I love how its becoming apparent that a ton of weapons we previously thought of as being highly stylized in artwork are turning out to be literal interpretations. Scythian bows spring to mind. Prior historians though the very dramatic, almost eccentrically curved depictions in artwork were simply heavily stylized artistic representations. Then a few digs of scythian burial mounds show that, nope, actually they really were that shape, and were actually highly effective at giving a horseman a lot of power for a short, highly manueverable draw in the saddle. I have seen drawings or paintings of individuals holding or throwing "giant arrows" and always just assumed it was a sort of metaphor that was easier to draw or paint than somebody shooting a bow. Had no idea until I saw this video that it was a literal interpretation. Very interesting!
In the manuscripts describing the battles of the Swiss (roughly 14th to 16th century) I saw often them mentioning a weapon they called a "Schiffelin", I couldn't really make much of that word untill it dawned to me that it must be my ancestors mutilation of the term "javelin". My impression from the old texts is that they were very much brought to the battlefield as the individual choice of a warrior, in other words by someone who was proficient in the use of this weapon, confident that they would be able to make good enough deadly use of it that it was worthwile the effort of carrying them around untill the actual place of battle was reached. The Swiss typically would open a hostile encounter by throwing anything they could get their hands on, from rocks picked of the ground to empty bottles at the enemy. I guess that would also be the moment when the "Schiffelins" as precise and deadly missile weapons were brought into play, capable of doing substantially bigger harm than an empty beer boottle.
When doing research on the Lithuanian military I reached out to the Nation Museum of Lithuania and one of their historians told me that Lithuanians did actually use a form of atlatyl/spear throwing stick called an "ietisvadae" (spelled from memory). With which they launched similar javelins with sufficient force to be useful against padded, leather, linen, and chain armor at closer ranges. The historian insisted these weapons were mentioned in the sources, but I have not seen them myself. Still, it might be worth looking into.
@@TemenosL depends on the form and period. In the middle ages we see cuirboille (sp.) here and there, usually as supplementary limb armor, we see leather lamellar pretty widespread through time and geography, we see the top layer of some layered linen armors as leather or hide sometimes, and we see the leather Spolas among the greeks (the Sagas reference a reindeer hide armor as well). So leather armor is around, the problem is just people have pretty bad misunderstandings about it... and we have alot of gaps in our knowledge which people really don't like to accept and deal with.
My Grandad showed me how to make similar to these when I was a little kid, except he called them french arrows. We used to nick his bean pole garden canes, make some plastic flights from pop bottles and stick a blunted off nail for a point, and use a boot lace to fire them. We could chuck them a fair way an all. Great fun.
They seem to be known by many names according to Wikipedia. Swiss, Dutch, Scotch, Yorkshire and Gypsy Arrows are the names they mention. No mention of time-frame of use and in what contexts. Most of what I've seen seems to imply them mostly being thrown for fun much like RedUK describes or occasionally in survival situations. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_arrow
My grandad didnt think so when half his bean poles went missing, and also within the fortnight almost every kid I knew was making them. The local park was like something out of Zulu, eventually the police got involved because of the complaints about large numbers of spear chucking 11 year olds down the rec, lol.
RedUK. When I was a lad growing up in the 1950s, we called them Dutch arrows. They were usually made out of long bamboo canes with cardboard flights. A notch was cut in the cane about 6 inches from the flights for the knotted cord something to grip onto.
Just to add to the sentiment of some of the responses, I would say that when you set up for your first volley at the approaching enemy you probably have it slung with the string giving it its longest range distance and you're probably behind paveses or Shields... Subsequent volleys would be at a closer range and in Rapid succession and you wouldn't use the string you would just toss and pray...
@@tods_workshop Right at the start of a charge, throw a dart with the string, Mid charge throw a dart without, draw melee weapon as you close the last bit of distance. Or constantly moving in and out of cover/range of the enemy throwing a few and then breaking contact. Think less static fight and more skirmishing tactics. Greek Peltasts fought much the same way.
Almus Quotch Actually, its a much older weapon. Often use together with an atlatl. Its pre- bow and arrow, so we are talking thousands of years old. Most people today think of natives in south america when they think of an atlatl, but its used all over the wourld. Me, I didnt know they used in the dark age, but I knew we used it in pre historical ages. Stoneage, bronzeage etc.
We call it as Dark age because people kneel down to high powers... God, lords, land lords, no real dignity as humans. also don't have the courage to speak facts, or they burn you as a witch. Because of these, there were no real inventions in entire dark age. (unlike Rome's time)
Yeah I have a feeling that's more a reflection on how little research you do, this is an extremely common weapon used throughout human history by countless groups of people who were geographically isolated from each other. Oh btw since this blew your mind you should look up this thing called a spear, it's like a dart but thicker and you can use it in melee too!
Well according to English when describing Irish warfare they were consider more of a nuisance against cavalry but not very effective. They don't have the weight to go through armor or weigh down shields like a true javelin and they don't have the range or speed that a bow or crossbow can generate. They are more used for light armored skirmishes and naval warfare rather than full on battles.
used to make what we called "dutch arrows " atle atle as a kid , using a 1-1.5cm garden cane ( bamboo the flex of the bamboo adds power if thrown right ) 3- 4 feet long ,with card or duck tape fletchings and a 4 inch nail with some lead tape to balance it at the tip . with a throwing string .and as a skinny 11 year old i could put one through a car door or lodge 2-3 inches of the tip into a pine scaffold plank that's about the same as a 40-50lb bow ,and with practice nearly as accurate ...some 40 years later every now and then i think about making one using modern materials or even just better construction and man sized .. take it from me you don't want to be on the receiving end of one they are easily as valid a weapon as a bow and arrows and use less materials and skills to construct... while like you say they dont have the range of a bow the projectile has way more mass than an arrow or bolt .. it would be nice if someone could test the impacts of both to compare .. but like you say superseded by the more modern bow and xbow ...
We used to make these in the mid seventies as kids. Those skinny, green garden canes with card flights. Sharpened & fire hardened & often with a largish nut screwed on the end. We used the notch & length of string with a knot at one end to launch them. We called them "Dutch arrows". This was in Paignton, Devon. We could get huge ranges once you'd got the "atl-atl" knack. Great fun & accurate too once you got your eye in.
The Carthaginians used a light throwing spear from horseback. A leather thong was used and it was wound around the shaft to give it a spin for accuracy and range.
"wound around the shaft to give it a spin for accuracy and range." Was going to mention that as Tod didn't. I expected to see the javelin spinning in flight
I suspect there would be a lot of situation where reserve troops were standing a short distance behind a shield or pike line. An extra few yards would be helpful for them, and they'd have time to reset. I think this would be true any time you're behind some kind of defensive formation or in a siege as well. Some years ago someone on Swordforum shared statistics on casualties by weapon type in different eras. I think the point being made in the forum was that casualty source usually went mechanical projectile, polearm, hand-thrown projectile, and that swords were often a distant fourth. Detailed historical sources are somewhat limited in value as they are often estimates, and won't necessarily distinguish between, say, mechanical-thrown and hand-thrown rocks, or between javelins, pikes and ballista-type projectiles.
We used to make them as kids and that was early 1960s, probably our dad showed us. Usually out of cane, old playing cards for flights and bit of lead for weight at the front. Obviously they were lighter and the distance we got them was amazing but we enjoyed lobbing them as high as possible and watching them come, pretty well, straight down. Suppose it would be classed as to dangerous today but I don't recall anyone getting hurt.
I was just online last night looking for resources on Darts/ javelins... trying to get more familiar with Irish skirmishers - Ancient/ early middle ages- "Kerns" all were described as using these ! thanks for the upload
Couple of things: I was shown a south american throwing dart once. About 3ft long, flat cross-section, hardened wooden tip. Instead of fletching, it had a cross of wood (carved in) that had thread woven across it to make a flat diamond. This looked like it would not work - however, we tried it across the room, maybe 15ft. Not only was it easy to throw straight and true, it penetrated a loosely propped sheet of 1/4" ply. Second thing; modern javelins fly true due to balancing and aerodynamic shape. It would be easier to make a straight shaft, stick a point on then some feathers than to mass produce well balanced hafts with a point.
Funny, I just today looked at some pictures from Dürer (was looking for the Messer and Dagger work) and saw his drawing of Irish soldiers and they had such a throwing dart. Made me wonder what that is... And now I stumbled over your video. Very nice and informative, thanks!
While completely reasonable that they wouldn't use a string either at all or maybe some of the time. If they did it prolly would have been for the first initial shot as to get the extra range on advancing troops.
My assumption is the same as yours, use a string thrown dart in the first instance when you have time to attach it prior to engagement and then throw the rest freehand as it were.
I was going to make the same point, use it for the first shot, the shots after you really don't need it. The enemy will definitely have advanced the 8 meters
@@Jafmanz in that case it could also help your advance to throw one dart from further away so that you're most likely ready to throw another one after your side has advanced the distance difference
I admit, I first expected a plumbata rather than a fletched javelin. A bit of smaller, perhaps 1 feet plus long. Regardless, this is very interesting! Didn't know they were used in naval warfare and all that.
An Atlatl would make more sense in the case of the Throwing String idea. It used the same idea of lengthening the throw, and you don't fumble it nearly as easily. I wish there were videos of that. Otherwise, this is a great look at a really cool weapon, and I love Tod's Workshop.
When i was a young lad one of my friends dad showed us how to make throwing darts from bamboo cane.. playing cards.and a couple of heavy nails..and a piece of string... by the end of the summer we could throw them the length of the football field and be very accurate... ( in the goalposts) Quite a sight 10/12 lads with our arrows.... i was 9 then... im 57 now Ours were two and a half too three feet long...
@Weedus I love Plumbata for one of the main disadvantages of these Javelins: Ammo Capacity. How many of those do you think you can carry with a sword, and shield? Okay, now throw in a longarm like a halberd, or Doppelhander. It just might be a Halberd, OR a 1 shot javelin, maybe 2. (I personally prefer a good Warhammer) The Romans could carry a bunch of Plumbata in leather loops, tacked into the backs of their Skuta. (Round Tower Shields.) They may not be as effective, but compare that with 8 rounds of .45, or 20 rounds of Para Bellum...
Something that games have ruined for the historically minded (That includes craftsmen, and re-enactors) is the Magic Backpack. Or character sheet, it's easy to write down [...And 3 javelins.] When the players have never carried a shield, for any length of time, let alone with anything else. Tried to draw a sword, with a shield on their arm, let's say after throwing a Javelin. With a shield strapped onto their arm, in a mass full of guys with shields, and spears, trying to draw their swords while the enemy is charging through the field of Pilum sticking out of the ground. So, it's really a choice, for the commander, what he wants his troops to carry: Maybe 2 shots of Pilum (Of different weights/ranges) or potentially maybe 5 volleys of Plumbata, for each soldier.
We don't know why the Romans had a short sword, when they were arguably the only civilization with good enough steel to issue ALL of their soldiers with longer swords, but that's my theory: Their shields, and the Pilum. The sword is always a sidearm, to be drawn when the ranks break up into a melee. However, if you want to organize volleys of javelins, under the protection of tower shields, and still be able to all draw swords at once. (Without breaking up the superior defense of their shield walls, with roofs) A short sword actually makes more sense for Close quarters, in a crush of bodies. For duels, like the Gladiatorial Arena, they actually had longer swords, but I don't believe they needed them in ranks, because of the Way the Romans fought in ranks.
@@Psiberzerker I don't think these would be used by the line infantry, but by the light infantry in skirmishing. We have references going back to at least Alexander of light troops armed with javelins "The peltasts raised from the Agrianes were the elite light infantry of the Macedonian army. They were often used to cover the right flank of the army in battle, being posted to the right of the Companion cavalry, a position of considerable honour. They were almost invariably part of any force on detached duty, especially missions requiring speed of movement. Peltasts were armed with a number of javelins and a sword, carried a light shield but wore no armour, though they sometimes had helmets; they were adept at skirmishing and were often used to guard the flanks of more heavily equipped infantry. They usually adopted an open order when facing enemy heavy infantry. They could throw their javelins at will at the enemy and, unencumbered by armour or heavy shields, easily evade any counter-charges made by heavily equipped hoplites. They were, however, quite vulnerable to shock-capable cavalry and often operated to particular advantage on broken ground where cavalry was useless and heavy infantry found it difficult to maintain formation"
Loved this video, if you file a nook, similar to an arrow nook, in the fletched end, you can easily and quickly put the looped end of your throwing string/cord or thong over this and run your gripped hand to a point just behind the balance point, insuring that the cord is tight (easy to do if they are stuck in the ground next to you). You can heft the dart a serious distance this way, esp if the looped end is weighted with half an ounce of lead. I found the same technique doubled the dissidence i could chuck the replica Roman-plumbata I made or could drive my darts throw half inch thick pine planks ... hell that was a good day.
Cool that you show and explain such "niche" weapons. I think they are specially usefull for sieges. Caeser describes "wall javelins" beeing used by the gauls. And the way he describes them suggest that roman readers are also familiar with them. So i guess these might be what he describes and that their tradition dates back into antiquity.
I used to make a variation of this as a kid.. a bunch of us used to make them out of hazel or bamboo. Playing cards as flights and shoe lace to throw them. Very light and about as long as a convention arrow from a bow. The notch for the string was at the rear and it was thrown from the tip. They would go at least 200 feet.
When I was young, we used to make similar things from bamboo garden canes. They were about half the size of the ones you have in the video. We made fletchings from tape or card and the point was usually a nail. We also used a length of knotted string as a propulsion aid. They were bloody lethal but good fun.
on the subject of the string , when i made atlatl throwers u used a Y piece of antler as a front rest and another point at the back to engage the knock , however 2 x Y antlers and a point at the knock could be super fast to load , and as secure as a crossbow bolt with just one fingers pressure.
Yes deadly and very frustrating and annoying for the enemy. Ancient armies were really cruel to each other. But I supposed it was survival by any means atall.
I could see a string possibly being used on one's first throw, likely prepared in some fashion before any combat is taking place, after which you cease the use of the string unless there's a lull in action. You could also perhaps wrap them prior to engagement, and stick them on with some wax or something to keep them from coming undone before use.
I made a few of these things when I was 10 - 13 years old from bamboo about 80cm long and with card vanes. Obviously not weaponised like that one. Even thrown by a child using a string it'll go a long way. With a spiked tip,such as a nail attached to the end it'd be a dangerous weapon with quite some reach. With practice attaching the launching string isn't difficult or particularly fiddly. And with a "throwing arrow" (which is what I called it) which is about half your total arm span long you can hold it near the tip when you throw.
Yeah we used to make similar but smaller versions we called "french arrows" when we were kids, they also had a small length of string attached to the weighted end which helped gain distance in the throw
@Paul Osc Slots We used to throw them at each other :) usually with a dart ( the sport darts you throw at a board ) as the nose weight, the 80's were so much fun.
I used to do something very like this back in the middle 1950's, a length of dowel with a small ring cut near the end by the flights which we used playing cards folded in slots, with a knotted string to throw, never put heads on ( thank the lord ) but the went great distances.
I've used both and the string sling is better. It gives the same amount of range but the string can put spin on the dart that allows it to fly more straight. Also the string is very easy to carry and to make as its just a strip of leather or twine.
Gallowglass I can throw a similar weighted, even slightly heavier, dart almost 100 yards with an atlatl. Something must have been wrong with your atlatl technique.
Atlatl darts are also known to out penetrate hunting weight bows.Though I have found heavy darts penetrate about twice as far as an 80 longbow into dense foam targets. I highly doubt these hand/sling thrown darts come close to that level of penetration.
We used to make them as kids & called them French arrows they went a good distance.however we held them and threw them differently held them by the point with the fletch pointing away got more whip with the string.
Interesting video. We made throwing darts as kids in the 1970s using green garden canes and cereal box card for the flights. We also used a throwing string and to this day I have absolutely no idea where the idea came from. Just another weapon in our arsenal along with peg guns and catapults!
@Oliver hunters have used throwing spears... for many millenia what? Slings too and slings make a sharp whipping sound when spun so I imagine they're all pretty devastating if you know what you're doing.
@Oliver no? Look at documented indigenous tribes in Africa such as the Maasai they regularly hunt with thrown spears while on foot. There’s footage of them on TH-cam of how they approach a hunt
Atlatles (tried my best) had a little divot on the back of the shaft where a sort of hook or horn would attach right? Perhaps they (throwing darts) had a notch like you’d see on the back of arrows to latch a looped knot onto, it would have been much easier to ready and faster to fire more than looping the knot on itself around the shaft, is there any evidence showing such notches in the darts to be found?
Watching the video from Shadiversity. It's quite eye opening seeing the two of you throw, and you are talking about a ranged weapon, 20 to 30 meters is so damn close! today we talk about ranged weapons and your enemy is so far away you can't see the enemy. With these weapons you are either about to get engaged in brutal melee combat in seconds unless you are in an elevated position or there are your own melee warriors between you and your enemy.
Coastal Gaming I think these were used in skirmishing light infantry (Slingers, Javelin Men, Dart Throwers, Etc) screen in front of the line infantry. They'd pull back through the later and reform behind them
Very interesting, though I wish you would have shown some target firing and possibly penetration testing as well (but I get it if that's not your thing). Just wanted to mention, I've seen an alternative to your throwing string which I actually found easier to use (but still a bit fiddly and it can take a while to "load") -- just grab a leather thong and tie a loop in one end. Wrap it around the spear in a screw-thread pattern with the loose end underneath a wrap. Now when you throw, the leather adds a kind of rifling to the projectile. Apparently it was used by some native American tribes for throwing arrows if their bows were inaccessible or unusable and made a great peacetime sport. The man from whom I heard about this (in the Primitive Technology article series) described a 300ft arrow throw using this method.
We found that a spiral wind of the string caused more drag at release & often just messed up the throw. A slight bend on the flights would impart a much more efficient spin stabilisation.
This weapon would make most sense while standing above your enemy, this way you do get a slight range boost and gravity can add some extra speed with which the damage increases as well. Aside from that, this weapon may have been used on the battlefield as additional weapon, not as main weapon. This because you throw one or two before you charge in. Another usage may be with pikemen or other units with long pointy weapons in front, then the war dart units and then then bowmen. It would make more sense in that perspective. You can throw your war dart over the men in front of you while they protect you while the bowmen can shoot over you and still hit their ranges. Once you are out of war darts, you pick up your main melee weapon (which is likely a sword or a short variant on that).
I would think it would be used against guys with two handed weapons such as pikes. Most likely only the rich would have metal armor which would leave some pike men vulnerable. If both sides had pikes and one side had war darts sticking in them, I image that the other side would be able to have a better advantage. Even if the other side didn't have pikes the first side would no longer have that good of a reach advantage.
Having used these extensively when i was younger, shorten the spear in half or a third so it starts to resemble a dart and tie the end of the string around a small stone, then check your distance when throwing.
If you’re used to putting on a string it’s incredibly fast and you can do it at the same time as you’re raising the spear. The same can be said for distance too, if you hold the spear and string just beneath the head, making a longer string, you get a much greater distance.
People were using sticks like throwing strings. But I don't know if they were using it in the medieval ages. This is the first time I hear about this weapon in the medieval context.
True maybe not in a front line charge but as a ambush weapon or from a wall or defended posituin some where where you have the time to set it up they would work a treat.
Read about these in old Irish annals and English descriptions, used by Irish Kerne who carried 3 for skirmishing, string already attached to each, English described as very accurate with good range, interesting that English writers described the string as wrapped 3 times around shaft to cause a spin.
Hello, Tod. In antiquity the amentum was partly wound, but that was done with regular javelins, would it have an adverse effect on these fletched ones?
Natural feathers are aerofoil in profile, so impart spin. If the sttring/thong was wound in the wrong direction the two would be in conflict, losing efficiency, when thrown. Though with such a heavy shaft & head I wonder what effect, if any, the spin-force could have over such short distances, compared with feathers on much lighter arrowshafts & heads.
Once you mentioned the throwing string, another variation using a stick-form, the atlatl, came to mind. While it doesn't seem to appear in any of the manuscripts you pictured in the video, it would eliminate the fiddling about with the string, provide a quick "loading" mechanism, and improve velocity and distance, and perhaps accuracy. What are your thoughts on that? Would love to see you explore the feasibility in another video. :) Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I really enjoy watching your videos.
I think the idea is that you throw them like a stick (you hold them near the fletching and swing the pointy end around as hard as possible) you can throw much harder that way and it wil stabilize itself in the air to always land point first.
interesting point about the throwing string. But I would like to point out that medieval people probably used knots all the time so they might have been more proficient at it.
There is also the possibility that they used the string but only once. Or used it only from encamped or elevated positions. Think of an RPK light machine gun. They use a 75rd drum magazine. Carrying around many drum magazines makes sense except that you can fit 3 standard 30 round magazines into the same space. A drum only makes sense for an initial engagement, an encamped (defending engagement), or a sustained supressive fire. Most soldiers therefore only carry 1 drum magazine and the rest are standard 30 round magazines. They discard the drum after it is used up. If you are preparing for an engagement, you could easily have the string engaged for the first throw and discard it for subsequent throws as they have closed in the 10 or 20 meters advantage you initially had.
An opponent can close 30 meters fast, as can the thrower. In keeping with the skirmisher idea this seems like a distraction weapon to give the thrower a moment to close or to run. Could it produce casualties on armored opponents using shields not likely but I suspect it could produce casualties if thrown at archers, it may also throw off their aim.
If you have two darts, you could throw the first at 30 m range, having prepared the string while approaching, then throw the second when you’re 10 m closer. That way you get the extra range a string offers, and don’t have to fumble with it while your enemy is rushing you. I agree that you wouldn’t want to fiddle with something like that any time your enemy is as close as 20 m; they could probably run over and run you through in the time it would take. But I can see a case for the string nonetheless.
You could put a short length of string with a loop on it, or just a long loop onto a short stick and use that method, the string/loop and stick should be about half the length of the javelin.
There are this spear-throwers / propulsors that were popular in the stone age. they are basically just a stick that's used as a lever to propell the spear: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower Does anyone know of something similar being used in the Middle Ages? I've seen them being used and they were quite impresive. They look like a good weapon for light skirmishers in the early middle ages or ancient times.
GerackSerack I have seen some depictions of Medieval Atlatl style clubs. Though tended not to be as popular as just throwing them for warfare. (Throwing was slightly faster it seems.)
That slow-motion shot of Lara gave me chills, can easily imagine a warrior hurling it down field in a skirmish. Just a comment on the throwing string, some times adding a couple of wraps around the shaft can give the projectile greater oomph. Additionally, the strings could have pre-secured to the weapon ahead of time, either fixed with a small amount of pitch or wax, or possibly even tied to the shaft itself, more similar to an ankyle. And one more thought, my understanding is that the string was longer, and that often the projectile was held not near the center of balance, but at the head, where the string terminated.
The amentum string should be attached to javelin and at least one wrap for spin more for longer distances. Like a Swiss arrow. I put my string on after fletching with 4 feathers. And put a leather patch on it. So it can be used as a staff sling too. I place patch between thumb and pointer finger holding the javelin. At first I was just using a knot in the string, but tore my hand up from a few throws. You need to use body not just arm to throw it.
We used to make small arrow sized versions of these as kids in the 1970’s [we called them flight arrows... don’t ask me why ?] They worked best with the throwing string and we could send them further than when using our homemade bows, usually from one side of a large sports field to the other. [we would loop the string into the nock of the arrow which was quick and easy to fit]
in multiple parts of europe they were used with foot bows (large bow and arrow bows that were fired from the reclined position, feet in the bow stirrups). This was a roman technology so would have been widely known. Arrows were typically the height of a man (60 to 70 inches). Wide thin heads were designed to create maximum blood loss by slicing. Also, rather than a throwing string, which as you say, is rather fiddly, a throwing stick would be fast and easy to use and only requires the dart to have a small detent in the end of the bolt. A throwing stick was well known technology and would have been easy to outfit near novices to throw darts and additional 30 of 40 meters, (maybe from behind a temporary wooden wall). A foot bow on the other hand could increase distance, including "flat" distance even beyond a throwing stick. Flat distance is important in this regard; the weapon end of this projectile was considerably wider, thinner and sharper that bodkins and other types of archery points. They were made to slice. A high trajectory would bring the dart down on a single person whereas a flatter trajectory could conceivable injure several opponents per shot. This would seem to point to use with bows or even scorpion like machines and large crossbows. People were pretty clever back then and just because the artists didn't include these items doesn't mean they were not in use as such. How many artists today know the particular ins and outs of the multiple types of weaponry used by soldiers? They are two completely different crowds and the artists can be forgiven for not getting every detail perfect. Their audience was even less informed so it is unlikely that omissions of this type would even register. Artists would not have attended the battles and would have only worked from oral reportage. The history of warfare is the history of getting farther away from the people you are trying to kill in order to maintain your own safety. Throwing a giant arrow by hand only brings you closer. Using a throwing stick or a foot bow, or even a larger scale crossbow, all known technologies at the time, would have made considerably more sense.
Would you not carry one into battle with the string, and launch it at the enemy who is 30 M away. Then grab one of the two or three others you carry to throw without the string as the enemy closes to 20 M?
I am struggling with the head of this thing. It is too big to expect to get through any kind of armour, linen padding etc. Is it possible that this was used against the mounted enemy to bring down the horses?
In the American Civil War, one close combat weapon was the pike. Nothing like the Medieval Pike a long pole with a heavy head, they were about the length of your war darts with a heftier shaft and a knife like, firmly attached head. they were not intended for throwing. By my understanding, they were used a lot like you describe the spear, faster and more maneuverable than a rifle with bayonet (a lot cheaper too.) Did Medieval weapons find a similar form?
You have several examples of very unusual shields in those paintings. Rather than flat or a simple curve, they appear to be much deeper with one example having a complex recurve shape. Are there any examples of these unusual shapes in museums? Are they real or assumed to be fanciful artist's creations?
How sturdy are the shafts? I figure regular javelins might be preferable because they can essentially become backup short spears in melee, these seem too thin and flimsy for that
If a longbow cannot penetrate breastplate, I would assume this wouldn't either. Would this be used for unarmored or lightly armored opponents? And is the tip flared so that it won't get stuck in anything like a wooden shield? I heard the roman throwing spears used long narrow tips on purpose so that they'd bend on impact and make it impossible to hurl them back. A bent spear in your shield would also virtually render it useless. Why were the medieval soldiers not concerned with this?
I vaguely remember reading about troops in Alexander's army using javelims with leather strings tied in the middle, cant remember their name though, i guess if they are tied beforehand and fixed to the spear then alot of the hassle is gone. What would the penetration of these that you made would be at 20 meters though?, Do you think it would go through a Gambeson? Thanks for the video. Also, would throwing them from horseback make them reach much farther?, seems like a cheaper idea than training horse archers for skirmishing.
I suspect the broad heads like you've created would have been used for hunting, in order to create large bleeding wounds in game. Thinner more need point heads would be used in battle. The artists just painted them this way because they were most likely not familiar with the differences, having only seen the hunting versions outside of a battlefield. Not to mention it adds a bit of flare.
Hey Todd great video!, Hate to be that guy but do you think you could put a few details about the shaft/handle specifications and the diameter? I would very much like to craft one of these and I've pretty much got everything else to build it with except the shaft length and width.
So you would set up your first one with a string before you engage. When closing with the enemy you would loose the first one at 30 meters. Continue closing. Loose a second at 15 to 20 meters then you would be pulling something to use at close range. Lol
@tod todeschini Are the heads based on an archaeological find, or are they an interpretation from artistic depiction? They seem particularly broad, and I wonder at how well they would penetrate targets.
The broadheads are so wide that I'm not sure they would penetrate most shields. There are many spear design which use a radical widening of the head to prevent over-penetration. I imagine these dart heads might cause a lot of damage against naked flesh, but without demonstration to the contrary I can't help but doubt their ability to penetrate anything substantially more resistant.
Fascinating. A few off the cuff thoughts. On level ground, it doesn’t look like it would do much damage. But thrown from above (castle ramparts, ship’s rigging, angels etc) it could be nasty. On period drawings they had little comprehension of scale, often simply showing the important items larger. So I wonder if they were simply using arrows as makeshift weapons. The ones stuck head first into the ground just look like arrows to me, hard to draw them any smaller. Also, as a weapon they had a massive drawback, any ones stuck in the ground could simply be picked up and thrown back. The Romans figured out a way to prevent this. Odd that medieval weapons makers didn’t. I just don’t see it as a weapon. I think it’s just our interpretation of old drawings.
she's transferring all of the kinetic motion of the run onto the weight of her planted back foot which then courses up through the rotation of the hips and into her arm as it whips forward. The biomechanics of javelin throwing is amazing. Imagine stomping on the ground vs running/hopping and then crashing your foot on the ground, but instead of wasting all that energy into hurting your foot you use it to power the spear
I think the fletching makes sense even for a skilled thrower. Even a skilled person can fumble when they get a bit too excited and think they're about to die.
Maybe it would work for the first throw as you would have the time to fit the string giving an initial distance advantage then reverting to normal throwing.
Having thrown a few spears of bamboo at an old pizza tray until i could hit it everytime at 20m or so, over the length of a tennis court & a bit, i have always wondered at the holding position for javelins, which is sensible for balance. If i held the spear of bamboo, unfletched, by the end, as if it was snicked into a woomera, i found both range and accuracy increased, of course this works with lighter spears, pilums no no no, holding it this way is very awkward at first and could not be done for long, generally it was best done in one motion, lift, finger to the end as it was palmed, rotate wobble the spear so it did not droop, and push the arm through until one releases the spear. I have thrown under instruction central Australian woomera and spears made from a vine, heated straighten in a vice called teeth and jaws, and the woomera makes it so much easier, same motions (atlatl darts for North American are a bit smaller) I was chosen as a city boy expected to fail but they did not know i had been practicing with bamboo and pizza trays. The first time with the millenia old woomera design I just pushed through the motion, down the track with the minimum energy required, it went 20m with no effort at all. I was proud of my line. Whenever I pick up a good length of dowl now I throw it hand- woomera style and am pleased 30 years later i can still plonk hard into my chosen target at 20-30 meters. The traditional javelin style makes no sense to me. But with an option of a string? Total sense.
I love how its becoming apparent that a ton of weapons we previously thought of as being highly stylized in artwork are turning out to be literal interpretations. Scythian bows spring to mind. Prior historians though the very dramatic, almost eccentrically curved depictions in artwork were simply heavily stylized artistic representations. Then a few digs of scythian burial mounds show that, nope, actually they really were that shape, and were actually highly effective at giving a horseman a lot of power for a short, highly manueverable draw in the saddle.
I have seen drawings or paintings of individuals holding or throwing "giant arrows" and always just assumed it was a sort of metaphor that was easier to draw or paint than somebody shooting a bow. Had no idea until I saw this video that it was a literal interpretation. Very interesting!
In the manuscripts describing the battles of the Swiss (roughly 14th to 16th century) I saw often them mentioning a weapon they called a "Schiffelin", I couldn't really make much of that word untill it dawned to me that it must be my ancestors mutilation of the term "javelin". My impression from the old texts is that they were very much brought to the battlefield as the individual choice of a warrior, in other words by someone who was proficient in the use of this weapon, confident that they would be able to make good enough deadly use of it that it was worthwile the effort of carrying them around untill the actual place of battle was reached. The Swiss typically would open a hostile encounter by throwing anything they could get their hands on, from rocks picked of the ground to empty bottles at the enemy. I guess that would also be the moment when the "Schiffelins" as precise and deadly missile weapons were brought into play, capable of doing substantially bigger harm than an empty beer boottle.
You forgot about the kitchen sink...
When doing research on the Lithuanian military I reached out to the Nation Museum of Lithuania and one of their historians told me that Lithuanians did actually use a form of atlatyl/spear throwing stick called an "ietisvadae" (spelled from memory). With which they launched similar javelins with sufficient force to be useful against padded, leather, linen, and chain armor at closer ranges. The historian insisted these weapons were mentioned in the sources, but I have not seen them myself. Still, it might be worth looking into.
Leather armor, though? My understanding is that's incredibly rare.
@@TemenosL Rare but not nonexistent. And also very very different from what's usually seen in media
@@TemenosL depends on the form and period. In the middle ages we see cuirboille (sp.) here and there, usually as supplementary limb armor, we see leather lamellar pretty widespread through time and geography, we see the top layer of some layered linen armors as leather or hide sometimes, and we see the leather Spolas among the greeks (the Sagas reference a reindeer hide armor as well). So leather armor is around, the problem is just people have pretty bad misunderstandings about it... and we have alot of gaps in our knowledge which people really don't like to accept and deal with.
It's either *ietisvaidis* (m.) or *ietisvaidė* (f.)
@@TemenosL Maybe leather lamellar. It shows up in art in rus successor countries.
My Grandad showed me how to make similar to these when I was a little kid, except he called them french arrows. We used to nick his bean pole garden canes, make some plastic flights from pop bottles and stick a blunted off nail for a point, and use a boot lace to fire them. We could chuck them a fair way an all. Great fun.
RedUK Cool story!
They seem to be known by many names according to Wikipedia. Swiss, Dutch, Scotch, Yorkshire and Gypsy Arrows are the names they mention. No mention of time-frame of use and in what contexts. Most of what I've seen seems to imply them mostly being thrown for fun much like RedUK describes or occasionally in survival situations.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_arrow
My grandad didnt think so when half his bean poles went missing, and also within the fortnight almost every kid I knew was making them. The local park was like something out of Zulu, eventually the police got involved because of the complaints about large numbers of spear chucking 11 year olds down the rec, lol.
RedUK. When I was a lad growing up in the 1950s, we called them Dutch arrows. They were usually made out of long bamboo canes with cardboard flights. A notch was cut in the cane about 6 inches from the flights for the knotted cord something to grip onto.
Just to add to the sentiment of some of the responses, I would say that when you set up for your first volley at the approaching enemy you probably have it slung with the string giving it its longest range distance and you're probably behind paveses or Shields... Subsequent volleys would be at a closer range and in Rapid succession and you wouldn't use the string you would just toss and pray...
@@tods_workshop Right at the start of a charge, throw a dart with the string, Mid charge throw a dart without, draw melee weapon as you close the last bit of distance. Or constantly moving in and out of cover/range of the enemy throwing a few and then breaking contact. Think less static fight and more skirmishing tactics. Greek Peltasts fought much the same way.
Awesome, it's not often I come across a medieval weapon I didn'y know about.
Almus Quotch
Actually, its a much older weapon. Often use together with an atlatl. Its pre- bow and arrow, so we are talking thousands of years old.
Most people today think of natives in south america when they think of an atlatl, but its used all over the wourld.
Me, I didnt know they used in the dark age, but I knew we used it in pre historical ages. Stoneage, bronzeage etc.
@@svent1000 that is why it is called "a dark age" ... most of its history got
lost.
We call it as Dark age because people kneel down to high powers... God, lords, land lords, no real dignity as humans. also don't have the courage to speak facts, or they burn you as a witch. Because of these, there were no real inventions in entire dark age. (unlike Rome's time)
Yeah I have a feeling that's more a reflection on how little research you do, this is an extremely common weapon used throughout human history by countless groups of people who were geographically isolated from each other. Oh btw since this blew your mind you should look up this thing called a spear, it's like a dart but thicker and you can use it in melee too!
@@withastickangrywhiteman2822 this is deeply confused, historically
Why don't we hear about these more?!?
because I think they're generally described as javelin
Well according to English when describing Irish warfare they were consider more of a nuisance against cavalry but not very effective. They don't have the weight to go through armor or weigh down shields like a true javelin and they don't have the range or speed that a bow or crossbow can generate. They are more used for light armored skirmishes and naval warfare rather than full on battles.
I posit that regardless of weight, getting a 5 foot stick stuck in your shield with little hope of pulling it out is just as good as weighing it down.
The Spanish Almogavars used those weapons and they had a fearsome reputation as fast, hard-hitting light infantry.
used to make what we called "dutch arrows " atle atle as a kid , using a 1-1.5cm garden cane ( bamboo the flex of the bamboo adds power if thrown right ) 3- 4 feet long ,with card or duck tape fletchings and a 4 inch nail with some lead tape to balance it at the tip . with a throwing string .and as a skinny 11 year old i could put one through a car door or lodge 2-3 inches of the tip into a pine scaffold plank that's about the same as a 40-50lb bow ,and with practice nearly as accurate ...some 40 years later every now and then i think about making one using modern materials or even just better construction and man sized .. take it from me you don't want to be on the receiving end of one they are easily as valid a weapon as a bow and arrows and use less materials and skills to construct... while like you say they dont have the range of a bow the projectile has way more mass than an arrow or bolt .. it would be nice if someone could test the impacts of both to compare .. but like you say superseded by the more modern bow and xbow ...
We used to make these in the mid seventies as kids. Those skinny, green garden canes with card flights. Sharpened & fire hardened & often with a largish nut screwed on the end. We used the notch & length of string with a knot at one end to launch them. We called them "Dutch arrows". This was in Paignton, Devon.
We could get huge ranges once you'd got the "atl-atl" knack. Great fun & accurate too once you got your eye in.
Yup we nearly killed eachother with Dutch arrows also in kent
@@adders45 I was in Paignton, Devon back then. It must've been a countrywide thing! 😆
The Carthaginians used a light throwing spear from horseback. A leather thong was used and it was wound around the shaft to give it a spin for accuracy and range.
"wound around the shaft to give it a spin for accuracy and range." Was going to mention that as Tod didn't. I expected to see the javelin spinning in flight
Lara makes it look so easy.
I suspect there would be a lot of situation where reserve troops were standing a short distance behind a shield or pike line. An extra few yards would be helpful for them, and they'd have time to reset. I think this would be true any time you're behind some kind of defensive formation or in a siege as well. Some years ago someone on Swordforum shared statistics on casualties by weapon type in different eras. I think the point being made in the forum was that casualty source usually went mechanical projectile, polearm, hand-thrown projectile, and that swords were often a distant fourth. Detailed historical sources are somewhat limited in value as they are often estimates, and won't necessarily distinguish between, say, mechanical-thrown and hand-thrown rocks, or between javelins, pikes and ballista-type projectiles.
We used to make them as kids and that was early 1960s, probably our dad showed us. Usually out of cane, old playing cards for flights and bit of lead for weight at the front. Obviously they were lighter and the distance we got them was amazing but we enjoyed lobbing them as high as possible and watching them come, pretty well, straight down. Suppose it would be classed as to dangerous today but I don't recall anyone getting hurt.
Heck, probably the lead was the most dangerous bit
Getting the chills from that picture at 1:50.
I was just online last night looking for resources on Darts/ javelins... trying to get more familiar with Irish skirmishers - Ancient/ early middle ages- "Kerns" all were described as using these ! thanks for the upload
Couple of things: I was shown a south american throwing dart once. About 3ft long, flat cross-section, hardened wooden tip. Instead of fletching, it had a cross of wood (carved in) that had thread woven across it to make a flat diamond. This looked like it would not work - however, we tried it across the room, maybe 15ft. Not only was it easy to throw straight and true, it penetrated a loosely propped sheet of 1/4" ply. Second thing; modern javelins fly true due to balancing and aerodynamic shape. It would be easier to make a straight shaft, stick a point on then some feathers than to mass produce well balanced hafts with a point.
The Irish Kern used leather cord to throw them as can clearly be seen in a painting from 1527
Do you know the name of the painting?
Funny, I just today looked at some pictures from Dürer (was looking for the Messer and Dagger work) and saw his drawing of Irish soldiers and they had such a throwing dart. Made me wonder what that is... And now I stumbled over your video. Very nice and informative, thanks!
Good to see you branching out a bit I found this very interesting my thanks.
Very cool bit of new knowledge with awesome demonstrations, thanks!
While completely reasonable that they wouldn't use a string either at all or maybe some of the time. If they did it prolly would have been for the first initial shot as to get the extra range on advancing troops.
My assumption is the same as yours, use a string thrown dart in the first instance when you have time to attach it prior to engagement and then throw the rest freehand as it were.
I was going to make the same point, use it for the first shot, the shots after you really don't need it. The enemy will definitely have advanced the 8 meters
@@muesliman100 Unless the enemy are defending which may or may not be more often than not?
@@Jafmanz in that case it could also help your advance to throw one dart from further away so that you're most likely ready to throw another one after your side has advanced the distance difference
What's stopping them from pre-preparing throwing strings on the darts before battle, or in a back line?
I admit, I first expected a plumbata rather than a fletched javelin. A bit of smaller, perhaps 1 feet plus long. Regardless, this is very interesting! Didn't know they were used in naval warfare and all that.
An Atlatl would make more sense in the case of the Throwing String idea. It used the same idea of lengthening the throw, and you don't fumble it nearly as easily. I wish there were videos of that. Otherwise, this is a great look at a really cool weapon, and I love Tod's Workshop.
When i was a young lad one of my friends dad showed us how to make throwing darts from bamboo cane.. playing cards.and a couple of heavy nails..and a piece of string... by the end of the summer we could throw them the length of the football field and be very accurate... ( in the goalposts)
Quite a sight 10/12 lads with our arrows.... i was 9 then... im 57 now
Ours were two and a half too three feet long...
Those look awesome!! And so dangerous at the same time.
@Weedus I love Plumbata for one of the main disadvantages of these Javelins: Ammo Capacity. How many of those do you think you can carry with a sword, and shield? Okay, now throw in a longarm like a halberd, or Doppelhander. It just might be a Halberd, OR a 1 shot javelin, maybe 2. (I personally prefer a good Warhammer) The Romans could carry a bunch of Plumbata in leather loops, tacked into the backs of their Skuta. (Round Tower Shields.) They may not be as effective, but compare that with 8 rounds of .45, or 20 rounds of Para Bellum...
Something that games have ruined for the historically minded (That includes craftsmen, and re-enactors) is the Magic Backpack. Or character sheet, it's easy to write down [...And 3 javelins.] When the players have never carried a shield, for any length of time, let alone with anything else. Tried to draw a sword, with a shield on their arm, let's say after throwing a Javelin. With a shield strapped onto their arm, in a mass full of guys with shields, and spears, trying to draw their swords while the enemy is charging through the field of Pilum sticking out of the ground. So, it's really a choice, for the commander, what he wants his troops to carry: Maybe 2 shots of Pilum (Of different weights/ranges) or potentially maybe 5 volleys of Plumbata, for each soldier.
We don't know why the Romans had a short sword, when they were arguably the only civilization with good enough steel to issue ALL of their soldiers with longer swords, but that's my theory: Their shields, and the Pilum. The sword is always a sidearm, to be drawn when the ranks break up into a melee. However, if you want to organize volleys of javelins, under the protection of tower shields, and still be able to all draw swords at once. (Without breaking up the superior defense of their shield walls, with roofs) A short sword actually makes more sense for Close quarters, in a crush of bodies. For duels, like the Gladiatorial Arena, they actually had longer swords, but I don't believe they needed them in ranks, because of the Way the Romans fought in ranks.
@@Psiberzerker I don't think these would be used by the line infantry, but by the light infantry in skirmishing. We have references going back to at least Alexander of light troops armed with javelins "The peltasts raised from the Agrianes were the elite light infantry of the Macedonian army. They were often used to cover the right flank of the army in battle, being posted to the right of the Companion cavalry, a position of considerable honour. They were almost invariably part of any force on detached duty, especially missions requiring speed of movement.
Peltasts were armed with a number of javelins and a sword, carried a light shield but wore no armour, though they sometimes had helmets; they were adept at skirmishing and were often used to guard the flanks of more heavily equipped infantry. They usually adopted an open order when facing enemy heavy infantry. They could throw their javelins at will at the enemy and, unencumbered by armour or heavy shields, easily evade any counter-charges made by heavily equipped hoplites. They were, however, quite vulnerable to shock-capable cavalry and often operated to particular advantage on broken ground where cavalry was useless and heavy infantry found it difficult to maintain formation"
Loved this video, if you file a nook, similar to an arrow nook, in the fletched end, you can easily and quickly put the looped end of your throwing string/cord or thong over this and run your gripped hand to a point just behind the balance point, insuring that the cord is tight (easy to do if they are stuck in the ground next to you). You can heft the dart a serious distance this way, esp if the looped end is weighted with half an ounce of lead.
I found the same technique doubled the dissidence i could chuck the replica Roman-plumbata I made or could drive my darts throw half inch thick pine planks ... hell that was a good day.
Cool that you show and explain such "niche" weapons. I think they are specially usefull for sieges. Caeser describes "wall javelins" beeing used by the gauls. And the way he describes them suggest that roman readers are also familiar with them. So i guess these might be what he describes and that their tradition dates back into antiquity.
I used to make a variation of this as a kid.. a bunch of us used to make them out of hazel or bamboo. Playing cards as flights and shoe lace to throw them. Very light and about as long as a convention arrow from a bow. The notch for the string was at the rear and it was thrown from the tip. They would go at least 200 feet.
When I was young, we used to make similar things from bamboo garden canes. They were about half the size of the ones you have in the video. We made fletchings from tape or card and the point was usually a nail. We also used a length of knotted string as a propulsion aid. They were bloody lethal but good fun.
Dutch arrows
@@adders45 That's the kiddies.
Did Lara have a go using the throwing string?
We used to call these french arrows back in the day...
on the subject of the string , when i made atlatl throwers u used a Y piece of antler as a front rest and another point at the back to engage the knock , however 2 x Y antlers and a point at the knock could be super fast to load , and as secure as a crossbow bolt with just one fingers pressure.
Did Laura have any comments about the weight of a small javelin compared to a modern throwing javelin as for aerodynamics?
javeline was my sport, nj state champ back in 1990, you never forget your technic ..after run up, 45,90,45, throw, wow these are very short..
Would be a deadly weapon cast from the battlements of a besieged castle .
Yes deadly and very frustrating and annoying for the enemy. Ancient armies were really cruel to each other. But I supposed it was survival by any means atall.
I could see a string possibly being used on one's first throw, likely prepared in some fashion before any combat is taking place, after which you cease the use of the string unless there's a lull in action. You could also perhaps wrap them prior to engagement, and stick them on with some wax or something to keep them from coming undone before use.
I made a few of these things when I was 10 - 13 years old from bamboo about 80cm long and with card vanes. Obviously not weaponised like that one. Even thrown by a child using a string it'll go a long way. With a spiked tip,such as a nail attached to the end it'd be a dangerous weapon with quite some reach. With practice attaching the launching string isn't difficult or particularly fiddly. And with a "throwing arrow" (which is what I called it) which is about half your total arm span long you can hold it near the tip when you throw.
Yeah we used to make similar but smaller versions we called "french arrows" when we were kids, they also had a small length of string attached to the weighted end which helped gain distance in the throw
@Paul Osc Slots We used to throw them at each other :) usually with a dart ( the sport darts you throw at a board ) as the nose weight, the 80's were so much fun.
I used to do something very like this back in the middle 1950's, a length of dowel with a small ring cut near the end by the flights which we used playing cards folded in slots, with a knotted string to throw, never put heads on ( thank the lord ) but the went great distances.
String and 1/4 to 1/2 rotation; also good for very light cavalry .
It is amazing how much more effective an atlatl is when compared to these as they are so similar.
I've used both and the string sling is better. It gives the same amount of range but the string can put spin on the dart that allows it to fly more straight. Also the string is very easy to carry and to make as its just a strip of leather or twine.
Gallowglass I can throw a similar weighted, even slightly heavier, dart almost 100 yards with an atlatl. Something must have been wrong with your atlatl technique.
Or something is wrong with your string sling technique.
Can you throw a 400 gram dart 80+ yards with a sling?
Atlatl darts are also known to out penetrate hunting weight bows.Though I have found heavy darts penetrate about twice as far as an 80 longbow into dense foam targets. I highly doubt these hand/sling thrown darts come close to that level of penetration.
We used to make them as kids & called them French arrows they went a good distance.however we held them and threw them differently held them by the point with the fletch pointing away got more whip with the string.
Interesting video. We made throwing darts as kids in the 1970s using green garden canes and cereal box card for the flights. We also used a throwing string and to this day I have absolutely no idea where the idea came from. Just another weapon in our arsenal along with peg guns and catapults!
We need a ballistics gel test with one of these! I want to know how viable one of these is for hunting
@Oliver hunters have used throwing spears... for many millenia what? Slings too and slings make a sharp whipping sound when spun so I imagine they're all pretty devastating if you know what you're doing.
@Oliver no? Look at documented indigenous tribes in Africa such as the Maasai they regularly hunt with thrown spears while on foot. There’s footage of them on TH-cam of how they approach a hunt
@Oliver sources?
Atlatles (tried my best) had a little divot on the back of the shaft where a sort of hook or horn would attach right? Perhaps they (throwing darts) had a notch like you’d see on the back of arrows to latch a looped knot onto, it would have been much easier to ready and faster to fire more than looping the knot on itself around the shaft, is there any evidence showing such notches in the darts to be found?
3:25 Ye olde Jack Skellington with spooky throwy stick
Watching the video from Shadiversity. It's quite eye opening seeing the two of you throw, and you are talking about a ranged weapon, 20 to 30 meters is so damn close! today we talk about ranged weapons and your enemy is so far away you can't see the enemy. With these weapons you are either about to get engaged in brutal melee combat in seconds unless you are in an elevated position or there are your own melee warriors between you and your enemy.
Coastal Gaming I think these were used in skirmishing light infantry (Slingers, Javelin Men, Dart Throwers, Etc) screen in front of the line infantry. They'd pull back through the later and reform behind them
Looked this up after seeing Shad's shout out to you for the War Dart/Fletched Javelin. 👍
Very interesting, though I wish you would have shown some target firing and possibly penetration testing as well (but I get it if that's not your thing). Just wanted to mention, I've seen an alternative to your throwing string which I actually found easier to use (but still a bit fiddly and it can take a while to "load") -- just grab a leather thong and tie a loop in one end. Wrap it around the spear in a screw-thread pattern with the loose end underneath a wrap. Now when you throw, the leather adds a kind of rifling to the projectile. Apparently it was used by some native American tribes for throwing arrows if their bows were inaccessible or unusable and made a great peacetime sport. The man from whom I heard about this (in the Primitive Technology article series) described a 300ft arrow throw using this method.
We found that a spiral wind of the string caused more drag at release & often just messed up the throw.
A slight bend on the flights would impart a much more efficient spin stabilisation.
This weapon would make most sense while standing above your enemy, this way you do get a slight range boost and gravity can add some extra speed with which the damage increases as well. Aside from that, this weapon may have been used on the battlefield as additional weapon, not as main weapon. This because you throw one or two before you charge in.
Another usage may be with pikemen or other units with long pointy weapons in front, then the war dart units and then then bowmen. It would make more sense in that perspective. You can throw your war dart over the men in front of you while they protect you while the bowmen can shoot over you and still hit their ranges. Once you are out of war darts, you pick up your main melee weapon (which is likely a sword or a short variant on that).
I would think it would be used against guys with two handed weapons such as pikes. Most likely only the rich would have metal armor which would leave some pike men vulnerable. If both sides had pikes and one side had war darts sticking in them, I image that the other side would be able to have a better advantage. Even if the other side didn't have pikes the first side would no longer have that good of a reach advantage.
Having used these extensively when i was younger, shorten the spear in half or a third so it starts to resemble a dart and tie the end of the string around a small stone, then check your distance when throwing.
If you’re used to putting on a string it’s incredibly fast and you can do it at the same time as you’re raising the spear. The same can be said for distance too, if you hold the spear and string just beneath the head, making a longer string, you get a much greater distance.
People were using sticks like throwing strings. But I don't know if they were using it in the medieval ages. This is the first time I hear about this weapon in the medieval context.
True maybe not in a front line charge but as a ambush weapon or from a wall or defended posituin some where where you have the time to set it up they would work a treat.
Read about these in old Irish annals and English descriptions, used by Irish Kerne who carried 3 for skirmishing, string already attached to each, English described as very accurate with good range, interesting that English writers described the string as wrapped 3 times around shaft to cause a spin.
Tod's Workshop just seen it, thanks buddy keep up the good work, very interesting!
Hello, Tod. In antiquity the amentum was partly wound, but that was done with regular javelins, would it have an adverse effect on these fletched ones?
Natural feathers are aerofoil in profile, so impart spin. If the sttring/thong was wound in the wrong direction the two would be in conflict, losing efficiency, when thrown. Though with such a heavy shaft & head I wonder what effect, if any, the spin-force could have over such short distances, compared with feathers on much lighter arrowshafts & heads.
Is throwing string something like atlatl?
Once you mentioned the throwing string, another variation using a stick-form, the atlatl, came to mind. While it doesn't seem to appear in any of the manuscripts you pictured in the video, it would eliminate the fiddling about with the string, provide a quick "loading" mechanism, and improve velocity and distance, and perhaps accuracy. What are your thoughts on that? Would love to see you explore the feasibility in another video. :) Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I really enjoy watching your videos.
Mike Bronner The advantage to the string is that if used properly, its spins the weapon, gyroscopically stabilizing it and making it more accurate
I think the idea is that you throw them like a stick (you hold them near the fletching and swing the pointy end around as hard as possible) you can throw much harder that way and it wil stabilize itself in the air to always land point first.
interesting point about the throwing string. But I would like to point out that medieval people probably used knots all the time so they might have been more proficient at it.
Are these the same ones thrown by light cavalry from the Iberian Peninsula?
Unlikely, greens didn't have feathers at the back and such arrowheads, what they used is very similar to an Olympic javelin.
This weapon needs more recognition in pop culture.
There is also the possibility that they used the string but only once. Or used it only from encamped or elevated positions.
Think of an RPK light machine gun. They use a 75rd drum magazine. Carrying around many drum magazines makes sense except that you can fit 3 standard 30 round magazines into the same space. A drum only makes sense for an initial engagement, an encamped (defending engagement), or a sustained supressive fire. Most soldiers therefore only carry 1 drum magazine and the rest are standard 30 round magazines. They discard the drum after it is used up.
If you are preparing for an engagement, you could easily have the string engaged for the first throw and discard it for subsequent throws as they have closed in the 10 or 20 meters advantage you initially had.
An opponent can close 30 meters fast, as can the thrower. In keeping with the skirmisher idea this seems like a distraction weapon to give the thrower a moment to close or to run. Could it produce casualties on armored opponents using shields not likely but I suspect it could produce casualties if thrown at archers, it may also throw off their aim.
Or also akin to the Roman Pilum.
If you have two darts, you could throw the first at 30 m range, having prepared the string while approaching, then throw the second when you’re 10 m closer. That way you get the extra range a string offers, and don’t have to fumble with it while your enemy is rushing you. I agree that you wouldn’t want to fiddle with something like that any time your enemy is as close as 20 m; they could probably run over and run you through in the time it would take. But I can see a case for the string nonetheless.
You could put a short length of string with a loop on it, or just a long loop onto a short stick and use that method, the string/loop and stick should be about half the length of the javelin.
There are this spear-throwers / propulsors that were popular in the stone age. they are basically just a stick that's used as a lever to propell the spear: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower
Does anyone know of something similar being used in the Middle Ages? I've seen them being used and they were quite impresive. They look like a good weapon for light skirmishers in the early middle ages or ancient times.
GerackSerack I have seen some depictions of Medieval Atlatl style clubs. Though tended not to be as popular as just throwing them for warfare. (Throwing was slightly faster it seems.)
... or woomera in my part of the world.
That slow-motion shot of Lara gave me chills, can easily imagine a warrior hurling it down field in a skirmish.
Just a comment on the throwing string, some times adding a couple of wraps around the shaft can give the projectile greater oomph.
Additionally, the strings could have pre-secured to the weapon ahead of time, either fixed with a small amount of pitch or wax, or possibly even tied to the shaft itself, more similar to an ankyle.
And one more thought, my understanding is that the string was longer, and that often the projectile was held not near the center of balance, but at the head, where the string terminated.
The amentum string should be attached to javelin and at least one wrap for spin more for longer distances. Like a Swiss arrow. I put my string on after fletching with 4 feathers. And put a leather patch on it. So it can be used as a staff sling too. I place patch between thumb and pointer finger holding the javelin. At first I was just using a knot in the string, but tore my hand up from a few throws. You need to use body not just arm to throw it.
We used to make small arrow sized versions of these as kids in the 1970’s [we called them flight arrows... don’t ask me why ?]
They worked best with the throwing string and we could send them further than when using our homemade bows, usually from one side of a large sports field to the other.
[we would loop the string into the nock of the arrow which was quick and easy to fit]
in multiple parts of europe they were used with foot bows (large bow and arrow bows that were fired from the reclined position, feet in the bow stirrups). This was a roman technology so would have been widely known. Arrows were typically the height of a man (60 to 70 inches). Wide thin heads were designed to create maximum blood loss by slicing. Also, rather than a throwing string, which as you say, is rather fiddly, a throwing stick would be fast and easy to use and only requires the dart to have a small detent in the end of the bolt. A throwing stick was well known technology and would have been easy to outfit near novices to throw darts and additional 30 of 40 meters, (maybe from behind a temporary wooden wall). A foot bow on the other hand could increase distance, including "flat" distance even beyond a throwing stick. Flat distance is important in this regard; the weapon end of this projectile was considerably wider, thinner and sharper that bodkins and other types of archery points. They were made to slice. A high trajectory would bring the dart down on a single person whereas a flatter trajectory could conceivable injure several opponents per shot. This would seem to point to use with bows or even scorpion like machines and large crossbows.
People were pretty clever back then and just because the artists didn't include these items doesn't mean they were not in use as such. How many artists today know the particular ins and outs of the multiple types of weaponry used by soldiers? They are two completely different crowds and the artists can be forgiven for not getting every detail perfect. Their audience was even less informed so it is unlikely that omissions of this type would even register. Artists would not have attended the battles and would have only worked from oral reportage. The history of warfare is the history of getting farther away from the people you are trying to kill in order to maintain your own safety. Throwing a giant arrow by hand only brings you closer. Using a throwing stick or a foot bow, or even a larger scale crossbow, all known technologies at the time, would have made considerably more sense.
would a stiff atlatl type lever be any easier or quicker to use than the string?
Would you not carry one into battle with the string, and launch it at the enemy who is 30 M away. Then grab one of the two or three others you carry to throw without the string as the enemy closes to 20 M?
I am struggling with the head of this thing.
It is too big to expect to get through any kind of armour, linen padding etc.
Is it possible that this was used against the mounted enemy to bring down the horses?
In the American Civil War, one close combat weapon was the pike. Nothing like the Medieval Pike a long pole with a heavy head, they were about the length of your war darts with a heftier shaft and a knife like, firmly attached head. they were not intended for throwing. By my understanding, they were used a lot like you describe the spear, faster and more maneuverable than a rifle with bayonet (a lot cheaper too.) Did Medieval weapons find a similar form?
You have several examples of very unusual shields in those paintings. Rather than flat or a simple curve, they appear to be much deeper with one example having a complex recurve shape. Are there any examples of these unusual shapes in museums? Are they real or assumed to be fanciful artist's creations?
What kind of feathers did you use for the fletching?
We had yard darts the ones that are on the manuscripts look longer by more than a fort
How sturdy are the shafts? I figure regular javelins might be preferable because they can essentially become backup short spears in melee, these seem too thin and flimsy for that
If a longbow cannot penetrate breastplate, I would assume this wouldn't either. Would this be used for unarmored or lightly armored opponents? And is the tip flared so that it won't get stuck in anything like a wooden shield? I heard the roman throwing spears used long narrow tips on purpose so that they'd bend on impact and make it impossible to hurl them back. A bent spear in your shield would also virtually render it useless. Why were the medieval soldiers not concerned with this?
interesting to see accuracy of them
When I was a child we used to make these, and use a knotted string to accelerate them the full length of a football pitch.
Works a bit like an atlatl
I vaguely remember reading about troops in Alexander's army using javelims with leather strings tied in the middle, cant remember their name though, i guess if they are tied beforehand and fixed to the spear then alot of the hassle is gone. What would the penetration of these that you made would be at 20 meters though?, Do you think it would go through a Gambeson?
Thanks for the video.
Also, would throwing them from horseback make them reach much farther?, seems like a cheaper idea than training horse archers for skirmishing.
I suspect the broad heads like you've created would have been used for hunting, in order to create large bleeding wounds in game. Thinner more need point heads would be used in battle. The artists just painted them this way because they were most likely not familiar with the differences, having only seen the hunting versions outside of a battlefield. Not to mention it adds a bit of flare.
Ancient Greek javelin men were called peltasts and were used as light infantry
Hey Todd great video!, Hate to be that guy but do you think you could put a few details about the shaft/handle specifications and the diameter?
I would very much like to craft one of these and I've pretty much got everything else to build it with except the shaft length and width.
This is pretty much unrelated to this video, but why were the mechanisms used in Ballistas never used in smaller crossbows?
So you would set up your first one with a string before you engage. When closing with the enemy you would loose the first one at 30 meters. Continue closing. Loose a second at 15 to 20 meters then you would be pulling something to use at close range. Lol
We need a comparison video between a Roman pilum and a fletched javelin.
@tod todeschini
Are the heads based on an archaeological find, or are they an interpretation from artistic depiction? They seem particularly broad, and I wonder at how well they would penetrate targets.
maybe they're set up to work like pilum, and get lodged in shields with little hope of pulling them out?
The broadheads are so wide that I'm not sure they would penetrate most shields. There are many spear design which use a radical widening of the head to prevent over-penetration. I imagine these dart heads might cause a lot of damage against naked flesh, but without demonstration to the contrary I can't help but doubt their ability to penetrate anything substantially more resistant.
Thanks for clarifying those points.
Fascinating. A few off the cuff thoughts. On level ground, it doesn’t look like it would do much damage. But thrown from above (castle ramparts, ship’s rigging, angels etc) it could be nasty. On period drawings they had little comprehension of scale, often simply showing the important items larger. So I wonder if they were simply using arrows as makeshift weapons. The ones stuck head first into the ground just look like arrows to me, hard to draw them any smaller. Also, as a weapon they had a massive drawback, any ones stuck in the ground could simply be picked up and thrown back. The Romans figured out a way to prevent this. Odd that medieval weapons makers didn’t. I just don’t see it as a weapon. I think it’s just our interpretation of old drawings.
Were these known in Viking Age Ireland or Scotland?
well done, Todd. thank you
Does it have a bonus damage against archers?
Can you do a video making throwing straps?
Is it possible they shoot it from a giant crosbow or scorpion siege machines?
I noticed in the slow mo clip that when Laura takes a run up , she actually stops before throwing. So what advantage is there to a run up ?
she's transferring all of the kinetic motion of the run onto the weight of her planted back foot which then courses up through the rotation of the hips and into her arm as it whips forward. The biomechanics of javelin throwing is amazing. Imagine stomping on the ground vs running/hopping and then crashing your foot on the ground, but instead of wasting all that energy into hurting your foot you use it to power the spear
How is possible to buy or manufact the head of the javelin? I would love to try it out
from the pictures it looks kind of like they threw them from a grip pretty close to the back, would fletchings help with that?
My dad and I used to make these when I was a kid in the 80's 😀
I think the fletching makes sense even for a skilled thrower. Even a skilled person can fumble when they get a bit too excited and think they're about to die.
Maybe it would work for the first throw as you would have the time to fit the string giving an initial distance advantage then reverting to normal throwing.
Having thrown a few spears of bamboo at an old pizza tray until i could hit it everytime at 20m or so, over the length of a tennis court & a bit, i have always wondered at the holding position for javelins, which is sensible for balance. If i held the spear of bamboo, unfletched, by the end, as if it was snicked into a woomera, i found both range and accuracy increased, of course this works with lighter spears, pilums no no no, holding it this way is very awkward at first and could not be done for long, generally it was best done in one motion, lift, finger to the end as it was palmed, rotate wobble the spear so it did not droop, and push the arm through until one releases the spear. I have thrown under instruction central Australian woomera and spears made from a vine, heated straighten in a vice called teeth and jaws, and the woomera makes it so much easier, same motions (atlatl darts for North American are a bit smaller) I was chosen as a city boy expected to fail but they did not know i had been practicing with bamboo and pizza trays. The first time with the millenia old woomera design I just pushed through the motion, down the track with the minimum energy required, it went 20m with no effort at all. I was proud of my line. Whenever I pick up a good length of dowl now I throw it hand- woomera style and am pleased 30 years later i can still plonk hard into my chosen target at 20-30 meters. The traditional javelin style makes no sense to me. But with an option of a string? Total sense.