Lyle, thanks for pointing this out so I can refer this vid to my customers when I have to do the same thing. I have had One not believe the readings I showed him.
I am working on a '67 deluxe reverb that has this same issue. I spent an hour steaming smoke tar out of the front grille already. I am replacing it with the insulated and cloth covered wire from amplified parts so it gets some modern insulation and doesn't look too out of place.
So lyle what is the behavior you are speaking of? Funny noises? It just doesn’t sound right etc etc?? Inquiring minds wanta know. My twin I bought in '95 used to make flame sounds, radio stations from other countries, high pitch squeals that would go up and down, like it was dialed into ham radio. Ha. We all love your fix it bathroom stuff man. You inspire us all to keep chugging without calling in the A Team. And if you can find them...
Wiki: Paraffin wax is an excellent electrical insulator, with a resistivity of between 1013 and 1017 ohm-metre.[10] This is better than nearly all other materials except some plastics (notably PTFE). (*Wikipedia and the 1965 Mc Graw-Hill Electrical Engineer's Handbook). I can't find any real specs for Gavitt wire. You can use oil pastels as far matching the colors of the old wire with new Gavitt wire. Cloth Gavitt wire insulation already has wax in it, so you are not adding anything that isn't already there, and old the wax might be why the old insulation became conductive. You can also rewax the old wire with paraffin too after soaking in IPA. (alcohol, not ale). Bee's wax will darken the colors and, yes, they used it too and it works, but maybe not quite as well as paraffin, (electrical resistance ranges from 5×1012 to 20×1012 Ωm). These number equate up into the Tera-Ohm range and are from 5-12 tera ohms. (5,000,000,000,000 or 5 million Meg-Ohms. Ohm-meter is a cubic meter of wax with 1 meter copper plates on opposite sides, tested with Meg-Ohm meter or a resistance bridge. My GR bridge tests at 1000 volts and reads into the Tera Ohm range. General Radio also made THE Variac, and a great old LCR Bridge, that I can't afford.
What a fine example of inductance coupling . Given what the signal level that a big problem IMHO. Cotton insulation can sound good if they are clean and dry . Cloth over a ploy insulation look right and does not have that problem . Knob an tube has the problem however rarely are the wires close and touch .
Most cloth wire from the ‘50s/‘60s is fine. And the stuff I’ll be putting in should be good another 50 years. So the short answer is for gigging/recording this is far from a deal breaker. After ‘69 Fender went to stranded with a plastic jacket. And that stuff rots where any non-tinned strands have been exposed to air. In a new build I’d use 600 deg top coat or telfon coated stranded. But this isn’t a new build.
Being one who was always not much sold on the whole "vintage" sales pitch; yes, there should be a few pristine examples of historic gear as museum pieces for posterity. But old or new, an amp or guitar that is meant to be played should be kept in it's best working order. If something needs to be done that will change its performance drastically, that's certainly a cause for consideration. But just because it's old doesn't mean much at all to me dollar-wise if it doesn't work well. As I've said before; "vintage" is just a sales pitch word to make "old" sound more expensive. And it works - very well. It shifts the balance of supply and demand in play by convincing players that having the original knobs (even though the numbers are now hard to read) makes a $500 difference in the value compared to having replaced the knobs. I've heard many more amps of more recent years that perform way better than some that were old and "cherished". There are some real magical guitars out there. And lots of people will swear that, having played a '59 burst, "man, it plays and sounds the best." I wonder how often they would come to the same conclusion if they'd been comparing to a new version blindfolded. 🙂 If this amp is meant to be played - - - - - .... oh, our star player has a dislocated shoulder.... NO, don't reset it and let it heal!!! He needs to be original in order to be his best, and this is just part of the natural aging of a player................
I have a Fender Vibrolux fortunately the cables are still good after 64 years. If i have to change the yellow Astrons because they become leaky will i hear a difference between Roederstein 1813 or mallory 150? What are your preferred caps for Tweed restauration? Thank You
+1 fascinating. Not much you can do about it in a pretty old Fender, part of the mojo, as long as it rocks, otherwise sell it to a collector and buy something that rocks. This would be a real problem in vintage hifi where it wouldn't be part of the mojo, I'll have to keep my eye out for it. Thanks.
I love insulation as much as anyone… But is it possible your DDM is showing induced voltage here? What does a resistance measurement reveal? Did you try shunting to see if it disappears?
I watched it a couple times (As usual with your vids!). But I couldn’t see a resistance measurement anywhere. Sometimes my DMM can pick up induced voltage from EM fields in high impedance situations. Just wanted to check that you’d definitively ruled that out. No disrespect intended. And sorry if I missed something.
Easy to sound argumentative in text - not intended on my end. I demonstrated the voltage was on the cloth and “seeped into” the wire. That’s why I showed grounding the yellow cloth and having the voltage on the blue conductor decrease. And from many hundreds of other sixties Fenders, I know this isn’t normal or unavoidable. So all other factors being the same, this isn’t a thing with the meter or the measurement process. It’s just good old fashioned (literally) conductive insulation. ;)
@@PsionicAudio Thanks Lyle. (Same here! Just want to keep learning...) I've come to find that a floating wire (blue) can accumulate a small potential to ground when in close proximity to a high voltage DC wire (yellow). (Electrostatic coupling) And the fact that it dropped the potential right to 0VDC when you grounded one end of the blue wire makes me think the insulation is intact. The stray electrostatic charge goes away, but if the insulation was conductive you'd still see some current flowing?
Lyle, Apologies for putting this here, not sure how else to reach you. I am desperately in need of a 2nd Psionic Audio Triad to join my first unit. Any chance you may have one available? Regards, Frank
@@PsionicAudio Thanks Lyle, I suspected as much. No matter I will try and come up with a work around. I must say, once I fully understood what the Triad can do, for me, it has been utterly indispensable; stunning piece of kit. Thanks for creating it.
Originality matters, but only to the point where it affects performance and reliability. I applaud your attempt to reclaim the original wires but since that wasn't possible, replacing them with a modern substitute seems highly appropriate. I've seen clones kit that brag about including cloth covered wire but I think that's just a bit silly. Cloth insulation provide absolutely no sonic "mojo". It's just about appearance and originality.
This is making up my mind to bite the bullet and do a complete rebuild on an old Fender amp I have with cloth covered wire. It's vintage, but it's not a collector's item. It was shotgunned at some point and the original PT is dead & gone. But worse, the inside is contaminated with some crap that was squirted in the pots or inputs at some point. Under the controls for the trem channel the wire is so impregnated with this stuff that it's wet looking. GLOSSY. Eww. I've been putting it off.
Wow, this is a significant amount of voltage on the outside of those cables! Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
Really great lesson, Lyle. It makes me want to take mine apart and check all the cloth covered wires... but I just can't stop playing the thing! LOL!
Great stuff, I wonder how many techs would go into it thoroughly as you do?
Thanks for sharing this Lyle , Im learning every day something new and very crucial attention to detail from your work
Another master class- thanks for sharing this kind of detail. What prompted you to check for this? Was there excessive noise?
Little occasional glitchy noises, sometimes the sustain and decay sounded unnatural when playing.
Lyle, thanks for pointing this out so I can refer this vid to my customers when I have to do the same thing. I have had One not believe the readings I showed him.
I am working on a '67 deluxe reverb that has this same issue. I spent an hour steaming smoke tar out of the front grille already. I am replacing it with the insulated and cloth covered wire from amplified parts so it gets some modern insulation and doesn't look too out of place.
Very interesting❤
this shall not pass. love it
Your workmanship is fantastic. I would love to send my amp to you in the future to be modded.
Who'd have thought? Thanks for bringing this up.
Your attention to detail is the stuff of legends Lyle. Don’t stop!
What is the best sort of insulated wire to use in an amp, disregarding looks?
So lyle what is the behavior you are speaking of? Funny noises? It just doesn’t sound right etc etc?? Inquiring minds wanta know. My twin I bought in '95 used to make flame sounds, radio stations from other countries, high pitch squeals that would go up and down, like it was dialed into ham radio. Ha.
We all love your fix it bathroom stuff man. You inspire us all to keep chugging without calling in the A Team. And if you can find them...
Really useful. Thanks, Lyle!
I almost forgot what an amp looked like. Experience and knowledge on display.
those lead pipes gotta go!
Wiki: Paraffin wax is an excellent electrical insulator, with a resistivity of between 1013 and 1017 ohm-metre.[10] This is better than nearly all other materials except some plastics (notably PTFE). (*Wikipedia and the 1965 Mc Graw-Hill Electrical Engineer's Handbook). I can't find any real specs for Gavitt wire. You can use oil pastels as far matching the colors of the old wire with new Gavitt wire. Cloth Gavitt wire insulation already has wax in it, so you are not adding anything that isn't already there, and old the wax might be why the old insulation became conductive. You can also rewax the old wire with paraffin too after soaking in IPA. (alcohol, not ale). Bee's wax will darken the colors and, yes, they used it too and it works, but maybe not quite as well as paraffin, (electrical resistance ranges from 5×1012 to 20×1012 Ωm). These number equate up into the Tera-Ohm range and are from 5-12 tera ohms. (5,000,000,000,000 or 5 million Meg-Ohms. Ohm-meter is a cubic meter of wax with 1 meter copper plates on opposite sides, tested with Meg-Ohm meter or a resistance bridge. My GR bridge tests at 1000 volts and reads into the Tera Ohm range. General Radio also made THE Variac, and a great old LCR Bridge, that I can't afford.
Great to see you Sir.
Fascinating
Thats crazy!
So what’s the most effective insulated wire?
Mahalo Lyle!
Legend
What a fine example of inductance coupling . Given what the signal level that a big problem IMHO. Cotton insulation can sound good if they are clean and dry . Cloth over a ploy insulation look right and does not have that problem . Knob an tube has the problem however rarely are the wires close and touch .
Outside of collectors, is there any reason to stick with cloth covered wires? Say, this amp was for someone gigging or recording?
Most cloth wire from the ‘50s/‘60s is fine. And the stuff I’ll be putting in should be good another 50 years. So the short answer is for gigging/recording this is far from a deal breaker.
After ‘69 Fender went to stranded with a plastic jacket. And that stuff rots where any non-tinned strands have been exposed to air.
In a new build I’d use 600 deg top coat or telfon coated stranded. But this isn’t a new build.
Being one who was always not much sold on the whole "vintage" sales pitch; yes, there should be a few pristine examples of historic gear as museum pieces for posterity.
But old or new, an amp or guitar that is meant to be played should be kept in it's best working order. If something needs to be done that will change its performance drastically, that's certainly a cause for consideration. But just because it's old doesn't mean much at all to me dollar-wise if it doesn't work well. As I've said before; "vintage" is just a sales pitch word to make "old" sound more expensive. And it works - very well. It shifts the balance of supply and demand in play by convincing players that having the original knobs (even though the numbers are now hard to read) makes a $500 difference in the value compared to having replaced the knobs.
I've heard many more amps of more recent years that perform way better than some that were old and "cherished". There are some real magical guitars out there. And lots of people will swear that, having played a '59 burst, "man, it plays and sounds the best." I wonder how often they would come to the same conclusion if they'd been comparing to a new version blindfolded. 🙂
If this amp is meant to be played - - - - - .... oh, our star player has a dislocated shoulder.... NO, don't reset it and let it heal!!! He needs to be original in order to be his best, and this is just part of the natural aging of a player................
Could (just a thought) you put shielded wires with the shield grounded and the wires covered with the yellow and blue cloth to keep it looking nice?
Attention to detail at 150%!
I have a Fender Vibrolux fortunately the cables are still good after 64 years. If i have to change the yellow Astrons because they become leaky will i hear a difference between Roederstein 1813 or mallory 150? What are your preferred caps for Tweed restauration? Thank You
I prefer the 1813 because the leads are nicer and the finishing is much more consistent. Both sound great in that amp.
Thank you very much!
One more question 😊 will i hear a difference between 1813 and lets say expensive paper in oil caps in the vibrolux? is it worth it. Greetings
+1 fascinating. Not much you can do about it in a pretty old Fender, part of the mojo, as long as it rocks, otherwise sell it to a collector and buy something that rocks. This would be a real problem in vintage hifi where it wouldn't be part of the mojo, I'll have to keep my eye out for it. Thanks.
Can cloth covered wire be soaked in something that would dry and harden into a decent insulator? Not sure what that substance would be.
Faster/cheaper to replace.
I love insulation as much as anyone… But is it possible your DDM is showing induced voltage here? What does a resistance measurement reveal? Did you try shunting to see if it disappears?
Did you watch the whole video?
I watched it a couple times (As usual with your vids!). But I couldn’t see a resistance measurement anywhere. Sometimes my DMM can pick up induced voltage from EM fields in high impedance situations. Just wanted to check that you’d definitively ruled that out. No disrespect intended. And sorry if I missed something.
Easy to sound argumentative in text - not intended on my end.
I demonstrated the voltage was on the cloth and “seeped into” the wire. That’s why I showed grounding the yellow cloth and having the voltage on the blue conductor decrease.
And from many hundreds of other sixties Fenders, I know this isn’t normal or unavoidable.
So all other factors being the same, this isn’t a thing with the meter or the measurement process.
It’s just good old fashioned (literally) conductive insulation. ;)
@@PsionicAudio Thanks Lyle. (Same here! Just want to keep learning...) I've come to find that a floating wire (blue) can accumulate a small potential to ground when in close proximity to a high voltage DC wire (yellow). (Electrostatic coupling) And the fact that it dropped the potential right to 0VDC when you grounded one end of the blue wire makes me think the insulation is intact. The stray electrostatic charge goes away, but if the insulation was conductive you'd still see some current flowing?
Lyle, Apologies for putting this here, not sure how else to reach you. I am desperately in need of a 2nd Psionic Audio Triad to join my first unit. Any chance you may have one available? Regards, Frank
No, sorry Frank.
@@PsionicAudio Thanks Lyle, I suspected as much. No matter I will try and come up with a work around. I must say, once I fully understood what the Triad can do, for me, it has been utterly indispensable; stunning piece of kit. Thanks for creating it.
Can't understand why people insist on using cloth covered wire in new builds. Great video Lyle!
I believe this is a vintage piece.
It looks cool, and apparently takes 60 years and a lot of smoke to degrade.
That means I’ll be around 100 when I need to start worrying about my amp
@@WilliamPayneNZ sorry I meant in general
@ no worries. I figured that was what you meant.
Nice amp fo sure
Originality matters, but only to the point where it affects performance and reliability. I applaud your attempt to reclaim the original wires but since that wasn't possible, replacing them with a modern substitute seems highly appropriate. I've seen clones kit that brag about including cloth covered wire but I think that's just a bit silly. Cloth insulation provide absolutely no sonic "mojo". It's just about appearance and originality.
Sorry Lyle I didn't watch all off your remodle videos I done that stuff for 40 yrs and I've seen enough good job though 👍
Wouldn’t that be anhydrous alcohol? Isopropyl alcohol is saturated with water.
Pure isopropanol has absolutely no water. The "rubbing alcohol" one might buy from a drug store has up to 30% water.
Pure Isopropyl has no water content but is highly hygroscopic and will absorb water from the atmosphere over time.
This is making up my mind to bite the bullet and do a complete rebuild on an old Fender amp I have with cloth covered wire. It's vintage, but it's not a collector's item. It was shotgunned at some point and the original PT is dead & gone. But worse, the inside is contaminated with some crap that was squirted in the pots or inputs at some point. Under the controls for the trem channel the wire is so impregnated with this stuff that it's wet looking. GLOSSY. Eww. I've been putting it off.
Dang! I'd be scared to even plug that amp in to the outlet let alone turn it on.
That’s pretty scary, no? Seems like an excessive amount of electrical energy conducting through an amp. Can’t be good. Very interesting find
It’s not a lot. Enough to affect the sound/performance but not enough to cause any damage.
Cloth covered wires cannot make any amp sound any better. But they can make it sound worse, or even make it malfunction.
That's what happens when you play a lot of metal through your amp. dvv dvv
So, you are saying amplifiers are like clams. They filter the environment and make the world a better place!
Period correct is functionally nonsense when it no longer does the job.