► Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: th-cam.com/users/TPhGames (at least some LotR related gaming videos will still be posted here on the main channel though) What are you theories about Final Fantasy VII's story? Did you like the Jenova theory back in the day? What is your opinion on the Remake (please mark spoilers)? [Hint: a week after release of this video comments are easier for me to see, when you don't answer to an existing comment and post a new comment instead] Shout outs to halkeye777 (translated Japanese texts for me) Check his Twitch Channel:www.twitch.tv/halkeye777 Twitter: twitter.com/halkeye777 ► Social Media: ➥Twitter (@PhilosophGames): twitter.com/philosophgames ➥Twitch Channel - twitch.tv/thephilosophersgames ➥ Gaming Channel - th-cam.com/users/TPhGames ➥Discord Server - discord.gg/SPW68vh
One part that I always thought was creepy. The scene where Cloud finds Sephiroth after he has spent the night in the mansion reading about the experiments. Sephiroth decides go see Jenova and re-enters the reactor. When he reaches Jenova's chamber, he literally has to ASK Jenova to open the door for him "Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door." The door then swings open *by itself* W T actual F?!😨
I think of it this way... Jenova is not a creature with a will in the sense of being a singular being; but rather it is a lifeform that simply carries out its genetic destiny to absorb life from planets. It is frozen in North Crater and essentially stopped, its embodiment of a assimilated Cetra is frozen and mindless. The thing here is, its cells are re-introduced, first to Sephiroth; Who is very much a person with his own will and own mind; but his genetics are of Jenova, so he is destined toward the same genetic destiny - (not unlike having blue eyes, etc). Sephiroth inherits all of Jenova's abilities given time to assimilate within the lifestream, with the other parts of the Jenova genetics (Cloud, etc) being subject to him. This is not so much Sephiroth taking control, but defaulting to control. They are in a sense the same will; With Sephiroth being the ego, and Jenova being the instinct.
Disagree; jenova definitely has a specific will. We know this because there is one point in the story where sephiroth's will is in conflict with jenova, and she wins.
It was always in front of us: Səphīrōth (סְפִירוֹת, medieval Hebrew form of Sephirot; also spelled Sefirot), is a plural noun in Hebrew; the singular is Sephirah (also spelled Sefira). The Sephiroth are described in the Kabbalah as the manifestations of God that allow him to manifest in the physical and metaphysical universes. Sephiroth also means "counting" (of numbers). Sephiroth is the manifestation of God as well as the concept of "counting". He is just the MAIN avatar of Jenova, her favorite form; while the other "numbered" clones are just vessels of her will.
Oh very interesting. Thank you for the explanation. My knowledge about Hebrew is sadly very limited. it seems like a very interesting language. Yes that makes sense in this context. Sephiroth is connected to the number 10, isn't it?
@@ThePhilosophersGames Well yes, although that starts to get very metaphysical. The Sephiroth (singular Sephira) are the 10 "concepts" or emanations that form everything: they come from God and are God. Some other numbers are important for Jewish kabbalah, like 49. Stay with me here: In Jewish kabbalah "Malkuth" (you could pronounce it Marco) is the 10th and closest to men Sephira, the revelation of the Plan of God. Also in the sub-divided sephira Count of the Omer (the 49 days of Seven Weeks of the Exodus), the last and 49th day is referred as "Malkuth inside Malkuth". It seems the creators of this game were big enthusiasts of Jewish esoteric texts SINCE SPOILERS: Marco, tattooed with the 49 number, takes the form of Sephiroth in the Shinra building Cosmo-video thing, revealing the Meteor plan. And there are many other things from Jewish culture and myth of you analyze them, like the exodus-reunion to a Promised Land, the angelic wings... even the name JENOVA is suspiciously close to JEHOVAH.
@@arklaed I have been doing some light research into Kabbalah due to my interests in the direction of this game. I am very much interested in any knowledge you would be willing to share.
Pretty interesting stuff about Sephiroth. I recently learned that ra in japanese means from. Then thought about Cetra. Ceto (even though it's pronounced Keto) is a goddess born from Pontus and "Gaia." Setra sounds better than Ketra IMO, so let's go with that. Cetra could have been a name given to the ancients meaning "from the goddess of gaia" which would be Minerva? Shin in japanese can mean many things but as a name it means true or real. Shinra would mean "from that is real/true" which to me kinda makes sense. Considering their affinity for the ancients and trying to simulate their power by using mako reactors to create materia. Hachiman, also known as Hachiman-*shin* is the Japanese god of war and the protector of Japan and it's people. Shinra is a syndicate of war and definitely looked up to as the protectors of Midgar and it's people. This could be pretty far fetched but it was something fun to get my mind of the remake confusion.
Personally, I think that there is a multi-generational fight going on, that manifests in Sephiroth. Jenova vs. Cetra (evil spirit energy vs. good spirit energy) Hojo vs. Gast (bad science vs. good science) Sephiroth vs. Aerith (a "hybrid" of Jenova and bad science vs. a "hybrid" of Cetra and good science)
I always thought of Jenova is like the alien from The Thing a creepy abomination with no defined form that can shape shift into anyone and yet I find the idea of Jenova even more terrifying than The Thing since it can mess with your mind as well.
Jenova set everything in the game in motion right up to Shinra sucking the planet dry with reactors. Shinra are already clearly enacting Jenova’s ultimate goal of parasitically destroying the environment. Early in the game, people talk about how Shinra were originally just a weapons manufacturer for local militias. As time when on they attained enough power to be the de facto world government. Jenova had to have influenced a former president of the company’s mind to give him the idea to harvest mako.
FF7 is basically John Carpenter's The Thing meets Final Fantasy. Imo Sephiroth was his own person until he got a little to close to Jenova. It was then that the dormant Jenova cells became active. I believe he begins being influenced by Jenova at this point. This leads the him naturally building an instinctual drive towards "becoming one with the planet". Which is obviously Jenova's instinct to assimilate every lifeforms other than itself. Then Sephiroth is thrown into the lifestream along with Jenova's head. Normally you'd think Jenova is a normal symbiotic organism, but I believe since it has "intelligence" then it must also have a lifeform that is the head honcho. The instinct is always there but the control must still from the will of one lifeform. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to keep intelligence and be a true symbiotic lifeform. Okay so Sephiroth falls in the lifestream with the head of Jenova which must the original intelligence of Jenova. Now here the either fused, fought, or the most likely was the head Jenova was destroyed by planet while in the lifestream because it was a foreign organism. This leads to Sephiroth's personality becoming the head honcho while still keeping its instincts for symbiosis.
I love this. It makes so much sense that Sephiroth's desire for dominion over the planet is more about Jenova shaping his will. Finally in Nibelheim he succumbs to Jenova and seeks her out - the first act of Hojo's reunion theory is Sephiroth going to Jenova and taking her.
I thought that Sephiroth made that clear in Advent Children? Something about turning the planet into a means of traveling the cosmos. Humans have no need to do that but an intergalactic planet consuming alien sure would.
Dunno if this comment will ever be seen, but I just rewatched advent children and this theory video was suggested to me. That Movie really enforces just how powerful Jenova is, it totally focuses on "Mother" calling the villains "Larval forms of Sephiroth". In Remake Aerith calls Jenova Dreamweaver, "The Source of Everything". I think she was being very literal as it comes to our narrative going forward. Why did Sephiroth suddenly go crazy in close proximity to Jenova? Why do every single scientist who worked with Jenova cells lose their shit, murder each other, and manipulate the World specifically so that Jenova can complete her original objective? It's all about her, Period.
Yes for sure there are also some "Jenova is powerful" hints, but "officially" Sephiroth takes over, which is (as I tried to explain with this video) not really implied by the original, game esp. if you play the international versions of the game.
@@ThePhilosophersGames It was retconned for marketing purposes. I think the writers at Square are all perfectly aware what the original intent was, but upper executives at the company forced an official retcon (disguised as, “oh no, you just didn’t get it”) after market research showed how recognizable and iconic Sephiroth’s character design was to gamers. Keeping the original villain as a shape-shifting esoteric space parasite wouldn’t have any marketability.
The thing is sephiroth being the mastermind theory,IF he would have gotten jenova's memories wouldn't he have later learned that she wasn't his real mother AN WHAT her actually goal was. It just make so much since on so many different levels THAT JENOVA is the master mind. She may not have been able to control sephiroth BEFORE he went crazy,but the moment the Nihbliem incident happen she could have been able to take control of his mind. Since he was injected with jenova cells in the womb, he has her blood she is immortal, BUT he's the master mind? Yeah he COULD possibly be helping,but I doubt in control. I also think since she has the ability to turn into people an make illusions. She is probably making it seem like sephiroth is doing all the work. But we see the REAL sephiroth stuck in mako. We also know that Jenova was going to get someone else to mind control AN call on meteor for her,which could be the part where Sephiroth helps her. OR even than that could be her controlling him.
I think there is something child-like (in a good way) about the urge to explore and find out how the world really works. I might be that which makes it so that children love good stories and want to hear them again and again if there is something to be understood from it. I recall my own childhood where I was obsessed with books, games or movies which gave you a story to think about. I never really got around to play through Final Fantasy VII, but I got to understand where your passion comes from. You kept that drive to immerge deeply into stories like LotR and others. Thank you for taking us with you
I always say you gotta separate the waters in fictional stories, there is always something, at least in the good ones, to be learned from about our past and reality itself, not just a moral message. People think names and plots comes from the creator's mind, that is bs, they always take something out of ancient history, cultures and persons who were soo ancient that we barely know or care about so we took it as an original, but in truth there is barely something original from any story no matter how good and well written you think it is, in fact we probably like it because it is related to us, it connects us with the firgotten past and it fuels our subconscious need for enlightment that is rooted within our very dna, not because they look beautiful, sound beautiful and whatever, because many other stories have done the same and it just doesn't click unless you are easily biased and manipulated, you just don't eat whatever pointless garbage you are feed in, if there is something of value is because it is real!.
I absolutely love all these theories delving into the true lore of one of my favorite games out there, and the way you presented the info and evidence was really well done! :3 Here’s what I personally always believed: Seph is indeed under the control of Jenova. After he began to question his identity and true purpose, his mind was weakened and vulnerable. Jenova, although long dead, was able to live on through the cells in her victims. She took the confusion and hints of malice that were building in his mind and completely bent them to her will, turning him into his own kind of monster (very poetic as that’s what he’s always feared of becoming) Seph refers to her as “Mother” and suddenly gains this motivation to “return” the Planet to her - something that wouldn’t even benefit him in the end. Why would he give up this life he had? He had humanity and a good heart long before, as shown in CC. The fact that despite all the torment Hojo put him through as a child, he was able to maintain kind integrity really shows how strong-willed he is. I just could never see Sephiroth stooping to a point of harming others and the Planet for his own purposes after possessing such good morals. Speaking of which, is just so happens that his goals of Meteor and wounding the Planet have the same planetary destruction motivation that Jenova had thousands of thousands of years ago? :3 Put in simply, in my perspective, Sephiroth was nothing more than Jenova’s favored vessel. As powerful as a warrior he may have been, Sephiroth objectively was just an enhanced human at the end of the day. Would he *really* have the power to control some cosmic monster known for eradicating entire species? Or was he just the puppet? The best part about this game is all the room you have to decide your own interpretation. If you love Sephiroth’s character because you believe him to be this unstoppable force of evil, then you would go with the Seph theory. If you would rather see him as completely innocent, then the Jenova theory is for you. Personally, the idea of the main villain of the franchise not being so one-note and leaving room for redemption if he was to be freed from it all is an approach I would love to see in the future :3
I was 13 when i played the game (the german version). I played it again 2018 on Steam. For me Sephiroth always felt like he was a victim and his mind got shattered by finding out the truth. Thats when he went into full soziopath mode but got stopped by cloud. Jenova however is a much more convincing antagonist because she/it has the lovecraftian unknown/cosmic horror touch on her/it. So naturally her intellect should be far superior to that of the humans she faces. Sephiroth is to her like darth maul to palpatine if that makes sense. He is a tool, a weapon and expandable. I agree to the Jenova Theorie. That lore that got added later was just capitalizing on the fact that Sephiroth became basicly pop culture.
Sounds familiar ^^ I can't agree more. I se him as a victim too (I think the Jenova Theory makes his character very tragic). But yes you are right, I can imagine it has to do with Sephiroth's popularity, that he became so present in e.g. the Sequels.
I always thought because sephiroth had jenova cells when he was in the womb jenova wanted to transfer herself over to him and called out to him when he was in the reactor with cloud, to reunite her cells with his hence the reunion, I always thought of jenova as a parasite that came down from earth and latched itself onto a female cetra and that explained why it looked like a girl with monstrous growths all over it, the reunion eventually happens and sephiroph changes form to fully turn into a jenova sephiroth
We'll learn more in the remake trilogy which this guy conveniently ignored and ignored the fact the English version of the OG game had a bad translation 😂
Sephiroth has always been and will always be THE avatar and physical manifestation of Jenova. He fell into the lifestream with her head. It’s not that much of a stretch to say that they are one and the same. Sephiroths power we see in the remake is pretty much the type of power that a pseudo human jenova would have. Hopefully we get a boss battle like that in the future parts of the remake to lay her to rest once and for all.
Another thing to note is the fact that Jenova probably needed Sephiroth to use so she could use the Black Materia. I'm pretty sure to use materia you'd have to be a resident of the planet because materia itself is just the crystallization of the of planet and Cetra knowledge. It'd make sense for Jenova to keep Sephiroth alive just so she could use magic which is the power of the planet. It just make sense for Jenova to not be able to use it imo.
Jenova was posing as Sephiroth the whole nine yards all the while Sephiroth's body was in the North Crater. I been figured that out. The real Sephiroth was entrapped in a crystal like his real mother Lucrecia.
This was very enjoyable to watch/listen to! Definitely subscribing. I wanted to chime in on Sephiroth's motives because I've been thinking a lot about his treatment from the world around him. Sephiroth was a super-soldier who was created for the sake of research and weaponry. He'd been lied to by his father about his mother, and the company that basically raised him had, in the long run, controlled him to do their bidding. (That being Killing in the Wutai war, encouraging young boys all over to enlist in soldier, and much more) But, Sephiroth's frustration in Nibelheim didn't stem alone from his groundbreaking epiphany, it came from a want to finally have control over his own life. There were many times in Crisis Core where he and Zack would wonder 'who they were fighting for'. I could imagine this thought constantly ran in mind as he thought about his true origins. Wanting to control the world (or become God) was a step above what Shinra had posed itself to be; a governing god that used it's monopoly on Mako for world domination. Ironically, however, the last person that controlled him (in my opinion) was Jenova. Because the appearance she wears in battle is much different than what she shows Sephiroth while being intubated. She must have changed it to make Sephiroth think that she resembled him. Sephiroth hasn't the slightest clue of Lucrecia (his birth giver), so Jenova had to have been calling him to the room. She took advantage of his loss of sanity/sleep and tried to get him to set her free. After he had lost to Cloud, I think he ended up doing a lot of thinking in the lifestream. And that's when he stepped over Jenova, to then employ his new plan.
Thank you, happy you found my video interesting :) I guess in a way Sephiroth has a similar identity loss as Cloud, but Cloud handles it better. Maybe because Cloud is not alone and has good friends (esp. Tifa), who help him. In this regard it's plausible to install Sephiroth as something like an antithesis to Cloud. Cloud wants to be a normal human being, the Cloud from the past, not a constructed Clone. Sephiroth embraces what he is and wants to expand on it. I still think that this makes most sense, when he also had a "friend" who pushed him there, which imo is Jenova. But still I think the game does not establish Sephiroth's intention well enough for this step by its own. He thinks he's a Cetra, so what? He could have become anti Shinra eco terrorist similar to Avalanche. But he spreads his hate towards all humans. He does not even try to be a Cetra, but does the exact opposite (hurting the planet). So maybe he learns later that Jenova and so him too was not a Cetra. Maybe this is where his true madness would begin (he learns in teh life stream). But the game never explores this part and is very vague about all of it, to the point that with the translation mistakes one could think he is also just a puppet and this seems totally plausible too, if you ignore the later publications of Square. I also hate the idea of Sephiroth and Jenova surviving at the end, because that would mean the original game lied to us. Bugenhagen can hear the planet to some degree too (not sure why he can, but it's implied multiple times) and seems like a reliable source (the game establishes him as one). Everything bad is removed, maybe even humanity and 500 years later it's not clear hat happened. Sephiroth is however not present.
This is an old video, so I don't know if you check comments, but a couple things worth noting: 1) Inspiration for the villain of FFVII, according to Kitase, originally came from Jaws, and was supposed to be eerie/lurk in the shadows and not appear until later, so really cool scenes like the assassination of Shinra became part of this. However, because Sephiroth became so iconic and intrinsically tied to FFVII as a brand, he became promoted and widely used so much in compilation content, so he loses that element in much of the expanded content including Remake. 2) The development and story of VII changed radically when the mother of original FF creator Sakaguchi died durinf development. They used the story to talk more about permanence/pointlessness of death. As a result, it's hard to say if other elements and themes changed halfway through. Also Sakaguchi left Square well before the release of FFVII Ultimania, which reveals that Sephiroth being the puppet master is cannon. Nomura has been given director control of much of the compilation as well, and since he was the character designer and not director or a writer of the original game, it's hard to say if creative interpretations remain consistent. As such, I believe it's very possible with the combination of staff changes and the rise of Sephiroth's popularity as a brand that Jenova was supposed to be the original mastermind and the retcon of the Ultimania and extended VII content upgraded Sephiroth's role to capitalize on his popularity. Sephiroth as mastermind sells more merch is the most cynical take, I suppose.
There are many views of, who is in control and why, but in the end Jenova remains the main Antagonist, no matter if she was controlled or not nothing of this conflict with the planet, would exist without her, but maybe the Shinra company as villains, without her Meteor would not be possible at all. And the dream sequences showed Jenova was still active as a puppeteer at one point, until later Sephiroth might take over, but a very changed Sephiroth who was doing what Jenova planned for thousands of years. So again, Jenova might be absorbing not only bodies, but also assimilate the personalities or the personalities assimilate Jenova and she(It) allows it, if this means everyone is on the same side, summon meteor for godhood(just drink the energy grow stronger and move on to the next planet, basicly) A little bit like Larvos in Chrono Trigger, if you think about it. That alien did not have much of a personality either, had no use for cell infections, but was the Meteor all by himself. :D
I prefer to think of it this way; Jenova isn't quite so much 'the Puppetmaster'; more accurately, she's the Influencer. Sephiroth is at least partially A puppetmaster, but his actions are guided by the influence of Jenova's own will. Essentially, everything Sephiroth is doing, he THINKS is basically all him, but really, he's incredibly susceptible to Jenova's influence. The way I see it is that Jenova doesn't have a mind that operates like a human's does; given her metamorphic nature and initial behavior among the Cetra, I believe she replicates what's in a person's mind in order to lure them in for the kill, like a Siren, or some kind of animal that uses the voices of loved ones to lure in prey. Jenova is more animal-like, in that her MO is a lot more straightforward. This means that she plays off of whatever Sephiroth thinks or wants in order to motivate him toward her ultimate goal [basically to absorb all of Gaia's energy] So if he thinks his purpose is to become a deity and cleanse the planet of it's filthy inhabitants; Jenova will play into that motivation, so long as it achieves her end goal. [SIDE NOTE: I like to think that Seph's motivations are rooted in his disgust for the whole of humanity, first motivated by Shinra grooming him to be an ultimate soldier and giving him some reason to fight anyone who isn't Shinra on their behalf, and solidified after he realizes the very people he thought he could trust had lied to him and were even more evil. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for it, if any, but it makes sense to me] The reason she does this is because, on some level, she knows she needs a stronger, conscious mind to achieve this massive goal, which is why she keeps Sephiroth's mind intact, even through the Lifestream. What I believe happened in the Lifestream is that Sephiroth only survived because he went down with a piece of Jenova [and specifically her head, no less] and the two must have mentally fused, somehow, at least become mentally permanently attached to each other. In other words; Sephiroth is the brains and the mouth, but Jenova is that voice in the back of his head egging him on and pointing him in the direction she best prefers, and she keeps him alive and functioning purely because he serves as a vehicles for carrying out her goal
This is the way I've always thought about it. Seph all the way to the end thinks he's the big bad only for the calamity to show up again in a different person and when asked says something like "No my dear, you all were always on strings."
Excellent video. I absolutely loved the background you gave on your first playthrough of ff7 and how you found the alternative theories, etc. It really took me back.
Thank you, much appreciated ^^ Yes it really takes you back. Were fantastic times. It's also a very special game for me that had a lot of influence on me I would say (same with Deus Ex from 2000).
@@ThePhilosophersGames I am surprised at how much of the game I'd forgotten completely. It still holds up, though! Plays much better than I expected in 2024.
hojo is the most misunderstood character in the whole game, no one questions why hojo is crazy to begin with, hojo injected jenova cells into his own body tricking lucrecia to have sex with him to see what would spawn in a child, the result was sephiroth, hojo stopped having free will the moment he injected himself with jenova cells, behind the scenes he was helping jenova gain strength over the planet and helped sephiroth achieve his goals
I really admire your work. The final few minutes of this particular video (musing on the validity of authorial intent vs reader interpretation) was particularly well said. Bravo!
I think sephiroth meeting jenova in nibelheim triggered some kind of awakening within his cells and initially jenova manipulate sephiroth to take her head with him so that she could manifest herself again with sephiroth body as a physical host but jenova realized that sephiroth strong will was going to carry out her wish better than herself therefore she decide to completely submit to his will. That is why sephiroth is able to shapeshift himself throughout his clones and that the jenova reunion is centered around him now and not jenova herself.
I think the Reuinion could be around Jenova (too), because Jenova's head is at the North Crater too. We don't have much (in regards of the "strong will") beyond a claim of Cloud (if we looked through the translation mistake) and how would he know. Ofc it is possible that his will power helps him withstand Jenova, but as said considering how much detail and complexity we get in some areas, this explanation is clearly lacking. But it's not only withstanding, it's controlling Jenova? Why? A fusion between Jenova and Sephiroth makes much more sense, because in this case they don't have to "fight". But as shown in the video, ignoring the correct translation of some passages, the game strongly hints at the Jenova theory.
I fully believe the Jenova theory. What I believe happened, is that a ton of people misinterpreted the game and thought that Sephiroth was the main villain, and so Sephiroth became a super popular character. Due to this popularity, FF7 was retconned to have him as the main villain, and that's what they've gone with in sequels, side media like Kingdom Hearts, and the Ultimania Omega. Jenova makes too much sense for it to be ignored, and in a way, she really was the puppet master all along, making even the audience believe that she could be ignored in favour of her favourite puppet and his reputations and power, Sephiroth.
Great video, I always thought of Jenova as the main antagonist of the game. Most people I've talked to think it's Sephiroth. I always saw Sephiroth as a broken and vulnerable man, similar to Cloud in many ways, but unlike Cloud he gives in to Jenova and begins enacting her will. All of Sephiroth's decisions in the game serve to progress Jenova's end-goal for the planet, like a puppet being played. I'm still very hesitant about all the changes made so far in FF7R, but it's exciting to think that in this new timeline, maybe Sephiroth actually has managed to break free from Jenova's control and is actually trying to help Cloud like he claims. It would make for the greatest redemption arc of all time.
Was 8 years old when I first played this, even then I knew it was something special. Hope you're enjoying the Remake! Awesome vid, getting stuck into watching.
Yes good old time ^^ It's a really special game for me personally too. So I'm very happy that I could make this video. Yes curious how I will like the remake. I fear I won't like it this much, but we will see. I fear the story changes.
I am of the belief that Sephiroth’s Masamune is actually summon materia, and it summons… the katana. Sephiroth has shown to conjure up the sword at any moment, like in Advent Children, and in the remake the scene where he stabs President Shinra and Barret, the sword dissipated after each stabbing. That is why the sword is left behind on the president’s body, because he can just resummon it later. Recently in the Ever Crisis trailer featuring young Sephiroth, it seems his sword is different when he was younger. It could be that this is before the time he acquired the Masamune, or it’s possible this is the earlier form of that summoned sword. Regardless, this is an important detail that is probably elaborated upon in that game.
in every ff7 adaptation his sword is the same the only thing that really chances is the handle color and sometimes the design of the handle the blade is mostly the same save gameplay model vs cutscene differences. The masamune is not summon nor a materia it is a physical weapon and also given that materia like added effect can change the property of weapons are armor it’s more relistic he just has the size changing spell for mini placed on the weapon. Even then the sword isn’t left in his body for ever as to be fair sephiroth is just using jenova and the many bodies made from its cells to travel around he probably picked it up and we know this given that when he killed one of the large snakes around the chocobo farm he did use masamue nor leave it behind but instead in pale it on a large stake most likely an actual tree.or part of it. And even in the remake it just summons and resummons it to be far given that he died with his weapon it’s probably just tied to his soul. Saying it’s a summon is a really big stretch even for what’s just a “theory”
By the end and into AC, yes. I believe that over the years, while trapped with Jenova's head, I believe he gradually became a distinct being rather than a puppet. If you remember, Bizarro Sephiroth resembled a demonic version of Sephiroth that had Jenova pulling his strings. However in becoming Seifer Sephiroth he broke free of his "strings" and became the main consciousness behind the Jenova Cells. Especially by AC where he seemed less obsessed with his "Mother" and more motivated by his own goals. In Remake I believe the versions of the Jenova controlled Sephiroth and the future Sephiroth who regained his sense of self and has separate goals in the story.
@@dragoonmk4203I feel AC contradicts way too much to even consider that His clones are still very obsessed with mother and his goals were ultimately the same. He didn't change. And it was still all about Jenova cells. AC couldn't even get summon materia right..... which is red. Idk how you gonna summon with blue all materia
@@delsingray5923 He still refers to her as Mother, but he clearly had more of a sense of self past being a Jenova puppet. To me it felt less like Jenova using Sephiroth's memories to affect the world and more like Sephiroth using Jenova to further his goals. And I think the current Sephiroth has completely taken the metaphorical wheel.
The part where Sephiroth appears in the forest i always believed he was speaking to Cloud when he says the girl will be a problem as he/Jenova were already overwhelming Clouds mind, thats how they almost brainwashed Cloud into cutting down Aerith. Aerith probably realized at the Temple event that Cloud's mind was compromissed and that he'd try to stop her from using the white materia if she allowed the group to tag along. What i gather from all the info is that Jenova doesn't have a personality but is driven by the instinct to overtake worlds, consume its resources, move to the next host. In the game its described how she almost wiped out the cetra, not by the use of force but subterfuge. She kind of reminds me of the Thing from another world, a mish mash of matter that assumes forms familiar to humans to decieve and prey on them. It has no personality, its drive is to consume. It is obvious that she controls Sephiroth at Nibelheim as Sephiroth is also shown suffering from migraines similar to Cloud when Cloud is seeing illusions or is actively being controled.
Brilliant work, if I dare say so myself. I actually remember coming to similar conclusions when I played the game back in the 90s. It never made much sense to me that Sephiroth was the main villain. I actually always saw him more of a tragic villain similar to Darth Vader who was at every part of his life used by others for their own means. Even his creation and birth was not that out of love, but one of experimentation and devious plans to make a super soldier. I always interpreted the story as Jenova influencing him, driving him mad and then using him for her own means. I also never saw true Sephiroth as being evil. It's only once he meets Jenova that he goes crazy. That makes him more of a fallen hero than a villian. And since Jenova is by nature a shapeshifter and good at manipulation, she just took Sephiroth's form to use Cloud, confuse her enemies and hide her true identity. After all, the enemy you don't know and don't understand has a tactical advantage over you, and this is exactly what she has done in the past when she attacked the Cetra.
Well done, I highly enjoyed this video. You argue your point convincingly, and I think the case can be made that the hero (not necessarily the protagonist) of FFVII is Aeris (I'm sticking with the misspelling after 25 years) and the villain (again, not necessarily the antagonist) is indeed Jenova. As was the case before the events of the story unfolded, the struggle FFVII portrays is simply dualistic, the Cetra (the Planet capital 'P', Nature capital 'N', Aeris i.e. 'The Good') versus an invading force (Jenova, 'The Calamity', the unnatural, i.e. 'Evil'); the whole plot is reducible, not in a bad way, to the struggle between the Ancients and the Calamity. That struggle ultimately took the form of Cloud & Co, Aeris' (that is, the Cetra's) Champions, versus Sephiroth, Jenova's planetary vehicle. I must admit, given the backstory's and character's strong Abrahamic basis, I have some sympathy for the idea that, like the God of the New Testament, Jenova, at one point called, as you note, 'Synthesis', and Sephiroth were, or became, consubstantial; that Sephiroth, poisoned by Jenova's genetics in utero, retained a human(oid) form but was, developmentally, genetically, *substantially*, alien, to the extent that Sephiroth and Jenova were independent persons of the same metaphysical being, which might explain why it's so hard to tell where Jenova ends and Sephiroth begins. Also, total sidebar, has anyone else noticed Safer Sephiroth's similarity to a Seraphim?
At only 4 minutes in, Yes.... I've thought this was very clearly stated by the game.... that jenova is the enemy. Sephiroth is not the pilot; his "mother" is the pilot. Ever since he went mad on Nibelheim after discovering the truth of his origin, and after cloud defeated him at the reactor, he's been non compus mentus - if even alive at all - in a chunk of materia... which JENOVA - not the life stream - pulled to the north crater for keeping in stasis until the black materia was brought to him... that's the first time in the game that sephiroth awakens... and even then, jenova is still in the pilot's seat.
I totally buy into this theory. Just based on the literary placement of Jenova throughout the game: She's always brought up in a deeply mysterious way, mostly in the story-focused moments when there's a break in gameplay (Story at Kalm, Ifalna's videos, etc.). Personally, I felt Jenova was confusing the first time I played, because most of the scenes that give clues to her purpose and effect on the active adventure take place in a handful of brief, complicated, distracted scenes that happen before we're told any of the history and facts of Jenova. So she just has this underlying presence of something evil. It's not until the second time playing through that she made any sense The way we're first introduced to Jenova... just as we're caught up trying to learn the Shinra Executives' names and plots, we come to this one room, with this science chamber sitting VERY CONSPICUOUSLY to the side with this intriguing purple light. - I even remember exactly how I felt about it 20 years ago - I wanted to know so badly what was in there that it was making me anxious. It wasn't the kind of feeling you get when you think you found a cool item. No, I wanted it to be part of the story, in some deep way (and this was before all the weird science stuff even came into the story). I just can't exaggerate how BOLD that purple light science chamber was. I remember I was SO WORRIED that it might just be part of the background scenery. - It was such an OCD Relief when Cloud checks it out. There was something unique about that scene of seeing Jenova- like you have no clue what that thing is, but they show it in detail as if you're supposed to understand. It's espcially interesting that Barrett points out that it has now head - I couldn't even recognize that it was a Body at all. After Barrett says this we don't get to re-examine... Later on when we see Jenova in the Niberlheim reactor cutscene, we focus in on it's weird Sunglass wearing Female Face, and by that point the story is so crazy that I wasn't thinking about her Headless image... Not until I replayed the game, remembering that Barrett pointed out her not having a head, was I able to recognize that it was the same body that we see with a head in the Nibelheim scene... -Jenova is presented through the entire game in a way that hides her in plain sight, right at the center of all the Calamity, and even by the end of the game, her existence remains less than clear. This is what makes FF7 so replayable, it has a very shrouded, symbolic, cerebral narration that makes the plot seem completely different each time, especially in the context of who's the Antagonist (Sephiroth, Shinra, Meteor, Jenova, Hugo, Materia...)
I remember the first time seeing jenova in the shinra headquarters. Freaked me the fuck out, i didn't touch the game for a week lol. I actually recognized it as a headless body because of the tits and the weird eyeball on it. Creepy mf.
Not convinced by the Ultimania people talk about. Written a while after the game was released and aims to appease Sephiroth fans. I think the reunion theory pretty much tells us the jenova cells are manipulating him, especially with his concentration of cells. It's a tale of manipulation.
Nice vid, I always play the game considering Jenova is behind all of this. It is way more coherent and interesting in many many ways. Not everything can be explained, but the creation of the game itself was a bit chaotic and we can only fill the gaps with our own imagination. This is also what makes this game so great ^^
Thank you :) Yes, I fully agree, you need to fill the gaps with your imagination and own interpretation. For me Jenova as main antagonist is much more interesting too.
I like the whole explanation of the relation of Sephiroth's cocoon to his forms at the end + Jenova Synthesis. As a kid, i overlooked what "synthesis" means, and it clicked as an adult that they fused for real and jaw dropped. Now why was only half of Sephiroth's body preserved in the cocoon, is the question?
The original game jenova was definitely in control, she/it even does what ifalna says and makes herself look like the inhabitants of the planet and uses sephiroth as her host, you could even say sephiroths 'will' is a result of being exposed so early to jenova cells, I mean would he have the will if he hadn't had any exposure to jenova cells? Because I believe it's all jenovas tactic, hojo and lucrecia's son would have been nothing like sephiroth without jenova, Its like they created jenova's chosen one for her, a human looking character already exposed to jenovas cells, who is a hero to people. Another point, why would sephiroth be able to 'outwill' basically a God?, For all we know jenova has done this for millennia, but sephiroth cant basically control her? Why when the only superhuman in him is caused by jenova cells in the first place, jenova is using sephiroth as a puppet. The best fact is jenovas that good at her natural cycle that even fans are believing that its sephiroth, that's exactly what her tactics are, especially a very strong human who is basically 75% jenova already. Sephiroth was pushed after his cult status rocketed. But I believe in my head that my explanation is the original story.
Yes I agreed. Could be possible that they "buffed" Sephiroth in the lore (they for sure did it to some degree), but I also think it might be possible that they wanted Sephiroth in control and just messed up here and there.
Happy to hear. I'm quite curious how people see this video, without knowing the game. I tried to explain everything, but no clue if I succeeded. Yes it's interesting how up-to-date the game is topic wise. It features ecological damages to the planet, a "virus", power of monopoly, corruption, etc
@@ThePhilosophersGames Alien and corporate AI threats also I believe. I knew most charracters from pop culture so video wasn't impossible to follow altho not super easy.
It's always fun to hear someone talk about something they're passionate about, the only thing I would add with my incredibly limited experience in the world of Final Fantasy 7 is it makes sense to believe that sephiroth was powerful enough to control Genova just because in all games and movies heroes and villains don't necessarily have plausible sources for their power and their will. One of the things that makes something most exciting in a storyline is when someone who doesn't seem to be capable of doing something does it just because they want to badly enough. I think it's in stark contrast with how reality works and that's why people like it so much. In truth we are limited beings who have been given boundaries which we cannot cross and I believe that the real source of power in our lives is the God who created us. A lot of good popular stories show people escaping from that and doing great things on their own or with their friends help. I think people crave this level of power and control over their own destinies and gravitate towards those storylines for that escape but I might be breaking it down way too philosophically XD it's a relatively well written story which synergizes extremely well with what people want from a story. God bless you and thank you for a very entertaining and insightful video
My favorite theory is based on a tiny detail most people forget about Jenova and I'm glad the video mentioned: it's a virus. Dr. Gast discusses it with Ifalna, Aerith's mother. It's not an alien organism with some sort of consciousness. It just wants to infect, reproduce and consume everything. Shinra's scientific research discovered properties such as enhanced strength and magic capacity using the cells of what they thought was a Cetra (the pronunciation is not "Ketra" by the way, it's Cetra with a soft c, as it was Setora in Japanese). In reality though, it was the frozen remains of Jenova. In the experiment that led to Sephiroth, when Jenova cells were injected directly in the pregnant uterus of Lucretia, both human and Jenova became one, granting Sephiroth all his abilities but now with a human consciousness to guide it. The Jenova aspect in Sephiroth's body remained dormant until the Nibelheim incident, and from then on Sephiroth was reborn as the will of his "mother". Not a puppet of it but its own mind and master. Finally, in human terms, consume everything meant absorbing all the Lifestream of the Planet. It's not my theory, I read it somewhere long ago and loved it and stuck with me. It also resonates with the more subdued religious themes. Now, if some of you notice similarities between that and Parasite Eve, well both PE and FFVII were basically products of the same brainstorm of ideas Square had in the mid 90s (along with Xenogears in the religious, mental breakdowns and freudian stuff).
Yes the virus theory is also an interesting one and very unique. It has some foundation too, but I think there are also some arguments against it I guess (e.g. the scientists (Lucracia, Hojo, Gast) never call it a virus). It could explain though how Sephiroth got Jenova's abilities. Pronunciation-wise, yes you are right (I even looked up the Japanese word for Cetra while making the video), I think my tendency to say "Ketra" comes from me being German, where C is often pronounced as K; it's a bit inconsistent. I also checked some other FFVII videos on YT and usually there people said "Ketra" (native speakers). But now that I think about it: is there actually any English word that starts with the letter C and E (ceramic, certain) that have a C pronounced as K? Ofc words starting with CA do, like "can", "cannon", etc. I write it down into the mistakes section in the description and now I know for the future, thanks for the hint ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames English is not my native language as well, but there are some words with "c" and "e" that are pronounced with a "k" sound, such as celtic. Can't think of many though
Jenova is a shapeshifter alien. It is also a virus carried through its host body, hence the mako tanks in the shinra mansion assisting in the creation of SOLDIERs, and how cloud is "related" to sephiroth via Jenova's injected cells. Jenova utilises the forms of different people which is why you don't see the real sephiroth until far into the game. That's my take on it anyway 🙂 it's complex stuff but interesting 🙂
So the problem that I have with both the Sephiroth & Hybrid theories is that, as you pointed out, the "Jenoroth" clone didn't recognize Cloud while in Junon. If Sephiroth was in control >at all
I don't perfectly remember the prison scene but couldn't it just be that the power went down during the rampage or some guards tried to get into the cell to flee
You once told me you named this channel ThePhilosophersGames to be a channel about games, not Lord of the Rings. I’m glad you found the time to chase that goal. Really fantastic content with a very interesting perspective and well researched points. I look forward to the next one!
Yes I remember ^^ From time to time I love making game related videos and this one was a passion project (had the idea probably over a year ago). It's a nice change here and then, even though I also love making LotR content. The film/book differences and references series is really fun to make too. The last FF7 video performed really well, so I hope this one does too. So far I'm happy with it. Maybe I make a little review for the Remake too.
Chimera Theory. Similar to splicing two different fruit trees together to make one organism, when Sephiroth died in the Life Stream, he and Jenova were rejected by the life stream because they didn't belong on the planet, so they were isolated together and merged to create a separate entity that was a combination of the two: Jenivoth. Jenirphoth? Sevoroth? All of their strength, and only one weakness: spiky blond hair. And probably a low sex drive.
Considering that she was defeated by the Cetra in the past it makes sense that Seph is needed purely for his Will and his physical strength. It still makes her the antagonist since Sephiroth is merely being used as a tool to help her goal
But Sephiroth was also defeated by only a human (Cloud in the past in the Nibelheim reactor). Where does it say that Sephiroth's will is so powerful? He is just considered a powerful Soldier and he went insane when he found out about his past, maybe making him a perfect victim for Jenova to use. Also sorry for the late answer
Well said sir ; this is what i have always thought since i played the game for the first time and even if developers state the opposite, Jenova Theory will always be the cannon for me . Sephiroth , Genesis , Angeal all are victims of the mad people who were supposed to be their family . Genesis murdered his own family because of that reason , Angeal's mother committed suicide because of her pain and regrets for what she caused in her child's life , Sephirot's mother committed suicide( didn't die) because of immense regret for what she have caused in her own child's life . When you visit her in the cave , first thing she asks is her son Sephiroth . When you think of Jenova Theory, story becomes so tragic and the supposed villains of the story become just victims and you start to pity them ; they never deserved that life but their fate just sealed by their own family when they were just in womb , their body abused and their lifes ruined. This adds another level of complexity and uniqueness to the supposed "villain" Sephiroth and overall story of ff7 .
Sorry to disappoint, but I really hate Advent Children's story with passion 😅 I also hated the changes made to the FF7 Remake. I think both destroyed the tragedy of this original interpretation, glorifying Sephiroth to a bad ass villain, while this interpretation made him more a victim, who was created by Shinra ina morally questionable experiment exploited by Shinra (that does not change) and ultimately lost control and became another chess piece of Jenova (maybe one that Jenova has a deeper connection to). I really liked this idea. I also liked the idea that with FF7 the story just ended. The planet cleansed itself from all evil as Bugenhagen explained in the game. From this perspective a sequel with some new kind of Sephiroth makes no sense. I think AC ruined the ending of the original. The remake now seems to change everything and sadly removes consequences greatly. But the finite consequence of death was a main theme of the original, which was now removed because a Deus Ex Machina can come out of nowhere and change things. With this you open the door to make death and life arbitrary. Usually a writer would try to create the illusion of organic story development. In a good story you never think about that a characters dies or lives, because the writer wrote it down like that. In FF7 Remake the writer makes it very obvious that this is the case by implementing those destiny ghosts. You could argue they are now defeated, but the idea (and what it does to consequences of the game) is so random, that in my opinion he can pull them out anytime he wants them, but these ghosts are not natural to the story. They don't develop organically out of the world and story story telling. They are just there, added to it to play with the fact, that this is a remake and the story is already written, but it might be a different universe. This in my opinion makes the story far less interesting though. It actually reduces the impact of story elements of the original from my perspective and those heavy impact moments is what FF7's story lives from, but with this it's like a mockery. I absolutely hated that. It's like the writer breaks the 4th wall and says: yes I know we already have the original story and you know what will happen, but will it? No, oh yes, but no on endless repeat. And this all the time, like an annoying meta-commentator. As a result very FF7 Remake video I can make is a rant about it 😅
Doesn't advent children cannonize the jenova theory? Kadaj and the other remnants speak of mother. But kadaj speaks about if he is chosen or will sephiroth. This is pretty clear evidence that sephiroth is still answering to jenova. At least partially. Or maybe it should be described more like, when jenova has renunioned enough, and has power to animate, she will take the form of sephiroth. The box didn't contain sephiroth cells, it contained jenova. As im sure you are aware. So yet again, as a full fan of the sephiroth big bad, it does seem that without jenova. Sephiroth would not be. She afterall was injected into him, giving him the power he wields.
About the masamune left in the president later in the game you can get a clone of masamune in the gold saucer…maybe that’s how it didn’t disappear it’s just a clone of it…
After playing all games in the ff7 universe and saw the movie i always had the the impression that Genova and Sephiroth(after his death) are the same thing. The game does indeed leaves you with that impression since Sephiroth doesn't have much character development untill we get to Crisis Core. I also learned some time later that they went with word by word translation for ff7 which was terrible and we, at the west, lost a lot of insight. Very well documented video about Genova overall and you should really cover other games aswell
So I took it upon myself to find the exact pages within the Ultimania Omega that pinpoint the Jenova/Sephiroth topic and have found some very interesting information that actually states that both Sephiroth and Jenova are involved together, but there’s a big asterix on the “both” and “Jenova” parts to this. There are actually pages dedicated completely to parsing which specific Sephiroth sightings are Sephiroth or Jenova (pg. 212), but again, there’s still a caveat to the latter. I had a hard time translating that particular page, but I believe my simple layout in the next two paragraphs states it accurately. Beginning with Sephiroth, anything and everything to do with Cloud and the Sephiroth clones who had Jenova cells injected into them (the black cloaked people who were mentally broken from the Nibelheim fire and experimentally tested upon by Hojo) are being controlled by Sephiroth. That’s confirmed clearly on pg. 211 on a picture excerpt, the second from the bottom. The exact quote states: “Reunion is an ability as a Jenova (part/cell), but orders to Sephiroth Copies are for (from) Sephiroth as their master.” (Direct translation, but anything in parentheses here is actually what I believe the imperfect translation is saying. I don’t think any of my additions are stretches, merely clarifications that make it easier to read). The other part to it is Jenova, more specifically her body parts (throughout the game, not including the one named SYNTHESIS at the end) which as I stated before, are confirmed to be acting purely on the impulse of mimicking Sephiroth’s will instinctively, even if there was a time thousands of years ago where she was alive and aware of the use of her abilities to shapeshift, deceive, close proximity, and infect. So during FF7 proper she’s not conscious of this, and also Sephiroth is not directly controlling her, but she is still carrying out his will instinctively because she’s instinctively mimicking his personality, memories, desires, and thus his will. She is simply a husk of her former self, the same way the Cetra are also not conscious anymore, but expressed now through the judgement of the planet. So instead of being more of a puppet being controlled by Sephiroth, she’s really more of a minion, albeit one for a super being who is congruent with her instinctive purpose. This is also clearly confirmed on pg. 211, on the second large paragraph of the page: “Once upon a time (said in this way as to insinuate not anymore), Jenova used this ability to get close to the Ancients and plant a virus in them, causing them to die.” Continuing in that very same paragraph, again on pg. 211, it’s even confirmed some of Cloud’s front/personality/memories during the beginning of FF7 that carry throughout the game are not just Zack’s, but the Jenova cells within him instinctively copying Tifa’s memory of Cloud whenever they met just before the start OG FF7 before Cloud agreed to help Avalanche, where he started acting very funny and unstable until he meets Tifa. Tifa elaborates on this before they really delve deep into Cloud’s subconscious in the lifestream if my memory serves me well. The quote on that page states: “Not only Jenova itself, but also those who possess the cell have the ability to speak (not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean exactly), albeit imperfectly. Just before the start of the story, Cloud, who had a mental breakdown, returned to a seemingly normal state as soon as he met Tifa. By Jenova’s ability within him, because Jenova’s cells read Cloud in Tifa’s memory and Cloud's ideal image, it formed a new personality” (which is the personality Cloud is expressing in the start of the OG FF7). It’s confirmed again on pg. 213, where the quote states: “Cloud, perhaps because he was weaker than ordinary people both mentally and physically, could not become a SOLDIER and could not even maintain himself as a Sephiroth copy like the other residents of Nibelheim, and his spirit completely collapsed. After reuniting with his childhood friend Tifa in Midgar, he was supported by a false personality that was neither a copy of himself nor his original self.” These examples are here to show how Jenova(‘s remains) can have her (their, in relation to her remains) abilities instinctively (also to say unconsciously) work in other aspects even outside of the Jenova/Sephiroth original debate. So while both Sephy and Jenova are involved and shown in Sephiroth’s image, sometimes it’s Sephy actually taking control (like the cases of Cloud and those in black cloaks) and sometimes it’s an instinctive Jenova part, which instinctually mimics the shape, memories, and will of Sephiroth, again more like a minion, as Sephiroth isn’t actually directly controlling her 3 main parts, but she is robotically going through the motions of doing what she does as a mimic, and she has most likely instinctively mimicked what would most closely serve her instinctive purpose of destroying a planet and moving on to the next one to do the same. Sephy probably learns of Aeris’ death on his own, as she went back to the lifestream he was inhabiting when she passed (maybe Sephiroth also has some way of learning what parts of his will are carried out by her parts somehow as well? Not sure and can’t speak to it atm, but just a thought that came to my mind along this logical path of thought). Something else that speaks to Sephiroth and his power is stated on pg. 213 regarding why some like Cloud get overcome, some like Zack don’t, but again mainly why Sephy has his power: “The case of Sephiroth is extremely special. Until he learned the secret of his birth, he lived as a human despite his legendary strength, and five years ago he began to walk a different path from humans. However, instead of being placed under Jenova's control, he seizes Jenova's initiative and controls their actions. This fact makes us feel the extraordinary strength of the life form Sephiroth.” It’s also stated within the book that Sephiroth does officially die in Nibelheim 5 years ago (around the same pages mentioned already but if you want a specific passage I’d gladly go back in and find it), showing within FF7 proper itself how the great mechanic of the lifestream that speaks to the beautiful theme of life that the game is conveying is also what allows Sephiroth to be this Lovecraftian type fear and entity, one who does not die or completely cease, always looming, who can actually come back to the surface through the means of a weak/broken mind (or possibly even a willing participant). Please let me know if you would like pdfs of these pages as well in case you would like to copy and paste them into translation programs to see it for yourself. Pdfs of the Ultimania Omega can also be found on google, as well as more translations about these topics and many other pages of support from the Ultimania Omega on gamefaqs.com (can also provide that to you as well). I’d also love to hear your opinion on all this as well. Let me know if you have anything you’d like to share.
The Ultimania guide, like the Compilation and the Remake for that matter, was made after Hironobu Sakaguchi left the company. It definitely had an impact. Anyway, it makes the story more interesting to me if we consider that Sephiroth is a tragic villain who faced a similar identity crisis as Cloud but lost himself and became one of the monsters he hated. Taking a psychological struggle and making it more literal helps to convey it to the audience in a simple and interesting way, as a metaphor I suppose. However, Jenova appears to be a chaotic entity itself, so it might actively need to borrow a form to manifest its will, just as the author needs some catalyst for an abstract concept. The remnant of Sephiroth would definitely help it mess with Shinra and the party. He was basically considered dead before Cloud and Aerith came across the headless body, and they would be key to unlock the black materia. Call that a soft hybrid or assimilation theory if you will. It is somewhat based on the movie the Thing after all. Thanks for the video !
Yes something definitely changed at some point inside Square. Hironobu Sakaguchi leaving and not being as close to the project anymore could be a reason. I gave up hope for singleplayer Final Fantasy games a long time ago. And every time I give them a chance again I'm disappointed. Yes Sephiroth is definitely similar to Cloud when it comes to identity crisis, but Sephiroth handles it very different. Cloud tries to find his own past self and Sephiroth somewhat embraces what he has become. It's also really tragic inside the Jenova theory imo. Esp. that it's possible that he does not know that he is not a Cetra to some degree, but a human-alien hybrid.
Sephiroth was Sephiroth for many parts, and he was not mindless. But it was clearly Jenova the one pulling the strings. But unlike for other that mind control was used. With Sephiroth was just manipulation. He snapped when he found out his origins. It goes along the mentality of when a good kid found out he is adopted and so become a rebellious kid. With the whole, "your not my real parent!" attitude. Even if the parents were perfect. After snapping Jenova takes advantage of his weakened mind state. Offer him a family and a propose a huge one at that. Kinda like a cult work and recruit him. By the end even if/when he reach a point were he learn that he is not a Cetra. He also learn that he is not a Cetra, but something "better" more powerful. With momy Jenova filling his head with "you are not some measly Cetra. You are a *GOD* ```disclaimer you gotta help me crack open the earth first``` A God" By feeding him this "she" can further manipulate him. And he will not care that in the end he wan't a Cetra. So there is not real "master and mindless puppet" between Sephiroth and Jenova. Neither of them is mindless. This is more akin to Palpatine and Anakin or Sauron and Sauroman. Sauroman/Anakin are not fully mindless puppets but they are manipulated, coerced and corrupted into doing their "masters" bidding. And although they fallow their masters, betraying their masters is not unthinkable. Sauroman if he had the power he would bend Sauron to his will instead for his "loyalty" is power based. As for Vader and Sidius is a bit more like Jenova and Sephiroth. Cult like. Anakin did saw Palpatin as a mentor/father figure, he won him over by gaining his trust and feeding him with something Anakin craved. When he was at his worst, Pal was there for him. Like how Jenova was there for Seph when he breaks down. They, Seph and Ani, are victims here, even from their conceptions, there was meddling, the got a bad hand and were manipulated into monsters. Anakin does gets better at the very end, with help. But Sephiroth double down, he doesn't even have someone to help him. Not that I believe it would've help him at the end. He wanted power above all else. You can find psychological similarities here and there, bits, on more entertainment pieces. In DC comics and Marvel, in SW and LotR, hell even the MCU has the Loki finding he is adopted and later throwing a tantrum. And by tantrum I mean invading a planet as a God to rule or destroy who oppose him. Then acting like it was all tomfoolery. I don't think Sephiroth sees as anything that he do as evil, he is above all that. And everything he is doing is a means to an end, to obtain Godhood. Anyway, great video, other than I'm pretty sure there was no clear puppet master and mindless puppet. As for his powers, he is strong with the Jenova cells, allowing him to use powers Jenova has, and it is also connected to the world in his half dead state, tapping in to the lifestream. You are focusing too much on out of time events. Like comparing Sephiroth power now with his strength when he was defeated by Cloud. Not the same. You could say he was more human then, he is more Jenova/monster/spiritual now. Like saying Gandalf is weaker because Sauroman beats him. Later when he return he is strongest. From the beginning Sephiroth true abilities were limited by his "human body" something that no longer limits him. He body is on the Northern crater while he is projecting around the world.
43:30 ish, by the time cloud meets jenova on the boat, hes already been injected with jenova cells. So she should have not only known him but also had control of him.
That can always take some time, but I'm actually quite happy with the views. My Gaming content sadly does not get that many views and publishing videos for multiple unrelated (or only very distantly related) topics on the same channel is also not ideal on TH-cam. But I think the video still has potential because after the Remake some people will replay the original, because the Remake is very different at many places and also not the complete story, so I expect the video getting slowly more views over time.
This is the reason why I am fine with the changes in remake and not just being a 1:1 remaster. Because we wouldn't go anywhere else lore wise. We would be in the same spot as we were in 1997 after beating it. Now things have opened up to give us the nostalgia we wanted but also be able to piece this complexity together. And if it turns out that Sephiroth was too just a puppet and Jenova has in fact been the antagonist the entire time rather than a dormant clump of cells at Sephiroth's mercy... yeah no, she's still alive just dormant but still conscious and uses the bodies with her biology to do her bidding because of her dormant body. *I really hope Jenova is the very final boss fight in remake and is unlike anything we have seen before.* We have seen Sephiroth beaten already so many times in OG, in AC and in remake. With his exposure in the remake I dont think we are just gonna keep fighting him throughout the parts as the main boss fights.
I would have actually preferred they would not milk FF7 at all, because it somewhat contradicts the point the story of the original tries to make. the trend of just not ending stories drives me insane these days (and just make sequel after sequel until a remake is done with sequels again). Instead they should (imo) just make totally something new as they did with all the other classic Final Fantasy games. Instead they "rewrite" the lore (and postulate interpretations), which puts in in a state of "arbitrariness" of the writers. Esp. the FFVII Remake's story did feel like it happens next what ever the writers are up to (which is ofc always true for fictional stories, but it's a hidden truth). It did not feel like an organic story development and it compromises the themes of the original story. Death and sacrifice seemed meaningless, etc. I absolutely hated the FFVII Remake, actually almost as much as I hated the story of Advent Children. I would have preferred staying more true to the original story and with that getting a good story or put the energy into something new. Square seem to have lost its ability to write good, interesting, somewhat meaningful and coherent stories for single player Final Fantasy games.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I understand. We all got our preferences. It's difficult to come to a conclusion though, we have no idea how this is gonna transition into the rest of the story. So personally myself I been trying not to come to a definitive conclusion that they are completely rewriting. I'm sorry you hated remake. I loved it. Even with the changes, my desires of nostalgia were met and kinda like some new stuff. I don't care if they milk it, I don't want it to end. The characters, world and base story are my favorite, I want them to keep going so I have something to look forward to. Also with remake in the name already means creating something new. Completely remade. They are going for this "creating something new" remake while still blending it with nostalgia which has become a dream for some fans and a nightmare for others. Likewise if they did a 1:1 remaster, a lot of fans would love it but then there would be the ones like myself that want more. I played through FF7 OG many times, although I would be grateful of a 1:1 there wouldn't be as much anticipation and mystery cause we know everything it would just look and sound better. I too was overwhelmed with the dumpster truck of an ending but it has grown on me. I hope you like part 2 more :)
Great video. You really took the time to explain the jenova theory and honestly it's got me thinking in a good way. Played it as a teen but didn't dig into the details. Just thought, sephoroth is bad. Jenova is a mystery. But you made a strong case for the jenova theory which helps me see sephoroth as a character with more empathy. The jenova theory also makes me think along the lines of religious thought, where often Satan is supposed to be someone physically handsome but mentally extremely influential. In this case, the physical would just be manifestations of sephoroth for jenova to extend her influence and destroy humanity. Anyways, do you think that the ending of ff7 is a "bad ending" with the uncertainty if any humans survived? All we see is red 13 and don't know if humans bonded with earth or if they were anniliated. It seems many people were upset by this ending. So I think with ff7r, they are trying to use this theme of "fighting destiny" to offer an alternative ending, which I'm personally hopeful but very nervous if they can pull it off.
In Crisis Core, you learn that there was an experiment on three individuals - Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth. One was a clone, another's parent was injected with Jenova Cells after impregnation, and the other Jenova Cells implanted in the egg itself. Hollander attempted to make a Jenova clone using his own son and Genesis in that could absorb the lifestream and not take any negative side effects from it, but both of them failed. One was able to absorb it but would be transformed every time he did, the other would slowly degrade with every copy he made. Sephiroth, however, was the perfect 'clone' that was able to absorb the lifestream without losing himself in it, retaining the ability to flow within it. Essentially, it gave him immortality that even in death, he couldn't be absorbed by the lifestream yet could move about it freely. I believe Jenova was another Omega Weapon with a whole other lifestream, sent off after a planet died in order to create a new future on a dead planet. It just so happened to find a planet full of life, and the virus it speaks of is simply the other lifestream invading the current one. The function of an omega weapon in FF7 is to absorb the lifestream upon the planet's destruction, and the other being Chaos kills any living being to collect the rest. He continually talks about doing what Jenova did - absorbing the lifestream and creating a new future on a distant planet with him as it's god. My question really is - is Sephiroth an omega weapon made in human form, or is he the Chaos for Jenova collecting the lifestream for Jenova so they can make a failsafe and create a new future on a distant planet?
That part of the "expanded story" I really did not like. There is no indication for all of this in the original FF7 from 1997 (ofc not it was not planned as such and that is why it feels it comes out of nowhere). The idea of the Jenova Project was not the lifestream itself, it was making a Cetra to find the Promised Land and get to its resources, because Shinra assumed Jenova was a Centra. Only later due to Hojo finding Gast and Ifalna, they learnt that this might have been not the case and maybe here it got the let's make super soldiers idea (or as a side effect during the initial research). The only form where Sephiroth might be able to fuse with the lifestream (leaking out due to the meteor's impact) was in a hybrid form with Jenova, which we see later in the game. Sadly I don't have a good answer for your questions, because I more of a purist when it comes to FF7 and for me the stories told in the games, films and so on later are for me like fan fiction. I'm not so deep into them either.
Great work. Just finished FFVII for the first time last night and I couldn't wrap my head around Sephirot and for me mostly felt - to describe it bluntly - as a scarecrow/phantom created by Jenova as he was known as a very powerful soldier - for me the Jenova Theory is not just the most fascinating but also the theory which makes the most sense. I still do have some open questions and ideas - which is why i will replay the game with "Beacause" retranslation mod again - with the danger running into more confusion. There is one thing I would like to discuss - its Cloud. Who is he, is he really a failed experiment? Why does no one remember Cloud and Tifa when they return to Nibleheim? Why do only Cloud and Tifa share similar memories? No pun intended, but Clouds memories are clouded - and we only get fragments of what might had happend in Nibleheim - and furthermore how he did overcome Jenovas control? At some point in the story even Jenova should have noticed that Cloud is becoming very powerful and a threat. Furthermore, Cloud also fell into the lifestream and survived it. I will replay it again and will see if there are any clues - strengthening my Cloud Theory. Was Cloud Jenovas backup for Sephirot or an antagonist deceiving her (unconsciously) - created by his own will or maybe by other entities? Or maybe its just a blunt love story between Cloud and Tifa and how Cloud found the drive to overcome his fears. Tifas martial arts master Zangan, carries and keeps her alive after the incident in Nibleheim to Midgar - thats what we found in the note hidden in Tifas sheet music. So what did happen to the people in Nibleheim and to Tifa and Clouds memory after all - where does their special connection come from? Maybe Tifa is also living false imprinted memories? Cloud is the one stopping Jenova with the help of his friends - how could he complete such a difficult endeavor - a failed experiment, just a puppet to Jenova - and in the end more powerful as her? Was there a turning point, a point in time when the planet chose him to become his avatar - was this before or after Aeris (Aerith) death? It seems that cloud is cleansed after defeating Jenova - which would make sense, as cleansing him before would have alerted Jenova, and she might not have let him that close. There they are - my incentives for another playthrough. I'd love to discuss them with you @ThePhilosophersGames and people in the chat here.
If you go to Nibelheim in the present back into Tifa's room, you find a letter, that explains, that the people in Nibelheim are actually actors. Shinra rebuild Nibelheim after the incident 1:1, experimented on the survivors (Mako and Jenova cells; like with Cloud and Zack too in that secret sequence) and placed them there plus actors, who pretended nothing happened. So some of the Jenova "Clones" are actually people of Nibelheim. That is why they don't recognize you and you (Tifa and Cloud) don't know them and you can call them out for it. Cloud's and Tifa's shared meomries are true. If you enter the Shinra Lab in the Manor of Nibelheim after Cloud rejoins the party on CD2 (the Mideel thing), you start a secret sequence, that shows what happened to Cloud and Zack after that and how they got to Midgar - in case you missed it. So Cloud is actually the Cloud from Nibelheim, but he was put into a Mako tank, injected Jenova Cells and thus experimented on (same with Zack). Zack as Soldier however had already Jenova cells and Mako in him and was pretty much not really affected by this. Cloud in contrast had huge problems with it and his mind was basically nuked. When Zack was shot, the Shinra Soldiers left Cloud for dead. But he crawled to Zack and somehow melted with his personality. My theory was, that the desire to become a Soldier (and the pain of failing to reach it) was still so strong in him, that this was the only anchor for his mind and he grabbed it, basically becoming Zack. And since he had Mako and Jenova Cells he is actually now a soldier. All other Jenova "Clones" (so normal people just brute force exposed to Mako and Jenova Cells) also showed the same behaviour. they were not able to talk meaningfully anymore, (seemingly) did not know who they were (nobody showed sings of personality, they just blindly had the drive to go to Sephiroth/Jenova) for the Reunion. Interestingly Cloud has in my opinion no number, because he escaped. And all Clones failed, no matter if they had a number or not. The idea must have been to create another Sephiroth (= Sephiroth Clone) skipping the difficult method of using an unborn child. Else I have no idea what the idea of that experiment was at all. However all the poor people's mind except Zack's (who was a Soldier, so trained and selected after physical and mental tests, to withstand the procedure) were basically destroyed. But in the end Cloud could also get a personality back (Zack's) and when he fell into lifestream, his former self could even be restored, making him the only success. He is the only true Sephiroth Clone. A misconception is imo also that Cloud was weak. He wounded Sephiroth (which Zack could not) and later threw him down into the Mako pit. So he defeated him twice. it must also be considered that Cloud was wounded too, when he was captured and experimented on, and his body still survived. So Cloud was actually very strong. maybe his mind was not ready for the Jenova Cells/Mako exposure. It is also not clear how this experiment was different from process of becoming a Soldier. Maybe the exposure was more intense? Soldiers are not called Sephiroth clones, but the principle behind is seems to be identical. Maybe it was because they were strong enough to resist? FF7 alone does not answer this, but implies that there must be a difference between both processes. The humans turned into monsters in the Nibelheim reactor are also different. So I assume there are 4-5 different methods: - Mako and Jenova Cells exposure in these pressure tanks -> creates Monsters over time - Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to an Embryo -> Creates a being Human/Jenova Hybrid like Sephiroth (cat eyes) - Controlled Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to trained and specifically selected humans -> Soldiers - unkown degree of Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to randomly selected Humans -> creates so called Sephiroth "Clones", who lose their mind and become puppets (it also seems an epierment based on a theory and so far didn't work) - Injecting Jenova Cells (if there was exposure to Mako too is unknown) -> does what we see with Hojo at the end, who quickly mutates in several phases However Cloud somehow manages to overcome this, which is quite fascinating. In the end Cloud does not really win alone. It's Aeris, holy and the planet. Holy alone was also not enough (delayed and too late?), but teh lifeforce of the planet (prophecy by Bugenhagen) who cleanses all and wins. Cloud and his friends just freed the trapped (by Jenova/Sephiroth) the Holy spell, which was an important part too, by defeating or weakening its "keeper". Still Cloud is the only true Sephiroth Cloud, the only success. You could also interpret as him being Sephiroth 2.0, maybe a better Sephiroth (Cloud e.g. also travelled through the Lifestream maybe with Aeris help, just in the opposite direction as Sephiroth once and without Jenova's head; Cloud went from the North Crater to Mideel, while Sephiroth went from Nibelheim to the North Crater). Which is why he became so powerful. Tifa also travelled the Lifestream (to help Cloud) and the constant conflicts maybe made them very powerful too. All had strong reasons to fight Sephiroth, Jenova and Shinra. Sorry for the wall of text. In case you answer I will definitely read it, but probably won't have the time answer again in this length and detail, sorry for that in advance =/ There are a lot of great posts here already, but long texts usually require longer answers and they are very time consuming (and this is not my only video with long comments).
@@ThePhilosophersGames Thank you for taking your time and give such an elabore answer! I indeed missed the secret sequence showing what happend to Cloud and Zack. (Noticed it while watching your video). Also missed the letter explaining the people in Nibleheim. Your reply made things a lot clearer to me now. I 100% agree that without Aerith (Aeris) there would have been no way to stop Jenova at all. It appears to me that the devs took plenty of ideas from shamanism when creating her and the ancients. (which might also explain the Wolf appearance in Advent Children - but lets not dive deeper into this movie ;) ). I just started the 2nd playthrough - and this time i am using a guide to not miss anything story related. It might take a while to get through the game again, especially with a certain amount of scrutiny. So far I like the new translation a lot. I will definetly come back here to give drop some thoughts. Take care!
No problem, I like answering comments ^^ Curious what you will think or find out. I also played through it on stream (in March/April if i recall correctly) to prepare making this video. I only know a bit of that one translation from the Reunion mod and some parts I looked at were translated quite differently translated towards a certain interpretation, even though it did not exist in the original text. I had one instance of a text that was not in the original Japanese text at all. Some were however much better translated, so take it with a grain of salt I guess (if you use this one, no idea if there are others). I however only looked a very few parts in the original translation an noticed it only there. Wish you a lot of fun ^^
Jenova is just like the profound darkness from phantasy star universe, an alien organism with ties to both the physical world and the spiritual or metaphysical if you would, to the sense that she is basically immortal and everlasting, even if you reduced her to atoms she or it would still return because it is the avatar of evolution, in the most wicked and twisted way of it, so even without a body it's will carries on in others, feeding on their negative emotions and corrupting them like a virus. This is all inspired by the mythological story of the annunaki and the first humans who were created to serve the ancient gods who were highly intelligent beings with godly technology and it all ends with humans unconsciously serving a dark entity who created the material universe and claimed to be God, but God is a plural word so that is why you have multiple sources of media who don't speak of a single God but different deities who serves as avatars of many aspects of the cosmos.
Great video! Thank you for making it. I just finished original ff7 and I really enjoyed this video. Have you played the remake? And if so have you seen the theory that sephiroth in the remake is from the future or the original ff7.
Thank you, happy you liked the video :) Original FF7 is still fantastic. I hope you enjoyed your playthrough. Yes I think it seems like a very likely theory (from the perspective of the Remake), but I have to admit, I did not like the Remake that much - esp. the story and the changes to it. I don't mind that it's maybe a different timeline, but I think the story has its problems nonetheless.
Hey thank you for taking the time to write back, I read the other comments after and seen that you’ve already had to answer this question many times sorry about that. I can understand how you feel about it. Thank you for creating this video real quality work. Also the pinned comments were very interesting a real good read.to answer your question from a different comment I discovered your video when I was researching Sauron (also a great video) I seen this and it really looked cool but I held off cuz I wanted to beat ff7 before watching. I know you don’t like other ff7 content and I think people are asking because they liked this video so much they want more cuz that’s how I felt after watching this.
No worries. I answer so many comments every week, that I can't memorize them. This video only gets comments relatively infrequent. So I was not aware that I already answered this question in the past 😂 If I'm aware of that and it's a longer, i sometimes copy paste what I have written (because it makes no sense to write it again, I'm lazy 😅). Oh interesting that you found this while watching my LotR stuff. It's usually quite likely, but still surprises me a bit in this case ^^ To make a long video like this - with tons of research - you need some passion for the project and I only have this passion for the original game. I could imagine maybe covering another aspect of the original game at some point. Thanks for commenting too ^^
Very interesting. This kinda reminds me of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (it’s one of my favorite games). Malos is an Aegis of destruction and hates all life made from his creator...but those feelings come from the driver who awakened him, Amalthus. So, Malos was manipulated and Corrupted by another. And while Malos is the final boss, he never felt to be the main antagonist. The Jenova theory feels very much like this. Why interesting.
Never got into Yenobalde, but heard good things about the games. Nice to see some parallels between different series. That is what I often liked about JRPGs, they had really unusual stories, settings and ideas compared to many western RPGs (there are exceptions too like Planescape: Torment, etc).
Funny because monolithsoft were working in the same building at the same time, sharing and swapping ideas with the writers of ffvii and even wrote the first draft pitch of ffvii. But the expanded lore says seph is just a badass so Jenova is just his bitch
Wow great theories. I am also leaning to the Jenova theory. So as long as Jenova is alive, "Sephiroth(Jenova zombies or puppets) " or any other jenova impersonations will be able to return over and over again or take other forms.
Check out this video: This one's a toughie because Sephiroth lost his mind when he reads and misinterpreted Gauss journal at nibelheim so he basically inherited a jenova like will for exterminating everyone. Also, Jenova goes to the location of crystallized Sephiroth instead of the other way around.... or maybe the Jenova body was just going to its head as Sephiroth took that. In either case, the lines are blurred meaning this could be Jenova and Sephiroth meld so much so that Sephiroth can control Jenova's abilities even outside his own body. th-cam.com/video/96c6zro3lmM/w-d-xo.html
OK i had to revisit one more time and check out this website. In the remaster, when cloud says to specter Sephiroth (the Sephiroth in clouds head probably Jenova/Sephiroth messing with clouds mind) something along the lines of "you're already dead...", Sephiroth sounded confused "I am?".... So Sephiroth really died and Jenova is no longer dormant and maybe she is identity disoriented in the similar way that Cloud thought he was Zack..... Jenova was already a world destroyer, which suggests Jenova is a bio weapon like the flood of Halo. There is only Réunion and destruction and never any desire for propagation. And Jenova does need the mind to be weakened in order to control a person (Sephiroth was unable to take control of cloud in “Sephiroth (Jenova?)" moment of desperation to prevent Holi. There was also the barrier around Holi and that knowledge could only come from Jenova. Sephiroth mind had cracked long ago in Nibelheim and being exposed to so much Mako in the livestream....may be unconscious and disoriented if Sephiroth is indeed alive or can he even be considered alive given how disoriented he is. Jenova is the only one powerful enough to deal with the livestream (she clearly has destroyed many worlds) and her will to destroy is so strong that she can remain intact in the livestream and looking for opportunities to break free and complete her plan.... Oh yeah the video: th-cam.com/video/fGDuZP_Hgrg/w-d-xo.html Oh and this one is tinfoil AF but is mad funny lol: th-cam.com/video/QOVMxv16nrE/w-d-xo.html
I liked that deep dive. That's cleared up a few things that I was sketchy on. I noticed a common element with Lucricia's, Sephiroth's and Jenova's bodies all kept preserved in some sort of containment being rich in mako energy. I think that bit about the release of a virus that made the ancients see their mothers and brothers and turn into monsters makes me wonder if Jenova isn't nothing more than a psycho active virus. After the Niebelheim incident, Hojo injected into Cloud some of Jenova cells. Cloud adopting the identity of Zack and forgetting many things about his own life before that point could have been early symptoms of the Jenova virus. Every time Cloud got a flashback or a vision, these might have been episodes induced by his condition. I'm still working on this theory but I think there's something there.
Kind of a side topic but I read a theory somewhere that Jenova could be a Lavos spawn, however a not yet developed one, that was seperated from the main husk in order to seek out other planets and worlds to consume. Square loves their cosmic parasites.
In the game, I don't remember anything saying that Holy did anything to Sephiroth or Jenova. It merely pushed back Meteor, and it couldn't even do that unless Sephiroth was already dead. Which is why you had to go to the crater and take care of things, or it would have already done it.
I've always found the Jenova theory to be much more interesting than "Sad angry man is so sad and angry that he dominates an alien superbeing and tries to destroy the world". To me, Final Fantasy VII is infinitely more interesting when viewed as an experimental blend of science-fantasy and cosmic horror. Will the resilient spirit of humanity survive when confronted with powers beyond their understanding? Or will the spirit of their own planet decide that humanity deserves to be a mere footnote in the history of the universe? That lingering question makes the final scene so much more impactful.
Something to note, and you could ask @Halkeye777 for confimation, but I saw a video that claimed that "Bizzaro" Sephiroth is actually a mistranslation of "Rebirth" Sephiroth, which is given more importance considering the name of the remake; apparently "Rebirth" was written as it would phonetically sound in English (I believe as "Rebirsu") and thus misinterpreted as "Reverse" by the translators, and the connection here seems to be "Bizzaro" versions of Superheroes being the "reverse" of the original leading to the translation team to call Sephiroth's "Rebirth" form "Bizzarro Sephiroth" instead. I wish I could find the original video that talked about this but I can't find it to save my life.
Yes that seems correct. It's リバース・セフィロス - Ribāsu・Sefirosu - Rebirth Sephiroth. I think the name only appears when you activate the "help" and select the enemy during combat or analyse him. PS: to make sure I ask a Japanese speaker. Goole translates it with Reverse Sephiroth too 😅 PPS: OK, according to my friend (native speaker), it can actually mean both "reverse" or "rebirth". Ofc the latter seems more likely in the context. Maybe it's a play with those words too?
Makes sense if taking into account the names of the Jenova pieces fought in the game: Birth, Life, Death and Synthesis. A reborn Sephiroth (or a new merged Sephiroth-Jenova entity).
Whether you think Sephiroth is leading the charge or you think Jenova is in control, you can't deny that her will to seek power is the driving force of everything. Sephiroth is the continuation of the calamity that came from the skies.
Yes agreed, I now think that the idea of the developers was that Sephiroth becomes her "heir" and continues what she once tried to do, becoming the new calamity. But (sadly) I also now think that the developers did not do a great job setting up Sephiroth good enough in the original story for this to become apparent. As a teenager I thought this was intentional and that it was genius, but looking into the game again when I was some decades older, I see it more as flaw of the original, that accidental led to an imo pretty cool interpretation.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yep you're right, Sephiroth was lightning in a bottle. People always say a great villain will elevate a protagonist's status and story, and they had something with him. Though I think in an effort to expand on the "cool factor" of Sephiroth, they might not of thought all the way through enough with some of the lore and details regarding him. Still a cool guy though lol
I know I'm years late to the party, but have you checked to see the meaing to some of the japanese words? I know there are two used as "I" those words neing ore (an informal way to say "I" usually used by men with people they are close with) and watashi (a genderless term that translates to “I”). Sephiroth only uses ore BEFORE he finds out about jenova and uses watashi after. that little change makes a world of differance and supports the jenova puppet master argument. after all,
Thank you! Happy you enjoyed it so much. It was really a passion project for me and a video i wanted to do for a long time, even though these days it's a bit of an exception topic wise on my channel ^^
It would totally be a great hypothesis/theory. I have to show this channels, that got together. Well, Sephiroth was closest to Jenova the closes to possibly used mind corruption and pheromones, like part of the Reunion she called told him. There’s a few novels or books of story telling that are cannon leading to support your theory was there. A Road to a Smile, and I forgot the other 2. Like 👍🏽 your video
Pause at min 30:00 exactly the way that scene is framed with the trees parting like hair revealing a rock face makes it look like a woman, like jenova. Im probably reaching but if Jenova is the puppetmaster this would be perfect foreshadowing given how the attention is on sephiroth right now when in reality it is all Jenovas will pulling the strings.
I did not notice, but good catch. i would assume that's just accidental, but yes it's so weird how many little things just support this theory. If you look for it you will find it I guess.
Now I’m older my head cannon is that it’s all Jenova, and she only appears as sephiroth to manipulate cloud and the team. If she was pursued by other characters let’s say Rufus she would appear as someone he fears / has unfinished business with. The only issue with this is why give him the black materia in the north crater instead of directly to jenova .
I don’t think he’s controlled by her, but is being influenced by her instead. When I was playing Dissidia Opera Omnia there was a scene where Sephiroth seemed to be talking to himself, some his own dialogue that was, supposedly, being replied to by himself was in arrows , so I do think he was in fact talking to Jenova. (They were talking about killing the goddess, Materia. For context about that scene.) I think it’s kinda like the Yugi and Yami situation, from YuGiOh. Jenova is in Sephiroth’s head and when he’s using her body he is in her head.
It's unlikely with later additions to FFVII. Just to avoid misunderstandings: for this video I only look at the question from the perspective of the original game in the universe of the original game.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I am and I still see this a possibility from what I’ve seen with the way he acts. The idea just convinced me even more after seeing that scene.
Yes it is, sorry (as I found out after recording the Japanese is also pronounced with an S sound), I guess it's a thing in my native language to pronounce the C as K.
Heya! Thanks for the awesome, well thought out video! I've always thought that Jenova was the main villain, even back when I first played FF7 in the mid 00's! That was part of what made Sephiroth such a great / tragic villain. I wasn't even aware that most people thought that Sephiroth was the main villain until I researched it a lot later, seems that everyone drew their own conclusion, part of what made the game so great! You mentioned the quote from the Ultimania about Sephiroth being in control, could this perhaps be more of an illusion of control, rather than actual free will, similar to the Saren / Benezia / Sovereign situation? (if you're a Mass Effect fan!) Would love to hear your thoughts!
Thank you, much appreciated! Yes agreed that really made Sephiroth almost a victim, which i found a pretty cool twist, but yes the game was very open for interpretations. Square had to establish one direction though or as I think that was maybe their idea all along and the final game release was just not very clear in this regard. In the Ultimania they explain that Sephiroth was the controlling power though. It's explained that he overpowered Jenova's will and took control. So he is again not a tragic villain. Ofc in FF7 this is not really explained/hinted at and the translation mistakes don't help either. I guess in the original Japanese text there is a "powerful will" mentioned, that could hint at Sephiroth, but all other elements (as explained) don't hint at him. But because Sephiroth is such a popular and powerful villain, I guess it made no sense to establish him differently, even if it would make more sense in the original FF7 and I could also imagine this was also the original idea, just an "imprecise" execution of the story led by accident to the "Jenova Theory". That is at least what I believe after making this video 😅 PS: also sorry for the late answer, wanted to take a moment to write it
Its kinda both.... the ultimania does say sephiroth is the main villain but honestly he still isn't. He does end up controlling jenova's will. That is correct. But hes still a product OF those cells. he does puppet jenova from the livestream, but honestly they both are the villains at the end of the day anyway. Kind of a packaged deal.
To comment on the theory though. Some things to consider. Seph was impaled by the Buster Sword. Ouch. I can see this completely severing his torso..I'm most on board with the hybrid theory, but leaning more towards Sephiroth in control and here's why. So his severed torso and Jenovas head fall into the Mako. I think to survive she fuses with him however he's still the upper half or the mind of the fusion. Gaining her knowledge and power as well as that of the lifestream. I also don't think Jenova would just remain Sephiroth. Why wouldn't she eventually drop the charade?
I THINK I MAY HAVE NOTICED SOMETHING COOL ABOUT JENOVA!! I was watching the cutscenes of crisis core. I was at the part where Sephiroth locks himself in the basement reading research documents going nuts. One of the documents said. “ Jenova CONFIRMED to be an ancient” So not only did everyone (shinra, scientists, Sephiroth) mistakingly think Jenova was an ancient, but somehow one of the scientists “confirmed” it? How do you confirm something that is false? I think this helps ur Jenova puppet master theory and I’ll explain... So as we’ve already understood Jenova has clearly been manipulating most the ppl in the game. Whether it’s consciously and in secret or subconsciously doesn’t matter for this. We both think that she has been manipulating Sephiroth as well. (I also believe that Sephiroth has definitely made useful for himself in a few ways during the game, but again irrelevant) In crisis core when Zack is coming up behind Sephiroth tearing up Jenova Sephiroth says “they’re here mother” referring to zack aka humans. “They took the world from you and we will take it back together and go to the promise land”. Sephiroth is talking to her like she is an ancient. Even though she really isn’t. Oh and b4 he says all this he starts with “I had an epiphany “. So really Sephiroths turn to the dark side was significantly connected to him believing Jenova was an ancient and the world was robbed from her. Who knows what would’ve happened if this weren’t the case. Back to the scientists confirmation. So remember they dug her up and immediately thought she was an ancient. I’m assuming before they found her they were already looking for ancients. It’s very possible that Jenova when found manipulated them all into believing she was an ancient on purpose so they would bring her in and do the experiments they did with her. It’s also possible the “confirmation” never actually happened. They just thought it did because Jenova made it so. Which in turn also leads to Sephiroth being manipulated into thinking Jenova was wronged and wanting to get revenge for her
► Update: my gaming content will be on my 2nd channel: th-cam.com/users/TPhGames
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What are you theories about Final Fantasy VII's story? Did you like the Jenova theory back in the day? What is your opinion on the Remake (please mark spoilers)?
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One part that I always thought was creepy. The scene where Cloud finds Sephiroth after he has spent the night in the mansion reading about the experiments. Sephiroth decides go see Jenova and re-enters the reactor. When he reaches Jenova's chamber, he literally has to ASK Jenova to open the door for him "Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door." The door then swings open *by itself* W T actual F?!😨
I always thought that was creepy myself
I would really want to see an episode where jenova came back to life
Lol but imagine if the door stayed shut.
@@abcd34937 Well that would have been ankward. Sephiroth ständig there like "mom? MOOOM!, common open the door! “
@@brotbrotsen1100with Cartman's voice tone
I think of it this way... Jenova is not a creature with a will in the sense of being a singular being; but rather it is a lifeform that simply carries out its genetic destiny to absorb life from planets. It is frozen in North Crater and essentially stopped, its embodiment of a assimilated Cetra is frozen and mindless. The thing here is, its cells are re-introduced, first to Sephiroth; Who is very much a person with his own will and own mind; but his genetics are of Jenova, so he is destined toward the same genetic destiny - (not unlike having blue eyes, etc). Sephiroth inherits all of Jenova's abilities given time to assimilate within the lifestream, with the other parts of the Jenova genetics (Cloud, etc) being subject to him. This is not so much Sephiroth taking control, but defaulting to control. They are in a sense the same will; With Sephiroth being the ego, and Jenova being the instinct.
Simp for jenussy
With the way you describe it, Jenova bears a resemblance to a certain parasitic apocalypse….
Disagree; jenova definitely has a specific will.
We know this because there is one point in the story where sephiroth's will is in conflict with jenova, and she wins.
It was always in front of us:
Səphīrōth (סְפִירוֹת, medieval Hebrew form of Sephirot; also spelled Sefirot), is a plural noun in Hebrew; the singular is Sephirah (also spelled Sefira). The Sephiroth are described in the Kabbalah as the manifestations of God that allow him to manifest in the physical and metaphysical universes. Sephiroth also means "counting" (of numbers).
Sephiroth is the manifestation of God as well as the concept of "counting". He is just the MAIN avatar of Jenova, her favorite form; while the other "numbered" clones are just vessels of her will.
Oh very interesting. Thank you for the explanation. My knowledge about Hebrew is sadly very limited. it seems like a very interesting language. Yes that makes sense in this context. Sephiroth is connected to the number 10, isn't it?
@@ThePhilosophersGames Well yes, although that starts to get very metaphysical. The Sephiroth (singular Sephira) are the 10 "concepts" or emanations that form everything: they come from God and are God. Some other numbers are important for Jewish kabbalah, like 49. Stay with me here: In Jewish kabbalah "Malkuth" (you could pronounce it Marco) is the 10th and closest to men Sephira, the revelation of the Plan of God. Also in the sub-divided sephira Count of the Omer (the 49 days of Seven Weeks of the Exodus), the last and 49th day is referred as "Malkuth inside Malkuth". It seems the creators of this game were big enthusiasts of Jewish esoteric texts SINCE SPOILERS:
Marco, tattooed with the 49 number, takes the form of Sephiroth in the Shinra building Cosmo-video thing, revealing the Meteor plan. And there are many other things from Jewish culture and myth of you analyze them, like the exodus-reunion to a Promised Land, the angelic wings... even the name JENOVA is suspiciously close to JEHOVAH.
Japanese are good at taking in and researching western religions. It's all over anime
@@arklaed
I have been doing some light research into Kabbalah due to my interests in the direction of this game. I am very much interested in any knowledge you would be willing to share.
Pretty interesting stuff about Sephiroth. I recently learned that ra in japanese means from. Then thought about Cetra. Ceto (even though it's pronounced Keto) is a goddess born from Pontus and "Gaia." Setra sounds better than Ketra IMO, so let's go with that. Cetra could have been a name given to the ancients meaning "from the goddess of gaia" which would be Minerva?
Shin in japanese can mean many things but as a name it means true or real. Shinra would mean "from that is real/true" which to me kinda makes sense. Considering their affinity for the ancients and trying to simulate their power by using mako reactors to create materia.
Hachiman, also known as Hachiman-*shin* is the Japanese god of war and the protector of Japan and it's people. Shinra is a syndicate of war and definitely looked up to as the protectors of Midgar and it's people.
This could be pretty far fetched but it was something fun to get my mind of the remake confusion.
Personally, I think that there is a multi-generational fight going on, that manifests in Sephiroth.
Jenova vs. Cetra (evil spirit energy vs. good spirit energy)
Hojo vs. Gast (bad science vs. good science)
Sephiroth vs. Aerith (a "hybrid" of Jenova and bad science vs. a "hybrid" of Cetra and good science)
I always thought of Jenova is like the alien from The Thing a creepy abomination with no defined form that can shape shift into anyone and yet I find the idea of Jenova even more terrifying than The Thing since it can mess with your mind as well.
Jenova set everything in the game in motion right up to Shinra sucking the planet dry with reactors. Shinra are already clearly enacting Jenova’s ultimate goal of parasitically destroying the environment. Early in the game, people talk about how Shinra were originally just a weapons manufacturer for local militias. As time when on they attained enough power to be the de facto world government. Jenova had to have influenced a former president of the company’s mind to give him the idea to harvest mako.
FF7 is basically John Carpenter's The Thing meets Final Fantasy.
Imo Sephiroth was his own person until he got a little to close to Jenova. It was then that the dormant Jenova cells became active. I believe he begins being influenced by Jenova at this point. This leads the him naturally building an instinctual drive towards "becoming one with the planet". Which is obviously Jenova's instinct to assimilate every lifeforms other than itself.
Then Sephiroth is thrown into the lifestream along with Jenova's head. Normally you'd think Jenova is a normal symbiotic organism, but I believe since it has "intelligence" then it must also have a lifeform that is the head honcho. The instinct is always there but the control must still from the will of one lifeform. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to keep intelligence and be a true symbiotic lifeform.
Okay so Sephiroth falls in the lifestream with the head of Jenova which must the original intelligence of Jenova. Now here the either fused, fought, or the most likely was the head Jenova was destroyed by planet while in the lifestream because it was a foreign organism. This leads to Sephiroth's personality becoming the head honcho while still keeping its instincts for symbiosis.
I love this. It makes so much sense that Sephiroth's desire for dominion over the planet is more about Jenova shaping his will. Finally in Nibelheim he succumbs to Jenova and seeks her out - the first act of Hojo's reunion theory is Sephiroth going to Jenova and taking her.
I thought that Sephiroth made that clear in Advent Children? Something about turning the planet into a means of traveling the cosmos. Humans have no need to do that but an intergalactic planet consuming alien sure would.
Dunno if this comment will ever be seen, but I just rewatched advent children and this theory video was suggested to me. That Movie really enforces just how powerful Jenova is, it totally focuses on "Mother" calling the villains "Larval forms of Sephiroth". In Remake Aerith calls Jenova Dreamweaver, "The Source of Everything". I think she was being very literal as it comes to our narrative going forward. Why did Sephiroth suddenly go crazy in close proximity to Jenova? Why do every single scientist who worked with Jenova cells lose their shit, murder each other, and manipulate the World specifically so that Jenova can complete her original objective? It's all about her, Period.
Yes for sure there are also some "Jenova is powerful" hints, but "officially" Sephiroth takes over, which is (as I tried to explain with this video) not really implied by the original, game esp. if you play the international versions of the game.
@@ThePhilosophersGames It was retconned for marketing purposes. I think the writers at Square are all perfectly aware what the original intent was, but upper executives at the company forced an official retcon (disguised as, “oh no, you just didn’t get it”) after market research showed how recognizable and iconic Sephiroth’s character design was to gamers. Keeping the original villain as a shape-shifting esoteric space parasite wouldn’t have any marketability.
The thing is sephiroth being the mastermind theory,IF he would have gotten jenova's memories wouldn't he have later learned that she wasn't his real mother AN WHAT her actually goal was.
It just make so much since on so many different levels THAT JENOVA is the master mind.
She may not have been able to control sephiroth BEFORE he went crazy,but the moment the Nihbliem incident happen she could have been able to take control of his mind.
Since he was injected with jenova cells in the womb,
he has her blood
she is immortal,
BUT he's the master mind?
Yeah he COULD possibly be helping,but I doubt in control.
I also think since she has the ability to turn into people an make illusions. She is probably making it seem like sephiroth is doing all the work. But we see the REAL sephiroth stuck in mako.
We also know that Jenova was going to get someone else to mind control AN call on meteor for her,which could be the part where Sephiroth helps her. OR even than that could be her controlling him.
I think there is something child-like (in a good way) about the urge to explore and find out how the world really works. I might be that which makes it so that children love good stories and want to hear them again and again if there is something to be understood from it. I recall my own childhood where I was obsessed with books, games or movies which gave you a story to think about. I never really got around to play through Final Fantasy VII, but I got to understand where your passion comes from. You kept that drive to immerge deeply into stories like LotR and others. Thank you for taking us with you
Agreed. And I guess I preserved something of this even as an adult ^^ Happy you liked it and that it worked out sharing my passion :)
I always say you gotta separate the waters in fictional stories, there is always something, at least in the good ones, to be learned from about our past and reality itself, not just a moral message. People think names and plots comes from the creator's mind, that is bs, they always take something out of ancient history, cultures and persons who were soo ancient that we barely know or care about so we took it as an original, but in truth there is barely something original from any story no matter how good and well written you think it is, in fact we probably like it because it is related to us, it connects us with the firgotten past and it fuels our subconscious need for enlightment that is rooted within our very dna, not because they look beautiful, sound beautiful and whatever, because many other stories have done the same and it just doesn't click unless you are easily biased and manipulated, you just don't eat whatever pointless garbage you are feed in, if there is something of value is because it is real!.
I absolutely love all these theories delving into the true lore of one of my favorite games out there, and the way you presented the info and evidence was really well done! :3
Here’s what I personally always believed: Seph is indeed under the control of Jenova. After he began to question his identity and true purpose, his mind was weakened and vulnerable. Jenova, although long dead, was able to live on through the cells in her victims. She took the confusion and hints of malice that were building in his mind and completely bent them to her will, turning him into his own kind of monster (very poetic as that’s what he’s always feared of becoming)
Seph refers to her as “Mother” and suddenly gains this motivation to “return” the Planet to her - something that wouldn’t even benefit him in the end. Why would he give up this life he had? He had humanity and a good heart long before, as shown in CC. The fact that despite all the torment Hojo put him through as a child, he was able to maintain kind integrity really shows how strong-willed he is. I just could never see Sephiroth stooping to a point of harming others and the Planet for his own purposes after possessing such good morals. Speaking of which, is just so happens that his goals of Meteor and wounding the Planet have the same planetary destruction motivation that Jenova had thousands of thousands of years ago? :3
Put in simply, in my perspective, Sephiroth was nothing more than Jenova’s favored vessel. As powerful as a warrior he may have been, Sephiroth objectively was just an enhanced human at the end of the day. Would he *really* have the power to control some cosmic monster known for eradicating entire species? Or was he just the puppet?
The best part about this game is all the room you have to decide your own interpretation. If you love Sephiroth’s character because you believe him to be this unstoppable force of evil, then you would go with the Seph theory. If you would rather see him as completely innocent, then the Jenova theory is for you. Personally, the idea of the main villain of the franchise not being so one-note and leaving room for redemption if he was to be freed from it all is an approach I would love to see in the future :3
I was 13 when i played the game (the german version). I played it again 2018 on Steam. For me Sephiroth always felt like he was a victim and his mind got shattered by finding out the truth. Thats when he went into full soziopath mode but got stopped by cloud.
Jenova however is a much more convincing antagonist because she/it has the lovecraftian unknown/cosmic horror touch on her/it. So naturally her intellect should be far superior to that of the humans she faces. Sephiroth is to her like darth maul to palpatine if that makes sense. He is a tool, a weapon and expandable.
I agree to the Jenova Theorie.
That lore that got added later was just capitalizing on the fact that Sephiroth became basicly pop culture.
Sounds familiar ^^ I can't agree more. I se him as a victim too (I think the Jenova Theory makes his character very tragic). But yes you are right, I can imagine it has to do with Sephiroth's popularity, that he became so present in e.g. the Sequels.
I always thought because sephiroth had jenova cells when he was in the womb jenova wanted to transfer herself over to him and called out to him when he was in the reactor with cloud, to reunite her cells with his hence the reunion, I always thought of jenova as a parasite that came down from earth and latched itself onto a female cetra and that explained why it looked like a girl with monstrous growths all over it, the reunion eventually happens and sephiroph changes form to fully turn into a jenova sephiroth
Sephiroth is definitely a tragic hero
We'll learn more in the remake trilogy which this guy conveniently ignored and ignored the fact the English version of the OG game had a bad translation 😂
The sword left behind in the shinra building can just be a piece of jenovas body since she can create illusions
Sephiroth has always been and will always be THE avatar and physical manifestation of Jenova. He fell into the lifestream with her head. It’s not that much of a stretch to say that they are one and the same. Sephiroths power we see in the remake is pretty much the type of power that a pseudo human jenova would have. Hopefully we get a boss battle like that in the future parts of the remake to lay her to rest once and for all.
This is why I strongly believe Jenova PRIME will be the final boss of the third game.
Another thing to note is the fact that Jenova probably needed Sephiroth to use so she could use the Black Materia. I'm pretty sure to use materia you'd have to be a resident of the planet because materia itself is just the crystallization of the of planet and Cetra knowledge. It'd make sense for Jenova to keep Sephiroth alive just so she could use magic which is the power of the planet. It just make sense for Jenova to not be able to use it imo.
Jenova was posing as Sephiroth the whole nine yards all the while Sephiroth's body was in the North Crater. I been figured that out. The real Sephiroth was entrapped in a crystal like his real mother Lucrecia.
This was very enjoyable to watch/listen to! Definitely subscribing.
I wanted to chime in on Sephiroth's motives because I've been thinking a lot about his treatment from the world around him.
Sephiroth was a super-soldier who was created for the sake of research and weaponry. He'd been lied to by his father about his mother, and the company that basically raised him had, in the long run, controlled him to do their bidding.
(That being Killing in the Wutai war, encouraging young boys all over to enlist in soldier, and much more)
But, Sephiroth's frustration in Nibelheim didn't stem alone from his groundbreaking epiphany, it came from a want to finally have control over his own life. There were many times in Crisis Core where he and Zack would wonder 'who they were fighting for'. I could imagine this thought constantly ran in mind as he thought about his true origins.
Wanting to control the world (or become God) was a step above what Shinra had posed itself to be; a governing god that used it's monopoly on Mako for world domination.
Ironically, however, the last person that controlled him (in my opinion) was Jenova. Because the appearance she wears in battle is much different than what she shows Sephiroth while being intubated. She must have changed it to make Sephiroth think that she resembled him. Sephiroth hasn't the slightest clue of Lucrecia (his birth giver), so Jenova had to have been calling him to the room. She took advantage of his loss of sanity/sleep and tried to get him to set her free.
After he had lost to Cloud, I think he ended up doing a lot of thinking in the lifestream. And that's when he stepped over Jenova, to then employ his new plan.
Thank you, happy you found my video interesting :) I guess in a way Sephiroth has a similar identity loss as Cloud, but Cloud handles it better. Maybe because Cloud is not alone and has good friends (esp. Tifa), who help him. In this regard it's plausible to install Sephiroth as something like an antithesis to Cloud. Cloud wants to be a normal human being, the Cloud from the past, not a constructed Clone. Sephiroth embraces what he is and wants to expand on it. I still think that this makes most sense, when he also had a "friend" who pushed him there, which imo is Jenova. But still I think the game does not establish Sephiroth's intention well enough for this step by its own. He thinks he's a Cetra, so what? He could have become anti Shinra eco terrorist similar to Avalanche. But he spreads his hate towards all humans. He does not even try to be a Cetra, but does the exact opposite (hurting the planet). So maybe he learns later that Jenova and so him too was not a Cetra. Maybe this is where his true madness would begin (he learns in teh life stream). But the game never explores this part and is very vague about all of it, to the point that with the translation mistakes one could think he is also just a puppet and this seems totally plausible too, if you ignore the later publications of Square.
I also hate the idea of Sephiroth and Jenova surviving at the end, because that would mean the original game lied to us. Bugenhagen can hear the planet to some degree too (not sure why he can, but it's implied multiple times) and seems like a reliable source (the game establishes him as one). Everything bad is removed, maybe even humanity and 500 years later it's not clear hat happened. Sephiroth is however not present.
I always thought Jenova just took over Sephiroths mind. He was like a regular guy in the flashback then all of a sudden he was crazy
This is an old video, so I don't know if you check comments, but a couple things worth noting:
1) Inspiration for the villain of FFVII, according to Kitase, originally came from Jaws, and was supposed to be eerie/lurk in the shadows and not appear until later, so really cool scenes like the assassination of Shinra became part of this. However, because Sephiroth became so iconic and intrinsically tied to FFVII as a brand, he became promoted and widely used so much in compilation content, so he loses that element in much of the expanded content including Remake.
2) The development and story of VII changed radically when the mother of original FF creator Sakaguchi died durinf development. They used the story to talk more about permanence/pointlessness of death. As a result, it's hard to say if other elements and themes changed halfway through. Also Sakaguchi left Square well before the release of FFVII Ultimania, which reveals that Sephiroth being the puppet master is cannon. Nomura has been given director control of much of the compilation as well, and since he was the character designer and not director or a writer of the original game, it's hard to say if creative interpretations remain consistent.
As such, I believe it's very possible with the combination of staff changes and the rise of Sephiroth's popularity as a brand that Jenova was supposed to be the original mastermind and the retcon of the Ultimania and extended VII content upgraded Sephiroth's role to capitalize on his popularity. Sephiroth as mastermind sells more merch is the most cynical take, I suppose.
There are many views of, who is in control and why, but in the end Jenova remains the main Antagonist, no matter if she was controlled or not nothing of this conflict with the planet, would exist without her, but maybe the Shinra company as villains, without her Meteor would not be possible at all.
And the dream sequences showed Jenova was still active as a puppeteer at one point, until later Sephiroth might take over, but a very changed Sephiroth who was doing what Jenova planned for thousands of years. So again, Jenova might be absorbing not only bodies, but also assimilate the personalities or the personalities assimilate Jenova and she(It) allows it, if this means everyone is on the same side, summon meteor for godhood(just drink the energy grow stronger and move on to the next planet, basicly)
A little bit like Larvos in Chrono Trigger, if you think about it. That alien did not have much of a personality either, had no use for cell infections, but was the Meteor all by himself. :D
I prefer to think of it this way; Jenova isn't quite so much 'the Puppetmaster'; more accurately, she's the Influencer. Sephiroth is at least partially A puppetmaster, but his actions are guided by the influence of Jenova's own will.
Essentially, everything Sephiroth is doing, he THINKS is basically all him, but really, he's incredibly susceptible to Jenova's influence.
The way I see it is that Jenova doesn't have a mind that operates like a human's does; given her metamorphic nature and initial behavior among the Cetra, I believe she replicates what's in a person's mind in order to lure them in for the kill, like a Siren, or some kind of animal that uses the voices of loved ones to lure in prey. Jenova is more animal-like, in that her MO is a lot more straightforward.
This means that she plays off of whatever Sephiroth thinks or wants in order to motivate him toward her ultimate goal [basically to absorb all of Gaia's energy] So if he thinks his purpose is to become a deity and cleanse the planet of it's filthy inhabitants; Jenova will play into that motivation, so long as it achieves her end goal.
[SIDE NOTE: I like to think that Seph's motivations are rooted in his disgust for the whole of humanity, first motivated by Shinra grooming him to be an ultimate soldier and giving him some reason to fight anyone who isn't Shinra on their behalf, and solidified after he realizes the very people he thought he could trust had lied to him and were even more evil. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for it, if any, but it makes sense to me]
The reason she does this is because, on some level, she knows she needs a stronger, conscious mind to achieve this massive goal, which is why she keeps Sephiroth's mind intact, even through the Lifestream.
What I believe happened in the Lifestream is that Sephiroth only survived because he went down with a piece of Jenova [and specifically her head, no less] and the two must have mentally fused, somehow, at least become mentally permanently attached to each other.
In other words; Sephiroth is the brains and the mouth, but Jenova is that voice in the back of his head egging him on and pointing him in the direction she best prefers, and she keeps him alive and functioning purely because he serves as a vehicles for carrying out her goal
This is the way I've always thought about it. Seph all the way to the end thinks he's the big bad only for the calamity to show up again in a different person and when asked says something like "No my dear, you all were always on strings."
The game confirms it's all Sephiroth though. Sephiroth is motivated to complete similar goals as Jenova because it's now his nature too.
Excellent video. I absolutely loved the background you gave on your first playthrough of ff7 and how you found the alternative theories, etc. It really took me back.
Thank you, much appreciated ^^ Yes it really takes you back. Were fantastic times. It's also a very special game for me that had a lot of influence on me I would say (same with Deus Ex from 2000).
Ya, you've got me replaying deus ex for the first time since the game was still new
haha awesome ^^ How was it replaying it after so many years?
@@ThePhilosophersGames I am surprised at how much of the game I'd forgotten completely. It still holds up, though! Plays much better than I expected in 2024.
32:43 I'm laughing over the idea of Cloud looking up at Sephiroth, his old 'war buddy' and shouting:
" Lieutenant Sephiroth, you ain't got no legs!"
😂
I always just liked the idea that hojo was acting to 'help' his son in his own perverse way
"Atta boy, are you killing all humans son??"
hojo is the most misunderstood character in the whole game, no one questions why hojo is crazy to begin with, hojo injected jenova cells into his own body tricking lucrecia to have sex with him to see what would spawn in a child, the result was sephiroth, hojo stopped having free will the moment he injected himself with jenova cells, behind the scenes he was helping jenova gain strength over the planet and helped sephiroth achieve his goals
I really admire your work. The final few minutes of this particular video (musing on the validity of authorial intent vs reader interpretation) was particularly well said. Bravo!
Thank you :) Yes this was really a passion project for me that I wanted to realize for years. Happy you liked it!
I think sephiroth meeting jenova in nibelheim triggered some kind of awakening within his cells and initially jenova manipulate sephiroth to take her head with him so that she could manifest herself again with sephiroth body as a physical host but jenova realized that sephiroth strong will was going to carry out her wish better than herself therefore she decide to completely submit to his will. That is why sephiroth is able to shapeshift himself throughout his clones and that the jenova reunion is centered around him now and not jenova herself.
I think the Reuinion could be around Jenova (too), because Jenova's head is at the North Crater too.
We don't have much (in regards of the "strong will") beyond a claim of Cloud (if we looked through the translation mistake) and how would he know. Ofc it is possible that his will power helps him withstand Jenova, but as said considering how much detail and complexity we get in some areas, this explanation is clearly lacking. But it's not only withstanding, it's controlling Jenova? Why? A fusion between Jenova and Sephiroth makes much more sense, because in this case they don't have to "fight". But as shown in the video, ignoring the correct translation of some passages, the game strongly hints at the Jenova theory.
I fully believe the Jenova theory. What I believe happened, is that a ton of people misinterpreted the game and thought that Sephiroth was the main villain, and so Sephiroth became a super popular character. Due to this popularity, FF7 was retconned to have him as the main villain, and that's what they've gone with in sequels, side media like Kingdom Hearts, and the Ultimania Omega. Jenova makes too much sense for it to be ignored, and in a way, she really was the puppet master all along, making even the audience believe that she could be ignored in favour of her favourite puppet and his reputations and power, Sephiroth.
It would be really helpful to have a side quest to see what really happened when Jenova came down…that’d be fantastic!
Great video, I always thought of Jenova as the main antagonist of the game. Most people I've talked to think it's Sephiroth. I always saw Sephiroth as a broken and vulnerable man, similar to Cloud in many ways, but unlike Cloud he gives in to Jenova and begins enacting her will. All of Sephiroth's decisions in the game serve to progress Jenova's end-goal for the planet, like a puppet being played. I'm still very hesitant about all the changes made so far in FF7R, but it's exciting to think that in this new timeline, maybe Sephiroth actually has managed to break free from Jenova's control and is actually trying to help Cloud like he claims. It would make for the greatest redemption arc of all time.
Was 8 years old when I first played this, even then I knew it was something special. Hope you're enjoying the Remake! Awesome vid, getting stuck into watching.
Yes good old time ^^ It's a really special game for me personally too. So I'm very happy that I could make this video. Yes curious how I will like the remake. I fear I won't like it this much, but we will see. I fear the story changes.
I am of the belief that Sephiroth’s Masamune is actually summon materia, and it summons… the katana. Sephiroth has shown to conjure up the sword at any moment, like in Advent Children, and in the remake the scene where he stabs President Shinra and Barret, the sword dissipated after each stabbing. That is why the sword is left behind on the president’s body, because he can just resummon it later. Recently in the Ever Crisis trailer featuring young Sephiroth, it seems his sword is different when he was younger. It could be that this is before the time he acquired the Masamune, or it’s possible this is the earlier form of that summoned sword. Regardless, this is an important detail that is probably elaborated upon in that game.
To be fair: you can't use REMAKE scenes to justify canon of the original because they take place in separate stories
in every ff7 adaptation his sword is the same the only thing that really chances is the handle color and sometimes the design of the handle the blade is mostly the same save gameplay model vs cutscene differences. The masamune is not summon nor a materia it is a physical weapon and also given that materia like added effect can change the property of weapons are armor it’s more relistic he just has the size changing spell for mini placed on the weapon. Even then the sword isn’t left in his body for ever as to be fair sephiroth is just using jenova and the many bodies made from its cells to travel around he probably picked it up and we know this given that when he killed one of the large snakes around the chocobo farm he did use masamue nor leave it behind but instead in pale it on a large stake most likely an actual tree.or part of it. And even in the remake it just summons and resummons it to be far given that he died with his weapon it’s probably just tied to his soul. Saying it’s a summon is a really big stretch even for what’s just a “theory”
Virus = Jenova Cell , I still think Sephiroth overwhelmed the cells through his will .
By the end and into AC, yes. I believe that over the years, while trapped with Jenova's head, I believe he gradually became a distinct being rather than a puppet. If you remember, Bizarro Sephiroth resembled a demonic version of Sephiroth that had Jenova pulling his strings. However in becoming Seifer Sephiroth he broke free of his "strings" and became the main consciousness behind the Jenova Cells. Especially by AC where he seemed less obsessed with his "Mother" and more motivated by his own goals.
In Remake I believe the versions of the Jenova controlled Sephiroth and the future Sephiroth who regained his sense of self and has separate goals in the story.
@@dragoonmk4203I feel AC contradicts way too much to even consider that
His clones are still very obsessed with mother and his goals were ultimately the same. He didn't change. And it was still all about Jenova cells.
AC couldn't even get summon materia right..... which is red. Idk how you gonna summon with blue all materia
@@delsingray5923 He still refers to her as Mother, but he clearly had more of a sense of self past being a Jenova puppet. To me it felt less like Jenova using Sephiroth's memories to affect the world and more like Sephiroth using Jenova to further his goals. And I think the current Sephiroth has completely taken the metaphorical wheel.
The part where Sephiroth appears in the forest i always believed he was speaking to Cloud when he says the girl will be a problem as he/Jenova were already overwhelming Clouds mind, thats how they almost brainwashed Cloud into cutting down Aerith.
Aerith probably realized at the Temple event that Cloud's mind was compromissed and that he'd try to stop her from using the white materia if she allowed the group to tag along.
What i gather from all the info is that Jenova doesn't have a personality but is driven by the instinct to overtake worlds, consume its resources, move to the next host.
In the game its described how she almost wiped out the cetra, not by the use of force but subterfuge. She kind of reminds me of the Thing from another world, a mish mash of matter that assumes forms familiar to humans to decieve and prey on them. It has no personality, its drive is to consume.
It is obvious that she controls Sephiroth at Nibelheim as Sephiroth is also shown suffering from migraines similar to Cloud when Cloud is seeing illusions or is actively being controled.
JENOVA reminds me of LAVOS from Chrono Trigger
Brilliant work, if I dare say so myself. I actually remember coming to similar conclusions when I played the game back in the 90s. It never made much sense to me that Sephiroth was the main villain. I actually always saw him more of a tragic villain similar to Darth Vader who was at every part of his life used by others for their own means. Even his creation and birth was not that out of love, but one of experimentation and devious plans to make a super soldier. I always interpreted the story as Jenova influencing him, driving him mad and then using him for her own means. I also never saw true Sephiroth as being evil. It's only once he meets Jenova that he goes crazy. That makes him more of a fallen hero than a villian. And since Jenova is by nature a shapeshifter and good at manipulation, she just took Sephiroth's form to use Cloud, confuse her enemies and hide her true identity. After all, the enemy you don't know and don't understand has a tactical advantage over you, and this is exactly what she has done in the past when she attacked the Cetra.
Well done, I highly enjoyed this video. You argue your point convincingly, and I think the case can be made that the hero (not necessarily the protagonist) of FFVII is Aeris (I'm sticking with the misspelling after 25 years) and the villain (again, not necessarily the antagonist) is indeed Jenova. As was the case before the events of the story unfolded, the struggle FFVII portrays is simply dualistic, the Cetra (the Planet capital 'P', Nature capital 'N', Aeris i.e. 'The Good') versus an invading force (Jenova, 'The Calamity', the unnatural, i.e. 'Evil'); the whole plot is reducible, not in a bad way, to the struggle between the Ancients and the Calamity. That struggle ultimately took the form of Cloud & Co, Aeris' (that is, the Cetra's) Champions, versus Sephiroth, Jenova's planetary vehicle. I must admit, given the backstory's and character's strong Abrahamic basis, I have some sympathy for the idea that, like the God of the New Testament, Jenova, at one point called, as you note, 'Synthesis', and Sephiroth were, or became, consubstantial; that Sephiroth, poisoned by Jenova's genetics in utero, retained a human(oid) form but was, developmentally, genetically, *substantially*, alien, to the extent that Sephiroth and Jenova were independent persons of the same metaphysical being, which might explain why it's so hard to tell where Jenova ends and Sephiroth begins. Also, total sidebar, has anyone else noticed Safer Sephiroth's similarity to a Seraphim?
At only 4 minutes in, Yes.... I've thought this was very clearly stated by the game.... that jenova is the enemy.
Sephiroth is not the pilot; his "mother" is the pilot.
Ever since he went mad on Nibelheim after discovering the truth of his origin, and after cloud defeated him at the reactor, he's been non compus mentus - if even alive at all - in a chunk of materia... which JENOVA - not the life stream - pulled to the north crater for keeping in stasis until the black materia was brought to him... that's the first time in the game that sephiroth awakens... and even then, jenova is still in the pilot's seat.
I totally buy into this theory. Just based on the literary placement of Jenova throughout the game: She's always brought up in a deeply mysterious way, mostly in the story-focused moments when there's a break in gameplay (Story at Kalm, Ifalna's videos, etc.).
Personally, I felt Jenova was confusing the first time I played, because most of the scenes that give clues to her purpose and effect on the active adventure take place in a handful of brief, complicated, distracted scenes that happen before we're told any of the history and facts of Jenova. So she just has this underlying presence of something evil. It's not until the second time playing through that she made any sense
The way we're first introduced to Jenova... just as we're caught up trying to learn the Shinra Executives' names and plots, we come to this one room, with this science chamber sitting VERY CONSPICUOUSLY to the side with this intriguing purple light.
- I even remember exactly how I felt about it 20 years ago - I wanted to know so badly what was in there that it was making me anxious. It wasn't the kind of feeling you get when you think you found a cool item. No, I wanted it to be part of the story, in some deep way (and this was before all the weird science stuff even came into the story).
I just can't exaggerate how BOLD that purple light science chamber was. I remember I was SO WORRIED that it might just be part of the background scenery.
- It was such an OCD Relief when Cloud checks it out. There was something unique about that scene of seeing Jenova- like you have no clue what that thing is, but they show it in detail as if you're supposed to understand. It's espcially interesting that Barrett points out that it has now head - I couldn't even recognize that it was a Body at all. After Barrett says this we don't get to re-examine... Later on when we see Jenova in the Niberlheim reactor cutscene, we focus in on it's weird Sunglass wearing Female Face, and by that point the story is so crazy that I wasn't thinking about her Headless image... Not until I replayed the game, remembering that Barrett pointed out her not having a head, was I able to recognize that it was the same body that we see with a head in the Nibelheim scene...
-Jenova is presented through the entire game in a way that hides her in plain sight, right at the center of all the Calamity, and even by the end of the game, her existence remains less than clear. This is what makes FF7 so replayable, it has a very shrouded, symbolic, cerebral narration that makes the plot seem completely different each time, especially in the context of who's the Antagonist (Sephiroth, Shinra, Meteor, Jenova, Hugo, Materia...)
I remember the first time seeing jenova in the shinra headquarters. Freaked me the fuck out, i didn't touch the game for a week lol. I actually recognized it as a headless body because of the tits and the weird eyeball on it. Creepy mf.
Not convinced by the Ultimania people talk about. Written a while after the game was released and aims to appease Sephiroth fans. I think the reunion theory pretty much tells us the jenova cells are manipulating him, especially with his concentration of cells. It's a tale of manipulation.
Nice vid, I always play the game considering Jenova is behind all of this. It is way more coherent and interesting in many many ways. Not everything can be explained, but the creation of the game itself was a bit chaotic and we can only fill the gaps with our own imagination. This is also what makes this game so great ^^
Thank you :) Yes, I fully agree, you need to fill the gaps with your imagination and own interpretation. For me Jenova as main antagonist is much more interesting too.
I like the whole explanation of the relation of Sephiroth's cocoon to his forms at the end + Jenova Synthesis. As a kid, i overlooked what "synthesis" means, and it clicked as an adult that they fused for real and jaw dropped. Now why was only half of Sephiroth's body preserved in the cocoon, is the question?
The original game jenova was definitely in control, she/it even does what ifalna says and makes herself look like the inhabitants of the planet and uses sephiroth as her host, you could even say sephiroths 'will' is a result of being exposed so early to jenova cells, I mean would he have the will if he hadn't had any exposure to jenova cells? Because I believe it's all jenovas tactic, hojo and lucrecia's son would have been nothing like sephiroth without jenova, Its like they created jenova's chosen one for her, a human looking character already exposed to jenovas cells, who is a hero to people.
Another point, why would sephiroth be able to 'outwill' basically a God?,
For all we know jenova has done this for millennia, but sephiroth cant basically control her? Why when the only superhuman in him is caused by jenova cells in the first place, jenova is using sephiroth as a puppet.
The best fact is jenovas that good at her natural cycle that even fans are believing that its sephiroth, that's exactly what her tactics are, especially a very strong human who is basically 75% jenova already.
Sephiroth was pushed after his cult status rocketed. But I believe in my head that my explanation is the original story.
Yes I agreed. Could be possible that they "buffed" Sephiroth in the lore (they for sure did it to some degree), but I also think it might be possible that they wanted Sephiroth in control and just messed up here and there.
That's what's great about these old classics, it's open to your imagination, still debating it after all this time.
Even tho I never played FF7 I really enjoyed the video. This story is somehow mesmerising, and I fear a warning for our future.
Happy to hear. I'm quite curious how people see this video, without knowing the game. I tried to explain everything, but no clue if I succeeded. Yes it's interesting how up-to-date the game is topic wise. It features ecological damages to the planet, a "virus", power of monopoly, corruption, etc
@@ThePhilosophersGames Alien and corporate AI threats also I believe.
I knew most charracters from pop culture so video wasn't impossible to follow altho not super easy.
@@Bramandin take time to either play ,or watch a play through. Trust me , you’ll fall in love
It's always fun to hear someone talk about something they're passionate about, the only thing I would add with my incredibly limited experience in the world of Final Fantasy 7 is it makes sense to believe that sephiroth was powerful enough to control Genova just because in all games and movies heroes and villains don't necessarily have plausible sources for their power and their will. One of the things that makes something most exciting in a storyline is when someone who doesn't seem to be capable of doing something does it just because they want to badly enough. I think it's in stark contrast with how reality works and that's why people like it so much. In truth we are limited beings who have been given boundaries which we cannot cross and I believe that the real source of power in our lives is the God who created us. A lot of good popular stories show people escaping from that and doing great things on their own or with their friends help. I think people crave this level of power and control over their own destinies and gravitate towards those storylines for that escape but I might be breaking it down way too philosophically XD it's a relatively well written story which synergizes extremely well with what people want from a story. God bless you and thank you for a very entertaining and insightful video
My favorite theory is based on a tiny detail most people forget about Jenova and I'm glad the video mentioned: it's a virus. Dr. Gast discusses it with Ifalna, Aerith's mother. It's not an alien organism with some sort of consciousness. It just wants to infect, reproduce and consume everything. Shinra's scientific research discovered properties such as enhanced strength and magic capacity using the cells of what they thought was a Cetra (the pronunciation is not "Ketra" by the way, it's Cetra with a soft c, as it was Setora in Japanese). In reality though, it was the frozen remains of Jenova. In the experiment that led to Sephiroth, when Jenova cells were injected directly in the pregnant uterus of Lucretia, both human and Jenova became one, granting Sephiroth all his abilities but now with a human consciousness to guide it. The Jenova aspect in Sephiroth's body remained dormant until the Nibelheim incident, and from then on Sephiroth was reborn as the will of his "mother". Not a puppet of it but its own mind and master. Finally, in human terms, consume everything meant absorbing all the Lifestream of the Planet. It's not my theory, I read it somewhere long ago and loved it and stuck with me. It also resonates with the more subdued religious themes. Now, if some of you notice similarities between that and Parasite Eve, well both PE and FFVII were basically products of the same brainstorm of ideas Square had in the mid 90s (along with Xenogears in the religious, mental breakdowns and freudian stuff).
Yes the virus theory is also an interesting one and very unique. It has some foundation too, but I think there are also some arguments against it I guess (e.g. the scientists (Lucracia, Hojo, Gast) never call it a virus). It could explain though how Sephiroth got Jenova's abilities.
Pronunciation-wise, yes you are right (I even looked up the Japanese word for Cetra while making the video), I think my tendency to say "Ketra" comes from me being German, where C is often pronounced as K; it's a bit inconsistent. I also checked some other FFVII videos on YT and usually there people said "Ketra" (native speakers). But now that I think about it: is there actually any English word that starts with the letter C and E (ceramic, certain) that have a C pronounced as K? Ofc words starting with CA do, like "can", "cannon", etc. I write it down into the mistakes section in the description and now I know for the future, thanks for the hint ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames English is not my native language as well, but there are some words with "c" and "e" that are pronounced with a "k" sound, such as celtic. Can't think of many though
Yes, and even for Celtic both pronunciations are viable (according to the Cambridge dictionary). Quite interesting ^^
Totally agree with you. Good job, nice work. Jenova was the real enemy and unfortunately Holy choose to save Gaia, not humans.
Thank you ^^
Jenova is a shapeshifter alien. It is also a virus carried through its host body, hence the mako tanks in the shinra mansion assisting in the creation of SOLDIERs, and how cloud is "related" to sephiroth via Jenova's injected cells. Jenova utilises the forms of different people which is why you don't see the real sephiroth until far into the game. That's my take on it anyway 🙂 it's complex stuff but interesting 🙂
So the problem that I have with both the Sephiroth & Hybrid theories is that, as you pointed out, the "Jenoroth" clone didn't recognize Cloud while in Junon.
If Sephiroth was in control >at all
I don't perfectly remember the prison scene but couldn't it just be that the power went down during the rampage or some guards tried to get into the cell to flee
You once told me you named this channel ThePhilosophersGames to be a channel about games, not Lord of the Rings.
I’m glad you found the time to chase that goal. Really fantastic content with a very interesting perspective and well researched points.
I look forward to the next one!
Yes I remember ^^ From time to time I love making game related videos and this one was a passion project (had the idea probably over a year ago). It's a nice change here and then, even though I also love making LotR content. The film/book differences and references series is really fun to make too. The last FF7 video performed really well, so I hope this one does too. So far I'm happy with it. Maybe I make a little review for the Remake too.
ThePhilosophersGames absolutely!
It’s great content! The game vids and the LotR as well.
One of my favorite channels!
Chimera Theory. Similar to splicing two different fruit trees together to make one organism, when Sephiroth died in the Life Stream, he and Jenova were rejected by the life stream because they didn't belong on the planet, so they were isolated together and merged to create a separate entity that was a combination of the two: Jenivoth. Jenirphoth? Sevoroth? All of their strength, and only one weakness: spiky blond hair. And probably a low sex drive.
Considering that she was defeated by the Cetra in the past it makes sense that Seph is needed purely for his Will and his physical strength. It still makes her the antagonist since Sephiroth is merely being used as a tool to help her goal
But Sephiroth was also defeated by only a human (Cloud in the past in the Nibelheim reactor). Where does it say that Sephiroth's will is so powerful? He is just considered a powerful Soldier and he went insane when he found out about his past, maybe making him a perfect victim for Jenova to use.
Also sorry for the late answer
Well said sir ; this is what i have always thought since i played the game for the first time and even if developers state the opposite, Jenova Theory will always be the cannon for me . Sephiroth , Genesis , Angeal all are victims of the mad people who were supposed to be their family . Genesis murdered his own family because of that reason , Angeal's mother committed suicide because of her pain and regrets for what she caused in her child's life , Sephirot's mother committed suicide( didn't die) because of immense regret for what she have caused in her own child's life . When you visit her in the cave , first thing she asks is her son Sephiroth . When you think of Jenova Theory, story becomes so tragic and the supposed villains of the story become just victims and you start to pity them ; they never deserved that life but their fate just sealed by their own family when they were just in womb , their body abused and their lifes ruined. This adds another level of complexity and uniqueness to the supposed "villain" Sephiroth and overall story of ff7 .
I'd like to see a revision of this with the remastered ff7+Advent Children story. Would be interesting.
Sorry to disappoint, but I really hate Advent Children's story with passion 😅 I also hated the changes made to the FF7 Remake.
I think both destroyed the tragedy of this original interpretation, glorifying Sephiroth to a bad ass villain, while this interpretation made him more a victim, who was created by Shinra ina morally questionable experiment exploited by Shinra (that does not change) and ultimately lost control and became another chess piece of Jenova (maybe one that Jenova has a deeper connection to). I really liked this idea. I also liked the idea that with FF7 the story just ended. The planet cleansed itself from all evil as Bugenhagen explained in the game. From this perspective a sequel with some new kind of Sephiroth makes no sense. I think AC ruined the ending of the original.
The remake now seems to change everything and sadly removes consequences greatly. But the finite consequence of death was a main theme of the original, which was now removed because a Deus Ex Machina can come out of nowhere and change things. With this you open the door to make death and life arbitrary. Usually a writer would try to create the illusion of organic story development. In a good story you never think about that a characters dies or lives, because the writer wrote it down like that.
In FF7 Remake the writer makes it very obvious that this is the case by implementing those destiny ghosts. You could argue they are now defeated, but the idea (and what it does to consequences of the game) is so random, that in my opinion he can pull them out anytime he wants them, but these ghosts are not natural to the story. They don't develop organically out of the world and story story telling. They are just there, added to it to play with the fact, that this is a remake and the story is already written, but it might be a different universe.
This in my opinion makes the story far less interesting though. It actually reduces the impact of story elements of the original from my perspective and those heavy impact moments is what FF7's story lives from, but with this it's like a mockery. I absolutely hated that.
It's like the writer breaks the 4th wall and says: yes I know we already have the original story and you know what will happen, but will it? No, oh yes, but no on endless repeat. And this all the time, like an annoying meta-commentator.
As a result very FF7 Remake video I can make is a rant about it 😅
Great video, I hope you do one on the remake and what you think about the direction they seem to be going in.
Thank you :) Thinking about making a video about the Remake. Was sadly not a huge fan of it.
Doesn't advent children cannonize the jenova theory? Kadaj and the other remnants speak of mother. But kadaj speaks about if he is chosen or will sephiroth. This is pretty clear evidence that sephiroth is still answering to jenova. At least partially. Or maybe it should be described more like, when jenova has renunioned enough, and has power to animate, she will take the form of sephiroth. The box didn't contain sephiroth cells, it contained jenova. As im sure you are aware. So yet again, as a full fan of the sephiroth big bad, it does seem that without jenova. Sephiroth would not be. She afterall was injected into him, giving him the power he wields.
About the masamune left in the president later in the game you can get a clone of masamune in the gold saucer…maybe that’s how it didn’t disappear it’s just a clone of it…
Yes! Glad you made this. I loved the original story too.
Happy you liked it :) It was a passion project i had in mind for a long time.
After playing all games in the ff7 universe and saw the movie i always had the the impression that Genova and Sephiroth(after his death) are the same thing. The game does indeed leaves you with that impression since Sephiroth doesn't have much character development untill we get to Crisis Core. I also learned some time later that they went with word by word translation for ff7 which was terrible and we, at the west, lost a lot of insight. Very well documented video about Genova overall and you should really cover other games aswell
Considering Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells before birth, I'd say that's very accurate.
I should add, in Remake Jenova is shown with Glowing Pink/Purple eyes. I think this is overlooked in it's importance.
So I took it upon myself to find the exact pages within the Ultimania Omega that pinpoint the Jenova/Sephiroth topic and have found some very interesting information that actually states that both Sephiroth and Jenova are involved together, but there’s a big asterix on the “both” and “Jenova” parts to this.
There are actually pages dedicated completely to parsing which specific Sephiroth sightings are Sephiroth or Jenova (pg. 212), but again, there’s still a caveat to the latter. I had a hard time translating that particular page, but I believe my simple layout in the next two paragraphs states it accurately.
Beginning with Sephiroth, anything and everything to do with Cloud and the Sephiroth clones who had Jenova cells injected into them (the black cloaked people who were mentally broken from the Nibelheim fire and experimentally tested upon by Hojo) are being controlled by Sephiroth. That’s confirmed clearly on pg. 211 on a picture excerpt, the second from the bottom. The exact quote states:
“Reunion is an ability as a
Jenova (part/cell), but orders to Sephiroth Copies are for (from) Sephiroth as their master.” (Direct translation, but anything in parentheses here is actually what I believe the imperfect translation is saying. I don’t think any of my additions are stretches, merely clarifications that make it easier to read).
The other part to it is Jenova, more specifically her body parts (throughout the game, not including the one named SYNTHESIS at the end) which as I stated before, are confirmed to be acting purely on the impulse of mimicking Sephiroth’s will instinctively, even if there was a time thousands of years ago where she was alive and aware of the use of her abilities to shapeshift, deceive, close proximity, and infect. So during FF7 proper she’s not conscious of this, and also Sephiroth is not directly controlling her, but she is still carrying out his will instinctively because she’s instinctively mimicking his personality, memories, desires, and thus his will. She is simply a husk of her former self, the same way the Cetra are also not conscious anymore, but expressed now through the judgement of the planet. So instead of being more of a puppet being controlled by Sephiroth, she’s really more of a minion, albeit one for a super being who is congruent with her instinctive purpose. This is also clearly confirmed on pg. 211, on the second large paragraph of the page:
“Once upon a time (said in this way as to insinuate not anymore), Jenova used this ability to get close to the Ancients and plant a virus in them, causing them to die.”
Continuing in that very same paragraph, again on pg. 211, it’s even confirmed some of Cloud’s front/personality/memories during the beginning of FF7 that carry throughout the game are not just Zack’s, but the Jenova cells within him instinctively copying Tifa’s memory of Cloud whenever they met just before the start OG FF7 before Cloud agreed to help Avalanche, where he started acting very funny and unstable until he meets Tifa. Tifa elaborates on this before they really delve deep into Cloud’s subconscious in the lifestream if my memory serves me well. The quote on that page states:
“Not only Jenova itself, but also those who possess the cell have the ability to speak (not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean exactly), albeit imperfectly. Just before the start of the story, Cloud, who had a mental breakdown, returned to a seemingly normal state as soon as he met Tifa. By Jenova’s ability within him, because Jenova’s cells read Cloud in Tifa’s memory and Cloud's ideal image, it formed a new personality” (which is the personality Cloud is expressing in the start of the OG FF7).
It’s confirmed again on pg. 213, where the quote states:
“Cloud, perhaps because he was weaker than ordinary people both mentally and physically, could not become a SOLDIER and could not even maintain himself as a Sephiroth copy like the other residents of Nibelheim, and his spirit completely collapsed. After reuniting with his childhood friend Tifa in Midgar, he was supported by a false personality that was neither a copy of himself nor his original self.”
These examples are here to show how Jenova(‘s remains) can have her (their, in relation to her remains) abilities instinctively (also to say unconsciously) work in other aspects even outside of the Jenova/Sephiroth original debate.
So while both Sephy and Jenova are involved and shown in Sephiroth’s image, sometimes it’s Sephy actually taking control (like the cases of Cloud and those in black cloaks) and sometimes it’s an instinctive Jenova part, which instinctually mimics the shape, memories, and will of Sephiroth, again more like a minion, as Sephiroth isn’t actually directly controlling her 3 main parts, but she is robotically going through the motions of doing what she does as a mimic, and she has most likely instinctively mimicked what would most closely serve her instinctive purpose of destroying a planet and moving on to the next one to do the same. Sephy probably learns of Aeris’ death on his own, as she went back to the lifestream he was inhabiting when she passed (maybe Sephiroth also has some way of learning what parts of his will are carried out by her parts somehow as well? Not sure and can’t speak to it atm, but just a thought that came to my mind along this logical path of thought).
Something else that speaks to Sephiroth and his power is stated on pg. 213 regarding why some like Cloud get overcome, some like Zack don’t, but again mainly why Sephy has his power:
“The case of Sephiroth is extremely special. Until he learned the secret of his birth, he lived as a human despite his legendary strength, and five years ago he began to walk a different path from humans.
However, instead of being placed under Jenova's control, he seizes Jenova's initiative and controls their actions. This fact makes us feel the extraordinary strength of the life form Sephiroth.”
It’s also stated within the book that Sephiroth does officially die in Nibelheim 5 years ago (around the same pages mentioned already but if you want a specific passage I’d gladly go back in and find it), showing within FF7 proper itself how the great mechanic of the lifestream that speaks to the beautiful theme of life that the game is conveying is also what allows Sephiroth to be this Lovecraftian type fear and entity, one who does not die or completely cease, always looming, who can actually come back to the surface through the means of a weak/broken mind (or possibly even a willing participant).
Please let me know if you would like pdfs of these pages as well in case you would like to copy and paste them into translation programs to see it for yourself. Pdfs of the Ultimania Omega can also be found on google, as well as more translations about these topics and many other pages of support from the Ultimania Omega on gamefaqs.com (can also provide that to you as well). I’d also love to hear your opinion on all this as well. Let me know if you have anything you’d like to share.
The Ultimania guide, like the Compilation and the Remake for that matter, was made after Hironobu Sakaguchi left the company. It definitely had an impact.
Anyway, it makes the story more interesting to me if we consider that Sephiroth is a tragic villain who faced a similar identity crisis as Cloud but lost himself and became one of the monsters he hated. Taking a psychological struggle and making it more literal helps to convey it to the audience in a simple and interesting way, as a metaphor I suppose.
However, Jenova appears to be a chaotic entity itself, so it might actively need to borrow a form to manifest its will, just as the author needs some catalyst for an abstract concept. The remnant of Sephiroth would definitely help it mess with Shinra and the party. He was basically considered dead before Cloud and Aerith came across the headless body, and they would be key to unlock the black materia.
Call that a soft hybrid or assimilation theory if you will. It is somewhat based on the movie the Thing after all. Thanks for the video !
Yes something definitely changed at some point inside Square. Hironobu Sakaguchi leaving and not being as close to the project anymore could be a reason. I gave up hope for singleplayer Final Fantasy games a long time ago. And every time I give them a chance again I'm disappointed.
Yes Sephiroth is definitely similar to Cloud when it comes to identity crisis, but Sephiroth handles it very different. Cloud tries to find his own past self and Sephiroth somewhat embraces what he has become. It's also really tragic inside the Jenova theory imo. Esp. that it's possible that he does not know that he is not a Cetra to some degree, but a human-alien hybrid.
Sephiroth was Sephiroth for many parts, and he was not mindless. But it was clearly Jenova the one pulling the strings. But unlike for other that mind control was used. With Sephiroth was just manipulation. He snapped when he found out his origins. It goes along the mentality of when a good kid found out he is adopted and so become a rebellious kid. With the whole, "your not my real parent!" attitude. Even if the parents were perfect. After snapping Jenova takes advantage of his weakened mind state. Offer him a family and a propose a huge one at that. Kinda like a cult work and recruit him. By the end even if/when he reach a point were he learn that he is not a Cetra. He also learn that he is not a Cetra, but something "better" more powerful. With momy Jenova filling his head with "you are not some measly Cetra. You are a *GOD* ```disclaimer you gotta help me crack open the earth first``` A God" By feeding him this "she" can further manipulate him. And he will not care that in the end he wan't a Cetra. So there is not real "master and mindless puppet" between Sephiroth and Jenova. Neither of them is mindless. This is more akin to Palpatine and Anakin or Sauron and Sauroman. Sauroman/Anakin are not fully mindless puppets but they are manipulated, coerced and corrupted into doing their "masters" bidding. And although they fallow their masters, betraying their masters is not unthinkable. Sauroman if he had the power he would bend Sauron to his will instead for his "loyalty" is power based. As for Vader and Sidius is a bit more like Jenova and Sephiroth. Cult like. Anakin did saw Palpatin as a mentor/father figure, he won him over by gaining his trust and feeding him with something Anakin craved. When he was at his worst, Pal was there for him. Like how Jenova was there for Seph when he breaks down. They, Seph and Ani, are victims here, even from their conceptions, there was meddling, the got a bad hand and were manipulated into monsters. Anakin does gets better at the very end, with help. But Sephiroth double down, he doesn't even have someone to help him. Not that I believe it would've help him at the end. He wanted power above all else.
You can find psychological similarities here and there, bits, on more entertainment pieces. In DC comics and Marvel, in SW and LotR, hell even the MCU has the Loki finding he is adopted and later throwing a tantrum. And by tantrum I mean invading a planet as a God to rule or destroy who oppose him. Then acting like it was all tomfoolery. I don't think Sephiroth sees as anything that he do as evil, he is above all that. And everything he is doing is a means to an end, to obtain Godhood.
Anyway, great video, other than I'm pretty sure there was no clear puppet master and mindless puppet. As for his powers, he is strong with the Jenova cells, allowing him to use powers Jenova has, and it is also connected to the world in his half dead state, tapping in to the lifestream. You are focusing too much on out of time events. Like comparing Sephiroth power now with his strength when he was defeated by Cloud. Not the same. You could say he was more human then, he is more Jenova/monster/spiritual now. Like saying Gandalf is weaker because Sauroman beats him. Later when he return he is strongest. From the beginning Sephiroth true abilities were limited by his "human body" something that no longer limits him. He body is on the Northern crater while he is projecting around the world.
43:30 ish, by the time cloud meets jenova on the boat, hes already been injected with jenova cells. So she should have not only known him but also had control of him.
Two weeks later, I can't believe this video has so few views. I honestly expected it to explode.
That can always take some time, but I'm actually quite happy with the views. My Gaming content sadly does not get that many views and publishing videos for multiple unrelated (or only very distantly related) topics on the same channel is also not ideal on TH-cam. But I think the video still has potential because after the Remake some people will replay the original, because the Remake is very different at many places and also not the complete story, so I expect the video getting slowly more views over time.
This is the reason why I am fine with the changes in remake and not just being a 1:1 remaster. Because we wouldn't go anywhere else lore wise. We would be in the same spot as we were in 1997 after beating it. Now things have opened up to give us the nostalgia we wanted but also be able to piece this complexity together. And if it turns out that Sephiroth was too just a puppet and Jenova has in fact been the antagonist the entire time rather than a dormant clump of cells at Sephiroth's mercy... yeah no, she's still alive just dormant but still conscious and uses the bodies with her biology to do her bidding because of her dormant body.
*I really hope Jenova is the very final boss fight in remake and is unlike anything we have seen before.*
We have seen Sephiroth beaten already so many times in OG, in AC and in remake. With his exposure in the remake I dont think we are just gonna keep fighting him throughout the parts as the main boss fights.
I would have actually preferred they would not milk FF7 at all, because it somewhat contradicts the point the story of the original tries to make. the trend of just not ending stories drives me insane these days (and just make sequel after sequel until a remake is done with sequels again).
Instead they should (imo) just make totally something new as they did with all the other classic Final Fantasy games. Instead they "rewrite" the lore (and postulate interpretations), which puts in in a state of "arbitrariness" of the writers. Esp. the FFVII Remake's story did feel like it happens next what ever the writers are up to (which is ofc always true for fictional stories, but it's a hidden truth). It did not feel like an organic story development and it compromises the themes of the original story. Death and sacrifice seemed meaningless, etc. I absolutely hated the FFVII Remake, actually almost as much as I hated the story of Advent Children.
I would have preferred staying more true to the original story and with that getting a good story or put the energy into something new. Square seem to have lost its ability to write good, interesting, somewhat meaningful and coherent stories for single player Final Fantasy games.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I understand. We all got our preferences. It's difficult to come to a conclusion though, we have no idea how this is gonna transition into the rest of the story. So personally myself I been trying not to come to a definitive conclusion that they are completely rewriting. I'm sorry you hated remake. I loved it. Even with the changes, my desires of nostalgia were met and kinda like some new stuff. I don't care if they milk it, I don't want it to end. The characters, world and base story are my favorite, I want them to keep going so I have something to look forward to.
Also with remake in the name already means creating something new. Completely remade. They are going for this "creating something new" remake while still blending it with nostalgia which has become a dream for some fans and a nightmare for others. Likewise if they did a 1:1 remaster, a lot of fans would love it but then there would be the ones like myself that want more. I played through FF7 OG many times, although I would be grateful of a 1:1 there wouldn't be as much anticipation and mystery cause we know everything it would just look and sound better. I too was overwhelmed with the dumpster truck of an ending but it has grown on me. I hope you like part 2 more :)
Great video. You really took the time to explain the jenova theory and honestly it's got me thinking in a good way. Played it as a teen but didn't dig into the details. Just thought, sephoroth is bad. Jenova is a mystery. But you made a strong case for the jenova theory which helps me see sephoroth as a character with more empathy. The jenova theory also makes me think along the lines of religious thought, where often Satan is supposed to be someone physically handsome but mentally extremely influential. In this case, the physical would just be manifestations of sephoroth for jenova to extend her influence and destroy humanity.
Anyways, do you think that the ending of ff7 is a "bad ending" with the uncertainty if any humans survived? All we see is red 13 and don't know if humans bonded with earth or if they were anniliated. It seems many people were upset by this ending. So I think with ff7r, they are trying to use this theme of "fighting destiny" to offer an alternative ending, which I'm personally hopeful but very nervous if they can pull it off.
Excellent video! You also sound just like how I imagine Hojo sounding
thank you, happy you liked the video ^^
haha not sure if that's a compliment 😅
@@ThePhilosophersGames I just imagined him being German sounding. you have a nice voice.
Thank you ^^ Well I guess it makes sense for mad scientists to have this accent 😅
In Crisis Core, you learn that there was an experiment on three individuals - Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth. One was a clone, another's parent was injected with Jenova Cells after impregnation, and the other Jenova Cells implanted in the egg itself. Hollander attempted to make a Jenova clone using his own son and Genesis in that could absorb the lifestream and not take any negative side effects from it, but both of them failed. One was able to absorb it but would be transformed every time he did, the other would slowly degrade with every copy he made. Sephiroth, however, was the perfect 'clone' that was able to absorb the lifestream without losing himself in it, retaining the ability to flow within it. Essentially, it gave him immortality that even in death, he couldn't be absorbed by the lifestream yet could move about it freely.
I believe Jenova was another Omega Weapon with a whole other lifestream, sent off after a planet died in order to create a new future on a dead planet. It just so happened to find a planet full of life, and the virus it speaks of is simply the other lifestream invading the current one. The function of an omega weapon in FF7 is to absorb the lifestream upon the planet's destruction, and the other being Chaos kills any living being to collect the rest. He continually talks about doing what Jenova did - absorbing the lifestream and creating a new future on a distant planet with him as it's god. My question really is - is Sephiroth an omega weapon made in human form, or is he the Chaos for Jenova collecting the lifestream for Jenova so they can make a failsafe and create a new future on a distant planet?
That part of the "expanded story" I really did not like. There is no indication for all of this in the original FF7 from 1997 (ofc not it was not planned as such and that is why it feels it comes out of nowhere). The idea of the Jenova Project was not the lifestream itself, it was making a Cetra to find the Promised Land and get to its resources, because Shinra assumed Jenova was a Centra. Only later due to Hojo finding Gast and Ifalna, they learnt that this might have been not the case and maybe here it got the let's make super soldiers idea (or as a side effect during the initial research). The only form where Sephiroth might be able to fuse with the lifestream (leaking out due to the meteor's impact) was in a hybrid form with Jenova, which we see later in the game.
Sadly I don't have a good answer for your questions, because I more of a purist when it comes to FF7 and for me the stories told in the games, films and so on later are for me like fan fiction. I'm not so deep into them either.
Great work. Just finished FFVII for the first time last night and I couldn't wrap my head around Sephirot and for me mostly felt - to describe it bluntly - as a scarecrow/phantom created by Jenova as he was known as a very powerful soldier - for me the Jenova Theory is not just the most fascinating but also the theory which makes the most sense. I still do have some open questions and ideas - which is why i will replay the game with "Beacause" retranslation mod again - with the danger running into more confusion.
There is one thing I would like to discuss - its Cloud. Who is he, is he really a failed experiment? Why does no one remember Cloud and Tifa when they return to Nibleheim? Why do only Cloud and Tifa share similar memories? No pun intended, but Clouds memories are clouded - and we only get fragments of what might had happend in Nibleheim - and furthermore how he did overcome Jenovas control? At some point in the story even Jenova should have noticed that Cloud is becoming very powerful and a threat. Furthermore, Cloud also fell into the lifestream and survived it. I will replay it again and will see if there are any clues - strengthening my Cloud Theory. Was Cloud Jenovas backup for Sephirot or an antagonist deceiving her (unconsciously) - created by his own will or maybe by other entities? Or maybe its just a blunt love story between Cloud and Tifa and how Cloud found the drive to overcome his fears. Tifas martial arts master Zangan, carries and keeps her alive after the incident in Nibleheim to Midgar - thats what we found in the note hidden in Tifas sheet music. So what did happen to the people in Nibleheim and to Tifa and Clouds memory after all - where does their special connection come from? Maybe Tifa is also living false imprinted memories? Cloud is the one stopping Jenova with the help of his friends - how could he complete such a difficult endeavor - a failed experiment, just a puppet to Jenova - and in the end more powerful as her? Was there a turning point, a point in time when the planet chose him to become his avatar - was this before or after Aeris (Aerith) death? It seems that cloud is cleansed after defeating Jenova - which would make sense, as cleansing him before would have alerted Jenova, and she might not have let him that close.
There they are - my incentives for another playthrough. I'd love to discuss them with you @ThePhilosophersGames and people in the chat here.
If you go to Nibelheim in the present back into Tifa's room, you find a letter, that explains, that the people in Nibelheim are actually actors. Shinra rebuild Nibelheim after the incident 1:1, experimented on the survivors (Mako and Jenova cells; like with Cloud and Zack too in that secret sequence) and placed them there plus actors, who pretended nothing happened. So some of the Jenova "Clones" are actually people of Nibelheim.
That is why they don't recognize you and you (Tifa and Cloud) don't know them and you can call them out for it.
Cloud's and Tifa's shared meomries are true.
If you enter the Shinra Lab in the Manor of Nibelheim after Cloud rejoins the party on CD2 (the Mideel thing), you start a secret sequence, that shows what happened to Cloud and Zack after that and how they got to Midgar - in case you missed it.
So Cloud is actually the Cloud from Nibelheim, but he was put into a Mako tank, injected Jenova Cells and thus experimented on (same with Zack). Zack as Soldier however had already Jenova cells and Mako in him and was pretty much not really affected by this. Cloud in contrast had huge problems with it and his mind was basically nuked. When Zack was shot, the Shinra Soldiers left Cloud for dead. But he crawled to Zack and somehow melted with his personality. My theory was, that the desire to become a Soldier (and the pain of failing to reach it) was still so strong in him, that this was the only anchor for his mind and he grabbed it, basically becoming Zack. And since he had Mako and Jenova Cells he is actually now a soldier. All other Jenova "Clones" (so normal people just brute force exposed to Mako and Jenova Cells) also showed the same behaviour. they were not able to talk meaningfully anymore, (seemingly) did not know who they were (nobody showed sings of personality, they just blindly had the drive to go to Sephiroth/Jenova) for the Reunion. Interestingly Cloud has in my opinion no number, because he escaped. And all Clones failed, no matter if they had a number or not. The idea must have been to create another Sephiroth (= Sephiroth Clone) skipping the difficult method of using an unborn child. Else I have no idea what the idea of that experiment was at all.
However all the poor people's mind except Zack's (who was a Soldier, so trained and selected after physical and mental tests, to withstand the procedure) were basically destroyed. But in the end Cloud could also get a personality back (Zack's) and when he fell into lifestream, his former self could even be restored, making him the only success. He is the only true Sephiroth Clone.
A misconception is imo also that Cloud was weak. He wounded Sephiroth (which Zack could not) and later threw him down into the Mako pit. So he defeated him twice. it must also be considered that Cloud was wounded too, when he was captured and experimented on, and his body still survived. So Cloud was actually very strong. maybe his mind was not ready for the Jenova Cells/Mako exposure. It is also not clear how this experiment was different from process of becoming a Soldier. Maybe the exposure was more intense? Soldiers are not called Sephiroth clones, but the principle behind is seems to be identical. Maybe it was because they were strong enough to resist? FF7 alone does not answer this, but implies that there must be a difference between both processes. The humans turned into monsters in the Nibelheim reactor are also different. So I assume there are 4-5 different methods:
- Mako and Jenova Cells exposure in these pressure tanks -> creates Monsters over time
- Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to an Embryo -> Creates a being Human/Jenova Hybrid like Sephiroth (cat eyes)
- Controlled Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to trained and specifically selected humans -> Soldiers
- unkown degree of Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to randomly selected Humans -> creates so called Sephiroth "Clones", who lose their mind and become puppets (it also seems an epierment based on a theory and so far didn't work)
- Injecting Jenova Cells (if there was exposure to Mako too is unknown) -> does what we see with Hojo at the end, who quickly mutates in several phases
However Cloud somehow manages to overcome this, which is quite fascinating.
In the end Cloud does not really win alone. It's Aeris, holy and the planet. Holy alone was also not enough (delayed and too late?), but teh lifeforce of the planet (prophecy by Bugenhagen) who cleanses all and wins. Cloud and his friends just freed the trapped (by Jenova/Sephiroth) the Holy spell, which was an important part too, by defeating or weakening its "keeper". Still Cloud is the only true Sephiroth Cloud, the only success. You could also interpret as him being Sephiroth 2.0, maybe a better Sephiroth (Cloud e.g. also travelled through the Lifestream maybe with Aeris help, just in the opposite direction as Sephiroth once and without Jenova's head; Cloud went from the North Crater to Mideel, while Sephiroth went from Nibelheim to the North Crater). Which is why he became so powerful. Tifa also travelled the Lifestream (to help Cloud) and the constant conflicts maybe made them very powerful too. All had strong reasons to fight Sephiroth, Jenova and Shinra.
Sorry for the wall of text. In case you answer I will definitely read it, but probably won't have the time answer again in this length and detail, sorry for that in advance =/ There are a lot of great posts here already, but long texts usually require longer answers and they are very time consuming (and this is not my only video with long comments).
@@ThePhilosophersGames Thank you for taking your time and give such an elabore answer! I indeed missed the secret sequence showing what happend to Cloud and Zack. (Noticed it while watching your video). Also missed the letter explaining the people in Nibleheim. Your reply made things a lot clearer to me now. I 100% agree that without Aerith (Aeris) there would have been no way to stop Jenova at all. It appears to me that the devs took plenty of ideas from shamanism when creating her and the ancients. (which might also explain the Wolf appearance in Advent Children - but lets not dive deeper into this movie ;) ). I just started the 2nd playthrough - and this time i am using a guide to not miss anything story related. It might take a while to get through the game again, especially with a certain amount of scrutiny. So far I like the new translation a lot. I will definetly come back here to give drop some thoughts. Take care!
No problem, I like answering comments ^^
Curious what you will think or find out. I also played through it on stream (in March/April if i recall correctly) to prepare making this video.
I only know a bit of that one translation from the Reunion mod and some parts I looked at were translated quite differently translated towards a certain interpretation, even though it did not exist in the original text. I had one instance of a text that was not in the original Japanese text at all. Some were however much better translated, so take it with a grain of salt I guess (if you use this one, no idea if there are others). I however only looked a very few parts in the original translation an noticed it only there.
Wish you a lot of fun ^^
Sephiroth does not have mommy issues, he has daddy issues. His foster father was mad.
Jenova is just like the profound darkness from phantasy star universe, an alien organism with ties to both the physical world and the spiritual or metaphysical if you would, to the sense that she is basically immortal and everlasting, even if you reduced her to atoms she or it would still return because it is the avatar of evolution, in the most wicked and twisted way of it, so even without a body it's will carries on in others, feeding on their negative emotions and corrupting them like a virus. This is all inspired by the mythological story of the annunaki and the first humans who were created to serve the ancient gods who were highly intelligent beings with godly technology and it all ends with humans unconsciously serving a dark entity who created the material universe and claimed to be God, but God is a plural word so that is why you have multiple sources of media who don't speak of a single God but different deities who serves as avatars of many aspects of the cosmos.
I'm just trying to fit jenova and the cetra into the fact that FFX is ancient history of the FF7 world
Technically Jenova is the main Villian Sephiroth's mind was assimilated into it and it called itself Sephiroth
@Jason P I mean its the truth...Sephiroth is dead but Jenova assimilated him back into itself and His Personality took hold.
You do fight Diamond weapon when it's on its way to Midgar, although the Mako cannon kills it. The only weapon you can't fight is Sapphire.
Great video! Thank you for making it. I just finished original ff7 and I really enjoyed this video. Have you played the remake? And if so have you seen the theory that sephiroth in the remake is from the future or the original ff7.
Or how midgar changes from the new design at the start to the original design at the end
Thank you, happy you liked the video :) Original FF7 is still fantastic. I hope you enjoyed your playthrough.
Yes I think it seems like a very likely theory (from the perspective of the Remake), but I have to admit, I did not like the Remake that much - esp. the story and the changes to it. I don't mind that it's maybe a different timeline, but I think the story has its problems nonetheless.
Hey thank you for taking the time to write back, I read the other comments after and seen that you’ve already had to answer this question many times sorry about that. I can understand how you feel about it. Thank you for creating this video real quality work. Also the pinned comments were very interesting a real good read.to answer your question from a different comment I discovered your video when I was researching Sauron (also a great video) I seen this and it really looked cool but I held off cuz I wanted to beat ff7 before watching. I know you don’t like other ff7 content and I think people are asking because they liked this video so much they want more cuz that’s how I felt after watching this.
No worries. I answer so many comments every week, that I can't memorize them. This video only gets comments relatively infrequent. So I was not aware that I already answered this question in the past 😂
If I'm aware of that and it's a longer, i sometimes copy paste what I have written (because it makes no sense to write it again, I'm lazy 😅).
Oh interesting that you found this while watching my LotR stuff. It's usually quite likely, but still surprises me a bit in this case ^^
To make a long video like this - with tons of research - you need some passion for the project and I only have this passion for the original game. I could imagine maybe covering another aspect of the original game at some point.
Thanks for commenting too ^^
Very interesting. This kinda reminds me of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (it’s one of my favorite games).
Malos is an Aegis of destruction and hates all life made from his creator...but those feelings come from the driver who awakened him, Amalthus. So, Malos was manipulated and Corrupted by another. And while Malos is the final boss, he never felt to be the main antagonist. The Jenova theory feels very much like this. Why interesting.
Never got into Yenobalde, but heard good things about the games. Nice to see some parallels between different series. That is what I often liked about JRPGs, they had really unusual stories, settings and ideas compared to many western RPGs (there are exceptions too like Planescape: Torment, etc).
Funny because monolithsoft were working in the same building at the same time, sharing and swapping ideas with the writers of ffvii and even wrote the first draft pitch of ffvii. But the expanded lore says seph is just a badass so Jenova is just his bitch
Wow great theories. I am also leaning to the Jenova theory. So as long as Jenova is alive, "Sephiroth(Jenova zombies or puppets) " or any other jenova impersonations will be able to return over and over again or take other forms.
Thank you :) Yes I love the Jenova theory too. it offers many possibilities.
Check out this video:
This one's a toughie because Sephiroth lost his mind when he reads and misinterpreted Gauss journal at nibelheim so he basically inherited a jenova like will for exterminating everyone. Also, Jenova goes to the location of crystallized Sephiroth instead of the other way around.... or maybe the Jenova body was just going to its head as Sephiroth took that. In either case, the lines are blurred meaning this could be Jenova and Sephiroth meld so much so that Sephiroth can control Jenova's abilities even outside his own body.
th-cam.com/video/96c6zro3lmM/w-d-xo.html
OK i had to revisit one more time and check out this website.
In the remaster, when cloud says to specter Sephiroth (the Sephiroth in clouds head probably Jenova/Sephiroth messing with clouds mind) something along the lines of "you're already dead...", Sephiroth sounded confused "I am?".... So Sephiroth really died and Jenova is no longer dormant and maybe she is identity disoriented in the similar way that Cloud thought he was Zack..... Jenova was already a world destroyer, which suggests Jenova is a bio weapon like the flood of Halo. There is only Réunion and destruction and never any desire for propagation. And Jenova does need the mind to be weakened in order to control a person (Sephiroth was unable to take control of cloud in “Sephiroth (Jenova?)" moment of desperation to prevent Holi. There was also the barrier around Holi and that knowledge could only come from Jenova. Sephiroth mind had cracked long ago in Nibelheim and being exposed to so much Mako in the livestream....may be unconscious and disoriented if Sephiroth is indeed alive or can he even be considered alive given how disoriented he is. Jenova is the only one powerful enough to deal with the livestream (she clearly has destroyed many worlds) and her will to destroy is so strong that she can remain intact in the livestream and looking for opportunities to break free and complete her plan.... Oh yeah the video:
th-cam.com/video/fGDuZP_Hgrg/w-d-xo.html
Oh and this one is tinfoil AF but is mad funny lol: th-cam.com/video/QOVMxv16nrE/w-d-xo.html
I liked that deep dive. That's cleared up a few things that I was sketchy on. I noticed a common element with Lucricia's, Sephiroth's and Jenova's bodies all kept preserved in some sort of containment being rich in mako energy.
I think that bit about the release of a virus that made the ancients see their mothers and brothers and turn into monsters makes me wonder if Jenova isn't nothing more than a psycho active virus. After the Niebelheim incident, Hojo injected into Cloud some of Jenova cells. Cloud adopting the identity of Zack and forgetting many things about his own life before that point could have been early symptoms of the Jenova virus. Every time Cloud got a flashback or a vision, these might have been episodes induced by his condition. I'm still working on this theory but I think there's something there.
Kind of a side topic but I read a theory somewhere that Jenova could be a Lavos spawn, however a not yet developed one, that was seperated from the main husk in order to seek out other planets and worlds to consume. Square loves their cosmic parasites.
Awesome video!
Thank you, happy you liked it :)
In the game, I don't remember anything saying that Holy did anything to Sephiroth or Jenova. It merely pushed back Meteor, and it couldn't even do that unless Sephiroth was already dead. Which is why you had to go to the crater and take care of things, or it would have already done it.
The dialogue with Bugenhagen, where he describes it, is in the video in the background
I've always found the Jenova theory to be much more interesting than "Sad angry man is so sad and angry that he dominates an alien superbeing and tries to destroy the world".
To me, Final Fantasy VII is infinitely more interesting when viewed as an experimental blend of science-fantasy and cosmic horror. Will the resilient spirit of humanity survive when confronted with powers beyond their understanding? Or will the spirit of their own planet decide that humanity deserves to be a mere footnote in the history of the universe?
That lingering question makes the final scene so much more impactful.
Amazing video. thank you so, so much for this.
Thank you, happy you liked it :)
Hello
I'm from the Jenovas Witness. Have you heard of the Reunion?
😂
Wow, aren't you blasphemous!
Something to note, and you could ask @Halkeye777 for confimation, but I saw a video that claimed that "Bizzaro" Sephiroth is actually a mistranslation of "Rebirth" Sephiroth, which is given more importance considering the name of the remake; apparently "Rebirth" was written as it would phonetically sound in English (I believe as "Rebirsu") and thus misinterpreted as "Reverse" by the translators, and the connection here seems to be "Bizzaro" versions of Superheroes being the "reverse" of the original leading to the translation team to call Sephiroth's "Rebirth" form "Bizzarro Sephiroth" instead. I wish I could find the original video that talked about this but I can't find it to save my life.
Yes that seems correct. It's リバース・セフィロス - Ribāsu・Sefirosu - Rebirth Sephiroth. I think the name only appears when you activate the "help" and select the enemy during combat or analyse him.
PS: to make sure I ask a Japanese speaker. Goole translates it with Reverse Sephiroth too 😅
PPS: OK, according to my friend (native speaker), it can actually mean both "reverse" or "rebirth". Ofc the latter seems more likely in the context. Maybe it's a play with those words too?
Makes sense if taking into account the names of the Jenova pieces fought in the game: Birth, Life, Death and Synthesis. A reborn Sephiroth (or a new merged Sephiroth-Jenova entity).
Whether you think Sephiroth is leading the charge or you think Jenova is in control, you can't deny that her will to seek power is the driving force of everything. Sephiroth is the continuation of the calamity that came from the skies.
Yes agreed, I now think that the idea of the developers was that Sephiroth becomes her "heir" and continues what she once tried to do, becoming the new calamity. But (sadly) I also now think that the developers did not do a great job setting up Sephiroth good enough in the original story for this to become apparent. As a teenager I thought this was intentional and that it was genius, but looking into the game again when I was some decades older, I see it more as flaw of the original, that accidental led to an imo pretty cool interpretation.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yep you're right, Sephiroth was lightning in a bottle. People always say a great villain will elevate a protagonist's status and story, and they had something with him. Though I think in an effort to expand on the "cool factor" of Sephiroth, they might not of thought all the way through enough with some of the lore and details regarding him. Still a cool guy though lol
I know I'm years late to the party, but have you checked to see the meaing to some of the japanese words? I know there are two used as "I" those words neing ore (an informal way to say "I" usually used by men with people they are close with) and watashi (a genderless term that translates to “I”). Sephiroth only uses ore BEFORE he finds out about jenova and uses watashi after. that little change makes a world of differance and supports the jenova puppet master argument. after all,
Have you ever played any of the Suikoden games?
Sadly no =/ Always wanted to play it, but I never did. I think I saw a Let's play somewhere in parts on Twitch some years ago.
Great video! Goes to my top of FFVII videos.
Thank you! Happy you enjoyed it so much. It was really a passion project for me and a video i wanted to do for a long time, even though these days it's a bit of an exception topic wise on my channel ^^
This Changed my life in so many ways..what a powerful game!!
Yes it also had a huge influence on me as a teenager and gamer (same with Deus Ex 1). I agree it's a powerful game.
It would totally be a great hypothesis/theory. I have to show this channels, that got together.
Well, Sephiroth was closest to Jenova the closes to possibly used mind corruption and pheromones, like part of the Reunion she called told him.
There’s a few novels or books of story telling that are cannon leading to support your theory was there. A Road to a Smile, and I forgot the other 2.
Like 👍🏽 your video
Poor Vincent. His own son was used as an experiment from the evil Hojo
Pause at min 30:00 exactly the way that scene is framed with the trees parting like hair revealing a rock face makes it look like a woman, like jenova. Im probably reaching but if Jenova is the puppetmaster this would be perfect foreshadowing given how the attention is on sephiroth right now when in reality it is all Jenovas will pulling the strings.
I did not notice, but good catch. i would assume that's just accidental, but yes it's so weird how many little things just support this theory. If you look for it you will find it I guess.
Now I’m older my head cannon is that it’s all Jenova, and she only appears as sephiroth to manipulate cloud and the team. If she was pursued by other characters let’s say Rufus she would appear as someone he fears / has unfinished business with. The only issue with this is why give him the black materia in the north crater instead of directly to jenova .
I don’t think he’s controlled by her, but is being influenced by her instead.
When I was playing Dissidia Opera Omnia there was a scene where Sephiroth seemed to be talking to himself, some his own dialogue that was, supposedly, being replied to by himself was in arrows , so I do think he was in fact talking to Jenova. (They were talking about killing the goddess, Materia. For context about that scene.)
I think it’s kinda like the Yugi and Yami situation, from YuGiOh. Jenova is in Sephiroth’s head and when he’s using her body he is in her head.
It's unlikely with later additions to FFVII. Just to avoid misunderstandings: for this video I only look at the question from the perspective of the original game in the universe of the original game.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I am and I still see this a possibility from what I’ve seen with the way he acts. The idea just convinced me even more after seeing that scene.
Isn’t cetra pronounced with an s sound ? Like setra not ketra. That sounds so wrong
Yes it is, sorry (as I found out after recording the Japanese is also pronounced with an S sound), I guess it's a thing in my native language to pronounce the C as K.
Heya! Thanks for the awesome, well thought out video!
I've always thought that Jenova was the main villain, even back when I first played FF7 in the mid 00's! That was part of what made Sephiroth such a great / tragic villain. I wasn't even aware that most people thought that Sephiroth was the main villain until I researched it a lot later, seems that everyone drew their own conclusion, part of what made the game so great!
You mentioned the quote from the Ultimania about Sephiroth being in control, could this perhaps be more of an illusion of control, rather than actual free will, similar to the Saren / Benezia / Sovereign situation? (if you're a Mass Effect fan!)
Would love to hear your thoughts!
Thank you, much appreciated!
Yes agreed that really made Sephiroth almost a victim, which i found a pretty cool twist, but yes the game was very open for interpretations.
Square had to establish one direction though or as I think that was maybe their idea all along and the final game release was just not very clear in this regard. In the Ultimania they explain that Sephiroth was the controlling power though. It's explained that he overpowered Jenova's will and took control. So he is again not a tragic villain. Ofc in FF7 this is not really explained/hinted at and the translation mistakes don't help either. I guess in the original Japanese text there is a "powerful will" mentioned, that could hint at Sephiroth, but all other elements (as explained) don't hint at him. But because Sephiroth is such a popular and powerful villain, I guess it made no sense to establish him differently, even if it would make more sense in the original FF7 and I could also imagine this was also the original idea, just an "imprecise" execution of the story led by accident to the "Jenova Theory". That is at least what I believe after making this video 😅
PS: also sorry for the late answer, wanted to take a moment to write it
Its kinda both.... the ultimania does say sephiroth is the main villain but honestly he still isn't.
He does end up controlling jenova's will. That is correct. But hes still a product OF those cells. he does puppet jenova from the livestream, but honestly they both are the villains at the end of the day anyway. Kind of a packaged deal.
Square went with the Sephiroth theory mostly because of sequels i think.
But core ff7 without retcons I'd say it more points to the Jenova theory
agreed ^^
To comment on the theory though. Some things to consider. Seph was impaled by the Buster Sword. Ouch. I can see this completely severing his torso..I'm most on board with the hybrid theory, but leaning more towards Sephiroth in control and here's why. So his severed torso and Jenovas head fall into the Mako. I think to survive she fuses with him however he's still the upper half or the mind of the fusion. Gaining her knowledge and power as well as that of the lifestream. I also don't think Jenova would just remain Sephiroth. Why wouldn't she eventually drop the charade?
I THINK I MAY HAVE NOTICED SOMETHING COOL ABOUT JENOVA!!
I was watching the cutscenes of crisis core. I was at the part where Sephiroth locks himself in the basement reading research documents going nuts. One of the documents said. “ Jenova CONFIRMED to be an ancient”
So not only did everyone (shinra, scientists, Sephiroth) mistakingly think Jenova was an ancient, but somehow one of the scientists “confirmed” it? How do you confirm something that is false? I think this helps ur Jenova puppet master theory and I’ll explain...
So as we’ve already understood Jenova has clearly been manipulating most the ppl in the game. Whether it’s consciously and in secret or subconsciously doesn’t matter for this. We both think that she has been manipulating Sephiroth as well. (I also believe that Sephiroth has definitely made useful for himself in a few ways during the game, but again irrelevant)
In crisis core when Zack is coming up behind Sephiroth tearing up Jenova Sephiroth says “they’re here mother” referring to zack aka humans. “They took the world from you and we will take it back together and go to the promise land”. Sephiroth is talking to her like she is an ancient. Even though she really isn’t. Oh and b4 he says all this he starts with “I had an epiphany “. So really Sephiroths turn to the dark side was significantly connected to him believing Jenova was an ancient and the world was robbed from her. Who knows what would’ve happened if this weren’t the case.
Back to the scientists confirmation. So remember they dug her up and immediately thought she was an ancient. I’m assuming before they found her they were already looking for ancients.
It’s very possible that Jenova when found manipulated them all into believing she was an ancient on purpose so they would bring her in and do the experiments they did with her. It’s also possible the “confirmation” never actually happened. They just thought it did because Jenova made it so. Which in turn also leads to Sephiroth being manipulated into thinking Jenova was wronged and wanting to get revenge for her