Hold on, Cave Masters - based on the demo you've hosted on Itch & what you've showcased in various videos on your channel - has tons of juice, lots of content, and mad potential. You're in a perfect position to recycle your assets, cut massive content, and ship what you currently have if you restructure your game's archetecture carefully. I say this because: 1. You have a core gameplay loop, systems in place that support this (procedural generation, enemies, projectiles, game feel, etc.) which is what holds everything together. 2. As long as you have a start/opening menu, settings to handle player's preferences, and a way to exit the game via results screen, pause, etc. You have the main structure of your game. 3. 50% of the development process is polishing/debugging. If you were to take every single working part of your game, and "delete" features that currently don't work - you'd still have a game. More specifically, Cave Masters already has: 40+ Levels, More than 6+ enemy types, Pickable Items, Projectile Types (Fire, Acid, etc.), Boss Prefab, Working Soundtrack, Currency System, Scalable Dodge Skill (Recovery + Distance), Goregous Environment(s), Over 300+ days worth of Scripting/Content Creation, AND a community that has interest in the game (+ lessons learned per major progression point/milestone). I would absolutely argue that are are more games that exist that have less features then what Cave Masters currently has. You may have over-scoped/overplanned the amount of features your game aims to have, but I firmly belive this comes from a space of just learning what the development process looks like without a solid deadline. You need an end goal that enforces you to wrap up your projects as soon as possible with what you currently have rather than dropping it to the "unfinished projects" list. You do NOT NEED 100+ levels / an arbiturary amount of content to make it any better when that's the core gameplay loop's responsibility. (Of course, more content equates to more variation, diversity, and experiences, but hold onto that thought for a moment.) You do NOT NEED every single detail or partical to have a special effect as what you currently have works, and your game does NOT NEED to have an epic 1,000+ hour gameplay experience to have fun. All you're missing is: - A Start Menu (A Way to start the actual game via menus) - A Settings Menu (A way for players to customize their preferences) - A Way to Progress Between Levels (The actual gameplay loop) - Endscreen/Results Screen (A way to exit / reward players for playing) You were able to make incredible progress from a Game-Jam point of view because of the tight deadline you've established. If you were to oppress yourself with another tight deadline, say one-month to ship it - and be very strict about it, you will finish your game. This means that if you're working on a task and truly understand that if you cannot finish it within the upcoming deadline, then you cut the content needed to finish the task INSTEAD of extending the deadline. This is what we call "respecting the deadline" and if you develop the habit of building this (and shipping your game) you will essentially grow real-life EXP points on your game development. I want to highlight another point: - I recall you self-describing yourself as a Jack of All Trades - and while your argument on "increasing my skills in each area" or doubling down on a particular area is completely valid, you're dismissing the fact that you can do a LOT with a little. Game Development is just making images do things per x-amount of frames. You don't need to be a super expert to wrap up your journey and while your recent progress has demonstrated your insane improvement as a programmer, you will always continue to learn as you make. Do not be intimidated by this. Think of it like a work-out where you have repitions you need to do in order to build muscle. You can only progress if you are doing the repitions properly, meaning, you need to stick with your scope, your deadlines, and with the current tools you currently have in order to grow with them. Its a marahton, and if you train yourself to use this opporunity to course-correct, learn how to launch on a platform like Steam, and assess the strictness of a deadline REGARDLESS of your skill level, completing your game WILL expand your Asset Pool (total amount of tools, assets, resources, techniques, and processes that you can recycle/use for your next game) while developing personality traits/character of drilling hard problems. You're probably super-set on your ways on moving on, but I really wanted to express the sheer opportunity you have in your hands. Your game's performance may be questionable at the time of launch, but the more you launch the less uncertainity occurs when you ship your next title. Investing one more month in finishing can drastically teach you way more than you think. This will be valuable for your portfolio, channel, and enable possibly of sales once it becomes commercial. Lastly, your enthusiastic personality bleeds through your videos - I enjoy watching an authentic developer showcase their abilities to encounter and resolve problems. You should not underestimate yourself because if you truly look at your channel in a retrospective POV you've improved like crazy in a short amount of time. While we enjoy your insight, don't lose track of what you have already achieved. You can do this.
Wow, I am SO moved by this comment, I literally read it 3 times. You make such a fantastic point, specifically around cutting what can be cut, and using the rest to have a finished game. We actually do have a start menu. There are basically three things that need complete/fixed: -The level progression system -The story (which is very important to me) -The store system to use the currency Plus all the bugs, BUT, that is a doable amount of work….. you really have me thinking here. Have you joined the discord? I would potentially love to chat more, but you bring up such a good point, and I will be going back to the drawing board. THANK YOU.
As someone who has shipped games and planning to ship my next game later this year (may 2nd, 2025 is the goal). I can tell you that hitting a point where you hate your game and dread having to play test it yet again is just a reality. Games start with passion and there so fun, but after your 1000th + hour of testing and working on aspects that players require that aren't fun to work on such as tutorials and edge cases for wild player decisions. It is going to suck. You start with passion, and find the fun. But then, you have to just trust your earlier feelings that it is good, combined with player feedback, and use discipline to keep pushing forward. Crossing the finish line is not easy at all, making a prototype is the easy part. Stay strong, and push through. You got this.
It makes sense, I personally couldn’t play one game for a 1000 hours so what would make my own game any different? Just gotta remember the first 100 or even couple hours where you loved it and just try to get that feeling out for others to experience.
Bro I so needed this simple tutorial, it showed me how to kill my own personal game in less than 4 steps! So far I’ve killed 2 of my games from these useful tips!
I was going for a bit of humor here, but the reality is, game dev is tough haha. While we are bummed, we are super hopeful for the future. How have you avoid game dev disaster in your journey. Let us know below!
Haha I hope it doesn’t seem like this was our first step! We’ve really been trying to work through it, but we’ve just realized putting our energy into something that isn’t going anywhere isn’t doing anything for us as a studio. I hope we can come back to it because I love the game.
The thing that I have struggled with for the last 10+ years is having a clear vision for my project, staying on task and not letting myself get distracted, and working within my limits. But this has all forced me to take a humbling assessment of my problem areas and that I need to learn and grow even if it's hard and tedious at times. That's my #1 series of goals to overcome with my current project...
For me, the biggest thing is: planning. I think it's really easy to 'just build and change stuff' as you go. And you just kind of 'find the fun' or 'find the soul' as you putz around testing new ideas and notions. I think by and large in the games industry, we've accepted this as standard practice, that "that's what you're supposed to do". I think that is influenced greatly by software development as a whole, specifically like Agile/Scrum/Solid and all those lofty promises to businesses that they can have their cake and eat it too: they can be vapidly vague about what they want, wait until the 11th hour and look at the result of thousands or tens of thousands of hours of work of actual planning, hitting all the limitations, finding all the workarounds and making decision upon decision upon decision... and just dismiss it outright with "oh, nice, but I want you to add one little thing" which so happens to be a foundational change that make a huge mess of what was once a really streamlined and wonderful thing... but you're on salary, and you got to dance like the monkey you are. So if you got money and cash... that's 'a way' of doing it. However, you need at least some amount of playing with ideas or it is all just theoretical, and with games that take years to build, to just say "it might be fun in a year... my game design doc says it will be fun" is foolish and assuredly wont be the case. "maybe this will be fun" might as well be interchangeable with "this will never be fun" The trick is: prototyping and planning. If you do all your quick and dirty testing and changes in a low risk project before you actually start - with basic art and 'minimal functionality',... then you can 'find the fun'. Try out a mechanic or try some neat little idea, putz around for a day or two max... see if it is what you need for the game you're working on or not, if not, rinse and repeat until you get something you like. Once you get all the features prototyped, you can do a VS (vertical slice) where you just slap all the protos together and see if they work in a system,... THEN AND ONLY THEN plan the game from beginning to end: What mechanics there are going to be, what levels there are going to be, what items there are going to be... etc. Leave nothing to out of that planning, and stay true to the VS. After planning, you start over with a BLANK SLATE (I've made this mistake many times, where I think the VS is 'polished enough' but please please please take my word for it, please start over from scratch) and then think about how to actually made the game. If you can do that, you can actually ship stuff. Stuff that is made quickly with low amounts of stress and effort, and worse still, you go into it knowing proof positive that the game will be fun and the core loop works well. On top of that, because what will be in the game is a solved problem, you can do more tooling to really give you the leverage to make the game as easy to maintain and as wonderful as it can be. If you don't do that: you'll just putz around and keep adding and removing stuff, your codebase will be riddled with technical debt which will make working with it not only painful but any change at all will take forever to make,... all the while you have no guarantee that what you are making will ever be fun. If you are foolish enough to do tooling, you'll get to update those tools with each haphazard change as well which is nightmarish and you're mirroring changes from one bug prone mess to another... and if you don't then you can kiss the benefits of such tools goodbye, making the whole process that much more painful (darned if you do, and darned if you don't). So budget time for prototyping... then once you got a good VS, then actually plan out the game and set deadlines. As the old saying goes: Failing to plan, is just planning to fail.
Very well put comment, I couldn't agree more. Obviously, different approaches can work and are preferred by different people, but this is by far the most sensible one I can think of. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge/wisdom with others.
@@NOAHGAMES-q9w You're very welcome, I hope it helps :D It took a lot of testing to get down the process for me, and you're right it might not be for everybody (as people have different preferences and approaches, etc). This is a good video on the subject where they came to the same conclusion as well, might be worth the watch for those that want more information on the subject: watch?v=IeVxir50Q2Q In any case, you're welcome and I hope it helps :D
To overcome overscoping and retain passion you need a simple and good Game Design Document. The game design document will help you keep your game dev focused on what you set out to do. Having Game Design pillars will help a ton! Good luck to anyone trying to publish in 2025
"Overscoping actually gets a bad rep"... then what you are explaining next is just "scoping" isn't it? If you just add stuff that you realistically can add within a time (and skill/budget) limit where it either adds to the game (either as art or helps getting sales) or at very least isn't hurting the game then i'd guess any dev would say that would be fine. It is just adding more content. It is a good thing that the vertical slice is expandable. You do need to add something and it helps a lot if the systems put in to the code/framework allow you to add new ideas. Scoping is very fine to have. What OVERscoping is - is that you are adding stuff that is either unnecessary or that delays the release date of the game WITHOUT adding any value (again: art or sales aka money). I think that there is a good reason why OVERscoping has a bad rep. It deserves it.
Good video. On point 1 I am good, if I add something is not that complex and only when I really need it. On point 2, yeah, I fucked up here. Deadlines have gone down the drain. Working on that. On point 3 there are ideas from here and there, that are good on their own, but don't mix well with the current game setup. What I do is write down an idea for a sequel or spin-off title that might work well with it. Put it aside and keep the direction of the project, and who know, the sidelined idea might develop slowly on concept level till it grows to a complete idea ready to start developing, or slowly slide into oblivion, which is also fine. I like playing with ideas to see which one will get me passionate.
I'm really sorry top hear that it hasn't worked out. Game Dev can really be deflating when it doesn't work out. I worked for months on something as simply as an inventory system, only to have to pull it all out and start again because I didn't understand how the inventory system worked as I customised it from a tutorial. It really hurt. Every experience does grow you, and I think your next project will greatly benefit from what you've learned here. Thanks for sharing, some great advice. All the best!
I think part of the problem with the "heart" issue is, it's all cool and has heart at the start but the game dev process desensitises you to it and because you're staring at it all day everyday, and slogging on it everyday, it can start to feel like it doesn't have heart anymore. So you try and add novelty "heart" to it, to rekindle that feeling and that's where people run into trouble. Sometimes, you just have to trust the process, hold onto the original feelings. I think if you have ADHD this is way more pervasive as our brains crave novelty. Maybe writing a diary of how you feel about your original ideas and the original feelings? So you can go back and read why you're doing what you're doing. taking a break from it can help. All of these things are a process when you're making a piece of art that has a slog to it, you can end up "noodling" it and end up making it worse instead of just calling it done and moving onto the next piece.
Just take a break. Don't consider it dead yet. I've let projects go before after working on them for a long while, and in the end, still to this day, I regret thinking that I wasn't going to ever be able to finish them, I miss them wholeheartedly and it hurts to think that if I just saved the files, I could continue where I left off. Don't make the same mistakes I did. I loved... Love the games I let go. I would do anything to bring them back.
I've been a part of a lot of failed project in the past few years, and the problems range from lack of commitment, lack of understanding, heating arguments about features and process, and just generally having no clue what we are doing. Yeah, game dev is really rough. Just shelved another project just recently, and it was a huge let down for me. The one question I ask myself a lot recently is what am I doing wrong? It's very frustrating spending a couple years working on projects but never getting anywhere with them, so I'm always wondering what is missing. Your video has helped quite a bit, so thank you for posting this. Another thing I've learned is that working with people can be really difficult. My friend and I are currently in a indie game company startup, but man, have we had some pretty heated arguments about things. We've gotten better about trying to meet in the middle about decisions, but it's still rough. We're both very stubborn and opinionated, so reaching an agreement on what direction to take a game or what our development time is best spent on can be really hard still. So I guess what I've learned so far is pick your battles and don't get into heated arguments over things that don't actually matter that much.
This is absolutely relevant. Working with others is hard, no matter what industry or project or people on your team. Hopefully you can move towards the same goals and passions and communicate well, but there will always be speed bumps and things to work through. It’s tough. We are just all out here learning and trying I think. Key is to not give up!
For me, it seems like what kills my game projects or at least slows them down a lot to the point where I drop the bar of what I considered to be the "bare minimum" to a point where it's no longer a game, is when I create a development plan... they overwhelm me. I've learnt that the only way I'm gonna be able to make any big game is if I improvise the entire thing and never look more than 2 steps ahead of where I currently am otherwise I will trip over. Like I have a rough idea of where I want to go with the game but nothing is set in stone, there is no written plan whatsoever. Luckily this is a perfectly valid way of developing games for a solo dev so I'm not worried. It makes all the side tasks become main ones, so instead of half the game being tedious and annoying to program, it's fun. I am curious how I'm gonna feel about all the non-programming parts of development though, I hope I can carry the same enthusiasm into my art :))
Complexity without understanding definitely sniped me from afar more than once. I think I've finally managed to dodge that bullet this time, I got stuck trying to improve the combat system, and my first thought was "yeah we need SUPERS or some kind of energy bar/a bunch of status effects!" and I am very glad I decided against that. The real issue with complexity was the depth of existing mechanics. I did add a few still, since the game is a bit longer and some variety is needed, but nothing that added new UI or another system for players to manage. Still a shame to hear, but if you guys are hopeful still it'd be silly for me to try and make that less hopeful. Wish you well on your next adventure!
In my case, I'm currently working making games for a company, and trying to work on my personal project after work hours feels exhausting, I'm trying to work on it on weekends, but I usually use those days to do other personal things 😔
What is the core fantasy or heart of your game? I'd say its sometimes very hard as game developer to understand, what actually makes people like your game. I had to release mine and gather a lot of feedback before I understood why they actually like it. When you are developing for a long time, you kind of become blind to your own work.
I don’t think all hope is lost! I just think we need to pause at this time if we want to keep moving forward as a studio and release something. We want to put our energy into the right projects, and this is the best course of action to do that well. Hopefully we can come back to it!
Sucks to hear that! But ya, it's better to pull the plug on a game that's just not going to work out than it is to spend 2+ years on it and have less than a dozen people play it. Live and learn is all we can do! I haven't seen a ton of your game but I think this was the right call. It's so competitive out there, not sure if would have made enough of an impact to see it through. Gamedev sure is tough. In my own experience, burn out killed a game for me. Though tbf, I did release it (Kill-City:Detroit, a full Shadowrun Returns conversion mod). I was grinding away 12 hours a day on that mod (all me/ solo), motivated to release it. By the time I pushed myself to finish it, I was totally burnt out from it and sick of working on it entirely. Which really sucks because the first 5 minutes needed a simple tutorial for new players, and without that, probably most players only saw like 1% of the content I made before giving up on it. The lesson there was breaks and days off can be even better for your production than grinding endlessly. Now on RoadHouse Manager (my magnum opus wishlist today on Steam it's amazing!) when I feel my game dev energy is depleted, I take a well deserved time off and not feel guilty about not working. Sure it may take a bit longer this way, but the game (and me) will be much better for it, in the long run.
This is good advice. Taking time off from working on my game is hard for me to do - but I can tell that when I take breaks and recuperate, it makes a difference.
On the plus side you've hit this point in around a year. There are people who go 4+ before the inevitable happens. I truly think no amount of "don't make your dream game" and "set small goals" advice works for anyone, no matter how smart they. That knot in your chest may suck right now, but it'll be a valuable problem detector in future projects. Life has just Dark souls'd you. You are never meant to beat the first boss. You were just meant to take a few sobering lessons into the real game...
Why's to want to kill my game? The reality it's I don't following eny off your steps on My game. My game although it's big scope it's position. And I understand the system I tried to make and ECT.
I have watched you post this video on social media for weeks instead of actually working on anything. If you want to do good work, do it. If all you wanted was to say you were work won a game, you're exactly like all those idiots when I was a teenager I met at the music store, trying to sell kids drugs by telling them you play an instrument. Essentially a con artist 😂
Dude, your totally right, I wish I would have done more to help the game get completed. This was by far one of the best, and hardest lessons I learned from this experience. Game dev is SOOO messy, and isn't black and white. I appreciate your feedback, and thanks for being here!
@@SoulEngineDev you just have to work man, it's like any other thing. If you are not dedicated to learning software and being the sole director, then what is the point? You can't have 20 managers and 1 programmer, that's the dumbest thing ever. Learn how to program games through the terminal, a text game, by scratch, or don't do it at all. you'll get easily discouraged by basically nothing all the time.
It can definitely feel discouraging to do something like game dev. But it’s been a dream of mine forever and I do believe it’s possible to find success, even if it’s a hard journey. Thanks for being here!
Hold on,
Cave Masters - based on the demo you've hosted on Itch & what you've showcased in various videos on your channel - has tons of juice, lots of content, and mad potential.
You're in a perfect position to recycle your assets, cut massive content, and ship what you currently have if you restructure your game's archetecture carefully.
I say this because:
1. You have a core gameplay loop, systems in place that support this (procedural generation, enemies, projectiles, game feel, etc.) which is what holds everything together.
2. As long as you have a start/opening menu, settings to handle player's preferences, and a way to exit the game via results screen, pause, etc. You have the main structure of your game.
3. 50% of the development process is polishing/debugging. If you were to take every single working part of your game, and "delete" features that currently don't work - you'd still have a game.
More specifically, Cave Masters already has:
40+ Levels, More than 6+ enemy types, Pickable Items, Projectile Types (Fire, Acid, etc.), Boss Prefab, Working Soundtrack, Currency System, Scalable Dodge Skill (Recovery + Distance), Goregous Environment(s), Over 300+ days worth of Scripting/Content Creation, AND a community that has interest in the game (+ lessons learned per major progression point/milestone).
I would absolutely argue that are are more games that exist that have less features then what Cave Masters currently has. You may have over-scoped/overplanned the amount of features your game aims to have, but I firmly belive this comes from a space of just learning what the development process looks like without a solid deadline. You need an end goal that enforces you to wrap up your projects as soon as possible with what you currently have rather than dropping it to the "unfinished projects" list.
You do NOT NEED 100+ levels / an arbiturary amount of content to make it any better when that's the core gameplay loop's responsibility. (Of course, more content equates to more variation, diversity, and experiences, but hold onto that thought for a moment.) You do NOT NEED every single detail or partical to have a special effect as what you currently have works, and your game does NOT NEED to have an epic 1,000+ hour gameplay experience to have fun.
All you're missing is:
- A Start Menu (A Way to start the actual game via menus)
- A Settings Menu (A way for players to customize their preferences)
- A Way to Progress Between Levels (The actual gameplay loop)
- Endscreen/Results Screen (A way to exit / reward players for playing)
You were able to make incredible progress from a Game-Jam point of view because of the tight deadline you've established. If you were to oppress yourself with another tight deadline, say one-month to ship it - and be very strict about it, you will finish your game. This means that if you're working on a task and truly understand that if you cannot finish it within the upcoming deadline, then you cut the content needed to finish the task INSTEAD of extending the deadline. This is what we call "respecting the deadline" and if you develop the habit of building this (and shipping your game) you will essentially grow real-life EXP points on your game development.
I want to highlight another point:
- I recall you self-describing yourself as a Jack of All Trades - and while your argument on "increasing my skills in each area" or doubling down on a particular area is completely valid, you're dismissing the fact that you can do a LOT with a little. Game Development is just making images do things per x-amount of frames. You don't need to be a super expert to wrap up your journey and while your recent progress has demonstrated your insane improvement as a programmer, you will always continue to learn as you make. Do not be intimidated by this.
Think of it like a work-out where you have repitions you need to do in order to build muscle. You can only progress if you are doing the repitions properly, meaning, you need to stick with your scope, your deadlines, and with the current tools you currently have in order to grow with them. Its a marahton, and if you train yourself to use this opporunity to course-correct, learn how to launch on a platform like Steam, and assess the strictness of a deadline REGARDLESS of your skill level, completing your game WILL expand your Asset Pool (total amount of tools, assets, resources, techniques, and processes that you can recycle/use for your next game) while developing personality traits/character of drilling hard problems.
You're probably super-set on your ways on moving on, but I really wanted to express the sheer opportunity you have in your hands. Your game's performance may be questionable at the time of launch, but the more you launch the less uncertainity occurs when you ship your next title. Investing one more month in finishing can drastically teach you way more than you think. This will be valuable for your portfolio, channel, and enable possibly of sales once it becomes commercial.
Lastly, your enthusiastic personality bleeds through your videos - I enjoy watching an authentic developer showcase their abilities to encounter and resolve problems. You should not underestimate yourself because if you truly look at your channel in a retrospective POV you've improved like crazy in a short amount of time. While we enjoy your insight, don't lose track of what you have already achieved.
You can do this.
Wow, I am SO moved by this comment, I literally read it 3 times. You make such a fantastic point, specifically around cutting what can be cut, and using the rest to have a finished game.
We actually do have a start menu. There are basically three things that need complete/fixed:
-The level progression system
-The story (which is very important to me)
-The store system to use the currency
Plus all the bugs, BUT, that is a doable amount of work….. you really have me thinking here.
Have you joined the discord? I would potentially love to chat more, but you bring up such a good point, and I will be going back to the drawing board.
THANK YOU.
As someone who has shipped games and planning to ship my next game later this year (may 2nd, 2025 is the goal). I can tell you that hitting a point where you hate your game and dread having to play test it yet again is just a reality. Games start with passion and there so fun, but after your 1000th + hour of testing and working on aspects that players require that aren't fun to work on such as tutorials and edge cases for wild player decisions. It is going to suck.
You start with passion, and find the fun. But then, you have to just trust your earlier feelings that it is good, combined with player feedback, and use discipline to keep pushing forward. Crossing the finish line is not easy at all, making a prototype is the easy part. Stay strong, and push through. You got this.
Start with passion and find the fun is a great line. Thank you! I really appreciate the insight and the support.
It makes sense, I personally couldn’t play one game for a 1000 hours so what would make my own game any different? Just gotta remember the first 100 or even couple hours where you loved it and just try to get that feeling out for others to experience.
Bro I so needed this simple tutorial, it showed me how to kill my own personal game in less than 4 steps! So far I’ve killed 2 of my games from these useful tips!
Keep up the good work my friend! Haha
I was going for a bit of humor here, but the reality is, game dev is tough haha. While we are bummed, we are super hopeful for the future. How have you avoid game dev disaster in your journey. Let us know below!
First step: abandon your game
Haha I hope it doesn’t seem like this was our first step! We’ve really been trying to work through it, but we’ve just realized putting our energy into something that isn’t going anywhere isn’t doing anything for us as a studio. I hope we can come back to it because I love the game.
@@SoulEngineDev Don't worry, I have countless ideas I started and abandoned, it feels like I built an idea graveyard
The thing that I have struggled with for the last 10+ years is having a clear vision for my project, staying on task and not letting myself get distracted, and working within my limits. But this has all forced me to take a humbling assessment of my problem areas and that I need to learn and grow even if it's hard and tedious at times. That's my #1 series of goals to overcome with my current project...
I think a lot of us can resonate with this. Definitely humbling-it takes a lot to step back and think through these things!
For me, the biggest thing is: planning.
I think it's really easy to 'just build and change stuff' as you go. And you just kind of 'find the fun' or 'find the soul' as you putz around testing new ideas and notions. I think by and large in the games industry, we've accepted this as standard practice, that "that's what you're supposed to do". I think that is influenced greatly by software development as a whole, specifically like Agile/Scrum/Solid and all those lofty promises to businesses that they can have their cake and eat it too: they can be vapidly vague about what they want, wait until the 11th hour and look at the result of thousands or tens of thousands of hours of work of actual planning, hitting all the limitations, finding all the workarounds and making decision upon decision upon decision... and just dismiss it outright with "oh, nice, but I want you to add one little thing" which so happens to be a foundational change that make a huge mess of what was once a really streamlined and wonderful thing... but you're on salary, and you got to dance like the monkey you are. So if you got money and cash... that's 'a way' of doing it.
However, you need at least some amount of playing with ideas or it is all just theoretical, and with games that take years to build, to just say "it might be fun in a year... my game design doc says it will be fun" is foolish and assuredly wont be the case. "maybe this will be fun" might as well be interchangeable with "this will never be fun"
The trick is: prototyping and planning.
If you do all your quick and dirty testing and changes in a low risk project before you actually start - with basic art and 'minimal functionality',... then you can 'find the fun'. Try out a mechanic or try some neat little idea, putz around for a day or two max... see if it is what you need for the game you're working on or not, if not, rinse and repeat until you get something you like. Once you get all the features prototyped, you can do a VS (vertical slice) where you just slap all the protos together and see if they work in a system,... THEN AND ONLY THEN plan the game from beginning to end: What mechanics there are going to be, what levels there are going to be, what items there are going to be... etc. Leave nothing to out of that planning, and stay true to the VS.
After planning, you start over with a BLANK SLATE (I've made this mistake many times, where I think the VS is 'polished enough' but please please please take my word for it, please start over from scratch) and then think about how to actually made the game.
If you can do that, you can actually ship stuff. Stuff that is made quickly with low amounts of stress and effort, and worse still, you go into it knowing proof positive that the game will be fun and the core loop works well. On top of that, because what will be in the game is a solved problem, you can do more tooling to really give you the leverage to make the game as easy to maintain and as wonderful as it can be.
If you don't do that: you'll just putz around and keep adding and removing stuff, your codebase will be riddled with technical debt which will make working with it not only painful but any change at all will take forever to make,... all the while you have no guarantee that what you are making will ever be fun. If you are foolish enough to do tooling, you'll get to update those tools with each haphazard change as well which is nightmarish and you're mirroring changes from one bug prone mess to another... and if you don't then you can kiss the benefits of such tools goodbye, making the whole process that much more painful (darned if you do, and darned if you don't).
So budget time for prototyping... then once you got a good VS, then actually plan out the game and set deadlines.
As the old saying goes: Failing to plan, is just planning to fail.
Such good stuff. Thanks for sharing this - planning is tough to really get through but it makes such a difference.
Very well put comment, I couldn't agree more. Obviously, different approaches can work and are preferred by different people, but this is by far the most sensible one I can think of. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge/wisdom with others.
@@NOAHGAMES-q9w You're very welcome, I hope it helps :D
It took a lot of testing to get down the process for me, and you're right it might not be for everybody (as people have different preferences and approaches, etc).
This is a good video on the subject where they came to the same conclusion as well, might be worth the watch for those that want more information on the subject: watch?v=IeVxir50Q2Q
In any case, you're welcome and I hope it helps :D
Failure isn't wasted as long as you learn from it !
This. Thank you!
I'm not good at killing my projects, but I've seen a lot of other people try to kill my projects when they work on them.
To overcome overscoping and retain passion you need a simple and good Game Design Document. The game design document will help you keep your game dev focused on what you set out to do. Having Game Design pillars will help a ton! Good luck to anyone trying to publish in 2025
Great idea, thanks for sharing!
"Overscoping actually gets a bad rep"... then what you are explaining next is just "scoping" isn't it? If you just add stuff that you realistically can add within a time (and skill/budget) limit where it either adds to the game (either as art or helps getting sales) or at very least isn't hurting the game then i'd guess any dev would say that would be fine. It is just adding more content. It is a good thing that the vertical slice is expandable. You do need to add something and it helps a lot if the systems put in to the code/framework allow you to add new ideas. Scoping is very fine to have.
What OVERscoping is - is that you are adding stuff that is either unnecessary or that delays the release date of the game WITHOUT adding any value (again: art or sales aka money).
I think that there is a good reason why OVERscoping has a bad rep. It deserves it.
You explained it perfectly, misstep on my end. We need to scope correctly, and it is okay to dream a little. We shouldn’t be afraid to dream!
Good video. On point 1 I am good, if I add something is not that complex and only when I really need it. On point 2, yeah, I fucked up here. Deadlines have gone down the drain. Working on that. On point 3 there are ideas from here and there, that are good on their own, but don't mix well with the current game setup. What I do is write down an idea for a sequel or spin-off title that might work well with it. Put it aside and keep the direction of the project, and who know, the sidelined idea might develop slowly on concept level till it grows to a complete idea ready to start developing, or slowly slide into oblivion, which is also fine. I like playing with ideas to see which one will get me passionate.
I'm really sorry top hear that it hasn't worked out. Game Dev can really be deflating when it doesn't work out. I worked for months on something as simply as an inventory system, only to have to pull it all out and start again because I didn't understand how the inventory system worked as I customised it from a tutorial. It really hurt. Every experience does grow you, and I think your next project will greatly benefit from what you've learned here. Thanks for sharing, some great advice. All the best!
Thank you for this! Even though it sucks, we learned a lot, and we’ll continue to learn. It’s nice to know it happens to the best of us.
I think part of the problem with the "heart" issue is, it's all cool and has heart at the start but the game dev process desensitises you to it and because you're staring at it all day everyday, and slogging on it everyday, it can start to feel like it doesn't have heart anymore. So you try and add novelty "heart" to it, to rekindle that feeling and that's where people run into trouble. Sometimes, you just have to trust the process, hold onto the original feelings. I think if you have ADHD this is way more pervasive as our brains crave novelty.
Maybe writing a diary of how you feel about your original ideas and the original feelings? So you can go back and read why you're doing what you're doing. taking a break from it can help. All of these things are a process when you're making a piece of art that has a slog to it, you can end up "noodling" it and end up making it worse instead of just calling it done and moving onto the next piece.
All really good insight. “Heart” feels so important but if the process isn’t working, the game won’t work.
Motivation to continue. I usually just start working on a new project. Then eventually might get back to the recent ones. But yeah.
Just take a break. Don't consider it dead yet.
I've let projects go before after working on them for a long while, and in the end, still to this day, I regret thinking that I wasn't going to ever be able to finish them, I miss them wholeheartedly and it hurts to think that if I just saved the files, I could continue where I left off. Don't make the same mistakes I did. I loved... Love the games I let go. I would do anything to bring them back.
Thanks for this. It’s hopefully what will end up happening…because I do love the game and I would love to see it succeed!
I've been a part of a lot of failed project in the past few years, and the problems range from lack of commitment, lack of understanding, heating arguments about features and process, and just generally having no clue what we are doing.
Yeah, game dev is really rough. Just shelved another project just recently, and it was a huge let down for me. The one question I ask myself a lot recently is what am I doing wrong? It's very frustrating spending a couple years working on projects but never getting anywhere with them, so I'm always wondering what is missing. Your video has helped quite a bit, so thank you for posting this.
Another thing I've learned is that working with people can be really difficult. My friend and I are currently in a indie game company startup, but man, have we had some pretty heated arguments about things. We've gotten better about trying to meet in the middle about decisions, but it's still rough. We're both very stubborn and opinionated, so reaching an agreement on what direction to take a game or what our development time is best spent on can be really hard still.
So I guess what I've learned so far is pick your battles and don't get into heated arguments over things that don't actually matter that much.
This is absolutely relevant. Working with others is hard, no matter what industry or project or people on your team. Hopefully you can move towards the same goals and passions and communicate well, but there will always be speed bumps and things to work through. It’s tough. We are just all out here learning and trying I think. Key is to not give up!
At least you know how NOT to develop a game!
There is no "negative experience" - only EXPERIENCE ;-)
So true!
For me, it seems like what kills my game projects or at least slows them down a lot to the point where I drop the bar of what I considered to be the "bare minimum" to a point where it's no longer a game, is when I create a development plan... they overwhelm me. I've learnt that the only way I'm gonna be able to make any big game is if I improvise the entire thing and never look more than 2 steps ahead of where I currently am otherwise I will trip over. Like I have a rough idea of where I want to go with the game but nothing is set in stone, there is no written plan whatsoever. Luckily this is a perfectly valid way of developing games for a solo dev so I'm not worried. It makes all the side tasks become main ones, so instead of half the game being tedious and annoying to program, it's fun. I am curious how I'm gonna feel about all the non-programming parts of development though, I hope I can carry the same enthusiasm into my art :))
Let me know how it goes, I’m really curious! You should join the Discord and give us updates haha
not brainstorming stuff daily is a pretty good step to execute your game, I mean if you don't do anyhing the game never releases, makes sense for me.
Complexity without understanding definitely sniped me from afar more than once. I think I've finally managed to dodge that bullet this time, I got stuck trying to improve the combat system, and my first thought was "yeah we need SUPERS or some kind of energy bar/a bunch of status effects!" and I am very glad I decided against that.
The real issue with complexity was the depth of existing mechanics. I did add a few still, since the game is a bit longer and some variety is needed, but nothing that added new UI or another system for players to manage.
Still a shame to hear, but if you guys are hopeful still it'd be silly for me to try and make that less hopeful. Wish you well on your next adventure!
Thank you for this! It’s definitely an issue that needs to be solved in order to move forward. We’ll get it right!
Sorry to hear about cave masters. It always hurts. Hopefully a lot was learned though for the next one.
And thank you for this! A LOT of lessons learned.
In my case, I'm currently working making games for a company, and trying to work on my personal project after work hours feels exhausting, I'm trying to work on it on weekends, but I usually use those days to do other personal things 😔
I feel you! Keep at it. Thanks for being here.
Is that... Stardew valley in the background?!?!!
What is the core fantasy or heart of your game? I'd say its sometimes very hard as game developer to understand, what actually makes people like your game. I had to release mine and gather a lot of feedback before I understood why they actually like it. When you are developing for a long time, you kind of become blind to your own work.
Is there really no hope to revive the game and resolve the issues described here?
I don’t think all hope is lost! I just think we need to pause at this time if we want to keep moving forward as a studio and release something. We want to put our energy into the right projects, and this is the best course of action to do that well. Hopefully we can come back to it!
Sucks to hear that! But ya, it's better to pull the plug on a game that's just not going to work out than it is to spend 2+ years on it and have less than a dozen people play it. Live and learn is all we can do! I haven't seen a ton of your game but I think this was the right call. It's so competitive out there, not sure if would have made enough of an impact to see it through. Gamedev sure is tough.
In my own experience, burn out killed a game for me. Though tbf, I did release it (Kill-City:Detroit, a full Shadowrun Returns conversion mod). I was grinding away 12 hours a day on that mod (all me/ solo), motivated to release it. By the time I pushed myself to finish it, I was totally burnt out from it and sick of working on it entirely. Which really sucks because the first 5 minutes needed a simple tutorial for new players, and without that, probably most players only saw like 1% of the content I made before giving up on it.
The lesson there was breaks and days off can be even better for your production than grinding endlessly. Now on RoadHouse Manager (my magnum opus wishlist today on Steam it's amazing!) when I feel my game dev energy is depleted, I take a well deserved time off and not feel guilty about not working. Sure it may take a bit longer this way, but the game (and me) will be much better for it, in the long run.
This is good advice. Taking time off from working on my game is hard for me to do - but I can tell that when I take breaks and recuperate, it makes a difference.
Next chapter, how to deal with this : )
On the plus side you've hit this point in around a year. There are people who go 4+ before the inevitable happens.
I truly think no amount of "don't make your dream game" and "set small goals" advice works for anyone, no matter how smart they.
That knot in your chest may suck right now, but it'll be a valuable problem detector in future projects.
Life has just Dark souls'd you.
You are never meant to beat the first boss. You were just meant to take a few sobering lessons into the real game...
Thanks for this - it’s true. And it’s part of the big process. Learning and growing and making better games in the future!
Why's to want to kill my game?
The reality it's I don't following eny off your steps on My game.
My game although it's big scope it's position.
And I understand the system I tried to make and ECT.
I hope you don’t want to kill your game! This was more of a “don’t do this” than anything. Keep going!
I have watched you post this video on social media for weeks instead of actually working on anything.
If you want to do good work, do it. If all you wanted was to say you were work won a game, you're exactly like all those idiots when I was a teenager I met at the music store, trying to sell kids drugs by telling them you play an instrument.
Essentially a con artist 😂
Dude, your totally right, I wish I would have done more to help the game get completed. This was by far one of the best, and hardest lessons I learned from this experience. Game dev is SOOO messy, and isn't black and white. I appreciate your feedback, and thanks for being here!
@@SoulEngineDev you just have to work man, it's like any other thing.
If you are not dedicated to learning software and being the sole director, then what is the point? You can't have 20 managers and 1 programmer, that's the dumbest thing ever.
Learn how to program games through the terminal, a text game, by scratch, or don't do it at all. you'll get easily discouraged by basically nothing all the time.
An advice To all those who want to make money with their games : stop making games
Y'all either stop now or stop after wasting 3 Years of your life
It can definitely feel discouraging to do something like game dev. But it’s been a dream of mine forever and I do believe it’s possible to find success, even if it’s a hard journey. Thanks for being here!
What’s the Discord?
It’s linked in this video description!
Man this sucks to hear but what’s important is that you’ve learned what not to do next time lol.
For sure. Thanks for the support! We’re excited for what’s next.