I tried being a paid GM. I am as poor as a church mouse, and TPD (total permanent disabled) Now I have played DnD for around 40 years (im soo old), but only heard of paid GMing like 3 years ago. So I thought why not give it a try, once per week, so I could maintain my energy and quality. I advertised and got just the best (I am so spoiled), really the best group of players. And we have so much fun, I just couldnt bring myself to keep getting paid, when I was getting so much out of the game. They wanted to keep paying, so I negotiated that we would split the cost of any new book or module. They all bought me really nice Christmas presents too.
Reading this, I hope you'll allow me the audacity to assume we were raised (at least with respect to money) similarly. I also get awkward about accepting money, even when it's for hard physical labor that I've done for someone, but the truth is that money allows you to continue doing those things and to do them better. You aren't doing your players any favors not accepting payment for your work when you (to use examples from my own life) have to sacrifice prep time for your 9-5 or have to skip a session to work overtime, can't continue the campaign because you can't afford the next book of the trilogy, or can't run because now that we're playing online I need a faster connection, which doesn't fit my budget. I'm not telling you that you have to start charging, just saying you shouldn't feel guilty for it if you do.
I own a game store in Fairfax, VA and we do a lot of what SPG does but we run our games in person and vet each Gamemaster via both a personal interview and a "technical" interview, and our GMs are all referrals so they've been at least somewhat vetted before they get to the interview.
I didn't mean for that to be an advertisement so I edited out the store name. My point was that if SPG did something like a technical assessment, they could use it to provide something like a price bracket for what a GM should consider charging for their games based on their performance compared to other GMs on the platform. It'd still be very subjective, but it would help address many of the issues you identify in the video and increase trust/expectation management
@3nertia it varies as we do the interviews as a panel with 3 of our sitting GMs, but generally the questions involve how the candidate handles issues such as player conflict at the table, dealing with lines and veils, what motivated them to become a GM, etc. Basically trying to get a feel for their temperament, personality, and how much passion they have for gaming. Each of our GMs run as many as 5 different groups each week, and we work to make each session a quality experience so that takes a pretty heavy commitment of time and effort by each GM. The nice thing is because we have that structure, each of our GMs can bounce ideas and help each other with prep and so far we've done a good job avoiding burnout
Thanks for the video! Paid GMing is something I've considered for a while. I have the curse where I just CAN'T not care about my games too much and put way too much effort into prepping/running them, so I think I definitely need to at least try it and this video was really insightful.
I've been a consistent SPG player for a few months now. My DM is wonderful, uses many modules, a well kept discord server, and is usually very responsive to messages. He runs about 7 games a week (2 a day, morning and afternoon games) and he does this full time pretty comfortably. He charges 25 a session and they're roughly 3 hours long. He doesn't just do DnD, he does many different games let alone campaigns. I understand your critiques, and it takes a lot of work. But my DM is very happy as a full time DM and he's been doing it FT since 21 :) When I scroll through SPG I see a whole lot of people who run 5+ games. So it's disappointing to hear even that doesn't cover enough costs for a full time job for most people.
While I have nothing against paid GM'ing, the average price going around $15-$25/session just hurts my wallet as someone who is barely scraping by with only one daily meal due to cost of living. I get that it's the same for the GM, and I wish I could afford it, but I don't have the stability to really commit to always having those funds
Paid GM myself. I play a free game for friends once or twice a week, the paid gm thing is meant to be a side gig. Paying for DM'ing isn't for everyone, but some people have a disposable income and are happy to pay for a well-run game where the GM puts in a certain level of effort and the game has direction. I'm benefiting from something that they are happy to give, if I liked someone but they can't pay due to life issues (and I like them) I recommend my for-friends game as an alternative so I can keep playing with them.
Totally get that, and if you wanna keep trying to play online, there are some for under $10 and some that are free. Or when i started I couldn’t afford it after a few months in and spoke to the dm about it whom halved the price for me. I hope you get to have a great online experience!
I have ran live gaming for many years (20+) and the most I ever saw was a table cover charge of $2/person. That is fine as a hobby, I ran 1 or 2 sessions a week (anywhere from 3-8 hour sessions. [We used to play a lot longer in the past!]) Payed for books no problem. I cannot understand who has the money to drop $25-$50+ Per Person Per Session!?!?
@@hrayz it’s true not everyone can, but its also only like $80-$100 a month at those prices (20-25 in this example) which sounds like a lot but most people spend that much every few days eating out. Most people don’t realize how much money they are actually wasting day to day so might as well shift it to something you really enjoy. Also some dms do it as a serious hustle so they put a lotta effort and time into it as well as buying everything required and monthly subscriptions to even run games. you also don’t HAVE to Play every session each month if you work something out with your dm. I’m currently in one that I only play two sessions of each month.
Thanks so much for sharing this insider info about what it's like to be a paid GM. I have been curious about this, wondering if it's something I could do in retirement. I already have a Discord channel or 2 set up for my friends, and you make it sound like a feasible endeavor. Sounds like a cool way to be reimbursed for the hard work of being a GM! It is a labor of love, but it's a big job!
There’s a bar in Portland TPK Brewery where you can hire private DMs with an awesome private room in a tavern! It’s so worth it. Cost is usually about $50 per session per player for the game, whatever food & drinks on top of that. Playing with a Professional DMs reminded me of flying first class the first time.
Cheers! You definitely summed it up in the end. GMing is a craft unlike any before and the GM's that put the time, effort, and work to improve on their craft deserve to be compensated. 🙌🏽🙌🏽
@19:00 you mention your rates. So how much is that in your pocket and how much goes to SPG? Do you have any other costs (except prep time and books) like Ads? I really like the "This had Value" section near the end. I agree. Just not sure I am at that level. The following questions are not for starting but for planning... Looking forward to your response. Are you hard on the subscriptions? DNDBeyond? Roll20 or another VTT? Discord? Dscryb? A Maps Patreon? Book budget for the year ($50 book every 3 months = $200/year in Books)? High-speed internet? Hardware Upgrade Budget (computer/desk/lights/mic)? Do you do videos for just yourself (voices and acting in your RPGs), or just Audio when you are DM'ing? Do you ask/require your players to show their faces (Video) for play? Do you go for Theatre of the Mind or do you try to do Maps and tactical combats? I know you are looking at me like - Why are you trying to give your players the Rolls-Royce when you are getting paid Honda Civic price? Goest back to the "this has value" section of the video.
Hey, these are great questions. I wanted to cover everything but the video would’ve been alot longer. I’d love to make a part 2 down the line , getting into the weeds of it and answering these sorts of questions so keep em coming and thanks for watching
9:11 I feel like the best way to do this would be to have GMs make a short video about their DMing style (like on Fiverr), that way players can get a feeling of what kind of DM the DM is.
Looks like a great service. I've been trying to find some harder to find games and no luck and it seems there are a lot of good option and as far as the price is concerned it seems inline with what my local Meetup group charges for gaming sessions and reasonable given how much time I have wasted on "free" games where no one shows up. I signed on for a Fate game next week
Yeah DnD is the most popular. But hey if you can gather some friends up maybe you can convince a dm to run a diff game for you? I did a horror blades in the dark one shot for my birthday. But overall yeah I wish more people would run some of the weirder games
A fellow SPG GM! Great to see! Good video, I agree about the review/rating system needing a rework. And the player profiles. Have you thought about posting/streaming your games? Thats what I'm doing and I've actually gotten players from it!
We have now seen how paid GM'ing has grown into the mainstream and and how some have started to think that it would be weird or suspicious if someone didn't pay for it. And I think one of the biggest reasons for its popularity has been that more people find it is easy and simple way to get money from TTRPG tapletops in return for the increase in book prices and for the effort and the time you have spent on them. Some have also say that it also keeps out the problem and unwanted players when you set the price your campaigns and individual sessions correctly. Unfortunately, it has also increased the number of feedback when players complain that they don't have enough money or desire to pay for games because they need it elsewhere in their lives or they're just generally pissed off about paywalls and microtransactions or or their parents refuse to pay for the games on their behalf. Or it can also create horror stories, like the one I just read where players had used in the middle of a paid campaign because the GM charged extra to use the bathroom in their house. But maybe at some point a good balance will be found that is suitable for everyone - at least I hope so myself - but until then, I guess this is still a time of searching and self-examination regarding the limits and wallets before paid GM'ing can finally settle down.
It's always confused me how people think players won't pay to be an absolute jerk. Likthde we already see this happening everywhere in life; Anyone, rich or poor, can behave unexpectedly. "Set price correctly." Can only wall off people based on wealth class, not personality, that's what talking is for. (Though, the ultra wealthy do tend to be distinct in a bad way.)
This was really interesting. I'm old--I've been playing DnD since the late 70s and Dming most of that time. About a year ago it occurred to me--is this something I could make money with in retirement? I'm still a decade or so away from retirement, but definitely at the age where I'm thinking about it. I have also had a bias about paying someone to DM for decades, but I'm starting to see a place for this. I think my bias stems from always playing with friends. RPGs are a great thing to do with friends, and I don't want to charge my friends to hang out and play. However, the point you make toward the end about putting a lot of time and energy into something and the players aren't into it, whereas when they have some $ skin in the game they care more....this is.....very interesting. I can see doing this for people I don't know that come to it interested in what is on offer. I think I'll probably look into this. The only thing I was left wondering was--how long is your average session? Thanks for this!
I love being a DM and have many players complement on their experience Have never thought about charging for games, but being a DM does cost time & money
The rating issue and the tagging system is a mistake. I'm a story teller as a general rule... normally. BUT with some players I change the way I GM and the game becomes focuses on dungeon delving, or combat and I encourage min/maxing. In other words, I model my games based both the system and the players.
I signed up on SPG the about the same time you did... mostly out of just curiosity. I pitched a one-shot game to them, and got it approved. Then I started having doubts, and never did anything with it. And in that time, you make $10k. Maybe I need to give it a go. Thanks for the video!
I'm an old school player. I started with AD&D when I was in my early 20's. In my 40's I played the 3.5 version. I'm now 61, and I've never played the 5e version but I'm interested in looking into it. In the old days players would buy their snacks for the game and they'd rotate on buying snacks for the DM. Buying snacks for the DM was always considered the norm, as a way of thanking him for going through all the work of creating the world for the players to have fun with in. The idea of paying DM's for a game is a new thing for me, but if DMs want to start charging players a reasonable price instead of us buying snacks for it, then I don't mind paying. As to whether or not a DM is worth the price they're asking...a player has always had the right to shop around at tables till they find a DM that suits the way they like to play. The web site you talk about sounds interesting. I'll have a look at it. Thanks.
I haven't been able to find live games in my area because my work schedule simply doesn't line up with our local groups. SPG has changed that. Now I can find games at pretty much any time of day and day of the week. While it's not the same as playing in person, I've been having a lot of fun.
Thanks for your experience! I inched my prices up from $5, because I hadn't ran for years before I got into SPG. This is the green flag for my next campaign to be $25.
Honestly for me session 0 is one of the most labor intensive because its followed up by hours of discussions in between that and session 1 , so its a lot of man hours lol
Hey, good afternoon. Well done and I stayed for the entire video. I have been running on SPG for almost two years now and I have finished about 7 campaigns. Before charging I never finished any campaigns, like ever. I do wish I could advertise and I probably need to have better copy on my game descriptions. I wonder about that. I wish you well and good luck to your channel. I have subscribed so you now have one more.
Ive played in a few games using SPG. #1 was a special horror 1-shot with all my friends the gm used Blades in the Dark. It was such an awesome experience and super memorable. My second was a Call of Cthulhu one shot - it was good and i liked the gm but there was a player who I felt was kind of at odds with the party. Im not sure if this was a story choice or just the way the player decided to play it. I definitely want to keep playing more games there! Biggest complaints are like you said - not knowing a gms style. Though if you message them they will probably send you a link to a livestream/play session but i wish GMs could provide more details, examples, videos on their page. The second and this is no fault of SPG but I wish i could find more games/times for other smaller systems.
Im now trying a couple of games on SPG, but honestly Im still conflicted ... if Im willing to pay / weekly what a full time GM who sees it as a job would charge. I guess Im kinda still hoping to find a GM who sees it as a colloborative experience +some compensation for his prep time rather than as a JOB ... I really wanna play with friends not contractors ...but I guess it is what it is.
Great ideas - and absolutely agree with the player critique ...the GM ranking system is useless, its impossible to really tell if the GM is any good or match your prefered style OR if the other players and you would mesh well.
i never liked the idea of pay to play DMing as you cant just kick players if they are extra crappy to everyone at the table and paying would make them feel entitled to god level dming and treatment. i have never charged anyone and i have never payed to play a game. if i was gonna take money i would set up a voluntary donation system and i would scalp players form spg as im sure they would appreciate not being forced to pay but then donate out of good will.
You absolutely can kick out players. Their money is not worth ruining the experiences of others. I’ve had a few bad dms but even then the players made the (albeit temporary) experience more fun. You’re not forced to play with a dm or party you don’t like and that’s another great thing about these kinda sites. All that being said you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion and playstyle. 👍
I've been running pay-to-play games for 3 years now and I could point out all the misconceptions in your statement but would encourage you to actually give it a try and see for yourself instead. Have a great week !
If you feel bad on being a paid GM, don't. A friend of mine told me, when I was having my doubts, that a GM is like a performer. People will pay according to your performance. Plus, in my case, I was doing it as part-time to get money for minis. More money, more minis/terrain, more fun games. I think for me, if I was doing it as a primary job, I'd get stressed out with something I love to do.
I feel like it's like eating with friends. Whether you meet at each other's house or pay to go to a restaurant or Cafe and pay others for the venue or food is really up to you and your friends.
That's why I, as a DM have returned to IP at a real table . Back to basics. My only thing I ask for is 2-5 bucks for gas in tips( 50 miles travel both ways) If there is a demand for that market( and there is) good for those Dms who do it. I've invested 1000's on my books and accessories. I'm not going to invest 1000's more. As far as applying for being a player, I tell potential player what to expect. No x cards, no politics at the table.(only game politics and intrigue) OSR.
My personal PGM journey started in 2019 on ye olde roll20. I primarily started doing it because online players are just as unreliable as online GMs. I put a lot of work into my games and it was just very disheartening to see players flip flop on you. But as you said, once you put a price tag onto something and add monetary value, the more serious, decidated players show up. Sure you also do sometimes get players that have been rejected by free tables a lot. But most of the time it's not because they are bad players. Maybe they sound funny, or suffer from ADHS or other mental health problems. I have had very few actual problem players throughout this. I think the biggest "problem players" are the ones who arrive at your table with the mindset of: i pay for this game, so i am allowed to come with whatever overpowered/crazy character idea my mind came up with. Anyhow. I did started on roll20. and back then there was a lot more legwork to do to get players on board. I switched to SPG like 2 years ago actively. Primarly because i switched from roll20 to foundry and from 5E to PF2E as my primary game offering. I also offer different systems to have a pallette cleanser for myself. Should you become a paid GM? Hell nah! The marked is already overcrowded as is! - KIDDING Do it if you want to have fun, reliable, dedicated players and you think you can keep a schedule. A lot of players not only pay for a good game, but also a game that they can sit down to EVERY GORRAM WEEK GOD CREATED. - So keep that in mind.
20:30 We are all here to play a fantasy game, escape from reality for awhile and immerse ourselves into other worlds Modern day politics should be an afterthought all together, if you are left or right (very American way of thinking). Main thing a DM wants is party/player cohesion
I've been a dm and player on SPG for a year and a half, I'm coming close to my 1000th session and I'm loving it. I appreciate the ability to rationalize grand prep, making awesome artwork, situations and events to run my players through. I also like seeing other DMs do the same when I'm in their session. Starting out I honestly thought the paid aspect was going to be more of a mood killer than it turned out to be. Occasionally I do struggle with the "I want to shove as much content into a session as possible to get the most out of a session." But I've learned to pace myself. The most reasonable take I've heard from players is that the cost is akin to bringing snacks, travel, or other things to a physical dnd table. I kinda wish I could do what I do for free, but life is expensive, I don't charge nearly as much as what I often see from other DMs and honestly I'm making more than I did at other jobs working 60hrs a week.
i have played a lot of free dnd, a lot of tables ended early, some lasted a few tears. i’m playing a payed table now and the dm is great and consistent
Im tempted to try paid dming as i have more than a half decade experience running games at this point, but the thing is, I love worldbuilding, and prefer to write my own adventures, come up with all original ideas etc. I only ever tried to run a prewritten adventure myself but i decided to swap the setting but ended up just using the book as a vague guide and tool box. It wouldnt be worth the cash for all the effort that im not sure i could sto myself from putting in. Plus im only used to playing with people i know generally, and curating the game for them. Idk maybe my style just doesnt mesh the best for commodifying it as a skill, but then again, maybe i could look at running something not 5e which ive wanted to get away from, though. That could be a reason to go for something more prewritten. I can put too much pressure on myself for my home game too, idk what it would be like with the responsibility of being paid for it
Great video. When running a session or campaign do you sometimes have 2nd thoughts about things that may kill one of the players? I would think, well they are paying I don't want them to die.
Seems like The GM could have some premade characters available for players whose character died, or let them run an NPC, or create a mechanic that makes them a monster or ghost operating in opposition to the party in small tricky ways which don't throw off the balance of the game too much. Great point you bring up. I don't have much experience yet as a GM, I've run a few games but no one has died yet. I like to make tense encounters with some way out that the story can provide. The bad guys take prisoners, or the seamonster eats you and now you're exploring its insides like an unexpected dungeon. The game needs to be dangerous to make player choices have value, but there are a lot of variables. I watch a lot of videos so I have thoughts, but I'm still waiting for my players to open the wrong portcullis and I'll have to put my plans into action so they have something to do when their character gets roasted. In the past I was kinda steering the game so they wouldn't die, but I want to implement these things I've mentioned above to see how it goes. as Brandish Gilhelm of RUNEHAMMER GAMES always says, "Don't Fudge Dice Rolls! It's the worst most evil thing you can do to fail your players and create a false reality." By this I take it to mean, the dice are the core of the game, and whatever numbers come up, there's always a way to tell a compelling story whether the numbers are high or low.
As a GM of over 30 years...hey I did this all through covid for cash and or PRIZES...but many of the newbies that are not part of the culture of TTRPG. It's hard when you tell people that you only let 18+ play and younger people come in. It's also hard when people had no idea what is and in not normal. It's to a lot of people watch crittical role and expect it to be like that.
Back in the old days (the game I ran lasted for seven years on a weekly schedule and the game itself is now 45 years old) I was called all sorts of nastiness for having an only 18 and over rule for that group.
DM shortage? well... maybe, I actually looked for a grp to GM for once, and I found one right away, played through a campaign with them and they all loved it. And I did enjoy it, I enjoy being a GM, but getting paid for it? I dont know.... that feels like getting paid for doing other stuff that you usually do willingly with other people for fun, you know what I mean? It doesnt sit well with me ....
Paid GMing doesn't invalidate home gaming. Just think of it like any other service. You don't charge your family or friends when you make them a home cooked meal, you do it out of love or because you like to. But you also have a skill, and sometimes it's something you're willing to leverage into making money, and other people are willing to pay for it. That's why restaurants exist. The existence of restaurants isn't immoral simply because parents who cook for their kids exist. It's there for people who don't have access to someone to provide the service to them for free, or for whatever reason feel like accessing a premium level of service for once. I run for my friends for free, and I love it. I'm looking into doing paid GMing because I like running for new people, but my experience running for randos for free has been pretty bad and unrewarding, and I quickly drop it. If I could vet people by ensuring they were dedicated enough to pay, and I had the incentive of being paid and satisfying paying clients, I think I would stick with it and feel more fulfilled and productive. Not everyone who likes to cook needs to go work at a restaurant, you're totally free to continue doing it as a hobby and service to your friends. But not everyone is the same.
At 21:12 (oddly my old home address number and a Rush album) you mention that one consideration to make for people running games is if someone is “pro AI”. I am curious what that means specifically to you. Do you mean “is a player you okay with people having ChatGPT create adventures” or Dali creating art for their games or not? I am 46, have been playing D&D since high school and AI makes me feel even older haha. However, I have used ChatGPT in certain ways. For instance, I may throw in some text about a town I made and ask for it to give me a story about the town as seen through the eyes of a child street urchin. The results are mostly generic and boring, but it does get me thinking from a different perspective. Talking about AI regarding TTRPGs seems like such a broad topic, which is why I was wondering more about what you meant here. BTW I love this video and you seem like you are a very fun DM! Cheers!
SPG double charged my table and support didn't refund them for 5 days. I paid them myself out of pocket. I had messaged Devin about it and he wasn't helpful. I dropped the platform after they got their refunds and never looked back. I don't need a middleman messing with my players money.
You also want to consider things like health insurance before leave a full time job that provides it. Retirement savings, etc. Definitely seems better as a part time job.
I wonder what is the experience of SPG GM's that run other games rather than just DnD. If they have the same success rate or amount of players willing to join them if they are new GMs with no previous ratings.
Here in Germany, you get dirty looks, are denied and thrown out if you accept payment for running a game. I only charge one euro per player per hour and almost everyone is rude about that. Getting paid to run a game is a very taboo subject here. I have already been removed from several German forums because I offered a paid game, even though it doesn't violate the terms and conditions, I specifically checked beforehand whether I was even allowed to advertise paid games. I was even threatened that I would be taken to court because I don't own the rights to "Curse of Strahd". If I get paid to run a game of "Curse of Strahd", I'm selling the module (I mean, what??), so they say. And the tax authorities would be sent after me because I was committing tax fraud (again, what??) The paid GMs that exist in Germany have to keep a low profile or simply run games for a foreign group. TTRPGs seem to be a very, very serious issue for Germans in Germany.
Wow, that's crazy to hear, especially the argument about the "right" to run a paid module. Consider WOTC has officially partnered with Paid DMing sites, it's strange to hear such an insane level of taboo. Hope the situation gets better!
I'd play more if I had people that would commit. I see this as filtering players/GMs, if anyone is willing to pay or get paid then their more likely to show up.
I don't like how they can amend the terms without notice. "We may amend Terms at any time by posting the amended terms on this site. It is your responsibility to review these Terms periodically." They should at least email you before a change of terms takes effect. edit: they estimate it takes 20 minute to read their terms. They expect users to periodically spend 20 minutes rereading a ToS to see if it changed.
I've never paid to play a game before. Is that $25 per session or per hour? I know some sessions can go 3-4 hours or longer. That could get rather spendy. Or do you limit sessions to an hour? I don't think I would like that either as some encounters take longer than that alone.
Very interesting video! 20:55 Sorry, I didn’t quite understand what you meant by pro AI here. Did you mean that GMs ban people who are “pro AI”? Why, do players use AI or something…? Or did you mean the GMs are pro AI? Sorry I didn’t understand the context of this statement. I have absolutely no idea what AI has to do with TTRPGs and D&D LOL.
That might assuage my unreasonable guilt about taking people's time and i've no excuse not to renumerate people in my *current* circumstance (at least while that lasts). thanks for the nudge.
Something not mentioned is how does the act of paying the GM change the game. How many players die …shit, definitely meant characters…how many characters die when you are being paid IF they are alive. Coming back into the hobby after 200 or 300 years off and it seems like it’s impossible for characters to die in 5e. So maybe it doesn’t matter, but I’d be interested to know if a character ever died in the entire history of Start Playing 😂 (note: I’ve played 3 high level 5e one shots via Start Playing and it was loads of fun)
Looking at games and reviews, a lot of them have trigger warnings for player death, and I've seen at least one review from a player saying their character died (and they praised the DM for helping them through it gracefully).
For those who have done this: my fear is that if GMing were to be a job for me, it would become... well, a job, that I would lose my passion for it. I am prone to burnout (probably due to undiagnosed ADHD). Has anyone had this issue? If not, how do you stave it off?
I would say just run and schedule one-shots and short adventures at your convenience, rather than posting up a long-running campaign with a committed schedule. SPG doesn't have a requirement to have x amount of games scheduled at all times. Then you can take breaks whenever you want.
Except most people couldn’t afford Mercer’s per hour rate just based on his probable rate as a veteran professional voice actor, which is far less work and effort than he puts into his games.
@@haysmcgee801 100%, his celebrity status alone would put him in a very expensive rate. I assumed the question was "if mercer was just a regular dude" and I think alot of SPG GMs are very good at worldbuilding and prose
@@nioret_ oh no doubt there are some amazing pro-GMs out there that I feel are offering their services for way undervalue in-general. A per-person per-session pay structure is not what I would call fair, but that’s up to the market to decide. People in general are always going to pay as little as they can get away with. I think as a paid service, Pro-GMing is going to have to go through the same process as the pro-artist service, a lot of people not knowing how to actually value their time and/or the quality of the services they offer. Then getting people to pay it. However I think that a way to start establishing this is by considering what the very top of the craft looks like and putting a comparative and competitive value on it. Hence my comment about what Mercer would make as a voice actor of his caliber. My wife and I are both voice actors and I was also a graphic designer, a freelance writer and a game developer. I think that the skill set necessary for a GM to be of a caliber that they could then be considered a professional is a bit more than an amateur or “free” gm is required to have. I think that if an entry point standard is made then we could, and should see more full time GMs who make more than a living wage. The reason I haven’t become a professional GM is because I don’t know coding and don’t know how to use modern VTTs. When I run games online it’s over discord or zoom. People roll physical dice and I may use something like a shared screen of TaleSpire to handle large combats. I think that expecting a certain quality of GM when you pay for it is fine. But expecting every paid gm to be the very top of their craft with a production quality of a studio behind it when you would likely pay the pro-gm less for a 4 hour session than is would cost take a date to a casual dinner and a movie is a bit, well, silly.
@@nioret_ oh no doubt there are some amazing pro-GMs out there that I feel are offering their services for way undervalue in-general. A per-person per-session pay structure is not what I would call fair, but that’s up to the market to decide. People in general are always going to pay as little as they can get away with. I think as a paid service, Pro-GMing is going to have to go through the same process as the pro-artist service, a lot of people not knowing how to actually value their time and/or the quality of the services they offer. Then getting people to pay it. However I think that a way to start establishing this is by considering what the very top of the craft looks like and putting a comparative and competitive value on it. Hence my comment about what Mercer would make as a voice actor of his caliber. My wife and I are both voice actors and I was also a graphic designer, a freelance writer and a game developer. I think that the skill set necessary for a GM to be of a caliber that they could then be considered a professional is a bit more than an amateur or “free” gm is required to have. I think that if an entry point standard is made then we could, and should see more full time GMs who make more than a living wage. The reason I haven’t become a professional GM is because I don’t know coding and don’t know how to use modern VTTs. When I run games online it’s over discord or zoom. People roll physical dice and I may use something like a shared screen of TaleSpire to handle large combats. I think that expecting a certain quality of GM when you pay for it is fine. But expecting every paid gm to be the very top of their craft with a production quality of a studio behind it when you would likely pay the pro-gm less for a 4 hour session than is would cost take a date to a casual dinner and a movie is a bit, well, silly.
i would like to be a paid DM for many reasons. But as many reasons i have why i think it would be good, i have like 50x times more reasons why i couldnt do it. sadge
If I were to set up a GM vetting system, I would take a short stock 1-shot adventure with an estimated 4 hour run time. Guve them 24 hours to study, and having a hiring team of 4 players play under the DM fir the adventure. I would probably judge on 4 criteria: How did they make the adventure their own? How did they handle derail attempts? How did they handle combat? How did they handle Descriptions and Roleplay? Derail attempts would consist of random things like a player needing a bathroom break, someone chewing loudly into their microphone, a player arguing rules, a player refusing the 'call to adventure', etc
I would probably just do it for extra spending cash and just let then pay like $5 each. I would probably only do it for people who desperately want a DM online and never for my personal play groups. I would be honest and let them test it out.
Need to replace with examples from games. At least an hour longn not just hughlights But players need to sign waivers or opt in, making context hard. But no good solutions. But have to balance risks/rewards. I have paid $20 for food I didn't like. No bug deal. Paying $10,000 for a lawyer you can't vet is normal.
So as a player who pays for games, it's mostly online and it's for the ability to use the vtt, and get books. Now my current and longest paid dm. Basically runs ic-chats in text which can be whole second sessions during our off playtime. Mixed in with occasional doing 1v1 super chats, which can Basically be like a 1v1 section with npcs or important events. If you're asking how big or crazy this can get. Summary: We've had player's die in theese chats, it's that intense.
Paid DMing is like hiring a personal trainer imo. Sure you could ask your friend to do it and hey they might even be great at it, but if you want consistency and regular sessions paying is the way to go. Another positive is that bad players kinda filter themselves more. Everyone at the table has a stake in the success of the sesssion because they paid to be there. Compared to my friend sessions theres a LOT less checking out and the players are more present and active.
LOL that comment about the only GM on Microsoft Teams. My game is literally on MS Teams. Don't care for Discord. I use Teams, Webcam, Foundry VTT, D&DB.
I know i want to play D&D And want to experience it organically. But I didn't grow a privilege so I don't exactly have what I believe I need a PC or technical know how to do it the way I want to. Scared shirtless when it comes down to trying to find a group and failing to know what I'm doing on the technical side. An awkwardness. That fear is easy realize when I hear and see all the stories of other players or DMs. I just feel like a lot of its luck and privilege to find a good DM in group. And the two or three groups that I know that I feel like I would have a great experience with I feel like yeah as if I would be lucky enough to get brought into that group I'm sure they have a long list. Feels really hard to figure out how to get started when you don't really got money. Your PC is like 11 years old. And you try to limit how you interact with that thing I don't feel breaking it cuz you won't have the money to replace it. Wish I had good exposure to it in my earlier years. So far the best I do is live by carelessly by watching streamers. And as you say I kind of live in fear of having my first experience ruined. Because I have so many ideas of things I want to do. Or try. But I just can't imagine someone having the patience for a newbie like me. Oh know how to help me learn. I'm one of those people that really struggled to learn something if it's not hands on and in person. But if it showed to me in hand in person one or two times then I tend to Long really quickly. Obviously that means I have my pros and cons but sometimes I wish I could lower those pros. Because I feel the future diem in favors being able to loan offhand.
SPG and Roll20 are running a new players event this upcoming week. Try looking into it, and remember that it's just a game. Liveplays will give you a lot of expectations sometimes, but keep in mind those people are putting in a lot of effort to make a good show for you. At the table it's much more casual, and you can easily find something low-commitment and low-pressure to start off, and work up to bigger games. Find a way to start playing and build up experience. I can't say your first experience will for sure be good, but it's very dependent on the people you play with. If you have a bad experience, drop that group and try again. If you have technical problems, look for a play-by-post or a local in-person one-time event. Don't pressure yourself. The game wouldn't exist if new players didn't learn, there's always someone out there willing to teach. I just spent four hours teaching someone over Zoom, and that was way more than they needed.
Finding out if a GM is good is hard because it can just be a personal thing. For example, I really liked the content of the video and wanted to hear it all, but at the same time couldn't stand the way he talked. I would be so mad if I had paid for a few hours of gaming with him.
Great video, i have considered doing paid DM a lot, i feel like i do a good job meeting my players expectations and satisfaction but there are times i feel pretty tired to do my usual free games. But i have more questions, maybe you could do a follow up video with "Do i have what it takes to charge for dnd ?" What about the limitations ? Do i use roll20 or foundry or something else entirely ? Can i use premade modules ? Any module ? Can i run homebrew ? Do i need to have the digital book ? Are music limited to paid libraries or can i just use abot like Maki to play spotify playlists on Discord ? Is it fine to just keep using images from google search as assets for npcs, maps and tokens ?
The adult games without a solid age verification system are a risk I certainly wouldn’t be looking to take were this my business. More power to the people looking to do that sort of thing between consenting adults, but it’s only a matter of time before you see someone for whom that caveat wouldn’t apply to winding up in a game like that if it hasn’t happened already. Newish system means there’s going to be some wrinkles to iron out, but it’s not hard to see ahead of time that that’s a potential problem area.
Great video. Nice to see the POV of a paid GM (I m a paid player). One critique though: I find your constant hand mouvements distracting, and slightly annoying. I little bit is fine, but I humbly think you should tune it down, it would improve the quality of the video. Cheers.
I tried being a paid GM. I am as poor as a church mouse, and TPD (total permanent disabled) Now I have played DnD for around 40 years (im soo old), but only heard of paid GMing like 3 years ago. So I thought why not give it a try, once per week, so I could maintain my energy and quality.
I advertised and got just the best (I am so spoiled), really the best group of players. And we have so much fun, I just couldnt bring myself to keep getting paid, when I was getting so much out of the game.
They wanted to keep paying, so I negotiated that we would split the cost of any new book or module. They all bought me really nice Christmas presents too.
So glad it worked out for you! I know alot of Pro DMs that are disabled and this is a wonderful way to provide an opportunity for paid work.
❤ beautiful
My friends insisted I set up a Patreon so they could help cover costs.
Reading this, I hope you'll allow me the audacity to assume we were raised (at least with respect to money) similarly.
I also get awkward about accepting money, even when it's for hard physical labor that I've done for someone, but the truth is that money allows you to continue doing those things and to do them better. You aren't doing your players any favors not accepting payment for your work when you (to use examples from my own life) have to sacrifice prep time for your 9-5 or have to skip a session to work overtime, can't continue the campaign because you can't afford the next book of the trilogy, or can't run because now that we're playing online I need a faster connection, which doesn't fit my budget.
I'm not telling you that you have to start charging, just saying you shouldn't feel guilty for it if you do.
Wonderful...thanks for sharing that. I'm really glad that worked out for you.
I own a game store in Fairfax, VA and we do a lot of what SPG does but we run our games in person and vet each Gamemaster via both a personal interview and a "technical" interview, and our GMs are all referrals so they've been at least somewhat vetted before they get to the interview.
I wish I still lived near Fairfax. Yhat sounds amazing.
I didn't mean for that to be an advertisement so I edited out the store name. My point was that if SPG did something like a technical assessment, they could use it to provide something like a price bracket for what a GM should consider charging for their games based on their performance compared to other GMs on the platform. It'd still be very subjective, but it would help address many of the issues you identify in the video and increase trust/expectation management
I would love to know what all the vetting process entails? What are the interview questions?
@3nertia it varies as we do the interviews as a panel with 3 of our sitting GMs, but generally the questions involve how the candidate handles issues such as player conflict at the table, dealing with lines and veils, what motivated them to become a GM, etc. Basically trying to get a feel for their temperament, personality, and how much passion they have for gaming. Each of our GMs run as many as 5 different groups each week, and we work to make each session a quality experience so that takes a pretty heavy commitment of time and effort by each GM. The nice thing is because we have that structure, each of our GMs can bounce ideas and help each other with prep and so far we've done a good job avoiding burnout
I live nearby, what’s the store? Would love to drop in for a one shot sometime.
You should have covered how much SPG takes from your session payment and the per session fee they charge the players as well.
Thanks for the video!
Paid GMing is something I've considered for a while. I have the curse where I just CAN'T not care about my games too much and put way too much effort into prepping/running them, so I think I definitely need to at least try it and this video was really insightful.
I've been a consistent SPG player for a few months now. My DM is wonderful, uses many modules, a well kept discord server, and is usually very responsive to messages. He runs about 7 games a week (2 a day, morning and afternoon games) and he does this full time pretty comfortably. He charges 25 a session and they're roughly 3 hours long. He doesn't just do DnD, he does many different games let alone campaigns. I understand your critiques, and it takes a lot of work. But my DM is very happy as a full time DM and he's been doing it FT since 21 :) When I scroll through SPG I see a whole lot of people who run 5+ games. So it's disappointing to hear even that doesn't cover enough costs for a full time job for most people.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
While I have nothing against paid GM'ing, the average price going around $15-$25/session just hurts my wallet as someone who is barely scraping by with only one daily meal due to cost of living. I get that it's the same for the GM, and I wish I could afford it, but I don't have the stability to really commit to always having those funds
100% agree, everyone's situation is different and professional DMing is 100% a luxury, especially in current times
Paid GM myself. I play a free game for friends once or twice a week, the paid gm thing is meant to be a side gig. Paying for DM'ing isn't for everyone, but some people have a disposable income and are happy to pay for a well-run game where the GM puts in a certain level of effort and the game has direction. I'm benefiting from something that they are happy to give, if I liked someone but they can't pay due to life issues (and I like them) I recommend my for-friends game as an alternative so I can keep playing with them.
Totally get that, and if you wanna keep trying to play online, there are some for under $10 and some that are free. Or when i started I couldn’t afford it after a few months in and spoke to the dm about it whom halved the price for me. I hope you get to have a great online experience!
I have ran live gaming for many years (20+) and the most I ever saw was a table cover charge of $2/person. That is fine as a hobby, I ran 1 or 2 sessions a week (anywhere from 3-8 hour sessions. [We used to play a lot longer in the past!]) Payed for books no problem.
I cannot understand who has the money to drop $25-$50+ Per Person Per Session!?!?
@@hrayz it’s true not everyone can, but its also only like $80-$100 a month at those prices (20-25 in this example) which sounds like a lot but most people spend that much every few days eating out. Most people don’t realize how much money they are actually wasting day to day so might as well shift it to something you really enjoy. Also some dms do it as a serious hustle so they put a lotta effort and time into it as well as buying everything required and monthly subscriptions to even run games. you also don’t HAVE to Play every session each month if you work something out with your dm. I’m currently in one that I only play two sessions of each month.
Thanks so much for sharing this insider info about what it's like to be a paid GM. I have been curious about this, wondering if it's something I could do in retirement. I already have a Discord channel or 2 set up for my friends, and you make it sound like a feasible endeavor. Sounds like a cool way to be reimbursed for the hard work of being a GM! It is a labor of love, but it's a big job!
😁just wrote basically the same thing.
There’s a bar in Portland TPK Brewery where you can hire private DMs with an awesome private room in a tavern! It’s so worth it. Cost is usually about $50 per session per player for the game, whatever food & drinks on top of that. Playing with a Professional DMs reminded me of flying first class the first time.
Cheers! You definitely summed it up in the end. GMing is a craft unlike any before and the GM's that put the time, effort, and work to improve on their craft deserve to be compensated. 🙌🏽🙌🏽
@19:00 you mention your rates. So how much is that in your pocket and how much goes to SPG? Do you have any other costs (except prep time and books) like Ads?
I really like the "This had Value" section near the end. I agree. Just not sure I am at that level.
The following questions are not for starting but for planning... Looking forward to your response.
Are you hard on the subscriptions? DNDBeyond? Roll20 or another VTT? Discord? Dscryb? A Maps Patreon? Book budget for the year ($50 book every 3 months = $200/year in Books)? High-speed internet? Hardware Upgrade Budget (computer/desk/lights/mic)? Do you do videos for just yourself (voices and acting in your RPGs), or just Audio when you are DM'ing?
Do you ask/require your players to show their faces (Video) for play? Do you go for Theatre of the Mind or do you try to do Maps and tactical combats?
I know you are looking at me like - Why are you trying to give your players the Rolls-Royce when you are getting paid Honda Civic price? Goest back to the "this has value" section of the video.
Hey, these are great questions. I wanted to cover everything but the video would’ve been alot longer. I’d love to make a part 2 down the line , getting into the weeds of it and answering these sorts of questions so keep em coming and thanks for watching
9:11 I feel like the best way to do this would be to have GMs make a short video about their DMing style (like on Fiverr), that way players can get a feeling of what kind of DM the DM is.
@@nioret_ Did you ever make that part 2?
It's 10% going up to 15% in January. SPG also charges a processing fee for each payment a player makes.
Looks like a great service. I've been trying to find some harder to find games and no luck and it seems there are a lot of good option and as far as the price is concerned it seems inline with what my local Meetup group charges for gaming sessions and reasonable given how much time I have wasted on "free" games where no one shows up. I signed on for a Fate game next week
Yeah DnD is the most popular. But hey if you can gather some friends up maybe you can convince a dm to run a diff game for you? I did a horror blades in the dark one shot for my birthday.
But overall yeah I wish more people would run some of the weirder games
A fellow SPG GM! Great to see! Good video, I agree about the review/rating system needing a rework. And the player profiles. Have you thought about posting/streaming your games? Thats what I'm doing and I've actually gotten players from it!
I guess not all players would be confortable with streaming. But then again, I´m sure some would love it.
I’m only 11 minutes in but this is a review about a website. Good luck out there.
Who ever is on your personal gaming group are lucky people. You have an awesome and fun personalty.
We have now seen how paid GM'ing has grown into the mainstream and and how some have started to think that it would be weird or suspicious if someone didn't pay for it. And I think one of the biggest reasons for its popularity has been that more people find it is easy and simple way to get money from TTRPG tapletops in return for the increase in book prices and for the effort and the time you have spent on them. Some have also say that it also keeps out the problem and unwanted players when you set the price your campaigns and individual sessions correctly. Unfortunately, it has also increased the number of feedback when players complain that they don't have enough money or desire to pay for games because they need it elsewhere in their lives or they're just generally pissed off about paywalls and microtransactions or or their parents refuse to pay for the games on their behalf. Or it can also create horror stories, like the one I just read where players had used in the middle of a paid campaign because the GM charged extra to use the bathroom in their house. But maybe at some point a good balance will be found that is suitable for everyone - at least I hope so myself - but until then, I guess this is still a time of searching and self-examination regarding the limits and wallets before paid GM'ing can finally settle down.
The price of books? The price of books is essentially zero per hour when you consider how many hours of enjoyment you get out of them.
It's always confused me how people think players won't pay to be an absolute jerk. Likthde we already see this happening everywhere in life; Anyone, rich or poor, can behave unexpectedly.
"Set price correctly." Can only wall off people based on wealth class, not personality, that's what talking is for. (Though, the ultra wealthy do tend to be distinct in a bad way.)
This was really interesting. I'm old--I've been playing DnD since the late 70s and Dming most of that time. About a year ago it occurred to me--is this something I could make money with in retirement? I'm still a decade or so away from retirement, but definitely at the age where I'm thinking about it. I have also had a bias about paying someone to DM for decades, but I'm starting to see a place for this. I think my bias stems from always playing with friends. RPGs are a great thing to do with friends, and I don't want to charge my friends to hang out and play. However, the point you make toward the end about putting a lot of time and energy into something and the players aren't into it, whereas when they have some $ skin in the game they care more....this is.....very interesting. I can see doing this for people I don't know that come to it interested in what is on offer. I think I'll probably look into this. The only thing I was left wondering was--how long is your average session? Thanks for this!
I love being a DM and have many players complement on their experience
Have never thought about charging for games, but being a DM does cost time & money
The rating issue and the tagging system is a mistake. I'm a story teller as a general rule... normally. BUT with some players I change the way I GM and the game becomes focuses on dungeon delving, or combat and I encourage min/maxing. In other words, I model my games based both the system and the players.
Thanks for sharing! Lots of great information here.
So glad you enjoyed it! Huge fan of the main channel and the monthly magazine
I signed up on SPG the about the same time you did... mostly out of just curiosity. I pitched a one-shot game to them, and got it approved. Then I started having doubts, and never did anything with it.
And in that time, you make $10k.
Maybe I need to give it a go. Thanks for the video!
Hey, that was awesome! Exactly the information and inspiration I was looking for!
Thanks for the awesome video
I'm an old school player. I started with AD&D when I was in my early 20's. In my 40's I played the 3.5 version. I'm now 61, and I've never played the 5e version but I'm interested in looking into it. In the old days players would buy their snacks for the game and they'd rotate on buying snacks for the DM. Buying snacks for the DM was always considered the norm, as a way of thanking him for going through all the work of creating the world for the players to have fun with in. The idea of paying DM's for a game is a new thing for me, but if DMs want to start charging players a reasonable price instead of us buying snacks for it, then I don't mind paying. As to whether or not a DM is worth the price they're asking...a player has always had the right to shop around at tables till they find a DM that suits the way they like to play. The web site you talk about sounds interesting. I'll have a look at it. Thanks.
Thank you for this excellent breakdown and review
I haven't been able to find live games in my area because my work schedule simply doesn't line up with our local groups. SPG has changed that. Now I can find games at pretty much any time of day and day of the week. While it's not the same as playing in person, I've been having a lot of fun.
Thanks for your experience! I inched my prices up from $5, because I hadn't ran for years before I got into SPG. This is the green flag for my next campaign to be $25.
So I'm curious how did you handle session 0? Was that a paid session or just part of session 1?
Honestly for me session 0 is one of the most labor intensive because its followed up by hours of discussions in between that and session 1 , so its a lot of man hours lol
Hey, good afternoon. Well done and I stayed for the entire video. I have been running on SPG for almost two years now and I have finished about 7 campaigns. Before charging I never finished any campaigns, like ever. I do wish I could advertise and I probably need to have better copy on my game descriptions. I wonder about that. I wish you well and good luck to your channel. I have subscribed so you now have one more.
Spoiler the answer is money
Ive played in a few games using SPG. #1 was a special horror 1-shot with all my friends the gm used Blades in the Dark. It was such an awesome experience and super memorable.
My second was a Call of Cthulhu one shot - it was good and i liked the gm but there was a player who I felt was kind of at odds with the party. Im not sure if this was a story choice or just the way the player decided to play it.
I definitely want to keep playing more games there!
Biggest complaints are like you said - not knowing a gms style. Though if you message them they will probably send you a link to a livestream/play session but i wish GMs could provide more details, examples, videos on their page.
The second and this is no fault of SPG but I wish i could find more games/times for other smaller systems.
Im now trying a couple of games on SPG, but honestly Im still conflicted ... if Im willing to pay / weekly what a full time GM who sees it as a job would charge. I guess Im kinda still hoping to find a GM who sees it as a colloborative experience +some compensation for his prep time rather than as a JOB ... I really wanna play with friends not contractors ...but I guess it is what it is.
So I learned a whole lot altogether here, incredible stuff Nioret!
Great ideas - and absolutely agree with the player critique ...the GM ranking system is useless, its impossible to really tell if the GM is any good or match your prefered style OR if the other players and you would mesh well.
"But youtube needs this video to be 8 minutes long" uh huh, seem to have added an extra digit
i never liked the idea of pay to play DMing as you cant just kick players if they are extra crappy to everyone at the table and paying would make them feel entitled to god level dming and treatment. i have never charged anyone and i have never payed to play a game. if i was gonna take money i would set up a voluntary donation system and i would scalp players form spg as im sure they would appreciate not being forced to pay but then donate out of good will.
You absolutely can kick out players. Their money is not worth ruining the experiences of others. I’ve had a few bad dms but even then the players made the (albeit temporary) experience more fun. You’re not forced to play with a dm or party you don’t like and that’s another great thing about these kinda sites.
All that being said you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion and playstyle. 👍
I've been running pay-to-play games for 3 years now and I could point out all the misconceptions in your statement but would encourage you to actually give it a try and see for yourself instead. Have a great week !
Conversely the other players are also paying.
If you feel bad on being a paid GM, don't. A friend of mine told me, when I was having my doubts, that a GM is like a performer. People will pay according to your performance.
Plus, in my case, I was doing it as part-time to get money for minis. More money, more minis/terrain, more fun games. I think for me, if I was doing it as a primary job, I'd get stressed out with something I love to do.
I feel like it's like eating with friends. Whether you meet at each other's house or pay to go to a restaurant or Cafe and pay others for the venue or food is really up to you and your friends.
That's why I, as a DM have returned to IP at a real table . Back to basics. My only thing I ask for is 2-5 bucks for gas in tips( 50 miles travel both ways) If there is a demand for that market( and there is) good for those Dms who do it. I've invested 1000's on my books and accessories. I'm not going to invest 1000's more. As far as applying for being a player, I tell potential player what to expect. No x cards, no politics at the table.(only game politics and intrigue) OSR.
My personal PGM journey started in 2019 on ye olde roll20. I primarily started doing it because online players are just as unreliable as online GMs. I put a lot of work into my games and it was just very disheartening to see players flip flop on you. But as you said, once you put a price tag onto something and add monetary value, the more serious, decidated players show up. Sure you also do sometimes get players that have been rejected by free tables a lot. But most of the time it's not because they are bad players. Maybe they sound funny, or suffer from ADHS or other mental health problems. I have had very few actual problem players throughout this. I think the biggest "problem players" are the ones who arrive at your table with the mindset of: i pay for this game, so i am allowed to come with whatever overpowered/crazy character idea my mind came up with.
Anyhow. I did started on roll20. and back then there was a lot more legwork to do to get players on board. I switched to SPG like 2 years ago actively. Primarly because i switched from roll20 to foundry and from 5E to PF2E as my primary game offering. I also offer different systems to have a pallette cleanser for myself.
Should you become a paid GM? Hell nah! The marked is already overcrowded as is! - KIDDING
Do it if you want to have fun, reliable, dedicated players and you think you can keep a schedule. A lot of players not only pay for a good game, but also a game that they can sit down to EVERY GORRAM WEEK GOD CREATED. - So keep that in mind.
I wasn't ready for "top"
20:30 We are all here to play a fantasy game, escape from reality for awhile and immerse ourselves into other worlds
Modern day politics should be an afterthought all together, if you are left or right (very American way of thinking). Main thing a DM wants is party/player cohesion
the bad thing with the rating is i heard GM giving players for item for good ratings
Yeah, the rating system can be gamed easily and I think a total rework is needed
I've been a dm and player on SPG for a year and a half, I'm coming close to my 1000th session and I'm loving it. I appreciate the ability to rationalize grand prep, making awesome artwork, situations and events to run my players through. I also like seeing other DMs do the same when I'm in their session. Starting out I honestly thought the paid aspect was going to be more of a mood killer than it turned out to be. Occasionally I do struggle with the "I want to shove as much content into a session as possible to get the most out of a session." But I've learned to pace myself. The most reasonable take I've heard from players is that the cost is akin to bringing snacks, travel, or other things to a physical dnd table. I kinda wish I could do what I do for free, but life is expensive, I don't charge nearly as much as what I often see from other DMs and honestly I'm making more than I did at other jobs working 60hrs a week.
i have played a lot of free dnd, a lot of tables ended early, some lasted a few tears. i’m playing a payed table now and the dm is great and consistent
Im tempted to try paid dming as i have more than a half decade experience running games at this point, but the thing is, I love worldbuilding, and prefer to write my own adventures, come up with all original ideas etc. I only ever tried to run a prewritten adventure myself but i decided to swap the setting but ended up just using the book as a vague guide and tool box. It wouldnt be worth the cash for all the effort that im not sure i could sto myself from putting in. Plus im only used to playing with people i know generally, and curating the game for them. Idk maybe my style just doesnt mesh the best for commodifying it as a skill, but then again, maybe i could look at running something not 5e which ive wanted to get away from, though. That could be a reason to go for something more prewritten.
I can put too much pressure on myself for my home game too, idk what it would be like with the responsibility of being paid for it
Great video. When running a session or campaign do you sometimes have 2nd thoughts about things that may kill one of the players? I would think, well they are paying I don't want them to die.
Seems like The GM could have some premade characters available for players whose character died, or let them run an NPC, or create a mechanic that makes them a monster or ghost operating in opposition to the party in small tricky ways which don't throw off the balance of the game too much. Great point you bring up. I don't have much experience yet as a GM, I've run a few games but no one has died yet. I like to make tense encounters with some way out that the story can provide. The bad guys take prisoners, or the seamonster eats you and now you're exploring its insides like an unexpected dungeon. The game needs to be dangerous to make player choices have value, but there are a lot of variables. I watch a lot of videos so I have thoughts, but I'm still waiting for my players to open the wrong portcullis and I'll have to put my plans into action so they have something to do when their character gets roasted. In the past I was kinda steering the game so they wouldn't die, but I want to implement these things I've mentioned above to see how it goes. as Brandish Gilhelm of RUNEHAMMER GAMES always says, "Don't Fudge Dice Rolls! It's the worst most evil thing you can do to fail your players and create a false reality." By this I take it to mean, the dice are the core of the game, and whatever numbers come up, there's always a way to tell a compelling story whether the numbers are high or low.
I imagine you could just talk to the players before-hand about how lethal they want the campaign to be.
As a GM of over 30 years...hey I did this all through covid for cash and or PRIZES...but many of the newbies that are not part of the culture of TTRPG. It's hard when you tell people that you only let 18+ play and younger people come in. It's also hard when people had no idea what is and in not normal. It's to a lot of people watch crittical role and expect it to be like that.
Back in the old days (the game I ran lasted for seven years on a weekly schedule and the game itself is now 45 years old) I was called all sorts of nastiness for having an only 18 and over rule for that group.
DM shortage? well... maybe, I actually looked for a grp to GM for once, and I found one right away, played through a campaign with them and they all loved it. And I did enjoy it, I enjoy being a GM, but getting paid for it? I dont know.... that feels like getting paid for doing other stuff that you usually do willingly with other people for fun, you know what I mean? It doesnt sit well with me ....
Paid GMing doesn't invalidate home gaming. Just think of it like any other service. You don't charge your family or friends when you make them a home cooked meal, you do it out of love or because you like to. But you also have a skill, and sometimes it's something you're willing to leverage into making money, and other people are willing to pay for it. That's why restaurants exist. The existence of restaurants isn't immoral simply because parents who cook for their kids exist. It's there for people who don't have access to someone to provide the service to them for free, or for whatever reason feel like accessing a premium level of service for once.
I run for my friends for free, and I love it. I'm looking into doing paid GMing because I like running for new people, but my experience running for randos for free has been pretty bad and unrewarding, and I quickly drop it. If I could vet people by ensuring they were dedicated enough to pay, and I had the incentive of being paid and satisfying paying clients, I think I would stick with it and feel more fulfilled and productive.
Not everyone who likes to cook needs to go work at a restaurant, you're totally free to continue doing it as a hobby and service to your friends. But not everyone is the same.
At 21:12 (oddly my old home address number and a Rush album) you mention that one consideration to make for people running games is if someone is “pro AI”. I am curious what that means specifically to you. Do you mean “is a player you okay with people having ChatGPT create adventures” or Dali creating art for their games or not? I am 46, have been playing D&D since high school and AI makes me feel even older haha. However, I have used ChatGPT in certain ways. For instance, I may throw in some text about a town I made and ask for it to give me a story about the town as seen through the eyes of a child street urchin. The results are mostly generic and boring, but it does get me thinking from a different perspective. Talking about AI regarding TTRPGs seems like such a broad topic, which is why I was wondering more about what you meant here. BTW I love this video and you seem like you are a very fun DM! Cheers!
How much does SPG charge me?
10% fee on each side (player/gm), so they get 20% total.
@@nioret_ feels like double dipping, but okay
@@LeMayJoseph I'm just the messenger haha. 20% broker fee is about industry standard though
GM takes a percentage of the fee charged (10%; going up to 15% in January). SPG also charges a percentage on each payment made.
hell yeah love the grind
Wow! Heath Ledger walking among us again!
Me: a secret vampire a few minutes into this video:😨
SPG double charged my table and support didn't refund them for 5 days. I paid them myself out of pocket. I had messaged Devin about it and he wasn't helpful. I dropped the platform after they got their refunds and never looked back. I don't need a middleman messing with my players money.
Wow, sorry to hear that, usually I only hear good things but I totally get where you are coming from and the decision you ended with.
The problem is, from my experience, is that the players and the GMs are sub-par. You really need a strong group for it to be fun.
You also want to consider things like health insurance before leave a full time job that provides it. Retirement savings, etc. Definitely seems better as a part time job.
I wonder what is the experience of SPG GM's that run other games rather than just DnD. If they have the same success rate or amount of players willing to join them if they are new GMs with no previous ratings.
Well, I do agree that it is a craft. I have certainly purchased a lot of materials to become a better dungeon master and I have put in a lot of work.
Here in Germany, you get dirty looks, are denied and thrown out if you accept payment for running a game. I only charge one euro per player per hour and almost everyone is rude about that. Getting paid to run a game is a very taboo subject here. I have already been removed from several German forums because I offered a paid game, even though it doesn't violate the terms and conditions, I specifically checked beforehand whether I was even allowed to advertise paid games. I was even threatened that I would be taken to court because I don't own the rights to "Curse of Strahd". If I get paid to run a game of "Curse of Strahd", I'm selling the module (I mean, what??), so they say. And the tax authorities would be sent after me because I was committing tax fraud (again, what??)
The paid GMs that exist in Germany have to keep a low profile or simply run games for a foreign group. TTRPGs seem to be a very, very serious issue for Germans in Germany.
Wow, that's crazy to hear, especially the argument about the "right" to run a paid module. Consider WOTC has officially partnered with Paid DMing sites, it's strange to hear such an insane level of taboo. Hope the situation gets better!
@@nioretsdnd Yes, Germany is crazy when it comes to things like this.
So now the question is, are you going to host a livestream of your GMing? Even if it's just part of a session I am curious as to how you run things.
Am I cynical if my first thought is "Cool, this cite pre-enshitification."
I'd play more if I had people that would commit. I see this as filtering players/GMs, if anyone is willing to pay or get paid then their more likely to show up.
They should maintain that hands off approach because value is entirely subjective
I don't like how they can amend the terms without notice. "We may amend Terms at any time by posting the amended terms on this site. It is your responsibility to review these Terms periodically." They should at least email you before a change of terms takes effect.
edit: they estimate it takes 20 minute to read their terms. They expect users to periodically spend 20 minutes rereading a ToS to see if it changed.
I agree but this is unfortunately par for the course when it comes to corporate TOS
Yeah, if you're going to make your income this way, I'd want a much longer notice period.
I've never paid to play a game before. Is that $25 per session or per hour? I know some sessions can go 3-4 hours or longer. That could get rather spendy. Or do you limit sessions to an hour? I don't think I would like that either as some encounters take longer than that alone.
It's per session, not hour! Different GMs have different session lengths, the usual is 3-4 hours.
Very interesting video!
20:55 Sorry, I didn’t quite understand what you meant by pro AI here.
Did you mean that GMs ban people who are “pro AI”? Why, do players use AI or something…?
Or did you mean the GMs are pro AI?
Sorry I didn’t understand the context of this statement. I have absolutely no idea what AI has to do with TTRPGs and D&D LOL.
I'm a Wargamer GM but I do like role-playing heavy idk I'm confusing lol
Some critique don't keep retakes of lines unless it's like just one. It'll help keep your video feeling like you've run smoothly.
That might assuage my unreasonable guilt about taking people's time and i've no excuse not to renumerate people in my *current* circumstance (at least while that lasts). thanks for the nudge.
Subbed to add to the count. I think you need 1000 for monetization.
Something not mentioned is how does the act of paying the GM change the game. How many players die …shit, definitely meant characters…how many characters die when you are being paid IF they are alive. Coming back into the hobby after 200 or 300 years off and it seems like it’s impossible for characters to die in 5e. So maybe it doesn’t matter, but I’d be interested to know if a character ever died in the entire history of Start Playing 😂 (note: I’ve played 3 high level 5e one shots via Start Playing and it was loads of fun)
Looking at games and reviews, a lot of them have trigger warnings for player death, and I've seen at least one review from a player saying their character died (and they praised the DM for helping them through it gracefully).
For those who have done this: my fear is that if GMing were to be a job for me, it would become... well, a job, that I would lose my passion for it. I am prone to burnout (probably due to undiagnosed ADHD).
Has anyone had this issue? If not, how do you stave it off?
I would say just run and schedule one-shots and short adventures at your convenience, rather than posting up a long-running campaign with a committed schedule. SPG doesn't have a requirement to have x amount of games scheduled at all times. Then you can take breaks whenever you want.
Problem with paid GMing is that I would expect Matthew Mercer level stuff.
You’d be surprised how close some of the top rated GMs can get!
Except most people couldn’t afford Mercer’s per hour rate just based on his probable rate as a veteran professional voice actor, which is far less work and effort than he puts into his games.
@@haysmcgee801 100%, his celebrity status alone would put him in a very expensive rate. I assumed the question was "if mercer was just a regular dude" and I think alot of SPG GMs are very good at worldbuilding and prose
@@nioret_ oh no doubt there are some amazing pro-GMs out there that I feel are offering their services for way undervalue in-general. A per-person per-session pay structure is not what I would call fair, but that’s up to the market to decide. People in general are always going to pay as little as they can get away with. I think as a paid service, Pro-GMing is going to have to go through the same process as the pro-artist service, a lot of people not knowing how to actually value their time and/or the quality of the services they offer. Then getting people to pay it. However I think that a way to start establishing this is by considering what the very top of the craft looks like and putting a comparative and competitive value on it. Hence my comment about what Mercer would make as a voice actor of his caliber. My wife and I are both voice actors and I was also a graphic designer, a freelance writer and a game developer. I think that the skill set necessary for a GM to be of a caliber that they could then be considered a professional is a bit more than an amateur or “free” gm is required to have. I think that if an entry point standard is made then we could, and should see more full time GMs who make more than a living wage. The reason I haven’t become a professional GM is because I don’t know coding and don’t know how to use modern VTTs. When I run games online it’s over discord or zoom. People roll physical dice and I may use something like a shared screen of TaleSpire to handle large combats. I think that expecting a certain quality of GM when you pay for it is fine. But expecting every paid gm to be the very top of their craft with a production quality of a studio behind it when you would likely pay the pro-gm less for a 4 hour session than is would cost take a date to a casual dinner and a movie is a bit, well, silly.
@@nioret_ oh no doubt there are some amazing pro-GMs out there that I feel are offering their services for way undervalue in-general. A per-person per-session pay structure is not what I would call fair, but that’s up to the market to decide. People in general are always going to pay as little as they can get away with. I think as a paid service, Pro-GMing is going to have to go through the same process as the pro-artist service, a lot of people not knowing how to actually value their time and/or the quality of the services they offer. Then getting people to pay it. However I think that a way to start establishing this is by considering what the very top of the craft looks like and putting a comparative and competitive value on it. Hence my comment about what Mercer would make as a voice actor of his caliber. My wife and I are both voice actors and I was also a graphic designer, a freelance writer and a game developer. I think that the skill set necessary for a GM to be of a caliber that they could then be considered a professional is a bit more than an amateur or “free” gm is required to have. I think that if an entry point standard is made then we could, and should see more full time GMs who make more than a living wage. The reason I haven’t become a professional GM is because I don’t know coding and don’t know how to use modern VTTs. When I run games online it’s over discord or zoom. People roll physical dice and I may use something like a shared screen of TaleSpire to handle large combats. I think that expecting a certain quality of GM when you pay for it is fine. But expecting every paid gm to be the very top of their craft with a production quality of a studio behind it when you would likely pay the pro-gm less for a 4 hour session than is would cost take a date to a casual dinner and a movie is a bit, well, silly.
What was missing? Return on investment. It is ALWAYS returh in investment.
Books aside, what would be the investment? Maybe a good mic, but that´s a one-time purchase. It´s mostly his time.
@@Edino_Chattino time is an expensive investment. When you learn to recognize that we may be able to have a convo
Most people asking age are checking over 18
i would like to be a paid DM for many reasons.
But as many reasons i have why i think it would be good, i have like 50x times more reasons why i couldnt do it.
sadge
10 to 25$ per session
If I were to set up a GM vetting system, I would take a short stock 1-shot adventure with an estimated 4 hour run time. Guve them 24 hours to study, and having a hiring team of 4 players play under the DM fir the adventure.
I would probably judge on 4 criteria: How did they make the adventure their own? How did they handle derail attempts? How did they handle combat? How did they handle Descriptions and Roleplay?
Derail attempts would consist of random things like a player needing a bathroom break, someone chewing loudly into their microphone, a player arguing rules, a player refusing the 'call to adventure', etc
well done video, thanks.
Loved the vid liked the part about GMing being a growth market keep it up.
Due to the close angle of the camera, the hands are deeply disturbing. Distracts from the message. Stay back from the camera.
I would probably just do it for extra spending cash and just let then pay like $5 each. I would probably only do it for people who desperately want a DM online and never for my personal play groups. I would be honest and let them test it out.
Need to replace with examples from games. At least an hour longn not just hughlights But players need to sign waivers or opt in, making context hard.
But no good solutions. But have to balance risks/rewards. I have paid $20 for food I didn't like. No bug deal.
Paying $10,000 for a lawyer you can't vet is normal.
Finally, someone who sees r/lfg discriminates against everyone who isn't mentally ill. It's a tragedy
Really informative. ❤
So as a player who pays for games, it's mostly online and it's for the ability to use the vtt, and get books.
Now my current and longest paid dm. Basically runs ic-chats in text which can be whole second sessions during our off playtime.
Mixed in with occasional doing 1v1 super chats, which can Basically be like a 1v1 section with npcs or important events.
If you're asking how big or crazy this can get.
Summary:
We've had player's die in theese chats, it's that intense.
Hands.
Paid DMing is like hiring a personal trainer imo. Sure you could ask your friend to do it and hey they might even be great at it, but if you want consistency and regular sessions paying is the way to go.
Another positive is that bad players kinda filter themselves more. Everyone at the table has a stake in the success of the sesssion because they paid to be there. Compared to my friend sessions theres a LOT less checking out and the players are more present and active.
This guy was raised with a weak father figure. You can tell... how timid and overly apologetic he is... makes for poor watching.
LOL that comment about the only GM on Microsoft Teams. My game is literally on MS Teams. Don't care for Discord. I use Teams, Webcam, Foundry VTT, D&DB.
Great video!
Just because you lampshade that you are saving the good content for later in the video doesnt make me want to watch the video
I know i want to play D&D
And want to experience it organically.
But I didn't grow a privilege so I don't exactly have what I believe I need a PC or technical know how to do it the way I want to.
Scared shirtless when it comes down to trying to find a group and failing to know what I'm doing on the technical side.
An awkwardness.
That fear is easy realize when I hear and see all the stories of other players or DMs.
I just feel like a lot of its luck and privilege to find a good DM in group.
And the two or three groups that I know that I feel like I would have a great experience with I feel like yeah as if I would be lucky enough to get brought into that group I'm sure they have a long list.
Feels really hard to figure out how to get started when you don't really got money.
Your PC is like 11 years old.
And you try to limit how you interact with that thing I don't feel breaking it cuz you won't have the money to replace it.
Wish I had good exposure to it in my earlier years.
So far the best I do is live by carelessly by watching streamers.
And as you say I kind of live in fear of having my first experience ruined.
Because I have so many ideas of things I want to do. Or try.
But I just can't imagine someone having the patience for a newbie like me.
Oh know how to help me learn.
I'm one of those people that really struggled to learn something if it's not hands on and in person.
But if it showed to me in hand in person one or two times then I tend to Long really quickly.
Obviously that means I have my pros and cons but sometimes I wish I could lower those pros.
Because I feel the future diem in favors being able to loan offhand.
SPG and Roll20 are running a new players event this upcoming week. Try looking into it, and remember that it's just a game. Liveplays will give you a lot of expectations sometimes, but keep in mind those people are putting in a lot of effort to make a good show for you. At the table it's much more casual, and you can easily find something low-commitment and low-pressure to start off, and work up to bigger games. Find a way to start playing and build up experience.
I can't say your first experience will for sure be good, but it's very dependent on the people you play with. If you have a bad experience, drop that group and try again. If you have technical problems, look for a play-by-post or a local in-person one-time event. Don't pressure yourself.
The game wouldn't exist if new players didn't learn, there's always someone out there willing to teach. I just spent four hours teaching someone over Zoom, and that was way more than they needed.
Finding out if a GM is good is hard because it can just be a personal thing.
For example, I really liked the content of the video and wanted to hear it all, but at the same time couldn't stand the way he talked.
I would be so mad if I had paid for a few hours of gaming with him.
You could leave early and ask for a refund.
Great video, i have considered doing paid DM a lot, i feel like i do a good job meeting my players expectations and satisfaction but there are times i feel pretty tired to do my usual free games.
But i have more questions, maybe you could do a follow up video with "Do i have what it takes to charge for dnd ?"
What about the limitations ? Do i use roll20 or foundry or something else entirely ? Can i use premade modules ? Any module ? Can i run homebrew ? Do i need to have the digital book ? Are music limited to paid libraries or can i just use abot like Maki to play spotify playlists on Discord ? Is it fine to just keep using images from google search as assets for npcs, maps and tokens ?
The adult games without a solid age verification system are a risk I certainly wouldn’t be looking to take were this my business. More power to the people looking to do that sort of thing between consenting adults, but it’s only a matter of time before you see someone for whom that caveat wouldn’t apply to winding up in a game like that if it hasn’t happened already.
Newish system means there’s going to be some wrinkles to iron out, but it’s not hard to see ahead of time that that’s a potential problem area.
This is insufferable.
Great video. Nice to see the POV of a paid GM (I m a paid player). One critique though: I find your constant hand mouvements distracting, and slightly annoying. I little bit is fine, but I humbly think you should tune it down, it would improve the quality of the video. Cheers.
This sounds like an info commercial. Not interested. I would never charge as a DM / GM, nor pay as a player.
Did he say 25$ per player per hour? That’s insane. 4 hour session, 100$ per player, that’s enough to feed a family for more than a day.
I believe it´s 25 per player per session, isn't it? I might be wrong, tough.
It's per session