2nd Law of Thermodynamics explained: Things get more random over time | Stephen Wolfram
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Stephen Wolfram: ChatG...
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GUEST BIO:
Stephen Wolfram is a computer scientist, mathematician, theoretical physicist, and the founder of Wolfram Research, a company behind Wolfram|Alpha, Wolfram Language, and the Wolfram Physics and Metamathematics projects.
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Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/PdE-waSx-d8/w-d-xo.html
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Guest bio: Stephen Wolfram is a computer scientist, mathematician, theoretical physicist, and the founder of Wolfram Research, a company behind Wolfram|Alpha, Wolfram Language, and the Wolfram Physics and Metamathematics projects.
😊
The only podcast with 50+ minute clips. God bless you Lex, this was a great conversation.
Speed 2x
Enjoying second round. Four timer really got going in the hour 3 & 4. Big quantum talk fan. Didn't think I could adore Lex more, but do so with Every STEM Guest.
50 min is short for lex lol.
Lex does 3hrs easy all the time
A bit like with the movie "The Irishman" (2019). The trailer was 88 minutes long.
It takes a lot of balls to interview an intellect as intense and verse as this. Well done Lex
They seem to have a good rapport and Stephen respects Lex; that makes all the difference for interviews with some of the smartest humans currently occupying meat space. Also, the fact he has spent 3+ hours of his time with Lex for each interview should not be forgetten. It is cool that we get to hear conversations like this on a regular basis.
Why is that. It takes no balls to be curious, seems to be a natural human state.
I feel like whatever that feeling is, it’s a negative affect of schooling (something i’m without much of) which in my estimation comes from a fear of being wrong. But tell me if I’m off, it’s just the direction my shrug goes, but it’s a shrug.
@@MackNcD I think you have to be a very ignorant person to not be humbled or at the least nervous interviewing one of the smartest humans currently existing on the planet. I think you are looking at it more from the perspective of just having a personal conversation with this guy, which you should still probably haver similar feelings or you just don't understand who Stephen Wolfram is. You wouldn't be nervous talking to Einstein, Feynman or Schrodinger? Because, Stephen is of the same modern equivalency.
@@HArryvajonasnot according to Sean carrroll…when wolfram was on his podcast, carrrol began with a monologue which implied that all wolfram was going to do was rediscover quantum mechanix…carrol, wolfram, all these “geniuses” are very secretly jealous of each other as they try in vain to work out a theory of everything…all secretly afraid that they will waste their efforts on complicated roundabouts like string theory
Просто размышления.Насколько талант рассказчика и то что Ваш Гость постоянно использует свой личный жизненный опыт ,позволяют информацию,превратить в увлекательную историю ,когда даже 4 часов мало....Спасибо Вам.
Господин Вольфрам действительно очаровывающий рассказчик, его размеренный, но непрерывный темп превращает его личный опыт в историю, рассказанную у костра.
Ура! Нашел русскоязычную комментарию)
At 0:35 he meant to say heat doesn't spontaneously flow from a colder body to a hotter one.
Which technically is what the third law states
Which technically is not what the third law states
@@BarackObamaJediThese are not the laws you’re looking for.😉
Just what I thought he made a mistake.
Not unless the system is work negative.
You’re doing a great job Lex. The mathematical, physical and philosophical complexities of the second law are mind blowing.
The short story 'The Last Question' by Isaac Asimov is about the end result of entropy
It's amazing
Entropy doesn’t end. It may remain low. The 3rd law of thermodynamics even remains contentious
Interesting
Insufficient data for meaningful answer! One of my favorite stories! Great ending!
If they were to exist, computationally unbounded systems would cover the whole space of all possible computations, and this would effectively bring about their own annihilation in the process. We could perhaps draw an interesting analogy between this computational perspective and the familiar philosophical idea according to which universal existence would actually be the same as nonexistence. In other words, if you want to say that something exists, then you have to make necessary restrictions to the range of the specific variable you are dealing with, in this case when using the predicate "to exist" to describe the every object in the universal set that is the universe itself. So, by this picture we could say that existence presupposes computational boundedness, and computational boundedness implies the distinction between different states of things, as well as the presence of abstract formal rules that govern their mutual relationships, but which are otherwise computationally irreducible from the perspective of computationally bounded observers.
Lex, you bring order to the universe with these talks. Thank you.
BTW: Was his collection of physics books by the great Landau and Lifshitz? We need to give credit where credit is due!
At 32.24 Wolfram asks what is the analog of Brownian Motion that would suggest that Space is discrete.
There are a number of contenders, they seem to abound... where effects in the vacuum are (currently) said to occur spontaneously.
Brownian Motion was also once taken as a spontaneous effect, because its cause was not known at the time.
One contender may be Spontaneous Symmetry-Breaking... which is an effect observed in lowest-energy vacuum solutions.
Very interesting & informative. Thank you both.
I loved learning about physics, but learning about it through the lens of history and what kind of ideas physicists were throwing around at the time which initiated the spark of a breakthrough new idea by one of them we all read about in textbooks gives it so much more meaning. I could listen to “physics history” lectures for hours
Its set theory behind second law.Throw two dice and the most common sum is 7. Every combination of these dice is unique but the number 7 is the sum of the most of these combinations.
Sum 2 = { (1,1) }
Sum 12 = { (6,6) }
Sum 3 = { (1,2),(2,1) }
Sum 11 = { (6,5),(5,6) }
Sum 4 = { (2,2),(1,3),(3,1) }
Sum 10 = { (5,5),(4,6),(6,4) }
.
.
.
Sum 7 = { (1,6),(6,1),(2,5),(5,2),(3,4),(4,3) }
I’ve been thinking even if we were not computationaly bound, and knowing the exact position and velocity of all particles in a system, Heisenbegs uncertanty principle would not allow us to know the outcome of any interaction other than in a statistical way. So this to me harmonise with the idea that our reality is the statistical average of the muliverse posibilities. So the manyworlds is realy only one, the one we are so happy to experience?
🤔
Isn’t entropy just the fact there are more ways to be disordered than ordered, so down to probability in a random system? A cloud of ink molecules have billions of ways to disperse (high chance) vs. being directed in reverse back to the original drop of ink (very low chance).
I have the same intuition too, I wonder if it's right
Yes. I think that we are bound to our own definitions of "ordered" and "disordered".
These definitions are set by the observer, and are part of the initial state of the system at the start of the observation. The initial conditions also include the state and forces and actors of the environment where the observation takes place. I think it is more a battle of definitions in a world of limited knowledge. If the end result means that we have predicted earlier, then observed a new phenomenon, then the science offered more accurately describes our reality, and I do not have knowlwdge of such a thing being the ruliad. Wolfram's tools are powerful in terms of math and computations when used in research and simulations, but I do not know of his theory predicting any new worldly phenomenon. Wolfram is trying to encapsulate a complete picture of reality based on math and nature science, as we understand them today. I admire him for his end goal but I am not convinced the ruliad is a cure-all theory
It's about all energy leveling out
That's pretty much how u calculate it mathematically yes
Or rather simply as a truly wholistic systematization I have spent 40+ years conceptualizing, as coherently recursively looping, superIMposing systemS, which intrinsically integralize symmetry breaking, as subsequently in all probabilities, coming back around again, relatively soon. 😮
Entropy almost always increases.
- Ludwig Boltzmann
What about lightening? Doesn't it create order and isn't electrical fields everywhere?
Can anybody please elaborate how discreetness influence the story? If matter was not discrete, what would be the consequence for entropy and reality? I’ve read something about week bonds, but can’t really close the gap as how week bonds are important for reality to be the way it is. Non discrete reality would mean we live in a sort of ether and that would halt the dissipation of energy as entropy describes it?
This was very stimulating THANK YOU ❤️🙏🏾
I often wonder what it is like to have an intellect, a cognitive mind, like Wolfram's. All I can do is just listen and admire.
The concept of order and disorder could be a function of the observer
Nice conversation! Ruliad - entangled limit of everything that is computationally possible.
Many thanks Lex for giving us the chance to a long listen to this very active and great man- Stephen.
Great into to know that Gibs energy equation is an American contribution.
Stephen’s one of my favourite people, and that’s not for his intelligence but the fact that he seems so nice.
I’m probably missing something basic, but if all reality is discrete, how does each discrete fundamental unit “know” about the other units and interact with them?
There is a reason why this guy remains the youngest winner of the Marshall award.
Insane level of intelligence, and applied intellect.
I am still waiting for an explanation.
Straight to the point that's intriguing about you
Is it possible to share the timestamp in the description, im listening to the full cast now and would skip over what i listened to here.
Very much enjoyed this convo Lex Thanks!
17:00
"A trillion trillion trillion times more than in this room, a little less"
Quote of the year
If only wolfram could string a whole sentence together.
Very good insight isto one of the greatest misteries of the Universe..2nd Law of Termodynamics
According to serious experts on thermodynamics, the order/disorder mantra verges on meaninglessness. That Stephen recites it suggests that he hasn't really thought about the matter, and hasn't read the serious experts. The preferable story is that energy spreads or disperses itself. Clausius used the word 'disgregation', which means much the same thing.
Or energy just spends itself
@@electricityofmind6300 I think 'energy expends itself' is too loose a way of speaking. You could better say 'given an opportunity, free energy expends itself'.
Over the time frame of existence of a quantum system, the energy will always go from high to low, and entropy from low to high.
This limitation of computationally bound observers sounds like some sort of uncertainty principle, or a manifestation of it in large macroscopic systems. New corny joke: the second law of thermodynamics, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and computational irreducibility walked into a bar, that turned out to be a black hole. They all got sucked into a singularity.
Super interesting, it felt like it was over before I knew it.
Is not the point that anyway you choose to prepare the disorder, to create order, you will loose enough order to eventually end up with less order? Else perpetuum mobile?
To call it disorder is inaccurate. Think of entropy as the loss of potential energy. Commonly, this is seen as orderly things becoming disordered, but even when crystals grow spontaneously from a solution, _this is also_ an increase of entropy! The molecules are becoming more 'comfortable' as they come together and in doing so they lose energy in the form of heat, which is the entropy. Physicists believe that the end of the universe will be something called the "heat death." This is when there is zero potential energy left. All the stars have burned out, every chemical reaction has taken place, all the heat is evenly dispersed (or as much as it will ever be) and no more action is possible. There will not simply be chaos however, there will be burned out stars, black holes and whatnot. But there will be zero potential energy and there will be maximum entropy.
Why call it a case of order to disorder? Isn’t the “disorder” just another version of order as the two “things” re-assimilate relative to their surrounding?
Is "dark matter" the stuff between galaxies? Like say you have two galaxies that are 100mln light years apart, all that "space" in between, is that what they are are referring to about dark matter?
When things cool down they generally get more organised. An example is the univers cooling down from the big bang.
Have enjoyed the idea of 'striving to get back to homeostasis'!
i think the organisation comes more from a gravitationnal effect than from a thermal one
ahahahha 52 minutes clip explanation. Love you guys!
21:52, like things attract, life mimics life, order attracts
So the perceived entropy of a system is the consequence of our ignorance of the system?
No. :-)
38 minute mark - In other words; we perceive objects; not elementary particles and rules.
Not random, disorder. An ordered state is just as random as a disordered state.
Bro he wrote the book chill out.
I would like to see Stephen Wolfram more often, much more than E Musk
Our linear computation is not going to work. We need a dynamic computation
Wolfram is really the master of a lot of things, but one thing he is the master of the universe in is Digressions. Here the question is about 2. law of thermodynamics, and he takes us on an hour long journey including what was interested in as a 8 year old! He thinks too fast!
Yeh, shortcuts and less detail when we get older.
@@jannichi6431 that's how u get people confused tho, just look at the comment section to this video, there are so many pre-requisites u need to know to properly understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics, taking shortcuts in science and avoiding the minor details is very bad, and will leave u more confused as a result.
The fourth law of thermodynamics: Stephen is smarter than most people (in such a way as to melt my brain).
And yet we're 14 billion years into the universe, and the rate at which it is getting more complex is increasing exponentially
But it isn't, really. Entropy is always increasing, eventually leading to the heat death of the universe when nothing else can happen.
@@tomaz2007 over a very long timescale sure, but the point I'm making is that the universe seems to be built to increase complexity rather than erode it
@@everything777True. It is called "local escape" from entropy. Amazing.
@@everything777 Uhh. High entropy = high complexity. Both are increasing.
No, it isn't.
"Heat doesn't spontaneously go from a hotter body to a colder one".. yes it does? I think he stated the law precisely backwards
Yes, but perhaps he can excuse it as a slip of the tongue. Though it's still a bit of a shock.
Consider that approaching a 100% efficient system is equivalent to approaching the speed of light.... the closer you get, the harder it is to make gains. Eventually the added complexity you need to squeeze out those last few drops of efficiency costs more than the benefit you would derive from getting there.
Because of this, a perpetual motion machine is equivalent to a faster than light engine
very interesting thoughts, what do you mean by "making gains" and "costing more" ?
38:40 The words he is looking for: “free will”
🎶Memorex Turtles . . . all-the-way-down !🎵🎶
fascinatring - enlightening - great questions
The more information the more it last to execute the comandment. Massive black holes stop the time while on dark space it s been exexcuted at the speed of dark energy.
The expansion of the universe will continue until it doesn’t…at that point in time chaos will begin to reassemble order of stuff…until everything returns to order… and at the point in time everything is compacted as much as possible, again, a new big bang …and, expansion begins again…time moves forward towards chaos and moves backwards towards order…or rather, reorder. It just takes a long time.
If you could prove this you'd win every prize in science there is to be awarded.
Time who among them?
All of life is given by the fractal complxity of viral functions. There is no exception for entropy . A Eienstein stated that all matter life and fore is the interpherese events for energy events. Not much has changed except his therory never got a thumbs up from the PHD (Push Here Dummy) types at verious universities that are financilly motivated.
Yes, given to distribute the living Water throughout dead branches! Yes, dead branches brought back to Life. Instead to be trampled under FEET. Now shared "i" AM branches distributing the Water flows 1 WAY! From Who am I to "i" AM.
Dead branches thy shared "i" AM go share given unto thee!
Students shared "i" AM will say, remember HIS WAYS ARE NOT THY WAYS!
When I hear some of the top scientists, philosophers I feel an overall uncertainty and void. That speaks to the limitation of the mind. You cannot know the truth with your mind. You have to transcend the go inward, activate the inner mind and its extensions connected to the INNER SPACE
If something is "random" how could it be ""more random"?
Students keep watch and given ye my shared "i" AM to quench!
Enlightened people are not computationally bound observers on rule 30
Isn't heat gama rays or did I graduate too long ago
I really didn't think I'd ever have the opportunity to listen to the people I have brilliant thanks sxx
What if the universe before the big bang was orderly, and the big big and the results is the "disorderly"?
Pop and my Host Lex.
... but did't the universe started with a big explosion and then cooling down and bringing more and more order from molecules to life and humans?. at what point that process came to a peak and then we got the law of thermodynamics and entropy...
Everything we see now was very close together at some point in the past. That doesn't mean the universe started then.
Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, always with WHO?
Что значит "rulead"? Примерно по смыслу догадываюсь что это, но сомневаюсь что вполне угадываю.
А. Нашёл.
"А между ними - Великое Ничто, Великие Никто, Нирвана. Рулиад (ruliad) в терминах Стивена Вольфрама."
It isn't universally true though. In the carbon cycle carbon is scattered in the air then becomes orderly in a plant. Why do we discount life when considering the second law?
Not all of us do!
I think it is "local escape" from entropy but not infinite.
One might even say that life is defined by something that participates in the reverse entropy process!
You can create a local decrease in entropy, but it takes energy to do so. The earth, and all plants, collect sunlight as energy, and produce local order in return. Animals eat plants (and other animals), thus collect energy, thus produce order.
The law says entropy increases in a closed system. If you have sunlight coming in from outside and powering things, that's an open system.
My Angels, my Hosts, and our Beautiful just for thee!
Apart from the 13.9 billion years of evolution which has become more complex and integrated over time.
allah's will.
What you're describing is local escape. Locally things can become more ordered at a cost of energy. But taken as a whole, as in: the universe, energy is always spreading out irreversibly. Eventually energy will be distributed so evenly that universal potential energy will reach zero, and no ordering, or indeed motion, will be possible anymore. Local escape will become impossible. Observations universally tell us that all matter used to be closer together, and by the same token, all observations result in matter moving further away, and in an accelerated way, with time.
Entropy has nothing to do with ‘order’. It’s the dispersal of energy
Second law of thermodynamics = Even your Cadillac will rust eventually 😂
The irony is that matter is continuous. Matter is quantum fields and Quantum fields are continuous .
That is what Shivaism says Shiva is, that is fettered unbound consciousness that fettered itself to individualize and therefore be able to play the cosmic drama.
Something bigger than us exists… 51:51
Funny how universal and similar childhood curiosities seem to be... dinosaurs, train/wheel movement, snowflakes, creeks and rivers, stars and galaxies, clouds, etc. nature. My state wants to bring Chaplains to 3rd graders rather than STEM teachers. Four time guests deserve the 'Best of' ranking. Outstanding and humbling. 🤓🫶
"You dont see those little particles of ink in the water spontaneously arrange into a blob and jump out of the water or something." 🫡
“In a closed system” is the important bit.
Is there any real closed system, besides the entire universe?
The universe is a closed system
@@jorgen7180 Is it?
@@bucketheadkfc Yes, the universe is generally considered a closed system in terms of thermodynamics. This means that it does not exchange matter or energy with anything outside of itself because there is no "outside" to the universe in our current understanding.
Was procrastinating learning about thermodynamics, went to watch some lex and found this clip, i guess i can't run away 😂
You can never escape the second law of thermodynamics
@@EthanHaluzaDelay Neither can you escape Newton's third law.
me too
I have followed Stephen Wolfram for most of my adult life and his foundational work got me started using cellular automata for physics simulation in the 1990s. Forces like gravity acting on thousands of particles can be simulated through local interactions. Emergent behaviours like group spin and vortex formation can happen when particle-particle interactions happen on a continuous manifold through the imaginary plane.
Awesome! I’m doing political research with ABMs, they are very iterable very additive, great tools
Vortex formation, Marko Rodin Vortex Math answers this.
@@JeffMccombe-yd3tu nope
Magnetic resonance
"In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most.
Time taken in stocking energy to build an energy system, adding to it the time taken in building the system will always be longer than the entire useful lifetime of the system.
No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores.
No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it.
This universal truth applies to all systems.
Energy, like time, flows from past to future".
For me, from around minute 21 onwards, entropy takes over and go from order to disorder! I'll have to watch it again to see if I can trace the entropy backwards to arrive at order. Great discussion though.
Mine was 38. We'll get there my friend
00:38:48 I wonder if at some point our species colonizes the whole ruliad and near death experiences are just our future selves recording the information horizons of all dead consciousnesses in order to recreate them in a simulation.
Entropy is NOT a measure of "Disorder". That is a long-standing fallacy that goes all the way back to Boltzmann's unfortunate use of the term. Modern textbooks are now being corrected to remove any mention of "Disorder" because that term has far too many everyday connotations to be useful and it has no proper scientific definition. The modern perspective is that "Energy concentrations have a natural tendency to spread out" and it is easy to see why that should be. A localized group of fast-moving molecules would collide with slower molecules in the surrounding space causing a transfer of momentum. The faster molecules slow down and the slower molecules speed up. This process continues as equilibrium is approached.
As for the scrambled egg. Just try feeding it to a hen and marvel at the reassembly into an egg. Leave a sand castle mold upturned in a sand storm and marvel at how fills up with castle-shaped sand. Watch raindrops falling at random on a hillside collect into streams flowing into rivers and the rivers flowing into a nice tidy and well-ordered lake.
Entropy is NOT a measure of "Disorder". It is a measure of how spread out the energy in a closed system is.
Boltzmann himself defined entropy through the complexions of states in phase space such that the system under consideration will generally exist in the state of maximal complexions, by probabilistic arguments. It was also known by that time that all systems eventually return to their initial state, only the time intervals are very long from our perspective and gives the appearance of "always increasing" entropy.
The only physical mystery of this framework was why the universe was/is in a state of low entropy, which can be explained by the Big Bang theory and our experience being relatively close to the beginning of creation.
Very well said Sir.
That , “1905 was kind of a big year for physics and for Einstein as well” is an understatement, but let’s not forget that the speaker is an Englishman and as such , he is a king of the understatement.
Brilliant guy but his explanations are conceptually “disordered”.
I JUST re-read L.E. Modessitt Jr. "Recluce" novels. Wierdly convergent.
W or Omega in Boltzmann's equation for entropy [ s = k.log W] is *not* equal to the total number of arrangements (microstates) of a system Wtot based on the macroscopic variables of Pressure, Temperature, Volume and number of particles! That is only assumed in order to reduce the Boltzmann equation to the classical equation for entropy change during a thermodynamic process ie where heat energy is transferred in or out of a system. The *truth* is Boltzmann's W is the number of microstates in any macrostate arbitrarily chosen by an observer which leads to the entropy of a system following the probability of the system being found in that macrostate (0 < W/Wtot < 1).
Note probability and therefore entropy is *entirely subjective* being dependent on the choice of an observer. The probability is not a thermodynamic property but entropy is and it accords exactly with our concept of disorder and its inverse improbability with order which is why entropy is properly defined as a measure of disorder.
I read his articles at work when I have downtime, awesome guy
Sure entropy is a concept not defined satisfactorily. Wolfram is the last guy to succeed where Penrose failed.
This guy has been one of my favorite guests on the show.
Engineering students get introduced to M. Carnot and Thermo really EARLY in their education, lol, sigh! (I hated Thermo...)