i would say, the only "problem" (it's not even a problem tbh. like you said, estus) you could have with nihil is the fact that there's no indicator that you have to kill eleonora to get the crystal tear.
Pretty much that, Nihil is fine since not only can you use the crystal tear, or just heal through it. But you can also simply kill him before he gets to do it if you pace yourself right.
@@sevirakalau2171 you do need good damage to kill him in P1 tbf. If you're doing a playthrough that doesn't utilize buff stacking or a more OP weapon like Dragon Halberd, Golden Halberd, Iron Balls, Serpent Hunter, etc. It CAN be a bit harder to do a one phase kill. Yeah though, this is kind of my overall stance and sentiment on the fight
@@luc1 Yea I was able to kill him using lightning infused claws before his next phase. Timed the shackles and had the uhm rings that make you do more damage on consecutive kills. He got to "NIHI-" and died. However I only recommend it for people who REALLY can't kill him. His second phase is pretty epic and a nice GAMING moment
@@luc1 Id's say another "problem" in question is the fact that it just feels unfair. As a player it feels like they've just got punished with reduced number of estus, or death in the case that the player was already struggling and had ran out of estus already at that point (or hell, it could just be their first time fighting and didn't know about it getting a surprise damage killing them while they were low health), just for existing. One can talk about how it's fine because it builds tension or whatever but at the end of the day, what matters for a game (or any media for that matter) is the experience the player / audience has, and that kind of out-of-nowhere unavoidable damage can sour the experience.
@@NotASuspicousPerson Well to your first point. That's always been a souls experience. Enemies jumping from around corners, or even the boulder in asylum in DS1. It teaches you these things so you learn you have to take it into account. I'm okay with this mechanic, because as i stated in the video another game has a long and hard fight that the enemy essentially debuffs you over the buff until the last 25% of his massive healthbar you're essentially one shot the entire duration. I don't really see Mohg as being any different personally. Fair opinion though!
Luc1 … thank you. I’ve watch your 1st randomized Elden video like 15 times. Thank you for making enjoyable videos. Have a good new year and can’t wait for what is to come in 2023. Thanks Luc1
to be fair to the guy in chat who brought up Waterfowl, every hit will heal Malenia regardless of if you block iirc, and in second phase it does build up Scarlet Rot
The reason unavoidable damage is bad (especially in the case Nihil where you can easily die if you don’t waste three flasks) is that the player is being punished despite doing nothing wrong. They didn’t mess up, they didn’t get too greedy, they are essentially being punished for merely playing the game and that’s ridiculous. Not helping is the fact that Mohg then heals practically to full health depending on how much damage you managed to deal before hand and now his damage resistance is through the roof. Just an obnoxious fucking boss who’s only special feature is an unavoidable blood move with cool visuals.
I will make an argument about the health regeneration. Does that really matter though? It’s no different than a phase 2 that has a fresh hp bar. Such as Rykard. I’m okay with unavoidable damage in certain circumstances because while punishing the player in that regard, it also rewards the player who was able to conserve resources in the first half. Guess it depends on which way you view it. I see both sides equally, just so happen to fall in the minority I guess
@@luc1 I don’t think the health Regen on its own is bad, just what it’s stacked with. If the phase transition was just him healing back to full health with an added move set and some damage negation, then it’s fine. It’s the fact that you’re sapping so much from the player whilst giving so much to the boss that bothers me. Especially when in all technicalities, the player played the game correctly, they’re being heavily punished for a victory
@@totallyofftask that’s fair! I again, can see that point as well. I just don’t necessarily dislike it. One of those odd things I for some reason enjoy?
I would say the issue with Nihil is, after the many games and bosses Fromsoft has made within the Souls platform. The mechanic to dodge and learning boss moves and evasion mechanics becomes irrelevant. You could learn a boss's attack patterns but the moment they toss in an ability that even if you time to the damage frame and dodge it still hits you, that's when a boss having an unavoidable attack really frustrates someone. Not to mention the attack causes bleed which when procs removes a large amount of health. Even if you have the highest amount of bleed resistance possible, you'll still get bleed.
i never really thought of Nihil as a "You held on to your Estus? Good, you're gonna need it" kinda thing, that puts it in a bit of a different perspective for me
Yeah! Not saying it’s justified for everyone, but to me I like the principle of a fight that’s so punishing the reward for playing well is something like that.
45:30 here’s my reason: because it’s not due to the player’s own negligence of mechanics beyond the gimmick of the tear; thematically I think taking damage is actually kinda cool and interactive, but even though you said you reward yourself by playing well early by holding on to estus, I find my favorite parts of the game is the feeling of unlimited capabilities to not fail or be hurt. A little rant: For my first playthrough, I found that most weapons I wanted to use and kept picking up were op and enemies simply didn’t have the HP pool to handle this, so I intentionally used shtty daggers so I could actually enjoy the mechanics and movesets the devs had designed for each enemy. Sometimes I decided to remove estus from my hotbar when I really wasn’t getting an enemy, because it forced me to actually learn them, and not just brute force my way, because the fact is you can dodge every hit, and that’s a ceiling I felt a need to touch. Though an esoteric item that happens to apply to a boss gimmick is a neat idea, I find the fact that in the arena, in the actual fight and no matter my raw capability, it is simply unavoidable limits this romanticization I have, enters a new room with new ceilings and leaves me a bit disappointed to no fault of my own beyond the expectations I accepted as the game itself set.
I found myself constantly disappointed by the game given the standards-related and unrelated-it set early on along with its predecessors, and perhaps that is my own fault and my own problem, but given that, it’s simply the way I see it.
In my 2nd run I played an int/str kind of setup where I had to rush to sol to get Helphens Steeple as my main weapon. On the way I used the Ghostflame Poker, and yes. it is indeed a very good weapon
Everybody loves clutching bosses. Unavoidable Damage prohibits that. This feeling of "oof I fucked up in Phase 1, but if I absolutely focus, I can still win" By slapping unavoidable damage somewhere into a fight, you always limit this ability for people to clutch. But that's just a different dimension to al the points already made in other comments. I also feel like, if your perspective is "it incentivizes saving estus/crimson" then that is a bit stained by the level of play you are capable off. Of course for someone whos used to not taking damage on a boss ever it's "whatever, I have 10+ crimson, who gives a shit" but for anyone less than that, those 3 crimson might be the last. And in the end, is the potential to be damaged always incentive to save ressources? Like people gonna have to chug, when they have to chug, when the next hit will kill, or they are likely unable to heal otherwise. It's a bit of a sentiment tuned towards the more gifted is what I am trying to say.
As someone from the UK, we don't call a grilled cheese a toaste, we call a grilled cheese a grilled cheese, a toastie is something you make in a toastie maker and it basically as the name suggests toasts bread on the outside while heating up the cheese to melt in the middle, there are many different fillings you can put in a toastie. A truly versatile dish
@Luc1 ah but it depends on how the toaste is made. From what I've seen from various shorts a typical grilled cheese in the states is put on a frying pan to cook, where as a toastie does have a dedicated machine for it and usually doesn't have butter or mayo on the outside of the slice! You can also buy something called a 'toastie bag' where you do the toastie as normal and slot it in the bag and then put in a toaster. If I have to put it in a frying pan with butter/mayo then to me it becomes a grilled cheese. But yes basically it is the same thing, just one has an outside coating and one doesn't!
My problem isn't so much that nihil exists, it's the counter! Because you see, it's not unavoidable, far from it, as you can use the purifying crystal tear. You know? The item you get basically at the end of Djura's questline. You know, the questline that had no indicator whatsoever that it would lead to you getting a counter to nihil? But, as far as I know, you don't have to do the questline, you can just go and have Eleonora invade you. One way or the other, as far as I remember there's also no indicator in Yura's Dialogue that you had to go to that one random church in Altus. You get the counter to the Lord of Blood from what is basically, with all the clues you get as to her position, a random invader in Altus, miles and miles away from where you actually fight Mohg! I mean, from afar, that church doesn't even look like it has any significance to the whole Lord of Blood thing! Unlike Roses Church, that is covered in blood, this looks like you'd find another dragon guy there or something! Like, seriously, name one thing that indicates that you get the tear from Eleonora, or that she's in that church, or that this church has any greater significance than all the other random churches across the land, or that Yura would go there, do you get my point yet? The problem isn't that you have to be skillful to avoid the damage, the problem is that there is an actual, intended way to avoid the damage without giving up resources but that you can only stumble upon through what seems to me is sheer luck!
That's understandable! I almost like the incentivized "don't use healing, because you'll need it here" aspect. You know? I understand what you're saying, but it's not something that I think is a horrible idea from From to try and not something that I think is a BAD idea per se. I will say though, early on in the game. You do learn those churches usually have sacred tears or other important items. So if you see one, maybe you should check it out. I get your complaints though, it's fair criticism
@@luc1 I like the idea of Ressource management too, that's not bad per se. Also, it's true that churches often host important items, I'll give you that. But if you just go around, this church in particular isn't what I'd call "on the road". Like... It's pretty easy to miss if you aren't doing exploring just for the fun of it. Nope, wait, I just checked. You can't even get invaded randomly, scratch that! You have to have done the previous two steps in Yura's questline it seems, otherwise she doesn't spawn. You have to have gotten invaded in front of Murkwater Cave and have joined Yura in Rays Lucaria. So... Let's just imagine this, yeah? Maybe you went to the church before doing Yura's questline. What incentive does the game give you to go there again for this quest? Oh, right...none at all. I mean, finding Yura? You're encouraged to explore a lot in Limgrave, you'll find him. In Raya Lucaria? Most people will thoroughly explore Limgrave first, so when you get there, his summon sign isn't that hard to see... But god forbid if you do, because then, as soon as you go to Altus to that church, or if you're a bit to exploration heavy and go to Altus first, good fucking luck. It doesn't even make sense for Yura to be in Raya Lucaria tho, as I don't even know where he got the key that you need. And don't forget, the fucker dies on you as soon as you reach the Mountaintops, so have fun with that. Like... How many things can go wrong with one quest? Okay, I'm rambling at this point, but let me say, even Millicent being in Dominula was acceptable compared to this fucktard of a questline. I really imagine some people having this Dialogue: "Man, I hate this Nihil attack, is there no counter to it? There is? Where? Somewhere in this palace or the swamp around it? No? Oh, wait, there's sewer Mohg and you find the shackle in the sewer, so it's probably there! No? Errrr.... Ah, yes! Varre! That dude can get you here early, right? So the counter could be close to him, maybe near Roses Church! Also not? Okay, let's see... The teleporter I took was in the Consecrated snowfield, so... No? Come on, we're beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel here! Alright, final guess, there's a secret wall in the subterranean shunning grounds that leads to that one underground area, so it must be there! Not there either?! Okay, where? At the end of a questline? In fucking Altus? And it starts in Limgrave? What in the fuck?" I dunno, just found the thought of going through all this shit that would make more sense for the position of the tear funny...
@@Raidon484 I agree and in hindsight, I never even considered how much sense it would have made that sewer mohg gave you the nihil crystal lol. That's actually an idea I can really get behind
@@luc1 Or at least anything that remotely close to what you'd associate with Mohg... Lore wise I also don't get why Eleonora even has that thing... You're right, it would make sense for sewer Mohg to have it, since Mohg is projecting himself into the sewer, but maybe he needs to keep the guy he transformed into himself protected from his curse! Shit, that's a good idea... Gotta e-mail FromSoft
The reason why alot of people including me consider unavoidable damage a bad mechanic is because it's not fair, think about the best bosses of the past games none of them had an unavoidable attack, the premise was if you're good enough you can avoid getting hit completely, not saying I did any hitless runs myself but it means when a certain move hits me it's my fault alone, not in elden ring tho, godskin noble's belly flop, placidusax's stun locking fire breath, Radagon's stun locking teleportion, Malenia's waterfowl are all examples of artificially difficult poorly designed moves However mohg is different, for one I don't mind nihil because it's there to create a unique experience and not just to make the fight harder, it incentive you to perfect the first phase which will help you position yourself properly in phase 2 with all the flames, it's consistent every time he only use it once and it's not a run killer like waterfowl, and above all else it's fucking awesome, mohg is how to do an unavoidable move in a good a creative way the other bosses I mentioned not so much
Regarding Mohg - I don't think Nihil is his biggest problem, but the fact that his second phase turns half the arena into a lake of bleed damage. It feels very similar to the twin Gargoyle's poison AoE, just that it's more visible and more random because of his constant jumping/flying attacks. So I don't know why you criticize the Gargoyles for that attack but Mohg's much more unpredictable splashing of blood in all directions is somehow fine. His moveset and overall design are great though. Still, Morgott is my favorite by far. Insane variety of attacks but intuitive once you're used to it, smooth dynamic movements and amazing music. Just too little health overall. And unavoidable damage...just has no benefit. Damage is used to signal that you're doing something wrong in this kind of game, as a virtual counterpart to pain in the real world. Unavoidable damage goes against that. You argued that it makes one preserve Estus, but that's already covered by every other attack in every fight ever. If you want people to be more Estus efficient make the fight more difficult in actually interesting ways. For example like Sister Friede or Nameless King in DS3 where you have to really learn the first phase to have enough healing for the difficult part.
Few points; gargoyles is different because it’s a duo fight. If you get poisoned you’re poisoned essentially for the whole fight. Mohg, blood loss is just a one time proc. That’s fair though! I personally don’t have issues with it, I don’t think unavoidable damage is always bad was my main point.
The problem with unavoidable damage is that taking damage is a punishment for bad play so why should you be punished for something you can’t avoid? I mean if you are a masochist then sure it’s fine but personally I don’t like being punished for no reason.
Gosh I'm so jealous. My randomizer stopped working and now I watch these videos for comfort. Nice to finally see someone finish the game. Also I'm struggling with the files and setup
i think in the context of a duo fight the gargoyle poison stuff is bad, but on it’s own it isn’t a problem, their health is scaled well enough to where you’re already progressed to a point where running away for a little bit wouldn’t be much of a time waste
Well, yes and no. While I agree 1v1 they’re fine. In a duo fight where you’re under leveled the poison just tends to take away player agency and forces you to wait and walk around instead of being able to initiate attacks and combat
@@luc1 yeah, that’s why i specified in relation to a duo fight, if it was a solo fight i’d be fine with it but in relation to it being a duo fight, there’s no reaction or dodging. just running, it’s not very stimulating
TBH my biggest problem with Mohg is that he does both unavoidable damage and healing at once, not one or the other. Then again he heals a lot less in the base game, I totally forgot... fighting him in Reforged he gets back to full and some of his moves set even more of the arena on fire. Eh. Though, someone that has no problem with unavoidable damage really should not have an issue with the Godskin fatty having a basically guaranteed damage hit either, no? Just Estus after getting hit.
Well the healing is just an artificial way to give him a new HP bar in phase 2. Like; Malenia, Rykard, Renalla, etc. which is why I don’t have an issue with it personally
have you ever considered a "region locked" randomizer? you start out with limgrave and you gotta kill every boss before moving to caelid, altus, ect. could be pretty interesting.
Yes, but I’m not sure how logic would work. Like, I may not be able to kill Renalla in Liurnia if the glintstone key is in Caelid. You know? I am, however, working on a Randomizer project that will hopefully be interesting. The first video should be out Friday :)
Imo another bullshit part of the blind woman's fight is her healing, especially when she regains health although you used a shield that guards 100% physical damage. If you had something similar to her like the rally system, I still think it would be more fair.
There’s one issue with the garuntee damage that i dislike and it’s the satisfaction of seeing yourself with full hp and full estus knowing that you just did a hitless boss of a difficult boss that alot of people have to cheese to beat, that’s why i like melania alot because her waterfowl dance is a difficult attack to avoid but it’s not impossible and i enjoy the challenge, now you can get equipment to make mohg easier and such but i like being at a disadvantage, day 1 I fought margit as a wretch level 1 till i killed him
that's valid. and that's a fine way of viewing it. I just like the idea of a boss that forces you to conserve everything. Like, I would enjoy a boss that by the end of the fight he had shrunk your HP bar and made you 1 HP at the end and you had to do the end of the fight like that, you know? I don't hate the mohg mechanic, but I can see why some might.
re: unavoidable damage I feel like part of the point of action games in general should be that a player can become so skilled that they can play through the entire game without getting hit or dying. Personally I feel like Mohg isn't as egregious as the beginning of Elden Ring (where you have to either die to the Grafted Scion or fall of the face of the planet) and Demon's Souls (where you either die in the tutorial or in a cutscene) or the first Seath fight in DS1 (which you either have to die or exploit the janky platforming to skip the "fight"), since not only is he strictly speaking optional but also the move in question can be avoided by killing him fast enough. Regardless, I still prefer the Koji Igarashi school of thought that went into designing Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night bosses where you have to be able to beat your creation in no hits with only a wimpy dagger for it to make it in the game. You can just skill your way through that game if you put enough time into it. And while putting together a strategy to kill Mohg before he can unleash his "nihil" attack could be considered a skill in and of itself, you can't dodge the move regardless of how good you get. Note: This criticism is only really relevant to action games, and not even all action games. That is to say, not only are dice-roll RPGs and strategy games not covered but neither are shooter games with hitscan weapons. The difference is in the expectations tied to the genre. Completely avoiding damage isn't really the _point_ in Final Fantasy or Gears of War or whatever. (edited for additional paragraph breaks lol)
I just kinda view it as. Why does everything need to no hittable? Or rather let me ask this. If nihil instead made your HP bar shrink to 1 HP. Similar to the jailers in DS3, would that be an issue? Even if you’re not getting hit, it’s just shrinking the HP bar. The player is still able to utilize that skill of not getting hit, it’s just in a different format and actually forced upon you. Just kinda how I view it, you know?
sure. but i don't see why that matters, yunno? stuff shouldn't be taken into consideration with speedruns, no hit runs, or challenge runs in mind. Just what is best or most enjoyable for the game.
Not knowing that americans call a toastie 'grilled cheese' but constantly hearing it in media just made me think you lot slap a block of cheese in the pan and call it a day. Or even worse, one of your fake cheese slices.
My bigger issue with her is the healing considering she has the most health in the game, two full bar phases, waterfowl dance, lots of hyper armor, and then gets scarlet rot on top of that. It just feels like too much for one boss.
I have no problem with unavoidable damage but my only problem with nihil is that heals him if it didn’t heal him I would be fine with it but I take unavoidable damage and he gets healed that’s just not fair
Well the way I see it. It's not different from a boss that gets a fresh healthbar in P2. Like Rykard. It's just a unique way of doing it. Would you still have an issue if it was a cutscene and afterwards he had a full healthbar? Know what I mean? Appreciate the input though
well, they are. If you have low damage you're forced to run around and wait for an opening for a long time. They are one of the few bosses in all of From's games where you can't control the flow of the fight at all.
Toasties/toasted sandwiches makes so much sense and encompasses any filling. Grilled cheese isn't even grilled and doesn't make sense. You wouldn't call a cheese sandwich a cold/"raw" cheese lol
Nice video but I feel like the topic talks that wasn't randomizer related was a bit too long, this would more appropriate if it was stream only or a critique but this is an edited randomizer video, just my opinion.
Hey fair enough! Appreciate the video. I only keep things in there like that because I like making videos for myself. And part of that is just talking about what I enjoy or don't enjoy and listening to people talk about. I really appreciate the feedback though and will take it into account next time :)
Nah, just loot up beforehand and make sure to stay in front of him. The only real problem attack is the flame one, in which case just hope to melt him or level vigor by doing the rest of the world first. You got this.
@@Daisieheart the fire has some jank hit box. You can still through his roll though, and thankfully because of scaling of you level up vigor and save him for later you’ll have plenty to survive it and do decent damage later when you’re better upgraded
@luc1 yeah I'll try again a little bit later on but at low lvl def impossible. I'll try to but i lag sometimes so might be rng if i succeed : / thx for the tip
HE’S BACK
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i would say, the only "problem" (it's not even a problem tbh. like you said, estus) you could have with nihil is the fact that there's no indicator that you have to kill eleonora to get the crystal tear.
Pretty much that, Nihil is fine since not only can you use the crystal tear, or just heal through it. But you can also simply kill him before he gets to do it if you pace yourself right.
@@sevirakalau2171 you do need good damage to kill him in P1 tbf. If you're doing a playthrough that doesn't utilize buff stacking or a more OP weapon like Dragon Halberd, Golden Halberd, Iron Balls, Serpent Hunter, etc. It CAN be a bit harder to do a one phase kill. Yeah though, this is kind of my overall stance and sentiment on the fight
@@luc1 Yea I was able to kill him using lightning infused claws before his next phase. Timed the shackles and had the uhm rings that make you do more damage on consecutive kills. He got to "NIHI-" and died.
However I only recommend it for people who REALLY can't kill him. His second phase is pretty epic and a nice GAMING moment
@@luc1 Id's say another "problem" in question is the fact that it just feels unfair.
As a player it feels like they've just got punished with reduced number of estus, or death in the case that the player was already struggling and had ran out of estus already at that point (or hell, it could just be their first time fighting and didn't know about it getting a surprise damage killing them while they were low health), just for existing.
One can talk about how it's fine because it builds tension or whatever but at the end of the day, what matters for a game (or any media for that matter) is the experience the player / audience has, and that kind of out-of-nowhere unavoidable damage can sour the experience.
@@NotASuspicousPerson Well to your first point. That's always been a souls experience. Enemies jumping from around corners, or even the boulder in asylum in DS1. It teaches you these things so you learn you have to take it into account.
I'm okay with this mechanic, because as i stated in the video another game has a long and hard fight that the enemy essentially debuffs you over the buff until the last 25% of his massive healthbar you're essentially one shot the entire duration. I don't really see Mohg as being any different personally. Fair opinion though!
That staredown with Mohg at 53:50 was so funny and epic LMAO
When you walked into Loretta's boss arena and the fire giant was standing there... oh man I laughed hard.
Luc1 … thank you. I’ve watch your 1st randomized Elden video like 15 times. Thank you for making enjoyable videos. Have a good new year and can’t wait for what is to come in 2023. Thanks Luc1
I hope to start making plenty more way more often. Big project in the works. Appreciate the kind words and a good New Years to you!
to be fair to the guy in chat who brought up Waterfowl, every hit will heal Malenia regardless of if you block iirc, and in second phase it does build up Scarlet Rot
That staring contest with Mohg was something!
53:51 Mohg needed a breather
These videos are so entertaining to watch, love your humor as well :)
Glad you enjoyed :)
Getting the purifying crystal tear when talking about Nihil's unavoidable damage is perfect. Love that boss, but not as much as you 😳😘😳
5:58 Accurate representation of Caelid lmao
I never thought I would enjoy a TH-camr as much as you your underrated
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that! ❤️
@@luc1 hey I had and idea for Elden ring livestream could you use only mimic
Or like summon only until you get mimic
That duo valiant gargoyle fight on that small ledge is some DS2 shit
The reason unavoidable damage is bad (especially in the case Nihil where you can easily die if you don’t waste three flasks) is that the player is being punished despite doing nothing wrong. They didn’t mess up, they didn’t get too greedy, they are essentially being punished for merely playing the game and that’s ridiculous. Not helping is the fact that Mohg then heals practically to full health depending on how much damage you managed to deal before hand and now his damage resistance is through the roof. Just an obnoxious fucking boss who’s only special feature is an unavoidable blood move with cool visuals.
I will make an argument about the health regeneration. Does that really matter though? It’s no different than a phase 2 that has a fresh hp bar. Such as Rykard.
I’m okay with unavoidable damage in certain circumstances because while punishing the player in that regard, it also rewards the player who was able to conserve resources in the first half. Guess it depends on which way you view it. I see both sides equally, just so happen to fall in the minority I guess
@@luc1 I don’t think the health Regen on its own is bad, just what it’s stacked with. If the phase transition was just him healing back to full health with an added move set and some damage negation, then it’s fine. It’s the fact that you’re sapping so much from the player whilst giving so much to the boss that bothers me. Especially when in all technicalities, the player played the game correctly, they’re being heavily punished for a victory
@@totallyofftask that’s fair! I again, can see that point as well. I just don’t necessarily dislike it. One of those odd things I for some reason enjoy?
"Alright, I have a game plan"
Hopefully that plan is to have more than 9 vigor
"Mother trusted me with the academyyyyyy"
-Rykard
45:07 that item placement was so well timed for the conversation
Fun fact: I don’t mind Water Fowl anymore. The shadow clones though….
was just bored looking up videos to watch and came across you, gave me a good belly laugh when you quit out after rolling off the lift lmao
I’ve been binging all ur vids and they are so damn enjoyable . Keep up the good work man
I would say the issue with Nihil is, after the many games and bosses Fromsoft has made within the Souls platform. The mechanic to dodge and learning boss moves and evasion mechanics becomes irrelevant. You could learn a boss's attack patterns but the moment they toss in an ability that even if you time to the damage frame and dodge it still hits you, that's when a boss having an unavoidable attack really frustrates someone. Not to mention the attack causes bleed which when procs removes a large amount of health. Even if you have the highest amount of bleed resistance possible, you'll still get bleed.
That’s a fair look at it. I just personally don’t disagree with the move, you know? Just something I like for some reason
i never really thought of Nihil as a "You held on to your Estus? Good, you're gonna need it" kinda thing, that puts it in a bit of a different perspective for me
Yeah! Not saying it’s justified for everyone, but to me I like the principle of a fight that’s so punishing the reward for playing well is something like that.
Quite Literally just finished your other randomizer video and then you come out with this the timing broo💀💀
Same💀
45:30 here’s my reason: because it’s not due to the player’s own negligence of mechanics beyond the gimmick of the tear; thematically I think taking damage is actually kinda cool and interactive, but even though you said you reward yourself by playing well early by holding on to estus, I find my favorite parts of the game is the feeling of unlimited capabilities to not fail or be hurt. A little rant: For my first playthrough, I found that most weapons I wanted to use and kept picking up were op and enemies simply didn’t have the HP pool to handle this, so I intentionally used shtty daggers so I could actually enjoy the mechanics and movesets the devs had designed for each enemy. Sometimes I decided to remove estus from my hotbar when I really wasn’t getting an enemy, because it forced me to actually learn them, and not just brute force my way, because the fact is you can dodge every hit, and that’s a ceiling I felt a need to touch. Though an esoteric item that happens to apply to a boss gimmick is a neat idea, I find the fact that in the arena, in the actual fight and no matter my raw capability, it is simply unavoidable limits this romanticization I have, enters a new room with new ceilings and leaves me a bit disappointed to no fault of my own beyond the expectations I accepted as the game itself set.
I found myself constantly disappointed by the game given the standards-related and unrelated-it set early on along with its predecessors, and perhaps that is my own fault and my own problem, but given that, it’s simply the way I see it.
Tl;dr I don’t enjoy being punished for something I didn’t fail at, even if it has no greater consequence.
I guess the only problem is. I don’t see it as a punishment personally, you know?
The last video was hilarious no doubt this one will be too
Hopefully it lives up to it 🤨
The video is great, the only thing i disliked each time was the merchant killing. You can get the bell bearings without killing them, poor guys...
In my 2nd run I played an int/str kind of setup where I had to rush to sol to get Helphens Steeple as my main weapon.
On the way I used the Ghostflame Poker, and yes. it is indeed a very good weapon
Mohg: aight. Tea time. Have a sip of estus.
I been waiting for another video to drop! LET'S GET IT
Everybody loves clutching bosses.
Unavoidable Damage prohibits that.
This feeling of "oof I fucked up in Phase 1, but if I absolutely focus, I can still win"
By slapping unavoidable damage somewhere into a fight, you always limit this ability for people to clutch.
But that's just a different dimension to al the points already made in other comments.
I also feel like, if your perspective is "it incentivizes saving estus/crimson" then that is a bit stained by the level of play you are capable off.
Of course for someone whos used to not taking damage on a boss ever it's "whatever, I have 10+ crimson, who gives a shit" but for anyone less than that, those 3 crimson might be the last.
And in the end, is the potential to be damaged always incentive to save ressources? Like people gonna have to chug, when they have to chug, when the next hit will kill, or they are likely unable to heal otherwise.
It's a bit of a sentiment tuned towards the more gifted is what I am trying to say.
As someone from the UK, we don't call a grilled cheese a toaste, we call a grilled cheese a grilled cheese, a toastie is something you make in a toastie maker and it basically as the name suggests toasts bread on the outside while heating up the cheese to melt in the middle, there are many different fillings you can put in a toastie. A truly versatile dish
Wait. Isn’t that just what a grilled cheese is though? Toasted bread with melted cheese. The plot thickens
@Luc1 ah but it depends on how the toaste is made. From what I've seen from various shorts a typical grilled cheese in the states is put on a frying pan to cook, where as a toastie does have a dedicated machine for it and usually doesn't have butter or mayo on the outside of the slice! You can also buy something called a 'toastie bag' where you do the toastie as normal and slot it in the bag and then put in a toaster. If I have to put it in a frying pan with butter/mayo then to me it becomes a grilled cheese. But yes basically it is the same thing, just one has an outside coating and one doesn't!
As a brit, I've never heard anyone but americans call a toastie a grilled cheese. I'm from south UK btw, dont know if it different more north
Good stuff with the elden ring vids man
My problem isn't so much that nihil exists, it's the counter! Because you see, it's not unavoidable, far from it, as you can use the purifying crystal tear. You know? The item you get basically at the end of Djura's questline. You know, the questline that had no indicator whatsoever that it would lead to you getting a counter to nihil? But, as far as I know, you don't have to do the questline, you can just go and have Eleonora invade you. One way or the other, as far as I remember there's also no indicator in Yura's Dialogue that you had to go to that one random church in Altus. You get the counter to the Lord of Blood from what is basically, with all the clues you get as to her position, a random invader in Altus, miles and miles away from where you actually fight Mohg! I mean, from afar, that church doesn't even look like it has any significance to the whole Lord of Blood thing! Unlike Roses Church, that is covered in blood, this looks like you'd find another dragon guy there or something! Like, seriously, name one thing that indicates that you get the tear from Eleonora, or that she's in that church, or that this church has any greater significance than all the other random churches across the land, or that Yura would go there, do you get my point yet? The problem isn't that you have to be skillful to avoid the damage, the problem is that there is an actual, intended way to avoid the damage without giving up resources but that you can only stumble upon through what seems to me is sheer luck!
That's understandable! I almost like the incentivized "don't use healing, because you'll need it here" aspect. You know? I understand what you're saying, but it's not something that I think is a horrible idea from From to try and not something that I think is a BAD idea per se. I will say though, early on in the game. You do learn those churches usually have sacred tears or other important items. So if you see one, maybe you should check it out. I get your complaints though, it's fair criticism
@@luc1 I like the idea of Ressource management too, that's not bad per se. Also, it's true that churches often host important items, I'll give you that. But if you just go around, this church in particular isn't what I'd call "on the road". Like... It's pretty easy to miss if you aren't doing exploring just for the fun of it.
Nope, wait, I just checked. You can't even get invaded randomly, scratch that! You have to have done the previous two steps in Yura's questline it seems, otherwise she doesn't spawn. You have to have gotten invaded in front of Murkwater Cave and have joined Yura in Rays Lucaria. So... Let's just imagine this, yeah? Maybe you went to the church before doing Yura's questline. What incentive does the game give you to go there again for this quest? Oh, right...none at all. I mean, finding Yura? You're encouraged to explore a lot in Limgrave, you'll find him. In Raya Lucaria? Most people will thoroughly explore Limgrave first, so when you get there, his summon sign isn't that hard to see... But god forbid if you do, because then, as soon as you go to Altus to that church, or if you're a bit to exploration heavy and go to Altus first, good fucking luck. It doesn't even make sense for Yura to be in Raya Lucaria tho, as I don't even know where he got the key that you need. And don't forget, the fucker dies on you as soon as you reach the Mountaintops, so have fun with that. Like... How many things can go wrong with one quest? Okay, I'm rambling at this point, but let me say, even Millicent being in Dominula was acceptable compared to this fucktard of a questline.
I really imagine some people having this Dialogue: "Man, I hate this Nihil attack, is there no counter to it? There is? Where? Somewhere in this palace or the swamp around it? No? Oh, wait, there's sewer Mohg and you find the shackle in the sewer, so it's probably there! No? Errrr.... Ah, yes! Varre! That dude can get you here early, right? So the counter could be close to him, maybe near Roses Church! Also not? Okay, let's see... The teleporter I took was in the Consecrated snowfield, so... No? Come on, we're beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel here! Alright, final guess, there's a secret wall in the subterranean shunning grounds that leads to that one underground area, so it must be there! Not there either?! Okay, where? At the end of a questline? In fucking Altus? And it starts in Limgrave? What in the fuck?"
I dunno, just found the thought of going through all this shit that would make more sense for the position of the tear funny...
@@Raidon484 I agree and in hindsight, I never even considered how much sense it would have made that sewer mohg gave you the nihil crystal lol. That's actually an idea I can really get behind
@@luc1 Or at least anything that remotely close to what you'd associate with Mohg... Lore wise I also don't get why Eleonora even has that thing... You're right, it would make sense for sewer Mohg to have it, since Mohg is projecting himself into the sewer, but maybe he needs to keep the guy he transformed into himself protected from his curse! Shit, that's a good idea... Gotta e-mail FromSoft
@@Raidon484 Thanks for the constructive conversation. Always appreciate some good discussion about things like this
i highly doubt theres gonna be a dlc. that aged well.
You can thank me later
I can't be bothered to do more randomizer runs but I'd watch you suffer doing them all day great entertainment
The reason why alot of people including me consider unavoidable damage a bad mechanic is because it's not fair, think about the best bosses of the past games none of them had an unavoidable attack, the premise was if you're good enough you can avoid getting hit completely, not saying I did any hitless runs myself but it means when a certain move hits me it's my fault alone, not in elden ring tho, godskin noble's belly flop, placidusax's stun locking fire breath, Radagon's stun locking teleportion, Malenia's waterfowl are all examples of artificially difficult poorly designed moves
However mohg is different, for one I don't mind nihil because it's there to create a unique experience and not just to make the fight harder, it incentive you to perfect the first phase which will help you position yourself properly in phase 2 with all the flames, it's consistent every time he only use it once and it's not a run killer like waterfowl, and above all else it's fucking awesome, mohg is how to do an unavoidable move in a good a creative way the other bosses I mentioned not so much
That’s a good take and understandable!
Regarding Mohg - I don't think Nihil is his biggest problem, but the fact that his second phase turns half the arena into a lake of bleed damage. It feels very similar to the twin Gargoyle's poison AoE, just that it's more visible and more random because of his constant jumping/flying attacks. So I don't know why you criticize the Gargoyles for that attack but Mohg's much more unpredictable splashing of blood in all directions is somehow fine. His moveset and overall design are great though.
Still, Morgott is my favorite by far. Insane variety of attacks but intuitive once you're used to it, smooth dynamic movements and amazing music. Just too little health overall.
And unavoidable damage...just has no benefit. Damage is used to signal that you're doing something wrong in this kind of game, as a virtual counterpart to pain in the real world. Unavoidable damage goes against that. You argued that it makes one preserve Estus, but that's already covered by every other attack in every fight ever. If you want people to be more Estus efficient make the fight more difficult in actually interesting ways. For example like Sister Friede or Nameless King in DS3 where you have to really learn the first phase to have enough healing for the difficult part.
Few points; gargoyles is different because it’s a duo fight. If you get poisoned you’re poisoned essentially for the whole fight. Mohg, blood loss is just a one time proc. That’s fair though! I personally don’t have issues with it, I don’t think unavoidable damage is always bad was my main point.
The problem with unavoidable damage is that taking damage is a punishment for bad play so why should you be punished for something you can’t avoid? I mean if you are a masochist then sure it’s fine but personally I don’t like being punished for no reason.
Godfrey was mourning his son
You stay for the gameplay, I stay to listen to his shit takes. We are not the same.
Luc1 is BACK BABYYY
Despite my philosophical issues with Mohg, he is by far my favorite boss, maybe tied with Malenia and Radahn.
33:12 that would be a awesome wallpaper
Gosh I'm so jealous. My randomizer stopped working and now I watch these videos for comfort. Nice to finally see someone finish the game.
Also I'm struggling with the files and setup
the download should include files explaining setup
@@luc1 I will look into it. Thanks for the tip. Also hilarious video. Keep up the great content!
@@Jacobussythegamer thank you so much :)
@@luc1 you're such a nice content creator. You get a new sub 👍
i think in the context of a duo fight the gargoyle poison stuff is bad, but on it’s own it isn’t a problem, their health is scaled well enough to where you’re already progressed to a point where running away for a little bit wouldn’t be much of a time waste
Well, yes and no. While I agree 1v1 they’re fine. In a duo fight where you’re under leveled the poison just tends to take away player agency and forces you to wait and walk around instead of being able to initiate attacks and combat
@@luc1 yeah, that’s why i specified in relation to a duo fight, if it was a solo fight i’d be fine with it but in relation to it being a duo fight, there’s no reaction or dodging. just running, it’s not very stimulating
@@thatguy12332 ah yeah that makes sense on a re-read. couldn't agree more!
TBH my biggest problem with Mohg is that he does both unavoidable damage and healing at once, not one or the other. Then again he heals a lot less in the base game, I totally forgot... fighting him in Reforged he gets back to full and some of his moves set even more of the arena on fire. Eh.
Though, someone that has no problem with unavoidable damage really should not have an issue with the Godskin fatty having a basically guaranteed damage hit either, no? Just Estus after getting hit.
Well the healing is just an artificial way to give him a new HP bar in phase 2. Like; Malenia, Rykard, Renalla, etc. which is why I don’t have an issue with it personally
53:50 "U good?"
have you ever considered a "region locked" randomizer? you start out with limgrave and you gotta kill every boss before moving to caelid, altus, ect. could be pretty interesting.
Yes, but I’m not sure how logic would work. Like, I may not be able to kill Renalla in Liurnia if the glintstone key is in Caelid. You know? I am, however, working on a Randomizer project that will hopefully be interesting. The first video should be out Friday :)
Imo another bullshit part of the blind woman's fight is her healing, especially when she regains health although you used a shield that guards 100% physical damage. If you had something similar to her like the rally system, I still think it would be more fair.
Yeah I think it you don’t take any damage, she shouldn’t get any health
@@TREVORVADER sounds fairer to me
@@Dracopyre unfortunately Fromsoft seems to not have any interest in making Malenia fair. I hope the DLC bosses aren’t like her
@@TREVORVADER I honestly won't be surprised if they are
Ah Placidusax, Queen of the Full Moon.
6:47 HOW CAN YOU MISS THAT
Why do you think from added a lot of Godskins so you can see which one you like to fight and are most comfortable by the time you get to the duo.
Honestly, at this point I’d believe it
Love this dudes content wish he posted more then 3 times a year lol
New video tomorrow 🙏
There’s one issue with the garuntee damage that i dislike and it’s the satisfaction of seeing yourself with full hp and full estus knowing that you just did a hitless boss of a difficult boss that alot of people have to cheese to beat, that’s why i like melania alot because her waterfowl dance is a difficult attack to avoid but it’s not impossible and i enjoy the challenge, now you can get equipment to make mohg easier and such but i like being at a disadvantage, day 1 I fought margit as a wretch level 1 till i killed him
that's valid. and that's a fine way of viewing it. I just like the idea of a boss that forces you to conserve everything. Like, I would enjoy a boss that by the end of the fight he had shrunk your HP bar and made you 1 HP at the end and you had to do the end of the fight like that, you know? I don't hate the mohg mechanic, but I can see why some might.
When I played a not randomized version I cheesed the twin gargoyles I had one jump off the map
re: unavoidable damage
I feel like part of the point of action games in general should be that a player can become so skilled that they can play through the entire game without getting hit or dying. Personally I feel like Mohg isn't as egregious as the beginning of Elden Ring (where you have to either die to the Grafted Scion or fall of the face of the planet) and Demon's Souls (where you either die in the tutorial or in a cutscene) or the first Seath fight in DS1 (which you either have to die or exploit the janky platforming to skip the "fight"), since not only is he strictly speaking optional but also the move in question can be avoided by killing him fast enough.
Regardless, I still prefer the Koji Igarashi school of thought that went into designing Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night bosses where you have to be able to beat your creation in no hits with only a wimpy dagger for it to make it in the game. You can just skill your way through that game if you put enough time into it. And while putting together a strategy to kill Mohg before he can unleash his "nihil" attack could be considered a skill in and of itself, you can't dodge the move regardless of how good you get.
Note: This criticism is only really relevant to action games, and not even all action games. That is to say, not only are dice-roll RPGs and strategy games not covered but neither are shooter games with hitscan weapons. The difference is in the expectations tied to the genre. Completely avoiding damage isn't really the _point_ in Final Fantasy or Gears of War or whatever.
(edited for additional paragraph breaks lol)
I just kinda view it as. Why does everything need to no hittable? Or rather let me ask this. If nihil instead made your HP bar shrink to 1 HP. Similar to the jailers in DS3, would that be an issue? Even if you’re not getting hit, it’s just shrinking the HP bar. The player is still able to utilize that skill of not getting hit, it’s just in a different format and actually forced upon you. Just kinda how I view it, you know?
Dragonkin soldier jumpscare
Dude I played the game for 2 more runs just to ask me if I wanna for for a 4th round lol
What were you talking about with QTE's?
uh, do you have a timestamp? i don't know what you're referring to
noice skills you got there :)
I'm suprised how much he struggled against ofnir.
Gideon is the Elden Chad
@@luc1 He is indeed a chad
Rusty shackleford playing elden ring no way!
I love these videos
My favorite boss is rykard, queen of the moon
Wouldn’t unavoidable damage be considered bad for no hit runs?
sure. but i don't see why that matters, yunno? stuff shouldn't be taken into consideration with speedruns, no hit runs, or challenge runs in mind. Just what is best or most enjoyable for the game.
it's a toastie.
How do you make the Margit fight worst? Just replace him with the PAIN IN THE ASS DUO VALIANT GARGOYLE FIGHT BUT WITH A MUCH SMALLER ARENA!!!😤😡
Not knowing that americans call a toastie 'grilled cheese' but constantly hearing it in media just made me think you lot slap a block of cheese in the pan and call it a day. Or even worse, one of your fake cheese slices.
I totally enjoy theese, you should make more randomizer thingies.
Altho everytime I see you abuse quit, I yell out a pussy
thanks for the vid xD
plenty of more to come :)
@@luc1 yay bro!
I think mohg is fun but I wish they made him more aggressive
Honestly 28:22 there are 2 attacks, waterfowl being to fast and shadow clones move, rest is easy and not hard to manage tbh
My bigger issue with her is the healing considering she has the most health in the game, two full bar phases, waterfowl dance, lots of hyper armor, and then gets scarlet rot on top of that.
It just feels like too much for one boss.
The cutest npc in ds3 is the firekeeper followed closely by karla. I will not accept criticism.
Alright that’s actually a valid point 🤔
Nah Andre tho
Hi Do you know if is possible that you dont find any sacred tears by making a mistake with the randomizer?
I’m not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
Take my sub good sir
I’m waiting for godskin duo in Margits arena
Surely next time
I have no problem with unavoidable damage but my only problem with nihil is that heals him if it didn’t heal him I would be fine with it but I take unavoidable damage and he gets healed that’s just not fair
Well the way I see it. It's not different from a boss that gets a fresh healthbar in P2. Like Rykard. It's just a unique way of doing it. Would you still have an issue if it was a cutscene and afterwards he had a full healthbar? Know what I mean? Appreciate the input though
@@luc1 I never thought of it that way so thanks for changing my point of view
you missed a legendary item in luiatnia!!!
5:28 why man, why?
it was necessary. the merchant killing arc is just beginning
is it god-skin or gods-kin?
1:15 Bro what 🤨🤨🤨
i uploaded this to the wrong site! sorry!!!
@@luc1 💀💀💀
Opinion on chese
Valiant Gargoyles aren’t even that bad 😂
well, they are.
If you have low damage you're forced to run around and wait for an opening for a long time. They are one of the few bosses in all of From's games where you can't control the flow of the fight at all.
@@luc1 you know what, you’re right, I completely forgot you had to fight them so early on… LOL
Toasties/toasted sandwiches makes so much sense and encompasses any filling. Grilled cheese isn't even grilled and doesn't make sense. You wouldn't call a cheese sandwich a cold/"raw" cheese lol
Nice video but I feel like the topic talks that wasn't randomizer related was a bit too long, this would more appropriate if it was stream only or a critique but this is an edited randomizer video, just my opinion.
Hey fair enough! Appreciate the video. I only keep things in there like that because I like making videos for myself. And part of that is just talking about what I enjoy or don't enjoy and listening to people talk about. I really appreciate the feedback though and will take it into account next time :)
W vid
MOHG BEST BOSS RAHHHHH NIHIL NIHIL NIHIIIL RAAAAHHHHHHH MIQUELLA IS MINE AND MINE ALONE RAAHHHHHHH!!!!!
i got phase 2 fire giant in the margitt arena...spoiler- it's impossible
Nah, just loot up beforehand and make sure to stay in front of him. The only real problem attack is the flame one, in which case just hope to melt him or level vigor by doing the rest of the world first. You got this.
@luc1 yeah his roll takes up the whole arena so if he rolls i die XD the fire i can usually outrun
@@Daisieheart the fire has some jank hit box. You can still through his roll though, and thankfully because of scaling of you level up vigor and save him for later you’ll have plenty to survive it and do decent damage later when you’re better upgraded
@luc1 yeah I'll try again a little bit later on but at low lvl def impossible. I'll try to but i lag sometimes so might be rng if i succeed : / thx for the tip
@@Daisieheart no worries. Yeah it definitely sound like pain 😂
luc 1
POG
Omg
I would like ur video.. but its at 69 likes so really I'm doing you a service. :p