S800 SkyShadow wing from Banggood - how do you glue molded EPP?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Sorry I couldn't get the build completed for this week's fixed-wing Friday but here's some of the testing I did when trying to work out which glue would be best suited to assembling this wing.
As a result of these tests, I've decided to go with flexible CA for the carbon parts and hot-glue for the foam to foam joins.
Matt Ogborne also did a glue test using some glues that aren't readily available here in New Zealand so check out his video on the subject: • ☕ RC Coffee Chat #88 🔫...
Stay tuned for the rest of Fixed Wing Friday -- tomorrow!
Product link: Product link: goo.gl/prLSIF
Disclosure: the S800 Sky Shadow flying wing was provided for review purposes by Banggood.
Useful info, thanks ! -the benefits of 'keying' the surface is firstly that it increases the surface area of glue to material and with a given adhesion capability, more area means more stress required before failure, secondly the keying creates areas where stresses will be partly in shear and not just tension.
Dude this old guy is awesome. I hope he has like a morning tv science show or something I love his videos.
Well said, probably somthing most of us overlook when we are cramming to get our planes together lol
Great primer on gluing, Bruce!!
Adhesives have really evolved from the days of Ambroid and Testor's tube cement!!
With the plethora of foam types, and having dissolved too many foam joints with the wrong cement, I went "old school" for assembling foam models, using PVA (aliphatic resin/wood glue) and found it to be excellent, as it fills the joint, gives working time, cleans up with water and I have yet to have a joint fail, even after "rekitting" a couple of models so assembled :D Using PVA on a foam joint would make an interesting Round II test.
FWIW, in my experience, classic adhesive testing indicates that a satisfactory bond is indicated if the joint remains intact while the parent material fails -
Thanks Bruce. All we need now is how to figure out which foam is which.
Nice vid Bruce , was going to say use the goop glue but you covered it at the end . I've just put my sky shadow together and did use the goop for all major joins , also pushed pieces of cocktail stick in on the winglets and barbeque sticks out from the battery bay into the wings . Just waiting for the small esc to arrive to finish , I went for the KIT version . Also as Matt suggested some light colour on the bottom for orintation (red/white checks) , looking forward to see what you think of this model . Cheers Graham
VAS includes Welders in their kits, which is a contact adhesive, and it lives up to its name. I had to cut through some of it to remove material for my camera and bays and it was flexible and tougher than the EPP around it. It's very similar to Goop, and I couldn't say which is better.
Hi Bruce . Goop is now available in NZ, I saw it at the local Mitre10.
E6000 is available on trademe , its similar to Goop (some say better)
Also can get shoeglue from local shoe shop . Thats popular for EPP builds, but the fumes are pretty intense.
Cheers
on EPP I use "Shoe Goo" for joining the EPP parts and fixing spars. When it dries it is like silicone rubber. I use hot glue for servos, so they can be removed easily. For EPO I use epoxy anywhere there might be small gaps and foam safe CA for tightly fitting joins and clean break repairs. I also use hot glue again for parts that may need replacing due to damage or failure, like servos. I don't believe there is one glue for everything.
I use Beacon's Foam Tac for just about everything. It bonds to foam, carbon, wood, metal and plastic. It stays flexible and does not crack and can fill voids. Unlike Gorilla glue it doesn't expand. I even use it to strengthen hinge joints. It allows a relatively easy disassembly by cutting it if needed. It works so well in so many areas I hardly use any of my other adhesives. It has a slight chemical reaction to Styrofoam if used in larger quantities but none detected in EPO, EPP or Depron, etc.
I too have feel in love with Beacon's Foam Tac. Makes great control surface "live" hinges. I have a old beat to near death Super Cub held together with it. When I added andirons I used Foam Tac for the hinges, they are still going strong, I am still amazed by that.
Great videos,keep teaching us! Greetings from France!
EPP, You can use: Welders, Goop, Gorilla glue (urethane), or Bsi Foam Cure. Not sure why that ca isn't sticking but that EPP looks pretty slick. The Sheet EPP takes very well to CA.
The timeing on this video is perfect!!!
A must-try Bruce ...
E6000 industrial strength glue amazing on certain applications. Available in white black and clear. Great for EPO carbon wood metal its flexible and paintable.
I'm using an "Dragon" foam glue. You can buy it at your local "everything for building" store. Yeah, the joint is like physical joint, but it is harder than material. As a hot glue gun - joint is harder than material.
But! I'm using ceiling tiles as a material for my models (50x50 cm 3mm sheet with laminating layer).
2 bucks for a 2square meters! Very light, quite durable material.
aliphatic resin is probably the "other" woodworking glue you couldn't remember Bruce.
I always enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!
Don't forget that you can get slow, medium, and fast set hot glues, too.
love fixed wing Friday! (even though I'm a heli and quad guy. )
does hot glue stick to CA or epoxy or something? maybe cover the carbon in a physical glue, then use hot glue to stick it to the wing.
you are such a great Teacher....
Bruce, give it a go to CA + Talc, yo make a paste and apply it, that's pretty strong and will grip to the foam. If the CA cures immediately when you mix it try a different talc and don't use flour.
When you rough something up with sandpaper, you are increasing the surface area.
There is now more surface for the glue to bond to.
Adhesives work on a molecular level and there is no chemical bond as such.
The glue molecules and the surface molecules are extremely close together, tiny electrostatic forces (van der Waals forces) are just a huge number of tiny attractive forces between the molecules and act like a bunch of tiny magnets.
The more surface area the more electrostatic forces.
5:50 i write that on the board for the blind people :D
lol
Samu Brail white markers !!
Hey Bruce,
Happy New Year,
A possible show suggestion for FW Friday.
Have you ever thought of doing a video on fixing a crumpled up epo model with hot water, I have done this with the nose of my axn (full speed nose in, don't ask) lol, and the results are marvellous. I actually over expanded the beads of foam because the water was to hot, but I was happy as a pig in slop it was useable again and glued all the parts back together with different glues, gorilla glue (white) and hot glue, sanded a bit and great man. Couldn't even tell it was wrecked. Also you just need a way to tell everything is straight from nose to tail, I make center marks on the top of the model and use black string tail to nose.
Just a thought, keep up with the FW stuff love it.
Dustin
If you get that 'citrus fruit' looking surface after the hot water treatment, you can smooth the surface pretty well with the back of a spoon dipped in iced water or sprayed with an inverted air can. Don't spray the foam, just the spoon.
:¬)
wordreet thanks great to know for next time, appreciate it!
At a job I had previously, we found Uhu Por (a German made glue) works well on EPP.
yup people keep recommending that to me too for fixing epp
but it works only for epp
I have had very good luck using Hot glue in-bedding /encapsulating carbon rods and slabs into foam wings. hot glue under then some over scrap off flat with a wood bit or plastic card and let cool. the foam will break before the glue will let go.
Hello Bruce. Do you have available or have you ever used a product called Gorrilla Glue? it is an expanding type glue that likes to have some moisture on the parts to activate. it works great on foam but use sparingly because of the expansion.
So with out all the back sortie I was attempting to glue Delrin witch is an industrial slide plastic. This means it is not really glue able, or at less not easily. But needing to get this project through even though it would not live long. My solution was to uses two types of glue. I roughed up the surface with a dermal and a bur bit. Then fitted the joint with epoxy. After the epoxy dried I broke the joint apart and re-glued it with CA. The part held but not by much. I wounder if this multi glue approach could work for your EPP to carbon fiber. Picking two glues that like each other and one the likes EPP and one that like carbon fiber.
Ah, you missed out the foaming polyurethane type glues (Gorilla). Are they not suitable for Epp? They do end up pretty rigid.
Personally I've been using a carpenter's glue, in addition to hot glue, for all my recent foamboard projects. It's called Joiners Mate (in the UK) it's made by a company called Geocel and costs less than half the price of Gorilla (though you have to buy 500ml) and only foams to about double it's original volume. Gorilla foams at least x5. But this carpenters glue is a physical bond type glue, which can be left to set over an hour or so, longer is better. It can be accelerated by spraying with water before joining. And foaming can be increased by agitating or spreading before joining. It definitely soaks into balsa and softwoods.
Its all I use on my personal builds and recommend on all my EPP products. My wings are hotwire cut and not molded but the bond is amazingly superior with gorilla glue.
Nice one.
I've actually found that the Joiners Mate sets firm in half an hour if I accelerate it with sprayed water and the quality of the join in indistinguishable from Gorilla.
Agree on PVA and hot glue being the main adhesives... Gorilla Glue is difficult for me to use as I cannot accurately determine how much "outflow" will occur... That said, it IS strong!!
I hear you. Gorilla sets almost as hard a wood, so you need to control it in some way as you can't really sand it if you're gluing foam. Look for 'carpenter's polyurethane glue' or something similar, it's what Gorilla is based on. I will only buy Gorilla for emergencies now as it foams too much, at least 5 time it's original volume, which makes it difficult to calculate. But I always cover any join edges with masking tape after gluing to control any excess foaming, though it sometimes spreads out under the tape.
The secret to Gorilla glue is to let it expand as much as it wants and let it fill every crack crevice and gap, within 15 minutes its holding the parts well yet the glue is still not fully cured. You can cut the excess of easily at this point with a utility knife because its still very pliable and soft. Wait another 20 minutes and it sands as easy as drywall compound. Let it fully cure over night and you have a solid very strong joint.
My S800 is coming with the post too. This is gona be my first fixed wing, so im very curious what can i do with it. Using miniquad parts with it. :)
Thanks for the tips of the glues btw! :)
GOOP (all purpose version) is amazing stuff. There are several different types. The "all purpose" Amazing Goop works great on EPO and Z-foam. Shame you can't get it there because it really is "Amazing". Stinks really bad though and you need ventilation and it really needs overnight to cure. It is a lot like that cheap stuff in the plane kits from HK but that stuff seems thinner and more "watered down". If you can get a case of Goop in NZ it would be a great investment. Sell it to your friends. I glued the soles of my Timberline boots with it once and it lasted for years.
I have good luck with the Goop also. The thing that puzzles me is what is the difference between the different types? Goop, RV, Plumbers, Marine, All Purpose, ETC.
Lloyd Prunier
LOL. I dunno. I think the plumbers type is made more for PVC. I bought some by accident once but never used it.
I just went to there web site amazinggoop.com and they have a lot of products. 12 different Goops. I'll have to do more research there. The RV Goop I have now seems to be the same consistency and smell of the Marine and Plumbers that I have had in the past. The RV says it is UV resistant. There is one listed there that is Super Goop II or something like that and I think they have a super glue type also that is quick setting.
your videos are awesome. thank you
You know some good shit, you do. Thanks for the help and info. Keith.
Thanks for the explanation.
Bruce is it true that all glue actually relies on static electricity to work? and that if you had two perfectly microscopically flat surfaces and you put them together you could never pull them apart due to the static bond?
When your hot glue gun becomes a welding tool. :D
How did you glue wings to the fuselage? It is a big surface so the hot glue goes quickly cold and does not glue that good anymore, I tested this on small piece.
Also what would you use for PLA from 3D printer to EPP? CA maybe or hot glue?
Bruce if you use kicker it melts the foam together
An ideal glue for those spars is Gorilla glue - a mixture of polyurethane polymer and CA that foams and moisture cures. Needs sparse application and taping until cured. Generally OK on Polystyrene. short shelf life particularity when opened.
Goop or Shoo glue is silicon based.
Contact adhesives are cheap and very useful too as they will stick to most anything and are flexible. Not good on Polystyrene as are a synthetic rubber polymer in a solvent.
Gorilla is a brand that makes many types of glue. In this context the polyurethane is the best as when it foams it forces its way into every pore and crevice to key the joint. Unfortunately it is expensive as once opened you have to use if fairly quickly so best to buy in small packs. Also here available in brown only so not too aesthetic,and needs careful application to avoid over foaming.
Goop is another company that sells a wide range of silicon based glues in a solvent that varies in consistency, UV resistance and rubberyness.
I use light ca glue for the entire build. My mate used hotglue and gorilla glue. My frame is 80g lighter.
Bruce, I'll bet you were trying to remember Aliphatic resin as the fourth Physical bonding glue.
getting neck hair cut there you Wolly Booger! Thanks for the great fit as always!
goop glue for everything! shame about the import restrictions :(
jamble7k what is goop glue??
What about Uhu Por glue?
I use it as a contact adhesive a lot and it seems to work great.
Lovr your whiteboard vids Bruce :)
sir what would you advise to use to assemble a large Epo model like a Skywalker X8 for example, i have gorilla glue original but have not start the build yet
The only glue you need in this hobby is high quality 30 minute epoxy(Devcon is the highest quality). Epoxy is the strongest glue in all conditions including humidity and moisture. It chemically and mechanically bonds surfaces. Ca and hot glue are ok if your impatient. For strength and durability epoxy is king. Inthe oil field we use steel reinforced epoxy putty to repair pressurized leaks in steel tubing till we can get it welded.
I have always used hot glue for epp - could melt in hot car - have flown in extremely cold weather and it held up ok.
If the glue breaks and not the material on a break test, the glue joint is not strong enough. The material has to break, which means the glue joint is stronger than the material.
i used ca to bond in carbon no problems been flying it now 4 weeks heaps of crashes no issues
hot glue for epp is like welding for metal
solvent bases chemical glues are used for glueing PVC correct?
i would try UHU POR. for my the best glue for parts like this. also you can make awsome hinges with that one.
Bernhard Huss UHU Por is my go to glue for foam.
hingers? how?
what about sandpaper on the areas to glue and using UHU Por?
I wouldn't call a glue that physically melts foam (like hot glue) a chemical bond, right?
what happened to the follow-up video?
I just built one of these every thing is working but when i try to take off it dips straight into the ground even when my flaps are fully down
How can I fix this
Motor thrust angle too high?
Hey Bruce. What happened this Friday.
GOOP, E6000 or E7000/B7000 is perfect for EPP. All the same type of glue. E6000 is less viscous and E7000/B7000 is even thinner. Banggood sells E6000 & E7000/B7000. For carbon strips or rods into EPP, I find E7000/B7000 work the best.
Foam Tac or UHU por ?
Shoe-goo?
Hi Can you help me choose the engine and propeller and esc (BG or hobbyking) to get 30min fly time or more and get the clouds :) (mix throttle) I have some 2200 3s packs and L9R + XJT module, INAV.....THANKS :)
UHUPOR works gr8 m8! 👍🏻😄 As a contactglue or wetfit.
Thanks for great vids!
i like ShooGoo for EPP. It stays flexible.
Horus review?
Yeah, the brand varies between countries and i had to look for local alternatives. But to do that, i had to figure out the technical name of the things i'm looking for. DJI Screws = 3m/2.5m buttonhead with 3mm shanks. Loctite = Threadlocker, Superglue = cyanoacrylate, etc.
Can anybody tell me the technical name for goop/gorilla? The glue that foams up a bit to fill in the gap before hardening? There's probably a local equivalent but i don't know what to ask the guy at the bookstore. I asked for foam safe glue and they just gave me CA because they didn't know which of the stuff on the shelves won't dissolve foam.
For what little its worth, you used the correct term only once inadvertently. Its not physical bond but mechanical bond and chemical bond
Unfortunately, like so many you misuse the word 'MELT'. This is the change of state from solid to liquid by the action of HEAT. Solvents make solutions -IE dissolve.
I use acetone to clean scotch primer then a plastic epoxy glue
Try Loctite 480. It's fantastic! :)
And UHU por for epp 2 epp
i dont know what type of foam multiplex use, but my hot glue gun melted it.
They started the Kickstarter for the MiniRaceWing, will we see a video about it next friday?
www.kickstarter.com/projects/flybot/miniracewing-the-crash-resistant-fpv-race-wing?ref=wrs
What is goop glue??
FlyingAmbo it's called Amazing Goop.
SHOE GOO..The Absolute strongest glue you can use on EPP...
Welder Adhesive for EPP and carbon
Welders does work well but you know me Anthony, I am a die hard gorilla glue guy. ;)
What about gorilla glue
the instaflex looks awfully like the bob smith industries bottle design.
It's time...
hot glue bad in cold
start multi rotor Mondays
Thee Best
Multi rotors are so 2016.
I vote for Sailplane Sundays.
Chris Edwards that's works too, but c'mon, multi rotors are life
+Chris Edwards what about wing Wednesdays?
I'm looking forward to Charging Tuesdays and Slope Soaring Saturdays too.
I used Goop when gluing mine, the first time I've used it and I've gotta say, it's excellent, I found some in NZ www.trademe.co.nz/crafts/other/auction-1216589564.htm
build an fpv wing!!
Use some Goop ebay google it.
gj
UHU Por.
UHU!! :-)