Cant wait to see how this engine turns out. Having a '18 114 heritage and having to replace the oil pump and the cams looking very worn at 32k miles im just gonna sit this one out for a few years.
Can’t wait to see the bike! Thanks for all the info! Very interesting stuff Harley is up to. I sure hope all their new designs and technologies work as specified cause they really do need a reliable way to cool these big engines down.
Warning! Better be better than the all SE 114 kit that went in my 2018 M8 LR when it was brand new. The SE valve spring went 'kaput' at just 13K miles. Told the dealer to FO and install S&S valve springs when they wanted to replace them with new SE.
Harley owners will complain about everything, but Harley dealt with the heat back in 2017 when the m8 first came out. Those who tamper with the bikes, with aftermarket tuners, shut off Harley safety features. They also raise the engine idle rpm from 800 to a twin-cam,1000 rpm.
The M8 has been a great answer to heat for sure. Mine for sure runs cooler than my last Twin Cam. The best modification to improve rider comfort is to dump that cat in the header pipe!
Most cars and even trucks now run very thin oil due to the cam phasers. Im curious if HD will spec a thinner oil than their normal 20w50. With the high temps HD engines normally run that cam phaser won't last long.
Funny how they use a phaser for cam timing. Not that it makes that much of a difference. The early engine cams were gear driven n S&S has a gear driven setup for the Twin Cams. I suppose the phaser is used to make up for the cam chain slop as the chain wears out. The other thing I observed is that this system will run quieter because the oil acts as an insulator n cushion for the action of the cam n valve train...
@@ITFZone I can tell you why, it is because of EUR 5+ norms, we will move from 5 to + and it is already known from exhaust manufacturers that it will make less DB.
Sure we can dig into that, there is no oil cooler so it looks to be very Twin Cam in design. Basically all of the M8 oil cooling passages around the heads has been replaced by water.
Correct the only thing up front is the very small radiator which has a fan. When I rode the bike the fan was not noticeable at all and really did not run when you shut off the bike, only a couple of seconds.
Really good information - I was wondering how the new engine works. After a couple of bad experience with my Pan America, I'll surely wait several years before even thinking about an upgrade tho.
The early bugs with the PanAm certainly put a bit of a cloud over the reliability. It has still proven to be a contender in the adventure category but would love to see the middle weight version released. Anyhow stay tuned I will share everything I find!
I imagine that won't be an issue, but with this, the days of a low idle are over. These bikes are gonna need to be at 950 minimum and turning it down at all is going to cause serious issues.
This is quite similar or same as VANOS used since the mid to late 90s car motors like BMW. So you can expect similar reliability 😅 and occasional solenoid diagnosing and replacements.
Very interesting. Have you already ordered your new CVO? I live in the Milwaukee area and want to see one first before ordering. I'm sure I will find one next weekend with all of the festivities. I ride a 2015 Ultra Limited w/SE 100, its been great, but I'm ready to upgrade.
Yes I have had my place in line since October of last year! I was guessing that this may be the year we saw a redesign. Write back as to your findings at the party! I wish I was there!
@@ITFZone i noticed the sound from the videos, that it does sound meaner. I was curious if that’s due to cams or what. Speaking of cams, wonder if vvt will change the game for aftermarket cams… exciting times in the motorcycle world
Actual Harley manuals are available from your parts department. As bikes have been out for awhile you will find other options like from Clymer. Look at Haynes.com
Good info! I have mine on order too, have an Ultra Limited Apex currently. Hope to get a date, vin or any solid update after the "release" this weekend at the festival, just have the confirmed order so far! Do you already have an eta assuming you ordered one?
Great video... time will tell if they have tackled the overheating issue. Do you know if they are also running an oil cooler/fan combination? I would assume they are. As a buyer, I would wait several years before considering this new engine. If the M8 oil pump and sumping issues in the 17-19 model years is any indication, this new design will also have some bugs. And, with the price of these new HDs, I have zero interest in being their test rat. HD should provide a 5 year warranty at no cost to the buyer for all new engine combinations in their first year models. With that said, I believe HD will have to go to a full water jacket cooling setup in the near future to compete with Indian's current engine. They will have to for EPA reasons eventually. As a buyer, I want engine reliability and longevity. To keep these M8s from exploding due to excessive heat, owners are installing very expensive cooling modifications. Instead of $4000 paint upgrades, HD should be focusing on keeping the engines cool. My two cents :-)
There is a fan behind the radiator but not aware of any secondary fan over the oil cooler. The video was not clear as to where the oil cooler sits. If this system works it will be a good compromise to full liquid cooling and hopefully carry us farther into the future. I know Europe is being challenged to require all motorcycles be zero emissions by 2035. Would be great if this motor design could have that long of a run. Appreciate your comments!
Can I ask you a favor. I'm waiting to see if my login is accepted. Could you tell me the torque specs of the top tree bolt (the one that screws I to the stem?
@ITFZone thank you! You're channel has been so valuable to me! You are one of the reasons why I pulled the trigger on a 2023 CVO Road Glide! Thank you for the specs and your content! 🙏🏽
It's going to be a very weird sounding engine. The M8 already sounds very different to all other Harley engines; it may not be immediately obvious but if you hear it side by side with any other Harley engine, it's totally different. VVT is going to make it sound like something other than a Harley
Have to watch the BBB see how many pages they get on this one . the M8 had 3500 in the first year Voided warrantee saying they over revved the engines . Putting the Bad engine design on the buyer sucks
@JCcanU per my insider this new motor has been having lots of issues yet its going to be released irregardless. HD will pass it along to their customers just like they did with the Twin cam 88 with their garbage tensioners that were destroying motors
Wow I have not heard that. I am still getting this month. I think the expectation is some will ship this week as folks get to touch them this week in Milwaukee.
Welp it looks like Harley just drove up the price tag for all this innovation, it'll be fun to see how doing a simple cam swap on a VVT system will be.
Will a cam swap even be necessary with VVT? The main reason to swap cam is where you want your power curve. The main reason for VVT is to widen the power band all together. Only thing you can't change is the lift with a software tune. There are stock Ford coyotes that have a loopy idle from a software tune.
Well it looks like Harley has moved away from it with the ST and 117 CI motors. Not hearing of any failures thus far with the 121 VVT's but time will tell the story!
Eventually with Harley coming out withall these bigger displacement engines they will eventually have to have the cylinders and heads both liquid cooled, Harley Davidson engineers must of forgotten that the cylinders get hot too. If the temperature reaches over 250° the piston rings will break. And those cylinders are massive in size. You could almost fit a small dinner plate inside perfectly. With bigger cylinders comes more heat. You have more air and fuel going in Makin a much bigger explosion inside thus the byproduct is heat, and alot more of it, plus they could redesign the crank pun to be squared off on both ends instead of them being rounded, that will gurontee the flywheels will always stay true. They won't go out of balance and make the crankshaft go out of 0. Like the twin cam motor did. Every reliability issue they have they need to fix all these problems and make Harley Davidson a reliable product, it's 2024, Harley Davidson shouldn't be having any reliability issues anymore. If they make an engine with zero vibration and fully liquid cooled their customers will be alot happier, especially when they know, that they don't have to keep taking their bikes to the repair shop. Keep the push rod design but make it fully liquid cooled, they are going to have to do that anyway, the bigger the cylinders the more heat they produce. I have studied the internal combustion engine for well over 30 years. I have worked on many different types of engines. People are paying alot of money for these bikes, its time that Harley Davidson build a quality engine
It is a love affair with the brand and the experience. I think many would say that their HD motors have been reliable and many would say they fail way too often. Can they make a perfect motor? Possibly but would the Harley fans consider it a Harley? Appreciate your comment and for sure not disagreeing.
L would not buy the first year engine . l bought the first year m8 and got 5000 miles and the engine went down .it took 2 mouths to get my bike back .tire pressure was very low but the dealer said they checked it ,oil was low same BS L would guess all the parts and low oil pressure . oil changes would be often .it took 4 years to get the oil pump right in the m8 L would wait 3 years before buying .
For sure the M8 oil pump created issues for many. At least with my now first 6 months with this new M8 version I can report no motor issues and really happy with the performance and gas millage. It is really a different experience from my 2018 117 M8.
I know LOL! Now living with the bike I am not so sure what I was worried about. However, having a cooling fan running when you shut off the bike is still something I am not used to. There is a big part of me that still craves the more vintage experience at times.
The coolant..cooler..the coolant tube....coolant goes in an S shape.....next the coolant goes into the coolant cooler.... the then cooling cooler collant cooling system cools the cooling coolant to cool the bikes coolant to then cool the bike.....coolant.
Just bought this bike. I so regret it. At 6'3" the bike does not fit. So Harley davidson is primarily owned by bikers. Alot of bikers are well over 5'7". This bike wwy to small. 54k out the door. I am so pist!!
Mike! Bummer for sure, nothing like spending a small fortune to not have it fit. The bike for sure has a smaller feel but I think technically its more lighter weight than physical size. The seat is taller which is good for taller legs but way forward. I think the bars are perfect for me at 6'1". But I get what you are saying the bike has a smaller feel. When I test rode the Street Glide I knew there was no way I could be happy with it compared to the current versions. Very cramped feeling to me. I think the RG is a better fit for a taller rider but its not the same as my 18. Each person is different so I cannot advise what's best for you but I will say as I have put more time on the bike I am really enjoying the 121 motor and the "light" handling compared to my 18. Its different, not all in good ways but its sure fun to give it the beans! All the best to you, let us know where you end up.
You speak to the overall expectation of a Harley. Will it still be able to deliver on the experience or will it just become just like every other modern bike.
I heard "low oil pressure" and had flashbacks 😬
But this will probably be a badass engine in about three years.
Fingers crossed for sure!
Cant wait to see how this engine turns out. Having a '18 114 heritage and having to replace the oil pump and the cams looking very worn at 32k miles im just gonna sit this one out for a few years.
Nothing wrong with an updated 114, enjoy it!
Can’t wait to see the bike! Thanks for all the info! Very interesting stuff Harley is up to. I sure hope all their new designs and technologies work as specified cause they really do need a reliable way to cool these big engines down.
Agree! We always want more power but power = heat especially under current constraints but this looks like a good approach, will it work?
its old technology , wake up
I think I will keep my 2015 twin cam with a gear drive cam. I know that will always work
I miss the Twin Cam's for sure, glad you have yours!
Warning! Better be better than the all SE 114 kit that went in my 2018 M8 LR when it was brand new. The SE valve spring went 'kaput' at just 13K miles. Told the dealer to FO and install S&S valve springs when they wanted to replace them with new SE.
S&S still improving on the original. Been in the game for a long time and I don't see that changing!
Harley owners will complain about everything, but Harley dealt with the heat back in 2017 when the m8 first came out. Those who tamper with the bikes, with aftermarket tuners, shut off Harley safety features. They also raise the engine idle rpm from 800 to a twin-cam,1000 rpm.
The M8 has been a great answer to heat for sure. Mine for sure runs cooler than my last Twin Cam. The best modification to improve rider comfort is to dump that cat in the header pipe!
Thanks for this valuable information brother!👍🏾
Honor Sir! Want to thank you for all of the knowledge you have and continue to share. I am always practicing and keeping it loaded!!
Most cars and even trucks now run very thin oil due to the cam phasers. Im curious if HD will spec a thinner oil than their normal 20w50. With the high temps HD engines normally run that cam phaser won't last long.
Good point! A lot of questions on how well the oil will flow through this new system. Will the oil pump flow issues linger over this new design?
Funny how they use a phaser for cam timing. Not that it makes that much of a difference. The early engine cams were gear driven n S&S has a gear driven setup
for the Twin Cams. I suppose the phaser is used to make up for the cam chain slop as the chain wears out. The other thing I observed is that this system will run quieter because the oil acts as an insulator n cushion for the action of the cam n valve train...
I would agree, the initial TH-camr reactions seem to imply a quieter sound from this new motor.
@@ITFZone I can tell you why, it is because of EUR 5+ norms, we will move from 5 to + and it is already known from exhaust manufacturers that it will make less DB.
Clever dude.
Thank you for your post. Could you post the video that explains how the oil cooling system works please?
Sure we can dig into that, there is no oil cooler so it looks to be very Twin Cam in design. Basically all of the M8 oil cooling passages around the heads has been replaced by water.
@@ITFZone thank you for your reply. So the information mentioned about an oil cooler sits above the coolant rad seems to be incorrect.
Correct the only thing up front is the very small radiator which has a fan. When I rode the bike the fan was not noticeable at all and really did not run when you shut off the bike, only a couple of seconds.
Really good information - I was wondering how the new engine works. After a couple of bad experience with my Pan America, I'll surely wait several years before even thinking about an upgrade tho.
The early bugs with the PanAm certainly put a bit of a cloud over the reliability. It has still proven to be a contender in the adventure category but would love to see the middle weight version released. Anyhow stay tuned I will share everything I find!
@@ITFZone Will do - subscribed!
I have read quite a few horror stories about the Pan Am reliability. Electrical issues and fuel pump failures.
My only worry about the oil control system of the vvt it may not allow for higher pressure/flow oil pumps.
I imagine that won't be an issue, but with this, the days of a low idle are over. These bikes are gonna need to be at 950 minimum and turning it down at all is going to cause serious issues.
This is quite similar or same as VANOS used since the mid to late 90s car motors like BMW. So you can expect similar reliability 😅 and occasional solenoid diagnosing and replacements.
Great comment. I would agree!
Very interesting. Have you already ordered your new CVO? I live in the Milwaukee area and want to see one first before ordering. I'm sure I will find one next weekend with all of the festivities. I ride a 2015 Ultra Limited w/SE 100, its been great, but I'm ready to upgrade.
Yes I have had my place in line since October of last year! I was guessing that this may be the year we saw a redesign. Write back as to your findings at the party! I wish I was there!
Excellent video
HD should allow this 121 VVT M8 to trickle down to their LowRiderS models. I would buy one.
The motor thus far has proven to deliver. Will see if that continues over the next few months. It has better sound, runs cooler and power for days!
@@ITFZone i noticed the sound from the videos, that it does sound meaner. I was curious if that’s due to cams or what. Speaking of cams, wonder if vvt will change the game for aftermarket cams… exciting times in the motorcycle world
It has way more of the loping sound, the CAM profile is different Also has a bit of TwinCam tick and way less sewing machine!
Nice Harleys have VTEC now
Thank you for this video. How do you purchase a printed copy of the service manual? Thanks!
Actual Harley manuals are available from your parts department. As bikes have been out for awhile you will find other options like from Clymer. Look at Haynes.com
Buy the factory service manual for your bike. The others aren’t nearly as good. The factory manual is pricey but buy once, cry once.
@@johntramburg3278 is the dealership the only source of buying the factory service manual?
You're gonna be an early adopter? Cool, Subbed.
Im interested to see how this all goes. Best of luck!
Welcome! Let's see what happens!
Good info! I have mine on order too, have an Ultra Limited Apex currently. Hope to get a date, vin or any solid update after the "release" this weekend at the festival, just have the confirmed order so far! Do you already have an eta assuming you ordered one?
Last I have was this month. Hoping there is more info available at the end of this week.
With Harley’s recent history of failure in new designs,I bet there will be a lot of people who will want to wait and see.
I would rather buy from a company that had 0 failures like HONDA which make the best motorcycles
Great video... time will tell if they have tackled the overheating issue. Do you know if they are also running an oil cooler/fan combination? I would assume they are. As a buyer, I would wait several years before considering this new engine. If the M8 oil pump and sumping issues in the 17-19 model years is any indication, this new design will also have some bugs. And, with the price of these new HDs, I have zero interest in being their test rat. HD should provide a 5 year warranty at no cost to the buyer for all new engine combinations in their first year models. With that said, I believe HD will have to go to a full water jacket cooling setup in the near future to compete with Indian's current engine. They will have to for EPA reasons eventually. As a buyer, I want engine reliability and longevity. To keep these M8s from exploding due to excessive heat, owners are installing very expensive cooling modifications. Instead of $4000 paint upgrades, HD should be focusing on keeping the engines cool. My two cents :-)
There is a fan behind the radiator but not aware of any secondary fan over the oil cooler. The video was not clear as to where the oil cooler sits. If this system works it will be a good compromise to full liquid cooling and hopefully carry us farther into the future. I know Europe is being challenged to require all motorcycles be zero emissions by 2035. Would be great if this motor design could have that long of a run. Appreciate your comments!
@@ITFZone that would be a mistake if they did not come with an oil cooler fan...
Can I ask you a favor. I'm waiting to see if my login is accepted. Could you tell me the torque specs of the top tree bolt (the one that screws I to the stem?
Here is what I see for the steps:
f. Tighten fork stem screw.
Torque: 24.4 N·m (18 ft-lbs) Fork stem screw, 1st torque
g. Loosen fork stem screw 180 degrees.
h. Tighten fork stem to specification
Table 1. Steering Stem Torque Specification
MODEL TORQUE
FLHX. 5.9 N·m (4.4 ft-lbs)
FLTRX. 12 N·m (8.9 ft-lbs)
FLHXSE. 5.3 N·m (3.9 ft-lbs)
FLTRXSE, FLTRXSTSE. 11.2 N·m (8.3 ft-lbs)
@ITFZone thank you! You're channel has been so valuable to me! You are one of the reasons why I pulled the trigger on a 2023 CVO Road Glide! Thank you for the specs and your content! 🙏🏽
@@Kickin_it_608 Awesome! Enjoy that Road Glide, mine still makes me smile each ride!
Good video 👍
It's going to be a very weird sounding engine. The M8 already sounds very different to all other Harley engines; it may not be immediately obvious but if you hear it side by side with any other Harley engine, it's totally different. VVT is going to make it sound like something other than a Harley
Any less sewing machine will work for me!
I LIKE. NOW DO IT ON ALL TOURING BIKES.
I'm sure that won't break and the knuckle daggers won't screw this up.
Have to watch the BBB see how many pages they get on this one . the M8 had 3500 in the first year Voided warrantee saying they over revved the engines . Putting the Bad engine design on the buyer sucks
@@JCcanU oh my R U serious?
@@kennethwise7108 Look it up 2018 BBB
@JCcanU per my insider this new motor has been having lots of issues yet its going to be released irregardless. HD will pass it along to their customers just like they did with the Twin cam 88 with their garbage tensioners that were destroying motors
@@kennethwise7108 They are using plastic for the lifter blocks that are built into the crank case no less .
Im sure there will be some bugs to work out. Exciting stuff 😮
As usual, Harley will use their customers for final validation and work on fixing issues on future bikes at the expense of early adopters.
Any news when your cvo is coming in? I just got info that mine is coming in between October and November
Wow I have not heard that. I am still getting this month. I think the expectation is some will ship this week as folks get to touch them this week in Milwaukee.
@@ITFZone Awesome!! Must be excited huh! I guess they will only deliver to overseas after all are done in the states.
Welp it looks like Harley just drove up the price tag for all this innovation, it'll be fun to see how doing a simple cam swap on a VVT system will be.
Agree, what will the early aftermarket CAM upgrades show for numbers? Excited to find out!
Will a cam swap even be necessary with VVT? The main reason to swap cam is where you want your power curve. The main reason for VVT is to widen the power band all together. Only thing you can't change is the lift with a software tune.
There are stock Ford coyotes that have a loopy idle from a software tune.
I had 3 f150s all cam phasers failed ! No thanks HD !
Well it looks like Harley has moved away from it with the ST and 117 CI motors. Not hearing of any failures thus far with the 121 VVT's but time will tell the story!
Eventually with Harley coming out withall these bigger displacement engines they will eventually have to have the cylinders and heads both liquid cooled, Harley Davidson engineers must of forgotten that the cylinders get hot too. If the temperature reaches over 250° the piston rings will break. And those cylinders are massive in size. You could almost fit a small dinner plate inside perfectly. With bigger cylinders comes more heat. You have more air and fuel going in Makin a much bigger explosion inside thus the byproduct is heat, and alot more of it, plus they could redesign the crank pun to be squared off on both ends instead of them being rounded, that will gurontee the flywheels will always stay true. They won't go out of balance and make the crankshaft go out of 0. Like the twin cam motor did. Every reliability issue they have they need to fix all these problems and make Harley Davidson a reliable product, it's 2024, Harley Davidson shouldn't be having any reliability issues anymore. If they make an engine with zero vibration and fully liquid cooled their customers will be alot happier, especially when they know, that they don't have to keep taking their bikes to the repair shop. Keep the push rod design but make it fully liquid cooled, they are going to have to do that anyway, the bigger the cylinders the more heat they produce. I have studied the internal combustion engine for well over 30 years. I have worked on many different types of engines. People are paying alot of money for these bikes, its time that Harley Davidson build a quality engine
It is a love affair with the brand and the experience. I think many would say that their HD motors have been reliable and many would say they fail way too often. Can they make a perfect motor? Possibly but would the Harley fans consider it a Harley? Appreciate your comment and for sure not disagreeing.
L would not buy the first year engine . l bought the first year m8 and got 5000 miles and the engine went down .it took
2 mouths to get my bike back .tire pressure was very low but the dealer said they checked it ,oil was low same BS
L would guess all the parts and low oil pressure . oil changes would be often .it took 4 years to get the oil pump
right in the m8 L would wait 3 years before buying .
For sure the M8 oil pump created issues for many. At least with my now first 6 months with this new M8 version I can report no motor issues and really happy with the performance and gas millage. It is really a different experience from my 2018 117 M8.
watercooling oooooooohhhhhhh noooooooo!!!!!! where are the hardcore harley guys now! i own a v rod .....
I know LOL! Now living with the bike I am not so sure what I was worried about. However, having a cooling fan running when you shut off the bike is still something I am not used to. There is a big part of me that still craves the more vintage experience at times.
Looks like the head intake port is changed also.
So basically don’t get this bike until it’s 4th generation is out and they work out all the bugs
Well lets hope we don't have to wait 4 years to trust it but will see.
The coolant..cooler..the coolant tube....coolant goes in an S shape.....next the coolant goes into the coolant cooler.... the then cooling cooler collant cooling system cools the cooling coolant to cool the bikes coolant to then cool the bike.....coolant.
But will it the motor run hot? ;)
Just bought this bike. I so regret it. At 6'3" the bike does not fit. So Harley davidson is primarily owned by bikers. Alot of bikers are well over 5'7". This bike wwy to small. 54k out the door. I am so pist!!
Mike! Bummer for sure, nothing like spending a small fortune to not have it fit. The bike for sure has a smaller feel but I think technically its more lighter weight than physical size. The seat is taller which is good for taller legs but way forward. I think the bars are perfect for me at 6'1". But I get what you are saying the bike has a smaller feel. When I test rode the Street Glide I knew there was no way I could be happy with it compared to the current versions. Very cramped feeling to me. I think the RG is a better fit for a taller rider but its not the same as my 18. Each person is different so I cannot advise what's best for you but I will say as I have put more time on the bike I am really enjoying the 121 motor and the "light" handling compared to my 18. Its different, not all in good ways but its sure fun to give it the beans! All the best to you, let us know where you end up.
Way too complicated for HD
You speak to the overall expectation of a Harley. Will it still be able to deliver on the experience or will it just become just like every other modern bike.
PASS
Very poor design
Time will tell.
Here is lots of Honda, Kawasaki,etc with oil pressure VVT without any issue.About cooling...better than nothing.🤷
Agree! But this is the HD version... Fingers crossed!