My Patreon: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek My Merch Store: cuiv.myspreadshop.com/ Equipment in this video: ZWO AM5N Mount: bit.ly/3W3TWKe (Agena) or bit.ly/3A0cO4e (HPS) or tinyurl.com/5ft5n9am (ZWO direct QHY Minicam 8 (mono w filters): bit.ly/4gvvh8Y (Agena) Askar SQA55: bit.ly/4hEfW7l (Agena) or bit.ly/48u4PJC (HPS) or tinyurl.com/24mek4vc (FLO) or tinyurl.com/5yw5ccrd (All Star Telescope) Mini Computer: amzn.to/49XTx01 For any affiliate link purchases, make sure to accept cookies if prompted! Amazon affiliate: amzn.to/49XTx01 Agena affiliate: bit.ly/3Om0hNG High Point Scientific affiliate: bit.ly/3lReu8R First Light Optics affiliate: tinyurl.com/yxd2jkr2 All-Star Telescope affiliate: bit.ly/3SCgVbV Astroshop eu Affiliate: tinyurl.com/2vafkax8
I don't leave my rig out when not in use but I have marked the patio so I can put it back close to the same place each time I get it out. I levelled the rig the first time I set up and havent bothered since, its close enough and I have never had issues, you just have to make sure you only adjust the largest error each time. I am glad this confirms I wasn't doing something stupid lol.
Good to see this Cuiv, I manufacture galvanized piers and I do have threaded leveling bolt holes in the base (for fitting on unlevel surfaces), but am amazed how many want threaded adjustable tops on piers. You have a rock solid pier then want to put a wobbly top on it supported by a few bolts for a fraction of a degree correction, madness.
Chuckle. Very good, Cuiv. This should finally settle all those silly arguments on forums that you see. I’ve always argued that levelling makes no difference. But d’you know what? Even though I know it’s not necessary I still level. Not to the nth degree or anything, but simply to satisfy my sense of Karma or something. 😅. Keep on keeping on Cuiv.
This is so good, Cuiv! I've had numerous discussions around this and everyone has an opinion, but no one had ever tested it. ...and then you end this tiresome discussion by testing it! Brilliant. Now I'm kicking myself for not testing it myself 🙂 I'm about to build a pier in my observatory and have been stressing over polar alignment and levelling. Seeing this video was like going to therapy - I'm much calmer and relaxed now! 😁
My 'background' in life is from the land surveying perspective. I'm retired now but spent over 40 yrs in the profession. If you would have seen some of the setups I made with a theodolite placing it on slopes of 20-30 degrees you would have certainly done a double take thinking 'why is this not falling over'. Even if the top plate of the tripod was not level, and I'm talking maybe 10-20° out, you still could level the instruments vertical axis so the instrument rotated perpendicular to a line drawn thru the axis to the center of the earth. (Basically the definition of 'level') As long as the center of gravity of the instrument was within the footprint of the tripod legs it would not fall over. You could test this with a plumb bob hanging from the instrument base. While I don't have one of these strain wave mounts (yet) what I don't understand is, if you have the counter weight, why don't you USE it just for safeties sake!? The center of gravity on these set ups is constantly changing thru the night as the instrument changes position! On my theodolite, even if the tripod was on uneven ground, the center of gravity of the instrument was still centered on the tripod head... unlike these strain wave setups! I've watched a few peoples videos where they came out to check on the scope and it had tipped over! A counterweight probably would have prevented that. All that is required for a polar mount to work properly is for the axis of rotation to be pointed at the celestial pole. Leveling the head before you do it just makes the movements to center it easier, as you saw by the shift when you moved it one direction as opposed to the other. If it was perfectly level then moving in alt would not affect azimuth and vis-a-vis. Now put the counterweights on those mounts!
Thanks for demonstrating what I’ve seen asked multiple times in forums. But never have I’ve been so nervous watching one of your videos! Sure looked like that was going to tip over!
My goodness for a moment I thought your rig was tipping over as it started slewing!! LOL. ( 3:35 ) Cuiv I've had endless debates online over this very issue!! So thank you so much for doing this video and clearing it up once and for all!! You're one of my fave YT'ers Cuiv, love the channel/content! Clear Skies from Wes, Liverpool, England.
Glad I could help with those debates! I gotta admit, I was also a little tiny teeny bit worried about it tipping over, and I had a hand on the tripod leg just in case!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek LOL I don't blame you! I remember seeing a "Astro Biscuit" YT video some time ago, and his super expensive Takahashi and whole rig was blown over by wind, and soaked too!! 😱
I actually already suspected this not to matter as much as it's made out to be. When we (a friend and I) set up our gear we used to level the mount religiously. WAAAY later we found out that the bubble level on the head is so far of actual level it's not even funny any more. anyway, even though indeed polar alignment is slightly more dificult due to altitude changes affect azimuth somewhat and vice versa. But in practice we haven't found ANY difference in slewing or even guiding regardless of the mount being level or not. Thanks for this! your video confirmed our suspissions!
I love the silly experiments. They are very useful for demonstrating PRINCIPLES, rather than just PARTICULARS of any given situation. Please set your "Silliness Aggressiveness Factor to 110%"
I polar align my eq6r by simply moving it right or left and then adjusting the rear leg to get the altitude right. I cannot be bothered with the adjustment screws particulary in altitude axis, they get stuck and seem fragile. This way the mount most nights end up slightly off level but polar aligned and everything works perfectly fine
You're totally right, you don't need it, because leevling is 3 axis, but polar axis is only one. Once your mount RA axis is parallel to the polar one, you're good to go. The only problem is that az throws the altitude off and vice versa. That was particularly difficult back when we had to do star drifting to polar align. I guess this is where the "pre-requirement" to level the mount as best as possible came from. Excellent info!
Thanks for finally demonstrating this Cuiv. I've argued for years that an equatorial mount does not need to be level, or, in fact even on the ground. Just to prove a point, I have tried polar alignment with a mount bolted to a wall. Getting used to how it affects the azimuth and altitude adjustments is a bit of a mind (rude word inserted here), but once you get used to it and you are polar aligned the mount works exactly as expected. Saying that though, it's much easier and quicker to go with a reasonably level mount to start with, even if you just use the bubble on the mount or an app on your phone.
My setup is potable and has to be setup from scratch every night I image, so I always do three iterations of TPP alignment in NINA even alter levelling the tripod with some care. I say always; this is just once a year because I live in the UK 😅😅😅 Another fun video.
A helpful tip I use when polar aligning (kstars) is before the alignment I simply do a plate solve (with no sync) just to see where the scope is pointing. I can then see how much the scope needs to be moved. If it is a lot then I can manually move it until it is close. And when close I then start a polar align. Plate solving and polar align are on the same tab/panel which makes it easy.
Thanks for clearing this up, Cuiv! I shoot from two different decks and one is slightly different in level from the other. Good to know I don’t need to fret too much if I’m not perfectly level.
I remember many years ago, back in the Yahoo Groups days, Roland C. from AP stated quite categorically, that balance was of little consequence. He was speaking of course wrt AP mounts, but as I have a Mach1, his word is gospel. I've not given balance a thought in 15+ years. Good experiment to bear this out.
Wow.. never realized what a pet peeve it was to other people that some like to level their mounts lol. This comment section is nuts. Level your mount or don't, why do I care? haha. Great video Cuiv, surprised this hasn't been tried yet since it's such a polarizing subject apparently.
Me too! I searched to see if this had been done on video, but it hadn't! So I went for it (plus I knew exactly what would happen since I had subjected my EQ6R to just this years ago but off camera)
You just confirmed my experience. Levelling your tripod is unnecessary, but it can make polar alignment easier. When the base is level, adjustments in altitude (up and down) and azimuth (left and right) are more predictable and independent of each other. This means turning one adjustment knob won’t unintentionally affect the other, simplifying the alignment process. I always get it somewhat levelled but I don't waste my time on getting it perfect.
If you really think about it, an uneven tripod is kinda like being at different gps coordinates, but really the main reason to levell is to just make sure it's stable.
@@U_Geek can also matter if you are already close to hitting your tripod before or after a meridian flip. Then again, if you are already hitting the tripod on one side, being slightly off level could help.
Next to my house i have just views to the north or to the south. If i am on the south side i don't have a view to polaris. Last i polar align it roughly with a compass and it was 3° outside however, after 3 minutes i couldn't see any star trails! Telescope 72/420 with EOS 7D Mark II (view: 2.01"/pixel). I use PHD2!
Nope! I had zero field rotation over several nights. Field rotation depends *uniquely* on polar alignment quality - level doesn't figure into it at all!
From my experience, polar alignment doesn't have to be very precise either. I've been 8 arc minutes off before and guiding was still as good as usual, which for me is 0.5 to 0.7 RMS. The only difference being much more DEC pulses. If you are imaging close to the NCP though, you will get a bit of field rotation.
I always just go for close enough. I then get my polar align within 10 arc sec with Sharpcap. I'm still curious if I would be better off using my starsense to get an allsky polar align to get better alignment for Southern objects with my not so perfect AVX mount
No, with poor polar alignment the guiding will have to fight in the declination axis (and if the PA is too horrible, guiding will lose that fight!) and you will get field rotation!
Your next video should demonstrate how far off from polar alignment you can go and still guide well. In that regard, I'm very lazy. I roll my mount out of the garage (three wheeled rollers on each leg) and set the legs on the ground where I have some cross-hairs marked on the concrete. Occasionally, I'll do a drift alignment in PHD2, but usually, I just go for it--I don't even bother doing a guide calibration, unless I think something on my mount may have moved, ro I've changed a setup. And I do plate-solving before each run tolocate the target. I usually get sub arc-second rms guiding just fine!
Génial ! Thank you for demonstrating this point ! So useful. What about the polar alignment : how perfect it needs to be ? My mount (the CEM60 that I think you owned at some point of time) is very picky when I try to get the best results !
I have been saying for years. As long as your rig is stable, it is fine (although a bit less straight forward). But it is simple geometry: to align an axis toward a point, you only need a 2 axis control and their orientation does NOT matter.
Vielen Dank für das tolle Video 👍 Ich habe trotzdem die Frage ob es Ihnen auch möglich ist, grundsätzlich auch diese Audio-Simultan-Übersetzung einzufügen, wie es bei „AstroBackyard“ vorhanden ist?
Oh man that's hard - I had it on, but several people asked me to turn it off because the titles and description were also translated (badly), and the dubbing was bad (probably because of my French accent, TH-cam has trouble translating what I say ...)
Vielen Dank für Deine schnelle Antwort. Sicherlich ist die Qualität der Übersetzung (noch) nicht perfekt, aber es wäre eine riesige Erleichterung für Menschen deinen Worten zu folgen, die die besondere Qualität deiner Videos zu schätzen wissen, ohne sich auf die schriftliche Übersetzung konzentrieren zu müssen, besonders, wenn deine Erklärungen lange dauern oder du etwas schneller sprichst. Für Leute, die die englischen Sprache kennen ist es leicht, darauf verzichten zu wollen, aber für viele definitiv nicht. Letztlich kann man diese Funktion auch ausschalten, wenn man sie nicht möchte. Ich denke, dass ich hier für viele Zuschauer spreche, die jetzt endlich (!) deine tollen Erklärungen bequem folgen könnten!
Do you guide on the actual target for imaging, or a star close enough? If a star by the target is there any difference if that guide is closer or further away from the image target?
Hi Cuiv. Well, unless people are using something other than the buble level supplied with most mounts and tripods, I don't see why it should take more than a minute to level the mount, perhaps two if you're setting up on some really rough ground, but yeah I agree that you don't need to be exactly spot on with the leveling, it would probably be better spending the time checking that you've tightened down everything that you should have ( and yes, I am guilty of not doing that in the past! ).
Hey Cuiv, do you have any issues with your SQA55 OTA rotating in the ring while the focuser is moving? My SQA turns with the focuser no matter how tight I get the lock screw. At first I thought the focuser had hit the end of its travel but that isn’t the issue. Askar hasn’t been able to provide any useful info on this. I know I’m not the only one with this issue either.
Oh wow, no, I haven't had a single issue with the SQA55...! And not that. My first instinct would just be to add a layer of adhesive felt in the ring but... Can it be opened?
The first thing I’m going to try is putting some rubber on the tip of the lock screw which is bare aluminum currently, which give almost zero grip on the OTA. But yeah I thought the same thing, however Askar support won’t answer me on if it can be removed from the ring. I think if the camera rotator is unthreaded it can be slid out the front but I haven’t tried it yet.
Great video! So how precise do you have to be with polar alignment? I try to be under 1' of error, but sometimes (especially if it is too cold), I give up around my pixel scale x 30 (most my rigs are between 3" and 4", so i give up between 1.5' to 2'). Should I be toughing it out to get under 1' on those nights too?
I think with the ASIair the polar alignment assistance gives you a 😊 at 5’ and allows you to finish. I don’t know if that is generated by my equipment or that’s hard coded. I usually try to get lower than that as I’ve assumed less is better!
I have an eq6 and meridian flip won't work if the mount is not leveled (with as 115mm refractor) I imagine it would not make any difference with my 60mm refractor
@@CuivTheLazyGeek yes, I always use plate solving. Took me a while to find the issue because I normally never bother with levelling but the balance was probably too far for the mount to take care of. Everything else was like in your video though 😃
This is not silly at all. It would have been interesting to see the motor actions in comparison in the leveled and non leveled case. It would as well have been interesting to see the difference of picture rotation in the leveled (none) and unleveled case. I think this is the difference that counts when stacking the pictures. Kind regards from Germany!
I never worry about leveling my mount, but I confess, that is WAY more out of level than I would be comfortable with. With a GEM, at least your center of mass should stay over the center of the tripod, but with the strain-wave, that's not true.
It's also very true with strain wave, even more so due to the lack of CW!! I have to admit I was also stressed about it, but ended up using it as is for several nights 😂
Good to know about levelling. I see that you are using the Askar SQA55. Should I get the Askar SQ55A or the Askar 65PHQ with the reducer. I am still a beginner with SeeStar S50 and SVbony 503 102ED rig with ZWO 2600MC Air, AM5, rig. I need something ligther to go around.
Bad Japanese winter means only bad seeing! Over here in The Netherlands seeing is the thing I'm not that worried about. It's the lack of clear skies that annoys me. It's been cloudy ever since November. We've only had about an 8 hours of observation time since November. There's the continuous low hanging stratus cloud base that refuses to move. And the Sun is something you see on TV! ;)
I live in the south of the country and I've had way more than 8 hours of clear skies. I think it's been more than 25-30 hours since November, at least. The sad thing is that my D3 won't come until mid-February...
Oh you lucky guys! 😊 yeah, I saw that away from the coast you guys got more lucky. Here in The Hague it’s been really cloudy lately. Right now it’s another streak of cloudy nights (and days). It’s day 7 without any hint of clear skies.
Interesting experiment. I would like to see an attempt at an auto meridian flip with the mount out of level. I have found that good leveling is important to maintain the same framing of a target after the flip, especially if it fully fills the frame. (The mount does the flip, then ASIAIR/Nina attempts to plate solve and recenter)
@CuivTheLazyGeek and just like you showed, it causes the polar alignment to be a bit of an iterative process, but I have marked the spots where my tripod legs should be so PA takes at most 2-3 minutes. I always use plate solving so go-to works just fine too.
If you dont navigate via coordinates, leveling doesnt matter. You can pin the mount to a wall if you want, as long as the axis of rotation is aligned properly. Our observatory's chairman is using a well-sophisticated technique to level his mount, utilizing a jig with a plummet. But that's not what's missing in his images...
Great video! Some questions (for you or anyone). It looks like you have NINA measure point distance set t 10 degrees, yet your mount seems to end up rotating 90 degrees. Why is your mount seem to be moving that much? And does it matter whether this is 10 degrees, 20 degrees, or more? And noticed that even after you were happy with PA, it was constantly drifting. Sorry for being thick, but is this normal or due to the unlevel mount? I see the same behavior on my pier and have to PA each night. Anyway, thanks again.
Very interesting video. But still, doesn't this mean that the guiding will be constantly correcting the declination error, whereas if you had it levelled then _theoretically_ the dec motor should not have to move at all? And so you might end up with slight errors if you have a bit of backlash in the dec? This is good to know though, and I'm definitely storing this info away in my astro nugget box for the next time I forget to level my mount!
No! The declination movements (and field rotation) depend *uniquely* on polar alignment! Level doesn't factor in it at all, as long as polar alignment is good!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I've been trying to wrap my head around this for the last few days but my brain remains unconvinced. 😂 But that said, I trust what you're saying, it just hasn't clicked with me yet!
NIce test. Just a warning Nina team does not recomend usa the 3-point near the pole, there is even a image showing the good declinations to align (45 degress).
Weeeeeeelll, kind of, and kind of not - to quote the creator of the plugin "near the pole is fine", and "it's a double edged sword. the initial calc will be more precise most likely due to larger point spread, the correction phase will have more potential issues" (effectively near the pole, you have more time to get the polar alignment right without accumulating tracking errors) He intentionally set the defaults (which is what I am using) to be near the pole... "i've setup the defaults for the plugin to work for most cases and those are set to be near the pole. works well for me"
I never spend much time leveling, just get it close and go. Now if you want to run a mount in Alt-Az, this is far more important as it will effect gotos
When your mount is not leveled, the polar alignment is a nightmare. That's where the big hurdle is. So it's worth taking 10 min to level the mount, especially during the daytime, so that polar alignment is a breeze.
I have to assume this would also apply to the S50 and S30 scopes. We don't polar, well you know. Yet. I've had my S50 about a year and leveling was always part of the setup. Maybe not anymore.
He said this doesn't apply for Alt/Az, which is what the SeeStars are. Now they do perform plate solving, but the thing is it literally take less than a minute to level (less than 30 sec if you use a leveler attachment) that why not spend that tiny amount of time to get a decent level. Not saying you need 0.0 but sub 1.0 is trivial and 0.5 isn't hard at all with an attachment.
The Seestar S50 now performs an alignment estimation based on three points in the sky (like the Dwarf II and III) and automatically compensates for level issues! But it used to require perfect level (no longer thanks to software magic!)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek That's probably the best explanation I've seen on why leveling is not so important or needed anymore on the Seestars. In the main Seestar FB group, when the issue of leveling comes up it usually a bunch of people saying they never level and don't have issues, but rarely if ever an explanation of why. Thanks for this.
Great content! Do you have any opinion on the Ragdoll 20 mount by any chance? It has some really impressive payload numbers (20kg-30kg with and without the counterweight) while costing only $1899! Would it be possible to make a review of this budget beast too?
It affects goto during visual, your first goto will be very far from target. People forget how visual still needs a decent hand controller and accurate goto
Correct! As I showed in the video, the first goto will be off by the misalignment level..... Unless you re-home the mount! So on an EQ6R for instance you can manually move the CW bar to point straight to the ground (so at a weird angle to the unlevel mount itself) and set home position - then the first goto will work (I tried it off camera back when I had the EQ6R!)
Apart from the pier in the observatory I've never gone to mad levelling the mount near enough is good enough as far as I'm concerned, I've seen endless debates in forums & groups over the years but this just proves you don't, plus with platesolving tech readily available these days only strengthens the argument. Although I must admit seeing your scope slewing I would have probably fitted a counterweight just for good measure as it did look pretty scary at times.
Cuiv, firstly thank you for all the great content. Wondering if you could do a video on the AM5 or AM3 in Alt-Az mode with no guide scope? Im in the market for the AM3 and would gladly go through your link with High Point Scientific for my purchase! I'd also like to see how it's run with the software for a laptop and the app. Im itching to pull the trigger, Im mostly interested in this right now for planetary imaging. I understand this may seem elementary but I'd love some help before I buy it! Thank you sir!
Hi Cuiv, thank you for the video! I am taking my photos from an enclosed balcony in a Bortle 9 (happy times I know) and this video helps alot because my balcon is a little bit slanted and I thought that my poor trackingis is due to the mount not being perfectly leveled. I have an AM5N mount with a SW 50ED guide scope with ASI220MM Mini guide cam for an askar 71f scope. Can you please share your PHD2 settings? I get about 1.2-1.5 RMS error. Keep up the good work!
@@pompeymonkey3271 Any idea which algorithm to use for tracking? Also, for how long should i leave the guide assist? (usually i leave it for about 2-3 minutes)
Default algos are good, just make sure to use 1s exposures (or even 0.5s) and multi star guiding! Increase the gain if you don't see any stars. And try to be as close as possible to best focus! Ra and Dec aggressiveness are unchanged (70 and 100), but min movement is 0.15 on both axes. Good luck!
Thank you for the perfect explanation but its bring risk for the equipments , even leveling the mount on any concrete or steel stud not so criticsl, by the way performing another test by pointing the stud nearly to the celestrial pol or making concrate or table surface prependicukar to the polar line and the mount will be alt azimuth confoguration, like skywacher mount, l like your spelling Alhamal in Arabic accent and i is maching the original spelling 😊.
If you subscribe to Cuiv at a higher level, not only will your skies be clearer, but your mount won't tip over even though it looks as if it should... 😉👍👍
Correct - it has a routine to check its level-ness (or lack thereof) and account for it, basically via a three star alignment (Dwarf II also did that from the get go). But when the S50 was launched, it didn't have this software feature and absolutely needed to be well leveled! Most AltAz mounts do even now :)
Why do people even worry about this? You will never get a portable rig absolutely level unlike a pier mounted rig. That said, it is so, so, so easy to get it really close with just a spirit level. Is this really a "Lazy" issue or a "Lazy" issue??? We are always talking about diminishing returns for effort put it, is this not just the same, but in a mechanical form?
What about field rotation? If mount is far from level, I assume will apperas a field rotation. Isn't it?. In your case should not be very large, but probably something below 5º in a full night session. Have you noticed anything? For a small unlevel, I assume it will be not detectable.
This video is true as long as you have autoguiding as it will compensate for the errors, but without autoguiding then better do the levelling of your mount as best as you can
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI guess you are right about this, but for me with my mount that has only RA motor, getting the scope pointing to the target is cumbersome specially with 600mm focal length without the levelling, I made a DYI degrees markings on the declination bracket to get the scope pointing as close as possible to the the target. If there is a 5 degree error due to levelling, it would take me a very long time to manually correct the Declination angle. But as you said if the mount is perfectly polar aligned then tracking would be good, but getting the cope to the target manually becomes more difficult for my mount at least.
Why do you think it takes10 minutes to level a tripod, it only takes me 1 minute if I take my time and go for perfection, 30 seconds if I go for close enough
Because this is not a competition and you do not get points for being faster. Do not tell people they are doing something wrong if it takes them 10 minutes just because it takes you 1 minute.
@@Darren_71 you don't need to be the Flash, you only adjust 2 legs one time each, anyone can do it in that time when they know how, even Slowpoke Rodriguez
@@aaronwmorris Cuiv said himself he was worried about it toppling over, a level tripod is the best way to reduce that risk, I was only pointing out that if you learn the right technique it can be done quickly.
In equatorial mode, leveling the mount does not matter for EAA or observations. What was not really mentioned in the video is that leveling is very important for Alt/Az mounts.
In theory, no. If you use the Celestron all star polar align, that routine actually relies on leveling (but that's for both EAA and astrophoto). For altaz mounts, leveling us critical!
Oh don't let it annoy you! I view it as part of the ceremony of getting ready for imaging! I just want people to know they can skip that little ceremony if they wish to!
Thank you for this informative video! I have a question about your experience with image field rotation. As I understand it, the image field rotation should be clearly visible if there is a large deviation in the levelling. As a result, you might have to cut off significant parts of the image in the final stack.
No field rotation whatsoever across multiple nights - field rotation on an EQ mount depends *only* on polar alignment, leveling doesn't factor into it at all
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Im so glad you demonstrated this, people get so worked up lol
I don't leave my rig out when not in use but I have marked the patio so I can put it back close to the same place each time I get it out. I levelled the rig the first time I set up and havent bothered since, its close enough and I have never had issues, you just have to make sure you only adjust the largest error each time. I am glad this confirms I wasn't doing something stupid lol.
Exactly what I've done with my patio setup!
Yep, you're doing something hyper efficient and not stupid! :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I have 3dprinted pucks in my lawn😝
I've printed small TPU things with tapered pits and put in on 3m doublesided tape on my balcony floor. Never have to redo alignment.
Excellent video mate!! Good on you for demonstrating this 👍👍 clear skies! :-D
Thanks so much Luke!!
Good to see this Cuiv, I manufacture galvanized piers and I do have threaded leveling bolt holes in the base (for fitting on unlevel surfaces), but am amazed how many want threaded adjustable tops on piers. You have a rock solid pier then want to put a wobbly top on it supported by a few bolts for a fraction of a degree correction, madness.
Chuckle. Very good, Cuiv. This should finally settle all those silly arguments on forums that you see. I’ve always argued that levelling makes no difference. But d’you know what? Even though I know it’s not necessary I still level. Not to the nth degree or anything, but simply to satisfy my sense of Karma or something. 😅. Keep on keeping on Cuiv.
This is so good, Cuiv!
I've had numerous discussions around this and everyone has an opinion, but no one had ever tested it.
...and then you end this tiresome discussion by testing it! Brilliant.
Now I'm kicking myself for not testing it myself 🙂
I'm about to build a pier in my observatory and have been stressing over polar alignment and levelling.
Seeing this video was like going to therapy - I'm much calmer and relaxed now! 😁
I'm glad you found it helpful and it helped relieve some stress! I love to provide video therapy!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks, Dr!
My 'background' in life is from the land surveying perspective. I'm retired now but spent over 40 yrs in the profession. If you would have seen some of the setups I made with a theodolite placing it on slopes of 20-30 degrees you would have certainly done a double take thinking 'why is this not falling over'. Even if the top plate of the tripod was not level, and I'm talking maybe 10-20° out, you still could level the instruments vertical axis so the instrument rotated perpendicular to a line drawn thru the axis to the center of the earth. (Basically the definition of 'level') As long as the center of gravity of the instrument was within the footprint of the tripod legs it would not fall over. You could test this with a plumb bob hanging from the instrument base. While I don't have one of these strain wave mounts (yet) what I don't understand is, if you have the counter weight, why don't you USE it just for safeties sake!? The center of gravity on these set ups is constantly changing thru the night as the instrument changes position! On my theodolite, even if the tripod was on uneven ground, the center of gravity of the instrument was still centered on the tripod head... unlike these strain wave setups! I've watched a few peoples videos where they came out to check on the scope and it had tipped over! A counterweight probably would have prevented that. All that is required for a polar mount to work properly is for the axis of rotation to be pointed at the celestial pole. Leveling the head before you do it just makes the movements to center it easier, as you saw by the shift when you moved it one direction as opposed to the other. If it was perfectly level then moving in alt would not affect azimuth and vis-a-vis. Now put the counterweights on those mounts!
Sorry for the stress on the CW! I actually don't have it for this mount :) Also I loved your anecdotes, thank you for sharing!
Thanks for demonstrating what I’ve seen asked multiple times in forums. But never have I’ve been so nervous watching one of your videos! Sure looked like that was going to tip over!
Yeah, I was a little nervous too, but it turned out to be ok in the end 😂 I used it for something like 5 nights before I restored it to level 😂
Love this one Cuiv! This is classic. So, on a reasonably flat surface let's not dwell on our bubble levels.
Exactly! 😂
My goodness for a moment I thought your rig was tipping over as it started slewing!! LOL. ( 3:35 )
Cuiv I've had endless debates online over this very issue!! So thank you so much for doing this video and clearing it up once and for all!!
You're one of my fave YT'ers Cuiv, love the channel/content!
Clear Skies from Wes, Liverpool, England.
Glad I could help with those debates! I gotta admit, I was also a little tiny teeny bit worried about it tipping over, and I had a hand on the tripod leg just in case!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek LOL I don't blame you! I remember seeing a "Astro Biscuit" YT video some time ago, and his super expensive Takahashi and whole rig was blown over by wind, and soaked too!! 😱
I actually already suspected this not to matter as much as it's made out to be. When we (a friend and I) set up our gear we used to level the mount religiously. WAAAY later we found out that the bubble level on the head is so far of actual level it's not even funny any more. anyway, even though indeed polar alignment is slightly more dificult due to altitude changes affect azimuth somewhat and vice versa. But in practice we haven't found ANY difference in slewing or even guiding regardless of the mount being level or not. Thanks for this! your video confirmed our suspissions!
Same suspicion when I was staring at my non leveled mount and my good polar alignment, it was just working so well
Glad this was helpful!!
Thanks for demonstrating this, I have had many discussions with this over the years with people. Cheers Kurt
Cheers Kurt! Glad it can be useful!
I love the silly experiments. They are very useful for demonstrating PRINCIPLES, rather than just PARTICULARS of any given situation. Please set your "Silliness Aggressiveness Factor to 110%"
Haha thank you!!
I wish more people understood this. Thanks for spreading the word, Cuiv.
Why? why do you care if someone wants their tripod level so much? lol
I polar align my eq6r by simply moving it right or left and then adjusting the rear leg to get the altitude right. I cannot be bothered with the adjustment screws particulary in altitude axis, they get stuck and seem fragile. This way the mount most nights end up slightly off level but polar aligned and everything works perfectly fine
That's a cool workaround!!
You're totally right, you don't need it, because leevling is 3 axis, but polar axis is only one. Once your mount RA axis is parallel to the polar one, you're good to go. The only problem is that az throws the altitude off and vice versa. That was particularly difficult back when we had to do star drifting to polar align. I guess this is where the "pre-requirement" to level the mount as best as possible came from. Excellent info!
As usual, excellent experiment!!
Thank you, and thanks for watching!
Performing this experiment without a counterweight is wild! Brave Cuiv! I love this type of experiment.
I was a teeny tiny bit stressed out, but then I used it as is for like 5 nights in a row!
Thanks for finally demonstrating this Cuiv. I've argued for years that an equatorial mount does not need to be level, or, in fact even on the ground. Just to prove a point, I have tried polar alignment with a mount bolted to a wall. Getting used to how it affects the azimuth and altitude adjustments is a bit of a mind (rude word inserted here), but once you get used to it and you are polar aligned the mount works exactly as expected. Saying that though, it's much easier and quicker to go with a reasonably level mount to start with, even if you just use the bubble on the mount or an app on your phone.
My setup is potable and has to be setup from scratch every night I image, so I always do three iterations of TPP alignment in NINA even alter levelling the tripod with some care. I say always; this is just once a year because I live in the UK 😅😅😅 Another fun video.
A helpful tip I use when polar aligning (kstars) is before the alignment I simply do a plate solve (with no sync) just to see where the scope is pointing. I can then see how much the scope needs to be moved. If it is a lot then I can manually move it until it is close. And when close I then start a polar align. Plate solving and polar align are on the same tab/panel which makes it easy.
Great video! Very informative as the internet mantra is "you don't need to level". I like to level anyway.
Leveling certainly is never harmful, and definitely beneficial for polar alignment ease, etc!
Thank you Cuiv. Your work is very helpful.
Thank you !
Thanks for clearing this up, Cuiv! I shoot from two different decks and one is slightly different in level from the other. Good to know I don’t need to fret too much if I’m not perfectly level.
My pleasure! Thanks for your comments as always!
I remember many years ago, back in the Yahoo Groups days, Roland C. from AP stated quite categorically, that balance was of little consequence. He was speaking of course wrt AP mounts, but as I have a Mach1, his word is gospel. I've not given balance a thought in 15+ years.
Good experiment to bear this out.
Thank Cuiv I’ve always wondered about this but never experimented. I’m a bit ocd when levelling but not going to be so fussy now 👍
Cheers! Be efficient ;)
That is nice to know. Thanks
You're welcome!
Wow.. never realized what a pet peeve it was to other people that some like to level their mounts lol. This comment section is nuts. Level your mount or don't, why do I care? haha. Great video Cuiv, surprised this hasn't been tried yet since it's such a polarizing subject apparently.
Me too! I searched to see if this had been done on video, but it hadn't! So I went for it (plus I knew exactly what would happen since I had subjected my EQ6R to just this years ago but off camera)
Thank you!
Glad you found it interesting!
You just confirmed my experience.
Levelling your tripod is unnecessary, but it can make polar alignment easier. When the base is level, adjustments in altitude (up and down) and azimuth (left and right) are more predictable and independent of each other. This means turning one adjustment knob won’t unintentionally affect the other, simplifying the alignment process.
I always get it somewhat levelled but I don't waste my time on getting it perfect.
If you really think about it, an uneven tripod is kinda like being at different gps coordinates, but really the main reason to levell is to just make sure it's stable.
@@U_Geek can also matter if you are already close to hitting your tripod before or after a meridian flip. Then again, if you are already hitting the tripod on one side, being slightly off level could help.
Close enough to level is enough - as long as it doesn't tip over and the gotos work!
Next to my house i have just views to the north or to the south. If i am on the south side i don't have a view to polaris.
Last i polar align it roughly with a compass and it was 3° outside however, after 3 minutes i couldn't see any star trails!
Telescope 72/420 with EOS 7D Mark II (view: 2.01"/pixel). I use PHD2!
THANK YOU!
I always knew it but now I have proof 🔥
Cheers! I like to provide proof!
Isn't there a problem with image field rotation if you are imaging for may hours?
Nope! I had zero field rotation over several nights. Field rotation depends *uniquely* on polar alignment quality - level doesn't figure into it at all!
From my experience, polar alignment doesn't have to be very precise either. I've been 8 arc minutes off before and guiding was still as good as usual, which for me is 0.5 to 0.7 RMS. The only difference being much more DEC pulses. If you are imaging close to the NCP though, you will get a bit of field rotation.
On standard worn gear mounts, being off by 5-10' can actually be beneficial!
Thank you for demonstrating this. I've seen so many conversations online about having to perfectly level the tripod. It just wastes time.
I always just go for close enough. I then get my polar align within 10 arc sec with Sharpcap. I'm still curious if I would be better off using my starsense to get an allsky polar align to get better alignment for Southern objects with my not so perfect AVX mount
Yep, close enough is usually good enough :) I think I needed to show a visual demonstration :)
Nice to see someone put that to rest.
So does it follow that good polar alignment is not required , just let platesolving and guiding take the strain ?
No, with poor polar alignment the guiding will have to fight in the declination axis (and if the PA is too horrible, guiding will lose that fight!) and you will get field rotation!
I hear that with the latest update, the SeeStar S50 can also track well without perfect balance. Thanks for your work, Michael
Correct! It has a three star alignment (same that the Dwarf II had from the get go) and can estimate its own level and correct for it!
Your next video should demonstrate how far off from polar alignment you can go and still guide well. In that regard, I'm very lazy. I roll my mount out of the garage (three wheeled rollers on each leg) and set the legs on the ground where I have some cross-hairs marked on the concrete. Occasionally, I'll do a drift alignment in PHD2, but usually, I just go for it--I don't even bother doing a guide calibration, unless I think something on my mount may have moved, ro I've changed a setup. And I do plate-solving before each run tolocate the target. I usually get sub arc-second rms guiding just fine!
Have you got a video to help me set up plate solving as a beginner please?
It's old but here it is: th-cam.com/video/lAMyEpBcLV4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2lSOgmbLE_7twxz3
Excellent video!
Does this have any impact on the rotation of the framing on either side of a meridian flip?
None that I could see (they would depend solely on polar alignment)
Was there any field rotation when imaging for a long period of time? thanks for the video !
Nope, no field rotation through several nights of use as is! Field rotation is uniquely a function of polar alignment!
Génial ! Thank you for demonstrating this point ! So useful. What about the polar alignment : how perfect it needs to be ? My mount (the CEM60 that I think you owned at some point of time) is very picky when I try to get the best results !
I’ve been saying this for years. Once polar alignment is done the mount is properly aligned. So is the telescope
What is s an acceptable polar error?
Depends on the gear, but in most cases 10 arc minutes or less is fine!
I have been saying for years. As long as your rig is stable, it is fine (although a bit less straight forward).
But it is simple geometry: to align an axis toward a point, you only need a 2 axis control and their orientation does NOT matter.
Vielen Dank für das tolle Video 👍
Ich habe trotzdem die Frage ob es Ihnen auch möglich ist, grundsätzlich auch diese Audio-Simultan-Übersetzung einzufügen, wie es bei „AstroBackyard“ vorhanden ist?
Oh man that's hard - I had it on, but several people asked me to turn it off because the titles and description were also translated (badly), and the dubbing was bad (probably because of my French accent, TH-cam has trouble translating what I say ...)
Vielen Dank für Deine schnelle Antwort.
Sicherlich ist die Qualität der Übersetzung (noch) nicht perfekt, aber es wäre eine riesige Erleichterung für Menschen deinen Worten zu folgen, die die besondere Qualität deiner Videos zu schätzen wissen, ohne sich auf die schriftliche Übersetzung konzentrieren zu müssen, besonders, wenn deine Erklärungen lange dauern oder du etwas schneller sprichst.
Für Leute, die die englischen Sprache kennen ist es leicht, darauf verzichten zu wollen, aber für viele definitiv nicht. Letztlich kann man diese Funktion auch ausschalten, wenn man sie nicht möchte.
Ich denke, dass ich hier für viele Zuschauer spreche, die jetzt endlich (!) deine tollen Erklärungen bequem folgen könnten!
Do you guide on the actual target for imaging, or a star close enough? If a star by the target is there any difference if that guide is closer or further away from the image target?
Close enough is fine.
Close enough is fine!
Hi Cuiv. Well, unless people are using something other than the buble level supplied with most mounts and tripods, I don't see why it should take more than a minute to level the mount, perhaps two if you're setting up on some really rough ground, but yeah I agree that you don't need to be exactly spot on with the leveling, it would probably be better spending the time checking that you've tightened down everything that you should have ( and yes, I am guilty of not doing that in the past! ).
Exactly - I've seen people take insane amounts of time on leveling so I wanted to make this video 😂
Hey Cuiv, do you have any issues with your SQA55 OTA rotating in the ring while the focuser is moving? My SQA turns with the focuser no matter how tight I get the lock screw. At first I thought the focuser had hit the end of its travel but that isn’t the issue. Askar hasn’t been able to provide any useful info on this. I know I’m not the only one with this issue either.
Oh wow, no, I haven't had a single issue with the SQA55...! And not that. My first instinct would just be to add a layer of adhesive felt in the ring but... Can it be opened?
The first thing I’m going to try is putting some rubber on the tip of the lock screw which is bare aluminum currently, which give almost zero grip on the OTA. But yeah I thought the same thing, however Askar support won’t answer me on if it can be removed from the ring. I think if the camera rotator is unthreaded it can be slid out the front but I haven’t tried it yet.
Great video! So how precise do you have to be with polar alignment? I try to be under 1' of error, but sometimes (especially if it is too cold), I give up around my pixel scale x 30 (most my rigs are between 3" and 4", so i give up between 1.5' to 2'). Should I be toughing it out to get under 1' on those nights too?
Honestly for most rigs 10' is enough, 5' is more than enough, 1' is faaaaar more than needed!
I think with the ASIair the polar alignment assistance gives you a 😊 at 5’ and allows you to finish. I don’t know if that is generated by my equipment or that’s hard coded. I usually try to get lower than that as I’ve assumed less is better!
I have an eq6 and meridian flip won't work if the mount is not leveled (with as 115mm refractor) I imagine it would not make any difference with my 60mm refractor
That's weird - I had no issues with meridian flip, did you sync the mount and use plate solving?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek yes, I always use plate solving. Took me a while to find the issue because I normally never bother with levelling but the balance was probably too far for the mount to take care of. Everything else was like in your video though 😃
This is not silly at all. It would have been interesting to see the motor actions in comparison in the leveled and non leveled case. It would as well have been interesting to see the difference of picture rotation in the leveled (none) and unleveled case. I think this is the difference that counts when stacking the pictures. Kind regards from Germany!
Good point on the field rotation - and as expected over several nights: none at all (it makes sense since it relies only on polar alignment!)
I can't see Polaris from my balcony, so i use ASIair all-sky polar alignment. Would being unlevelled affect the calculations used for this process?
I never worry about leveling my mount, but I confess, that is WAY more out of level than I would be comfortable with. With a GEM, at least your center of mass should stay over the center of the tripod, but with the strain-wave, that's not true.
It's also very true with strain wave, even more so due to the lack of CW!! I have to admit I was also stressed about it, but ended up using it as is for several nights 😂
Worked this out ages ago. My backyard is very uneven but I always get very accurate guiding
Yep! But somehow a lot of people weren't convinced!
Good to know about levelling. I see that you are using the Askar SQA55. Should I get the Askar SQ55A or the Askar 65PHQ with the reducer. I am still a beginner with SeeStar S50 and SVbony 503 102ED rig with ZWO 2600MC Air, AM5, rig. I need something ligther to go around.
Bad Japanese winter means only bad seeing! Over here in The Netherlands seeing is the thing I'm not that worried about. It's the lack of clear skies that annoys me. It's been cloudy ever since November. We've only had about an 8 hours of observation time since November. There's the continuous low hanging stratus cloud base that refuses to move. And the Sun is something you see on TV! ;)
I live in the south of the country and I've had way more than 8 hours of clear skies. I think it's been more than 25-30 hours since November, at least. The sad thing is that my D3 won't come until mid-February...
Never mind, I see that Dwarflab ran into ANOTHER delay. It's mid March now... The lead time went from 8-10 weeks to 16-18.
Oh you lucky guys! 😊 yeah, I saw that away from the coast you guys got more lucky. Here in The Hague it’s been really cloudy lately. Right now it’s another streak of cloudy nights (and days). It’s day 7 without any hint of clear skies.
So when will we see the review of the out of focus SQA85 in the background? Quite a teaser
A little bird told me...
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Next week
Interesting experiment. I would like to see an attempt at an auto meridian flip with the mount out of level. I have found that good leveling is important to maintain the same framing of a target after the flip, especially if it fully fills the frame. (The mount does the flip, then ASIAIR/Nina attempts to plate solve and recenter)
Framing and rotation would still be correct as long as properly polar aligned.
@@brandon079 Actually not according to the ZWO tech that I addressed this question with.
@@mkc9525 a zwo tech can be wrong.
I used it as is for multiple nights, including auto meridian flip - no issues whatsoever.
Hi Cuiv,
Do you think it would be the same guiding RA only? as in a Star Adventurer.
Thanks
I always use my tripod unleveled 😑 I live at 69°N and my mounts adjustment doesn't really like to go that high.
Well that's a workaround!!
@CuivTheLazyGeek and just like you showed, it causes the polar alignment to be a bit of an iterative process, but I have marked the spots where my tripod legs should be so PA takes at most 2-3 minutes. I always use plate solving so go-to works just fine too.
If you dont navigate via coordinates, leveling doesnt matter. You can pin the mount to a wall if you want, as long as the axis of rotation is aligned properly.
Our observatory's chairman is using a well-sophisticated technique to level his mount, utilizing a jig with a plummet. But that's not what's missing in his images...
Absolutely!
Great video! Some questions (for you or anyone). It looks like you have NINA measure point distance set t 10 degrees, yet your mount seems to end up rotating 90 degrees. Why is your mount seem to be moving that much? And does it matter whether this is 10 degrees, 20 degrees, or more? And noticed that even after you were happy with PA, it was constantly drifting. Sorry for being thick, but is this normal or due to the unlevel mount? I see the same behavior on my pier and have to PA each night.
Anyway, thanks again.
Oh it's the starting point! It starts at a given point that was quite far from home, and *then* it rotated twice 10 degrees!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks very much - I understand now. Clear skies to you always!
Very interesting video.
But still, doesn't this mean that the guiding will be constantly correcting the declination error, whereas if you had it levelled then _theoretically_ the dec motor should not have to move at all?
And so you might end up with slight errors if you have a bit of backlash in the dec?
This is good to know though, and I'm definitely storing this info away in my astro nugget box for the next time I forget to level my mount!
No! The declination movements (and field rotation) depend *uniquely* on polar alignment! Level doesn't factor in it at all, as long as polar alignment is good!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I've been trying to wrap my head around this for the last few days but my brain remains unconvinced. 😂
But that said, I trust what you're saying, it just hasn't clicked with me yet!
That's going to save me a ton of time. Thank you for living up to your namesake. Lol
NIce test. Just a warning Nina team does not recomend usa the 3-point near the pole, there is even a image showing the good declinations to align (45 degress).
Weeeeeeelll, kind of, and kind of not - to quote the creator of the plugin "near the pole is fine", and "it's a double edged sword. the initial calc will be more precise most likely due to larger point spread, the correction phase will have more potential issues" (effectively near the pole, you have more time to get the polar alignment right without accumulating tracking errors)
He intentionally set the defaults (which is what I am using) to be near the pole...
"i've setup the defaults for the plugin to work for most cases
and those are set to be near the pole. works well for me"
@@CuivTheLazyGeek great answer my friend! Thanks for your time
I never spend much time leveling, just get it close and go. Now if you want to run a mount in Alt-Az, this is far more important as it will effect gotos
Yep!!
Better than my best levelling efforts :)
😂
Fantastic experiment thank you! but slightly scary watching your scope looking so precarious 😂
I was stressed out as well 😂 but in the end i used it for several nights like that!
When your mount is not leveled, the polar alignment is a nightmare. That's where the big hurdle is. So it's worth taking 10 min to level the mount, especially during the daytime, so that polar alignment is a breeze.
I have to assume this would also apply to the S50 and S30 scopes. We don't polar, well you know. Yet. I've had my S50 about a year and leveling was always part of the setup. Maybe not anymore.
He said this doesn't apply for Alt/Az, which is what the SeeStars are. Now they do perform plate solving, but the thing is it literally take less than a minute to level (less than 30 sec if you use a leveler attachment) that why not spend that tiny amount of time to get a decent level. Not saying you need 0.0 but sub 1.0 is trivial and 0.5 isn't hard at all with an attachment.
No. Leveling is absolutely necessary for an alt/az mount like a seestar.
The Seestar S50 now performs an alignment estimation based on three points in the sky (like the Dwarf II and III) and automatically compensates for level issues! But it used to require perfect level (no longer thanks to software magic!)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek That's probably the best explanation I've seen on why leveling is not so important or needed anymore on the Seestars. In the main Seestar FB group, when the issue of leveling comes up it usually a bunch of people saying they never level and don't have issues, but rarely if ever an explanation of why. Thanks for this.
Great content! Do you have any opinion on the Ragdoll 20 mount by any chance? It has some really impressive payload numbers (20kg-30kg with and without the counterweight) while costing only $1899! Would it be possible to make a review of this budget beast too?
I was thinking about this the other night after moving my tripod to a different spot. Automatic dithering LOL
I don't go over 30 seconds and only track in RA under a minute subs so far. Great Video!
😂
It affects goto during visual, your first goto will be very far from target. People forget how visual still needs a decent hand controller and accurate goto
Correct! As I showed in the video, the first goto will be off by the misalignment level..... Unless you re-home the mount! So on an EQ6R for instance you can manually move the CW bar to point straight to the ground (so at a weird angle to the unlevel mount itself) and set home position - then the first goto will work (I tried it off camera back when I had the EQ6R!)
Apart from the pier in the observatory I've never gone to mad levelling the mount near enough is good enough as far as I'm concerned, I've seen endless debates in forums & groups over the years but this just proves you don't, plus with platesolving tech readily available these days only strengthens the argument. Although I must admit seeing your scope slewing I would have probably fitted a counterweight just for good measure as it did look pretty scary at times.
Yes it was scary! And I used the darn thing as is for 5 nights in a row! :)
Cuiv, firstly thank you for all the great content. Wondering if you could do a video on the AM5 or AM3 in Alt-Az mode with no guide scope? Im in the market for the AM3 and would gladly go through your link with High Point Scientific for my purchase! I'd also like to see how it's run with the software for a laptop and the app. Im itching to pull the trigger, Im mostly interested in this right now for planetary imaging. I understand this may seem elementary but I'd love some help before I buy it! Thank you sir!
Est-ce que c'est ton propre balcon ou est-ce un balcon commun pour tout l'immeuble?
C'est le mien à moi! Sur le toit de ma maison (quatrième étage, le terrain à Tokyo ça coûte la peau des fesses, donc les maisons ont plein d'étages!)
Hi Cuiv, thank you for the video! I am taking my photos from an enclosed balcony in a Bortle 9 (happy times I know) and this video helps alot because my balcon is a little bit slanted and I thought that my poor trackingis is due to the mount not being perfectly leveled. I have an AM5N mount with a SW 50ED guide scope with ASI220MM Mini guide cam for an askar 71f scope. Can you please share your PHD2 settings? I get about 1.2-1.5 RMS error. Keep up the good work!
Use the guiding assistant :)
@@pompeymonkey3271 Any idea which algorithm to use for tracking? Also, for how long should i leave the guide assist? (usually i leave it for about 2-3 minutes)
Default algos are good, just make sure to use 1s exposures (or even 0.5s) and multi star guiding! Increase the gain if you don't see any stars. And try to be as close as possible to best focus! Ra and Dec aggressiveness are unchanged (70 and 100), but min movement is 0.15 on both axes. Good luck!
@CuivTheLazyGeek Thank you. I will try!
I never level if I'm polar aligning
More important is to ensure the legs don't sink into the ground through the night... And the cat stays away
Oh yes, that's for sure!!!!
I just lay my iPhone flat on the tripod spreader plate with the measure level app open. Works perfectly fine and levelling is done within a minute.
I recommend a bubble level. The less I have to pull out my phone the better.
That works! I've seen people spend 30 minutes in perfect leveling and that's too much! :)
Some mounts won't accept a large correction in a sync.
Correct, but I have yet to see a mount that would reject something less than 10 degrees - even EQMOD isn't that strict!
Thank you for the perfect explanation but its bring risk for the equipments , even leveling the mount on any concrete or steel stud not so criticsl, by the way performing another test by pointing the stud nearly to the celestrial pol or making concrate or table surface prependicukar to the polar line and the mount will be alt azimuth confoguration, like skywacher mount, l like your spelling Alhamal in Arabic accent and i is maching the original spelling 😊.
If you subscribe to Cuiv at a higher level, not only will your skies be clearer, but your mount won't tip over even though it looks as if it should... 😉👍👍
Hahaha it's my magnetism! Make sure the mount can be affected by magnetism for this to work!
I’ve said this for years, if being perfectly level mattered, the tripods would come with a much better bubble system.
Yes, you are Yabatan...
A Seestar does not care about being level except when looking for the moon or sun.
Correct - it has a routine to check its level-ness (or lack thereof) and account for it, basically via a three star alignment (Dwarf II also did that from the get go). But when the S50 was launched, it didn't have this software feature and absolutely needed to be well leveled! Most AltAz mounts do even now :)
what about unguided ! :)
Same thing :) DEC deviation only depends on the polar alignment :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek
@@CuivTheLazyGeek
Why do people even worry about this? You will never get a portable rig absolutely level unlike a pier mounted rig. That said, it is so, so, so easy to get it really close with just a spirit level. Is this really a "Lazy" issue or a "Lazy" issue??? We are always talking about diminishing returns for effort put it, is this not just the same, but in a mechanical form?
You should see the debates on Cloudy nights!!
I knew this many years ago. Levelling is only important for an AZ mount.
That's an az mount right? I'm guessing an eq would have bigger problems with the tripod being far off level? Or no?
It's an equatorial mount. Hence the polar alignment!
It's an EQ mount. Levelness matters a lot more with an alt/az mount than an eq mount.
EQ mount! AltAz usually rely on good leveling!!
What about field rotation? If mount is far from level, I assume will apperas a field rotation. Isn't it?. In your case should not be very large, but probably something below 5º in a full night session. Have you noticed anything?
For a small unlevel, I assume it will be not detectable.
Nope, field rotation depends uniquely on polar alignment! I had zero field rotation throughout the several nights I used the mount like that!
This video is true as long as you have autoguiding as it will compensate for the errors, but without autoguiding then better do the levelling of your mount as best as you can
Why though? Declination drift depends only on polar alignment, not level
@@CuivTheLazyGeekI guess you are right about this, but for me with my mount that has only RA motor, getting the scope pointing to the target is cumbersome specially with 600mm focal length without the levelling, I made a DYI degrees markings on the declination bracket to get the scope pointing as close as possible to the the target. If there is a 5 degree error due to levelling, it would take me a very long time to manually correct the Declination angle.
But as you said if the mount is perfectly polar aligned then tracking would be good, but getting the cope to the target manually becomes more difficult for my mount at least.
Why do you think it takes10 minutes to level a tripod, it only takes me 1 minute if I take my time and go for perfection, 30 seconds if I go for close enough
Barry Allen would be proud of you
Because this is not a competition and you do not get points for being faster. Do not tell people they are doing something wrong if it takes them 10 minutes just because it takes you 1 minute.
@@Darren_71 you don't need to be the Flash, you only adjust 2 legs one time each, anyone can do it in that time when they know how, even Slowpoke Rodriguez
@@aaronwmorris Cuiv said himself he was worried about it toppling over, a level tripod is the best way to reduce that risk, I was only pointing out that if you learn the right technique it can be done quickly.
I've seen someone spend 30 minutes on perfect tripod leveling! So I wanted to make this to show that very rough 10s leveling is enough!
I think that if one does EAA and does not use guiding, having the mount level is useful.
Nope, as long as the mount is polar aligned, tracking will not be affected by the mount being level.
In equatorial mode, leveling the mount does not matter for EAA or observations. What was not really mentioned in the video is that leveling is very important for Alt/Az mounts.
In theory, no. If you use the Celestron all star polar align, that routine actually relies on leveling (but that's for both EAA and astrophoto). For altaz mounts, leveling us critical!
Whenever I hear someone that wastes so much time on leveling their tripod I'm getting a stroke, this just annoys me so much how irrelevant that is.
Oh don't let it annoy you! I view it as part of the ceremony of getting ready for imaging! I just want people to know they can skip that little ceremony if they wish to!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I once saw someone doing it for 20 minutes, that killed me XD
Thank you for this informative video!
I have a question about your experience with image field rotation. As I understand it, the image field rotation should be clearly visible if there is a large deviation in the levelling. As a result, you might have to cut off significant parts of the image in the final stack.
No field rotation whatsoever across multiple nights - field rotation on an EQ mount depends *only* on polar alignment, leveling doesn't factor into it at all