That fire suppressant is no joke, Restaurant managers should know that. Once, I had to yell at a chef on the phone so he could realize the stupidity of him having the cooks cooking while the exhaust fans were down and my coworker was on site investigating the problem.
@@chargehanger Then the whole place burns down, and ... no more restaurant. Then *nobody* is happy. Oh, well, too bad, so sad. Take this shit *seriously* folks - there are no second chances. Especially in as low-margin a business as food service.
Welcome to Managers. You could tell them it'll burn the building down, but the owner is dumber than them, so they'll press the manager to keep the money flowing. Its ridiculous and sad.
I had a hotel main kitchen range exhaust hood with flames rolling out one afternoon and the fusible links had not triggered the ansul. With everyone standing around trying to decide what to do, I immediately went to the main ansul control panel, pulled the safety pin and smashed that like button! It ruined the dinner, but we still had a hotel to work at the next day.
did anyone try a large rated fire extinguisher first? it may have snuffed it out if not super major, if not hammer the fire suppression system quickly. both would have been costly, one costing far more than the other (but still less than a building/life loss). the old deer in headlights scenario, panic situation and many people freeze up and stare with awe. I'm more the type that jumps into instant motion, but we all freeze for short periods at times. just yesterday I managed to catch two lightbulbs someone had placed inside in the middle of a wound up extension cord onto a shelf 7' high overhead. I grabbed the cord and pulled it off the shelf unknowingly. my eyes registered them and I caught both a CFL and incandescent bulb in left hand, with right hand pulling the cord off shelf. more or less a miracle and pure luck 🤣
I worked in a mill once that had a fire and the fusible links did not trip. Turns out some fool had replaced the fusible links with tie wire. The fire marshal damn near exploded he was so mad when he found the tie with. That cost the mill big time I heard.
@@davidhenderson3400 years ago, "standard procedure" after a fire trip would be to solder the two halves of the links back together. depending on the type of solder, that could actually change the link's trip temperature.
@@davidhenderson3400 right, they cannot trip when safety wired open! I'd not be sure if it was maintenance or a hood/exhaust cleaning crew. because safeties are for sissies! 🤣🤣
Hearing that they kept cooking while their exhaust fans were down, reminds me of a tidbit of building code from Germany: you need to install solenoid valves into the gas main of kitches (if natural gas is used for the oven etc.) that are interlocked with the exhaust system. If correctly installed and maintained you can not cook if the exhausts are down. It is not necessary for kitchens that run solely on electricity though.
There's also a similar-kind rule for household fireplaces and exhaust systems. You're not allowed to have the exhaust running without having a window open. Otherwise the exhaust will cause an underpressure, pulling air through the chimney into the room. And when the fire is on, all that toxic carbon monoxide will now be in your room. Pretty interesting how things unsuspectingly may influence each other.
Same here in the UK ... had to replace one the other day, it had quite an interesting calibration routine, 2 current transformers, (for 2 stage fans), you set the upper and lower boundary ratings, if the fan jams, the current goes up, and also trips the gas off, as well as no / low current conditions.
many places have that in USA, but only newer construction places. most are sadly just tied to the fire suppression system and only go off after it trips! personally, I think they should all have building and duct pressure sensing that alarms and shuts them down far before an issue that can trip fire suppression occurs. but that may not work in all cases, especially if indoor wood fired grill/ovens and things that stay hot for long periods.
Sometimes you may have to explain the what and why to managers. Telling them to stop cooking, but not telling them what could happen if they don't, may not be clear to the manager. In my line of work, I always explain "stop doing this because this bad thing could happen if you don't". If they choose to not listen afterwards, its all on them.
Sounds good, but after over 30 years in my profession.... No. Some managers will listen, most won't. I have had the red lockout locks cut off a panel. I've had people walk outside the house to the main shut-off and try to turn it back on - then come back with bolt cutters when they see we've locked it. I've had situations where I had to post an apprentice in front of the panel (and made sure it was one of our biggest, meanest looking men) and they've gotten into fist-fights with chads who weren't interested in reason. It's unfortunate, but your reasoning, however well meant, doesn't work with far too many people.
@@ethelryan257 I have never needed to use a lockout tag, but I believe the correct response to someone removing one is to pack up your tools and LEAVE. Don't put anything back together. As soon as the tag is removed you're not supposed to be working there. Use a voltage detector with audible alarm, and clip it to a power line. The moment it starts beeping, it's time to down tools.
I'm reminding to that doctor story about cleaning one's eyes out with boiled water "look at me when I tell you water that has been boiled and since cooled, not boiling water, do you understand"
Having worked in fast food myself, it’s not surprising at all that the restaurant kept operating with the broken exhaust fans even though you told them not to. I once worked somewhere that had the AC fail on a record high day (like 112F, which is abnormally hot for the PNW). I was in the drive thru, which was essentially a green house attached to the building directly next to all the warmers and a large freezer that was all contained in the drive thru (I.e. the condensing unit was in there too). At one point, it was 125F in the drive thru. Management wouldn’t allow us to open the doors because of health code, and also wouldn’t close the drive thru even though we were about to pass out. They didn’t care, they were home in their AC-ed house. If I wasn’t a dumb teenager who was desperate for the job at the time, I’d have at least closed down the drive thru, if not the entire restaurant. No customers wanted to stay in the building anyway since it was basically cooler outside. I’m glad nobody had any medical issues as a result, but I almost wish someone did because it would have served the management right to get stuck with the expenses and lawsuits related to it. Restaurant management, particularly franchised restaurants that have managers with no ownership of the restaurant, care only about money. The employees are basically just slaves. I’m sure management of this place didn’t give a second though about the kitchen employees inhaling smoke and oil vapor for hours as long as they didn’t have to shut down the restaurant on their shift.
Chris, your propane danger sign reminds me, we have one on our propane rack at work that reads, "No Smoking Propane" , with no punctuation. Apparently one could smoke anything but the propane. I mentioned this to a coworker, and they said that it's hard to keep propane in a pipe, so it would be hard to smoke it. Another guy said that if one could keep it in a pipe, the fuel would smoke the one lighting it.😁
I was a professional chef for years. Two times in my carrier the exhaust system failed. One thing that you did not bring up is that the kitchen will quickly become over 100F. And then 120F. Any restaurant that would stay open in a situation like that is nuts. Your customer was foolish. An You are a wonderful Professional. I really like this upload :) :) :)
I'm a chef myself and I had to work in a kitchen without working fans once. I told the manager/boss that I'm out when he's not fixing these fans. It's been a room temperature of 43°C (in the coldest area / in the plating area at the front it's been 52°C) - way too high for any human being to be in there for at least 8 hours... he called the fan company right there and the next day they were there to tell the boss that he needs everything replaced because it's been so old, there are no spare parts available. This place was closed for a week "due to important renovations" and after that we had a maximum of 34°C in that kitchen - way better and for a kitchen these temperatures are normal.
Different subject, but I had a customer say the unit was dripping water through the ceiling, it was inside the attic. I told her to turn it off and it would be a couple of days before I can get there. When I got the entire sheetrock ceiling had fallen inside the living room. And it was still running dripping water.
I imagine that the reason they ignored you when you told them to stop cooking is because their manager told them to. Every minute that the employees aren't working and feeding customers is lost money for these guys. A lot of managers with little to no integrity often place profits over safety or even common sense, which tends to lead to a lot of accidents in workplace environments. Then again, this is just me thinking this and I can be entirely wrong.
Your not wrong I worked in a kitchen years ago that used both electric and gas, the fans went down and the manager told us to keep working even though I could smell gas, I walked out of the job that day but a few weeks later there was a kitchen fire, yep the gas leak got worse and he did nothing about it. Was glad I walked of the job, no job is worth me getting injured ever.
On the East Coast if the Ansul system trips it also trips main breakers in the electrical panels that feed the kitchen. It also shuts down the gas main feeding the kitchen.
Good morning. My only critique is I would have replaced the liquid tight and wires going to the motor and run both into the bottom of the disconnect. Enjoy your videos. Be safe out there.
...you can add a "me too" to the replace the liquid tight and run both in the bottom. Our power company even makes everyone use conduit from the top side of their meter bases because they have had waaaaaaay too many service calls relating to water running down the wire coming into the meter, and shorting them out or catching them on fire.
Many of those switches actually have a small punch-out area that you can punch out to let water out. That's useful if there's a high risk of condensation inside the casing.
I am a hood fire suppression system repair specialist. Not only are they lucky as hell it didn't go off, but the potassium acetate that an Ansul system dumps is at least a day if not more of serious clean up. I've had low pro hoods pop a 500° link over a frier multiple times in the same restaurant because they didnt use the fan system.
Personally, I’d have made both holes on the bottom of the switch. Having it on top increases odds of water getting into the box. Coming in from the bottom, we’ll water is not going to go up into the box. I do a lot of wiring at a food factory and so I have to deal with a wash down environment of all the industrial machines. The last thing I want to do in make a hole on the top of a electrical panel or box if I don’t have to. Instead, loop around to the bottom instead. The rare times I do have to come in from the top, I’ll use sealer to better seal. I just had to replace a PLC because of the power coming in from the top. I opened the box with it filled with a bunch of water. Something that came that way. I used sealer on the fitting and replaced the PLC. Replacing the box and changing how the power comes in wasn’t an option.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, some local electrical codes REQUIRE bottom entry with "drip loops" for wet areas - absolutely best practice. But in this case, I understand the stress of getting the fan running for the hot kitchen.
When putting stranded wires into a screw down fitting, aren't you supposed to use hollow ferrule over the strands? EDIT: Some screw downs have a flat plate the screw pushes on, not the screw tip right on the wire... If this switch has that feature, then bare strands are OK. I see both kinds of screw downs these days, and keep ferrules in stock for the times they are needed when we are doing electrical work. It would be educational for the viewers if you could cover this detail. We also use dielectric grease, smear it all over the bare wire before insertion, that produces a moisture and oxygen barrier to keep corrosion next to zero over the passing of time. New switch looks great! END EDIT
I have learned from some old electricians to always try to pull the wires from the underside of the disconnect. This way there is less chance of water entering the box. Also, European style outdoor breakerbox can be used with a breaker as a disconnect switch. This way there is a protected disconnect. And it will be like each fan is on a seperate circuit.
In case you dont know. I had a technician read the manual for the disconnect switch (here they are called safety switches) and there is a small hole, ment as a water drain. Though it wont be safe from a short, it shouldent allow the water to stay inside and create a short on the buttom. also it keeps the IP rating
Having a conduit entering a water tight box on the top just seems wrong. Seems it would be better if all the wiring enters the box from the bottom or, at least, on the sides.
Yes, it seems he could have easily made that existing conduit go in on the side. I would have also drilled a tiny hole in the bottom to let any potential moisture buildup have a way of escaping and not slowly pooling.
I try and watch all the stuff you post! Just when you think you know it all you can always grow while watching another pro do his thing! I really appreciate you taking the time to create these videos for everyone!
When I was in high school I worked at a restaurant where the exhaust fans went down and they kept cooking. The fire sprinkler went off and flooded their kitchen. The restaurant went from nearly full to nearly empty over the course of 10 minutes once the fire alarm started going off (there was never a fire, so we didn't evacuate, but people understandably get antsy when an alarm is blaring). It took them a few days to clean up the mess and get the kitchen fully working again.
Code required fused disconnects in Michigan for years. Most Rooftop units with any age has them. Your point about Phasing is well received and you see it occur all the time round here on poorly maintained equipment.
Interesting. Is there a way to appeal code? Most stuff I do doesn't have serious codes around it so I'm not familiar with the codes and keeping up to date with them.
@@AKStorm49 Could have been the Unwritten Code that the AJHs cite all the time in Lansing Michigan. It is not common anymore but was done up until 2000's round here. The inspectors do what they can to harass the small Non-Unions and give the Union Contracts slick pass.
@@AKStorm49 I was recently ordered by City of Lansing to hire a plumber and pull plumbing permit to install condensate drain on commercial mini-split going into sump crock and being pumped on the law. I even showed them the manual whereas the Manufacture said specifically only licensed installers are allowed to install the piping networks on their HVAC equipment. It did not matter.
Actually - he was supposed install the overload protection at the time of repair, in the same enclosure possibly. Overload would have taken care of possible single phasing. Also every motor branch supposed to have separate short circuit and ground fault protection ( fuses or breakers). In my opinion this wiring is in violation of the NEC, and that building doesn’t look that old.
when you mount conduits to boxes, that are mounted outside, never run them through the top... Water WILL find its way in... ALWAYS! Go to the bottom and drill a small hole on the bottom as a emergency drain! And check, if the products are UV resistant. If not, the plastic will get hard and crack. And i dont know, how you handle this in america... but we in germany clamp on core end sleeves on flexible wires.
My dad accidentally tripped the fire suppression system in a Coney Island restaurant a friend of his owned by accidentally cutting a cable that activated it. Fortunately it occurred while the place was undergoing renovation before opening.
Many Fire suspression systems have a "dead-man" switch type circuit. If any part is damaged , cut, broken, etc. they go off. Can be very important to shut off the system , before you unplug or replace any part of it. I know cases where people disconnect one sensor to replace it, and POOF! Baby powder everywhere. LOL Actaully it is some type of Halon. But it defintely makes a mess and coats everything, and is hard to clean up, much like baby powder. It kinda sticks.
I've had those ansul fuseable links fail after I've told them to shut it down while I work. Depending on the hood application the links can be anywhere from 160-460 they make higher for solid fuel and pizza oven hoods. Whenever we are doing hood repairs we have in the quote that customer agrees to not have cook line in operation during repairs just to cover ourselves for when they ignore our verbal warning not to cook. That chemical suppression stuff is brutal and you're guaranteed to be closed several days at minimum if it goes off. That's why we push the more high end hood fire suppression system that uses a good grade degreaser called a surfactant and a ton of water to put out kitchen fires. If it goes off you can wipe everything down, refill the surfactant reservoir and get back to cooking within hours.
Water is NOT USED in suppression systems unless you have an Ansul Piranha system installed, which the water is used to flush out the piping, vent hood, and appliances due to the high alkyiline content of the chemical fluid.
@@HVACRVIDEOS yes it has battery back up for the entire controls that can last several hours (12 to 16) the batteries keep charged and recharge when normal power is applied. It's one of the things we have to check when doing a commissioning
6:15 I highly suggest using ferrules. It not only improves your contact and its lifetime but it also penetrates oxide layers on old cables when you crimp it 8:32 Ferrules also come with a plastic cone at the end so it's basically physically impossible to pinch the insulation. I have tried to pinch the cone on purpose just to see if I can but it just pulls the end back in place. 8:39 Ferrules also fix that. At this point they come out cheaper than your labour for not using them lol
Agreed. Crimped connector are always best for stranded... I also would've re-made the whip for the motor so that both ends came on bottom of box to prevent future issues... Can't get water in from the bottom.
good evening. When you were installing the new switch, is it not up to code to make both wires to run to the box from bottom? Let's say left would be incoming power, right would be feeding the fan. I.E. to eliminate possibility of making gates for rain from up the box
Two things.#1 The standardized NEC Color code for 208v~ is 1-black 2-red 3-blue. And Brown, orange, yellow for 480v~ and obviously the feed coming from the power source was counter clockwise, that's why you had to reverse it in the switch. #2 you should always try to put line side voltage to the TOP of all switches and disconnects. Although it doesn't matter for some types of switches, it does for disconnects. And it's just good practice.
As an electrician from Germany i find it crazy that you are not using ferrules. It would prevent the ends to flare up (no jacked up cable ends) + a better electrical more secure connection. And the additional costs are minimal. You can get decent crimp tools (hexagonal crimp) for a fair price (does not have to be a 150-200$ AMP, Knipex, Weidmüller one).
I find it crazier hes not even twisting his wire ends. Ferrules cause more fires than you think due to improperly crimping them. We only use them on flexible cables, never on fixed wiring.
I once electrically connected a gas security system for a 20 square meter Asian kitchen. No working exhaust air (differential pressure switch) no gas to cook. 3 8kW gas burners.
Hello, In Australia we use a lot of the plastic style isolation switches. I would have put both cables into the box from the bottom, much better form maintaining IP66 keep in mind 100mm or 4in of rain per day is the norm in summer. The ansul fire wire I have seen comes in a few different fuse temps, 350deg C is the most common but will change to meet the fire risk level determined by the fire risk assessment and the building code.
Cant fix stupid.....if there ever was a more accurate statement....for some people....im not aware of it. Money seems to be put above all else and common sense goes right out the window. Great message Chris.
USA knife switch style isolators/switches are much the same as what we used in Australia in the 1930's; over here top entry into an isolator is banned due to the possibility of water ingress. Plastic rotary isolators are far better than the crap metal ones I see in most US videos
For those in the UK wanting a bootlace ferrule crimping tool and crimps, LIDL have had them in recently, for £20 you get a 4 jaw ratchet crimper and a decent amount of different sizes of insulated crimps. Seems decent quality and the supplied crimps go to decent sizes.
3:30 Interesting, did you know that Home Depot sells a Milwaukee Impact Unibit so you can make a hole with your impact drill? It’s a little expensive but a good impact drill attachment.
You mention single phase running problems a lot. Now I'm curious, here in Europe we have devices that can monitor the phases, and will trip if one or multiple have problems. Therefore, you can't have those single phase running problems and it will give protection to high peak voltages. Don't you have those in the US? Or are they too expensive to install as a prevention method? The 3-phase switch you installed looks like a Europe version indeed. We're not allowed to use metal boxes or conduits by code. This is to prevent it from becoming electrically charged, if something in it becomes damaged and touching the box or conduit.
@@mrlescure because every mfg is trying to make a cheaper product so they can sell more. Salesmen make money selling things. Phase monitors protect equipment. Almost all the equipment i work on has phase monitors.
Phase monitors are little bit pricey, but regular overload protection would have taken care of the single phasing problem. I have no idea why HVAC and Ventilation industry allowed to get away with this crap! Everywhere else, code by NEC about overload protection and motor branches - is strictly enforced!
They have them. In my area, the icm401 is a low cost phase protection system for hvac control. It's $30-$40 and basically kills control voltage if there's a phase loss or surge.
@@jacobfoxworth And when doing a lot of pump & control work for agriculture, phase reversals upstream in the boondocks are not as rare as we would like them to be, and the phase protection relay (s) will drop out the starter coil voltage when they sense various line anomalies. Detection of unbalanced phase voltages, with adjustable high and low voltage limits, is available in some protection relays. I would order Dayton brand from Grainger, which were identical to the same relay with Square D branding, at a third of the cost. A full featured phase protection relay could be had for around $40 and up. (Time frame = 1980s - 2010 ish.) Another popular brand of these was TimeMark, coming in at about the price ranges, and with a no questions asked, lifetime replacement warranty, requiring only the registration of a relay's serial number and returning the dead unit (although) they did not always require a return. Justifying the absence of these relays because of their added cost, versus the damage frequently seen in a motor control installation lacking them is a fool's wet dream at best.
I can just imagine the many jobs that need to be done since Covid. Even though there was restaurants closed for a time I suspect the maintenance was not maintained as regular as before.
Some of the older ansul units are manually activated that I've been around and the fusible links usually have a color coding for the temperature that they will melt out and set off the unit
I have been in the Electrical / Electronics field for decades, and this switch through me with it's power in on the botom and power out on the top. What I take away from this is to check the markings on every switch. Granted I have never installed a 3 phase switch before, but I have now been edified and will look at the markings on every switch. My brain tells me that electrically it shouldn't matter, but I'm sure there is a reason, probably code if I don't miss my guess.
If you are installing these fans I think it would be worth it to take some tape, like painter's tape, and cover the label with the tape. That way, after they have been there that long, you could just peel the tape off and have a clean label to get information off of in the future.
If you do this, just make sure there isn’t adhesive right against the labels, because even painters tape sticks pretty aggressively after 6 months, let alone 2-3 years down the road. I’ve tried removing painters tape off fire tags on doors and pulled the printed layer of the sticker off with it.
@@MultiPureEnergy Good to know. Maybe put a piece of plastic over the label and then tape it down. Or maybe tape some tape the size of the label to a bigger square of tape then tape the non-sticky side of the tape down so it covers the label.
There is a "low tack" version of Kapton tape that's intended for PCB rework that's really good for applications like this - it uses an acrylic adhesive that remains easy to remove even when it's been subjected to sustained heat.
I'm a night manager at a grocery store. One of the service deli clerks managed to start a fire in the fryer by turning it on before all the oil was in place, and somehow managed to bypass the safeguards. As the deli manager put it, the fryer was smarter than the employee. Fortunately we use pressure fryers so the fire was extinguished by closing the lid, but I don't think they believed me about how damn lucky they were that the fire suppression didn't deploy. We've already had issues from the fire marshall including the nozzles not being centered over the vats. But from what you're saying recovering from fire suppression is a bigger issue than I realized.
I was going to ask why would it matter if they didn't stop cooking but you answered it don't know if I would install a automatic fire suppression system if I could get away with it
When you install a redundant fused disconnect like that one on the second fan you looked at, can you replace the fuses with a bus bar or otherwise jumper the terminals, or is that a huge no-no?
rhkips, Perhaps for testing purposes only, under very controlled conditions, like direct supervision of a qualified electrician and/or engineer, a trained safety observer, using proper PPE, the application of common sense, and for a defined purpose and with time of the connection limited to absolute minimums. Never when said links might be left unattended. Basically yes, a very bad idea, but doable if necessary when all provisions for safely doing it are undertaken. Certain kinds of testing are necessary to ensure the long term safe and efficient operation of electrical equipment. Take nothing for granted.
Been through that circus when the Fire Suppression system gets activated. It was a manual pull but still the entire restaurant (this was a diner) gets the powder on everything to one extent or another. We had to basically remove all movable furniture and soup & hot water clean it all, the ceiling, walls, floor scrubbed and waxed (waxed to be sure that any suppressant residue was not able to get airborne. Everything in the reach-ins had to be tossed as per Health Regs. It was considered contaminated and unsafe for sale and consumption. Then the coolers all needed to be scrubbed and swabbed to be sure no suppressant residue was in the trackways for the doors. Not even counting the inspection time for every one that had to make one, cleanup itself took days. The diner was closed for close to a week and that was considered to be fast.
those conduit nuts are fairly soft metal. I never worry about which screwdriver I'm using, as long as it's a flat head. they wont damage the hardened steel of the screw driver
It would help quite a bit, even with that new plastic box, even drilling the hole on the side of that box for the fan wiring to go through, rather than going through the top again would prevent a possible repeat of this problem....people that go up and change HVAC filters, and other regular work on the roofs are very hard on everything, they pull on stuff, lean on stuff, etc. that's most likely how that knock out got broke in the first place, someone up there with a hose probably washing out filters or something of that nature, and got the hose wrapped around it other otherwise and just yanked on the hose, or tossed the hose around and busted that knock out, but of course we know that they'd never fess up to it LOL.
I was at this restaurant which had the toilets above the kitchen. Multiple floors. And someone left a tap running. It overflowed and flooded the kitchen through the roof. And staff just kept working with water dripping everywhere, from the toilets. Just so they could keep serving customers. The kitchen never stops. If nuclear war broke out, they would still be cooking.
Why you drilled the TOP of the switch? If possilbe drill only the bottom: so there's no way a failing gasket can let water in (no hole, no water). Just entering and exiting from de bottom on boxes installed where they're at risk of getting wet.
You probably meant to say that Black, Red, Blue was the normal sequence, not Black, Blue, Red. We call it the Line side of the switch. Always enjoy your willingness to explain why you are following certain procedures.
question since I dont know anything about electrical work did he just put in the box the wrong way round and then just went with it because it doesnt really matter, or was there some purpose to wiring the bottom conduit into the top and the top one into the bottom?
5:33 - If you use your ‘channellocks’ to tighten that piece of the seal-tite connector to just beyond hand tight you can be sure of a good seal with low chance of vibrating loose. That technique works on metal and plastic boxes. 9:02 - The low voltage three phase colors are Ba, Rd, Bu here in Florida. Not Ba, Bu, Rd. Interesting!
North and South Carolina, Georgia also Black Red Blue for 120/208,240V and Brown Orange Yellow for 277/480V applications. I know as far as the NEC there is no hard and fast rule for the current carrying conductors.
I was talking with some fire men, and they had shut down a popular restaurant when they where getting food for lunch, they drove past it, and there was fire shooting 15 feet above the roof out the exhaust fan. The cooks where inside making a lot of lunch for the crowded and popular place. The Fire Captain found and pulled the plug on the automatic system, while two firemen went to the roof to put out the flames. The auto system did it's job. The place was closed for about 4 days to clean up the fire suppression stuff. Most times it is like 200 pounds of baking soda that is pressurized to about 400 PSI in a huge tank, about a foot in diameter and about 4 feet tall! I would guess the fuseable link will melt around 300 - 350F. By 500F, the grease on the walls of the air ducts would already be ready to catch fire! The rooftop fan was covered in thick grease, not cleaned once a year like required by local fire code. Many fines later, and they could open again, with a inspection by the Fire Department on the one year anniversary and again 1 year later. All of the food that was exposed to the fire stuff is tossed, along with cleaning the fryers and every square inch of the kitchen.. The floors where pretty bad too. I think the Health Department found warm refrigerators and other problems too. The place you where at, probably needs a good air duct cleaning too. Maybe even check the grease trap on the sewer line, they might not know they have one.
The discharge of a fire systems makes a mess. I going to work on a fry station one night. I removed the bottle in the cabinet so when I cut the cable there would be no mess. Well, the Ansul cabinets were not marked correct and there was a mess. The chemical got to the bottom of a closed tool box. That stuff gets into every nook and crook and cranny.
Most of these companies only care about their employees when they cost them money. If they can get away with them cooking in poor conditions, they'll do it. If someone dies or gets injured, they'll pass the buck to the employee and fight tooth and nail to not pay them.
Plastic or specifically pvc is very common in the rest of the world for electrical. Cheap to manufacture and doesn't rust and corrode outside to the degree that metal does.
I would have installed a weather proof medal disconnect with fuses especially if you need to open the exhaust for servicing ?? Plastic is going to break again Plastic is a good idea if it’s in a shade ??
Hey mate, just a tip,when you install a new unit of any kind cover the one line diagram and troubleshooting guide with clear book contact, that way it's covered forever and you can just wipe it down with a cloth and it will always be there.😉⚡
This may be a dumb question: Why connect the wires which come into the bottom of the case to the top of the switch and the wires coming into the top of the case to the bottom of the switch? Switches aren't polarized so it should make no difference. So, why not just connect the wires to the set of terminals closest to where the wires enter the case? It looks to me as if the the pointy end of the know is 180 degrees away from pointing to the on and off indicators. Should that be rotated to match the markings on the case?
I'm realy not a expert but was thinking. Would it be wise to assume this switch will be watered some day to cause of the "opening" for the cables at the top? Maybe add a additional hole at the bottom would help to get rid of moisture on the new switch or is it a problem cause of dusk ❔
So how do you communicate the importance of stopping the kitchen effectively and quickly? Does something like "Stop cooking right now because you're likely to set off fire suppression and if that happens, you're down for a week." register with a manager? How much of that 'stupid' comes from an operations manual handed down by Corporate vs from individual tired or inexperienced managers?
In Australia we twist the conductor strands before terminating into any terminals. it helps individual strands from breaking. Better would be crimp ferrules as well of course. Bottom entry of conduits as well.....
If those fire suppression systems use the same powder as you get in extinguishers, that would have bin a sight to see. And hell to clean, that powder travels everywhere. Their kitchen AC might also need a good cleaning now, I guess it sucked up lots of grease in those 2.5hours
Kitchen fire systems are NOT dry chemical, their supposed to be wet chemical. Dry chemical was phased out in 1996 when cooking with vegetable oils. Dry chemical was used with animal fat oils.
Question: Why is the power coming into the switch from the bottom going to the top connectors of the switch, and the power going out to the motor at the top coming from the bottom connectors of the switch? Seems to be like it would be more logical to connect the bottom cable to the bottom of the switch, and the top cable to the top of the switch? Is there a reason it's all rotated 180 degrees?
Is the fuse on three phase causing single phasing a cause of compressor burn out? Do you apply that rule to compressors? I may have just had an epiphany
Point of interest . How hot does it get on that roof in summer period . Does the new switch have a data sheet showing it,s limit on highest temp otherwise you should install a metal switch . Agree about no fuses inside switch . UK
My son was the manager of a restaurant that had 2 inline exhaust fans over the grill. One quit, so he called in a guy to replace it. After the guy left, the cook was complaining about it being smokey in the kitchen. Come to find out, the guy put the fan in upside down. So what the one fan was exhausting, the other was pulling the smoke back down into the kitchen.
Saw some of the other commenters recommending plumbing the electrical fitting from the bottom. It's virtually impossible for water to get in if it has to climb against gravity.
If it was an option, I would have put the switch sideways so the water would not go directly down into the box in the event the conduit connections break again.
Usually it's recommended to have all cables entering from either the side or the bottom, with drip loops to stop any water getting in via the conduit. You can also drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure so that any water that comes in can get out easily.
Haha I can testify that when you set off the fire suppression system, you are not going to be operating for a long time, and it it’s very very expensive for the buisness owner. I accidentally set one off back in the day when I was a cook. One hell of a mess, it even sprayed I to the fryers and caused the fryer oil to bubble over out of the fryer and onto the floor. Lmao it was insane
@@Lewdacris916 lol no, the owner knew it was an honest mistake, but I did spend a few days in there off the clock cleaning up and getting the cooking equipment back in order.
I really like that switch. I’ve seen maybe 3 in the field ever and they were a bit different but same idea. Weren’t as nice so they didn’t catch my attention. Gonna look into those. Also really like the hinge kits. Have not seen those here in FL but would make cleaning so much easier.
every chilis i service has 3 phase breakers for each hood fan...contactors for every one too and every one of them always has broken disconnect switches with water & grease in them...broken seal tight cables and wires exposed....we can only repair the wiring when replacing the motors or entire fan
Would it be cheaper and easier to just put in a 3 phase throw lever disconnect? You got to be safe on those vertical ladders, they had a tech from another company near me , that fell from one in a sprinkler room and fell to his death! Great video 👍🇺🇸
Hey Chris i have question for you. I am new to Hvac going to trade school/ work for it and they said to have as little leak points as you can on your hoses but you have the bendy attachment for your hoses. Does that ever affect your readings, charging, or evac?
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That fire suppressant is no joke, Restaurant managers should know that. Once, I had to yell at a chef on the phone so he could realize the stupidity of him having the cooks cooking while the exhaust fans were down and my coworker was on site investigating the problem.
Try to get a restaurant to stop cooking. Nah, won't work.
Instead, just open the windows.
@@chargehanger Then the whole place burns down, and ... no more restaurant. Then *nobody* is happy. Oh, well, too bad, so sad. Take this shit *seriously* folks - there are no second chances. Especially in as low-margin a business as food service.
@@MrJest2 Just open the windows. Nothing will burn down.
Welcome to Managers. You could tell them it'll burn the building down, but the owner is dumber than them, so they'll press the manager to keep the money flowing. Its ridiculous and sad.
@@richardcranium1776 Another country. You probably should look further than your nose.
I had a hotel main kitchen range exhaust hood with flames rolling out one afternoon and the fusible links had not triggered the ansul. With everyone standing around trying to decide what to do, I immediately went to the main ansul control panel, pulled the safety pin and smashed that like button! It ruined the dinner, but we still had a hotel to work at the next day.
You know where the "like button" lives ,,cool , Swap its whipped cream for mayonnaise , Mr Ballen will be your friend for life..
did anyone try a large rated fire extinguisher first? it may have snuffed it out if not super major, if not hammer the fire suppression system quickly. both would have been costly, one costing far more than the other (but still less than a building/life loss). the old deer in headlights scenario, panic situation and many people freeze up and stare with awe.
I'm more the type that jumps into instant motion, but we all freeze for short periods at times.
just yesterday I managed to catch two lightbulbs someone had placed inside in the middle of a wound up extension cord onto a shelf 7' high overhead. I grabbed the cord and pulled it off the shelf unknowingly. my eyes registered them and I caught both a CFL and incandescent bulb in left hand, with right hand pulling the cord off shelf. more or less a miracle and pure luck 🤣
I worked in a mill once that had a fire and the fusible links did not trip. Turns out some fool had replaced the fusible links with tie wire. The fire marshal damn near exploded he was so mad when he found the tie with. That cost the mill big time I heard.
@@davidhenderson3400 years ago, "standard procedure" after a fire trip would be to solder the two halves of the links back together. depending on the type of solder, that could actually change the link's trip temperature.
@@davidhenderson3400 right, they cannot trip when safety wired open!
I'd not be sure if it was maintenance or a hood/exhaust cleaning crew.
because safeties are for sissies! 🤣🤣
Hearing that they kept cooking while their exhaust fans were down, reminds me of a tidbit of building code from Germany: you need to install solenoid valves into the gas main of kitches (if natural gas is used for the oven etc.) that are interlocked with the exhaust system. If correctly installed and maintained you can not cook if the exhausts are down. It is not necessary for kitchens that run solely on electricity though.
There's also a similar-kind rule for household fireplaces and exhaust systems. You're not allowed to have the exhaust running without having a window open. Otherwise the exhaust will cause an underpressure, pulling air through the chimney into the room. And when the fire is on, all that toxic carbon monoxide will now be in your room.
Pretty interesting how things unsuspectingly may influence each other.
Same here in the UK ... had to replace one the other day, it had quite an interesting calibration routine, 2 current transformers, (for 2 stage fans), you set the upper and lower boundary ratings, if the fan jams, the current goes up, and also trips the gas off, as well as no / low current conditions.
many places have that in USA, but only newer construction places. most are sadly just tied to the fire suppression system and only go off after it trips!
personally, I think they should all have building and duct pressure sensing that alarms and shuts them down far before an issue that can trip fire suppression occurs.
but that may not work in all cases, especially if indoor wood fired grill/ovens and things that stay hot for long periods.
There's very similar building code here in Canada
Older buildings most likely may not have that, but they are mandated in all new construction.
Sometimes you may have to explain the what and why to managers. Telling them to stop cooking, but not telling them what could happen if they don't, may not be clear to the manager. In my line of work, I always explain "stop doing this because this bad thing could happen if you don't". If they choose to not listen afterwards, its all on them.
And 1.5x 2x cost
Sounds good, but after over 30 years in my profession....
No. Some managers will listen, most won't.
I have had the red lockout locks cut off a panel. I've had people walk outside the house to the main shut-off and try to turn it back on - then come back with bolt cutters when they see we've locked it.
I've had situations where I had to post an apprentice in front of the panel (and made sure it was one of our biggest, meanest looking men) and they've gotten into fist-fights with chads who weren't interested in reason.
It's unfortunate, but your reasoning, however well meant, doesn't work with far too many people.
@@ethelryan257 I have never needed to use a lockout tag, but I believe the correct response to someone removing one is to pack up your tools and LEAVE. Don't put anything back together. As soon as the tag is removed you're not supposed to be working there.
Use a voltage detector with audible alarm, and clip it to a power line. The moment it starts beeping, it's time to down tools.
I'm reminding to that doctor story about cleaning one's eyes out with boiled water "look at me when I tell you water that has been boiled and since cooled, not boiling water, do you understand"
I'd rather tell a person that the consequence will be "It will stop working" rather than exactly how to sabotage all of it in a specific way.
Having worked in fast food myself, it’s not surprising at all that the restaurant kept operating with the broken exhaust fans even though you told them not to. I once worked somewhere that had the AC fail on a record high day (like 112F, which is abnormally hot for the PNW). I was in the drive thru, which was essentially a green house attached to the building directly next to all the warmers and a large freezer that was all contained in the drive thru (I.e. the condensing unit was in there too). At one point, it was 125F in the drive thru. Management wouldn’t allow us to open the doors because of health code, and also wouldn’t close the drive thru even though we were about to pass out. They didn’t care, they were home in their AC-ed house. If I wasn’t a dumb teenager who was desperate for the job at the time, I’d have at least closed down the drive thru, if not the entire restaurant. No customers wanted to stay in the building anyway since it was basically cooler outside. I’m glad nobody had any medical issues as a result, but I almost wish someone did because it would have served the management right to get stuck with the expenses and lawsuits related to it.
Restaurant management, particularly franchised restaurants that have managers with no ownership of the restaurant, care only about money. The employees are basically just slaves. I’m sure management of this place didn’t give a second though about the kitchen employees inhaling smoke and oil vapor for hours as long as they didn’t have to shut down the restaurant on their shift.
Same thing with factories .
Place I was in shutdown the exhaust fans permanently .
Glad that factory is now shutdown permanently to .
Chris, your propane danger sign reminds me, we have one on our propane rack at work that reads, "No Smoking Propane" , with no punctuation. Apparently one could smoke anything but the propane. I mentioned this to a coworker, and they said that it's hard to keep propane in a pipe, so it would be hard to smoke it. Another guy said that if one could keep it in a pipe, the fuel would smoke the one lighting it.😁
I was a professional chef for years. Two times in my carrier the exhaust system failed. One thing that you did not bring up is that the kitchen will quickly become over 100F. And then 120F. Any restaurant that would stay open in a situation like that is nuts. Your customer was foolish. An You are a wonderful Professional. I really like this upload :) :) :)
He DID, just used Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.
I'm a chef myself and I had to work in a kitchen without working fans once. I told the manager/boss that I'm out when he's not fixing these fans. It's been a room temperature of 43°C (in the coldest area / in the plating area at the front it's been 52°C) - way too high for any human being to be in there for at least 8 hours... he called the fan company right there and the next day they were there to tell the boss that he needs everything replaced because it's been so old, there are no spare parts available. This place was closed for a week "due to important renovations" and after that we had a maximum of 34°C in that kitchen - way better and for a kitchen these temperatures are normal.
Different subject, but I had a customer say the unit was dripping water through the ceiling, it was inside the attic. I told her to turn it off and it would be a couple of days before I can get there. When I got the entire sheetrock ceiling had fallen inside the living room. And it was still running dripping water.
Nothing on Sunday like watching someone else work over tea. 😜 Love the lessons!
PS 10:50 is why I bought a bump cap when I saw one. Saved me from sharp metal a couple times at least.
I always say, there's nothing more popular than watching other people work.
I imagine that the reason they ignored you when you told them to stop cooking is because their manager told them to. Every minute that the employees aren't working and feeding customers is lost money for these guys. A lot of managers with little to no integrity often place profits over safety or even common sense, which tends to lead to a lot of accidents in workplace environments.
Then again, this is just me thinking this and I can be entirely wrong.
You're not wrong. I've seen it time and time again.
Well, I won’t equate working at TacoBell to working in an actual kitchen. Though it sounds like a similar approach to operating a business/kitchen.
Your not wrong I worked in a kitchen years ago that used both electric and gas, the fans went down and the manager told us to keep working even though I could smell gas, I walked out of the job that day but a few weeks later there was a kitchen fire, yep the gas leak got worse and he did nothing about it. Was glad I walked of the job, no job is worth me getting injured ever.
Capitalism kills, that's my new saying. It's amazing how many situations it applys to. 😡
You were exactly RIGHT, as I saw it.
On the East Coast if the Ansul system trips it also trips main breakers in the electrical panels that feed the kitchen. It also shuts down the gas main feeding the kitchen.
Good morning. My only critique is I would have replaced the liquid tight and wires going to the motor and run both into the bottom of the disconnect. Enjoy your videos. Be safe out there.
Came to comment this any outdoor stuff I like going into the bottom
Bottom best, side second, and top last.
...you can add a "me too" to the replace the liquid tight and run both in the bottom. Our power company even makes everyone use conduit from the top side of their meter bases because they have had waaaaaaay too many service calls relating to water running down the wire coming into the meter, and shorting them out or catching them on fire.
@@DMWatson-qc6mz Well said, so instead of adding another "me too", I'll offer the required "coming in the bottom" joke.
Your Customers are so Lucky to have you and your Company Employees Supporting their Businesses. 👍🙏
Many of those switches actually have a small punch-out area that you can punch out to let water out. That's useful if there's a high risk of condensation inside the casing.
You didn't watch past 2:15 lol
I am a hood fire suppression system repair specialist. Not only are they lucky as hell it didn't go off, but the potassium acetate that an Ansul system dumps is at least a day if not more of serious clean up. I've had low pro hoods pop a 500° link over a frier multiple times in the same restaurant because they didnt use the fan system.
Personally, I’d have made both holes on the bottom of the switch. Having it on top increases odds of water getting into the box. Coming in from the bottom, we’ll water is not going to go up into the box. I do a lot of wiring at a food factory and so I have to deal with a wash down environment of all the industrial machines. The last thing I want to do in make a hole on the top of a electrical panel or box if I don’t have to. Instead, loop around to the bottom instead. The rare times I do have to come in from the top, I’ll use sealer to better seal. I just had to replace a PLC because of the power coming in from the top. I opened the box with it filled with a bunch of water. Something that came that way. I used sealer on the fitting and replaced the PLC. Replacing the box and changing how the power comes in wasn’t an option.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, some local electrical codes REQUIRE bottom entry with "drip loops" for wet areas - absolutely best practice. But in this case, I understand the stress of getting the fan running for the hot kitchen.
Absolutely. Avoid top and side entry whenever possible. It's a leak just waiting to happen.
Agreed.
When putting stranded wires into a screw down fitting, aren't you supposed to use hollow ferrule over the strands? EDIT: Some screw downs have a flat plate the screw pushes on, not the screw tip right on the wire... If this switch has that feature, then bare strands are OK. I see both kinds of screw downs these days, and keep ferrules in stock for the times they are needed when we are doing electrical work. It would be educational for the viewers if you could cover this detail.
We also use dielectric grease, smear it all over the bare wire before insertion, that produces a moisture and oxygen barrier to keep corrosion next to zero over the passing of time. New switch looks great! END EDIT
Good demonstration with the rope. I've watched a lot of guys working on cranes trying to carry crap up in one hand while climbing ladders.
I have learned from some old electricians to always try to pull the wires from the underside of the disconnect. This way there is less chance of water entering the box. Also, European style outdoor breakerbox can be used with a breaker as a disconnect switch. This way there is a protected disconnect. And it will be like each fan is on a seperate circuit.
Gb makes lock nut wrenches! They work quite well,$20 for a set! Thx for the video
In case you dont know. I had a technician read the manual for the disconnect switch (here they are called safety switches) and there is a small hole, ment as a water drain.
Though it wont be safe from a short, it shouldent allow the water to stay inside and create a short on the buttom. also it keeps the IP rating
Grease can be cleant off quickly with pure ethanol. You can get it in home supply shops as "bio ethanol" or fireplace fuel
Having a conduit entering a water tight box on the top just seems wrong. Seems it would be better if all the wiring enters the box from the bottom or, at least, on the sides.
Yes, it seems he could have easily made that existing conduit go in on the side. I would have also drilled a tiny hole in the bottom to let any potential moisture buildup have a way of escaping and not slowly pooling.
But it has a seal on it
@@Blasterxp so did the old box.
I try and watch all the stuff you post! Just when you think you know it all you can always grow while watching another pro do his thing! I really appreciate you taking the time to create these videos for everyone!
When I was in high school I worked at a restaurant where the exhaust fans went down and they kept cooking. The fire sprinkler went off and flooded their kitchen. The restaurant went from nearly full to nearly empty over the course of 10 minutes once the fire alarm started going off (there was never a fire, so we didn't evacuate, but people understandably get antsy when an alarm is blaring). It took them a few days to clean up the mess and get the kitchen fully working again.
Code required fused disconnects in Michigan for years. Most Rooftop units with any age has them. Your point about Phasing is well received and you see it occur all the time round here on poorly maintained equipment.
Interesting. Is there a way to appeal code? Most stuff I do doesn't have serious codes around it so I'm not familiar with the codes and keeping up to date with them.
@@AKStorm49 Could have been the Unwritten Code that the AJHs cite all the time in Lansing Michigan. It is not common anymore but was done up until 2000's round here. The inspectors do what they can to harass the small Non-Unions and give the Union Contracts slick pass.
@@LongTrout Why am I not surprised by the difference in treatment between the two?
@@AKStorm49 I was recently ordered by City of Lansing to hire a plumber and pull plumbing permit to install condensate drain on commercial mini-split going into sump crock and being pumped on the law. I even showed them the manual whereas the Manufacture said specifically only licensed installers are allowed to install the piping networks on their HVAC equipment. It did not matter.
Actually - he was supposed install the overload protection at the time of repair, in the same enclosure possibly. Overload would have taken care of possible single phasing. Also every motor branch supposed to have separate short circuit and ground fault protection ( fuses or breakers).
In my opinion this wiring is in violation of the NEC, and that building doesn’t look that old.
when you mount conduits to boxes, that are mounted outside, never run them through the top... Water WILL find its way in... ALWAYS!
Go to the bottom and drill a small hole on the bottom as a emergency drain! And check, if the products are UV resistant. If not, the plastic will get hard and crack.
And i dont know, how you handle this in america... but we in germany clamp on core end sleeves on flexible wires.
That’s a slick looking switch. I’m not a big fan of the plastic enclosure though, but I’m sure it’ll last a while
My dad accidentally tripped the fire suppression system in a Coney Island restaurant a friend of his owned by accidentally cutting a cable that activated it. Fortunately it occurred while the place was undergoing renovation before opening.
Many Fire suspression systems have a "dead-man" switch type circuit. If any part is damaged , cut, broken, etc. they go off. Can be very important to shut off the system , before you unplug or replace any part of it. I know cases where people disconnect one sensor to replace it, and POOF! Baby powder everywhere. LOL Actaully it is some type of Halon. But it defintely makes a mess and coats everything, and is hard to clean up, much like baby powder. It kinda sticks.
I've had those ansul fuseable links fail after I've told them to shut it down while I work. Depending on the hood application the links can be anywhere from 160-460 they make higher for solid fuel and pizza oven hoods.
Whenever we are doing hood repairs we have in the quote that customer agrees to not have cook line in operation during repairs just to cover ourselves for when they ignore our verbal warning not to cook. That chemical suppression stuff is brutal and you're guaranteed to be closed several days at minimum if it goes off. That's why we push the more high end hood fire suppression system that uses a good grade degreaser called a surfactant and a ton of water to put out kitchen fires. If it goes off you can wipe everything down, refill the surfactant reservoir and get back to cooking within hours.
Water is NOT USED in suppression systems unless you have an Ansul Piranha system installed, which the water is used to flush out the piping, vent hood, and appliances due to the high alkyiline content of the chemical fluid.
@@richardroy4764 th-cam.com/video/u23YppwvAFU/w-d-xo.html
Jeff what happens when the power goes out, can core still dispense ??
@@HVACRVIDEOS yes it has battery back up for the entire controls that can last several hours (12 to 16) the batteries keep charged and recharge when normal power is applied. It's one of the things we have to check when doing a commissioning
@@richardroy4764water is used in CORE Systems for Captive-Aire.
6:15 I highly suggest using ferrules. It not only improves your contact and its lifetime but it also penetrates oxide layers on old cables when you crimp it
8:32 Ferrules also come with a plastic cone at the end so it's basically physically impossible to pinch the insulation. I have tried to pinch the cone on purpose just to see if I can but it just pulls the end back in place.
8:39 Ferrules also fix that. At this point they come out cheaper than your labour for not using them lol
Agreed. Crimped connector are always best for stranded...
I also would've re-made the whip for the motor so that both ends came on bottom of box to prevent future issues... Can't get water in from the bottom.
Ferrals most of the time are mandatory for fine strand wire
For some reason a lot of guys here in the US just act like ferrules don't exist. Lol
@@crabmansteve6844 as an German electrician us wireing scares me
@@crabmansteve6844 true story.
good evening.
When you were installing the new switch, is it not up to code to make both wires to run to the box from bottom? Let's say left would be incoming power, right would be feeding the fan.
I.E. to eliminate possibility of making gates for rain from up the box
Two things.#1 The standardized NEC Color code for 208v~ is 1-black 2-red 3-blue. And
Brown, orange, yellow for 480v~ and obviously the feed coming from the power source was counter clockwise, that's why you had to reverse it in the switch.
#2 you should always try to put line side voltage to the TOP of all switches and disconnects. Although it doesn't matter for some types of switches, it does for disconnects. And it's just good practice.
As an electrician from Germany i find it crazy that you are not using ferrules. It would prevent the ends to flare up (no jacked up cable ends) + a better electrical more secure connection. And the additional costs are minimal. You can get decent crimp tools (hexagonal crimp) for a fair price (does not have to be a 150-200$ AMP, Knipex, Weidmüller one).
I find it crazier hes not even twisting his wire ends. Ferrules cause more fires than you think due to improperly crimping them. We only use them on flexible cables, never on fixed wiring.
@@mattyb7736 I am an Prozessleitelektroniker for more than 20 years and never had any problems with Ferrules. Simply use a decent crimping tool.
have been watching your vids for years!!!!!your so on top of your game!!!! thanks for posting !!!!!!!
I once electrically connected a gas security system for a 20 square meter Asian kitchen. No working exhaust air (differential pressure switch) no gas to cook. 3 8kW gas burners.
Hello, In Australia we use a lot of the plastic style isolation switches. I would have put both cables into the box from the bottom, much better form maintaining IP66 keep in mind 100mm or 4in of rain per day is the norm in summer. The ansul fire wire I have seen comes in a few different fuse temps, 350deg C is the most common but will change to meet the fire risk level determined by the fire risk assessment and the building code.
Cant fix stupid.....if there ever was a more accurate statement....for some people....im not aware of it. Money seems to be put above all else and common sense goes right out the window.
Great message Chris.
Actually, you can. It just requires a .50" calibre injection...
USA knife switch style isolators/switches are much the same as what we used in Australia in the 1930's; over here top entry into an isolator is banned due to the possibility of water ingress. Plastic rotary isolators are far better than the crap metal ones I see in most US videos
For those in the UK wanting a bootlace ferrule crimping tool and crimps, LIDL have had them in recently, for £20 you get a 4 jaw ratchet crimper and a decent amount of different sizes of insulated crimps. Seems decent quality and the supplied crimps go to decent sizes.
3:30 Interesting, did you know that Home Depot sells a Milwaukee Impact Unibit so you can make a hole with your impact drill? It’s a little expensive but a good impact drill attachment.
Questions : Why go from motor to top oof the switch box? Why not the side of box? Idt refusing potential for woter ingres.
You mention single phase running problems a lot. Now I'm curious, here in Europe we have devices that can monitor the phases, and will trip if one or multiple have problems. Therefore, you can't have those single phase running problems and it will give protection to high peak voltages.
Don't you have those in the US? Or are they too expensive to install as a prevention method?
The 3-phase switch you installed looks like a Europe version indeed. We're not allowed to use metal boxes or conduits by code. This is to prevent it from becoming electrically charged, if something in it becomes damaged and touching the box or conduit.
They do exist. I'm not sure why they aren't more ubiquitous.
@@mrlescure because every mfg is trying to make a cheaper product so they can sell more. Salesmen make money selling things. Phase monitors protect equipment. Almost all the equipment i work on has phase monitors.
Phase monitors are little bit pricey, but regular overload protection would have taken care of the single phasing problem.
I have no idea why HVAC and Ventilation industry allowed to get away with this crap! Everywhere else, code by NEC about overload protection and motor branches - is strictly enforced!
They have them. In my area, the icm401 is a low cost phase protection system for hvac control. It's $30-$40 and basically kills control voltage if there's a phase loss or surge.
@@jacobfoxworth And when doing a lot of pump & control work for agriculture, phase reversals upstream in the boondocks are not as rare as we would like them to be, and the phase protection relay (s) will drop out the starter coil voltage when they sense various line anomalies. Detection of unbalanced phase voltages, with adjustable high and low voltage limits, is available in some protection relays.
I would order Dayton brand from Grainger, which were identical to the same relay with Square D branding, at a third of the cost. A full featured phase protection relay could be had for around $40 and up. (Time frame = 1980s - 2010 ish.)
Another popular brand of these was TimeMark, coming in at about the price ranges, and with a no questions asked, lifetime replacement warranty, requiring only the registration of a relay's serial number and returning the dead unit (although) they did not always require a return.
Justifying the absence of these relays because of their added cost, versus the damage frequently seen in a motor control installation lacking them is a fool's wet dream at best.
I can just imagine the many jobs that need to be done since Covid. Even though there was restaurants closed for a time I suspect the maintenance was not maintained as regular as before.
Some of the older ansul units are manually activated that I've been around and the fusible links usually have a color coding for the temperature that they will melt out and set off the unit
Thanks brother. I learn so much from your content
I have been in the Electrical / Electronics field for decades, and this switch through me with it's power in on the botom and power out on the top. What I take away from this is to check the markings on every switch. Granted I have never installed a 3 phase switch before, but I have now been edified and will look at the markings on every switch. My brain tells me that electrically it shouldn't matter, but I'm sure there is a reason, probably code if I don't miss my guess.
If you are installing these fans I think it would be worth it to take some tape, like painter's tape, and cover the label with the tape. That way, after they have been there that long, you could just peel the tape off and have a clean label to get information off of in the future.
If you do this, just make sure there isn’t adhesive right against the labels, because even painters tape sticks pretty aggressively after 6 months, let alone 2-3 years down the road. I’ve tried removing painters tape off fire tags on doors and pulled the printed layer of the sticker off with it.
@@MultiPureEnergy
Good to know. Maybe put a piece of plastic over the label and then tape it down. Or maybe tape some tape the size of the label to a bigger square of tape then tape the non-sticky side of the tape down so it covers the label.
There is a "low tack" version of Kapton tape that's intended for PCB rework that's really good for applications like this - it uses an acrylic adhesive that remains easy to remove even when it's been subjected to sustained heat.
Yeah it's called uv resistant clear tape.
I'm a night manager at a grocery store. One of the service deli clerks managed to start a fire in the fryer by turning it on before all the oil was in place, and somehow managed to bypass the safeguards. As the deli manager put it, the fryer was smarter than the employee. Fortunately we use pressure fryers so the fire was extinguished by closing the lid, but I don't think they believed me about how damn lucky they were that the fire suppression didn't deploy. We've already had issues from the fire marshall including the nozzles not being centered over the vats. But from what you're saying recovering from fire suppression is a bigger issue than I realized.
Youre the best tech ever Chris !
I learn so much from you as a hvac company owner also in canada. ! Never give up the good work 🙌🏻🔥🔥
I was going to ask why would it matter if they didn't stop cooking but you answered it don't know if I would install a automatic fire suppression system if I could get away with it
You should change conduit if it was short and attached to the bottom of the disconnect switch
10:11 so shacky thumb.
Love your videos!
greetings from Poland!
When you install a redundant fused disconnect like that one on the second fan you looked at, can you replace the fuses with a bus bar or otherwise jumper the terminals, or is that a huge no-no?
rhkips, Perhaps for testing purposes only, under very controlled conditions, like direct supervision of a qualified electrician and/or engineer, a trained safety observer, using proper PPE, the application of common sense, and for a defined purpose and with time of the connection limited to absolute minimums. Never when said links might be left unattended. Basically yes, a very bad idea, but doable if necessary when all provisions for safely doing it are undertaken. Certain kinds of testing are necessary to ensure the long term safe and efficient operation of electrical equipment. Take nothing for granted.
I would always try and fit both conduits to the bottom of an isolation switch reduces water ingress greatly
I will discuss this on my Livestream this evening 3/13/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) on TH-cam come over and check it out th-cam.com/users/liveKXz7UI5-SZM
Been through that circus when the Fire Suppression system gets activated. It was a manual pull but still the entire restaurant (this was a diner) gets the powder on everything to one extent or another. We had to basically remove all movable furniture and soup & hot water clean it all, the ceiling, walls, floor scrubbed and waxed (waxed to be sure that any suppressant residue was not able to get airborne. Everything in the reach-ins had to be tossed as per Health Regs. It was considered contaminated and unsafe for sale and consumption. Then the coolers all needed to be scrubbed and swabbed to be sure no suppressant residue was in the trackways for the doors. Not even counting the inspection time for every one that had to make one, cleanup itself took days. The diner was closed for close to a week and that was considered to be fast.
ktcd 1172, Nice that the cleanup area was in a restaurant, having soup & water available there for scrubbing would be a sweet convenience, (lol)
those conduit nuts are fairly soft metal. I never worry about which screwdriver I'm using, as long as it's a flat head. they wont damage the hardened steel of the screw driver
Wouldn't mounting those boxes horizontally prevent any chance of water getting in? I don't do HVAC work, just weirdly interested in your videos.
It would help quite a bit, even with that new plastic box, even drilling the hole on the side of that box for the fan wiring to go through, rather than going through the top again would prevent a possible repeat of this problem....people that go up and change HVAC filters, and other regular work on the roofs are very hard on everything, they pull on stuff, lean on stuff, etc. that's most likely how that knock out got broke in the first place, someone up there with a hose probably washing out filters or something of that nature, and got the hose wrapped around it other otherwise and just yanked on the hose, or tossed the hose around and busted that knock out, but of course we know that they'd never fess up to it LOL.
Best way to make entry into such boxes is from below. Unless there is really high flood - water just has no chance to get in.
Love the Simpson 260 on the set behind you my favorite tool to check armatures.
I was at this restaurant which had the toilets above the kitchen. Multiple floors. And someone left a tap running. It overflowed and flooded the kitchen through the roof. And staff just kept working with water dripping everywhere, from the toilets. Just so they could keep serving customers. The kitchen never stops. If nuclear war broke out, they would still be cooking.
🤣 I wish the fire suppression would have dumped. Maybe then they'd learn the hard way to listen when they're told to shut it down.
Why you drilled the TOP of the switch? If possilbe drill only the bottom: so there's no way a failing gasket can let water in (no hole, no water). Just entering and exiting from de bottom on boxes installed where they're at risk of getting wet.
The managers need a big picture outlook too!
You probably meant to say that Black, Red, Blue was the normal sequence, not Black, Blue, Red. We call it the Line side of the switch. Always enjoy your willingness to explain why you are following certain procedures.
question since I dont know anything about electrical work
did he just put in the box the wrong way round and then just went with it because it doesnt really matter, or was there some purpose to wiring the bottom conduit into the top and the top one into the bottom?
5:33 - If you use your ‘channellocks’ to tighten that piece of the seal-tite connector to just beyond hand tight you can be sure of a good seal with low chance of vibrating loose. That technique works on metal and plastic boxes.
9:02 - The low voltage three phase colors are Ba, Rd, Bu here in Florida. Not Ba, Bu, Rd. Interesting!
North and South Carolina, Georgia also Black Red Blue for 120/208,240V and Brown Orange Yellow for 277/480V applications. I know as far as the NEC there is no hard and fast rule for the current carrying conductors.
I was talking with some fire men, and they had shut down a popular restaurant when they where getting food for lunch, they drove past it, and there was fire shooting 15 feet above the roof out the exhaust fan. The cooks where inside making a lot of lunch for the crowded and popular place. The Fire Captain found and pulled the plug on the automatic system, while two firemen went to the roof to put out the flames. The auto system did it's job. The place was closed for about 4 days to clean up the fire suppression stuff. Most times it is like 200 pounds of baking soda that is pressurized to about 400 PSI in a huge tank, about a foot in diameter and about 4 feet tall! I would guess the fuseable link will melt around 300 - 350F. By 500F, the grease on the walls of the air ducts would already be ready to catch fire!
The rooftop fan was covered in thick grease, not cleaned once a year like required by local fire code. Many fines later, and they could open again, with a inspection by the Fire Department on the one year anniversary and again 1 year later.
All of the food that was exposed to the fire stuff is tossed, along with cleaning the fryers and every square inch of the kitchen.. The floors where pretty bad too. I think the Health Department found warm refrigerators and other problems too.
The place you where at, probably needs a good air duct cleaning too. Maybe even check the grease trap on the sewer line, they might not know they have one.
Why don't you crimp the wires?
Multi-core cables should generally be crimped.
Or is that not mandatory in the US?
The discharge of a fire systems makes a mess. I going to work on a fry station one night. I removed the bottle in the cabinet so when I cut the cable there would be no mess. Well, the Ansul cabinets were not marked correct and there was a mess. The chemical got to the bottom of a closed tool box. That stuff gets into every nook and crook and cranny.
Most of these companies only care about their employees when they cost them money. If they can get away with them cooking in poor conditions, they'll do it. If someone dies or gets injured, they'll pass the buck to the employee and fight tooth and nail to not pay them.
Plastic or specifically pvc is very common in the rest of the world for electrical. Cheap to manufacture and doesn't rust and corrode outside to the degree that metal does.
I would have installed a weather proof medal disconnect with fuses especially if you need to open the exhaust for servicing ??
Plastic is going to break again
Plastic is a good idea if it’s in a shade ??
You need to pick up some of the hex bit hole saws!! Impact all the way
100 % saves so much time
Hey mate, just a tip,when you install a new unit of any kind cover the one line diagram and troubleshooting guide with clear book contact, that way it's covered forever and you can just wipe it down with a cloth and it will always be there.😉⚡
This may be a dumb question: Why connect the wires which come into the bottom of the case to the top of the switch and the wires coming into the top of the case to the bottom of the switch? Switches aren't polarized so it should make no difference. So, why not just connect the wires to the set of terminals closest to where the wires enter the case?
It looks to me as if the the pointy end of the know is 180 degrees away from pointing to the on and off indicators. Should that be rotated to match the markings on the case?
I'm realy not a expert but was thinking. Would it be wise to assume this switch will be watered some day to cause of the "opening" for the cables at the top? Maybe add a additional hole at the bottom would help to get rid of moisture on the new switch or is it a problem cause of dusk ❔
So how do you communicate the importance of stopping the kitchen effectively and quickly? Does something like "Stop cooking right now because you're likely to set off fire suppression and if that happens, you're down for a week." register with a manager? How much of that 'stupid' comes from an operations manual handed down by Corporate vs from individual tired or inexperienced managers?
In Australia we twist the conductor strands before terminating into any terminals. it helps individual strands from breaking. Better would be crimp ferrules as well of course. Bottom entry of conduits as well.....
I will discuss this on my Livestream this evening 3/13/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) on TH-cam come over and check it out th-cam.com/users/liveKXz7UI5-SZM
Good work. That switch looks nice.
Very interesting on the fire suppression info etc. Thanks Chris.
Don't you drill 3-4mm drain holes in your IP rated switches to stop condensation buildup?
If those fire suppression systems use the same powder as you get in extinguishers, that would have bin a sight to see.
And hell to clean, that powder travels everywhere.
Their kitchen AC might also need a good cleaning now, I guess it sucked up lots of grease in those 2.5hours
Kitchen fire systems are NOT dry chemical, their supposed to be wet chemical. Dry chemical was phased out in 1996 when cooking with vegetable oils. Dry chemical was used with animal fat oils.
@@richardroy4764 Ah ok, thanks for the info.
I imagine you still get a mess but probably not the dust storm
Question: Why is the power coming into the switch from the bottom going to the top connectors of the switch, and the power going out to the motor at the top coming from the bottom connectors of the switch? Seems to be like it would be more logical to connect the bottom cable to the bottom of the switch, and the top cable to the top of the switch? Is there a reason it's all rotated 180 degrees?
Is the fuse on three phase causing single phasing a cause of compressor burn out? Do you apply that rule to compressors? I may have just had an epiphany
I like the 1 arm Bandits. Reminds me of my trip to Vegas.
Point of interest . How hot does it get on that roof in summer period . Does the new switch have a data sheet showing it,s limit on highest temp otherwise you should install a metal switch . Agree about no fuses inside switch . UK
My son was the manager of a restaurant that had 2 inline exhaust fans over the grill. One quit, so he called in a guy to replace it. After the guy left, the cook was complaining about it being smokey in the kitchen. Come to find out, the guy put the fan in upside down. So what the one fan was exhausting, the other was pulling the smoke back down into the kitchen.
Great vid and great info ... Thx for posting Bud ...
Saw some of the other commenters recommending plumbing the electrical fitting from the bottom. It's virtually impossible for water to get in if it has to climb against gravity.
If it was an option, I would have put the switch sideways so the water would not go directly down into the box in the event the conduit connections break again.
Usually it's recommended to have all cables entering from either the side or the bottom, with drip loops to stop any water getting in via the conduit. You can also drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure so that any water that comes in can get out easily.
Haha I can testify that when you set off the fire suppression system, you are not going to be operating for a long time, and it it’s very very expensive for the buisness owner. I accidentally set one off back in the day when I was a cook. One hell of a mess, it even sprayed I to the fryers and caused the fryer oil to bubble over out of the fryer and onto the floor. Lmao it was insane
gezus did you get any penalty for that?
@@Lewdacris916 lol no, the owner knew it was an honest mistake, but I did spend a few days in there off the clock cleaning up and getting the cooking equipment back in order.
You keep doing what you do and you shouldn’t have to explain to all the keyboard safety experts out there…. You do amazing work
I really like that switch. I’ve seen maybe 3 in the field ever and they were a bit different but same idea. Weren’t as nice so they didn’t catch my attention. Gonna look into those. Also really like the hinge kits. Have not seen those here in FL but would make cleaning so much easier.
every chilis i service has 3 phase breakers for each hood fan...contactors for every one too and every one of them always has broken disconnect switches with water & grease in them...broken seal tight cables and wires exposed....we can only repair the wiring when replacing the motors or entire fan
Would it be cheaper and easier to just put in a 3 phase throw lever disconnect? You got to be safe on those vertical ladders, they had a tech from another company near me , that fell from one in a sprinkler room and fell to his death! Great video 👍🇺🇸
I will discuss this on my Livestream this evening 3/20/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) over on TH-cam come over and check it out th-cam.com/users/livevKpJKA-Y51U
Thanks for the tighten, loosen, tighten.
Hey Chris i have question for you. I am new to Hvac going to trade school/ work for it and they said to have as little leak points as you can on your hoses but you have the bendy attachment for your hoses. Does that ever affect your readings, charging, or evac?
Great switches, but in your high UV area I suspect these will turn brittle in a few years. I'd rather use these indoor. What's your take?
The original one was there from 2002 so that's a pretty good run and the original was plastic.... let's see how long this one lasts
@@HVACRVIDEOS Oh God, what happen to my can of WD 40.
Oh my God, what happen to my can of WD 40 ?
Very unlikely that it would ever occur, but the grounding wire should have enough slack in it so that it will be the last one pulled out.