So what exactly is NURBS modeling?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2021
- Let's discuss NURBS modeling and how it compares to poly-based modeling.
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In comparison with 2D creations Blender is like photoshop for raster painting and moi3d is like illustrator for vector designs
Nice video. As a 3D CAD guy, I use NURBS because its output is geared towards accuracy for mass manufacturing. My go to software is Rhino 3D NURBS / Sub-D modeller. I also use Blender as well, but for clients who requirement is visualisation, not manufacturing.
Where did you learn Rhino from? I'm considering using it but I don't see a lot of tutorials and guides compared to something like blender.
Way late on ny response here, but if you're still interested, Rhino is very user-friendly and intuitive; the user manual and website have tutorials to get you going. @diyguild1327
This also reminds me of Vector based vs Raster based workflow
Right
This is exactly what I was thinking!
Would love a basic modeling series on Moi
For the math nerds,
Polygons use matrices/matrix multiplication/arithmetic with coordinates internally. Which is linear algebra. You effectively define the points and link the points,
You can generally define these as matrixes using a,b,c terms.
[a b c...n].
There is an inherent level of direct manual control with these at the cost of inherently smoothness and accuracy.
NURBS are using matrices(and "Linear" Algebra) as well internally but their entries are not like polygon model entries.
NURBS effectively use *polynomials* around a spline using polynomial *interpolation*(if you animate in blender, you definitely know what this is).
Entries of NURB matrices look more like
[(a + bx^1 + cx^2 +.....+zx^n) (a + bx^1 + cx^2 +.....+zx^n) (a + bx^1 + cx^2 +.....+zx^n)]
Notices each of these entries technically has their own weights to form their curve. This makes them explicitly more accurate than polygons mathematically for curvatures because NURBS can successively add and reweigh each entry to increase accuracy as needed in an exponential matter around their "B-Splines". This makes them far more accurate. And generally easier to control from a user perspective.
The end result?
Per curve, we only need to store the weights, the power/exponent level, and the spline data. From cad, you can effectively only mess with the spline data to make things easier for you.
This also makes them easier to hold in memory for extreme curves vs polygons.
NURBS in one sense can be defined as *Piecewise* weighted Polynomials around a piecewise linear function.
This is why attaching nurb points can be...weird... at times. The entire polynomial has to be reweighted.
This is also why they cannot be easily animated/not animated at all. With polygons, you move points in space. With nurbs, you are having to completely recalculate chains of piecewise polynomials and weights.
If you want an example of what I mean by "piecewise polynomial", perform a boolean operation on a NURB model.
It doesn't cut the NURB usually. It instead produces another one!
NURB 1 exists as a function from (x1,y1,z1) to (x2, y2, z2). A boolean operation technically just *stops* that range/domain early, and inserts another NURB with it's own range/domain to fit what you want. It only worries about combining the weights at polygon conversion time.
This is also why converting a NURB to a polygon often generates a silly around of polygons/verts. In order to achieve "mathematical smoothness perfection" with polygons, you need ALOT of polygons to balance the weight distribution. So converting a system designed to be visually "perfect" in smoothness will naturally generate a high polycount.
Honestly though, in this day and age, many utilities you would find with nurbs can be applied directly to polygons. Nurbs are better for engineering and scientific analysis, as well as quick block out for curvature. I think there was a 3d VR sculpting software that exclusively used NURBS.
Although I would be careful if someone is a general animator using NURBS.
Never forget, NURBS are mathematical precise tools before they are modeling tools by definition. They are for engineers, mathematicians, and scientists. They are only for general modelers, game designers, and animators when they are *SKILLED* in how clean them up and operate them.
I recommend Rhino if you can somehow get a copy but Moi is a good choice as well.
Thanks for this! I was hoping to find a discussion of the benefits of nurbs for some situations.
It would be interesting if a tool could be developed that combines the benefits of each (polys and nurbs) and avoids the pitfalls of each.
Usually what happens with boolean operations is that the NURBS in fact stay the same, we just use so called trimming curves to "cut/trim" the input parameter space.
This means the following: Our Sphere is actually a NURBS Surface, so 2 NURBS Curves that span a surface using the tensor product. And within that Surface space we can put trimming curves that cut out regions of the surface space.
So you have a NURBS Surfaces that inputs 2 parameters, but outputs a 3D point: S(u,v) -> p(x,y,z). Then we define trimming curves, that input 1 parameter but output 2 coordinates in the NURBS Surfaces space. T(t) _> s(u,v). This means you define curves within the surface space, which then cut out regions of the NURBS. The NURBS is still fully there, you just tell the Renderer to not display the cut out regions. There is some very interesting stuff you can play around with this.
Roughly 10 years ago I wrote my bachelor thesis about an Algorithm that converts any NURBS into a piecewise combination of cubic bézier patches. This bézier patches can then be rendered and trimmed very efficiently on the GPU, since they have a fixed number of control points (and some other very powerful properties). This allows for some very cool stuff, for example seemingly Level of Detail transitions, because no CPU calculation time is required to change the LOD, since all the calculation happens on the GPU, by pre-storing some suiting sampling nets in the GPU Memory.
We used this approach to visualize Aircraft designs that are created using NURBS.
Nice Josh, it's definitely something I've been looking to get into, especially for those more free form and organic type of modelling, I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled for these types of tutorials, cheers mate!
So it's the 3D equivalent to a vector-based workflow?
Pretty much.
I've been using NURBS for years. I wish Blender would add full support for them . . .
Blender's NURBS will not be manufacturable because it cannot be export as STEP or IGES.
@@simpernchong Isn't it the other way around though?
@@simpernchong i use blender for 3d printing and also for CNC milling machine , have you tried to design with blender for manufacturing ?! coz eventually after designing in a NURBs system , you will have to convert it into G code which relays on both polygonal and NURBs definition mathematically, am i right here ?
I would love to see more Moi 3D videos!
me too
I get it, nurbs is just vector data vs polygons would be rasterized.
Exactly my thoughts as well! Adobe Illustrator vs Adobe Photoshop haha
Non-uniform rational basis spline (NURBS) is a mathematical model using basis splines (B-splines)
@@archiplanservices3746 yay, wikipedia!
@@kaustik185 absolutely so handy....
Beat me to it lol
Thank you so much for making this video. So stoked to own MOI. This really explained a lot of things for me. So cool watching you use MOI. I also just Love Blender. Thanks Josh.
Moi is awesome......different but super easy to use. Josh, you would be the perfect person to do tutorials for this tool. While easy to learn ,Moi can be a little confusing if you are only used to sub-d workflow. Glad to see you giving Moi some of your time!
glad to see you explaining this for the community ^^
Hey Mr. Gambrell; is there anyway I can export it as subdivided, like with the subdivision modifier in Blender but like after it's applied? I was mostly looking at this as way to make doing high polys much easier for hard surface stuff.
I’ve just become interested in NURBS due to playing with older programs (Bryce & infini-d) and Ive found it VERY difficult to find good learning resources. I’d love to know more about file formats and rendering engines for these programs. Thank you for covering this!
Great video. Yes, please. More Moi content. In particular, it would great to see how you use Moi and Blender together. Thank you.
Thanks for video. Can you show what buttons are you using?
hey Josh one question, is it efficient to use a NURB system to bake details into a low poly mesh?
So wouldn‘t it be absolutely great, to have access to such a thing in Blender (that’s what I’ve been thinking since over 5 years).
May I ask you, I want to make an embossed dish containing some booleans, and then I make a mold for it, which software do you recommend for this purpose.?
Something especially attractive about MOI is its very pretty onscreen renderer! :)
Thanks for this vid. I'd like to know more about what the benefits of mesh modeling are over nurbs modeling. EG, is it easier (for the programmers, at least) to apply materials to surfaces in a mesh software?
Can Moi3d handle large objects like architecture modeling scenes?
Great video Josh 😎 I already use Rhino 7 and it's SubD function so I can bring Blenders poly work and convert it to Burbs.
I have Moi and would love to see some tutorials on it.I still get into trouble with fillets in Nurbs on complicated shapes where they won't calculate and also trying to make solids out of surfaces where they won't join.
I gotta try this
Are you able to import those NURBS into Blender? If so, how does it look? Does it have the same smoothness?
Thanks for video🙂
Nice one Josh. Do you ever use a program like Moi to create models and then import into Blender. After experimenting I can see the cross over is pretty good. I find the precision of NURBS is fantastic, but do prefer the Blender workflow for rendering etc.
Cool video thanks. The point is, at the end, you have to convert the nurbs MOI "geo" into polygons for a game engine by example or for your HP. You will still end with the polygons problem for the HP ^^
Are there ways to mesh a nerds model?
Thanks Josh. More MOI info please.
We use Rhinoceros at the company I work for which is an extended version of MOI (Actually Rhino came first) but I can tell you modeling with nurbs makes thing sooooooooo easy, until you have to take things out of the software and need it to be polygons xD
Yup, I find poly based to simply be more efficient for me, with certain cases as exceptions.
yeah, exporting is the problem, i still struggle to export from rhino to blender, using the quad remesh and still not getting the expected result everytime
@@onerawartist Maybe look into buying Exoside remesh plugin. It's nearly the same remesher as Zremesh by the same guy with some differences.
Quad remesh is horrible.
@@truesoundwave i will check it out , thank you ^^. Im new to rhino and grasshopper i thought that was the only tool lol
@@onerawartist MoI have excellent export capability. Far from perfect, but better than other solid modelar. Usually I export as N-gons mess, and then slowly fix issues..... or simply get rid of Ngons in C4D, get little messy geometry, but shading is ok. and if you prepare modei in MoI, UV is very easy and fast.
So it's kinda what like vector graphics are to rasterized images? With vector graphics, there's a limit to how much detail you can realistically add though. What's the downside to nurbs modelling?
I combine softwares, I can make something in a few minutes on Rhino it will come super clean and exact. But you are right, you need another approach.
Sometimes I just start from scratch but even so is faster. Or another times Is easier to just grab some poliygons and move them than go back modify a curve and re project, extract and bevel something because of a little change.
But you can use both.Some elements poligonal and another nurbs and mix them.
How do you import iges files into Blender? Do you have to import as a poligonal object or is there a way to keep nurbs inside of Blender?
What's the relationship between nurbs and traditional blender with relation to exporting and importing? Can nurbs models be saved and imported as an OBJ or other format file for Blender and vice versa?
You can export nurbs and polygons as fbx files.
So, I was looking at MoI for what you said before; does it include things like array and screw which blender has? Does it export model as high poly ready for baking?
Yep, it has array, circular array, etc, more than Blender has actually. Mesh export is based on your triangle count. You can make it as low or high poly as you'd like (for rounded surfaces, lower triangle exports will yield faceted edges).
@@JoshGambrell On export for high polys, the shading will always be right? Mainly I'm looking for something to make the high polys to bake to low easier. I may get this at some point in the future if it will alleviate the difficulty of making support/control edges and all that while still working enough to make things to bake off of.
Aeaeaeaaeaeaeeaa finally!!!! SOMETHING ABOUT NURBS!!!! I'm reading and watching about Nurbs.... And I think NURBS is a great option sometimes....
Nurbs is a greater option, but only if you have to make files for 3D printing (infinite resolution is way better than subdivision for smoother surfaces). However, if it is animation or something else, welcome to the life of eternal misery.
@@dev.swarnakar in my world legit all products or cars come as Nurbs/CAD for animation or render. I personally never encounter poly modeling for animation unless it’s something abstract maybe. But I usually just render real world stuff.
I've owned MOI3D since version 3 and now have ver 4. Love MOI3D as well as 3D Coat. Would love to see more MOI3D stuff. Michael Gibson who created MOI3D was one of the original developers for Rhino3D. Cheers from Nova Scotia...
MOI3D also creates the cleanest wireframe when exporting to .obj for example... All other apps create a "triangle mess" while MOI3D can use quads or ngons and it just make your life 1000% easier when you need to retopology later in blender.
Im new to NURBS and im very curious about it.
so can you guys give me a good example on what NURBS Modeling Exel at?
like in my head i feel like making Hyper-Realistic Objects with Nurbs would be a Great Choice
but from the comments, it looks like Poly Count is much less of a Headache to do.
3D Printing is one of the things i heard from the comments its a good choice. any other things?
Need more video on moi3d
Hey man, I’m just wondering, could you make a tutorial on making a guitar? There aren’t many good tutorials for that.
Also, great video, I learn something new every time I watch your videos
What about if i want to export as 3d model ???
So basically, raster graphics vs vector graphics.
Modeling in CAD and then bringing the model into Blender, would that be a good workflow?
You can definitely use both softwares.
Always wanted to get into this kind of modeling since I saw Vitaly Bulgarov using this in one of his older videos
Will this ever be implemented in games?
i want to learn more kind of modeling beside polygons modeling but i dont know what there name is !?!
So NURBs vs Blender is kind of like vector vs bitmap (rasterized).
Did you use RhinoCeros for nurbs modelling in comparison with Moi3D?
Maybe simple is better, I get lost with all those Rhino control icons ...
@@clausbohm9807 It's pretty simple if spend some time to grasp but it has many useful tools.
broo I literally got your Material ad in your video lol
Very cool video for those who are new to NURBS. Also, to use this video as a drinking game, take a drink everytime Josh says "infinite."
I had really like to know if this can be used as a game asset. (Exported as obj Or something)
Yup, export as fbx or obj
This is a very bad idea to export directly as an OBJ into a game engine.
Nurb conversions produce extremely un-optimal meshes for real time performance as polygon models.
It would need to be extremely optimized first in another program.
Well you don’t export directly of course, you would go nurbs -> poly -> optimize -> game engine
@@JoshGambrell oh oke. Thanks a lot man
will this nurbs model makes automotive design easy? and this nurbs model make render simple?
Please give an example? Because during the video I was really just asking myself "Okay that's really cool but what is it used for?"
You can make your HP in MOI but you still end to convert it into polygons for baking ^^ That's an example.
For example Rhino (which is nurbs) is the go to industrial design software. Together with keyshot. And like usually in car design you would go from a poly model (sketch even tho it's already a lot of work) to sth with nurbs (more accurate) to the final step which is Strak software (for example Alias).
It's used of CAD modeling. For example, when you need 3D blueprint of a car, or some mechanics and this kinda of stuff. Not like cool model, but actual blueprint, which will give you information about every point of it's surface. Or some parts. And this kind of stuff.
its a must when you need precision, real life stuff, production , cnc machines , 3D printing .. etc.
thats when you need as much precision as you can get, and polygons can't provide that
You got nurbs lines and surfaces on blender. I'm trying to figure out if one can do cad/cam with it. You gotta keep meshes out of your workflow for sure.
look into something called plasticity. its standalone and designed for blender familiar users and easy to use much easier than moi. evolving now pretty fast
Thanks for the video. I went from modo to Alias and like you said you have to forget everything you know about poly modelling to learn nurbs. They are worlds apart and each have their own merits and applications. For making real cars though Alias is still king.
I learned Alias during university and I was used to Nurbs modelling...Switching to Blender is proving to be quite traumatic! 😂😂
Moi3D is beautifully simple and intuitive to use, however it is pretty expensive.
Fusion 360 on the other hand can be used completely free (with just a few limitations) and has a more expansive toolset more geared towards precision modeling.
I'm most interesting to see how you deal with export meshes using Moi, especially how to do high and low poly for game assets
Obj format for example, Moi3D as an advanced Obj exporter.
Well. Usually you don't do this stuff. But you can try to export it to MaYa (I wonder, would it work in Blender?), then do retopo, like with sculpting. %) Well, you can try to convert these to polygons, but you'll usually get complete mess. But as I've said, you use this type of software for other things. Like CAD.
@@Soulskinner Hi,
Yes it works pretty well in Blender and for the geo, i agree with you about the necessary retopo step.
@@archiplanservices3746 Hi. XD
I'm just not sure that Blender supports all these NURBS surfaces. But I've thought that this software can export objects as Poly objects.
You can export from Moi3D in Obj format of course then import in Blender. There's even a bridge between both softwares called BMoi3D Connector get it here : github.com/TitusLVR/BMOI_Connector
something like plasticity sounds great to get a shape then go to blender and run it through quad remesher. i guess that might work
is there any way to somehow convert cad models into polygon models
Sure, export as fbx.
Oldschool blender sometimes dies on fbx, especially from MOI.
Best solution still MOI for the average user. But there is also FreeCAD, Fusion360, Alias, Rhino, VRED, DeltaGen and even Blender Addons for direct import. I think C4D also imports CAD directly.
.step is the most common CAD exchange format.
@@DamianMathew Hello, what is the name of the addon used for importing .step in Blender? I've found STEPper on Gumroad but is there also an addon which comes with Blender?
Rhino is awesome. They kinda invented geometry nodes with Grasshopper too (if math/procedural/parametric is your thing). Of course Blenders Geo-Nodes is gonna be more for motion graphics though.
so NURBS models are kinda like the Vector image of 3D modeling?
So this is analogous to svg or vector graphics. Sounds cool af
Can you use Nurbs models in a game engine? Can this be used for character animation?
You can't, I think it was the reason why nurbs were cast aside in the entertainment industry and it went all in on polygons.
What about nurbs modeling in Blender?
While I see the appeal of a smooth model, a low-poly one is more of my style. My strategy is to have the angular edges work into the art direction.
It's like vector graphics, you draw a curve and the computer is doing some math to decide what it looks like at every resolution. Thats why your logos and stuff should be made in a vector fromat so they can be put on a mug, a t-shirt or a billboard without losing detail :P (also i havent been involved in 3d modeling in like 20 years cuz I joined the army BUT I remember maya having nurbs options as well - dunno about now a days)
Freecad's underlying modeller is nurbs based but it would be better if blender had a nurbs workspace
Did you try Plasticity?
Wonder why are there some "NURB" object in blender?
If you can, I really wish get more knowledge of this Bay you
nice !
can you put a video to compare zbrush and mol3d also
One is a CAD software other is sculpting software. I don't know how you can compare them.
zbrush you can add a high subdivision and mol3d you can't see the subdivision
@@sevenseven31 because there's nothing to subdivided, the curves and surfaces would be interpolated the same way in a NURBS tool, unless you change the newly made curves in some way.
Maybe I'm unable to understand what you mean, so can you please clarify?
i mean the concept is same as photoshop and illustrator but for polygon modeling
funny to see a video about this topic from you after I discovered NURBS modeling myself two days ago. I wanna get more into Arch Viz and I found out a lot of companies and people use NURBS modeling for that. Now, I am feeling ambivalent about what I should focus on. Does someone have any experience with this?
Archviz is rendering, not necessarily modeling.
Oldschool Architects only work in 2D so you need to model for Archviz. In this case it doesn’t matter if poly or nurb, just needs to be quick and look good.
Modern architects work fully in 3D, so no modeling needed for the render guy. All the render guy needs to do is focus on interior design, light, materials or what ever.
@@DamianMathew oh hey Mathew, so you don't just respond to your own videos. I appreciate that. :)
Would you say I should focus more on rendering, lighting, design, etc. instead of modeling?
@@redjohn4886 I’m everywhere haha
to be honest, do what’s fun. That’s what you will get best at. But one thing I can tell you: a modeler from my experience is easier to replace. Also a modeler more likely will work with other 3D guys (lower budget). A render guy can shine with his unique style and also sell pictures instead of models wich helps working directly with a client (bigger budgets). But that’s really just my personal opinion. I’m sure people will also think the opposite.
@@DamianMathew Thanks, man!
Josh eres un genio ;p
I have Moi, payed a lot for it, rarely use it, because I found it extremely buggy and they haven't updated it in eons. Too bad really cause it's like working in SketchUp but you can do amazing organic shapes.
Moi3D cost 295$ for a full version and 99$ for a student, so yes compare to Blender (without paid addons) it's expensive ^^^
Moi3D forum is one the most active on the web and the developer answers to any questions. Moi3D v4 final has been released in 2020 with new features like subd, have in mind that Michael Gibson is on in own to develop the software so yes it takes time for new releases but on the other hand so stable with no bugs except the hacked Moi3D versions you find on the net.
Is it possible to bring such a nurbs object to Blender? Import?
Yup, it will be converted in to polygons. Just export as .fbx file.
@@JoshGambrellincorect .... then you get what? What do you get after conversation. Please don't talk about things you don't understand ... first learn then teach ... Check what is A class surfacing and then you will understand maybe after few years why it's used .... Learn in day or two ... Yea right ... What a joke 🤣 ... Google ICEM surf
@@fatalerrorst He specified that it would be converted into a polygon model so we don't need your arogance he didn't say anything wrong
@@fatalerrorst "then you get what?"
You get a polygon model that you can unwrap and texture as you wish and integrate it into a scene for a 3D rendering or use it as an asset for a video game. Do you have any other questions?
@@fatalerrorst CAD guys are the biggest haters wow haha. It’s like ploy guys are the hippies of 3D and CAD guys are the real 3D guys that went to Uni and have a certificate haha. Love it
But yes it can be more complex than just converting to fbx, but still josh is not wrong.
Small correction: Not quite infinite. While it _is_ precise enough that you won't have to worry about it, floating point numbers have limits.
Otherwise, great video.
Blender already has support for NURBS and metaballs, though they are limited to a fixed resolution (just like curves), and they don't support booleans. It would be very cool if Blender could change them to be infinite resolution and support booleans.
They are also called Nurbs in Blender but it’s really not comparable to real CAD Software.
the next level of lessons is Rhinoceros 3D?
thought blender have new nurbs option...
but moi3d ...sharpr3d is cool have great bevel option...
I've been learning fusion 360 lately after spending around 6 years with Blender. It's very satisfying to use nurbs software when it comes to stuff like filleting/beveling boolean operations.
Nurbs software can be a great addition to your polygonal arsenal as it makes creating certain shapes just so easy and a lot of the time you don't even need to retopologize its results. But I definitely understand what you're talking about in terms of polygonal software being better to model in. Most advanced shapes are easier to create in polygonal software as you have a lot more tools at your disposal. And in my opinion you have a lot more control of the shape as well. I don't know how much knowledge you have within the image editing field, but Photoshop and Illustrator are definitely a great analogy for this.
More MoI3D please!
u are doing same design, another software! will be cool to watch !
solidworks is beast of all cad nurbs software
So, Nurbs is to Polygon the same as vector is to raster, got it!
Cool
so why should i model with polygons ?
Imagine sculpting in such software..
but blender has nurbs. can I do the same thing with blender?
Unfortunately not, because Blender NURBS don't support booleans, and they have a fixed resolution.
@@SchemingGoldberg I checked it shortly after writing this comment, you're right.
This is an opportunity to make a lot of money by making an addon for nurbs
Its basically a vector image but for 3d
I wonder if NURBS will ever make it to video games and animation.
Yes. But only to save money, not because it’s better. Better is to remodel the thing, but mostly it’s cheaper to just convert it and auto retopo it. Also anything like a tree you can’t really do in NURBS.
I used to make 3D CAD with solidworks. One of the best tools to make mechanical systems I ever used. Catia is cool too. But god can it be frustrating !
If you make simple systems without much curves, it's ok. But when you get on the big stuff, you wish that you could commit sudoku.
Josh.... Can we "blend" the two techniques? And about the Nurbs surfaces in blender? Nobody talk about this.... Why?!
Sure can! I do it occasionally. I might make a vid on it
because blenders "nurbs" is garbage as of now. I dont understand why someone would use nurbs for cgi work where accuracy is not so important, for cad and making things in real world nurbs make sense but not with this type of software you would wanna use freecad, solidworks
@@mitri5389 don't underestimate Moi3D my friend, Michael Gibson the developer of Moi3D and Rhino3D in it's early stage intend to create a powerful software without a messy ui and affordable.
It looks simple but so powerful at the end, so the only way to discover that is to use it intensively knowing what your talking about.
@@archiplanservices3746 no point in learning that
@@paulcg7566 It's intuitive ^^
Throughout the last couple years of getting back into 3D, I haven't heard ANYONE mention NURBS. I kind of assumed it had died at some point in the last 20 years.
just my 50p in favour of Blender... you can use Nurbs curves and Nurbs surfaces in Blender. You have also primitives for it!
NURBS are the vector graphics of the 3D-world. And like vector graphics they are good in their special field of application.
I normally work on both. Bevels and cuts are way cleaner. Shapes are way faster to create. And with the curves to mesh add-in you can drop it to blender and create the desired shape inside blender. The details are amazing. Even exporting to obj your loss percentage it is not perceived so much in rendering. Now... You'll have to work harder if you want to make that model game ready. Blender will just chopp it like a butcher... But... your ideas don't have limits.