Call me crazy, but I think Reference Pear may be Bat Critic Man. Think about it, have you ever seen the two of them at the same room at the same time? And Bat Critic Man shows up on the day they use reference kohlrabis not reference pear?
Looking at Gloomhaven I am almost convinced that Reference Pear is Lex Luthor. In my view BCM is closely connected to Shux team thou but there are not enough evidence in this video to tell who he really is...
what about Kingdom Death Monster? where scope creep is basically the selling point among its fans(which I am one of), like when Adam Poots announced that he had scrapped the completed Philosophy system because he thought the double-sided cards that were being used were too "gamey" and not thematic enough, and thus chose to replace them with all with little mini-bookletes complete with story text and randomization tables and/or choices instead.
As an all-in backer who has played a number of times, I have to say - great review. I agree with many of the criticisms. I will say that my personal DC fandom adds a great deal of value for me (I can play a board game as Orphan!) To me it is telling that it has roughly the same rules as Conan, plus maybe a page worth of extra manipulations, and the rulebook is roughly three times as long. Not only that, it is poorly translated with word choice sometimes making rules unnecessarily confusing (there were several times where words in the English version were left in French!) As a former professional manual writer, I can honestly say that this is a 20 page rulebook crammed into 55 pages. It's like a Peter Jackson movie!
i've seen similar poor word choice making rules unnecessarily confusing (BGG for the win) within claustrophobia 1643. i imagine this is just an ongoing theme with Monolith games (i do enjoy claustrophobia 1643, but felt kickstarter was just a "pre-order" for that game)
Since this video, I've spent more time around Monolith games. I like their stuff, but my impression is that they really don't place much importance on localization. It just isn't a priority for them. Conan's manual was so bad that it had to be replaced. Claustrophobia. Batman. Their updates posted for the Kickstarter includes references and charts labeled only in French. I have the feeling that their translator for in-game materials is a native French speaker who knows English, rather than an English speaker that speaks French (which can make a huge difference when it comes to the precision of language.) They've been called on it and criticized for it again and again. It doesn't seem to matter to them, though.
Haha, same here. Naturally I'm going through the whole video but the first 30 seconds was all I needed to see to vindicate my decision to abstain from this nonsense.
I personally see it more like an (expensive) toolkit with Batman miniatures (Which I'll also use for the Batman Miniatures game)... But that isn't for everyone and I totally get why this isn't for many boardgame players who're used to playing straight out of the box. I started from RPGs making my own adventures, monsters, rules, maps, handouts, etc. using HeroQuest Minis. This is pretty much the same with a Batman license. ;-)
@@Cergorach Funny. I started and actually am very involved in minitaure wargames. I am not a stranger to mountains of sprues and minis and thousands of hours of hobbywork and I used to play a lot of pen & paper. In my eyes this game suffers from several issues many other crowndfunded games suffer and all for the same reason. These games are designed around a hierarchy of stretchgoals, often from game designers with little to no experience and without much in the way of playtesting. Calling the game a toolkit, to me, is an excuse for lackluster design, missing direction and a bloat of components, most likely never to be used, due to flawed game design and bad rule editing. Its a crowdfunding Golem.
If I look at a game on KS and it’s anywhere over $60, I don’t care how many minis it comes with, I’m not backing it. I’ll never understand a game costing more than that.
Holy boardgame critics Matt and Quinns. Fantastic review, clearly explained pros and cons, excellent camera clarity and lighting. Great pacing and dialogue. Keep up the good work.
Well,130$ is best value, those expansions from reviews are not that great or ballanced. For 130 it's not bad deal at all. But still after trying it, I am happy with Conan I have, and glad I didn't back it last time(and the fact that I am not fan of art and mini style they went with)
After seeing this review I have cancelled my pledge in Kickstarter. I realized that it's too heavy and just too expensive. Also it won't probably hit my game table very often. I love Batman and DC Universe, but I totally agree with your point that they could have started it with just a few characters and work more on gameplay itself, balance it and just focus more on mechanics, not only on the miniatures. Thanks Shut up& Sit Down for saving me a lot of money, cheers!
@Lassi Kinnunen As in the map board? I am not sure if you are suggesting I print a map or suggesting the Monolith missed their chance to include the information on the the actual board that is the map....To my logical perspective, it should be a functional tool first and a gorgeous piece of art second.
As someone that did buy everything, I am quite dissapointed to hear all of this. Haven't had the chance to play it yet, but hopefully I find the redeeming qualities worthwhile. I had wanted to get Conan, but heard about Batman, and specifically chose this over Conan because of the IP and hope that they would have improved upon the problems with the system the first time around. To hear that Conan was better is definitely saddening. Also, good job recommending the Batman Miniatures Game. I have played that for years and truly love it.
I have both and I find Batman to be the better game, BUT you do have to get past all the issues they bring up here. There are some really great player reference sheets for each character on Board Game Geek that have all the skills listed and explained for the character you are playing in one place. Once you learn the rules and the quirks of the setup illustrations, you won't have to worry about them. But that's going to take some time that could be spend doing other things. The biggest drawback is every mission is on a strict timer and there's no time to just have fun doing superhero stuff! That might be a deal breaker for people.
Hey at least Batman isn't aggressively sexist and horrendously limited in its female character options so that's a plus. For some groups that might even be a deciding factor.
Timmo Warner I would definitely recommend adding 2 rounds in each scenarios, allowing players to have fun attacking and not so much on going for scenarios. Also allows for a few bad dice rolls. I’m also considering allowing the heroes to have their free movement when resting. So many times heroes can get stuck when resting that villains come in and knock them out.
Another outstanding review. I love the world of Batman so much and was thinking about getting this, but this is like the downside of Kickstarter crystallised into a single game. You’ve saved me a huge amount of money, thank you again!
“...like questionable seafood moving through a digestive tract” - may be the best line in any board game review video I’ve watched 😂. No other board game video reviews come close to SUSD in terms of clarity and entertainment. Thank you for continuing to be honest, clear, and concise in these video reviews. I can see how tempting it would be to receive a review copy (I’m assuming) and give it all the praise - especially with how expensive this game is. Just another reason why I’m a fan. I can always rely on good information from you all. Keep up the GREAT work!
I have both Batman and Conan, and I haven't had a chance to play Batman yet but simply reading the rules and looking at components this is exactly what I feared. I love Conan and play it all the time, and I am definitely going to tweak the Batman missions to add either more players or more turns to allow players to have time to do fun and cool things. Hopefully that will be enough to recreate that Conan feel with a Batman flavor.
I'll be honest: I think this game has great potential, less as a competitive tabletop, and more as a ttrpg. The villain should operate less as s player giving it all to win and more as a DM tailoring the experience, and developing a campaign out of it
After seeing how this turned out, I worry about future Kickstarter games that deal with big IPs and offer more and more and more stuff as stretch goals while the core game hasn’t been finalized yet. It seems like a recipe for overindulgence.
I looked into the Batman Miniature Game and I'm not sure the assessment that it would be cheaper holds true. Yes, it has a lower barrier to entry, but, as with most piecemeal miniature systems, expanding your set can quickly reach a price that makes the sheer number of miniatures included in the Chronicles set pretty appealing. I wonder if playing BMG with the B:GCC minis might be the way to get the maximum out of both options(albeit with an initial cost in the $225 range)?
I feel VERY lucky that my wife and I *love* this game. A lot of the main actions within the rulebook can be condensed into about a page, but you’ll likely know the rules off by heart after a few games. One of the best all-in gaming investments I’ve ever made!
"What's fun is completely different from how you win the game." That's exactly how I feel about Legends of Andor but I was never able to express it until now.
Thank you again for your honesty. I had heard these criticisms from enough people that I had zero interest in a game. I was offered a review copy, but I just have the time to invest to learn it and play it enough to do a review. The rulebook, the icons, the lack of player aids. I've been fairly outspoken on things like this myself in the past.
This game has raised 5 Million collectively in first and second campaigns. It is suffering from poor game manual and difficult to learn rule set. It looks like you are maintaining a youtube channel for gaming rules/how to play and tutorials. Are you sure that you are invested in what you are doing? Customer obsession is key to success in there.
I just love the idea of the Batcave being under someone else's house and Bruce Wayne needing to keep coming up with reasons to use this person's basement.
Hi Matt and Quinns, if you were to make Gotham City Chronicles better, where would you start? What's the biggest hurdle holding the game back? I'm noting a few common criticisms: 1. Too many confusing rules (the translation errors, imprecise language, length of rulebook, etc.) 2. Confusing UI/UX (the color scheme, the symbols used, the location of symbols, etc. 3. Unbalanced or unfun missions (mostly to do with the time limits) Are there more? I would be very interested in which problem you would tackle first. I haven't played this game, but I feel personally that I could eventually get over 1, and I could eventually figure out 2, but I wouldn't be able to work through 3. Is there potential for changes that would help the game? I noticed many missions in Conan that have a time limit end on turn 10, and you mentioned a 7-turn time limit is too...limiting. Would extending that time limit help? Similar to your recommendation to Flick 'em Up, would fiddling with scenarios help the game? Or would you start elsewhere?
Thank you for saving me nearly 200 dollars! I literally cancelled my backing 10 minutes into this and then still came back to finish the review because it’s so entertaining
Speaking as someone who's tried to make board games/RPGs based on existing properties, this one just screams of the makers thinking out the characters, items, places and references *first* and figuring out intuitive gameplay systems... *Somewhere* down the line. 😂 I'd love a board game based on Batman's abilities, e.g. solve mysteries, stealth about, fight crooks and monsters. Sort of a combination of *Cluedo and Heroquest....* hmm... I think I've got an idea.
I ended up having a ton of issues with Conan. Mainly 1) Conan was the only fun hero, 2) the scenarios were only strictly for a certain number of players (this was REALLY stupid), and 3) the few number of maps were really static. From what I've seen about Batman, I can't say I'm excited about it, either.
POW! What a review guys, no one does it better. Seriously funny and genuine. Was worried you would recommend it at the end, glad you saw past all the cool stuff. A dinosaur, really?
I watched this while painting one of my Carnivorous Plant minis from the game. Yeah, I went all in and I recognise all these complaints. I'm not sure I regret the purchase, as we've had some fun already, and fan support helps a lot. Even tempted by parts of season 2, if only to get some Suicide Squad and Etrigan the Demon fun. Was interested by your recommendation for the minis game, but have been wary of that because the minis are a lot more expensive, figure by figure, and their Harry Potter game looks like a disaster. Still, maybe grabbing the rules would be worth it.
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Great review. It is fair to mention a couple of things though. First the vs mode, which is quite good and not in conan and second the fact that they are going to release next week a tool to create scenarios for the community in which you can do a scenario with the objective of killing someone or just fighting or whatever you want to do. I think this tool would give much more play time and fun here than in conan because the variety of heroes and villains is much larger (and better imo).
I'm mostly pissed off that they are doing another kickstarter for more expansions ... and I still don't even have a delivery date for my pledge from the first game. I suspect the kickstarter for the new expansions will be done and over before I have even managed to begin trying to play this once.
So I only purchased the core game and versus mode, and I couldn’t agree with you more 19:18 .... After playing several scenarios this game is so unbalanced. Rounds are so short to victory that every dice roll needs to be a success. For a success dice roll you need to spend all your energy cubes. If you spend all your energy cubes you then have to rest ultimately loosing a turn to regain more cubes. If you rest, all the villains have the opportunity to pounce on you and causing you to loose those cubes you were saving for your next turn. 🙇🏽♂️ House Rules 💯 1- add 2 rounds for each scenario 2- heroes still get their free movement when resting
I'm looking forward to the SU&SD review of Hellboy. From this vid I'm guessing it will be everything they liked about the combat and cool minis, but with easier to learn rules and mechanics, fun missions and interesting abilities and actions. (It is too hard though!)
If by "too hard" you mean "wildly random in ways that prevent you from planning or predicting and dice that are really punishing for no reason," then yes. Input AND output randomness. It's a slot machine, and it sucks.
"What's fun is completely different from how you win the game." That's exactly how I feel about Legends of Andor but I was never able to express it until now.
Thanks for the Calendar Man shout-out! :D This sprawling mess strikes me as a much more lavish production than was possible in the '80s, and good for filling the same niche that the Bat-Man Role-Playing Game tried to back then. So much delicious, overwrought silliness....
The whole review, I thought to myself that I'm glad I already play the Batman Miniature Game with a group of friends and therefore wasn't even tempted to buy this truckload of plastic. And in the end, you even recommended it. I can support your thesis, the Batman Miniature Game (in it's revised edition) seems to be a lot more fun than this game. Again and again, we had fights that are epic or bonkers or both and always feel like you are in the comics, no matter the gang you play.
Having sludged through several versions of warhammer 40k I always expect a game with a lot of minis to require constant rules referencing. The layout in the rule book is still absolutely piss poor. If you take the time to get into it with a dependable group it could get to be a lot of fun. The quality of the minis was VERY good for the price point (opposed to 40k) Turn limits are the real draw back IMO. A character might be beat up and resting for 2 or 3 rounds in a 7 round game. So after setting it up and explaining rules for a few hours your players get to sit out 1/3 to 1/2 the game sometimes. 6/10 for me. Not enough to justify my all in pledge. Maybe the new mission creator kit will help.
A buddy of mine went all-in on the first KS and spent about $400. He then unloaded it on ebay just before the 2nd season came out and sold it for $1200!!!!! It apparently was going for over 1K regularly, until the 2nd season KS came out on KS and the ebay prices tanked. I simply just don't get it. On a different note, I have to say, this is one of the best reviews I've ever seen. Being honest about the game and also suggesting a preivous game and the Batman miniatures game is very, very refreshing. You've earned a sub from me, that's for sure.
@@frederichenry7319 it's merely my personal opinion (although clearly shared by not only the reviewers but also quite a few viewers); your sarcasm isn't going to make it a better game either
Have you been playing the game at least ? If you have, well, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world. If you haven't then you may have been too quick to judge... Try a game, you never know... you may end up liking it ^^
I think the modern board games designers must take a step or two back in the way they make all those games with sooooo many tiles and pieces and tokens and things that will need table bigger than my bedroom to put on and about 1-1:30 hours to set up and put back in the box. There are games I don’t play because of that reason. ... And don't let me start about rule books that are so big I need a few days to read and have to search all the time during play. Games prices are to high for reasons like those. I don't need tokens and tiles. I need more scenarios and more maps with randomising mechanisms for maximum replayability.
Bartender:What can I getcha? Me: I'll take a boardgame. Bartender: Role playing game. Me: No, boardgame. Bartender: Role playing game. Me: B. O. A. Bartender: R. O. L.
Absolutely nailed it. This is so nearly a 9/10 game, that somehow - via KS excesses, bad graphic design choices, an overload of icons and an awful rulebook - manages to be just a 7/10. I was pleased to see that you have all of the same criticisms of the game that we have.
I really appreciate the reintroduction of jokes and skits into these less positive reviews. Good development from the Fallout one, for example. Games are inherently a bit silly and worth poking fun at!
so basically if you want the mini's and boards and rough set up help for a semi cool batman tabletop game where you throw the rules out the window make the turn counter a victory point tracker( Increased by defeating goons and the villian, where the amount required for victory decreases withe each successful skill check) make the villians role and kind of gm/dm position and literally do whatever you think is right for the board (Yes that is a window now and catwoman can totally climb on that forklift.) a decent game?
I felt the same way after just one play. It's a planningfest. You need to know exactly what EVERYONE can do and what ALL the special abilities do, and ALL the items, and then plan accordingly. That's not fun. "What's fun is completely different from how you win". Couldn't have said it better. If you're playing this and having fun beating up bad guys, you're gonna lose. So you play the same scenario again, but now you go through the obligatory movements you need to do to win, and hope you roll well.
Trevor Locke we played that with my group last time we got together. Very enjoyable experience. A lot of back-and-forth with who we thought would come out on top.
This review reminds me of our experience going through the rules and scenarios of Tanhauser. Cool graphics, intriguing world history (and that would be an RPG setting I'd love to try someday maybe using FATE or Call of Cthulhu), but the investment in set up and rules research has made it seldom played at our table.
Bravo, you entertained me start to finish talking about what sounds like a terrible game as someone not at all interested in miniatures or the Batman universe.
As an owner of the Conan retail version, four hero characters usually feels like there are too few to chose from. 25 might be too much because then you'd probably need another half hour just explaining what each hero is better at. But somewhere between 8 and 12 might have been nice.. not sure how much the Conan Kickstarter edition had, I think there were at least six. Also, it's strange they reduced the player count to "up to four" without any expansion. Not sure if this is just so they could sell another expansion. But being able to play with up to five people is a reason why Conan is getting play time. And on a side note, I'd usually feel strange seeing a game compared to another specific one that often. But well, it really seems like it's the same game with slight tweaks in another setting.
With Conan, the characters are set for a mission. With Batman each player gets a choice of 1-3 specific heroes. So, the pool each player chooses from is small since the max hero options between all players is 9. Versus mode (which requires an expansion) is the only way you have access to the full roster to build a team.
Great review. I wasn't sure about the gameplay criticism when it was mentioned on your podcast but you lay it out completely here. I'm probably going to save my money- hope that I meet someone who bought it and desperately wants it all painted.
I played 11 games in a month. Half with friends and half with my 8-1/2 years old daughter...and she even managed to convince her grandma (72 years old) to play with us because she love the game so much ! My first two games were meh but now it's a total blast! Very cinematographic actions and the system is easy (after you pass trough the icons and you state some touchy rules).
Number of plays matter in a game with a hefty rulebook. The second game is a lot faster than the first. This game is no different, and contrary to what this review implies its not impossible to teach, yes there is a lot of iconography for each character but boardgamegeek has a pdf of about 4 pages with all of them. No need to memorize anything except what pertains to your character.
Same! I'm still so tempted since I'm convinced I can manage to overcome these issues...which is probably just inaccurate and vain. Core Batman Miniatures box is actually the same price ironically.
Never make or cancel a purchase off of one review. Find a handful of reviewers that have your similar interests to get a larger sample size. I have heard plenty of bad things about Conan too. Depends on your tastes and those of your gaming group!
I can't play games where I have to remember all these rules - it works in a computer game when the computer fills in the details for you but trying to turn board game into a computer game played without a computer it just does not work.
Great review. Very nice humorous, and, as an all-in backer, I can completely recognize the criticism. The set up most of the time is really awful. But we had a lot of fun playing the game with friends. I guess we liked the “calculation” style of the game. And sometimes this feeling of last moment lucky roll is just awesome))) This game becomes really awesome the 4th time you play it.
My friend and i had a learning game. We were well aware that this was a game with a lot of rules. But because of this, whoever is teaching a game like this needs to know the rules well before fully experiencing it with a full player count. Luckily we are no stranger to longer games and were glad to figure out that the base mechanics are quite simple. The difficulty is added by the different objectives.
Also no index how's that even possible. isn't the back page of any material book a picture of all the icons with page numbers under them ! Then page has the icon and then the rule?
I own both Batman and Conan and can confirm everything they say here, except, I would still recommend Batman as the better game ONCE you get past all the fiddly time consuming stuff they talk about (and yes, print out a LOT of good references from Board Game Geek that make it MUCH easier to play.) The one thing that you can't get by without making changes to the rules is the absolute timer every mission is on. If you're fine with replaying a scenario until you learn to do it right (or as the villain, to not make blunders that made it too easy on the heroes), then you'll be fine. But, as they say, there is little or no time to just have fun doing super hero stuff! Every move you make has to be with a purpose so you end up doing what you have to do instead of what would be fun to do. (This is still fun, but you wish you were more free.)
I've heard that the limitations the heroes face, almost makes this a better 1v1 game (even in Adventure mode). It allows the hero player to always have something to do, even if one of his characters is resting or hacking or whatever.
While I don't think SUSD are being deliberately disingenuous, the claim that the Batman Miniatures Game by Knight Models is cheaper is completely wrong. To get JUST the Penguin faction runs between $96 - $150(!). BGCC definitely has a rough "first play" experience due to the overwhleming amount of iconography and skills. But for the money the core set provides an exhaustive Batman experience. You do need a group that can power through the learning curve though. To reproduce the contents of Batman (with 3D terrain, etc.), it would easily run over $1500 at Knight Models.
A full crew of Penguin (not every model on the range, I mean a 350 rep crew) on Miniature Market is about $75. You can put together a fairly cheap table of terrain for like $50 if you're a little crafty with paper terrain. If you have a local gaming store, that cost is essentially $0 if they provide miniature gaming terrain.
Miniature only games start out affordable but it can easily get out of hand rather quickly. Now you add what your friends had to pay...it’s a slippery slope!
@@Bandit-137 that's true, but that can also be said of games like GCC. Personally, if I had to choose between paying the $300 for the first season of the kickstarter myself, or paying $120~ for the stuff needed to play BMG and 3 of my friends do too, I'd rather take that, knowing the usability issues of GCC. all that being said, I really don't think the game are similar enough at all to say "this one is a better choice than the other", unless you ONLY want a Batman themed game.
@Joshua, totally agree with your last paragraph. I know my friends would not be interested in a pure miniature game let alone fronting the costs for one. But they will play a game like GCC once in a while as long as I front the costs and supply the alcohol. 👍
Quick story: My co-workers and I play board games for a whole day once a month. My Co-worker Hank bought the all-in kickstarter because he's got a boner for the batman. He brings this over to play, and it took him and our friend an hour in a half to set it up. Then a half hour to go over the freakin' rules for everyone. It was over two hours, and we didn't even play the game. When we went to play, we realized how unbalanced the first scenario is. Many hours later, we beat Bane, but it didn't feel rewarding at all. We basically sat there for over 5 hours to play a game that was draining, and bloated, and overall not a great time. So flash forward 5 months later, and he brings it again. We have a new player with us, which means an extra half hour of time explaining the game. I straight up told him no. I felt bad since he doesn't get to play the game, but it just takes so damn long for so little pay off. In that time we could play Conan, or play Dead of Winter, or Imperial Assault, OR EVEN ALL OF THEM. So this is a warning to people pledging to games on kickstarter blindly. If a game looks like it has a lot of stuff to set up, and play with, then it's probably gonna end up sitting on your shelf most game nights.
Mekova felt bad for you guys. I as the teacher avoid these situations by having the game rules already down . My first experience, I had each scenario planned ahead 10-15min set up time. Then teaching the rules was simple since They only need to know the basics to get started. We played two scenarios that night in 3hrs. My friends loved it.
@@guillermoz4914 Yeah, a part of the problem was the owner of the game drove down to where we were playing after he did a job, so he was already tired. He also didn't go over the rules like he should've, and he procrastinated opening some of the stuff up. There is a new batman game being released on kiockstarter that is based on the really good cartoon from the 90's that is similar. I might peep that out.
Mekova yeah based on the Batman animated series. Love the cartoons . I own the Ninja Turtles which has the same system. If you want a Batman IP it’s much easier to play. 🤓
@@guillermoz4914 Here's a fun little story. We played it again as a two player game. It took us, no joke, 2 hours to set up the scenario. He was the bad guys, and I was the good guys. Because I min-maxed my gear and character choices, I was able to beat the mission in only a few turns, aka around 30 minutes. Picture it. 2 hours of set up, for around 30 minutes of play. That's unreal. I was able to just get the cure for the virus or whatever, and leave without saying as much as a goodbye. Basically, I ran in, used smoke bombs to reduce enemy accuracy, beat up Penguin, used a bomb to blow open a wall with batman, had bat girl run in, do the hacking thing, have batman tank damage, then have both of them leave. We were both more disappointed than I was at my friends cat when she pee'd all over my bookbag in Highschool. Sure I could get another one, but it's still a bummer.
What a terrible host, i couldn't possibly bring a game to a table without at least 80% of the rules already dominated, also... your quick story was just as quick as this game's manual (just a little joke)
I realized 20 secs in that this was a kickstarter bloater. To be honest, everything that is miniature heavy is a complete turn off for me at this point. Still watched the whole thing :)
Totally agree plus its proper models cardboard for me. Or sone nice haptic wood cubes. Rule of thumb always confirmed by the Experts here, the more plastic the more it wants to hide. Only game that was plastic heavy that intersted me was that epic LoTR game. But lers face it...never would find time to set it up , or even play it. Totally igoring i know no one crazy enough to go on that major adventure. But it looks worth it. Those Kickstarter games are total shelf dust accumilating atrocities of neeless consum society though.
Saw that there was a Batman board game, got curious, and if it hasn't been said already in 11 months, a lot of this feels like it could be implemented in a more streamlined way by making it a computer game. By which I mean there's a lot of checking of reference materials, setup, and fiddly details which would benefit greatly from being automated and presented in a readable user interface of some sort. Which, sure, a lot of board games have digital versions (e.g. Talisman), but few have this level of complexity.
I backed the Claustrophobia 1643 KS. Played half a game and realised I did not have the patience to deal with the cryptic iconography. Where was the player aid? Made the game basically unplayable for me. Really sad to hear this suffers from the same problem.
What does that plus symbol mean? I don't understand. First mission shows catwoman (The long Halloween) with no plus symbol. The postman always rings twice mission shows Azrael with no plus symbol. Then the next mission major gas madness has Azrael with the plus symbol.
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It represents that the characters have some items, like weapons or things like that. If you look below the image of the hero you can see written what you get for the mission.
I watched this when you first made this video and someone brought the game to a meetup so I thought I'd comment after watching it again. It would be hypocritical for me to complain about the massive amount of plastic as I backed pretty much all of Cthulhu Wars, so I won't comment on that part. I will say that I largely agree with the review. I haven't played the Conan game so can't compare it but I loved the river idea, I really liked how combat worked, and the miniature quality and variety of characters were excellent. The rest was a mess really. The mass of tiny icons requiring the owner to bring those reference sheets, the map terrain being sometimes inscrutable (and I have a wargaming background so I'm used to maps with a ton of terrain types), the fact you have to rest at times while in the middle of essentially a battlefield, the objectives being boring to achieve while the great combat system plays second fiddle (as you succinctly point out here). I'd play it again if someone brought it but wouldn't request to play it and glad I didn't back it.
As someone who also bought Cthulhu Wars, I will say that even though the figures are sometimes impractically large (especially with games with 5+ players, the fat Tsathagghua model takes up almost an entire space) and that bloats the price considerably, the real value is in the game's tight construction, which Chronicles seems to ache for. You can teach the principles of Cthulhu Wars in about fifteen minutes and people will have a blast almost out the gate. Similarly, I've played Conan before, and I can vouch for its relative ease in setup and learning as well. Even the massive Gloomhaven, for all its little intricacies, is built on an easy to learn foundation with the player cards. Swords and Sorcery, which has a lot in common with Gloomhaven, feels almost like a halfway point between Chronicles and Gloomhaven in terms of rules/interface clutter, since Swords and Sorcery is also littered with cryptic symbols that will have you picking over reference sheets the first time you play it. That said, the rules clutter is much more manageable on the whole.
Echoed my feelings on the game almost perfectly. Amazing production, fantastic mechanical designs that can give deep and interesting choices for the players. But my god I've never played a game that was in so desperate need to crib sheets and reference guides. How the designers felt player would be able to memorize vital rules for entire maps with zero references to them on the actual board, or expecting players to memorize multiple character skills that in the book can have FIVE paragraphs of descriptive text apiece is beyond me. I couldn't imagine trying to play this game with more than one other person and having scenario specific reference guides that only show information you need for the characters/map for that exact scenario. That would cut all the rules search down to about 4 pages per scenario. But would also increase the rules book by about....100 pages.....
I'll add a note that I created player character aid cards that are easier to print (and also take less table space) and am in the process of making villain cards (boardgamegeek.com/filepage/181509/bgcc-hero-character-aid-cards). Yes I totally agree with all your criticisms though especially in particular about scenario balance and having fun. There is potential in it all but things need fixing.
Listen, I said early on in BGG that the game had problems, many of which many other influencers are starting to speak bout now, and I was crucified. and given a strong talking to on BGG by the admins AND the Monolith team told me "if you don't like it then its not the game for you" is is after taking my money of course for the all-in pledge. I went ahead anf bought it cause I loved Conan so much. I learned my lesson. Unless you love something don't speak ill about it or else.....I'm actually worried for these guys right now.
incredible review, possibly your best... It had over dubbing, there was a brief moment where you teased Matts basement, and kohlrabi. Also: "Boy Ribeen-A heroic critic" surely?
Call me crazy, but I think Reference Pear may be Bat Critic Man. Think about it, have you ever seen the two of them at the same room at the same time? And Bat Critic Man shows up on the day they use reference kohlrabis not reference pear?
Hopefully this'll be touched on some day in the SU&SD extended universe.
Impossible! Reference Pear is a pampered, wealthy playboy. Not the kind of guy you'd find on the streets, fighting board game crime.
I heard that Critic Boy was bitten by a rogue Reference Pear and became Bat Critic Man.
Is Bat Critic Man, Super Critic Man after he couldn't find any phone booths?
Looking at Gloomhaven I am almost convinced that Reference Pear is Lex Luthor. In my view BCM is closely connected to Shux team thou but there are not enough evidence in this video to tell who he really is...
This is the grossest example of Kickstarter Bloat I've ever seen.
This is most likely why they made it a kickstarter exclusive from the get-go...they knew this would get out of hand quick
That's because you haven't seen Joan of Arc.
what about Kingdom Death Monster? where scope creep is basically the selling point among its fans(which I am one of), like when Adam Poots announced that he had scrapped the completed Philosophy system because he thought the double-sided cards that were being used were too "gamey" and not thematic enough, and thus chose to replace them with all with little mini-bookletes complete with story text and randomization tables and/or choices instead.
All right mate, enjoy your wood cubes
@@markcardenas8843 The choice isin't "wooden cubes" or "literally 8 boxes of miniatures".
As an all-in backer who has played a number of times, I have to say - great review. I agree with many of the criticisms. I will say that my personal DC fandom adds a great deal of value for me (I can play a board game as Orphan!)
To me it is telling that it has roughly the same rules as Conan, plus maybe a page worth of extra manipulations, and the rulebook is roughly three times as long. Not only that, it is poorly translated with word choice sometimes making rules unnecessarily confusing (there were several times where words in the English version were left in French!) As a former professional manual writer, I can honestly say that this is a 20 page rulebook crammed into 55 pages. It's like a Peter Jackson movie!
i've seen similar poor word choice making rules unnecessarily confusing (BGG for the win) within claustrophobia 1643. i imagine this is just an ongoing theme with Monolith games (i do enjoy claustrophobia 1643, but felt kickstarter was just a "pre-order" for that game)
Since this video, I've spent more time around Monolith games. I like their stuff, but my impression is that they really don't place much importance on localization. It just isn't a priority for them. Conan's manual was so bad that it had to be replaced. Claustrophobia. Batman. Their updates posted for the Kickstarter includes references and charts labeled only in French. I have the feeling that their translator for in-game materials is a native French speaker who knows English, rather than an English speaker that speaks French (which can make a huge difference when it comes to the precision of language.)
They've been called on it and criticized for it again and again. It doesn't seem to matter to them, though.
30 seconds in I know I dont want it.
This kind of game isn´t designed to be played, but to cater to dynamics of crowdfunding campaigns.
Haha, same here. Naturally I'm going through the whole video but the first 30 seconds was all I needed to see to vindicate my decision to abstain from this nonsense.
I agree. I thought the kickstarter campaign made this blatantly obvious.
I personally see it more like an (expensive) toolkit with Batman miniatures (Which I'll also use for the Batman Miniatures game)... But that isn't for everyone and I totally get why this isn't for many boardgame players who're used to playing straight out of the box. I started from RPGs making my own adventures, monsters, rules, maps, handouts, etc. using HeroQuest Minis. This is pretty much the same with a Batman license. ;-)
@@Cergorach Funny. I started and actually am very involved in minitaure wargames. I am not a stranger to mountains of sprues and minis and thousands of hours of hobbywork and I used to play a lot of pen & paper.
In my eyes this game suffers from several issues many other crowndfunded games suffer and all for the same reason. These games are designed around a hierarchy of stretchgoals, often from game designers with little to no experience and without much in the way of playtesting.
Calling the game a toolkit, to me, is an excuse for lackluster design, missing direction and a bloat of components, most likely never to be used, due to flawed game design and bad rule editing.
Its a crowdfunding Golem.
If I look at a game on KS and it’s anywhere over $60, I don’t care how many minis it comes with, I’m not backing it. I’ll never understand a game costing more than that.
My only criticism of this review is that the intro should have been Batcritic and Night Robert running towards the screen in 1960s Batman style.
And maybe a scene where they "Pow!", "Biff!" and "Bam'd!" all those boxes. :D
Rumor has it they are still reading the rulebook
I laughed too hard at that
Finally a review who sees the problems and not just the hype. Good work
Holy boardgame critics Matt and Quinns. Fantastic review, clearly explained pros and cons, excellent camera clarity and lighting. Great pacing and dialogue. Keep up the good work.
quite possibly their best work yet!! Cheers Quinns n Matt!
My only complaint is that the other game is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more expensive
My 8 year old could not have laughed more at the constant Ribena cameos. When night Robert pulled out the bottle? Genius. Good work.
This is what we live for!
The bottle pull actually made me spit out my (non-Ribina) drink
Thank you soooooooo much for saving me $300+
Well,130$ is best value, those expansions from reviews are not that great or ballanced. For 130 it's not bad deal at all. But still after trying it, I am happy with Conan I have, and glad I didn't back it last time(and the fact that I am not fan of art and mini style they went with)
So confused, All my kohlrabis are green so I can't use for comparison. Do you have any Reference Rutabagas in stock?
This is vintage SUSD. Such a great, witty and thorough review. Glad to see you guys back in form.
After seeing this review I have cancelled my pledge in Kickstarter. I realized that it's too heavy and just too expensive. Also it won't probably hit my game table very often. I love Batman and DC Universe, but I totally agree with your point that they could have started it with just a few characters and work more on gameplay itself, balance it and just focus more on mechanics, not only on the miniatures. Thanks Shut up& Sit Down for saving me a lot of money, cheers!
OMG, 11:22 THANK YOU! It completely boggles my mind WHY I need to reference a picture of the map and not the map itself, with all its hugeness.
@Lassi Kinnunen As in the map board? I am not sure if you are suggesting I print a map or suggesting the Monolith missed their chance to include the information on the the actual board that is the map....To my logical perspective, it should be a functional tool first and a gorgeous piece of art second.
As someone that did buy everything, I am quite dissapointed to hear all of this. Haven't had the chance to play it yet, but hopefully I find the redeeming qualities worthwhile. I had wanted to get Conan, but heard about Batman, and specifically chose this over Conan because of the IP and hope that they would have improved upon the problems with the system the first time around. To hear that Conan was better is definitely saddening.
Also, good job recommending the Batman Miniatures Game. I have played that for years and truly love it.
I have both and I find Batman to be the better game, BUT you do have to get past all the issues they bring up here. There are some really great player reference sheets for each character on Board Game Geek that have all the skills listed and explained for the character you are playing in one place. Once you learn the rules and the quirks of the setup illustrations, you won't have to worry about them. But that's going to take some time that could be spend doing other things.
The biggest drawback is every mission is on a strict timer and there's no time to just have fun doing superhero stuff! That might be a deal breaker for people.
Timmo it seems like getting extra turns is in order jajaj
Hey at least Batman isn't aggressively sexist and horrendously limited in its female character options so that's a plus. For some groups that might even be a deciding factor.
Perhaps some house ruling to make it run more like Conan is in order?
Timmo Warner I would definitely recommend adding 2 rounds in each scenarios, allowing players to have fun attacking and not so much on going for scenarios. Also allows for a few bad dice rolls.
I’m also considering allowing the heroes to have their free movement when resting. So many times heroes can get stuck when resting that villains come in and knock them out.
Seeing it had a lot of miniatures and a visually appealing board I somehow knew already that it was a Kickstarter game.
The petition to replace Pattinson with Quinns as Batman starts here
What, no Bat Critic Man isn't Quinns. They're dressed totally differently! Obviously!
I was one of those BGG users who created a bunch of useful files to play the game: Condensed Rules, FAQ, Skill/Trait references
Another outstanding review. I love the world of Batman so much and was thinking about getting this, but this is like the downside of Kickstarter crystallised into a single game. You’ve saved me a huge amount of money, thank you again!
“...like questionable seafood moving through a digestive tract” - may be the best line in any board game review video I’ve watched 😂.
No other board game video reviews come close to SUSD in terms of clarity and entertainment. Thank you for continuing to be honest, clear, and concise in these video reviews. I can see how tempting it would be to receive a review copy (I’m assuming) and give it all the praise - especially with how expensive this game is. Just another reason why I’m a fan.
I can always rely on good information from you all. Keep up the GREAT work!
I have both Batman and Conan, and I haven't had a chance to play Batman yet but simply reading the rules and looking at components this is exactly what I feared. I love Conan and play it all the time, and I am definitely going to tweak the Batman missions to add either more players or more turns to allow players to have time to do fun and cool things. Hopefully that will be enough to recreate that Conan feel with a Batman flavor.
I'll be honest: I think this game has great potential, less as a competitive tabletop, and more as a ttrpg. The villain should operate less as s player giving it all to win and more as a DM tailoring the experience, and developing a campaign out of it
That and a willingness to go with a table ruling instead of digging through the current books for every exact answer.
After seeing how this turned out, I worry about future Kickstarter games that deal with big IPs and offer more and more and more stuff as stretch goals while the core game hasn’t been finalized yet. It seems like a recipe for overindulgence.
You think maybe?
I looked into the Batman Miniature Game and I'm not sure the assessment that it would be cheaper holds true. Yes, it has a lower barrier to entry, but, as with most piecemeal miniature systems, expanding your set can quickly reach a price that makes the sheer number of miniatures included in the Chronicles set pretty appealing. I wonder if playing BMG with the B:GCC minis might be the way to get the maximum out of both options(albeit with an initial cost in the $225 range)?
Gotta say, the colors in this video just pop; really great toning in post (also, great review)
I feel VERY lucky that my wife and I *love* this game. A lot of the main actions within the rulebook can be condensed into about a page, but you’ll likely know the rules off by heart after a few games. One of the best all-in gaming investments I’ve ever made!
yeah this game isnt as bad. These guys are just haters lol
"What's fun is completely different from how you win the game." That's exactly how I feel about Legends of Andor but I was never able to express it until now.
You seem to agree a lot with No Pun Included, which seems only reasonable for this game. Good job on the midway dubbing by the way, hardly noticeable.
There was midway dubbing?!?!??!?!?!
I don't know if I love this review more for its brutality or its humor.
Thank you again for your honesty. I had heard these criticisms from enough people that I had zero interest in a game.
I was offered a review copy, but I just have the time to invest to learn it and play it enough to do a review.
The rulebook, the icons, the lack of player aids. I've been fairly outspoken on things like this myself in the past.
This game has raised 5 Million collectively in first and second campaigns. It is suffering from poor game manual and difficult to learn rule set. It looks like you are maintaining a youtube channel for gaming rules/how to play and tutorials. Are you sure that you are invested in what you are doing? Customer obsession is key to success in there.
aligalahan I’m not sure I know what you mean. I am personally very invested in what I do :)
I just love the idea of the Batcave being under someone else's house and Bruce Wayne needing to keep coming up with reasons to use this person's basement.
Hi Matt and Quinns, if you were to make Gotham City Chronicles better, where would you start? What's the biggest hurdle holding the game back? I'm noting a few common criticisms:
1. Too many confusing rules (the translation errors, imprecise language, length of rulebook, etc.)
2. Confusing UI/UX (the color scheme, the symbols used, the location of symbols, etc.
3. Unbalanced or unfun missions (mostly to do with the time limits)
Are there more? I would be very interested in which problem you would tackle first. I haven't played this game, but I feel personally that I could eventually get over 1, and I could eventually figure out 2, but I wouldn't be able to work through 3. Is there potential for changes that would help the game? I noticed many missions in Conan that have a time limit end on turn 10, and you mentioned a 7-turn time limit is too...limiting. Would extending that time limit help? Similar to your recommendation to Flick 'em Up, would fiddling with scenarios help the game? Or would you start elsewhere?
Thank you for saving me nearly 200 dollars! I literally cancelled my backing 10 minutes into this and then still came back to finish the review because it’s so entertaining
Speaking as someone who's tried to make board games/RPGs based on existing properties, this one just screams of the makers thinking out the characters, items, places and references *first* and figuring out intuitive gameplay systems... *Somewhere* down the line. 😂
I'd love a board game based on Batman's abilities, e.g. solve mysteries, stealth about, fight crooks and monsters. Sort of a combination of *Cluedo and Heroquest....* hmm... I think I've got an idea.
I ended up having a ton of issues with Conan. Mainly 1) Conan was the only fun hero, 2) the scenarios were only strictly for a certain number of players (this was REALLY stupid), and 3) the few number of maps were really static. From what I've seen about Batman, I can't say I'm excited about it, either.
Batman at least fixes problem #1.
POW! What a review guys, no one does it better. Seriously funny and genuine. Was worried you would recommend it at the end, glad you saw past all the cool stuff. A dinosaur, really?
Your goal in life should be to find a significant other that thinks of you the same way Matt thinks about Batcritic-man
I watched this while painting one of my Carnivorous Plant minis from the game. Yeah, I went all in and I recognise all these complaints. I'm not sure I regret the purchase, as we've had some fun already, and fan support helps a lot. Even tempted by parts of season 2, if only to get some Suicide Squad and Etrigan the Demon fun.
Was interested by your recommendation for the minis game, but have been wary of that because the minis are a lot more expensive, figure by figure, and their Harry Potter game looks like a disaster. Still, maybe grabbing the rules would be worth it.
Great review. It is fair to mention a couple of things though. First the vs mode, which is quite good and not in conan and second the fact that they are going to release next week a tool to create scenarios for the community in which you can do a scenario with the objective of killing someone or just fighting or whatever you want to do. I think this tool would give much more play time and fun here than in conan because the variety of heroes and villains is much larger (and better imo).
Wait wait wait. You mean parents don't ordinarily charge interest on pocket money?
Oh dear.
I'm mostly pissed off that they are doing another kickstarter for more expansions ... and I still don't even have a delivery date for my pledge from the first game.
I suspect the kickstarter for the new expansions will be done and over before I have even managed to begin trying to play this once.
So I only purchased the core game and versus mode, and I couldn’t agree with you more 19:18 ....
After playing several scenarios this game is so unbalanced. Rounds are so short to victory that every dice roll needs to be a success.
For a success dice roll you need to spend all your energy cubes.
If you spend all your energy cubes you then have to rest ultimately loosing a turn to regain more cubes.
If you rest, all the villains have the opportunity to pounce on you and causing you to loose those cubes you were saving for your next turn. 🙇🏽♂️
House Rules 💯
1- add 2 rounds for each scenario
2- heroes still get their free movement when resting
I'm looking forward to the SU&SD review of Hellboy. From this vid I'm guessing it will be everything they liked about the combat and cool minis, but with easier to learn rules and mechanics, fun missions and interesting abilities and actions. (It is too hard though!)
If by "too hard" you mean "wildly random in ways that prevent you from planning or predicting and dice that are really punishing for no reason," then yes. Input AND output randomness. It's a slot machine, and it sucks.
"What's fun is completely different from how you win the game." That's exactly how I feel about Legends of Andor but I was never able to express it until now.
Thanks for the Calendar Man shout-out! :D
This sprawling mess strikes me as a much more lavish production than was possible in the '80s, and good for filling the same niche that the Bat-Man Role-Playing Game tried to back then.
So much delicious, overwrought silliness....
The whole review, I thought to myself that I'm glad I already play the Batman Miniature Game with a group of friends and therefore wasn't even tempted to buy this truckload of plastic. And in the end, you even recommended it. I can support your thesis, the Batman Miniature Game (in it's revised edition) seems to be a lot more fun than this game. Again and again, we had fights that are epic or bonkers or both and always feel like you are in the comics, no matter the gang you play.
ME TOO! Bought a ton literally the month before this was announced.
@DerGrantelbart nope.
@DerGrantelbart cool story. Be well!
Having sludged through several versions of warhammer 40k I always expect a game with a lot of minis to require constant rules referencing. The layout in the rule book is still absolutely piss poor.
If you take the time to get into it with a dependable group it could get to be a lot of fun.
The quality of the minis was VERY good for the price point (opposed to 40k)
Turn limits are the real draw back IMO. A character might be beat up and resting for 2 or 3 rounds in a 7 round game. So after setting it up and explaining rules for a few hours your players get to sit out 1/3 to 1/2 the game sometimes.
6/10 for me. Not enough to justify my all in pledge. Maybe the new mission creator kit will help.
A buddy of mine went all-in on the first KS and spent about $400. He then unloaded it on ebay just before the 2nd season came out and sold it for $1200!!!!! It apparently was going for over 1K regularly, until the 2nd season KS came out on KS and the ebay prices tanked. I simply just don't get it.
On a different note, I have to say, this is one of the best reviews I've ever seen. Being honest about the game and also suggesting a preivous game and the Batman miniatures game is very, very refreshing. You've earned a sub from me, that's for sure.
That voice squeak at 15:36 made my day
Stupidly over the top... Classic example of style over substance. Great review as always but a poor poor game
Thx
@@frederichenry7319 it's merely my personal opinion (although clearly shared by not only the reviewers but also quite a few viewers); your sarcasm isn't going to make it a better game either
Poor poor game with 8+ in board game geek. Lool?!
@@prof3gamer988 yes
Have you been playing the game at least ? If you have, well, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world. If you haven't then you may have been too quick to judge... Try a game, you never know... you may end up liking it ^^
I think the modern board games designers must take a step or two back in the way they make all those games with sooooo many tiles and pieces and tokens and things that will need table bigger than my bedroom to put on and about 1-1:30 hours to set up and put back in the box.
There are games I don’t play because of that reason. ...
And don't let me start about rule books that are so big I need a few days to read and have to search all the time during play.
Games prices are to high for reasons like those.
I don't need tokens and tiles. I need more scenarios and more maps with randomising mechanisms for maximum replayability.
Really hoping the season 3 rules update makes this game more playable.
Bartender:What can I getcha?
Me: I'll take a boardgame.
Bartender: Role playing game.
Me: No, boardgame.
Bartender: Role playing game.
Me: B. O. A.
Bartender: R. O. L.
This comment makes me want a beer.
Absolutely nailed it. This is so nearly a 9/10 game, that somehow - via KS excesses, bad graphic design choices, an overload of icons and an awful rulebook - manages to be just a 7/10.
I was pleased to see that you have all of the same criticisms of the game that we have.
8+ in board game geek
I really appreciate the reintroduction of jokes and skits into these less positive reviews. Good development from the Fallout one, for example. Games are inherently a bit silly and worth poking fun at!
so basically if you want the mini's and boards and rough set up help for a semi cool batman tabletop game where you throw the rules out the window make the turn counter a victory point tracker( Increased by defeating goons and the villian, where the amount required for victory decreases withe each successful skill check) make the villians role and kind of gm/dm position and literally do whatever you think is right for the board (Yes that is a window now and catwoman can totally climb on that forklift.) a decent game?
I felt the same way after just one play. It's a planningfest. You need to know exactly what EVERYONE can do and what ALL the special abilities do, and ALL the items, and then plan accordingly. That's not fun. "What's fun is completely different from how you win". Couldn't have said it better. If you're playing this and having fun beating up bad guys, you're gonna lose. So you play the same scenario again, but now you go through the obligatory movements you need to do to win, and hope you roll well.
You guys should review island of el dorado. I’m curious to what you guys would think of it
Trevor Locke we played that with my group last time we got together. Very enjoyable experience. A lot of back-and-forth with who we thought would come out on top.
"Questionable seafood through a digestive tract" lol
This review reminds me of our experience going through the rules and scenarios of Tanhauser. Cool graphics, intriguing world history (and that would be an RPG setting I'd love to try someday maybe using FATE or Call of Cthulhu), but the investment in set up and rules research has made it seldom played at our table.
I already regret backing this in the first kickstarter :-/
Kickstarter us lots of smoke and mirrors often with nothing behind, Borderline scam. But hey its not like you voted Trump or Brexit. :-D
Bravo, you entertained me start to finish talking about what sounds like a terrible game as someone not at all interested in miniatures or the Batman universe.
Bat-critic-man's flesh colored eyelids are freaky deeky! Absolutely nightmare inducing!
hahah true, also black eye make up with a blue mask??
Haha! Funniest video in ages. So well done. I backed this and don't regret it, but definitely see your points.
That newspaper article gave me a few giggles, worth the pause.
I have the exact same pyrex measuring bowl that I also use for comically inappropriate foods / soups / drinks
As an owner of the Conan retail version, four hero characters usually feels like there are too few to chose from. 25 might be too much because then you'd probably need another half hour just explaining what each hero is better at. But somewhere between 8 and 12 might have been nice.. not sure how much the Conan Kickstarter edition had, I think there were at least six.
Also, it's strange they reduced the player count to "up to four" without any expansion. Not sure if this is just so they could sell another expansion. But being able to play with up to five people is a reason why Conan is getting play time.
And on a side note, I'd usually feel strange seeing a game compared to another specific one that often. But well, it really seems like it's the same game with slight tweaks in another setting.
With Conan, the characters are set for a mission. With Batman each player gets a choice of 1-3 specific heroes. So, the pool each player chooses from is small since the max hero options between all players is 9.
Versus mode (which requires an expansion) is the only way you have access to the full roster to build a team.
Wow that base at 18:09 is wickedly warped. That seems like the hardest bit to mess up...
Oh see up to about 1:02 I had no idea how big the game was or how big Matt & Quinns were in this one. That was rough.
No Calendar Man?? I'm out.
This made me want to buy conan
Me too! Want to play sometime? 😉
Do so. It's good. Expansions are too expensive but the base is fun enough
It's $60 on Amazon rn
Great review. I wasn't sure about the gameplay criticism when it was mentioned on your podcast but you lay it out completely here. I'm probably going to save my money- hope that I meet someone who bought it and desperately wants it all painted.
I want mine painted :)
@@TracerQQ I'm in AZ if you're interested
@@nikvernon4251 heh, I'm in Toronto, so probably not worth it. Thanks for the offer :)
Man I visited your site and saw a picture with a lot of Joker miniatures and variants... and fell in love. Where can I get those???
I played 11 games in a month. Half with friends and half with my 8-1/2 years old daughter...and she even managed to convince her grandma (72 years old) to play with us because she love the game so much ! My first two games were meh but now it's a total blast! Very cinematographic actions and the system is easy (after you pass trough the icons and you state some touchy rules).
Number of plays matter in a game with a hefty rulebook. The second game is a lot faster than the first. This game is no different, and contrary to what this review implies its not impossible to teach, yes there is a lot of iconography for each character but boardgamegeek has a pdf of about 4 pages with all of them. No need to memorize anything except what pertains to your character.
‘Shut Up and Give Me the Key to Your Basement’ - new title of the show
Of course I find this AFTER I pledged, not 10 minutes ago....off to figure out if I can cancel it....and to research Batman Miniatures...
Same! I'm still so tempted since I'm convinced I can manage to overcome these issues...which is probably just inaccurate and vain. Core Batman Miniatures box is actually the same price ironically.
It's kickstarter...of course you can cancel.
Never make or cancel a purchase off of one review. Find a handful of reviewers that have your similar interests to get a larger sample size. I have heard plenty of bad things about Conan too. Depends on your tastes and those of your gaming group!
I can't play games where I have to remember all these rules - it works in a computer game when the computer fills in the details for you but trying to turn board game into a computer game played without a computer it just does not work.
Great review. Very nice humorous, and, as an all-in backer, I can completely recognize the criticism.
The set up most of the time is really awful.
But we had a lot of fun playing the game with friends. I guess we liked the “calculation” style of the game. And sometimes this feeling of last moment lucky roll is just awesome)))
This game becomes really awesome the 4th time you play it.
@B Palmer Depends)
My friend and i had a learning game. We were well aware that this was a game with a lot of rules. But because of this, whoever is teaching a game like this needs to know the rules well before fully experiencing it with a full player count. Luckily we are no stranger to longer games and were glad to figure out that the base mechanics are quite simple.
The difficulty is added by the different objectives.
Also no index how's that even possible. isn't the back page of any material book a picture of all the icons with page numbers under them ! Then page has the icon and then the rule?
I own both Batman and Conan and can confirm everything they say here, except, I would still recommend Batman as the better game ONCE you get past all the fiddly time consuming stuff they talk about (and yes, print out a LOT of good references from Board Game Geek that make it MUCH easier to play.)
The one thing that you can't get by without making changes to the rules is the absolute timer every mission is on. If you're fine with replaying a scenario until you learn to do it right (or as the villain, to not make blunders that made it too easy on the heroes), then you'll be fine. But, as they say, there is little or no time to just have fun doing super hero stuff! Every move you make has to be with a purpose so you end up doing what you have to do instead of what would be fun to do. (This is still fun, but you wish you were more free.)
I've heard that the limitations the heroes face, almost makes this a better 1v1 game (even in Adventure mode). It allows the hero player to always have something to do, even if one of his characters is resting or hacking or whatever.
@@derekgarcia3069 Yes, it plays very well controlling more than one hero as long as you can keep all their different abilities straight!
"MatthewLees!" always makes me think of a Greek hero :D
The hilariousness of the eye shadow under the mask is directly proportional to how unnecessary it is.
Lets face it...he couldnt let that chance slip :-D
Anyone else notice Sparky from Dead of Winter at the 21:09 mark???
Sentinel Tactics! Love that game. Excellent frame work for coming up with your own rules, heroes and scenarios.
While I don't think SUSD are being deliberately disingenuous, the claim that the Batman Miniatures Game by Knight Models is cheaper is completely wrong. To get JUST the Penguin faction runs between $96 - $150(!). BGCC definitely has a rough "first play" experience due to the overwhleming amount of iconography and skills. But for the money the core set provides an exhaustive Batman experience. You do need a group that can power through the learning curve though.
To reproduce the contents of Batman (with 3D terrain, etc.), it would easily run over $1500 at Knight Models.
A full crew of Penguin (not every model on the range, I mean a 350 rep crew) on Miniature Market is about $75. You can put together a fairly cheap table of terrain for like $50 if you're a little crafty with paper terrain. If you have a local gaming store, that cost is essentially $0 if they provide miniature gaming terrain.
Miniature only games start out affordable but it can easily get out of hand rather quickly. Now you add what your friends had to pay...it’s a slippery slope!
@@Bandit-137 that's true, but that can also be said of games like GCC. Personally, if I had to choose between paying the $300 for the first season of the kickstarter myself, or paying $120~ for the stuff needed to play BMG and 3 of my friends do too, I'd rather take that, knowing the usability issues of GCC.
all that being said, I really don't think the game are similar enough at all to say "this one is a better choice than the other", unless you ONLY want a Batman themed game.
@Joshua, totally agree with your last paragraph.
I know my friends would not be interested in a pure miniature game let alone fronting the costs for one. But they will play a game like GCC once in a while as long as I front the costs and supply the alcohol. 👍
Quick story:
My co-workers and I play board games for a whole day once a month. My Co-worker Hank bought the all-in kickstarter because he's got a boner for the batman.
He brings this over to play, and it took him and our friend an hour in a half to set it up. Then a half hour to go over the freakin' rules for everyone. It was over two hours, and we didn't even play the game.
When we went to play, we realized how unbalanced the first scenario is. Many hours later, we beat Bane, but it didn't feel rewarding at all. We basically sat there for over 5 hours to play a game that was draining, and bloated, and overall not a great time.
So flash forward 5 months later, and he brings it again. We have a new player with us, which means an extra half hour of time explaining the game. I straight up told him no. I felt bad since he doesn't get to play the game, but it just takes so damn long for so little pay off. In that time we could play Conan, or play Dead of Winter, or Imperial Assault, OR EVEN ALL OF THEM.
So this is a warning to people pledging to games on kickstarter blindly. If a game looks like it has a lot of stuff to set up, and play with, then it's probably gonna end up sitting on your shelf most game nights.
Mekova felt bad for you guys. I as the teacher avoid these situations by having the game rules already down . My first experience, I had each scenario planned ahead 10-15min set up time. Then teaching the rules was simple since They only need to know the basics to get started. We played two scenarios that night in 3hrs. My friends loved it.
@@guillermoz4914 Yeah, a part of the problem was the owner of the game drove down to where we were playing after he did a job, so he was already tired. He also didn't go over the rules like he should've, and he procrastinated opening some of the stuff up.
There is a new batman game being released on kiockstarter that is based on the really good cartoon from the 90's that is similar. I might peep that out.
Mekova yeah based on the Batman animated series. Love the cartoons . I own the Ninja Turtles which has the same system. If you want a Batman IP it’s much easier to play. 🤓
@@guillermoz4914 Here's a fun little story.
We played it again as a two player game.
It took us, no joke, 2 hours to set up the scenario.
He was the bad guys, and I was the good guys.
Because I min-maxed my gear and character choices, I was able to beat the mission in only a few turns, aka around 30 minutes.
Picture it. 2 hours of set up, for around 30 minutes of play.
That's unreal. I was able to just get the cure for the virus or whatever, and leave without saying as much as a goodbye.
Basically, I ran in, used smoke bombs to reduce enemy accuracy, beat up Penguin, used a bomb to blow open a wall with batman, had bat girl run in, do the hacking thing, have batman tank damage, then have both of them leave.
We were both more disappointed than I was at my friends cat when she pee'd all over my bookbag in Highschool.
Sure I could get another one, but it's still a bummer.
What a terrible host, i couldn't possibly bring a game to a table without at least 80% of the rules already dominated, also... your quick story was just as quick as this game's manual (just a little joke)
Christ it genuinely sounds like this wasn't playtested at all...
I realized 20 secs in that this was a kickstarter bloater. To be honest, everything that is miniature heavy is a complete turn off for me at this point. Still watched the whole thing :)
Totally agree plus its proper models cardboard for me. Or sone nice haptic wood cubes. Rule of thumb always confirmed by the Experts here, the more plastic the more it wants to hide. Only game that was plastic heavy that intersted me was that epic LoTR game. But lers face it...never would find time to set it up , or even play it. Totally igoring i know no one crazy enough to go on that major adventure. But it looks worth it. Those Kickstarter games are total shelf dust accumilating atrocities of neeless consum society though.
Saw that there was a Batman board game, got curious, and if it hasn't been said already in 11 months, a lot of this feels like it could be implemented in a more streamlined way by making it a computer game. By which I mean there's a lot of checking of reference materials, setup, and fiddly details which would benefit greatly from being automated and presented in a readable user interface of some sort. Which, sure, a lot of board games have digital versions (e.g. Talisman), but few have this level of complexity.
I backed the Claustrophobia 1643 KS. Played half a game and realised I did not have the patience to deal with the cryptic iconography. Where was the player aid? Made the game basically unplayable for me. Really sad to hear this suffers from the same problem.
StarryVeck My gf and I love Claustrophobia 1643! We downloaded and laminated two player aids and have had a blast playing it.
What a great review! I love the pros and cons and agree. Thanks for saving me a ton of money.
What does that plus symbol mean? I don't understand. First mission shows catwoman (The long Halloween) with no plus symbol. The postman always rings twice mission shows Azrael with no plus symbol. Then the next mission major gas madness has Azrael with the plus symbol.
It represents that the characters have some items, like weapons or things like that. If you look below the image of the hero you can see written what you get for the mission.
Best reviewers of all the channels. Plus, the games they expose you to that you did not know existed.💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎💎
this was hilarious ;D awesome review guys!
I know I’ve seen Bat Critic someplace before...
I watched this when you first made this video and someone brought the game to a meetup so I thought I'd comment after watching it again.
It would be hypocritical for me to complain about the massive amount of plastic as I backed pretty much all of Cthulhu Wars, so I won't comment on that part. I will say that I largely agree with the review. I haven't played the Conan game so can't compare it but I loved the river idea, I really liked how combat worked, and the miniature quality and variety of characters were excellent.
The rest was a mess really. The mass of tiny icons requiring the owner to bring those reference sheets, the map terrain being sometimes inscrutable (and I have a wargaming background so I'm used to maps with a ton of terrain types), the fact you have to rest at times while in the middle of essentially a battlefield, the objectives being boring to achieve while the great combat system plays second fiddle (as you succinctly point out here).
I'd play it again if someone brought it but wouldn't request to play it and glad I didn't back it.
As someone who also bought Cthulhu Wars, I will say that even though the figures are sometimes impractically large (especially with games with 5+ players, the fat Tsathagghua model takes up almost an entire space) and that bloats the price considerably, the real value is in the game's tight construction, which Chronicles seems to ache for. You can teach the principles of Cthulhu Wars in about fifteen minutes and people will have a blast almost out the gate. Similarly, I've played Conan before, and I can vouch for its relative ease in setup and learning as well. Even the massive Gloomhaven, for all its little intricacies, is built on an easy to learn foundation with the player cards. Swords and Sorcery, which has a lot in common with Gloomhaven, feels almost like a halfway point between Chronicles and Gloomhaven in terms of rules/interface clutter, since Swords and Sorcery is also littered with cryptic symbols that will have you picking over reference sheets the first time you play it. That said, the rules clutter is much more manageable on the whole.
Echoed my feelings on the game almost perfectly. Amazing production, fantastic mechanical designs that can give deep and interesting choices for the players. But my god I've never played a game that was in so desperate need to crib sheets and reference guides. How the designers felt player would be able to memorize vital rules for entire maps with zero references to them on the actual board, or expecting players to memorize multiple character skills that in the book can have FIVE paragraphs of descriptive text apiece is beyond me.
I couldn't imagine trying to play this game with more than one other person and having scenario specific reference guides that only show information you need for the characters/map for that exact scenario. That would cut all the rules search down to about 4 pages per scenario. But would also increase the rules book by about....100 pages.....
I'll add a note that I created player character aid cards that are easier to print (and also take less table space) and am in the process of making villain cards (boardgamegeek.com/filepage/181509/bgcc-hero-character-aid-cards). Yes I totally agree with all your criticisms though especially in particular about scenario balance and having fun. There is potential in it all but things need fixing.
Listen, I said early on in BGG that the game had problems, many of which many other influencers are starting to speak bout now, and I was crucified. and given a strong talking to on BGG by the admins AND the Monolith team told me "if you don't like it then its not the game for you" is is after taking my money of course for the all-in pledge. I went ahead anf bought it cause I loved Conan so much. I learned my lesson. Unless you love something don't speak ill about it or else.....I'm actually worried for these guys right now.
incredible review, possibly your best... It had over dubbing, there was a brief moment where you teased Matts basement, and kohlrabi.
Also: "Boy Ribeen-A heroic critic" surely?
Oh regrets when I realise; Boy Ribeen-A Critical Hero is better