just dragons.
Yes, you're not wrong. And that's why the olds like me are so sad to see what once was high fantasy become what we have now. The cloesest thing I have to compare the feeling to, is imagine if they brought back Ian McKellen as Gandalf for a new trilogy of Lord of the Rings films, but this time he was joined by Jack Sparrow, Jason Bourne, Scooby-doo and Neo from the Matrix. This wasn't a spin off, this was a main line canon LotR trilogy, and all the people watching for the first time would just assume that's what Lord of the Rings always was
I got back into Magic in 2024. Apparently, that was a mistake. It's like having a firehose blasting diarrhea aimed at your bedroom window. What the fuck do you mean we're getting spongebob cards?
Honestly, I’m really not a fan of Duskmourn. I think Bloomburrow was a much better set and would have preferred it if they’d sacked of Duskmourn, kept with Bloomburrow for a month or so more before Foundations, which I’ve not met anyone who is interested in. My LGS told me today they’ve had no pre-orders.
I recommend the new video by Spice8Rack on the horror of Duskmourne. it's a great exploration of the ways the set references, approaches, and uses modern horror media, both failings and successes. for instance, the art direction strayed away from depicting direct (gory) violence on the human characters, which might have trickled down into how the mood of the survivors is all over the place who knows, though. I certainly did find some of the monsters scary, at least
I actually face palmed a bit when that video released because I felt like my video was asking the question "What is Duskmourn?" and Spice's vid was saying "This is what Duskmourn is". Which would have worked really well IF mine had come out first haha. Oh well
A friend of mine did it like 50% from the set but a working 5 color deck to be good you need beeter land base and need some core cards not fit for standard games@RedBobcatGames
@@RedBobcatGamessadly no. I needed some land support and some other options, but I did create the land base from that 5 color precon that no one ever buys. Also took some of the board vipes from it. Works pretty good and I did include all the rooms
I think WOTC want people to start skipping about every other set. See how 50% of 2025 magic will be Universes Beyond, and they don't expect every player to like every universes beyond, see maros blog especially. So like, don't give in to the hype cycle, and realize that one is not obligated to draft the new set if you liked the old one better. I mean standard is going to shift, but the shift rate in standard feels as much meta based as card based at this point.
@@RedBobcatGames You can skip drafts and buy singles More importantly, with an 18 set standard, which seems to be the goal, that means roughly 3 cards a set on average for a 60 card deck, which is not that many singles. Since you tend to play playsets, it means you can skip sets
For instance, I play standard aggro. There were approximately 3 cards from dsk that I cared about on power level. That makes 12 singles, which is not that many cards
True, but I'm not sure why WotC's goal would be for me to play less of something I love. Like if Magic comes out, I want to play it, otherwise where do I draw the line you know?
Nice format. I mean the killing of three birds, not the new Standard. Critical drinker made a video on depiction of men in modern cinema. Well worth seeing. Also the funky gadgets... jeez this set is stupid.
Another excellent video! It's a damn shame how fast things are and how it's only getting faster!! I use to be able to pride myself on memorizing most of the cards in a set and brewing but now it just feels mind numbing.... That being said I am fond of the art and mechanics for this set, not a fan of the silly outfits though!
Blink and you'll miss it seems to be the got to WoTC marketing strategy these days. I didn't even know Foundations was this upcoming weekend until I asked in store. And to think, I still haven't opened my pre-release box for Duskmourn yet, its on my pile of to record stuff. Overall the set was okay, few cards I like but its really gone nowhere as things go, no real lasting affect on whats played locally. Now, I don't remember where I heard this but I do recall someone stating that Duskmourn is a hybrid of two sets including what was to be an "un" set. Assuming this to be the case, may provide insight into why some of the vibes are off. I for one can see that being the case, tho overall I think the set was alright to good on the quality scale. However it didn't come close to Bloomburrow in quality or enjoyment factor.
@@RedBobcatGames It would be interesting. If proven true though, it may mean that other sets have had similar treatments, given that they plan sets years in advance. Obviously this is pure speculation but I honestly wouldn't put it past WoTC to do it
It takes every chance to take serious any aspect of the horror in this set, seeing the characters of the cards dressed like Back to the Future meets Ghostbusters sponsored by Nintendo and dressed by Michael Jackson for Thriller It sometimes it stops looking like horror movies memes and starts just looking like an 80's fashion meme
Bruv I have not even finished my group’s draft and already Foundations is here? Actual War Crime that WOTC have done this at least twice now. I’m still going to try and get boxes at later dates for our group tho.
A 5 color Room Deck with only like 4-5 Rooms doesn't seem like it would be good, even if you technically made a legal deck I don't think it would work properly.
As somebody who only plays magic casually ... The rate of releases is far to high. It also creates in a relatively short amount of time to many new mechanics i have to deal with next itme i play magic. (i often have 3-4 months that i don't play as timings just don't allign with friends who play more often then me)
Battles are battles because they can't be attacked. How you wanna attack permanent without hp? Also they enters prevents from sac to turn other side, It'll be too easy to transform them
Battles can be attacked, unless you mean they couldn't be attacked if they were enchantments? And if that's the case just make Battle a subtype with in built mechanics around removing counters when they take damage. There's already plenty of creatures that function that way, and a few enchantments that are very similar
I think you're right about how this set is confusing because there's multiple themes. When you said maybe it was suppose to be a three arc set...i thought it's possible that the set got rushed out as a catch all "halloween" set meant to be released in time for the holiday.
I think weirdly it was supposed to be more of a Christmas set that got moved forward due to the introduction of Foundations. But who knows at this point
i get that they aren't sending you money, but if zatu sent you a box for free, then this video is technically "sponsored" by them since they funded the means for you to make it.
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that there needs to be some sort of obligation attached for it to count. They didn't know I was going to feature it in a video when they sent it, and I've been sent other stuff that I haven't featured too. Like, I'm happy to recieve stuff but as I said in the vid I had a bunch of ideas and this was getting made with or without the cards, so I wouldn't say they funded it. I could well be wrong though, but from what I've seen the major rules seem to be "be clear about the nature of the relationship" which i think I've done here. But again, no expert
Shoutout to Duskmourn for managing to alienate both people that don't like horror and people who do. Truly, WotC's creative acumen knows no bounds. Maybe sticking to UB is for the best - slavishly taking orders from corporate IP-holders on how to represent their properties is a better fit for their creative abilities.
While I'm not buying Magic anymore, it's not because of weird tonal shifts in the premier sets. The game is 30 years old, I don't blame designers for feeling that they need to expand the pool (though the specific implementation of magic tech here is particularly underwhelming). It's because Hasbro is rotten through and through, and they don't deserve another goddamn dime from me.
There is too much product, and 6 premier sets a year doesn’t help. I’m hyped about foundations cos it’s essentially a good core set. And part of what makes core sets good is the lack of story, it can have anything from any plane cos it’s a card worth playing. I’d love a yearly structure with a core set and a 2-3 set block, with maybe a flying visit to another plane to fill a gap. But no way are wotc doing that. I wanted more time in bloomburrow, I’m already focused on foundations. To me duskmourn only existed for the weekend I could play the red leyline deck in bo1. Aesthetically Duskmourn is trying to be horror without being Innestrad, and well it’s not Innestrad. The plane’s slightly whimsical 80s tech is the best part of that difference
I think the biggest problem with using the survivors as the frame of reference is that they're not stand-ins for people new to the plane (IE us) they are stand-ins for the final girl after the movie. They've lived and survived and adapted to their situations on the planes, which is why it's all the more terrifying when we see them scared. What makes the monster hunters scared? Also when we see the survivors losing, we are also supposed to feel the dread that dying horribly is inevitable. We don't see any older survivors (I should say not that I recall or could find but I could be wrong here) which leads us to believe there aren't any. Also toby is a weird thing because the lore of the beasties is that they are friendly but scary because they're obviously monsters, but he took the time to find out what they were and so he knows he's being protected by a big bad thing that can probably hold its own against the other monsters.
That guy with the book seems kinda old. But also, I think you're probably right about the survivors. But then that makes me circle back to "So what is this set then?". Because if it is a throw back to 80 retro horror, then surely the survivors wouldn't be grizzled veterans like you suggest because the people in those films never are. I just don't get what they were going for here
Anthropede does make enough sense, I feel. Sure, it's a reference, but I think the uncomfortably human-looking hands and face warrant the name just fine
we are getting 6 standard releases... the roadmaps are purposfully misleading (see Foundations, Ravnica and Pioneer masters, and Mystery booster 2 not appearing on the 2024 one) and I fully expect there to be other reprint sets, and universe beyond commander decks in there as well
Just seeing more of the fallout of ditching the block format. I'd still say you should spend the time to make the videos to fully explore the topics you want to discuss--bending under the pressure of a new release just capitulates the a reality where your attention can't be affixed on anything for more than a month's time.
Honestly, they need to slow down design speed because they're speeding at an alarming rate towards the logical ends of their ideas. The funny thing is, they could split the sets into two pieces, one more for Standard, Modern, or another format, and the other set from the unsplit set into a Commander set. This would not only help solve the "is this a Commander set in disguise" issue, but would also keep the issues with the themes and Natu-types that are an admitted problem.
do you think fear of surveilance is the wanderer's fear considering her upbringing
I think you've thought about it more than its creators ever will.
Ha, this interaction got me
I feel the greatest crime of 2024 is criminally underusing Bloomburrow. That set should have been a flagship, heck it should have had 2-3 sets that explored the plane. We should have had a good 3 to 6 months there, perhaps exploring the different seasons of Bloomburrow.
Yeah, it sucks the most interesting set was cut short bc they did scheduling wrong for Duskmourne's Halloween slop, now it rotating early so they can make all Rotations happen January 1st for the "convenience" of new players (which also means November December sets are basically back to 2 year rotation again)
Yeah, 100%. Bring back 3 set blocks I say
Was it really that interesting?
Aside from being visually pleasing, what is there to take away from it? Parts feel like Stryxhaven and others like Lorwyn.. and a lack of identity (aside from having animals) is not something you want.
Of course "everything could be better if it is better", but as it is, Bloomburrow is lacking an element to make it stick. Maybe WotC knew it and didn't put the effort.
It would have been the ideal plane for block formats.
Yeah, at the very least 2 sets
I think 1 set establishing the plane and another having something happening with the calamity beasts or with the wider plot would've been really cool
The problem with not having blocks of sets anymore is when we get new planes it's just "hey this place exists" and then we move on
I never quite understood what you meant with the set's dying until I realized that actually nobody is talking about Bloomburrow anymore, and I even forgot Ixalan and Eldraine ever happened. Thunder Junction is only still talked about because of how bad the set was thematically
Yeah, it's more in terms of attention. Like once a set comes out we're basically asked to forget it like it never existed and start looking at the next shiny product. Madness
You uh forgot murders at karlov manor i think.
I think all the problems with the theme and tone in Duskmourn all have a common cause: The people making magic cannot understand the difference between iteration and reference. Mark Rosewater has repeatedly said that he can't see any difference between the recent style of referential cards and cards that reiterate well worn tropes, like most of Bloomburrow and Innistrad, and the black knight from Alpha.
The difference is that a reiteration is designed to be appealing for the same reason that the original was. It does roughly the same good thing the original did. A reference does not attempt to reproduce the substance and purpose of the original at all, merely to remind us of it. It's the difference between a new voice telling you an old story, and a new voice telling you ABOUT an old story. Well-executed reiterations stand on their own. You can still get the reference if you know the original work, but without that connection the reiteration just looks more original than it actually is. Superficial references depend on a better piece of media having already done all the work, adding little to nothing themselves. They're an echo of a piece that once said something. it's not more of the meaningful media, it's just a the sign pointing you back to it, and if you don't recognize the original that sign refers to, it tells you nothing.
I'm not just complaining about the movie references being so on the nose here. I think this difference also explains almost everything else that didn't land for you. What are the glimmers? They're a picture of the idea of hope. Why? Because hope is a necessary component of tension, danger, and fear, separating them from pointless misery, and Duskmourn was made by people who do not appreciate the difference between the presence of actual hope and the presence of representations of it; of hope-references. They're serving us the menu and getting confused when we ask for the meal instead of eating the laminated paper.
The one place where you and I differ on Duskmourn is that I loath the nightmare creatures for the same reason: They're anti-glimmers. They represent fears that, while real, aren't threatening in practice; like lost teeth, missing out, and failed tests. Look out, survivors! If you don't keep your wits about you, you might get dropped from the queue for the Marvel secret lairs, or even get a D- at school! Their actual function is so vague that when Jace and Kaito meet one in the story, it doesn't do anything, Kaito doesn't understand how to interact with it, and Jace defeats it by "taking away its dreams". Nothing nightmarish happens. Nothing at all happens. It could have been the incarnation of polka music instead and the scene would play out identically.
This is why the tone is all over the place too. They've publicly said that the mission statement was to make references to lots of things people liked, not to replicate some particular thing that people liked about them all, so they're referencing all sorts of media that did different things for different reasons, and they don't recognize that as a problem because they've lost sight of the importance of meaning. "Remember all these completely different movies that made you feel different ways? Duskmourn is like those! You should feel the way you did when you watched them!". That's why the survivors don't fit in their world. Here, Wizards are no longer expecting us to eat a menu with pictures of meals we like. They want us to eat pictures of nonsense plates assembled from foods we like, like gravy and ice cream. It's silly, but once you've forgotten the purpose of the menu, it probably doesn't seem that way. The laminate will taste just as good as ever.
The tech is also rooted in the same problem. It's a superficial reference to tech with little apparent thought given to what it does, how it does it, or where it comes from. It's covered in glowing screens, but none of them say anything. The staticky TVs are either just TVs, or ghost portals, or both, depending on which source you're reading, because they cared more about them being there than about why, or what that meant. Duskmourn tech is just a slower, more expensive route to the same kind of product that "AI art" makes: The menu they want us to eat has become incoherent and inconsistent, offering nameless things described with food-sounding adjectives.
This is how Chris Cocks is able to be so confident that AI is the future of Magic: Studio X, or at least the people there who get to decide what goes on cards, have already succumbed to Tech Bro Brain Disease and forgotten that art exists and that made things should have uses. They don't know (or at least Mark Rosewater suggests he does not know) about the reason that people value their disciplines, and they are rapidly winding down the creation of anything that couldn't be extruded from a machine: Very soon, Magic will just be pictures of Magic IP characters in the costumes of trendy genres, and pictures of characters from other IPs exactly the same as they always are, and Aaron Forsythe doesn't seem to get why we're not applauding that.
Magic absolutely is going to die because of this, just not in the same hysterical sense that people usually mean when they say that. It's not that the business will collapse and everybody will abandon the game all at once, it's just that it's being replaced at an exponential rate with references to other things, and to itself. Soon, the meaning carried by every magic card that's not about something else entirely will be "Hey, remember Magic? Wasn't it great?"
That's not continuing to iterate. That's a memorial.
Damn, you've said it better than anyone I've seen so far.
"They're serving us the menu and getting confused when ask for the meal instead of eating the laminated paper." VERY good! And I think you're spot on too. Even about the AI stuff. I talk about that a bit in my next video and... ugh....
This is the best yt comment I read in months. It's also absolutely true.
@@RedBobcatGames Having read it back I realize I overstated my case at the end there. Everything I said with regard to Tech Bro Brain Disease and AI-ification is only meant to apply to "creative", not to game mechanics.
This reiteration vs reference thing has been going on for roughly 15 years in western pop culture, closer to 20 in japanese pop culture. The best explanation I've encountered for the phenomena calls it "database consumption", and contrasts it against a more traditional "narrative consumption".
A work designed for narrative consumption is a discrete piece of fiction - it has an identifiable start and end, and it contains everything you need in order to enjoy it. In the context of a story, a narrative consumption work spends a lot of time establishing its characters, setting and premise, and seeks to give all of those things satisfying conclusions to their arcs. In the context of music, a narrative consumption work is an orchestral symphony or a song like Bohemian Rhapsody that tells a specific story.
A work designed for database consumption doesn't (fully) function on its own. Instead, it builds upon a pre-existing "database" of recognisable and enjoyable "symbols" that appeal to consumers independent of any specific work. With database consumption, instead of people being fans of individual stories, people are fans of symbols in the database, and primarily enjoy works based on how they utilise those symbols. In "otaku" culture, this is very highly developed, to the point where virtually any concept can be given a character mascot by assigning a set of symbols to it, and will gain instant popularity. The character "Hatsune Miku", whose popularity recently bamboozled older MTG fans, became successful specifically because of database consumption forces within otaku culture.
Recent MTG sets have all been works of database consumption. They're pulling symbols out of the cultural database - in some cases, very literal symbols, like the cowboy hat - and just presenting them plain: "Member cowboy movies?". That's a problem, because anyone who doesn't member cowboy movies, or who does but was never particularly into them, is not being given any opportunity to become interested in them through the set. Contrast with Theros, which even though pretty databasey was still developed enough that I enjoyed it despite being someone who really doesn't like Greek mythology.
And this is an especially big problem for MTG because the western pop culture database is much less soluble than the weeb database. The weeb database is character elements, which makes symbols pretty context-agnostic. This is because there are very few "anime franchises"; the vast majority of anime are adaptations of manga and novels written by regular authors years earlier, and last 1-2 seasons, meaning that common character elements long outlive any stories that feature them.
In western pop culture, creativity is much more top-down and franchise-led, which means characters rarely get decomposed into their elements and instead get inserted into the database as complete characters, and that means that there are symbols in the database that are tied to concepts of ownership and origin. Even when that decomposition does happen, the database is too silty to create a completely context-agnostic symbol, which results in much more discrete concepts of genre than are seen in the weeb database. The consequence of this is that when you go fishing in the database, you don't catch generic, adaptable symbols to assemble any way you want, you catch specific franchise references that can't be reimagined without losing the appeal. This is why Duskmourn wasn't able to integrate its many genre references into a coherent identity, while horror anime do this pretty successfully: "Blade" never got dissolved into his component symbols, so he's just in the database as "Blade", and the bare minimum familiar symbol to the database consumer is "literally Blade".
My brain read this as another Crimson Vow retrospective, I don't think it understands the idea that Duskmourn could already be over when I haven't even got round to playing it yet.
Yeah, sorry. Foundations now... or wait, is it the race set? Or the Space one already?!
The Battle question seems quite simple, in two parts: Because it's easier to introduce a new card type that interacts in a unique way with other parts of the game (namely combat) than put in provisions within the existing rule body for, in this example, enchantments. And the second bit is for lore reasons: Enchantments are lasting magic effects that someone puts on either creatures, players (auras) or places (non-auras). The invasions of different planes doesn't quite fit any of those molds. Hence: New card type.
Sure, I can see the argument. But I think Saga's would fall into both of those categories and they seemed to work fine as Enchantments
Took me a solid 5 minutes to remember the first set released this year. It felt like it was years ago.
Yeah, it's crazy how much is being thrown at us
I came into magic for real just before eldraine came out last year. I got to enjoy that a fair bit before Ixalan came out, and i utterly adored that, it cemented my love for the game not least because Amalia became my favourite character ever and I got lost learning about the lore through her story.
Now a year on since then, I can't help but feel a little like I've been bait and switched. Ixalan still feels to me like the last time had some proper grounded weighty story to me. Why does it seem as if I've been given a few doses of the good stuff till I i was hooked, and now it's all cut with flour and sawdust?
And of course these worse hits come way more frequently in an attempt to reach that previous high. Hahaha.
Yeah, I agree. I REALLY hope we get the lore back on track, but looking at next year's race cars and spaceships... hmmm
Precisely my fears. I know it's been said but none of these "mtg characters in a new silly hat" gimmicks pull me in at all. I want to learn about the actual lore! I only recently understood what people meant to when they referred to set "blocks" and I'd love to return to that.
congratulations to dr. Hands
I'll pass it on!
Congratulations Doctor!
I didn't really give Duskmourn a chance for three reasons. The first being that I was still mentally focused on Bloomburrow, and didn't feel like committing any headspace to Duskmourn as it was only released a month or two after. Secondly the theme didn't mesh with me at all, as I personally do not think that the 80's vibe contrasts dramatically with the rest of magic, and vibes are a major reason for me even looking at new sets. Thirdly, by the time I got used to Bloomburrow, Foundations had begun and seemingly simultaneously ended their spoiler season.
Yup, and you're not alone. Especially that last part! This time frame is mental
I'm of the camp that thinks Duskmourn is significantly cooler and more interesting than Bloomburrow, but a factor is certainly the fact that I only really had one week to digest Bloomburrow (but not the main one, I was always interested in it)
From a purely gameplay and mechanics angle...Duskmourn is significantly better to me. I know Bloomburrow is beginner friendly which is great and *necessary* but Duskmourn cards made me say "wow, that's cool" way more than Bloomburrow ones
Bloomburrow had a heavy reliance on Token generation too which isn't always great
Congratulations on the graduation, Dr Hands! Let's hope he doesn't end up in any accidents, or he might become Dr Claw.
Haha, I'll pass that on
I actually preferred the two-set block model over the old three-set blocks because so many otherwise good blocks suffered from having lackluster third sets that were running on creative fumes. I think the reason WotC doesn’t want to go back to the block model though is simply the fear of releasing a set that isn’t popular and then having already lined up a sequel set as the next release. So instead we get stuck waiting years for sequels to popular sets because they have to prove themselves first.
Yeah, I can see that. I just wish the last time they did a 2 block set wasn't halloween / wedding theme because I really don't think that did well to sell the concept of blocks being able to work
Honestly, a lot of blocks with 3 sets had worse second sets than third ones (Planar Chaos, Born of the Gods, Planeshift, Homelands back when that was in Ice Age Block, Legions, Conflux, Worldwake... I'd probably say Mirrodin Besieged if the thought of New Phyrexia didn't make me blow a gasket) or were weird cases where both the sets after the first sucked (looking at you, Mirrodin and Innistrad).
Likely I've gotten a lot more bleedy in later years, but I found several of the monsters shown in this video really scary. I am happy not to have collected the set. But I totally agree that the human 20's-something hero characters (with oh so perfect hair and makeup) looked more like from a ghostbusters movie than a nightmarish horror.
I actually found the gremlin token playing with a torchlight cute. I think that was my favourite card from this video.
Ps. and yes, a big congrats to mr hands!
I'll pass the message on. And I actually really love the Gremlins. i think they're a great idea
I think that the inconsistencies you see is the difference between 80s movie horror and Gothic horror. At the same time we saw near unstoppable slasher characters, we also saw Final Girl / Guys who figured out a way to stop them. Usually by overcoming their fear, gaining some insight, or using a special weapon. I think that special something is what the glimmers are supposed to represent. That being said, Anthropede is a total fail, since human centipede released in 2009.
I've seen people say the Glimmers are a Harry Potter reference too, and if that's the case I really don't know what's going on then
16:54 i miss 3 set blocks
I promise, you're not alone
Sadly, because multiple problems (bad draft in some case), the middle block being considered the worse one, if you didnt like the plane / it's mechanic it meant 6 months of little interest for you (and no sales for wotc). Blocks had reasons to be dropped
In general, I think wotc should opt to 4 sets a year, one every 3 months. Which makes the las vegas announcement make me scream into the void
You're not wrong, but my argument to that is always "Then they should hire better world building staff". The answer of just not having blocks always felt like an over reaction to a few sets being duds. That's like saying MKM wasn't well recieved so we should just bin off Magic's IP and have half the new sets be Universes Beyond...
I think WotC could do 2-3 sets for a new plane with 1 for returning planes.
I dunno. Maybe. I still feel like even if we're returning to a plane it should be done in a 3 part story arch. Now, that's not to say the story would have to happen all at once. I'd be fine if say we went back to the same plane the year after, and then the year after again to give us a very long winded 3 act story structure. In fact the wait may even build anticipation
I really wish they would go back to 4 standard legal sets a year. Other cards can be made but dont make them standard legal or quite as big. Great examples for these are final fantasy and Spiderman. Go ahead and make them if you must but dont drag them into standard or bring them into draft environments. Next year I will probably only attend 3 of the six sets draft events. I love magic have ever since I started in RTR but this pace is blistering. With a job and a family it feels like every time I go to draft a new set is out and I have to learn how to draft that one. It's kind of exhausting. Build good things and let them settle. Side note: I really miss the full stories that blocks told and really wish we got a bloomburrow block.
Yeah, I agree. This pace is not doing the game justice
Unfortunately for you Mark Rosewater said every Universes Beyond set will now be standard legal.
Yay?!
i think a confusing part of magic is kind of the idea that when a new set comes out, the older sets are still "relevant" insofar as they are legal game pieces in many environments for someone to pick up and get into. Like someone who just got into magic today could be like "hm would i like a duskmourn bundle, a thunder junction, or a bloomburrow?" and those are all cards that a relevant and legal today.
but its also 100% true that attention pivots in a tiktok fashion immediately off one thing to the next and its really frustrating especially because if Im reading correctly next year will have 6 standard legal sets??? (Wacky Racers, Tarkir, Final Fantasy, Star Wars, Spiderman, and one more UB?). ive attempted to lazily check and see the number of standard sets (aside from CORE sets!) released each year and back in the day it was 3 sets a year... then it sped up a bit to 4 sets a year, then for two years (2018/2019) it was back to 3. And since then it was basically 4 sets a year and if there were 5 it was a year with the non-core core sets (dungeons and dragons and now foundations).
So to sum things up, we've gone from 3 expansion sets, to 4 for a while, to 5 occasionally, and now next year 6 potentially(assuming the last one doesnt get moved)
I have a section on this exact thing in next weeks video. It's crazy!
Yep 2025 is 3 UB sets, 2 UB-but-we're-not-calling-it-UB sets, and 1 Return-to-Magic set.
@@yurisei6732 and the only one I’m bothered about is Tarkir.
Can't wait to have 8 weeks to play every Standard set until further notice!
PS: First 4 weeks were Red Leyline so sucks if you don't like playing against Mono Red.
I'm writing about the state of standard currently, and honestly it's mental with the changes they've announced
@@rinmathews9337 it just hit me next year we have 6 standard sets hope we don't have any extra sets like the AC or fallout sets
Oh, we will. What was announced were the sets for Standard. I expect many MANY more
I like all the Red bobcat's videos
Why thank you very much
For all that i agree with the 3 part story being generally better, I'm not sure it would have suited duskmourn, seing the glimmers hope manifested by the house itself to protect those it terrifies and the nightmares and overlords in the same set shows the dichotomy of a demon that is feeding of the entire world but still is anxious for it's time isolation and doesn't want anyone to feel as bad as it did even tho it is also trying to make them feel way worse
Yeah, true. But this sort of thing makes me wish they'd advertised Duskmourn as it's own plane. By initially pitching it as 80s retro slasher horror I've come to it with expectations, and Glimmers just don't match what was advertised, you know?
I’d like to build out the enchantments as much as possible for five color rooms, so it plays off of what she can do the best. There’s plenty of synergy to work with for all the Eerie triggers, and with all the powerhouse enchantment creatures to help you get through it could be a lot of fun.
Just need a little more mana fixing and I'd be confident with it honestly
There was a card called Manifest that just had the text "Manifest" from the set Fate Reforged. Manifest Dread is a call back to the card Manifest.
Are you sure? I can find "Soul Summons" but even that says "Manifest the top card of your library." and not just "Manifest"
This was a cool set, it was actually the first pre release event I went to and even got 4th place for a 30 man tournament. And duskmourn has like half the number of legendary creatures that outlaws had, so they definitely tried to cut down.
Oh congratulations. I love pre release! And yeah, I think you're right about the Legendaries too. Be interesting to see what'll happen now that Universes Beyond is legal in all formats
Clown as a creature type doesn't hit me too badly because it's the sort of creature type I could reasonably see existing on other planes - the Rakdos totally should have some Clowns, and most old fantasy type planes probably have Jesters, which are basically just clowns (Eldraine for sure, right?). And you can't reasonably say that clown should be something else besides Jester - if that's your job, that's your job.
Comparing it to the on the nose references of Thunder Junction of course just brings up the obvious antithesis of that, which is that Coyote is now a creature type, and that it's fine for there to be six stinking variants on Dog but lord forbid Naga and Snake be separate.
Oh man, don't even get me started! Yeah, it's madness honestly
I don't really like Dusmourn too much thematically, but dammit, in my opinion this set is such a blast to play in Limited from a mechanical standpoint.
I do like the look of the mechanics!
After I watched the video- I decided to see what kind of deck Marina Vendrell could be.
Using *ONLY* cards you and Dr. Hands opened (tell him I said congrats), I made an okay deck with Eerie Triggers as the intended focus with Delirium as a minor backup strategy
That's a lot of fun! I hoped someone would do this, thank you!
@@RedBobcatGames I'd offer the link but the issue is i don't know if you're interested in my take of the deck
Feel free to email it too me, I'll certainly have a read
This sets draft is so good that I'm willing to overlook any weird flavor. But no time to enjoy it, the perpetual hype machine must keep moving
FOUNDATIONS! NO WAIT! RACE CARS! NO WAIT! SPACEMEN! NO WAIT!
The current cadence of releases is insane. Duskmourn feels like it just came out. I'm still not over how OTJ felt like it went out of stores so fast. (mostly because I wanted more packs opened so Thoughtsieze would be cheaper)
I don't know how they expect anyone to keep up anymore.
And yet, now all Universes Beyond will be legal in all formats too. Yay??
I think Anthropede certaimly has human-like elements. The face in the center does look human-like, not quite an actial human face but like an AI imitation of it, which I think might be a not-very-well executed attempt at an Uncanny Valley effect, but more importantly, the Anthropede has human-like arms and hands, as the flavor text references
I don't know, but I'd guess that Duskmourne is supposed to be simultaneously a horror set and a "hopeful" set. There's a card that cares about whether your opponent has a Glimmer creature, and I think that represents the idea - horrifying entities, but you're safe if you can find a Glimmer creature or one of those heroes
Yeah, elements like that I can certainly understand once I give them a moment. But they don't do themselves any favours when upon first glance I think "What's the glimmer doing there?" or "Why is that a movie reference?", you know?
While I do not agree on a lot of minor subjective commentary you presented here, I do agree that DM could have been much better served by splitting it into two or three sets, where each set focuses on one of the somewhat clashing tones we got. Thematically, I would have loved set 1 focusing on genuine horror, with Fears and monsters and freaks and insane survivors; and set 2 focusing on Glimmers, hope, and human resistance. You mentioned the Innistrad trilogy, but I was thinking more of an inversion of Scars of Mirrodin: where that block started with a conflict, and ended with hopes crushed and the "evil" reigning supreme, a DM duology could have started with complete hopelessness, and followed it up with a depiction of those who manage to stand against it.
However, I also think that diluting the variety of tones in the single set would have also diluted the variety of game mechanical elements. The tones may clash in flavor, but the mechanics (which were noticeably tied to flavor) of the set all work incredibly well together IMO, with things like some green and white Fears being capable of tapping your own creatures, triggering their Survivor abilities, evoking a feeling of humans hiding from or outwitting monsters; or Manifest Dread effects flipping over and revealing not a monster, but a human, evoking a feeling of an ominous shadow turning out to be an ally; etc.
My hot take is, I think mood whiplash in media is not an inherently bad thing, though it is definitely an acquired taste, and without an overly productive imagination, it's probably hard to appreciate some of the things I enjoyed about DM.
Very fair take. I thik a return to 3 set blocks that intended to be drafted together may fix some of the mechanics issues, but I also understand it would create new ones too. Tricky
19:30 the art direction of Friendly Ghost reminds me of Hanna-Barbera's Funky Phantom cartoon, where they basically tried to copy their own Scooby Doo formula, with a ghost mascot instead of a dog. Except they also had a dog. And a cat. Who was also a ghost.
It doesn't give me the Casper vibes that people were pointing out is the obvious name reference, so it's not like toddler/preschool levels. But still, vibes are in the grade/middle school era for me when I would hope for at least preteen levels of thriller/horror.
Haha, yeah
I had been writing a big long comment about how I love Duskmourn, and how it brought me back to magic (even if it is for so little time) due to how much I adore this plane, and then defending the cards you were saying weren't quite "horror" enough for you. But I deleted it all because I'm genuinely BAFFLED by some of the things you are saying. Like. Because there are cards where people aren't afraid it's a bad horror set???? What. Huh. What. Like, I don't understand one bit. Like it's a horror set because it's set on a plane that's like "What if cosmic horror was all inside my house," and then we see everyone dealing with being inside that house. And people like, are people. And so try to make the most of it, scrounge around, defend themselves, try to stay alive. The indomitable human spirit versus overwhelming odds and whatnot. Fear becoming as routine as hunger, those that have survived a few things learning that it's steady themselves or become overwhelmed and die, harnessing their fear and anger at that fear to try and fight back, utterly terrified but spiteful enough to power through it and scream as you bury the blade in the rotten things mouth. The subtle horrifying idea that starts growing that maybe the few reprieves: the tech that they are able to recover, the glimmers, the few safe zones, all of it is because Valgavoth, the cosmic horror himself allowed them that sense of control because when he rips it away their terror and utter helplessness will be all the sweeter. I don't know. I just fully think our brains work entirely differently. I love this plane.
I'd have to agree, because yeah I don't agree haha. "The indomitable human spirit" just clashes with the type of horror it appears to me that they're trying to evoke here. Same for "the tech that they are able to recover, the glimmers, the few safe zones, all of it is because Valgavoth, the cosmic horror himself allowed them" just doesn't line up in my head with the Saw movies, or the Shining, or Human Centipede, or Wicker Man, or any of the other movies they're seemingly trying to mimic. These things all thematically clash from what I can see
@@RedBobcatGames Y'see I imagine it like, spoilers for the magnus archives, season 5 of the magnus archives. There is unending terror and nightmares and whatnot, but none of them are actually like *the thing that is the horror* yes, it's the horror for those people in that moment, but that's just whatever the house, and thus valgavoth is putting them through in that moment, just going from nightmare to nightmare. The real horror is the grander plane and the living embodiment of nightmares above it. It's a mismatch of many different vibes bc whatever scares them works. And then the indomitable human spirit thing is just, the glimmers which are their one real defence, which I like to think is actually just a thing valgavoth either permits or perhaps even is the source of in order to not make the fear go stale, while the technology works enough for them to rely on it, but not enough to trust it. I don't know, it really works for me anyway haha.
Yeah, that's fair. I get most of my information on sets from press conferences, creator panels and marketing material, and this set was very much sold to me as a top down designed 80s retro horror set, like Nightmare on Elm street and Friday the 13th etc. And I just don't see it here, or at least I see aspects that very much contradict that ethos. I think that's my main issue
@@RedBobcatGames Valid, I just randomly reccommended a video of the early access arena games, and then got sucked into the vibes of it, then read up on the lore. I'm sure the expectations vastly changes how your first impressions go, which of course colours your whole view of the thing.
@@eveoftheroses3766 Yeah, 100%
Can't tell if the humanoid hands were missed on athropede or if that didn't succeed to point out the body horror in the name enough.
Also, I REALLY wish that they pulled alt survivor arts to showcase the horror of them being hunted. Admittedly, as much I love that design choice, it's unfortunate that one gets the experience of a "monster appearing" at complete random.
As for Anthropede, kind of a bit of both? I think the issue is as soon as I've read the name, I'm already thinking about Human Centipede and now the card has that barrier to overcome to win me over
Duskmourne feels like an engine for Ghostbusters , Chucky and about a hundred other Secret Lairs they didn't get the rights to actually make.
Oh yeah, that feels like the best explanation I've heard so far
showing a statistic of how many viewers are subscribed while you said "some of you" was brilliant!
and yes, the game "COUP" is awesome i love it
a note regarding the feeling of the setting. i have almost 0 knowledge of magic lore and when i looked at duskmourne cards the first time, with the set being called "house of horror" i thought its "ghostbusters but magic", i didnt know it was supposed to be an actualy horror setting xD all the artworks look like they are just acting for a movie shoot
Ha, thank you
The Glimmers are supposed to be the source of hope for the Survivors, their last lifeline against the hunger of the house.
Unfortunately falls through when far too many of the cards depict survivors as competent and fairly unconcerned
I feel like I was just at duskmourn pre release and foundations pre release is this weekend. It's crazy
my main gripe with duskmourn is that it doesnt dive into any of its ideas too much, duskmourn (and maybe bloomburrow) could have benifitted from the old block releases. cause duskmourn has 3 ~ 4ish ideas,the survivors in the house valgavoth's cult with the horrors and the refrences to "modern horror" but no of em are really expanded upon and all of them feel so surface level
Here we go. I say it in the comments of almost every video! But they should bring back 3 set blocks!!
Congrats Hands!
I'll pass it on
I started getting interested in MTG when Bloomburrow came out and officially started playing with Duskmourn and I have to say, it didn’t feel like Bloomburrow had any time in the light at all and Duskmourn certainly feels like a skip too.
But I think that’s intentional.
With Bloomburrow being strictly about cute critters in the woods and Duskmourn being about 80s horror through a MTG lens, I think these sets were pretty well sculpted to be geared towards a more general audiences and less about courting magics already established core demographic. Sure playing to your base is smart but GROWING your base is more appealing from a marketing perspective. So here comes the gimmick sets and Marvel/Final Fantasy/ Sponge Bob crossovers to pull fences sitters like me (I started looking once I heard about MTG x FF and committed because Duskmourn looked neat aesthetically). So Duskmourn not being for everyone and then getting scooped by to sell the next product is for sure what’s happening. “If you don’t like this set, move on to the next one where you could get something you do like.” The next new set of 2025 is MTG Mario Kart so I think that’s what the vibe is going forward into the new era.
I’m down to see what the hell, as Foundations has the old school juice that I remember from when I was wee so hopefully these Foundations cards will last into the new era, but the new sets that are supposed to be “new MTG “ feel a bit like the others - Gimmicky.
I don't like it, but I suspect you're right. Oh, and I do agree Foundations looks like something I'll need to keep an eye on
I think with that release schedule they should cut set sizes to something around 200 cards to give more spotlights to cards they make
Sure, but honestly just more time with sets would be fine too I think
As someone who likes the ideas of the glimmers as litteral glimmers of hope; I agree with you that they don't make a lot of sense in this set. In my opinion due to poor execution, there are many ways I could see them fitting in better with the set, but the most obvious one to me would be if the rest of the set actually felt scary like Innistrad, where they could be one of things that keeps some survivors alive/sane as they hold onto a darker world, but with nearly every glimmer just being a bright animal with little context in a tonally messy set at the very least, they unfortunately remain in my head as only an interesting idea rather than compelling cards.
Yeah, I agree. I can see that working. Make them rarer and actually FEEL like a Glimmer of hope in all the darkness
Congratulations dr hands !!!
I'll pass it on
I will say a main point I agree with in the video is that multi set blocks were better than magic's current release structure. I will also say however that I dont think I have ever seen a magic set that actually successfully narrates the themes of the plane and story of the world through its cards alone. Even some of the most evocative planes fail at that aspect as I think no magic set has truly achieved this. A big example of this is how the glimmers in Duskmourn are magical manifestations of the survivor's hope and persistance. No player would rightfully be able to get that aspect of the world building without reading the story. I believe that harshly criticizing the existance of these glimmer cards saying they clash with the sets theme would be like saying the disturb cards from crimson vow clash with the set theme because they show mostly kind and helpful spirits. I know that i cant truly convey my thoughts in a youtube comment but I hope at least some of my sentiment came through in that just dismissing elements of a set as off theme just ends up feeling not genuine when the sets main story isnt accounted for. (I will say the countless refrences and bad jokes are just bad for the set attempting to convey story through its cards)
I agree, and I think you make a good point. I was looking at it more from a game design perspective, before the narrative would have been written. I imagine on a white board somewhere the words "80s retro horror" was written, and I just can't get my head around how we ended up with glimmers from that. it's less that I think they don't fit the world, and more than I don't think they fit (what I assume) was the original design goal, if that makes sense?
I do think magic has been completely flopping when it comes to top-down design for their recent sets. Both MKM and OTJ failed at making their set themes fit into the magic setting. Especially with Duskmourn, I think that the top-down design hurt the set in a lot of ways as the story and mechanics that were made are actually rather interesting. Though the constraint of the 80s horror aesthetic ended up setting expectations at a completely different place and creating a mish-mash cacophony of conflicting asthetics from the 80s horror to the MTG unique setting elements.
No set is ever going to perfectly communicate all the ideas that went into it, but many sets have successfully communicated a world that's interesting within the cards alone. In those sets, the external lore text was an interesting expansion, rather than a substitute. For example, the Return to Ravnica block does a really good job communicating the personality of each faction through its cards, and showcasing an evocative faction war. I didn't need to read any lore to know how cool I thought Izzet and Orzhov were, and indeed I didn't read any lore until the D&D sourcebook, I just imagined my own Ravnica based on what I saw in the cards, which turned out very close to what Ravnica actually was, because the cards establish the plane well.
Contrast with Strixhaven, which has a very similar premise, but where after iirc 4 years I still don't know what the RW, UR or WB factions are supposed to be about.
@dojopar6574 Yes, you've summed it up perfectly. That's exactly where I'm at
I’m not the biggest fan of most of the set but the fears and the overlords knocked it out of the park in the horror department both ingame and in lore the overlords and Valgavoth himself are so oppressive on the field, lord of pain is downright in control of the game state when he’s active and the impending mechanic for the overlords makes it actually genuinely anxiety inducing if you can’t dispel them and the turns are counting down before a juiced up win condition smashes through the wall like the koolaid man, the survivors look kind of goofy but I like it in a way since it shows that you never know what skills from your old life will help in this disastrous grim situation they find themselves in
Man, I need to actually play more Duskmourn properly. You've made this sound sick
@@RedBobcatGamesyeah it really is a shame how they made so many of the commons really silly when there’s so many awesome rares and mythical the rooms are cool too, I hope if we go back to this plane we get to see the Razorkin and their carnival of terror more, large portion of them appear to be clown based or these hulking butcher monsters that barely resemble humans and are like the biggest day to day threat on the plane since the giant moth demons are more of an overarching fear, but there’s only like three or four cards for them
I'd like to return, but this time for them to pitch it as it's own thing. I think the marketing of "This is an 80s retro horror movie" has harmed it in the end
@ yeah I feel that should’ve stayed for the collectors cards like the movie poster super rares things like that are cool but they shouldn’t be as frequent as they were, humor also has a place in MTG ofc but I feel it should be things like the goblins how it’s still semi grounded but hilarious for cards like goblin diplomat to be so bad at his job he causes a mass brawl things like that
I played the prerelease and got an almost fully functional Marina deck, which I actually built afterwards (Called it my "Magnetic Rose" deck for the Memories anime🌹)
That's fun. You know thinking on it I can't remember ever having built more than 2 colours at a pre-release. I guess I'm a coward haha
notable that when maro mentions less legendaries he says non UB sets, and since they make up half of all premere sets now, we still will get plenty of commander cards in premere sets to destroy metas and to make feel bad moments, beyond getting rolled by the spongebob, freddyfazbear, condement man infinite.
Oh man, I didn't even make that connection but yeah you're totally right
Duskmourn really just misses the ball for me for several reasons. Firstly, it's yet another set this year, on top of everything else. Not that I really bought anything this year, but this is fighting with everything else for relevancy for me. I don't want to imagine how exhausting it must get for other players, especially Standard players. Don't even get me started on Bloomburrow barely getting time to be relevant before they shoved this set out the door.
Secondly, it's setting. I think it's a bit of a weird one, even for Magic. A haunted house that feels impossibly huge on the inside, like it's a plane of it's own, can totally work, but as a plane outright? It feels weird. I think it would've been more effective if it was on somewhere simmilar to Innistrad, or even outright Innistrad, as a mansion taken over by a deranged witch planeswalker, or something worse perhaps. In fact, if this were a set block, you could have built up to the mansion itself, and it would've worked much better. Show the world outside of the building, and then show us how downright strange and horrifying the mansion itself was. Again, if you portrayed this plane as instead a haunted house that was plane-like on the inside, it would've been fucking awesome. Supposedly it started out as a plane, and turned into what it is now, which is fine, but I think having two sets for inside and outside of the mansion would've been pretty damn neat too.
I'm willing to give it a bit more thought on that one though, see if it actually grows on me or not ultimately. For now though, it feels a bit off.
But lastly, the biggest issue I've got, is it's modern influences. This could've actually been an absolutely fantastically presented plane, and it wouldn't be able to save itself from just feeling like something entirely out of place for what Magic is, which to me, is rooted hard into fantasy. It's not to say sci-fi can't work, but it needs to clearly be fantastical looking. It's why I thought Neon Dynasty fell entirely flat for me, because it was clearly just trying to be the Cyberpunk set. This set on the flipside, feels more like a Stranger Things set, or whatever you want to ultimately call it.
Whilst it's artwork is genuinely phenominal, shit like modern looking TVs and the likes just don't work for Magic. If anything, it kills the fantastical vibe Magic has completely. Even Thunder Junction, as bad as that was, still tried to feel like it was believable for something you could expect from Magic. Hell, Duskmourn makes Thunder Junction look good by comparison, and that pains me immensely to say.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. It's modern influences are the biggest reason I can't get into this set at all, because it feels far removed from what makes Magic cool to me. And I really wanted to like this one too, because it had such cool ideas and artwork. Apparently now though, it's a big ask to just have Magic sets feeling like they belong in Magic now.
This was not a good set in my eyes, regardless of whether or not the cards are mechanically good or not. Couldn't care less if a card was amazing or busted, if it feels off, I ain't running it.
And now we're getting race cars and space ships... joy...
@@RedBobcatGames Tell me about it. At least we got Tarkir coming up.
I have reservations, but I remain hopeful
I loved the cards. The commander decks are good. The new lands make limited better IMO just wish it was at minimum a 2 set block
Yeah, and I think that would have helped the narrative too
Wow, I didn't recognize half of the reference from this set to movies.. It just makes me sad because I thought they were related to the story (which I've given up on) not just for jokes. Gives me little hope that they're going to take magic story seriously anymore especially in combination with these universe beyond sets
Oh yeah, SO much is movie references. It's not every card but it feels like it
The problem might be the Horror they are referencing. This feels like a spooky action movie, not a real Horror World. To put it another way, the point is to have fun fighting Ghosts, not be scared of them. And yes, it is very jokey.
Oh perhaps, maybe you're right and it is all supposed to be just a big themepark ride
@@RedBobcatGames I think the problem is they've tried to do both without really understanding either. They want it to be an oppressive and genuinely terrifying setting- but in trying to pull a different design approach to what Innistrad had they ended up pulling too many things like Ghostbusters and the Goonies as inspiration. Even things like Saw, Halloween, and Friday the 13th are pretty fucking goofy-looking once you get two or three sequels in. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't strictly hate the idea of "Magic characters but with aesthetically flavoured hats on."
That being said, Spice8Rack's most recent video made me appreciate the setting a lot more than I initially did.
Yeah, I really wish my video had come out a week earlier because I feel Spice addressed / echoed / examined a bunch of stuff I'd raised as questioned here
I think your read on some of the art is a little uncharitable. Discomfort is an important part of horror. The first two character arts you highlighted were clearly uncomfortable, even if they weren’t abjectly horrified.
“Glimmers of Hope” are important for maintaining a horror tone. If everything is all gloom and doom all the time, the horror loses its edge. It becomes drole and rote. The Glimmers are that thing, they’re a thing that keeps the remaining survivors clinging to hope (And they’re apparently engineered by the magic of the house to keep them hopeful so that crushing that hope is more satisfying.)
Humor is also an important part of horror. Levity helps contrast the horror, making the horror more horrible.
They all fit the tone.
I do agree that having a 3-phase set would have made this more apparent and helped with the theming, though.
Edit: Also with Anthropede I didn’t even think of Human Centipede. It has the upper half of a human face and a bunch of human eyes, it has humanoid features. Anthropede fits without the pun.
What I find most jarring is the way the marketing sold it to us. Because, yeah it fits with the narrative, but this was initially pitched as a retro 80's slasher movie set. That's the reason I find the Glimmers and what not so out of place. Because you're right, it is important for a horror setting, but it's not something you see a lot of (and certainly not in the form of glowing animals) in things like Friday the 13th, and Nightmare on Elm street, which is what they'd said this set was supposed to be. I even find the Saw references out of place because those films are so modern. I think the world builders, card designers and marketing team really need to get their ducks in a row
i spent my whole draft experience enjoying the monsters instead of bitching about the survivors
The monsters are the best part of the set, easily
That two tone art IS nice! Random thought, just throwing it out there, take it or leave it… favourite art cards video?!
OOooohhh, it would just all be Innistrad though I expect haha. I could never see past the rose tinted glasses!
@@RedBobcatGames Deffo Innistrad, but I do like Bloomburrow and honestly I quite like the Conquistador look of the Vampires in Ixalan.
I agree, but that Heron Moon is where my heart belongs
@@RedBobcatGames Thst makes complete sense. That entire gothic horror vibe and amazing artwork was what got me into Magic. If I was asked to choose my favourite artwork from just that set I wouldn’t be able to decide!
I was thinking more those kinds of cards that break the mould a little. Do a different style.
I haven't seen the show, but it reminds me of Stranger Things, and strikes me as being an action show in a horror setting.
Yeah, I can see that. But I still don't get the Glimmers though
Do you think Magic Foundation is the new Magic 30?
oh hey, congrars to Dr. Hands ^^
I'll let him know!
Have you considere make an analysis like this of a Flesh and Blood TCG set?
I was really excited to try out MTG for the first time with Bloomburrow. But because of all the news about Duskmourn and universes beyond that happened concurrently i got burned out on MTG before i could even try out the set.
That's a shame. And that pace seems to be speeding up too
for me this year duskmourne and bloomburrow were the sets of interest for me and waited for so before and after these sets I'm basically waiting for the new year for tarkir and unfortunately a pushed back lorwyn
That Lorwyn news breaks my heart honestly
I play standard and am still making decks focused on OTJ cards, was just starting to really get interested in bloomburrow but duskmourne released a week later lmao
Yeah, it's madness
You are saying R.I.P duskmourn im saying R.I.P MTG
Oh trust me, that video is next week
It truly is a shame how WotC is cannibalising their own sales by not giving them room to sell. Hell, my local game stores tend to sell out on magic product real fast and they have no reason to stock more because the new thing is coming next week anyways.
Yeah, it's mad honestly
Creatively bankrupt set
Yeah, some of the story telling I think is really good. But the authors seems to have to work around the cards and... they're lacking I find
As a new player (joined last week of bloomburrow) I don't really understand the theme issues.
As far as I can see it, MTG isn't really a "high fantasy" theme and more of a "dimension hopper" theme. We had cyberpunk futuristic sci fi, story books, detectives, cowboys, furry creatures and 80s horror.
Even caverns of Ixalan to me was just dinosaurs and pirates from what little I've seen. There is very little high fantasy from what I've seen. The "magic" in magic is just a vessel for them to say "what if haunted house dimension"
This is why I'm also not interested in Tarkir, but have a fair amount of hype for Aetherdrift. Races through the multiverse sounds cooler then just dragons.
Yes, you're not wrong. And that's why the olds like me are so sad to see what once was high fantasy become what we have now. The cloesest thing I have to compare the feeling to, is imagine if they brought back Ian McKellen as Gandalf for a new trilogy of Lord of the Rings films, but this time he was joined by Jack Sparrow, Jason Bourne, Scooby-doo and Neo from the Matrix. This wasn't a spin off, this was a main line canon LotR trilogy, and all the people watching for the first time would just assume that's what Lord of the Rings always was
@RedBobcatGames yeah, I can understand how older fans would mourn the loss of identity.
Sadly I'm one of them
I got back into Magic in 2024.
Apparently, that was a mistake.
It's like having a firehose blasting diarrhea aimed at your bedroom window. What the fuck do you mean we're getting spongebob cards?
Ugghhhh.... tell me about it
Honestly, I’m really not a fan of Duskmourn. I think Bloomburrow was a much better set and would have preferred it if they’d sacked of Duskmourn, kept with Bloomburrow for a month or so more before Foundations, which I’ve not met anyone who is interested in. My LGS told me today they’ve had no pre-orders.
Oh well that's troubling news!
I recommend the new video by Spice8Rack on the horror of Duskmourne. it's a great exploration of the ways the set references, approaches, and uses modern horror media, both failings and successes. for instance, the art direction strayed away from depicting direct (gory) violence on the human characters, which might have trickled down into how the mood of the survivors is all over the place
who knows, though. I certainly did find some of the monsters scary, at least
I actually face palmed a bit when that video released because I felt like my video was asking the question "What is Duskmourn?" and Spice's vid was saying "This is what Duskmourn is". Which would have worked really well IF mine had come out first haha. Oh well
I was pretty satisfied with the set. I even decedent to make a full commander room deck and that worked out great so far
Oh that's fun. Is the whole deck 100% Duskmourn? Cos I'm a fan of that sort of deck building
A friend of mine did it like 50% from the set but a working 5 color deck to be good you need beeter land base and need some core cards not fit for standard games@RedBobcatGames
Yeah, lands will always be the issue in a deck like that
@@RedBobcatGamessadly no. I needed some land support and some other options, but I did create the land base from that 5 color precon that no one ever buys. Also took some of the board vipes from it. Works pretty good and I did include all the rooms
I think WOTC want people to start skipping about every other set. See how 50% of 2025 magic will be Universes Beyond, and they don't expect every player to like every universes beyond, see maros blog especially. So like, don't give in to the hype cycle, and realize that one is not obligated to draft the new set if you liked the old one better. I mean standard is going to shift, but the shift rate in standard feels as much meta based as card based at this point.
Yeah, see I'd agree except they're all legal in all formats now. I don't see how anyone can skip anything any more and remain competitive. It's mad!
@@RedBobcatGames You can skip drafts and buy singles
More importantly, with an 18 set standard, which seems to be the goal, that means roughly 3 cards a set on average for a 60 card deck, which is not that many singles. Since you tend to play playsets, it means you can skip sets
For instance, I play standard aggro. There were approximately 3 cards from dsk that I cared about on power level. That makes 12 singles, which is not that many cards
True, but I'm not sure why WotC's goal would be for me to play less of something I love. Like if Magic comes out, I want to play it, otherwise where do I draw the line you know?
Nice format. I mean the killing of three birds, not the new Standard.
Critical drinker made a video on depiction of men in modern cinema. Well worth seeing.
Also the funky gadgets... jeez this set is stupid.
I liked my use of the phrase "Gameboy-ification" because I think that's spot on if I do say so myself
Another excellent video! It's a damn shame how fast things are and how it's only getting faster!!
I use to be able to pride myself on memorizing most of the cards in a set and brewing but now it just feels mind numbing....
That being said I am fond of the art and mechanics for this set, not a fan of the silly outfits though!
Why thank you very much. And I'm actually glad I made this vid because it's made me appriciate Duskmourn all the more
Blink and you'll miss it seems to be the got to WoTC marketing strategy these days. I didn't even know Foundations was this upcoming weekend until I asked in store. And to think, I still haven't opened my pre-release box for Duskmourn yet, its on my pile of to record stuff. Overall the set was okay, few cards I like but its really gone nowhere as things go, no real lasting affect on whats played locally. Now, I don't remember where I heard this but I do recall someone stating that Duskmourn is a hybrid of two sets including what was to be an "un" set. Assuming this to be the case, may provide insight into why some of the vibes are off. I for one can see that being the case, tho overall I think the set was alright to good on the quality scale. However it didn't come close to Bloomburrow in quality or enjoyment factor.
Oooh, I remember hearing that too actually. Would be interesting if it's true
@@RedBobcatGames It would be interesting. If proven true though, it may mean that other sets have had similar treatments, given that they plan sets years in advance. Obviously this is pure speculation but I honestly wouldn't put it past WoTC to do it
It takes every chance to take serious any aspect of the horror in this set, seeing the characters of the cards dressed like Back to the Future meets Ghostbusters sponsored by Nintendo and dressed by Michael Jackson for Thriller
It sometimes it stops looking like horror movies memes and starts just looking like an 80's fashion meme
Yeah, as fun as your comment was to read I agree and it's awful
Bruv I have not even finished my group’s draft and already Foundations is here? Actual War Crime that WOTC have done this at least twice now. I’m still going to try and get boxes at later dates for our group tho.
TOO LATE FOR THAT! IT'S PREVIEW TIME FOR RACECARS, SPACEMEN AND SPIDER-MAN!!!
A 5 color Room Deck with only like 4-5 Rooms doesn't seem like it would be good, even if you technically made a legal deck I don't think it would work properly.
Oh yeah, almost certainly not! But it is possible at least!
Good video
Thank you
As somebody who only plays magic casually ... The rate of releases is far to high. It also creates in a relatively short amount of time to many new mechanics i have to deal with next itme i play magic. (i often have 3-4 months that i don't play as timings just don't allign with friends who play more often then me)
Yeah, I compeletly agree. It's wayyy too much
Battles are battles because they can't be attacked. How you wanna attack permanent without hp? Also they enters prevents from sac to turn other side, It'll be too easy to transform them
Battles can be attacked, unless you mean they couldn't be attacked if they were enchantments? And if that's the case just make Battle a subtype with in built mechanics around removing counters when they take damage. There's already plenty of creatures that function that way, and a few enchantments that are very similar
I think you're right about how this set is confusing because there's multiple themes. When you said maybe it was suppose to be a three arc set...i thought it's possible that the set got rushed out as a catch all "halloween" set meant to be released in time for the holiday.
I think weirdly it was supposed to be more of a Christmas set that got moved forward due to the introduction of Foundations. But who knows at this point
i get that they aren't sending you money, but if zatu sent you a box for free, then this video is technically "sponsored" by them since they funded the means for you to make it.
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that there needs to be some sort of obligation attached for it to count. They didn't know I was going to feature it in a video when they sent it, and I've been sent other stuff that I haven't featured too. Like, I'm happy to recieve stuff but as I said in the vid I had a bunch of ideas and this was getting made with or without the cards, so I wouldn't say they funded it. I could well be wrong though, but from what I've seen the major rules seem to be "be clear about the nature of the relationship" which i think I've done here. But again, no expert
Shoutout to Duskmourn for managing to alienate both people that don't like horror and people who do. Truly, WotC's creative acumen knows no bounds. Maybe sticking to UB is for the best - slavishly taking orders from corporate IP-holders on how to represent their properties is a better fit for their creative abilities.
Yeah, it's really rough and looks like next year won't be much better
Rooms kick ass
I'm still yet to play with them, but I'll interested to see how I find them
While I'm not buying Magic anymore, it's not because of weird tonal shifts in the premier sets. The game is 30 years old, I don't blame designers for feeling that they need to expand the pool (though the specific implementation of magic tech here is particularly underwhelming). It's because Hasbro is rotten through and through, and they don't deserve another goddamn dime from me.
Preach!
I'd play it.
Yeah, it has some good stuff going on
Step 1 for your cuts: you're not playing that sextuple-black card in a 5-color deck.
Well I might try, but then I'm like that in Commander haha
There is too much product, and 6 premier sets a year doesn’t help.
I’m hyped about foundations cos it’s essentially a good core set.
And part of what makes core sets good is the lack of story, it can have anything from any plane cos it’s a card worth playing.
I’d love a yearly structure with a core set and a 2-3 set block, with maybe a flying visit to another plane to fill a gap. But no way are wotc doing that.
I wanted more time in bloomburrow, I’m already focused on foundations. To me duskmourn only existed for the weekend I could play the red leyline deck in bo1.
Aesthetically Duskmourn is trying to be horror without being Innestrad, and well it’s not Innestrad. The plane’s slightly whimsical 80s tech is the best part of that difference
Yeah I agree. And I too am excited for Foundations. It looks good!
Great summary 👌 👏 👍
Thank you very much!
I think the biggest problem with using the survivors as the frame of reference is that they're not stand-ins for people new to the plane (IE us) they are stand-ins for the final girl after the movie. They've lived and survived and adapted to their situations on the planes, which is why it's all the more terrifying when we see them scared. What makes the monster hunters scared? Also when we see the survivors losing, we are also supposed to feel the dread that dying horribly is inevitable. We don't see any older survivors (I should say not that I recall or could find but I could be wrong here) which leads us to believe there aren't any.
Also toby is a weird thing because the lore of the beasties is that they are friendly but scary because they're obviously monsters, but he took the time to find out what they were and so he knows he's being protected by a big bad thing that can probably hold its own against the other monsters.
That guy with the book seems kinda old. But also, I think you're probably right about the survivors. But then that makes me circle back to "So what is this set then?". Because if it is a throw back to 80 retro horror, then surely the survivors wouldn't be grizzled veterans like you suggest because the people in those films never are. I just don't get what they were going for here
Anthropede does make enough sense, I feel. Sure, it's a reference, but I think the uncomfortably human-looking hands and face warrant the name just fine
I guess, but I can't not see Human Centipede when I see it, you know?
This sucks. I was so hyped for Duskmorne but I’ve barley been able to play the set I got ONE GAME using cards from the set. ONE
Sorry, it's all Foundations now! Then Race Cars and befor you know it, Space!
Well, heh, at least next year we're only getting 6 big releases... v-v
we are getting 6 standard releases... the roadmaps are purposfully misleading (see Foundations, Ravnica and Pioneer masters, and Mystery booster 2 not appearing on the 2024 one) and I fully expect there to be other reprint sets, and universe beyond commander decks in there as well
Yup, next year is going to be A LOT
Just seeing more of the fallout of ditching the block format.
I'd still say you should spend the time to make the videos to fully explore the topics you want to discuss--bending under the pressure of a new release just capitulates the a reality where your attention can't be affixed on anything for more than a month's time.
I'd agree, but part of me won't do it out of spite. If Wotc don't care enough to spend time with their sets, then why should anyone else. You know?
Glimmers are like Patronis sprites from Harry Potter
I suppose, but then I'm back to the question of "Why is Harry Potter in this 80s retro slasher set?"
Too many sets in too short a time frame!
Tell me about it!
i don't know if it's a problem of art direction or artists in general, but everything seems so soulless and "netflixed" :(
Good word, and I very much get you. It's very corporate and safe
Now that we’re getting 6 standard sets and who knows how many non-standard sets in 2025, you probably won’t have time to make ANY videos
I'm scripting for next week currently and basically just made that exact point!
Honestly, they need to slow down design speed because they're speeding at an alarming rate towards the logical ends of their ideas.
The funny thing is, they could split the sets into two pieces, one more for Standard, Modern, or another format, and the other set from the unsplit set into a Commander set.
This would not only help solve the "is this a Commander set in disguise" issue, but would also keep the issues with the themes and Natu-types that are an admitted problem.
Yeah, completely. And maybe then we'd be given a little more breathing room to actually enjoy the set before they announce the next one
Sets coming way too fast ⏩
PREACH!