How about learning how to race? When I raced Karts and taught at Jim Hall race craft was the most important thing. We didn't bump much because you really couldn't. Officials are not the answer, schools and learning how to race are.
Expecting all participants to afford racing schools and coaches takes kart racing out of the reach of a lot of people. Clubs should be offering some kind of basics but that is generally focused on getting around the track and not racecraft itself. That means that learning racecraft comes down to experience on track and from enforcement by officials to steer drivers in the right direction. That is the reality of hobby and amateur sport.
Lowering the throttle to 10% for 5-10 seconds seems fair. It can be electromechanically activated to restrict fuel/air. A light can be mounted for when it's activated to let other drivers know to avoid that kart. Marshals can check the system it's working in before the race with a force meter.
Cost and complexity. Cost of making the parts, ensuring tight tolerances, compliance, etc. both two and four cycle engines use mechanically operated and metered carbs. Adapting them to electronic control is going to be a bigger task than you may be giving it credit for.
@@OakmanOnRacing not electronically controlled but electromechanically. Ie passive electronics, eg Switch by the bumper, if moved it will trigger a relay which actuates a valve. The valve is regulated to shut to x volume/min. All karts should be able to have adaptors to adapt to said valve device. Relay can be a timed event ie it can be disengaged after the circuit breaks, or if you deform the bumper so much it keeps the switch on, you'll need to go to the pits to get it fixed. I assume 2 and 4 cylinders don't race in the same class, they can have different models on volume/min to keep it at consistant max throttle allowed.
weeeh, you liked my camera idea ... *hahah :) i kind of made it up along the way, never the less, it still better than most other solutions, because the other ones can be abused by the driver in front with the "break testing" method... giving the driver behind a penalty for something they could not avoid. This is why it should be a judge decision, delivered with video to be reviewed ... i promise, there wont be much to review after the race if the first two heats during the weekends are judged fairly hard. And the great thing about a wireless system would be that the video's would arrive during race, so they could even hand out the penalties during the race as well. Yes, running wireless gear and camera's are expensive, and it needs to be uploaded to servers etc. And yeah, i guess it would be expensive... but another way of viewing it is; imagine that you put 250.000 ...€ into a season, and you get punted off in the finale, and the guy behind you gets the place in the F3 seating, and you dont ... but you where the faster driver always - how fair is this? So when stakes gets higher - the willingness to cheat also gets higher - which is why the black flag and more power to the officials of cause is a given throughout all this - yes Officials are actually allowed to call out a black flag - un-sportmanship behavior, you can pack up your shit and go home. Camera on each nosecone would be enough in my view - next to it should be a LED light system, light should be green when not activated and red for 20s if activated - should be placed so driver can see the red light. This way they know that they clicked the bumper and it can be checked by officials pretty fast. Since the wireless is in the open, you would need a booster on the antenna's for the system, the camera's / checking system would need to connect to the wireless network, but remember that ins only last 30s. video that is uploaded from the kart who got the clicker activated. and the clicker would probably go off on the back bumper of the one in front, and the front on the one behind. 30s video uploaded to small NAS - doesnt require much computer to handle. Creating and coding a review queue system with a tagging code pr. kart etc. would be the fun part.... The Camera's on the karts dont need much storage either - a small battery + a bit of coded electronics + some wifi .... a RasPie would come far.... and look and behold, a raspie survailance camera based upon "alarms": www.nabto.com/create-webrtc-accessible-raspberry-pi-camera-with-nabto/ 16€ for at Raspie Wireless + battery + camera + sd card. Pr kart. Then the micro switches - which of 8 should be enough to cover a kart. Then you would need wireless coverage, where range can be extended with +10db antennas, and a small laptop + some software to handle the reported incidents. Honestly i dont think it that much of a pain. The camera's should cover so that feets on pedals and steering wheel is visible. And any footage should be auto deleted afterwards, so that its still the officials who do the penalty work, and not the social medias afterwards. This is my personal opinion.... Uploads from karts could also be cached til after the race, and uploaded during the park ferme time after each race and through the weight-in after race... the great part of all this is that you dont have to check for noses after the race - but as a finishing action so ensure all had the system on, the drivers would not be free from the karts before their noses had been activated in the pits before weight in ... so all could do a start and finish activation - this would have ensured that the system was on during the race if made correct.
I think a purely mechanical mechanism would be the most ideal method of determining impact from kart to kart I think it misses out on a crucial part of penalizing contact and that is timing, when the impact happens matters a lot. As you mentioned previously you can get pushbacks just on starts from having 10 karts pushing you. I've been thinking of a concept of a load cell measuring impact sizes on the front bumper and logging that data locally on the kart with time stamps of when the impact was relative to starting of the kart. That way the race officials can look at the impact size and make reference to on track footage and incidents.
I remember talking with you about some of your ideas at the track. It would be nice to have that info as long as the timestamp is reliable and cant be manipulated. Also, just because it happened before the start doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be counted as a pushback. Contact before the start is still in the drivers hands. If cost and reliability can be delt with then it would be a better system than pushbacks at least.
A timer that forces you to go off throttle for 5-10 secs within the next 45 secs. Long enough that it matters depending on corners/breaking distance. If not met, cut ignition by 50% for 10 secs. Should allow driver toxhoose safe place to take penalty, incl raised hand.
It would likely be safer to have a lane on a straightaway designated for serving penalties like that. Any slowing on track like that is problematic. Also… again. Cost of development and implementation is a major hurdle. Officiating and tools to help officiating are better, less expensive investments.
Yes sir. In 1994 or 1995 I launched off the rear bumper of #22 Ryan Vella heading down the short straight out of corner 8 at Goodwood Kartways. I went one way. The chassis went another. My shoe kept going and the engine was found somewhere in between. I ended up with a good gash on my foot from my shoe hooking on my fibreglass fearing but luckily I landed forearm first into the grass. They banned fibreglass bodywork after that.
I think we should simply rely less on a system. We’ve seen that in CKNA, whether it’s you or any other race director there is much less issues with contact. And when there is contact you guys make the same calls without that assistance of the PBB. No need for a Push Back system which punish drivers which may not deserve a penalty when there is a race director and other Marshalls to help determine if a penalty is warranted.
I’m with you. The strictness of CKNA punishments are its strength. And I agree that an official with eyes on the track or watching a video should be making the call. A system could be used to assist if it is reliable and closely controlled. Unfortunately the PBB isn’t that. And I don’t think the other ideas are that either.
Race directors are bias towards drivers they know and like, I have witnessed this first hand though out the years. Can't rely on them to see everything going on, or corner workers (parents, family, friends) not relaying correct info to race directors. I don't have the answers but reliable non-bias race directors aren't the answer. IMO.
@@OakmanOnRacing100% I think it’s a possibility to train corner Marshalls to make these calls with confidence of the race director, and if it isn’t possible I think in the near future many tracks will hopefully go to a camera system where if an incident happens and the race director cannot make a decision they can go to that system and watch back the incident. But PBB simply do not work with all the ways people have gotten around the intended purpose. Bringing a camera system to the actual track not only makes making calls easier but it also gives the racers confidence of racing at that given track which hypothetically will bring more drivers to said track which can make it worth that investment for the track.
We have learned that implementing a change to the physical kart will not solve anything. Dirty drivers will be dirty so why not make it fair for everyone and get rid of a system which tends to fail and let people get away with more if they take the time and effort to cheat the system
I suggest not invoking the death of children to make your point, given the current sets of bodywork absolutely doesn't prevent that from happening absolutely. If you're going to invoke that kind of stuff you need to argue why having karts without roll cages, impact structures, and harnesses is fine and the current risk level, which isn't zero, is acceptable. In fact you have to argue why kids should be allowed to race karts, at all.
I don’t have to do any such things. Since you missed the point let me clarify. I am responding to the people who think any measure designed to improve safety is an a-front to the “purity” of kart racing. They think more danger is the answer to all of racing… and societies woes and want all existing safety measures - like bodywork - removed. It is an extreme position to take and one that will not stop contact in racing. It only increases the likelihood of injuries.
@OakmanOnRacing it is not extreme in comparison to other motorsport. A bodyworkless kart is still infintely safer than a motorbike. The point is that once you invoke imagery of child fatality, you have to be willing to state what level you find acceptable because I can tell you with modern karts that the risk isn't zero. So one could argue that current karting is 'extreme'. In terms of participants, we should be free to race what we like. I have done it all and have no issue with bodywork free karts. If others don't, fine. With kids, however? Well, maybe the sport of junior karting might not be appropriate, full stop. I noticed you dodged my question of what level of risk you think is appropriate for children. It is actionable today, reducing speeds, adding a roll bar, crash structure, belts, HANS etc... Are you pushing go on that?
@ no I did. I feel like you went a little extreme on the no rules segment. People are gonna still get into each other. Racers got egos after all. I wonder if there is a reel study on injuries now vs pre 90s? I’m sure most of this all boils down to insurance. Implement a point system that when reached means they have to race with a restricted slide for a period of time. This goes back to officials though.
Why we don't just use laptimer-data especially the acceleratiosn sensor therefore. Almost every drive have anyway already mounted one on the steeering wheel. All crashes are recorded by the amplitude. Higher amplitude = higher penalty. Or was the driver in the front brakechecking; so give the driver in the front the penalty.
Thats an interesting idea. They are pretty reliable and consistent. In the Kartsport rulebook we can even reference a laptime in qualifying of a series transponder failed. I’ll bring this idea up at our next meeting and investigate feasibility.
Next time the kart tries to go to peak revs, the engine can only go up to 90%. Maybe even a second time gets capped at 80% and so on But whatever debilitation of a kart is actually chosen (disable throttle, affect brakes) there needs to be a warning light on the back so it doesn’t cause a surprise.
That kind of system is complicated and expensive. Rental facilities have it but implementing it in racing creates an incentive for teams and drivers to mess with it. Also, the danger of having a kart suddenly slow is a problem that a light wont fix. A dedicated lane might work for that but, in that case, a drive through penalty is probably better.
There should be no means to avoid anything as such.... Pilots should learn to drive
In club racing you get wildly different experience levels. It is where people learn.
How about learning how to race? When I raced Karts and taught at Jim Hall race craft was the most important thing. We didn't bump much because you really couldn't. Officials are not the answer, schools and learning how to race are.
Expecting all participants to afford racing schools and coaches takes kart racing out of the reach of a lot of people. Clubs should be offering some kind of basics but that is generally focused on getting around the track and not racecraft itself. That means that learning racecraft comes down to experience on track and from enforcement by officials to steer drivers in the right direction. That is the reality of hobby and amateur sport.
Lowering the throttle to 10% for 5-10 seconds seems fair. It can be electromechanically activated to restrict fuel/air.
A light can be mounted for when it's activated to let other drivers know to avoid that kart.
Marshals can check the system it's working in before the race with a force meter.
Cost and complexity. Cost of making the parts, ensuring tight tolerances, compliance, etc. both two and four cycle engines use mechanically operated and metered carbs. Adapting them to electronic control is going to be a bigger task than you may be giving it credit for.
@@OakmanOnRacing not electronically controlled but electromechanically. Ie passive electronics, eg
Switch by the bumper, if moved it will trigger a relay which actuates a valve. The valve is regulated to shut to x volume/min. All karts should be able to have adaptors to adapt to said valve device.
Relay can be a timed event ie it can be disengaged after the circuit breaks, or if you deform the bumper so much it keeps the switch on, you'll need to go to the pits to get it fixed.
I assume 2 and 4 cylinders don't race in the same class, they can have different models on volume/min to keep it at consistant max throttle allowed.
weeeh, you liked my camera idea ... *hahah :) i kind of made it up along the way, never the less, it still better than most other solutions, because the other ones can be abused by the driver in front with the "break testing" method... giving the driver behind a penalty for something they could not avoid.
This is why it should be a judge decision, delivered with video to be reviewed ... i promise, there wont be much to review after the race if the first two heats during the weekends are judged fairly hard.
And the great thing about a wireless system would be that the video's would arrive during race, so they could even hand out the penalties during the race as well.
Yes, running wireless gear and camera's are expensive, and it needs to be uploaded to servers etc. And yeah, i guess it would be expensive... but another way of viewing it is; imagine that you put 250.000 ...€ into a season, and you get punted off in the finale, and the guy behind you gets the place in the F3 seating, and you dont ... but you where the faster driver always - how fair is this? So when stakes gets higher - the willingness to cheat also gets higher - which is why the black flag and more power to the officials of cause is a given throughout all this - yes Officials are actually allowed to call out a black flag - un-sportmanship behavior, you can pack up your shit and go home.
Camera on each nosecone would be enough in my view - next to it should be a LED light system, light should be green when not activated and red for 20s if activated - should be placed so driver can see the red light.
This way they know that they clicked the bumper and it can be checked by officials pretty fast.
Since the wireless is in the open, you would need a booster on the antenna's for the system, the camera's / checking system would need to connect to the wireless network, but remember that ins only last 30s. video that is uploaded from the kart who got the clicker activated. and the clicker would probably go off on the back bumper of the one in front, and the front on the one behind.
30s video uploaded to small NAS - doesnt require much computer to handle. Creating and coding a review queue system with a tagging code pr. kart etc. would be the fun part....
The Camera's on the karts dont need much storage either - a small battery + a bit of coded electronics + some wifi .... a RasPie would come far.... and look and behold, a raspie survailance camera based upon "alarms":
www.nabto.com/create-webrtc-accessible-raspberry-pi-camera-with-nabto/
16€ for at Raspie Wireless + battery + camera + sd card. Pr kart.
Then the micro switches - which of 8 should be enough to cover a kart.
Then you would need wireless coverage, where range can be extended with +10db antennas, and a small laptop + some software to handle the reported incidents.
Honestly i dont think it that much of a pain.
The camera's should cover so that feets on pedals and steering wheel is visible.
And any footage should be auto deleted afterwards, so that its still the officials who do the penalty work, and not the social medias afterwards.
This is my personal opinion....
Uploads from karts could also be cached til after the race, and uploaded during the park ferme time after each race and through the weight-in after race...
the great part of all this is that you dont have to check for noses after the race - but as a finishing action so ensure all had the system on, the drivers would not be free from the karts before their noses had been activated in the pits before weight in ... so all could do a start and finish activation - this would have ensured that the system was on during the race if made correct.
I think a purely mechanical mechanism would be the most ideal method of determining impact from kart to kart I think it misses out on a crucial part of penalizing contact and that is timing, when the impact happens matters a lot. As you mentioned previously you can get pushbacks just on starts from having 10 karts pushing you. I've been thinking of a concept of a load cell measuring impact sizes on the front bumper and logging that data locally on the kart with time stamps of when the impact was relative to starting of the kart. That way the race officials can look at the impact size and make reference to on track footage and incidents.
I remember talking with you about some of your ideas at the track. It would be nice to have that info as long as the timestamp is reliable and cant be manipulated. Also, just because it happened before the start doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be counted as a pushback. Contact before the start is still in the drivers hands. If cost and reliability can be delt with then it would be a better system than pushbacks at least.
A timer that forces you to go off throttle for 5-10 secs within the next 45 secs. Long enough that it matters depending on corners/breaking distance. If not met, cut ignition by 50% for 10 secs.
Should allow driver toxhoose safe place to take penalty, incl raised hand.
It would likely be safer to have a lane on a straightaway designated for serving penalties like that. Any slowing on track like that is problematic. Also… again. Cost of development and implementation is a major hurdle. Officiating and tools to help officiating are better, less expensive investments.
Have you ever been launched in the air . It happen to me years ago before nose cones and side pods and full rear bumpers .
Yes sir. In 1994 or 1995 I launched off the rear bumper of #22 Ryan Vella heading down the short straight out of corner 8 at Goodwood Kartways. I went one way. The chassis went another. My shoe kept going and the engine was found somewhere in between. I ended up with a good gash on my foot from my shoe hooking on my fibreglass fearing but luckily I landed forearm first into the grass. They banned fibreglass bodywork after that.
I think we should simply rely less on a system. We’ve seen that in CKNA, whether it’s you or any other race director there is much less issues with contact. And when there is contact you guys make the same calls without that assistance of the PBB. No need for a Push Back system which punish drivers which may not deserve a penalty when there is a race director and other Marshalls to help determine if a penalty is warranted.
I’m with you. The strictness of CKNA punishments are its strength. And I agree that an official with eyes on the track or watching a video should be making the call. A system could be used to assist if it is reliable and closely controlled. Unfortunately the PBB isn’t that. And I don’t think the other ideas are that either.
Race directors are bias towards drivers they know and like, I have witnessed this first hand though out the years. Can't rely on them to see everything going on, or corner workers (parents, family, friends) not relaying correct info to race directors. I don't have the answers but reliable non-bias race directors aren't the answer. IMO.
Are the answer, auto correct.
@@OakmanOnRacing100% I think it’s a possibility to train corner Marshalls to make these calls with confidence of the race director, and if it isn’t possible I think in the near future many tracks will hopefully go to a camera system where if an incident happens and the race director cannot make a decision they can go to that system and watch back the incident. But PBB simply do not work with all the ways people have gotten around the intended purpose. Bringing a camera system to the actual track not only makes making calls easier but it also gives the racers confidence of racing at that given track which hypothetically will bring more drivers to said track which can make it worth that investment for the track.
We have learned that implementing a change to the physical kart will not solve anything. Dirty drivers will be dirty so why not make it fair for everyone and get rid of a system which tends to fail and let people get away with more if they take the time and effort to cheat the system
I suggest not invoking the death of children to make your point, given the current sets of bodywork absolutely doesn't prevent that from happening absolutely. If you're going to invoke that kind of stuff you need to argue why having karts without roll cages, impact structures, and harnesses is fine and the current risk level, which isn't zero, is acceptable. In fact you have to argue why kids should be allowed to race karts, at all.
I don’t have to do any such things. Since you missed the point let me clarify. I am responding to the people who think any measure designed to improve safety is an a-front to the “purity” of kart racing. They think more danger is the answer to all of racing… and societies woes and want all existing safety measures - like bodywork - removed. It is an extreme position to take and one that will not stop contact in racing. It only increases the likelihood of injuries.
@OakmanOnRacing it is not extreme in comparison to other motorsport. A bodyworkless kart is still infintely safer than a motorbike.
The point is that once you invoke imagery of child fatality, you have to be willing to state what level you find acceptable because I can tell you with modern karts that the risk isn't zero. So one could argue that current karting is 'extreme'.
In terms of participants, we should be free to race what we like. I have done it all and have no issue with bodywork free karts. If others don't, fine.
With kids, however? Well, maybe the sport of junior karting might not be appropriate, full stop.
I noticed you dodged my question of what level of risk you think is appropriate for children. It is actionable today, reducing speeds, adding a roll bar, crash structure, belts, HANS etc...
Are you pushing go on that?
Get rid of all the body work and make the karts truly open wheel. Rear bumpers should still expose the rear wheels.
Someone didn’t watch the whole video.
@ no I did. I feel like you went a little extreme on the no rules segment. People are gonna still get into each other. Racers got egos after all. I wonder if there is a reel study on injuries now vs pre 90s? I’m sure most of this all boils down to insurance. Implement a point system that when reached means they have to race with a restricted slide for a period of time. This goes back to officials though.
Why we don't just use laptimer-data especially the acceleratiosn sensor therefore. Almost every drive have anyway already mounted one on the steeering wheel. All crashes are recorded by the amplitude. Higher amplitude = higher penalty. Or was the driver in the front brakechecking; so give the driver in the front the penalty.
Thats an interesting idea. They are pretty reliable and consistent. In the Kartsport rulebook we can even reference a laptime in qualifying of a series transponder failed. I’ll bring this idea up at our next meeting and investigate feasibility.
Next time the kart tries to go to peak revs, the engine can only go up to 90%. Maybe even a second time gets capped at 80% and so on
But whatever debilitation of a kart is actually chosen (disable throttle, affect brakes) there needs to be a warning light on the back so it doesn’t cause a surprise.
That kind of system is complicated and expensive. Rental facilities have it but implementing it in racing creates an incentive for teams and drivers to mess with it. Also, the danger of having a kart suddenly slow is a problem that a light wont fix. A dedicated lane might work for that but, in that case, a drive through penalty is probably better.