@@santamills8638 I suppose Russia in not in europe. Or rather europe does not trade with russia. So, if we trade more with U.S. we obligate not to consider our interests with other states. Or since we trade with U.S. we must always do their bidding. Geopolitics are changing now, and Reliance on U.S. whose economy is on the tantrum is not ideal. And SA as state in IR has all the right to consider its interest. Because no one forces U.S. to do as they wish on the global sphere.
@@santamills8638 It is not about trading, it is about being loyal to those who were loyal to you during struggle. USA and Europe supported apartheid regime in SA which was wagging war, killing our people and children. They labeled our fathers terrorists for fighting for their land.
Putin will land in SA and leave without a hindrance 😂if Bush started a war on falsehoods that killed over a million ppl and Mandela refused to meet him 😢Putin is an angel in comparison
@@rubenjooste4383 The warrant is for kids, it doesn't say all war crime. All war crimes, including Bush and Obama and the USA made it very clear that it will sanction whoever investigates all war crimes
The woman is bias. Western atrocities were left out in this conversation. South Africa should just remove themselves from this Rome statute, it goes against our interest. Law is for the people. If the people feel the law is not for their benefit, it means justice is not seen to be done. Therefore, remove yourself from this nonsense. ICC is no different from the IMF or the World Bank. It's just another extension of the US.
This discussions was a bit too sanitized and also not very representative of the South African narrative. Great discussion again Sizwe but there is a lot that was not touched or deliberately avoided and in a way explains the soft panel brought to the studio. The SA government is on recording stating its position of displeasure with the ICC through the Minister Pandor, if South Africa should leave the ICC the US should be the last nation to have an opinion as they are not part of the Rome statute and have themselves threatened the ICC prosecutors when they were investigated for war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our BRICS partners are not part of ICC and SA shouldn’t be too.
Mr. Botha won this debate, hands down. He demonstrated depth and breadth of the topic far better than the doctor and Prof could. Approaching such complexity in a linear fashion does no one any justice. Well done, Sizwe, for this one.
What did it mean when the American government conced that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but non the less Iraq was invaded and crushed.
Why did the icc kept a blind eye after America invaded Iran-Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan why and why now does it seem concerned with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia,then give us reasons that exclude America from being held accountable for such invasions in other countries.
Are they dreaming or what? Russiacan will declare war on us. However I know Ramaphosas stance on this one. He is a stoic supporter of Putin. First of all I think Putin will not come to the summit.
Neither Russia nor Ukraine are members of the ICC, which would have granted it automatic jurisdiction to investigate crimes committed by Russia during the ongoing invasion.
@@NadineLynch10 I watch the news more than you do, the difference is I don't only watch western mainstream media only, so I have two sides of the story. There are no war crimes in Ukraine. In every war there will be casualties. If Putin must be arrested for what is happening in Ukraine, first we must arrest Obama, Clinton and Bush for what happened in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. More people and children died there than Ukraine.
Why is the professor questioning the statehood of Palestine when the state of Israel itself is far more questionable? She knows, she just doesn't want to show her lack of bias. Mr Botes seems to do what the ANC does, politicking empty rhetoric. However I feel like they are aware of the dangers of arresting Putin but have handled this situation awfully. The ANC of now has no synergy, no will on implementation and their coherency is always questionable. For the most part I felt Dr Cilliers was actually the most practically minded here, and yes I'm biased lol.
Vladimir Putin won't be arrested in Rsa, he is Russian Head of state. If we struggle to arrest our own criminals just because they're in power. This is more like a movie series to me.
M not surprised 😲 by the other two people s comments becos they from skool of apartheid regime skool 😊 Mr Botes is telling them about Libya people of palastine but they are ignoring The debate no arrest for Mr Putin period
South Africa's interest are not just economic, but also a long term goal to foster a new global order that is not dominated by the West( Multipolar world). BRICS has just overtaken the G7 in GDP PPP. It presence an opportunity to build an alternative world, where we don't have to visit the King in England every five years.
Whatever what rhe international law says , SA must not succumb to the racist decision of ICC , LET THEM FIRST ARREST usa and its allies for al the autrocies they committed in this world.
In the first time ANC never make any referendum to all SAns, that ANC is now joining Bricks ANC done this on it's own, they never take it to parliament to tabled it and came with one contusion. They just think SA is for them so now is the time to take it to parliament
From an Afrikanist view those two Settlers on the panel is advocating Roman,Dutch so-called Constitutional Democratic Law..There should have been an Black Oppression View.
As South African citizens we will warmly welcome our comrade in arms General Vladmir Putin. Putin played a very important role in our freedom from apartheid regime, when it was not fashionable to be friends of South Africa.
The interesting part of this debate is when they say the USA is not part of the ICC. Hence they are allowed to do whatever they like. But then turn around and say Russia is not part of the ICC but... Hypocrisy is very interesting
Dr Mpofu-Walsh on this episode I only heard 👂 one guest that his argument made sense for the common South African viewer etc that's Mr Botes the other 2 guests were mouthpieces and vessel of imperialism and western Hegemony i am glad that the Us and allies have met their Match the Russian Federation and Comrade Putin
🤣🤣do this ppl know about Putin's personal army not his state army? even themselves they are afraid to challenge him. beside that SA loves president Putin.
They supply the world with 40% of enrich uranium fuel for nuclear power plants, they even supply the USA even today, why wouldn't there nuclear weapons work for a pioneer in the industry?
*Disclaimer* Off course, S.A. should arrest him. The onus is on putin not to come to South Africa to save innocent citizens of this country. He can always send someone else to represent him in August instead of physically coming to S.A. But then, putin is allegedly arrogant, he'll want to come just to prove a point at the expense of poor S.A. citizens. *disclaimer*
The outside influences established during the Berlin Conference, combined with the Rome Statute, enable aggressors who are not subject to the ICC's jurisdiction to evade accountability for their involvement in war crimes. This leads to a situation where those with overwhelming influence escaping scrutiny and prosecution. Despite this, the charge against Putin for creating war in Ukraine is simply put forward differently from causes in creation of war in Syria, Iran, Sudan and other parts of the world where children suffer and remain suffering from such war crimes that are irrevocably not the same. The architects of such instabilities, and violence, remain still at large, highlighting the double standards and the hypocrisy prevalent in those protected through possession of high places simply as a result of self interest. The ambiguity of the situation only further exacerbates the problem especially when choosing to or, not, those overarching matters connected to legal, political and diplomatic navigations that are appealingly skewed according to one’s interpretation of the narrative.
@@luciossithole5487 The DM of DIrco was just there as a mouthpiece of ANC, instead of government. Hence I am saying he was boring. I mean to continuously say, we choose non-alignment on the issue at hand. Yet, in the same breath he mentions Russia position in the liberation is such confusion. Because already the ANC is aligned with Russia. Hence, his posture should have been about the position of government. In my view government does not have a position on the warrant of arrest that is why they still consulting State Attorney General on the matter. For his it was Mrabulo session this one.
Going by the comments so far, are we really that insular in our viewpoints? Besides, Putin is obviously not setting foot outside of Russia or Belarus so it's a moot point.
@@alphacroster455 getting personal hey? Typical white man with anger problems, I bet growing up you where on add pills? Mentally unstable, shame,😂, I don't need to ever travel from my ancestral home, your ancestors came by ship, therefore your need to travel to other parts of the world, the truth is your kind will be accepted only in the west, white people time, is over, y'all have no future, facts!
Yes South Africa should arrest Putin.... But.... For peace sake they SHOULDN'T Any wayThis country is screwed this government must do what it wants......
We can't. How? Where do we start? You cant arrest the world president
I mean , Putin? Are they saying they want to invite him, he gets here, they arrest him? What new level of stupid is this?
Even if Putin comes, SA would not arrest him. SA interest are important than capturing Putin as its economic partner.
And you expect interpol to arrest Guptas, and Tanzania to arrest Thabo for you.
We trade more with USA and Europe than with Russia.
@@santamills8638 I suppose Russia in not in europe. Or rather europe does not trade with russia. So, if we trade more with U.S. we obligate not to consider our interests with other states. Or since we trade with U.S. we must always do their bidding. Geopolitics are changing now, and Reliance on U.S. whose economy is on the tantrum is not ideal. And SA as state in IR has all the right to consider its interest. Because no one forces U.S. to do as they wish on the global sphere.
@@jameskillu9171 Sadly Tanzania did arrest Thabo for SA. Didnt they.
@@santamills8638 It is not about trading, it is about being loyal to those who were loyal to you during struggle. USA and Europe supported apartheid regime in SA which was wagging war, killing our people and children. They labeled our fathers terrorists for fighting for their land.
Putin will land in SA and leave without a hindrance 😂if Bush started a war on falsehoods that killed over a million ppl and Mandela refused to meet him 😢Putin is an angel in comparison
You cant allow murder because someone else committed murder, thats brain thefted
Genocide while all those kids are alive and turned back to their parents? What does genocide mean?
All war crimes
@@rubenjooste4383 The warrant is for kids, it doesn't say all war crime.
All war crimes, including Bush and Obama and the USA made it very clear that it will sanction whoever investigates all war crimes
The woman is bias. Western atrocities were left out in this conversation. South Africa should just remove themselves from this Rome statute, it goes against our interest. Law is for the people. If the people feel the law is not for their benefit, it means justice is not seen to be done. Therefore, remove yourself from this nonsense. ICC is no different from the IMF or the World Bank. It's just another extension of the US.
South africa is sold out big time....
This discussions was a bit too sanitized and also not very representative of the South African narrative. Great discussion again Sizwe but there is a lot that was not touched or deliberately avoided and in a way explains the soft panel brought to the studio.
The SA government is on recording stating its position of displeasure with the ICC through the Minister Pandor, if South Africa should leave the ICC the US should be the last nation to have an opinion as they are not part of the Rome statute and have themselves threatened the ICC prosecutors when they were investigated for war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Our BRICS partners are not part of ICC and SA shouldn’t be too.
Neither is USA OR UK yet we must adher to what they want? They mos jas in they kop
Hi putin is not the bad one here amerika and nato ..#@$$ mad
Mr. Botha won this debate, hands down. He demonstrated depth and breadth of the topic far better than the doctor and Prof could. Approaching such complexity in a linear fashion does no one any justice. Well done, Sizwe, for this one.
What did it mean when the American government conced that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but non the less Iraq was invaded and crushed.
@@elliasdlamini2045 nice whataboutism👍
@@psylentrage right...
This gentleman from the anc explained lot of things which were deviating from the questions
Why did the icc kept a blind eye after America invaded Iran-Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan why and why now does it seem concerned with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia,then give us reasons that exclude America from being held accountable for such invasions in other countries.
Putin is welcome to South Africa 🇿🇦
Putin is welcome to the ANC, SACP, EFF not to all SAns that's for those parties only
This woman believes that there will be only trade consequences for arresting Putin and embarrassing Russia like that ? 😂😂😂
Are they dreaming or what? Russiacan will declare war on us. However I know Ramaphosas stance on this one. He is a stoic supporter of Putin. First of all I think Putin will not come to the summit.
Nope, icc must send police to come and arrest him at the airport
Where will those police land? Our country is no banana state and no one can come and arrest people in here. In any case, ICC has no police.
@@Azi_theonly I know, I was being sarcastic
Well done Sizwe
Neither Russia nor Ukraine are members of the ICC, which would have granted it automatic jurisdiction to investigate crimes committed by Russia during the ongoing invasion.
What crime did he commit?
War-crime
@@NadineLynch10 ellaborate
@@Azi_theonly the war in Ukrainian! Watch the news and you will know everything what he has done wrong
@@NadineLynch10 I watch the news more than you do, the difference is I don't only watch western mainstream media only, so I have two sides of the story. There are no war crimes in Ukraine. In every war there will be casualties. If Putin must be arrested for what is happening in Ukraine, first we must arrest Obama, Clinton and Bush for what happened in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. More people and children died there than Ukraine.
@@NadineLynch10 whose news? I didn't hear it on Russia Today.
The ANC is not clear on its position. The ANC rep was just reading an ANC manifesto that even himslef didn't believe
Proud of Sizwe
🙌🏽
Congratulations on the new job Siz
"Our interests" our parent country's interests 😂
If arresting him ends loadshedding.Yes.😅😅😅
Why do others pick and choose
nice job sizwe
Why is the professor questioning the statehood of Palestine when the state of Israel itself is far more questionable? She knows, she just doesn't want to show her lack of bias. Mr Botes seems to do what the ANC does, politicking empty rhetoric. However I feel like they are aware of the dangers of arresting Putin but have handled this situation awfully. The ANC of now has no synergy, no will on implementation and their coherency is always questionable. For the most part I felt Dr Cilliers was actually the most practically minded here, and yes I'm biased lol.
Obligation to Rome Statute does not enhance economic state of a country. As specially ours....
Vladimir Putin won't be arrested in Rsa, he is Russian Head of state. If we struggle to arrest our own criminals just because they're in power. This is more like a movie series to me.
M not surprised 😲 by the other two people s comments becos they from skool of apartheid regime skool 😊 Mr Botes is telling them about Libya people of palastine but they are ignoring The debate no arrest for Mr Putin period
Thy shall not judge falsely against children without FATHERS
Yes they must try 😅😅
South Africa's interest are not just economic, but also a long term goal to foster a new global order that is not dominated by the West( Multipolar world). BRICS has just overtaken the G7 in GDP PPP. It presence an opportunity to build an alternative world, where we don't have to visit the King in England every five years.
Whatever what rhe international law says , SA must not succumb to the racist decision of ICC , LET THEM FIRST ARREST usa and its allies for al the autrocies they committed in this world.
In the first time ANC never make any referendum to all SAns, that ANC is now joining Bricks ANC done this on it's own, they never take it to parliament to tabled it and came with one contusion. They just think SA is for them so now is the time to take it to parliament
then let them meet over zoom.
Like what Bush and Blair did in Iraq
From an Afrikanist view those two Settlers on the panel is advocating Roman,Dutch so-called Constitutional Democratic Law..There should have been an Black Oppression View.
Vessels of western imperialism
"Servicing of bilateral relations" what on earth does that mean ?
😂😂😂😂 This is such a dumb question. Is Putin so dumb to be arrested by South Africa of all places. That will be big embarrasment to mother Russia😢
The lady came on National TV to lie , Ukraine is not a member of the ICC😂😂😂😂
We need to start with the USA and NATO countries
Ya let's start there George Bush, Tony Blair ,Barack Obama, Nicholas Sarkozy etc
As South African citizens we will warmly welcome our comrade in arms General Vladmir Putin. Putin played a very important role in our freedom from apartheid regime, when it was not fashionable to be friends of South Africa.
The Western play olso big role by chasing SA to any kind of spots internationally so you only see Russia. Don't play a dirty game here
The interesting part of this debate is when they say the USA is not part of the ICC. Hence they are allowed to do whatever they like.
But then turn around and say Russia is not part of the ICC but...
Hypocrisy is very interesting
First go ferch Bushiri. Yoh Putin? Ambitious to say the least.
Absolute cheek!!
Putin deserves to be here
we dont want no smoke
This woman is not consistent
I would have preferred this interview to be conducted by JJ, Sizwe is a soft interviewer.
Yes they should
What exactly is this guys accent? Is he a coloured or whats going on?
Breath of fresh air, Congrats Sizwe.
Dr Mpofu-Walsh on this episode I only heard 👂 one guest that his argument made sense for the common South African viewer etc that's Mr Botes the other 2 guests were mouthpieces and vessel of imperialism and western Hegemony i am glad that the Us and allies have met their Match the Russian Federation and Comrade Putin
Ayeye😊
SA before you erest petu resand from Brics
did you arrest those who were killed pregnant women and kids in iraq and libya
🤣🤣do this ppl know about Putin's personal army not his state army? even themselves they are afraid to challenge him. beside that SA loves president Putin.
It's impossible kkkkkkkkkkk
I find this amusing... South Africa could not even arrest Thabo Bester... or even the common rapist on the street... please 😂😅
It would be stupid only saying it...
Sizwe that interview wasn't a fair one 😳 😕 not all parties properly represent it was 2 against 1 mfethu .
Aii this Dr mara🤣🤣 clearly still seeing Europe and its G7 as a power house... Not for long my...not for long 😂
161 countries in the world love Putin...and also some NATO countries...and millions of Americans
We are democratic country why the ather things happen under the table ANC musing play with SAns please.
this kid is in over his head
Alvin Botes is useless in this conversation. He hasn’t said anything concrete
Atleast he doesn't kill them like NATO countries did in middle east
Yes
SA should arrest him we see what would happen, I doubt if Russia nukes work
They supply the world with 40% of enrich uranium fuel for nuclear power plants, they even supply the USA even today, why wouldn't there nuclear weapons work for a pioneer in the industry?
Lol😅😅😅😅
And see what WOULD happen. Are you listening to yourself? Lolest
Do that dangerous experiment on your own people. South Africans have suffered enough.
@@tiaanbasson9092 they know their Story very well hence western Countries fear attacking Russia 🇷🇺 🤔
*Disclaimer* Off course, S.A. should arrest him. The onus is on putin not to come to South Africa to save innocent citizens of this country. He can always send someone else to represent him in August instead of physically coming to S.A. But then, putin is allegedly arrogant, he'll want to come just to prove a point at the expense of poor S.A. citizens. *disclaimer*
Nothing will happen to South Africans if Putin come here. Rest assured. We are anticipating him. We will be waving Russian flags in the streets.
its Bush and Blair we want to deal with the help of Putin.
Russia has Nuclear weapon Munghi they are more than capable of bombing this country
And ur stupid
The outside influences established during the Berlin Conference, combined with the Rome Statute, enable aggressors who are not subject to the ICC's jurisdiction to evade accountability for their involvement in war crimes. This leads to a situation where those with overwhelming influence escaping scrutiny and prosecution. Despite this, the charge against Putin for creating war in Ukraine is simply put forward differently from causes in creation of war in Syria, Iran, Sudan and other parts of the world where children suffer and remain suffering from such war crimes that are irrevocably not the same. The architects of such instabilities, and violence, remain still at large, highlighting the double standards and the hypocrisy prevalent in those protected through possession of high places simply as a result of self interest. The ambiguity of the situation only further exacerbates the problem especially when choosing to or, not, those overarching matters connected to legal, political and diplomatic navigations that are appealingly skewed according to one’s interpretation of the narrative.
Ayeye 😂
I wonder if there is really any SAn like who truly believe😂 we will handcuff El President Vladimir Putin
this deputy minister of dirco is boring........
Boring on what elaborate?
@@luciossithole5487 The DM of DIrco was just there as a mouthpiece of ANC, instead of government. Hence I am saying he was boring. I mean to continuously say, we choose non-alignment on the issue at hand. Yet, in the same breath he mentions Russia position in the liberation is such confusion. Because already the ANC is aligned with Russia. Hence, his posture should have been about the position of government. In my view government does not have a position on the warrant of arrest that is why they still consulting State Attorney General on the matter. For his it was Mrabulo session this one.
@Sikhumbuzo Lukashe I now clearly understand your point of departure thanks brother for a constructive debate
SMWX
Going by the comments so far, are we really that insular in our viewpoints? Besides, Putin is obviously not setting foot outside of Russia or Belarus so it's a moot point.
Putin was in China, and he will be here in August. We will assure his protection as South Africans.
Don't worry about it. The West will send people here do it.
The truth is, no one would dare, even the USA, wouldn't
Never. Even if Putin go to Europe, no one will arrest him. They are so afraid of him.
@@fanamlawuli6761 Says someone without a father, who's never been outside the country he was born in.. and received dodge edu.
those people will probably go back in little airtight boxes to their senders.
@@alphacroster455 getting personal hey? Typical white man with anger problems, I bet growing up you where on add pills? Mentally unstable, shame,😂, I don't need to ever travel from my ancestral home, your ancestors came by ship, therefore your need to travel to other parts of the world, the truth is your kind will be accepted only in the west, white people time, is over, y'all have no future, facts!
Yes South Africa should arrest Putin....
But.... For peace sake they SHOULDN'T
Any wayThis country is screwed this government must do what it wants......
Western comedia