The Problems with Linux No One Talks About (Featuring
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- What's wrong with Linux? In this video, Jay and @RaidOwl discuss some of the issues that surround Linux and prevent wider adoption in the desktop market. This video is part of Learn Linux TV's 45 Drives Creators Summit coverage.
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Typical Windows/Mac user complaints. Cliché
Except … if you're trying to be "The universal operating system" (Debian) or "Linux for everyone" (Mint-IDK if they actually call it that, but I certainly have), then … the complaints are at least valid complaints from their perspective, even if they have solutions or if they just don't apply to your type of user (because you use Arch BTW?)
More than 25 years ago, the problem with Linux was that non-Linux users needed to BAFB in order to figure out how to install it. We fixed that and it got easier to install than Windows 2000/XP. Yes, even Debian, which still uses the same damned installer we came up with way back then. yeek. Okay but it works.
Then a local loudmouth who loves the sound of his voice (and trying to embed his weird brand of politics into Linux in more recent years) made videos every year saying that Linux sucks because audio was a freakin' mess. He was right about Linux audio with ALSA and Pulse, YMMV on his politics. A decade later finally everyone's using Pipewire now and it fixes that sh…tuff, mostly. Cool.
Hopefully it won't take a decade to fix the next complaint because Windows has become f&&king predatory to its users.
It's more like a typical Mac user. He would've run into the same problems switching to Windows.
He uses products that you cant get on Linux like lightroom that dont have a good linux alternative, i wouldnt have even bothered trying linux in this case
The problems with Linux could be summarized in two things:
- People use operating systems as a application platform.
- People want a product, not a project.
Don't install MS Windows 11, its definitely a project and ever time MS fix something they break something else. I use my phone to talk to other people I don't use it as a application Platform.
@@clivewiddus3953 Windows 11 is not the only other alternative out there. And you use your phone to talk to people. And by saying that, you've proven my point that you use a device running either iOS or Android to perform a function regardless of what's happening underneath. Your application use of your phone is talking to people.
@clivewiddus3953 I installed Windows 11 (upgraded from 10). I like it. It's not a project. Its been working perfectly. That's not something I can say about Linux. I used Linux at work for a year and I didn't like it. I've attempted Linux installations, and they've always failed. I did get a version of Ubuntu installed on an old PC by our IT dept. Used it for a few months. Didn't like it. Put Windows back on. I can only fault two versions of Windows out of 27 years as a user... W98 was unstable and W8 was a joke but MS fixed it.
Using operating system as application platform requires stable OS to install 3rd party app. Then the OS do matter and need to stay away from rolling releases and those where platform is changing twice a year.
No need to use project. Things that are made for production use are products.
Well, that said: What is more "projectlike" than Windows? Nearly every month there are Updatetroubles, datasecurityproblems, broken functions etc. Not seen this at Linuxservers till today....
Windows - an operating system? Or a big fat data vacuumcleaner that sucks you in and never spits you out again while telling you what you have to do next... pushing you in the Mscloud and onlineaccounts and all that other .....This is NOT an operating system. In the best case, you do not notice the OS and it is "backgrounding". Windows is doing the exact thing, just the other way around...
Thanks Jay! This was a great conversation not only to have but for everyone else to see. The fact that a novice like myself can sit down with an expert and have a mutual understanding of issues that need to be addressed is a great start. I've met a ton of people from the Linux community who break the stereotype of "RTFM edgelords" so it's unfortunate that the loud minority of those kill the reputation and scare off new users. I'm hoping in the not-so-distant future I'll be able to ACTUALLY make the switch from Windows, but until then I'll just keep trying.
In my opinion, people should be more aware of vendor lock-in, planned obsolescence practices and what are the hardware and software standards. Industry standards are not stuff that happens to work in macOS or Windows. They are those network standard protocols, open specifications, specifications made by working groups where all industry members are crafting what is the standard.
But switching to Linux is however... different. It is obvious for developers, data analytics, scientists etc. but many others the value is decrappification, taking advantage of cumulative learning from open source software and avoiding to get scammed.
In reality it doesn't matter what OS someone is using. Everyone has own preferences.
@@gruntaxeman3740
"In reality it doesn't matter what OS someone is using. Everyone has own preferences."
This is spot on.
I pick the tool that best serve the needs, whatever that might be.
For my HPC applications, Linux works better for this stuff.
For gaming (e.g. Cities Skylines 2/Halo Infinite), Windows is better for that.
For video (non-DTS:X audio), Mac works better for me.
For DTS:X audio passthrough to HDMI eARC, Windows works better for that.
And before ZFS on Linux was a thing, ZFS on Solaris was the way to go.
Each tool, in the toolbox, serve its purpose.
9vvvvvvvvvv😊
I love that an RTFM response on your forum is bannable. Well done!
That should be the rule in every technical help forum.
@@ArturdeSousaRocha I agree with your sentiment.
But
If you're brave enough to explore a whole different OS and kernel, you should be equally brave enough to RTFM. People should never be toxic and discourage questions! But people should also not be intellectually lazy.
Look, I've read the extensive literature on several distros: Debian, Fedora, Arch, Qubes, Tails, Kicksecure, etc-word for word in many cases. And guess what. None of it was in language that wasn't perfectly clear. And I was able to solve the vast majority of my issues by simply RTFM. Only after I've exhausted that and searching through at least two or three forums for answers will I then ask. And I'll preface my question with the research I've done.
And when I take those steps, experts of the forum literally jump to answer my questions
@@a.b-Clay I've received and seen rude responses even WITH prefacing questions with places and sites I've researched. And some of the documentation is not well fleshed out, leading to questions from people who are less familiar with the project.
@@a.b-Clay your sentence in the second paragraph: "And I'll preface my question with the research I've done.", is the key. I have seen great response and answers to some difficult issues by following that path. "Experts" who would normally not answer what they perceive as simple question actually swoop in and give you an elegant answer while telling you where you could find it. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you give good advice.
@@a.b-Clay but it's OK to be 'intellectually lazy'. There is no one way to learn, and sometimes asking an expert is better than reading an entire book to get a sliver of information. The fact that you are upset is more a *you* problem than a *them* problem. If you are responding to a question on a forum like that, it is your job on those forums to help. If you don't want to help, just don't respond. Nobody is forcing you to answer, and answering rudely discourages new users instead of helping. So you are actively working against everything those forums are trying to do when you tell someone to RTFM, regardless of your problem with the way they're learning.
I want a t-shirt that has the Debian logo, but I want it to say "I don't use Arch by the way"
I use Debian by the way😂
I’ve the Debian with ‘think correctly’ text. Love it!
It's fine. No one's perfect.
Of cause I use Debian.
Are you not using Debian yet?
The problem is that it's a Windows world out there so while I run Linux, I can't get away from Windows 100% because of certain things that are made and only work for Windows... So it's most of the time in a VM for me but sometimes it has to be dual boot on a bare-metal install. It's also really difficult finding support sometimes for what you need without getting a ton of opinionated jerks jumping all over you for doing something a certain way etc.
What you're doing with a VM is annoying, but it's a necessary step to getting rid of Windows IMO. Making that easy to do is probably one of the major next steps. When Apple went to Intel, there was a product called Parallels, it was all about virtualizing Windows in a way that was as transparent as possible for the Mac user. A VMware product followed.
Unfortunately the VMware product was kind of neutered on the UI in that you couldn't tweak all the settings you normally would because "dur-hur-hur it's for Mac users". But seriously we kinda need a Parallels/VMware Fusion for Linux. Sure, more configurable because you can do a lot with those … but the sane defaults, and ideally operating in a "rootless" mode, but let's start with a sane defaults it-works-first and tweak later if you want.
Perfect solution? No. But improving the experience for Linux users is an iterative process.
In my opinion, the “jumping on” situation is improving. But the “use this distro.” as a solution is still annoying.
During the windows 8 and 8.1 days I converted a lot of people (especially the elderly generation) to Ubuntu. They hated the 8 interface. Most of what they did web browser based, except for office and in just about every case Libre office was good enough. Since windows 10 it's been harder to flip people. Windows has gotten better, and Chromebooks filled the space with the clients I was already converting.
Copilot and the recap thing brings some fresh air for more people to try Linux.
@@MrvelvetviruS My kids have windows because they game, but because of school they are way more comfortable in ChromeOS. Before their gaming PCs they had Pi400s with a ChromiumOS build. So the up coming generation I could see the normal being carrying a higher end chromebook for a daily laptop and some sort of steam deck/ Steam OS gaming PC. I know college professors for IT /Computer science already having issues with new students only knowing their phones OS and ChromeOS, and not familiar with windows or Mac at all.
Most people would be perfectly happy with a Chromebook. Is that wrong?
@@MrvelvetviruS
I turn all of that stuff off, the first chance I get.
But that is no different than, post fresh install of Linux, that I will then start going into all of the various places, within said Linux system, and start customising it to my liking as well.
It has been my experience tha some Linux users will spend an inordinate amount of time, customsing Linux to EXACTLY how they want it, and then bitch about how shitty Windows is, because they aren't willing to do the same, in Windows.
They just like to bitch about it.
I just stayed with Windows 7 until 10 was released. Tried Linux on an old PC some time around when Windows 8 was released but it sucked in my opinion.
Ya know what I like about Linux as a desktop/laptop? That I can load it, fire it up and I don't have to "hack into" it like I'm trying to access my freaking bank website. Windows forcing people to have accounts with them just to get into their own local PC was the last straw for me. When I first loaded a Linux desktop and was able to use it without having to put in any personal information, it was like a breath of fresh air. It was also very nostalgic. Like when I was a kid on Windows XP. Or an old Xbox. Turn it on and do what you want. No proving who you are, authenticating, entering product keys, making accounts, figuring out how to get past the ads, the news, the garbage. Just it, and the thing I wanted it to do for me.
Agreed. Anonymity needs to comeback. Too much telemetry on Windows and data collection.
@@psk177 I think it is easier to trim Windows down a bit, than to pimp up Linux. There are several Windows debloating scripts out there, use one of them, create a local account and add PiHole or something for your privacy to your network, it's done within an hour or day, compared to investing multiple weeks trying to get Linux up to the Windows level of functionality. I've been through this, as a hardcore Windows user, you will still end up with a bunch missing applications and general ease of use / functionality (like no UNC path support anywhere in Linux, drag'n drop not working correctly, missing transfer compression when doing remote desktop work etc.).
It surely depends on what you are doing with your computer, the more professional or die hard you make use of Windows, the harder the switch to Linux will be, if you require Adobe Camera Raw for photo development, you are screwed on Linux, the same goes for file management, there just is no Directory Opus like file manager on Linux. If you don't need this kind of software, then you might get along.
less is more, that's the way of linux, and the reason why I love it. I use debian because I love boring but stable and secured distros, I'm also new to linux and I like it, it reminds me of using XP and Windows 7 the desktop experience that I miss
Don't quite understand pretense with Windows.
Disable internet connection. Create local account. Do whatever you want without giving this information to Microsoft. Well, except using Microsoft Store which also has separate login. Winget should still work though.
And even if you logged into Microsoft account, you can just unlogin from it and switch to local account afterwards.
It's not like you use day to day PC without ever logging into something anyways. Like you logged onto TH-cam to leave that comment.
You logged into account on your phone to gain access to application store. No matter if it is iOS or Android.
But you DON'T have to sign up for a Microsoft account, to use Windows.
Win10 isn't like that.
With Win11, you can press Shift+F10, and then type in "oobe\bypassnro", press Enter, let it reboot, and then you can set up your system with an offline account.
IS it an extra step? Yes.
But are you REQUIRED to have a Microsoft account? No.
What you wrote here is woefully inaccurate.
You could LITERALLY google it in a matter of minutes.
At some point, you have to acknowledge that the documentation might not be clear. I've seen plenty of barebones documentation that doesn't get into specific details.
What documentation?
The Windows versus Linux discussion about wanting a gui to setup network shares reminds me of the old days when the die hard web designers bragged about using a text editor rather than a software package like Dreamweaver for example. Using a text editor to design web pages did not make them cool or better, just made them feel more elite . Nothing wrong with wanting more gui stuff in LInux with a caveat. That the admin should be able to perform the same tasks in terminal if need be if the gui is mis-behaving..
The difference was, software like Dreamweaver created garbage HTML. It was the difference between people who could and people who took pride. The fact it required more skill to create a higher quality product was the point of pride. Given the bandwidth limitations of the period, it mattered.
"Let's bloat the one thing that works just fine by itself with a graphic interface but give people the option to use the one thing that works just fine in case the other we added, that we don't need, fails"
Great logic.
Now, if we we're talking about making better documentation with actual use cases and updating the man pages, then I'd be right behind you.
The thing is, just with your comment, I don't think you use any linux distro
not only if the gui is mis-behaving but also for other reasons like you want to do it with a simple ssh.
@@l30n.marin3r0 as someone that uses arch btw and prefers to interact with my machine at the terminal, the whole point of this discussion is how to broaden the userbase and adoption of linux and other open source software. The simple fact of the matter is that people (in general) DO NOT WANT TO USE THE TERMINAL as the main way of interfacing with their computer.
Technically yes, a gui is 'bloat' in the same way if i go to a burger place and they tell me they only do ketchup and mustard as toppings bc all other toppings are 'bloat' and they don't want to deal with slicing and keeping other fresh toppings. Yes, adding 'bloat' introduces more potential vectors for things to break or make them needlessly more complicated but, trying to say guis are bad because they're 'bloat', is great logic akin to calling someone stupid because they want to put bacon on their burger when ketchup and mustard are simpler and just less hassle.
the option to do something in a gui rather than at the terminal (just like wanting more than ketchup and mustard on your burger) is just that: an option. Without this option present, dont be surprised when nobody wants to come eat your burgers.
@@fanis4093 if you're sharing files over the network you would only need to set the server once, which is not really that difficult even with ftp but you could just scp over the network and you'd be fine, no need to ssh and then again, even that is easy.
Samba is even easier and it even works with iPhone without the need to download any extra apps on the phone. Haven't tried scp with an iPhone and I installed some packages on Arch that make it way easy to connect to the phone just by plugging it into the laptop.
Do you have to read? Yes
Could it be done better an easier? Also yes
We need industry standard software. Linux folks hate it so no company/professional is using Linux.
Desktop Linux targets private users and some programmers (that need very basic software).
The OS itself works fine but who is working with only the OS?
Linux is defacto standard technology to run server loads, you don't get more industry standard from that. That is why professional developers and companies use a lot Linux based operating systems, if not top of hardware, then it is used in virtual machine.
You are very wrong about working with OS. ISS astronauts ditched Windows XP and changed to Debian and obvious reason is that because back then there wasn't good connection to earth. Debian was obvious choice because it has almost every tool and documentation to do their work. That is also one of the reasons why developers use is because so much of tools are found from OS. There is plenty of industry standard tools also found from OS.
Finally someone else said it... I've been saying for years that it is great that there are so many distros of linux but that is also it's biggest weak point. There are just TOO many distros and UI's now and because of that none of them work correctly. (I guess it just takes another Bret to say it! :D )
With all due respect, who's telling you to use 600 distributions? what's the problem? You don't want to choose, use Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch or Debian. Don't limit the choices of others because you limit their freedom
@@SwiatLinuksa Wow... you so missed the point
@@Breto151 probably yes
New user. From my understanding, there are three main forks of Linux - Debian, Redhat/Fedoria and Arch. Then comes the Desktop environment. Which are too many to list. I picked Debian w/ a KDE environment.
@@rdnowlin1206 that's right ;) and few maybe 7 independent made from scratch - 4mlinux, Pclinuxos, OpenMandriva, Void, Puppy, LFS,Gentoo.. i know - SystemD free are here too but they're not for daily easy/new user..
I find a lot of documentation sucks. All to find out just do these 4 commands and you’re done. Too much fluff and not well structured.
@@StreetLethal92 gotta agree on that. It goes very technical very fast on many man pages. I was quite surprised how good some of the MacOS documentation seems to be. They’re quite well laid out and quite to the point in many cases. I suppose many Linux documentation could benefit from bit of a reworking. Like Debian. I love it and there’s so much stuff in their wikipages, but navigating through it and finding something actually usable is absolute hell. Imo that site should be burned and start from scratch
@@jothain Do you know what really really gets to me on the man pages?.. It's the way you get every single possible switch and option and possibility.. but NOWHERE is a single EXAMPLE of the command structure to show you the order or syntax... so after all that you end up guessing... I just delete the whole lot now.. save the space and the time..
@@PaulaXism Yup. I've been there. I tried some program/script that gave short list of examples and their context. It was quite useful, but I've forgot what it was called. Anyway it was something I'd like to see default on distros. I think it was something that cheat sheet in it's name. Should really try to find it again.
That's a very good point, documentation sucks.
No i agree with jay, down with repository soup.
I think that the biggest problem with Linux is the fact that there aren't very many people who ACTUALLY, COGNITIVELY recognise, that the very thing that they love the most, is imperfect.
Whenever you ask a question about a problem or an error that you encountered, they get so defensive as though you just called their baby ugly.
That's NOT the issue.
The issue is what's captured either via a copy-and-paste of the error message or, if you're not in a position to capture that, to take a picture of the monitor.
When you recount your experiences (with using Linux, where you've ran into problems), Linux fanbois would tell you that you're wrong, until you produce the receipts (pictures/screenshots) and then they are, interestingly enough, they get VERY quiet after that.
THAT is, what I think, is the biggest problem with the Linux community -- where they will ridicule, belittle, berate, etc. you, calling you all KIND of names, but the moment that you show them the picture of your monitor of the Linux kernel panic, then all of a sudden, they get very, very, very quiet from people who used to be very loud, when they were ridiculing, belittling, and berating you.
That is, what I've found, to be the biggest problem.
There are some that will actually try (or at least attempt to try) to help you figure out what went wrong.
But there are quite a number who don't/won't.
I may be stereotyping here but there seems to be a lot of of immature personalities in that bunch, judging from symptoms like the percentage of anime girl wallpapers. I may be reading this very wrong, though.
@@ArturdeSousaRocha
I dunno.
I've interacted with some "seasoned, Linux 'professionals'" and their attitude towards people who don't know what they know, don't really change all that much.
I think that this video hit the nail on the head with the question "if you're not here to help, then why are you on a forum?"
There are quite a number of people who are like that.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that kind of a response from Linux users, in the comment section of other Linux TH-cam videos.
Yes! The linux community online are major assholes most of the time. I NEVER ask for help on IRC or Reddit or anywhere anymore. I've been on Linux for 16 years and starting out on Ubuntu was great and actually that community was the friendliest almost always. Then I moved on to Debian and that community was a grumpy group to say it extremely kindly. I don't remember ever asking a question and getting a kind response and it usually ended up in me swearing at people knowing full well I would get kicked out of the IRC or whatever from the straight up rude people asking why I would come asking for help for whatever. Now when I need help I use Google Gemini or my self hosted Ollama AI.
@@markjones2349 I've been on Linux desktops since Ubuntu 8.04 and some of the communities are indeed horrible. Especially IRC. Always RTFM, Google etc. even if one is implying that has tried to search for stuff. Luckily there's one good forum that is in my native language and people are generally very helpful long time users and gather into this Ubuntu forum, even if there's like about 20% of long time users that don't use Ubuntu. Myself included.
They just think you should know like they do. I suppose many of them are on the spectrum.
@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 Don't make excuses for bad behaviour.
@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 No. They have simply forgot their learning experiences.
@@elminster8149 I’m not. I’m explaining one of the causes.
I observe two items, from a lot of videos, if you use adobe products, you can't run on Linux so linux is no good, but they don't message adobe and ask when they are going to produce a Linux version! Support is and is not a problem, depending which distribution you are using, and if you run the wrong distribution there is no support. I have to say that having been with Redhat since 1997, and now Fedora the support forum is very helpful. Everything in Linux is a file, the GUI text editors in Linux are very good and so are the BASH ones. The thing that windows users can get around is the MS have removed all of the controls, and when you have an operating system where you not only have all the controls at your disposal knowing what to do and where to do it is in itself very challenging, but no more so than going from Dos 6.22 to windows 3.0. The one problem you faced is that there are the right way to do things and the wrong way, saying that you want to do things in the GUI is in a lot of cases the wrong way and you have to accept this is not MS windows.
The big problem with all these "linux challenge" youtubers is this.. They use adobe to make their videos.. so for them not having that griftware is a show stopper.. and they are too lazy (or desperate for the money) to take a few days to learn how to use Kdenlive.. When youtube was first getting off the ground the "go to" video editing monster was another proprietary thing.. remember Sony Vegas? .. We just used Avidemux (basic cut and join) and had a nice experience with a simple easy low resource tool.
This is why these people all come to the same "it doesn't work" conclusion.. It doesn't work FOR THEM in their professional very specific use case.. For the rest of us who just want an internet browser.. video player.. email handling rig.. like 95% of the world of home users.. it's 100% fine.. It just works.. Mint with XFCE for the last couple of decades here.. very happy with it for my online computer needs.. on 12 year old hardware.
10:30 When users start asking questions in communities, it means programmers have screwed up. I agree RTFM is really annoying. Sometimes the manual is just bad, like a typical man page.
GNU even has its own help system in parallel to man -- texinfo -- that sometimes offers better info. Honestly they could just put that stuff in man pages. Except for the GNU AWK manual, that one is a beast and it just needs navigation assistance.
@@ArturdeSousaRocha GNU/Linux has historically been a server or embedded O/S which only IT people were interested in. No wonder its manuals are designed to be read by that category of people, who not only have training but are also paid to read them.
One odd thing I've noticed is interesting. There's tons of desktop UI's, but they all are absolutely horrible for touch screen devices. Hell even Wayland breaks Gnome so that you can't onscreen keyboard passwords. That's ridiculous state in this decade.
KDE works very well on touch devices, there is even a phone edition.
Loool and the steam deck??? Kde + touchscreen => no problem at all. Wtf stop to fire bullets on Linux when you don't know!
yep, you're right. But as Jay said in the video, we're in a state of transition and the Wayland people working on different protocols are absolutely aware of this(just look at the accessibility discussions on the software trackers, they're very active)
@@xritics19 it's purpose build device. Completely different thing that if you buy a touchscreen laptop and install like Fedora on it. Looks like you haven't even tried this scenario thoroughly.
Have you tried pop os? I don't have touchscreen so I can't have an opinion. Just being curious
I think the best thing to do is that we all agree to make a linux distro that is as vanilla linux as possible, and whatever that is, we support it in every other distro, so that there is a clear starting point, and from there they can enjoy the possibilities.
When it comes to gaming too much goes into setting up everything. I would argue gaming based distros have more of a place
Also, vanilla distros exist. Arch, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc... These are usually want most DIstros are based off. So if you want a basic start in Linux, start with these. Be warned though, Arch has a huge difficulty curf. So you might want to skip it
@@Hyrulean_Gamer I use Arch, but it's still different enough from Debian which is the parent of Ubuntu. What Im saying is we need to agree on a standard, and make that distro synonymous with Linux.
@@Hyrulean_Gamer
Fedora and openSuse are made for developers who develop for Red Hat or Suse environments.
Ubuntu LTS is also very enterprise stuff and it is bloated, but it is used because it is available for free.
So I do value Debian a lot when it is not some enterprise environment or user is not a developer but also want all workstation/server features. Debian has many desktops that can confuse but I believe when X11 is soon dropped, some of the desktop environments are gone too because they just don't have enough resources to refactor them to Wayland.
I use a lot Xfce on virtualized form but that is likely one that has no future. I bet for Gnome, LXQt and KDE. Gnome has best usability but LXQt is actually nice when computer is intended to run single application made with Qt.
Problem with Linux: move /home directory to 2nd drive. Why is this task a pain to execute?
The main problem as I see is that there are too many distros which I suspect leads to manufacturers dragging their feet on hardware drivers. I have resorted to Meta AI (on my phone) to get specific advice because internet searches have brought up too many variations of effectively bad (incomplete) forum advice in posts. When your phone can connect to a screen without wires easily, tablets, laptops will be in decline and desktops might only be for gamers. nb I am not a power user [Linux Mint & Puppy Linux] and I also keep my toe in the Mac OS pool. Thumbs up for the discussion!
Born on Windows.
Raised on Linux.
Educated on Mac, is my 0.02 cents and after 30 years I’ve come to realize the desktop doesn’t matter if sh|t plain just doesn’t work.
Why I called it “Open Sore” v open source.
The problem with Linux is, it's full of Linux people.
The problem with the world is that is full of people making stupid generalizations.
@@k1ry4n Every day I wake up and find that I have to deal with people... arrrrrgh!!!
We call it techsupport. NOT THE INDIAN ONE!!!!
@@k1ry4n haha... sore spot? Are you using Arch btw? :) ROTFL
true
I am 52 years old I tried Linux Foodora since the beginning of 2000. In those days we didn't know Wi-Fi and I found a problem in using my printer and accessing the Internet via Ethernet because there is no drivers for them in Linux.
After about 7 years I installed Ubuntu in my laptop and again I can not connect to the WIFI because of the driver problem.
I think Linux developers fixed a lot of these problems and I will try Linux in on anther SSD in my desktop.
I suggest people start reading The General Public License or GPL for short. This will better explain why gnu/linux will never be controlled by x entity or have a certain way of doing things. GPL exists for this particular reason. Also, people are misunderstanding of the meaning of "free". Its not what it think it means. In fact, the GPL is pretty much built on that principle.
What we need as a set interval of Linux summits, where anyobe of any distro is welcome to come and share where they are what theyve done and where theyre going.
The complaints lodged by your guest are VALID, but, you shouldn't let other people's INSULTING ATTITUDES discourage you from your goals or your preferences!
Look around and you'll find civilized individuals who will give you the best answer they know!
Sounds like there’s a lack of empathy in the linux community.
I had the exact experience you're talking about at 38:50 : trying Ubuntu and not being able to upgrade OpenOffice because it wasn't in the repo. When I asked why in the Ubuntu forum, instead of an answer I got questioned "what do you need the latest version for, what exact features are so important to you?". In general, I found the forum a genuinely unhelpful, scornful and toxic vipers den.
Sure, you can solve most Linux issues if you dedicate a weekend to it every so often, but I'd rather have a life. I've kept away from desktop Linux since first trying it and its' forums.
This, honestly, is why I am so excited for Flatpak. It's a solution that doesn't solve every problem, and I don't even know if LibreOffice (since OpenOffice is basically dead nowadays) is available as a flatpak … checked, it is! … but decoupling OS version from app version means that you can run the most current apps or, y'know, not, as you please.
Again it's not yet a perfect solution. There's a few apps I've found aren't "perfect" under flatpak and some (OpenRGB) I never got to work at all no matter what I tried. But still, it's solving a lot of that kind of problem.
I realize I'm making it sound like we just need to fix this one little thing to make Linux a good desktop OS for everybody, and I know it's not that simple. But … actually it kinda is. Fix one little problem, fix another little problem, keep fixing each little problem in turn and eventually we're there, technologically speaking.
Of course the biggest problem … is attitude. The first or second comment under this video was something to the effect of "typical windows user complaints, cliche, nothing to see here." Kinda actually NO. Sometimes yeah they're common Windows/Mac user complaints, sure, but when a longtime Linux user says that people constantly trashing devs of key projects (not even the projects, but the devs behind them) because they don't like the projects … that's not a "windows user complaint", that's a recognition of toxic BS that only a longtime Linux insider is gonna recognize. You might have a beef with a Linux developer or even a group of them (sometimes they're toxic too), but if you don't like something about a project-say that OpenRGB saves its profiles in a binary format-going off on CalcProgrammer isn't going to help that, is it?
IDK, I guess I'm all over the place in this comment, sorry. 🙂
It's mostly problems everyone talks about, but there are some decent insights into problems that aren't mentioned much
"installing an OS on a refrigerator" is a great paradigm shift I hadn't really considered before. I "knew" that most people don't consider their OS, but it's hard to really duplicate that feeling or sympathize. I felt if you use any two devices with different OS: Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS, ChromeOS, heck even Blackberry/flip-phone era or game consoles, you'd consider how you like to interact with devices. Not everybody has access to multiple devices or upgrades, but considering how people felt about Windows 7 to 8 to 10, it seemed like the effect should have been wider when including other interfaces as comparison.
If you see someone else on a forum giving an unhelpful "RTFM" to someone asking a question, here's a similarly short response to give them: ATFQ - "Answer The Fucking Question!"
I switched from windows to Linux about 1 year ago. I had problems with hardware with many different distros (Ubuntu, Debian, SuSE, etc). I finally installed Manjaro and it worked with ALL my hardware. So, I have been running Manjaro KDE and now I barely touch my windows.
It's not just the distro, it can also be the Desktop Environment. The only major hardware issue I had was it randomly not registering the Nvidia drivers upon booting, which turned out to be a XFCE issue (fortunately the folk at Linux Mint forums were very helpful)
How is manufacturers not making drivers for Linux a Linux problem?
Raid Owl? You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel Jay.
Agreed
I think one thing Microsoft did early on was too make Windows pretty easy to use for beginners.
Sure there is stuff you can dig into the weeds on, but most folks don't need to.
Linux took the path of powerful and robust, but not easy to get into, however extremely customizable
I am new to Linux but, I don't know WHERE the RUMOR that Linux will work on ALL HARDWARE - started, or by who.
Experts have been saying for years that you first have to get your Linux box 100% compatible with the OS before you proceed.
Therefore, this means that a certain SUBSET of hardware available will work with Linux, and not almost everything ,as is the case with Windows!
It's true in a sense - the Linux kernel and base utilities are indeed flexible enough to run ON a variety of hardware, from a simple SBC to a super-computer. This isn't identical though to supporting every piece of peripheral hardware you can find out there.
That's because of the kernel. For the latest hardware you need the latest kernel, but even that's not a guarantee it will work with the latest hardware. I use a refurbished Dell optiplex mini which has older hardware and thus works great with Linux.
@@alexchudnovsky1972 Tuxedo computers from Germany, builds various systems that are compatible with Linux. This suggests that you can put together your own system from the latest and the greatest to work with Linux, fully and properly.
It's amazing how far Linux has come. I remember first using it in the late 90s, Red Hat 5.2 at the time. Hardware support was nearly nonexistent unless you had old vanilla hardware. If you bought the latest sound card for instance, thinking it would work was a pipe dream. It could've been literally a couple years before it was supported.
Great conversation. Thanks for filming this. I'm definitely not a Linux noob, but you still put words to issues I couldn't define nearly as well
I like LInux, but I love FreeBSD/OpenBSD.
Why?
This is a really great conversation. You guys really tackled some important stuff about linux adoption.
RTFM? *Write* TFM, *publish* TFM (in print or complete downloadable format like pdf), *link* to TFM. Even then, there are people who don't do well w/ manuals, but there is a paucity of assembled, accessible, indexed documentation.
Jay says that we should celebrate differences, and that criticizing other choices is a negative thing that hinders the advancement of Linux as a community, while at the same time saying that all distributions should stop packaging certain packages and that this is up to other formats? The question is, if someone sees value in a certain format, for any application, and has enough resources, why should they stop packaging it? Isn't this difference of opinion what makes the community even stronger?
In my opinion, we are not communists or socialists, or anything like that, so if it is free software, it is free software, we will collaborate as far as our differences allow us, without needing to preach that a certain option should die, for certain cases, in favor of the other, this type of understanding will weaken our creative capacity as a community and introduce possibilities for the creation of format monopolies. Yes, different options have high costs, introduce fragmentation, etc., but that is exactly the price paid for the power of freedom of choice.
People can be highly opinionated, but there is an increasingly growing problem of people who only talk to their phones and don't interact with other people don't know what to say and a phrase I like "It's not what you say it's the way that you say it". RTFM is not a lot of help, and Focus is also just a waste of time. If you don't have anything meaningful to say, don't say anything.
I bet you're a lot of fun on Reddit!
RTFM is as old as Linux, if not older. There was always a percentage of unsocialized nerds in the tech world.
@@ArturdeSousaRocha And that includes Linux, I believe that there are at lease 4 good ones for every bad one, you just have to find them.
I personally love Linux for the fact that it exists and that it is a viable alternative to Windows
That said, and as much as I would love to move off Windows entirely, I just can't seem to find a viable path on Linux, so that I can effectively move-off Windows... :(
- of this, I have tried so many times over the years, over and over again, and with much vigor, only to come crawling back to Windows - not by choice! hell no, but rather, that I was unable to sustain a suitable level of productivity on the Linux platform to make it viable
That being said, and based on my own experience, I believe the missing element needed to propel Linux into Windows user territory, is that of a good VM strategy, so that Windows users can continue to work with whatever software is tying them down at the time, and without having to compromise on productivity as a result of the change.
Have you not heard of Proxmox then?
39:57 This is my biggest annoyance with non-rolling distros and the reason I don't care for the snap haters. The stability excuse is just that, an excuse. Installing the latest GIMP, Go or Python on Windows or Mac is trivial. On Linux, each of these needs a different approach, usually invasive to the OS.
True, want the latest and greatest, use a rolling release. I don't.
A lot of the problems could be solved by simply using kde. Why kde is not the standard for all new user friendly distros is completely beyond me.
because kde runs like shit sometimes
the same with gnome
the same with hyprland and i think thats their point here
there are so many options that have differing outcomes depending on hardware. I can have a laptop at home that runs on kde fine, smooth sails then run the same setup on a different laptop at the office and it will be a stuttering bucket of shit that breaks and causes all sorts of havoc
Using KDE will solve lacking professional software support issue?
The issues your both talking about with software versions and finding them, updating them etc applies to docker as well. Windows installers for all their issues come as one packages easy to get and install file... Linux and docker often don't, especially if there's something that needs to be configured
I switched to Linux when Windows 7 was being phased out and my experience has been much better than these two presenters make it to be. According to my experience Linux wins on every metric. I am using a computer from 2011 that was underspecced even then. I am running ubuntu server with openbox and I have a pro license for free and I am getting updates till 2034! The freedom is endless. I can even choose which kind of windows are transparent or how round the corners are. It's you who decides how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole. On windows I really never learned anything about how my computer worked.
Linux wins in SOME metrics.
Gaming support is still bad; Everything is emulated through Proton. MS office suite not available, adobe products not available. There are no true open source alternative to these softwares.
Proprietary driver installation is a pain in a lot of distros (for example, installing nvidia driver in fedora).
Customization doesn't mean shit if the necessary softwares aren't available.
@@Heartsbane055 adobe products not available.. isn't that a big plus?.. ms spyware (sorry.. I think they call it "office" now) products not available.. yet another big plus.. and WHO is going to be "gaming" on a 2011 underpowered computer?.. I have a beast of a rig from 2012 .. old 3 gig quad extreme.. and I'm not no way trying to play anything on it.. because it does not have the instruction set in the processor for anything made after around 2018..
not everybody is a brain dead "gamer"..
@@PaulaXism adobe products, MS office suite being available is a huge plus. Those are industry standard setting softwares. Necessary for professional work.
Most Gamer's PCs are modern and powerful enough that they can run windows without thinking twice.
I started my transition to Linux during the Windows Vista era, and went all-in around the time Ubuntu 12.04 LTS was released. Things were pretty rough at first - lots of broken drivers for fairly common hardware. Things are definitely a lot better now, with everything generally "just working" out of the box; but if you need a specific Windows-only application, you're still kind of stuck.
@@Heartsbane055
"Gaming support is still bad; Everything is emulated through Proton"
It is not OS gaming support. Reason is game developers has skill issues to build native application.
"MS office suite not available, adobe products not available."
MS Office works fine through browser. Adobe products are not available.
"Proprietary driver installation is a pain in a lot of distros (for example, installing nvidia driver in fedora)."
Back to basics, anything rolling release or something short lived that is upgraded twice a year like Fedora, is not suitable to run natively 3rd party binaries. Also nVidia has some issues in their drivers but as far as I know, they are addressing on them so installation and maintenance should be run very soon less complex on next OS major releases.
My experience with Linux communities has been positive.
Jay I know you said you're not a presenter guy but honestly I'd pay real cash moneys to attend a seminar with you up front 😊
Yep, people dont like change. I think a lot of people dont do the research they need to make the change. IE. How to run the terminal, how to optimize their distro, etc.
When i made the change from windows, i tried to make it a point to utilize the terminal over gui. Granted there were times i tapped and used the gui.
Another thing i've found. People dont like variety for some reason. They get overwhelmed from the choices. Whether its choosing a distro or personalization of kde.
Myself, i love variety. I dove right in doing kde and loved the personalization. I think ill try my second distro with arch.
Anyway have fun and i always enjoy the content.
@@az_tinkerer_gamer tbh many people make "noobs" believe Linux is very easy to approach, which isn't true at all imo. Let's be real that virtually everyone comes from Windows and stuff is done vastly different in Linux. Drives are handled very differently. Heck I still don't remember all the system related file structures on Linux and I've been using it for decades. I certainly don't mean Windows is simple, far from it, but I also stumble completely false statements in Linux forums about Windows. But if coming from Windows with issues to achieve some bliss from Linux, well it's going to be a rough ride in the start. I'm using virtually all OS's out of curiosity. Windows, Linux, Android and now more recently MacOS and iOS. They all have their pros and cons, but like I haven't crashed Windows in... Decades and yet some people claim it's unusable in some way. Just like I was under impression MacOS is some kind of an holy grail of OS's just to find in very beginning of my introduction to it that it has the worst ever window management out-of-box since like Windows 95. There's good stuff in it too, like I mentioned all have those pros and cons. But anyway I digress. If one has bit lacking base and does the switch to any OS, it's going to be quite difficult. Change needs that open-minded vision. Unfortunately most are displeased in thing X and try to go into another platform likely expecting it to be almost same, but that it just works. Many people have been quite confused in ie. Ubuntu forum where I'm really active when I've occasionally stated based on users needs that imo you might want to actually stick to Windows and I can try to help with your issue. There's been way too many comments about people ramming their Windows installation with Ubuntu and now user is wondering how they can use their diabetes tracking software made for Windows and at same post ask like btw how do I run my Autodesk installation with copyright USB dongle and it kinda breaks my heart to tell some of these that unfortunately you've been told quite rose tinted things about changing OS. Like gaming. Yes it's gotten a s ton easier on Linux, but I'd still urge one to use Windows. However if one uses like Firefox and like old outlook etc. on their dated hardware with Windows that has began to feel slow, using software that's available for virtually any OS. By all means put that Linux Mint out there and see if it works for you. People just shouldn't give false expectations to anyone. Especially to users that aren't tech savvy
@@jothain as clint eastwood said, "a mans gotta know his limitation." Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. Try different distros, as some are preconfigured out of the box. I know elitists would scoff at that. But a lot of new people want that sort of thing. I started rather recently down the linux hole on nobara. Im more hardware savvy than software. Figured itd be quick to get me up and running. Granted i did a ton of research and ive been rather happy. I will probably install arch the next couple days, as i do like to tinker. I have a ventoy usb made up and multiple drives to play with lol.
I'm sorry, but HP makes "CRAP!" So why do people buy their STUFF? It's cheap! 👎👎 You can see Bret doesn't want to switch or try later! He's not open about this! Snap packages are awful! At 42:00, ABSOLUTELY Jay!
Snaps are fine. I most people just like to crap on Ubuntu because they think it gives them "street cred".
@@tubeDude48 You're crazy. HP makes a lot of great hardware and it lasts forever. Their consumer Pavilion and Envy lines are so so, but their elite and prodesk stuff is excellent.
@@wojtek-33 I like the Proliant servers.. and the Z-numbers workstations.. solid and quiet. Not so keen on anything later than G6/7 tho as they have gone "you need an account with us before we will refuse to let you download critical bios/firmware updates for your no longer supported hardware"
HP Printers are trash. My Omen gaming laptop has been a champ so far.
@@wojtek-33 only displays that fail constantly at work are HP's models. Also even their printers are horrible trash. I have some office jet model that prints blank "cleaning" pages and counts those as document pages. The most furiating device I've likely ever used. Also most laptops they make are junk.
That KDE 4.0 thing... I think their mindset is that their version doesn't say anything that it is ready for production. Instead what is production ready is that is passed QA of OS provider. Like, is it found way to Debian stable. It wasn't 4.0. It was 4.4.5. There are several stages how QA is done. It is same in Windows. Origin of code is developer machine, they push them to internal testing, after internal testing it ends up to Windows insider. And it takes time to get it from there to production.
So, there is freedom to choose OS but it is important realize that example Fedora is close to Windows insider while Red Hat Enterprise is the production version. Same thing openSuse vs Suse Enterprise. Rolling releases are even more bleeding edge than those, they are close to minefield. Don't expect to have stuff that is not made to production in laptop found from store shelf.
Those "standard distros" do exist. They are those who stand their own and made for production. There are several of them focusing on different areas. Then there are derivates of them when some people are not satisfied and want to change new theme or something. Linux indeed work, but when talking OS you should specify what OS you are talking.
Also it is not that uncommon to wait next OS release to get software updated. I do agree that it can make sense if applications are taken out from repository that offers platform. However it is harder to define what belongs to "platform". I think it is something that can be kept stable in way that others can build something depending on that. Most upper layers in software stack are only dependent on "platform" so these can in separate repository, and lower level is often very much standard. Hard to draw line here because some applications do have intefaces for plugins, so application can be also part of platform. Example GIMP. Do you want to GIMP to be in application repository and when it is updated it can break some business critical plugin?
LibreOffice can of course used to write native ODF documents. This kind of productivity suite of course need to be standardized in organization because they all handle files differently, especially if it is not native to software. That is why Google suite and MS Office works from browser.
I saw a post on reddit about a guy ranting about how 'new' users coming over from windows are lazy and won't rtfm and how tired he is of answering noob questions. I told him, people like him are the reason why linux doesn't get big. He sees new users as a problem, I see new users as an absolute win. If more people keep coming over, things will only get better for the linux community. device manufacturers will start building drivers, software companies will start shipping their software with linux support. Please people, help new users. Have some patience. We all know how much of a terminal genius you are and how you were banging out shell script inside your mom's womb. No need to flex that. No need to scare away new users. by doing that, you are harming the community and blocking the entry. Do not freaking gatekeep.
Good point regarding linux projects having a hard time washing off the stink. Manjaro's reputation is still suffering from that SSL screwup where they asked users to turn back the clock and date on their PC's to get access to their site until they fixed the issue.
I wonder if PopOS will ever get over the Linus Tech Tips "installing Steam uninstalls your Desktop Environment" situation!
It's weird that Brett encountered "oh, you need a GUI for that??" if he was hanging out in Linux Mint spaces … they kinda frown upon that sort of behavior. Unfortunately AFAIK there is NOT a GUI for that even on Mint, yet, but y'know … that could exist. It should exist. But definitely that "RTFM" attitude has been a problem since 1997.
I like the direction of smallish immutable distributions with containerized apps is the direction for the end-user desktop. It's probably not the ultimate solution for everyone, but it's a good default-sane defaults is what Linux really needs to strive for.
I think an update to this video in a year or two would benefit from collection actionable points from this one, such as:
Hardware support. Is there either a better chance Stuff Will Work or at least you're able to determine in advance what will and what won't? (Recent changes with Nvidia might give a couple free points on that one already!)
Network config and sharing configuration: Can this be done from a GUI or at least without learning how to write config files yet? I'd look at basic setup for wired and wireless, personal firewall because you need one, and file sharing. (Printer sharing? IDK.)
Software availability: Can you get the stuff you want? Like do you know where to get it from and can you get a reasonably recent version? How do you know where to get it from and what's involved. Pick several test apps.
Stuff like that. And put those points out there somewhere soon so that people can look at this list of pain points and maybe address them. And maybe pick a few distributions to test out? Let's give them real report cards. Observable, measurable, actionable. I think this sounds like an interesting project, honestly! Wouldn't mind contributing to it. I wouldn't mind testing stuff to see how it fares either.
I'll throw in one of my own right now: Input devices. Keyboards, mice, … and game controllers. Wired probably works, but what about wireless? Do any special features work? What if the wireless is BLUETOOTH, how stable is it? And I'm including game controllers because yes, Linux gaming is becoming more of a serious thing. Oh, and for wireless devices … can you do things like read battery levels? If there are settings for the device, what works? (Perhaps that gets into a hardware database a little?)
One important thing that is wrong with Linux is accessibility for people with visual disabilities. Sure, there's Orca screen reader, but for those who just want a magnifier, the state of Linux magnification is not that great, especially when it comes to keyboard/insertion point tracking. If you do not have visual disability (unfortunately, I do and I have to move my mouse as I type), I cannot see a reason why people should try Linux but only if they do proper planning and finding what software works best for them. I believe the assistive technology APIs do not get enabled even in Cinnamon. Plus, when it comes to using a magnifier in games such as The Talos Principle 2, Cinnamon by default disables compositing and disabling compositing disables magnification.
I believe your specific magnifier problem should be gone when Cinnamon switches to Wayland because the compositor won't get disabled anymore with games there but this is also the kind of feedback the linux desktop world needs to hear more about. Especially now that accessibility is one of the main points of focus for Wayland development.
The issue is Linux isn't at parity with Windows 7. Okay, maybe Windows 7, but they are so far behind by the time they get to Windows 10/11 level, we'll be computing with our minds. Flying cars or something.
In regards to management GUIs and APIs, remote desktop, shell scripting, desktop rendering etc., Linux is not even at parity with WindowsXP. This might sound odd, but if you look closely, it's true. The regular web browsing user might not notice, but anyone who's deep into the technicals of Windows and what you can do with it, will not find something like a system event viewer or user management application which works the same on any distribution. There also is BASH only, it's kind of 30+ years old, it just does not compare to Powershell at any level.
File managers on Linux also just look nice, but they don't do much, there is no professional file manager like Directory Opus on Linux, which is 25+ years ahead of Dolphin, Nemo, Thunar and all the others combined. Linux might work for hobbyists, mom and dad and maybe the student, but unfortunately it fails when it comes to highly professional work (like there is no UNC path support on Linux etc.).
I still encourage people to make the switch, the more people make use of Linux, the more companies are going to release software and drivers for it.
Reality is that Windows 10 solved maintenance issues on Windows that were solved 7 years before on Ubuntu 8.04 LTS. It was somewhere 2022 when Windows got SSH so it was decades behind on basic features. Windows still lacks virtual desktops.
Another thing is that Home and Professional versions of Windows are not stable on lowlevel. That requires Windows Iot Enterprise. So Windows dropped that feature on Windows 10.
@@ytbone9430
Windows system event viewer doesn't work same way on macOS. Every distribution is own operating system, they don't need to work same way unless it is standardized.
Powershell is not good as Bash because Powershell doesn't work like IEEE Std 1003.1. Bash instead is compatible with industry standards and that is why there are no sane professional developers who make anything dependent on Powershell.
UNC path are not standard so there are no real professionals who use them. Standard way is to use URI and URL. You can check from this TH-cam channel address that it is not UNC or other turd that are not used by professionals.
I stopped using LR, I now use DarkTable on Linux Mint.
I am full time Linux for many years.
You really just said in the same breath: don't criticize the good people making Wayland and then how horrible it is to rush things out that are incomplete and break things. I say this as someone that does not give a flying &#&! whether X11 or Wayland or *insert the next great thing here* is in charge of displaying things to the screen as long as it works, but how can you exist with such radical dichotomy in your mind? That being said, the entire desktop environment thing with Linux is a nightmare of epic proportions. That there exists a situation where removing solitaire can landslide into the entire desktop being removed is still one of the most mind blowing things you couldn't possibly predict, especially on a platform that, as you say, toots its own horn about how much choice you have.
I wish the linux hardware vendor space in the US had more players and was more competitive. I like getting preinstalled linux boxes, but there are a tiny number of vendors and the main one limits what linux distro you can choose. Shopping for linux preinstalled at Dell or Lenovo is like being in a Kafka novel.
I like this kind of video, but I often feel that some of the underlying assumptions are wrong. Linux as such is not an objective in itself. It is of little use if you simply pass on your dependence from e.g. Microsoft to e.g. Google, as you have to do, for example, if you want to use the chromebook. Both are commercially oriented companies that put their own interests first, rather than the users' benefit. For me, Linux is a way to get back my freedom. I, for example, like decide on my own when I have to make an update, simply because I also have to live with the consequences and Microsoft can not know when the right time has come. It is only natural that achieving this freedom also involves a certain amount of effort. On the one hand, because you have to remember to make this update yourself, on the other hand because an update may not be sufficiently tested on the system you are using and could therefore lead to errors. What I find so great about Linux is how you can deal with this problem in a systemized way. For example, it is good to learn how to create a snapshot before an update so that you can easily go back if necessary. And it is even better when you set up the system to do so every time you do an update automatically. I like the freedom of being able to make these decisions and adjust everything to my own liking.
Also, another point, Linux does not have to prove itself, because Linux is not a replacement for Windows, but an alternative.As with any alternative, there are pros and cons to weigh up and different users will come to different decisions. We as the Linux community should not put so much emphasis on why some people do not switch to Linux, simply because it is not our job to promote Linux. If someone is not prepared to change their system, then that's just the way it is and not a real problem. Let's work on making Linux better for what we like about Linux. The rest will take care of itself.
I agree, I'm new to linux, but I already fall in love with it, I use linux since 2021, because windows run slow in my low specs acer laptop that's why I switched to linux. I love it because its very modular OS, fast, low usage on resources, and very customizable. Linux works well if you are dedicated and have passion to learn it
Thank You! I've been using Linux for 30 years and I'm still looking for better GUI interfaces. This is because my life is too loaded down with trades to memoize or look up every linux command and how to script them. Software is really just a small part of my life though I still have a home lab with a server and 10 Gb fiber back bone. The command line works for me, and I've used it with big iron as a backbone telecom hub tech. So I'm a newbie still though I started with tubes. analog computers and core memory. Linux would be so much better if more focus was put on tools like Webmin. Standardized dialogs present new uses with options to control the deep functionality to the OS offers. I use Linux every day. The team, group and individual contributors have and are making the world better for everyone - Thank You All
When I started using Linux (it was Ubuntu 16.04) I had been a Windows user. Instead of breaking with Windows immediately, I felt I had to use Windows for various things. I would use a music processor (Mozart) to write or transcribe music for my use at the pipe organ. I also used a template builder to build templates for my Joomla websites without having to learn the process and software necessary to build them from scratch. After a few years, though, I learned to use Sibelius for the music, and learned to use and modify templates that I could download from the Internet.
My Windows computer is used, now, for playing games while I'm listening to podcasts on Rhythm Box in my linux computer. That way I can have the games muted so my podcast listening wouldn't be interrupted by the infernal advertisements on the Windows games.
I share the confusion over aversion to gui tools. When I first tried linux, I got my hands on a Mandrake install cd (in 2004, if I remember correctly) which was known for its "wizards". I ran into all sorts of hardware issues, but it actually ran extremely stable which was quite the contrast with Windows ME (which I was trying to replace). Over the years, I kept going back to Suse (Novell, Opensuse, whatever) partly due to Yast. It may be a silly acronym, but it does have tools for most things you want to do. If you are comfortable with the terminal, it may be easier and faster, but the gui is there for people that are either new or simply don't care to use the terminal at all. It isn't as though the terminal will go away or quit working if good gui tools exist.
Linux is often like Nissan Skyline. It’s great if you know what you’re doing, but for most people, VW Passat is much better choice.
You point out the right topics. I have same experience with linux, windows and os-x as well. I think Linux is still a system for experts. We have now countless distros in the world. Every distro can be seen as a different OS, from the position of a user that expects a tested product that meets all of hies requirements. In the backend world linux is much more common, as we have administrators that work every day with the odds of OSses ... They have developed best practices for themselfs and the requirements they have - they earn money with it. An end user has no clear requirement, except that "it should work" - and he pays money for it. So many people use server hosted apps in their iPhones, iPads, Android devices an so forth. They browse in internet, write emails, chat with whatsapp and the like . That works fine for them. A linux system that does just this for them, is good. But do not let them install something on that system. You would not want to do this , i.e. , for your car ....
If I had more spare time and wasn’t homeless, I would tinker with desktop-Linux
But Chromebook meets all my needs
I feel much of the Linux apps are mediocre in 2024
Desktop Linux will be better in 2025, but it still won’t meet the needs of the older consumer and the children
@@CrustyAbsconder I don’t know. Imo Linux Mint/LMDE is virtually perfect for average user. It reminds quite a lot of mainstream, meaning Windows desktop and has most of the apps and features many need. Maybe not perfect, but imo very close to it.
Wow, didn't even know linux was still around. Had it once, just didn't see a reason to keep it, and that was like 15 or 20 years ago.
I think it is important to just identify what you need to do and then see if you are able to switch. If the problems are deal-breakers then maybe it is not time to switch. It is good to try the virtual machines or maybe a different machine for a while with linux. Within linux, for a long time I didn't use wayland because certain games just weren't working with my NVidia card... then I waited until the 550 drivers came out it started working. Now I use wayland on my desktop, so far so good. On my surface go I still need X because skype won't screenshare on wayland yet.
Don't stress over stuff not working, just use what OS you need to and maybe in the future the holes will be fixed with people addressing the shortcomings. As far as community, I would say that the internet can be toxic in general a lot of times, but I don't know a solution for that other than to look in different places.
Hmm. I'm 7 years into 'trying' Ubuntu. Now I'm on Fedora. Yes, some hardware won't work. Some hardware doesn't work on Windows or Mac either. It's just most hardware vendors have ignored Linux. So use Linux, and they won't be able to ignore it. smh
Great Video!
I'd love more of these podcast type videos!
I mainly use windows, but i have a linux machine on the cloud i can log on to. No extra space on my pc, and i can still use linux when needed
The kinda annoying thing to me was all this talk about how there are too many different distributions of Linux, only to then disagree with design choices of the Linux they have used. If there was only 1 Linux, they'd be be stuck with those designs. At least now they can find a different distro that has people agreeing with their ideas.
But I guess what they mean is "There should just be 1 good Linux, and good means all of my opinions on how to do things."
Nice discussion anyway though, just cool to see what different people think.
Such an interesting conversation: I can definitely relate with some of the problems with switching, especially moving away from known procedures and software. But with the growing compatibility of games on linux and AMD attitude towards open source, I think switching now it's relatively easier for gamers and general users. Plus, most work now is really browser based, until you need a specific closed source software that won't run on linux.
Flatpaks are the default universal package for me now.
I live for the rnd experience, so linux was an inevitable choice form me, having the legendary jay around is also a god send.
I don't think you can do a proper Linux trial on Mac hardware, frankly. Try it out for 30 days on hardware that isn't so proprietary up the wazoo like Mac is, then report back. Apple purposefully makes their hardware so that only their software and drivers work on it. To me, trying out Linux on that is not creating an even playing field. But that's just my opinion.
There are so many abandon projects in linux how can I be sure that if I move my business processes to a native linux app that it will be supported? Devs are so fickle now at the first chance they are on to a SAAS solution which is always in your pockets with fees. For that experience we have MS.
45 drives = too expensive for home server. End of story.
"People don't like change" which is true, but Micro$oft keeps changing Windows, if you were used to Windows 7, good luck finding things in Windows 11. And now Micro$oft is apparently doing away with Control Panel? As to the hardware compatibility, I have had great luck with DIY machines, and with Dell's Enterprise systems, Optiplex, Latitude, and Precision, while not so much with the consumer class machines from Dell and HP. And while some things didn't work, or required some special considerations, my Mid 2014 MacBook Pro spent much more time in Linux than in Mac OS. Never got the camera to work, and to get external ethernet ports to work, they had to be plugged in when I booted Linux ( They worked fine any time in Mac OS. ) I use my Dell Latitude laptops all the time, all on Linux Mint these days, but I have run different flavors of Ubuntu on them in the past, these are E7440's and E7470 ( not newer, because they have a FIXED amount of RAM from the factory, all soldered on. ) I also used E6540's previously, but those were damaged from heat and smoke when I had a house fire.
If you're into Adobe, Linux isn't going to work for you. At this point I feel this is a known failing use-case we see repeatedly from youtubers.
It would be nice to see someone do an "enterprise office" thing. It doesn't have to be all on-prem & self-hosted, but can we do linux as an enterprise desktop?
I think people should value freedom over convenience. Otherwise, they will end up switching to another proprietary OS, even if it includes the Linux kernel. Of course, convenience is important, but I wouldn't invest the efforts in users who disregard their own freedom.
27:00 Thats the issue right there. Windows & Mac are just what people know. Just like Android and iPhone. Its sad to say, but it'll take a tremendously long time for what we'd like Linux to truly become especially where its at now. Where I see Linux excelling is when M$ or Mac truly start becoming a monopoly or when our privacy truly starts getting worse than it already is and using Linux is and STILL is the only way to minimize the impact of our privacy. It won't get rid of it as much as one would like as long you use the internet you're screwed. Sure there are ways around it, but only far in few will go through those steps.
If you use Lightroom, as i do, then i just qwouldnt have bothered even trying moving to Linux, ive not found anything as good or easy to use on Linux, so i still use windows for that
The problem with programmers is that they often write code just to write code, no matter how useless it is. So, sometimes, they need to be forced to see reality.
That latter part doesn't always work. Speaking from observation.
The Year of the Linux Desk-Flop?
I think Brett is using wrong platform to do his work. Why would you use Photoshop on Linux! Weird. So, it is not a Linux failure rather than Brett's ask.
I have a Linux Ubuntu desktop running on Dell XPS, and Wifi, multiple monitors work fine.
11:00 If its so annoying to respond to questions over and over maybe address that issue and make it more user friendly.
If you have seen a question asked so many times your sick of it , that's a clue that its a issue that needs to be solved.
And i hear him on adding things you can normally do with a few clicks or sometimes ZERO clicks in windows.
After this happens to many times your just driving users back to the open arms of windows.
And in the future when someone asks those people windows vs Linux they are then the users that will laugh and call Linux a total joke and a waste of time and guess what.. the community caused that.
35:00 Package management - 100% on this everything here this is a WALL for new years. and sometimes your distro is just not setup for it to work out of the box with Years and years old procedures that don't even work anymore for certain things its a Rabbit hole of despair imho for new users had so many co-workers and friends say all of this to me, and they give up.
@railowl is correct. Creating a fixed link to a NAS share, did put me into a jungle of commands, and was not able to that except,. exce[t for a not passworded NFS share. But not SMB.
I got it running, but had to run the gazillion of commands every day.
Second item, I rely on Microsoft Exchange. Having an MAPI mailbox is impossible even to test out. It either did not work out, or a add for a mailpackage costs money. But I could test. But the test version was revoked half a second after installation. As the trial time was over by 2 monthes earlier.
I had given up and went back to Windows 11.
And if you ask somewhere for help, the standard answer is: Why use MAPI? That is crap, it is Mickeysoft. Use IMAP. I know it excists. But MAPI does do a bit more/different then IMAP, like addressbooks, send mail, notes, calendars etc.
By the way, I started with DOS 3.21. Build batchfiles myself. Got it all working. Linux feels a bit like that. You have a gui, but as soon as you want something, you go back to the command prompt.
Learn Linux, I am a fan of your channel. This interview is a L for your channel. The interviewee was not clear why he hates Linux. I am not Linux fanboy and there are lot issues with drivers, hardware, etc. Installing a Linux distro requires careful thought. And 22 days of testing is not enough!
Please get knowledgeable guests.
The point was to have open conversation between users with different levels of expertise. That's how you grow.
Make connecting to network resources, Linux or Win., easier via the GUI in desktop. And vice versa. Terminal free sharing and connecting to resources on the network. Active Directory, too. I have fewer problems connecting to and from Ubuntu Server* than with Desktop Linux.
The future of Linux is Installation (up & running), integration (in current enviros.), and migration to a full-on Linux enviro. (IIM). Linux devs. MUST start thinking of users in the context of IIM.
Linux must move beyond adolescence to maturity.
*Post No Distro. Bills.
in Linux we trust, nothing more
This feedback is actually promising. I thought the main pain point would be the UI. But hardware issues are solvable with vendor buy-in. Ditto software support. The lesson I learnt is don't try it on new hardware. It runs great on slightly older stuff anyway.
@@racitup4114 But here lies one quite big issue. Insane amount of hardware these days are laptops that can have bizarre solutions. On desktops this is easier to remedy.
@@jothain Back in the day a lot of Unix was like that too.. Try something like Solaris if your network card failed and you had to put in a random one in an emergency and it was "unsupported".. Enter "digging around the obscure unix source code repositories and compiling strange possible drivers that may or may not work as advertised".. great fun with a boss shouting at you about the website being down at 30 minutes to office closing on a Friday afternoon...
I also hate repos. Thank you for this insight.
gimp and darkroom are better than ps and lightroom at this point. You can mount network drive through gui on some desktops.
Gimp - for real? I'd like to see your case for what makes such a user hostile program better than other photo editors.
@@RusselsPairOfDucks For all photo editing, ps is bloated garbage for a long time. There's two people who complain about gimp, they have not used it for years and did not spend much time, or else they are trying to draw in it. If you want to draw there's also great open source programs now. PS is not very good at drawing either but is better than that I guess. I use zbrush for drawing but that is overkill compared to what people are looking for in most cases.
The Steam Deck seems like it's increasing the marketshare for linux and catching on with casual gamers, which could make compatibility more enticing for game developers. I want to switch to linux, especially when Windows 10 stops getting updates, but Destiny has anti-cheat, so that's only available on windows and proton doesn't matter. No, online streaming is not sufficient. Considering getting an old xps 13 or a thinkpad carbox x1 for PopOS for everything besides gaming. Worried that he said the xps 15 didn't have great compatibility.
I think modern CRM and ERP software as well as Stuff like Microsoft 365 Dynamics family, is leaving Linux behind, its also making a crap ton of money in massive corporate subscriptions for Microsoft, Salesforce, SAP etc. It has to be a lock out for company laptop OS choice in the same way as creative professionals needing Adobe products.
Actually not, CRM and ERP usually run on Linux. Some old legacy junk that require installation possible may not work but almost all runs through browser.