Dolby Atmos - Should You Wait
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Atmos will never be mainstream for a public that listens on buds and phones. This is simply the industry taking control back for the big boys and squeezing out the creators. Atmos folded down to stereo is stereo. Don't believe them when they say it sounds better than stereo. It can't. Listen, Atmos is nothing new. Just a bigger surround. Its not industry changing, sound changing, music changing or anything else. A shit song is still a shit song, and a great bootleg is killer. Quad didn't work for them. Surround is cool if you sit in the middle. Atmos is a waste of money. And the "spatial" algos they put on our devices sound like smeared crap. Just saying it plain is all.
Well said mate.
@@angermanagementstudios Love the name of your studio!
@@TroubadourMusic Thanks man!
True. In the real world you can be happy if people still have a stereo system. In many homes it will fail because a system with more than 2 speakers is simply not wife compatible. You don't even want to know how many of my friends have to be content with a mono Bluetooth speaker.
Exactly my feelings - nailed it! Literally no one asked for Atmos. We have two ears - we listen to the world in stereo, it's as simple as that.
I love your pragmatism, Barry. Your experienced take on this stuff is very much appreciated! I’m an old dog too, but this time, I think I want to be one of the first ones on my block to take the step up, primarily to get the learning curve out of the way. There was a time when I was proud to say I’m only an analog guy”-and it did not fare well for me. I found out the hard way, that you’re either making dust, or eating dust- and I don’t want to eat dust anymore, lol.
Go do it brother!
it's perfect timing because right now when Apple Music and Spotify are being bombarded (not exaggerating) by UMG with shitloads of copyright claims following wave of AI-generated music (using AI tools to determine "another AI" "stole" parts of copyrighted music), music industry has never been so close to collapse as it is this year :D
Great content as always, Barry 🎶
I’m not investing any more money in speakers, cabling and everything else that comes with atmos. Fuck it. It infuriates me to even think about spending more money on my studio. I finally have mine to where I want it after all these years of hard work.
It’s already a terrible business model as is for studio owners and musicians. Just think, all the money we spend on hardware, software, instruments and gear. And at the end of the day the artist makes a fraction of a penny for a steam of their song. Not even a cent for a play on Spotify etc. something has to change.
Colt Capperrune said the top head of Warner Chappell in Nashville (Guy Moot) communicated to all management and staff that Apple requires Atmos. He claims it was an “inside baseball” conversation, which makes it sound dirty, although they’re denying Colts claim they communicated that message. In the same video Colt did say Sweetwater helped him get into an Atmos class in exchange for promoting that Sweetwater has Atmos studios. I don’t think any full-time/pro folks took his click bait seriously. We all know Atmos is coming and the listener experience will vary across different headphone, soundbars, bluetooth speakers, cars, with a varying degree of experience where some will be noticeable Atmos mixes while others are splitting hairs compared to stereo given the speaker setup. As Andrew Schepps said, labels want an Atmos mix on a stereo budget.
I’m ready to get everyone in a room and do a new video on the topic… One of my clients management teams is who informed me. They didn’t say it came from Guy directly, but said it came from someone high up at Warner Chappell. I then reached out to two other A list mixers, both of them told me it’s completely unofficial, but definitely what is happening. Without trying to get someone at Warner Chappell on camera, I felt I did the best I could at making sure this was a legit before I discussing it publicly. And at the time had no reason to think I shouldn’t make those videos. Those two videos started a shit storm I could not have foreseen. Which is a shame because I’m just trying to keep people ahead of the curve. Even multiple people at Dolby music clipped, and shared my video.
@@ColtCapperrune Bro 🤦🏻♂️ You knew what you were doing. Let’s not pretend.
@@marklholloway I didn’t get that vibe. I got the vibe that in Colt’s first video on the topic, he was just excited about his new plans for his studio. In the second video it seems that he saw the reaction from the comments from the first video and realised he’d opened a whole can of worms and had to address it.
@@Funkybassuk Sorry you took the bait ☠️ Colt outsmarted all y’all who fell for ‘Why is Apple forcing Atmos on us??!!’ 👏👏👏 If it was true, as he stated ‘It came out, as of February 1st, you won’t get playlisted on Apple without an Atmos mix’ but ‘some people are reporting they are still being listed’ then TH-cam would have exploded with videos talking about this. What I disagree with is Colt pinning it on the head of Warner Chappell Nashvile as the source who shared this information to all the WC management and labels. That’s putting words in someone’s mouth, someone who’s way above his pay grade. Not cool 🪦 As Barry mentioned, he’s also incentivized by Sweetwater, promoting their Atmos studio in exchange for getting a seat in the Atmos class. He needs to grow views, subscribers, likes, affiliate links, to maintain sponsorship, and there are those who will do what it takes. I respect Barry for not selling out and keeping it real.
Atmos is the musical equivalent of Scientology.
The first time I heard atmos on headphones was like 2 days ago. On headphones 98% of what I heard sounded like shit compared to their stereo counterpart, the other 2% sounded just ok. Headphones is where most people will continue to listen to music, this is just sad that the industry is pushing this. I have the space and the possibility to make atmos in the near future if I don’t have a choice, but wow this shit pisses me off.
I agree 100% with you. I have had the exact same observations and experience listening to the songs released in ATMOS with Headphones. It sounds like garbage. I have no doubt in my mind that it probably sounds amazing in an actual ATMOS room when the song was actually mixed in a legit ATMOS room. But Spatial audio attempting to make ATMOS in headphones and then engineers creating ATMOS mixes with headphones is not going to add any value to the listening experience. It just seems so gimmicky.
This. I fully agree and what worries me is that there is so much money pumped into this that we may not be able to back out of it and we end up with no choice but listening to half-assed stereo mixdowns of an Atmos mix. Tidal at least has the courtesy to clearly separate stereo and Atmos versions which is how I hope things remain. Now, I've started to add on full discrete Atmos capability to my stereo mixing studio for under $1000 which is an experiment to see if it can be done. I think discrete spatial audio is really cool but the binaural rendering is very underwhelming to me. If this isn't significantly improved, I could see consumers not choosing it, especially if they have to pay a premium for it, and then the format is dead in the water. That's unfortunate because the experience could be very cool if the binaural algorithms are improved but that may take a while. Anyway, time will tell, if your curious, it's possible to get your feet wet in Atmos at a pretty low cost. I'd be a bit careful of judging Atmos by the binaural rendering though. And as the video here states, I don't think you necessarily have to care about it as a small time producer, certainly not in the short term. My 2c.
To make Atmos worth it, you really have to record it with Atmos in mind for me.
A lot of Atmos mixes sound like they just pan a few random things to the back channels and slap a surround reverb on it and calling it a day.
Especially on headphones this sounds poorly
headphone where you better be mixing at too buy some hedd for $1800 mix it
@@DaveZNoisebox Atmos sounds incredible on a well designed sound system, when the songs are mixed well and taking full advantage of surround’s creative potential. I recently purchased a Sonos Arc and two Sonos ERA 300s for rear and it’s like a night and day difference vs listening to the same Atmos tracks on headphones, Apple Homepods or anything without distinct rear channels.
I think anyone would see the appeal after listening to a stereo track on my Adam A7X or Senn HD600s - then comparing the Atmos version of the track on my Sonos setup. (The atmos mix of Fleetwood Mac: Dreams, Elton John: Rocket Man are excellent showcases)
The "be suspicious of sponsored videos" thing is silly. Sweetwater sponsors most of my videos. You see me posting Atmos content? A better rule is "use good judgment and critical thinking when watching creaators online, sponsored or not (especially if it's just someone's opinions)" I tend to like content that shows how to do something, what something sounds like, or actually seeing a product in use so viewers can come to their own conclusions. People are smarter than you think.
Andrew, sorry if it hit a nerve, for what it’s worth I happen to like your channel. That said, if it were actually as you said, you wouldn’t have needed to post what you did at all.
The world is a big place, full of people of different ages, and different experiences along their journey of learning all of this. I would never presume to think about where somebody is in all of this, and what they see a common knowledge or not. They can choose themselves, whether to pay attention or not.
So I’m going to keep advising them the way I think I can to best help them. I do think, no, I know, people have to be suspicious of channel sponsored by music stores. I’m sorry, but I’ve been in business for a very long time at a high-level, I know exactly how these things work. I don’t make my living from Music, but I have been passionate about it for the vast majority of my life.
If they have never influenced you, then I’m proud of you, and I honestly mean that. Not that that should matter to you.
But you and I both know that’s not always the case, and that should as well be common knowledge as well. I get way more comments thanking me for posting things like this and very few from your perspective.
The thing with my channel, is, I could really care less how much it grows. The only reason I want it to grow is to help people. I don’t need the money, I don’t need any of it. I work a full-time job working 60 hours a week, I haven’t taken a day off in over seven months. If I’m not working, I’m working on TH-cam, or I’m working on my woodworking passion as well.
The number one comment I get from my viewers, is, I’m not like anybody else, because I’m honest, I’m sincere, and I’m not affected by any outside sources.
This is true, actually, if I ever were impacted by someone else, be it a business, or anything else, I would shut my channel down in a second. End of story.
@@BarryJohns it’s ok Barry this guy Andrew definitely thought this video fit in that category.The sweetwater sponsor is all you need to know he’s just one of the biggest meat riders on atmos till date!
Atmos is a marketing gimmick.
Get good headphones or IEMs, do the mix through the binaural renderer. Or just do a stereo mix and use the atmos authoring tools to print it as the 2.0 bed of an ADM file. Congrats, you just made a 100% valid atmos mix.
And volia. Just hacked the system. For normal music thats the way.
@@ramonmargarett3923 i mean...even if you're delivering in atmos, who's to say that your artistic vision wasn't a stereo presentation?
I think Atmos is just another attempt to make people spend more money of something that is useless for music. What’s the point?! Just leave the music alone. People are bored with left and right I guess.
For movies ok. For music, Why?!
Maybe this is something for rich people to listen to music in a different way. But the everyday consumer of music could care less.
Atmos is overrated hype. The way it collapses to stereo just doesn’t work and Ive done a lot of listening to compare. Certain styles and genres loose out in my view. Mixing isn’t just about sound quality it’s about art. I think a lot of engineers who can afford the setup for Atmos are really hoping for this to give them a unique niche. There are ways to buy an Atmos setup for an affordable amount (for example iloud - not cheap but possible). So no it’s not out of reach but I’m wondering if anyone will really care. It will be pushed and forced by Apple but I can tell you now that unless the punter gets it it will not happen. It’s not like tapes and CDs and mp3s - these offered far more improvements and were more about copying music - tape allowed duplication and CD offered perfect duplication and mp3 offered convenient duplication across the internet.
Almos offers an audiophile experience that most general listeners won’t care about.
Secondly as a consumer I’ve found Atmos always requires more than what I have. It’s dead before it gets going for music. It will exist in the future, but I’ve owned cars with all these gimmicky sound surround tricks in them for years now - Dolby this and that. Film is a different matter and of course it will enrich that. This is not about film.
Still there will be those that buy into the marketing hype. In 10 years a few cars will have it and I’m sure it’s one of those “features” that will be forgotten about for music.
I survived the quadrophonic scare back in the day.
And certainly not sure about this format either.
If I go see a concert the music/vocals normally come from the front left, front right and center.
I don’t hear any instruments or vocals coming from above left, above right, directly overhead or from the back.
Atmos could certainly apply to audio for film or video as to enhance the visual.
Just not seeing it for music production. Why do I want drums coming out of left field, fly overhead and land somewhere else? Yes I’m exaggerating a bit.
Yeah I know….I’m a downer.
But I think AI might be able to figure something unimaginable from it...but that remains to be seen.
The problem i have with Atmos is that there is no way to have a dry mono sound. And no way to get rid of that artificial room reverb. As a mixer, I like to create contrast, and that's limiting.
If it catches on, it will be because of the headphone version and cars adapting it. The headphone version is supposed to simulate binaural audio. Like the dummy head with realistic molded ears with microphones in them. But there doesn't seem to be a way to make close dry sounds. Look up the binaural haircut here on yt for example and listen with headphones. When Atmos gets that good, maybe I'll be on board, but right now I think it's great for movies and shows, but kind of a gimmick for music.
In movies, surround isn't used 100% of the time. It's only for effect to give more information about what's happening off screen. If it was used too much, it would be distracting.
For music, it's kind of the same way. We still expect the important things, vocals, kick, snare, to be center. And less important things to be planned out to create contrast. But where exactly things get panned or placed isn't as critical as it is with a movie for it to be believable and for you to be immersed.
For a movie, when the airplane sounds like it's above us, we go "wow that's so realistic and amazing". And since we expect that airplane to be above us, it's easier for our brain to interpret the sound that way. For a song, if a synth part is placed above us, we might think it's cool, but there isn't the same wow factor and level of immersion like there is for movies. It's a bit unnecessary. And considering where most people listen to music, it seems even more unnecessary.
For movies, it helps to tell the story better. But for music, unless someone writes a cheesy song about things being panned all over, it doesn't necessarily add anything to enhance the songwriting.
Well said.
I agree 100%.
Werd
Technically you can set all objects to speaker snap in the DAW panner and all binaural render modes to off in the Dolby Atmos Renderer. The problem with this approach is often the ADM master is rejected for either lacking binaural modes or them all being the same (depends on label I believe). Really what is 'desperately' needed is to be able to have the anechoic HRTF without 'having' to apply Dolby's rather naff sounding near/mid/far reverb room model. I think only Dolby & MPEG-H enforce a reverb with their binaural representation. Apple Spatial is even worse because it ignores all binaural modes and applies their own blanket middle size room to everything.
For about the past 2 seeks I've been doing some extensive research on Dolby Atmos. It was all because of a video of another TH-camr that spoke about the announcement of Apple Music no longer play-listing your music unless its in Dolby Atmos. This got me thinking a lot, which led me to my research.
I definitely think Atmos is something that's gonna be quite different and it'll take a few years for it to be here for good. I'm praying the technology upgrades especially for headphones because I can personally say that listening to music in Spatial Audio sounds worse then regular stereo(in my opinion). And I'm sure your average consumer of music will think the same. A lot of music in Spatial Audio just sounds like everything is in a short reverb(small room) and you don't get the full benefits of multiple speakers around you.
I also don't think stereo will and should go away for Dolby Atmos to completely take over. Atmos is great for having the speaker set up, movie theaters, cars with Dolby Atmos, and hopefully it improves in headphones. But would this mean any other way we listen to music has to be in Atmos too? I can imagine radio stations to start transmitting in Atmos but will venues have to do the same? Will a DJ have to bring multiple speakers to a wedding just to have the Dolby experience? Clubs? Churches? Even live shows, I think stereo will have to stick around for those. These have been my thoughts during my research lol
Just like Quad music Dolby Atmos will never take the home market for music only. Most people listen to their music in cars, on ear buds or headphones from their phone. Sitting in a home theater with a Dolby Atmos system setup to listen to music will be a rare event. The system simply has no benefit for just plain music. Now for a Blu-ray concert maybe but I really, even the tech we have now with 7.1 surround sound is more than adequate. Does some extra sound coming from the ceiling for a music show really add anything, I think not. For music, it is a solution for a non-existent problem.
Here's the thing. If everyone is recording and mixing in stereo, places like Sweetwater will sell you a pair of Focal Trio6's for $6K. But with Dolby Atmos, they will sell you 7.1.4 Focal speakers for $25K. "You MUST have it, because Apple and Spotify says so. Oh, and you have to be able to calibrate your speakers, so you have to spend another $8K and you need an interface with at least 16 outputs, as 8 outputs isn't enough". We have to spend a minimum of (I understand some people are smarter than others and will find more cost affective ways of doing it) $37K just get our foot in the sandbox to play with everyone else. Not all innovations are good. Especially if they force it on you.
Exactly
What I find interesting is we've already been down this road before. Does anybody remember quadraphonic? I had such a player in my truck back in the 70's. There were several albums released in this format but it died out. I don't think Atmos will die out this time.
Yea a mom working at Mc Donalds with 4 kids will run out and buy an Atmos system to listen to music ranging from thousands, or those ear buds at walmart on her phone. 🙄🙄🙄😬🤦🏾♂️
@@Allious131 what a stupid response.
My hippie parents had a dope quad system and used to spin a lot of Simon and Garfunkel, Roberta Flack, and Pink Floyd at their epic fondue parties.
@@Allious131 She has 4 kids - she already got "quadraphonic"!
Dolby used a 2 pronged approach for Atmos music.
1) content - they struck a deal with Universal Music.
2) electronic manufacturers - Samsung, LG, Sony, etc.
Many people are going to use Dear VR to simulate 7.1.4
Yeah… nah. Quadraphonic, 5.1 surround, 7.1 surround, 9.1 surround, 12.1 surround., etc. Average music consumer fav listening method - ear buds poorly fitted and wirelessly paired with their not-so-smart phones, ‘streaming’ free music. Average consumer doesn’t give a toss. Musos don’t give a toss. Not one single person has asked me, ‘dude, is your studio set up for atmos?’ Just another fad format, like all the other fad formats before it. Don’t waste your money… until you absolutely have to, which is highly unlikely. Get another guitar or three instead. 🤣🎸
You have entered into my inner sanctum with your comment. And Ive come out the other side a changed individual on this topic. Or at least I’m in full %120 agreement . In fact you could be my new temporary hero. Gracias 🙏 Ciao . Thing is to not buy these fancy platforms unless it’s stereo based
also it’s a waste for regular music listening. In fact most people are listening to thin compressed dog shit MP3’s on a $30-$50 Bluetooth speaker where then the stereo image is crammed into a mono signal . At that point no multi channel software to process audio is going to benefit the mix.
Any DAW on the market can now put put music with out the need for Dolby 5.1 let alone 9.9 speaker set up. It’s ridiculous.
Don NOT Give a Rats about "ATMOS". Thanks but you can not call it ATAMOS anymore. OK? 🙂
🤦♂️
Comment hits home for sure!
You either adapt or get behind
@@MilestonesMusic1 Your gonna adapt to a trend that will die in the next 5 to 6 years nothing or no one is left behind it's a marketing ploy that will fall off some years from now.
@@MilestonesMusic1 The only people getting left behind will be you and others investing in atmos.
The majority of movies put out on streaming or disk DO NOT employ Atmos or DTSX. I am an audiophile and own an Atmos system and most, 90% of 4K discs I own DO NOT have it. It is extremely unnecessary for music, that is not how our ears were designed to listen to music. Otherwise they would set up live orchestras with string or brass players physically in front and BEHIND you in the auditorium, but they do not and never will. Why? Because it is unnatural. Besides, good auditoriums provide natural reflections for good imaging anyway. It's weird to me that with all that goes on in this world that Dolby Atmos in a car will be some kind of priority.
I seriously doubt that Atmos will ever become the standard for music. It is rare to find a home with a decent 2-speaker sound-system. Believing that the music-consumer will ever care for Atmos is a pipe dream. If anything, the listening experience is moving backwards.
When we don't give them money, it will die. Much like laser discs and mini discs. Who the hell wants sound coming from the ceiling for music? How is that better than the surround sound from the 1940s that NEVER worked for music?
Dolby Atmos is just a way to push the home studio producers out. It’s an industry play. Virtually no one is going have this capability at home. It’s also not necessary for music, but oh well.
I 100% agree. And without 15 speakers it's algo spatial smearing sounds like shit and nothing will change that. Humans have 2 ears. No one remembers quad for a reason.
Agreed. Industry trying to squash the little man.
@@drwmedia It will fail some years from now they want home studios gone so bad but that would never happen actually it's dam near impossible and they know that but it's ok it will crush them and make them non existent, they are just digging that hole but the shovel can only go so deep.
It's also a way to sell all the old songs all over again.
Dolby Atmos itself is not going to “push home producers out”, it’s just an audio format, not unlike the many other audio formats that have come along over the years.
It’s the various music streaming and download services that have either started requiring music to be mixed in Dolby Atmos, or those that plan to implement it as a requirement in the future, that will have an effect on home studios…to what degree remains to be seen, as the cost of setting up a studio with the necessary gear and software for Atmos at this point is pricey, but, like any other technology, the cost will diminish over time.
When CD’s first came out, no studios, not even the big professional ones, were able to burn music to compact discs.
Over time, the software and hardware to do that became available, and in the beginning, only the big studios had the money to invest in it.
But eventually, the cost came down, and became affordable to smaller studios, who jumped on board, and ultimately, the hardware and software became so cheap and so widely available that write-able CD drives were built into almost every new computer, and it got to where anyone and everyone with a computer was able to burn audio and data to CD’s right in their living rooms.
My hunch is that just a couple years from now, the software and hardware necessary to create Dolby Atmos mixes will be in a wide array of studios, both in pro commercial level facilities and in small home studios alike, as technology makes it more accessible and affordable.
The consumer level market doesn’t care. Most consumers listen on some version of EarPods or on a smart device.
I would add if you fallow apple and android you loose what you own to hav what they make in false reality. Id rather have a cd or a record and all the papers in it
What if it flops like 3D T.V. technology?
Ok either you can mix and master or you can't. If you need a pitch corrector or you can sing. Sweetwater is changing their name to quagmire. To have the audacity to demand what I have to purchase and produce
besides talent is a real highendness maneuver. Stick it up your ATMOS Sweetwater. Love ya Barry
Atmos is great for movies and video games but not for music. Music doesn't sound good if it is too spread out (maybe classical music would work out but not pop/rpck/country). Other formats that were proposed in the past (quad, surround, etc.) didn't succeed. I don't think this time the Atmos format will stay either. The industry is pushing hard to regain control and are almost forcing well stablished mixing engineers to get setup with Atmos (and spending a lot of money). That means mixes will be way more expensive and since the mastering engineers also need to be setup with an Atmos room, masters will also be way more expensive. If Apple , Spotify and other streaming platforms are threatening with excluding music that it is not in Atmos format for their playlists, who cares? And if being on a playlist (if you really manage to get into one) is so important, then convert your stereo mix into the Atmos format. This is the same BS play that Waves tried to pull of recently and backfired because everybody united and uninstalled their plugins. Maybe we should do the same with Atmos.
Barry, as always great content! I always appreciate that you bring interesting topics for open discussion (Forgot to add this on my previous comment).
i dont think dolby atmos will succeed. its like 3d movies
Great perspective. We still don't have 4k broadcast TV out of Chicago. TH-cam tv 4k is really a pretty recent development too.
Barry, I think it’s AT-MOS not ATA-MOS…😂
I knew I would get called on that.
ATA boy 😂
I’m still learning how to mix in stereo , so atmos is not in my future. And as always , thanks for the content Barry
Agree, I am still trying to master 2 ch mixes.
I won't lie though. The thought of a large surround canvas to mix on sounds fun.
If anyone cares: I'm tooling up for Atmos over the course of 2023 to offer it as a service in 2024. I'm doing it for compatibility but beyond that I don't currently care about it. The music I work on is not typically on the radar enough to garner Apple Music Playlisting. Also... Apple Music can take a long walk off a short pier. I thinks i's really important to have realistic goals about the reach of the music you're working on and design your studio services around that.
This, for me, is an "old man yelling at clouds" moment - when Dolby Atmos is required for music listening, I'm out. I'm not going down that road. And perhaps many said this when we went from mono to stereo. Stereo did end up sticking and mono was left in the dust.
But what about quad?
What about DVD-A?
What about SACD?
Those formats are dead in the water and NO ONE gives a shit about them. Right now Atmos has a HUGE push from Apple and that's why it's in so many damn conversations. Put Sweetwater in the mix with Mitch Gallagher talking about how this is the next best thing and people are going to start kinda listening to the conversation.
But it's all crap. Music in surround/immersive is NOT attractive to most. Atmos mixes mostly sound like trash. Great for movies and shows and video games. Music? Well, no dice. People don't care enough about music anymore for these types of mixes to make any significant move. It's all hype and a selling gimmick. I'm out on Atmos and I'm not afraid to say as much.
The fact that Spotify and Apple are taking this stance is mildly infuriating. It feels like a gift to increasingly irrelevant commercial studios, major labels and gear manufacturers. I think that just like quadraphonic, 5.1, 7.1 etc, etc, - Atmos is overkill in music applications. Also, the fact that different decoders handle the same track differently is another thing that I feel is just crazy. I'm not going to worry about it. Two ears, two speakers.
Atmos will not be taking off until a non proprietary surround sound platform is adopted. Apple by itself isn't popular enough to drive the market. As is right now, Atmos is a niche.
Speaking as a home-based creator AND consumer, atmos is a sales industry pipe dream. I’ve been consistently expressive of my disinterest in reinvesting, as have others. Who would I even be mixing atmos for? Basically no music listeners will have atmos systems, and I’m not doing cinematic sound design.
Thanks Barry! I like your perspective on this. I’m 48 and have been through most of the tech changes you’re talking about. My grandparents had the 8 track player that looked like a piece very nice furniture! I’ll admit that when I saw other channels talking about this I was skeptical. When the day comes for me to switch I may start with headphones. Great talk.
As a studio owner working with independent artists I am livid about the whole thing. As far as I know, spatial audio streams aren't paying artists more per stream. As a studio owner that will have to invest in a new monitoring system, how do I charge more to pay for it if the artists aren't getting compensated proportionately? If I want to remain competitive I have two options: Upgrade to spatial audio mixing capability and eat it so artists can continue to make competitive records. Or: upgrade to spatial audio mixing and charge accordingly and now my clients have to pay more to make the same payout per stream as a stereo mix. Either way, someone at the beginning of the chain is getting screwed over. All of this so Apple can market a product that's being paid for my everyone else but them. They've got hundreds of billions in cash, maybe they should do what the government did to entice electric car adoptions and off studios purchasing new macs some kind of rebate on a spatial audio mixing systems with all money they have to grease the wheels. That would launch the transition to spatial audio with some real power. Even I would buy a mac to do that.
Here’s what we all need to do. Just mix atmos on headphones. Use what you already have… because that is EXACTLY what the consumer is going to do. DO NOT spend the cash to buy 15 speakers to make a mix that no other person than you will ever hear. Most people will listen on headphones…probably air pods, so if you want to invest in atmos, invest in a pair of airpods and mix on those. If it sounds good on those than it will sound great for 99% of people.
It’s the way to both allow you to join the atmos crowd without jumping on a bandwagon financially that will most likely not be a thing in 5 years, for music at least.
Don't forget soundbars.
New HDMI spec will work as interface between computer and sound bar.
I am cool with starting with some earphones but ir is nowhere the same as discrete speakers.
Don't forget soundbars.
New HDMI spec will work as interface between computer and sound bar.
I am cool with starting with some earphones but ir is nowhere the same as discrete speakers.
@@germancarluv pretty irrelevant imo. Soundbars in my experience sound at best about as good as headphones and also nowhere near discrete speakers. The only people that will hear the mix on discrete speakers is you and other engineers who bought in. 90% of people will be listening on headphones… maybe 9% on soundbars and other consumer atmos faking systems… then maybe a whopping 1% of consumers will have actual atmos setups to take advantage of the fruits of your 5-$25,000 investment. It just makes more sense in every possible way to mix for binaural headphone applications.
Possibly. I would argue more than 9% of the public have or will have soundbars.
I agree with majority listing on earbuds.
My experience with binaural atmos fold down was pretty lack luster though.
It requires a headscan for proper binaural playback.
Maybe would have sounded better if I have phone scan head and use proper spacial audio playback.
@@germancarluv this is exactly why Atmos wont take off though. It needs to fold up. Not down. It needs to sound best on headphones first. You need to get people excited about atmos on the equipment they already have or it’s a nonstarter. As it stands, even if it’s 50% that have sound bars, both headphones and sound bars are the worst way to experience atmos. And even with that, most people buy sound bars to watch movies. Where Atmos actually makes sense as an evolution of 5.1 in movie enthusiasts homes. But for music, all roads lead to catering to binaural mixes on headphones and forgoing the investment in discrete speakers until there is evidence of real music adoption in the consumer culture.
Obvious industry push to try and tighten their grip on publishing. It is so hilariously unnecessary.
If bedroom producers are having trouble justifying this how is a consumer going to justify it. I understand there will be spatial headphones for consumers but this doesn’t feel like a smart move by the industry. Thanks for the video and rational response to this madness.
What does "spatial headphone" even mean? Will we be moving around with a bag over our heads?
There is this little thing called "the laws of physics".
This is a very good point. Us music nerds are a lot more likely to spend a lot of money on gear than the average listener.
I think I speak for most when I say this was another great video, we appreciate all your efforts to teach and make us laugh brother, you are loved by the community for your honesty and personality, thankyou❤️
I feel, at the end of the day, there is still a market for monophonic music (think of how many kids you've seen just going through the park blarring music on their BT speaker).
I have my own new audio software im forcing the world to use coming out soon. Its called "Atmost". Its for modern mainstream artists to record with. The only people allowed to use it are the highest selling most famous current pop musicians. Here are some of the features:
1. The artist must record themselves without help from any professionals. They can no longer rely on other peoples expertise. They have to actually learn how to engineer and produce their own record on humble home recording equipment. Get that Tascam 424 manual pdf download started now, Taylor Swift.
2. The artist cannot use voice tuning software. We will finally hear what their human voice sounds like without a team of people fixing everything for them. No Soothe. No Melodyne. Time to look in the mirror with the makeup off.
3. No drum machines or drum editing. Artists must play the drums with their own two hands, no professionals, no hired session players.
4. The artist must write their own original songs. No help whatsoever from ghost writers or co-writers. No more letting a professional take your awkward poem and turn it into a great song by adding all the strong songwriting tricks that the artist was too busy being famous for being a "musical genius" to learn for themselves.
5. No brand loyalty or professional promotion from a company. No showing the artists face or who they are. They must release the music with a blank cover or fake name so that people have to actually like the song and not just like it because the artist is already famous or very attractive.
With my new recording software, I look forward to all the multi million selling "musical geniuses" self written, self recorded, self promoted blank cover/no music video/no corporate promotion albums they will create. I also look forward to them selling, without any help or fake tricks, about 15 copies "Atmost".
great video, but, is it atamos or atmos? keep em coming!
i don't understand how musician's don't have great systems instead of iphone/ipods to properly hear their creations. they are missing a lot of the frequencies they are creating!
I see Cubase running over there 🎉
Thanks for bringing some balance to this topic! I've often wondered if just mixing with headphones in 'spatial' would be a good idea, since I'd guess that most people will likely consume it on earbuds/headphones or perhaps enhanced sound bars etc, but certainly it would be unlikely for many people to have full blown multi channel Atmos setups in their houses, and if that's the case would having the physical speaker setup make much sense?
People used to love listening to Beatles through one speaker. If Atmos makes my music sound like the Beatles I am all for it.
There's no need to rush into Atmos but there are very affordable ways to get started. Logic, Nuendo and Cubase Pro 12 all include the Atmos tools needed (Windows included w/ Nuendo and Cubase Pro 12). For $500-$1,000 in software and some additional monitors you can be up and running. The fact that anyone with headphones can listen to a folded down Atmos mix means this format isn't going anywhere. I grew up with quad and have watched every other surround format emerge and fade. The problem was always a lack of delivery.
Atmos is a different dog boys. The argument that an Atmos mix on headphones sounds like crap is comical given the number of people who spend money on headphones. How many of you griping about the sound quality rushed out to buy Beats when they hit the market?
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your takes on the industry happenings. I HATE when companies use fear mongering to sway people into buying or upgrading gear. 😮💨😮💨😮💨
the reason why nobody listens to surround music is the same reason why nobody will listen to dolby atmos music except if it is stereo disguised as dolby atmos. pop music and metal music needs to have a solid drum/bass hitting wall of sound monolithic effect. dolby atmos or surround disintegrates that monolith. atmos would work only for film, jazz and classical.
I listened to 5.1 dsd today.
I have more than a few rock SACDs and thy sound fine in surround.
@@germancarluv and thats because they dont take much advantage of the 5.1 except for few sound effects. 90% of the bulk of sounds are probably still stereo. those that i have are this way. even though mixed in surround, the bulk of the material is still just stereo basically
If people can enjoy music on their phone’s speakers, or on a mono bluetooth speaker, I can’t see how most people (or a significant part of the market) would go out of their way to enjoy music in atmos.
And that’s assuming the music is better in armos. At this point in time, even that isn’t a safe assumption.
Still. If you enjoy atmos, or if you wanna invest in it, I’m not getting in your way. By all means, please do.
WTF is "Atamos?"
I’m still trying to figure that out
Atmos music if recorded & listened back on a didcated surrond system is very good. Headphone playback I found it over saturated.
I only mix in 420.69 (future proof format)😮😅
Owning my business i like to prepare for new things and i would say learn more about it and see how it can enhance your customer base befor you heavly invest but for now knowledge is king no one knows the future so its best to prepare as much as possible.😊
Could be like 3D movies. Who watches 3D movies at home? I might be wrong.
Hi Barry, thank for the video. Car manufacturers still put tape decks in to cars until 2006 FYI. It took approximately +-24 years as cds were first introduced in 1982.
Plus, from the time they have purchased that car with a tape deck, it will be even longer before they invest in a newer model that doesn't.
atmos on headphones (where the majority of fans listen to music) is not audible. fans are not going to invest in 7000 speakers and stop listening on headphones just because Apple told them to. it's a joke.
How do we include the small guy?Been a studio musician for 50 years and back into mixing, session work.Never seen such a blatant disregard for independent people.HAIl Apple..HELP.
Barry, I read Dolby Atmos renderer is not available for Windows in the same machine you have your DAW. However, I know Nuendo 12 comes with the Dolby Atmos Renderer in itself , my question is - Can I use have the same rendering capabilities Macs have on Windows if I'm using Nuendo 12? Cheers.
Hey Barry . Personally I feel Atmos is a step backwards for music making . You can’t compare it to 720 or 1080 or 4K TV’s …we visually saw the pictures getting better . We can’t hear the difference in ATMOS. If you get 4K it’s 4K. It’s like that with stereo and mono . But it’s not like that with atmos. The experience differs from setup to setup . Maybe 5 years down the line … but what if we discover something better than atmos ?
Music lovers: "We want better music!"
Music Industry (now a bunch of tech nerds): "We hear you. We are happy to give you more technology"
Music Lovers: "No, just pay artists better so they will invest more time in creating better songs!"
Music Industry: "We hear you! More technology coming your way!"
I am not a Dolby fan. Dolby A was awful: the only thing it did for anyone was introduce multiband compression, inadvertently, when disabled on playback. Dolby B, dreadful. Dolby C gave us treble boost when disabled on playback. Dolby Atmos has no relevance to music actually performed, as against synthesised. Quad and surround sound had no real relevance to music recording: the only genres that really benefited were classical and, arguably, jazz, where surround sound gave a better sense of the acoustic of the performance space (and surround is easily implemented using Gerzon techniques). Dolby Atmos for music is just dumb. So Atmos for cinema, well yes. That makes some sense, but personally I last went to a cinema over 25 years ago and don't plan to ever go again, nor do I watch TV or movies as they are all so bad. But I do write music for plays and have written music for films (nothing you'd ever have heard of!), so my next "home" studio will indeed be designed for Atmos and have a low end Atmos 7:4:1 setup so I can mix for small films if I ever get any, perhaps for game sound design, and to remix some tracks for 7:4:1. Cubase already has the renderer. There Is NO escape… and it need not cost that much.😶
So what of the massive collection of civilization's music that has been recorded mono/stereo in the last 70 years? Is "Dark Side of the Moon" now banned on streaming services because it isn't mixed in Atmos? Of course not. There will ALWAYS have to be an accommodation for these standard formats. So why the dictatorial push for new submissions be mixed in Atmos? Especially when it will not be consumed 99% + of the time in it's advanced multi-channel form? Honestly, it feels like the old school music industry is trying to squash the small/medium format production means that is currently kicking their collective butt. Too late, that genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.
It's fine that Atmos exists for cinematic presentation. It's just the next surround sound format, big whoop. We've been down this road many times already. Most decent computers and just about all modern flat screens have at least a light pipe 5.1 output available that rarely if ever gets used. Only a very slim minority of consumers care about it and that will ultimately be its downfall.
Finally, if Apple, Spotify et. al. persist with this dogmatic approach, I guarantree there will be replacement/alternative delivery formats that pop up that WILL service the need.
I honestly don't think Atmos will become absolutely necessary. The problem with Atmos, using the HD TV example like Barry does, is that an HD TV is still only one screen while Atmos, like Sorround, needs more hardware on the consumer side also. Do we really take advantage of Atmos when using headphones or, worse, the cellphone speaker? 90% of consumers will not have a listening room to justify paying extra for Atmos music like you do now for 4K movies.
Now, could it become the standard with no extra cost? Yes, for sure. Will the average consumer care if its Atmos or simple stereo? No, except the same people that buy 4k EUR HiFi stereo amplifiers for their living room.
You could invest tens of thousands for new speakers and all that equipment that the industry wants us you to buy only to be able to deliver Atmos mixes that 99% of people don't really care about and will listen to on cheap earbuds or soundbars. Or! You can use mixing software like the new Fiedler Audio one that allows you to mix for Dolby Atmos in every DAW and every computer system via Headphones only for 199 bucks. Guess what I´m gonna use... And I will raise my prices for delivering an extra Atmos mix for sure. Will Atmos mixes done on physical spreakers and deditcated rooms sound and translate slightly better? Maybe yes, but I really really don't give a sh...
I'm not a huge fan of this, but I'm seeing way too many market forces that will increase demand for spatial mixes. I don't think it'll be really fast (strictly due to cost) but in 10 years, Dolby and at least one other yet-to-be-seen standard will prevail. More importantly, stereo mixes will continue to be THE standard for at least another 25 years. My $0.02.
Atmos will eventually become the standard for recording, however, the song will suffer and the focus won't be memorable lyrics, song structure and great songs, but cool effects that have no basis on songs or great performances, it will be about: "wouldn't it be cool to ......." I got into recording and music to write great songs with stories and wonderful hooks not into "Movie sound effects". I will still concentrate on songwriting as my priority and traditional recording as my means of having my songs heard and played. For me, it is about the song.
Barry, I don't understand why are trying to sell something that you can't try, and to enjoy this you need to be in specific place, who guarantee that the users are placing the sistem correctly?, most of the people use headphones and use the music as companion, no to pay attention in details, for example music in market, music in the office, etc, why industry standard? I have 2 ears and if I want to listen my music without disturb someone next to me, I use headphones, why music Standard? Why who promote this? Who is pushing?
Since when does the public care about quality? We were playing immersive high-definition games 20 years ago on big monitors in PC and when crappy 8 bit garbage on a tiny phones started on Google Play we laughed. Audiophiles with pristine systems laughed at mp3's and mono wifi speakers. My wife listens to crappy TH-cam songs on her inch speaker in the kitchen. The masses simply don't care. Virtually everything used today is worse because they market to the mass - not us geniuses.
I believe it’ll either fade out, or the ones truly concerned with audio quality, will continue to only ever release music in stereo and stick it to the major streaming platforms. Either way, I’m only going to concern myself with clients that want stereo mixes and respect the 2 channel sound we’ve enjoyed for decades. My fear is that this technology is being pushed so outrageously hard because everything is being converted to work within METAverse etc. Think about it, how would music sound in the META if all the surround sound effects were there and the music was in plain stereo? I am 100% against the META.
I guess a lot of it will come down to the consumer in the end. Yes we have streaming music now, but people are still listening to MP3's, Vinyl, and CD's. Think of the different medias that were hyped in between all that. Blu-ray was seen near the beginning of it's release as a better format for music. Then you had 5.1, then 7.1, but they seem almost relegated to watching movies. You have to keep in mind something else might come along that works better or more accepted. You have to ask how many people are going to care about the sound quality outside the existing formats. Just something's to consider. I agree we should all wait.
Sry for my words in advance, as I appreciate your contributions in general.. .and your right... this topic is annoying me concerning to what logic pro guys seem to think they are very cool with atmos. I think nobody cares, nobody needs and everybody is annoyed.. as they better invest to make Logic pro as solid as Bitwig, guys are waiting for the software gets just simply better.. lol Dolby Atmos in cinemas or creative art instructions.. yes please but thats special high advanced stuff... let please simple music producers out of that game and make that software better instead. EDIT The technical university I was, they had thing called wave field synthesis developed at fraunhofer institute. Companies were even founded and money was invested ending up in warm air for lot of money. OK, now lets try with atmos... lol
To me this is just the fat cats' attempt at regaining control of the market. One thing is to offer it as an alternative or premium service. Another very different thing is to impose it. When that happens, it's obvious it's a power grab. I say 'screw'm'. Whatever improvement it may provide as a listening experience is marginal at best. And most of the content produced by the fat cats is garbage anyway. The Waves saga proved that we still have some power (not a whole lot), but the fact that they back-pedaled means the home studio market is large enough to matter. We should massively give them the middle finger. And I believe most people will anyway. How many people in the world can afford a system like that in their home? As Barry correctly states, most people listen to their music on earbuds or headphones or in their car, and I would add, on bluetooth boomboxes, which for all practical purposes, are mono. So what's the freaking point. This just sounds as an excuse to sell the same old garbage in a nicer package at an outrageous price.
Isn't it possible to just convert a stereo mix into a Dolby Atmos 2.0 bed to comply with the Atmos requirements?
Could also be worth waiting for an open 3D sound format instead of accepting the proprietary licensed formats available now. There's probably a reason why after a few years only a small number of streaming services and no download stores have Atmos content. In future I'm hoping we can mix in 3D without having to accept the format Dolby is forcing
Remember atmos folds down to Stereo so it doesn’t matter. Radio won’t ever be Atmos. The bandwidth is way to high. Each atmos song is 7 gigs and possible more later on or maybe slightly less but still way to high to be practical. Also you can’t get full true atmos without having the ADM file to stream directly.
It folds down to stereo so Stereo will stay
It’s a gimmick and for the higher 1%
Atmos doesnt even sound good. Or atleast that much better than stereo. Stereo aint going away
Apple and others will develop ATMOS headphones. This is the way most people will consume it. It is also the way I will mix for it.
95% music is consumed on headphones, BT speaker os from small speakers. ATMOs is DOA.
The planet primarily will use headphones and mono phones and stereo speakers. This trend wasn't changed with quad, surround and won't with Atmos speakers either, because people will not buy 12 speaker systems and most people don't want 12 speaker systems. As head of Netflix said, they are only really concerned with delivering spatial audio from 2 speakers. Their recent push with this is using Ambiophonics to deliver spatial to stereo consumer speakers in TVs, laptops etc.
The big elephant in Atmos's room is Google, they just have to snap their fingers to their own competing format (supposedly in development) and then Dolby Atmos is just another spatial audio format like all the others before it. Google have 75% of the mobile device market to Apple's 24%. Google have 2 Billion music listeners to Apple Music's 77 Million. Add to the fact 'every' device with Dolby Atmos pays a licence to Dolby in order to decode Dolby Atmos and Google's will supposedly be an open agnostic format and decoder, the device manufactures will pick a free codec every time.
The audio program at my school is starting to ask if we would want an Atmos mixing class. So it's coming, but yes, it will take some time. I also used speakers a lot more when I lived in a house. Now where I share walls with strangers, I'd be getting knocks, so headphones it is. It sucks, haha
I just don't buy the story that the average music listener will ever get a system that will deliver the Atmos experience. The average music listener today doesn't even know or care that the music they listen to is just plain garbage. I also don't think the music I like will translate to Atmos. Final point - just another example of the tech companies thinking that their technology is the "star" and the stuff that gets consumed through it just "content." F them all! 😄
Another point to consider - 99% of artists make peanuts from streaming services (if anything at all). If the streaming services want to create an additional elitist tier within the artist community by enforcing this new Atmos standard, then I suspect 99% of Artists could decide to distribute their music elsewhere.
Don’t think this will happen anytime soon first sign will be when your standard 8in 8 out interface upgrades there 2 stereo speaker outs to how many Dolby Atmos requires
I will for me completly ignore it. I do not own the space,money to invest in atmos. I do not produce much and do not release music anyway. I play for fun. In my opinion it's a push that is more a business thing. They always come up with new formats in audio and video and so many failed. 3D tv...fail...3d cinema fail. 3D audio...well wait for it. The regular people do not care about all that fuzz anyway. They do not own the hardware to enjoy all these fancy formats. I do not use apple products anyway (because of their "always new" business model)
technology is advancing by leaps and bounds, but we are in an era where certain areas of technology are so developed that there will not be much change at the end of their development (video games, television, photoshop...) . the dolby atmos for example, even if I have never experienced it, I know that it is a technological advance which will not have an impact on the way in which the music will be made and will be listened to, it is just a invention more reserved for the purist who will find nothing new except by noting how much the sound around them is in 3D in their studio nevertheless, men will always have two ears and headphones.
There are pioneers and trailblazers, and then there are followers and people who jump on the bandwagon claiming they were with the pioneers from the start. I’m going to go with the pioneers. Saying Adomos wow man. Good luck buddy
If you are doing post or soundtrack composition and getting paid for it don't wait. If you are producing and mixing songs ignore it completely.
Dolby system was very useful in the analog era, to clean up tape noise and stereo quad sound, now in the digital era, I don't think is a big deal to have.
Nobody needs that shrit. Stereo is enough for most people until 3d audio doesn't need more than 3 speakers or even no speakers but some other tech. Also those DAWs have to be evolve and transform in a much more usable form. Those DAWs are way too dumb to recognize the tempo of tracks that were recorded without click.
first and foremost your not getting on a playlist unless you pay for it or know somebody. dsp playlists are the new radio. you need to have bread and the right network to get on them. and honestly f the industry. the industry is dead
Even outside of 7.1.4 (and larger) setups, I think Atmos offers a novel approach to mixing in stereo and other traditional formats (quad, 5.1, etc). It allows for expressive panning that translates between different speaker configurations and headphones. I think there's a lot to be gained just from mixing stereo/binaural with Atmos.
Side note: I don't think anyone else is pronouncing it "Adamos"
Fully agree. And Adobe Atomos rules! 😅
I imagine it sounds cool in a perfect, custom built studio. It sounds like utter cack in any place that’s not. And let’s not pretend it’s anything other than nonsense in headphones.
Most consumers listen on phones. They couldn’t care less about atmos.
4got to mention the quadraphonic craze...lol
This is the same as 3D movies. It’s going to be “the next big thing” for a year or two. But most people want a stereo mix.
Atmos and Spacial is super exciting to me.
Exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you.
Hey unk, you gonna be at NAMM? My friend has a Atmos studio